General Differences Between a 2M and a CB?

[Boston Mangler]

ok guys, take it easy on my ignorance on this

what are the differences between the 2m radios and the CB's?

i "thought" 2m's were essentially CB's just much more powerful and required a HAM license.

but now i see people installing CB's AND 2M radios in their rigs. why is that? are the 2m's programmable so you can enter the CB stations?

are 2m radios hams?

thanks

[UncleChris]

ok guys, take it easy on my ignorance on this

what are the differences between the 2m radios and the CB's?

i "thought" 2m's were essentially CB's just much more powerful and required a HAM license.

but now i see people installing CB's AND 2M radios in their rigs. why is that? are the 2m's programmable so you can enter the CB stations?

are 2m radios hams?

thanks

Good question Mangler, here it goes;

CBs do not require a license, Ham radions(2m, otherwise known as VHF, do). Although it is a fairly straightforward 35 question multiple guess.

CBs operate around the 11m wavelength,Ham radios operate on others(HF 160-6m,vhf 2m,uhf 70cn)

CBs are limited to 4 watts, Ham radio have much higher limits. The one in my truck has 50 Watts.

CBs operate point-to-point, VHF/UHF can operate through a repeater which will take your signal, boost it and retransmit.

Most 4 wheelers tend to have cb, so I have a cb in my rig to talk to them while wheeling. Also have a handheld(cb and 2m) to use while spotting or checking out a trail on foot

I prefer to use the VHF/UHF bands if others in my group have that capability.
VHF/UHF generally has much longer range with a ham rig.

I alos have my 2m radio setup to broadcast my position and receive other position reports while on the trail.

It is also possible to hook a vhf/uhf rig up to a computer and send network packets to a repeater that has a internet link.

Overall, the vhf/uhf radio is much more versatile, BUT I keep a cb around because more of the people that I wheel with have them,

[pskhaat]

One more note in that it violates FCC reg's to have a radio that operates in CB freq's that also transmit in other freq's; that's why you don't see any CB/FRS combination radios (which would be a useful thing).

If you want to look at UHF communication without testing requirements (just pay a fee), you can examine GMRS http://www.provide.net/~prsg/wi-gmrs.htm . I'm actually very suprise most non-Ham off-road enthusiasts don't use this.

[Steve Curren]

If I may also ask a question I would like to. Does the 2 meter radio use any more power than a CB and what special installation is there if any?
Thanks

[UncleChris]

If I may also ask a question I would like to. Does the 2 meter radio use any more power than a CB and what special installation is there if any?
Thanks

CBs are limited to 4 Watts. VHF/UHF have a much higher limit.

My Kenwood D700A puts out 50W on VHF.

Kenwood recommends a install wired direct to the battery, although Adam has his connected through a distribution unit.

Since it is drawing more current, you just need thicker wiring.

[Steve Curren]

So it is just hooked up in the same general manner as a CB but with a heavier wire?
Thanks muchly.

[asteffes]

Correct. Most of your basic 2M/440MHz ham transceivers will draw 10-12 amps when using maximum output power. They'll use considerably less when transmitting on the lower, 5-15 watt, settings. However, you want a little headroom to be safe, so I suggest 12 gauge wire as the optimal choice to hook up any radio. It is flexible enough to route through the cab, but heavy enough to not introduce excessive voltage drop between battery and radio. It should also support any new radios you may switch to in the forseeable future (say, from a CB to a dual-band ham rig, or from a dual-band to an all-band HF model.)

A distribution block is fine, too, if you have other things to power from the battery, and saves you future work routing more wires. It also makes for a very clean positive battery terminal. In that case, run 8, 10 or 12 gauge wire from the positive battery terminal to the block and 12 gauge wire from the block to the radio. Wire the block's ground to a local chassis ground near the block.

I use my distribution block to power my Kenwood TM-D700 and Garmin GPS. Each device has its own fuse on the block, and I have four fused terminals left for future needs. The entire circuit is protected by a heavier fuse on the main line near the battery. What you really do *not* want to do is attempt to power your ham or CB radio from another circuit already in the truck. Either radio will draw enough current to damage most of the smaller gauge wiring in the truck. Similarly, a cigarette plug will introduce lots of noise and possibly damage the wiring. Go direct to the battery, or wire up a dedicated line to a dist block and take power from the block.

[Steve Curren]

Thanks, with all this knowledge the next thing is to get licensed to own and operate a 2 meter radio. I currently use the family radio with the people I go out with but I would like to get a better radio just in case I get to go out with the big boys.
Thanks again,
Steve

[asteffes]

The ARRL book "Now You're Talking!" is a great study aid. Spend a few hours with it and you should have no trouble passing the Technician Class exam. Then get yourself an HT or a real mobile rig and you're set.

[Steve Curren]

Once again I thank you, I will go to the site right now and order the book.
Steve

[blaze one]

What is the cost of a 2m radio anyways? , are there certain options that we should look out for when choosing a 2m suitable for off road use ?

[Jonathan Hanson]

I've just been immersed in this question, since I recently bought a two-meter radio and installed it on a shelf across the top of my front roll cage. I'm mostly through the "Now You're Talking" book and will be taking the test soon. The book is excellent.

I bought an Icom IC 2200H for a bit less than $200 locally. I could have saved $20 or so by ordering over the web but I wanted to give the great little local ham shop my business. The Icom is a mil-spec unit, which among other things in this case means it doesn't need a cooling fan; the entire body is a heat-radiating unit. The Yaesu FT 28800M is very similar in specs and price. Each is extremely rugged.

The Icom came with a high-quality 10-gauge wiring harness which I ran into my engine compartment to the auxiliary fuse block there. The harness has two inline fuses as well. Hookup was simple. I'm still deciding where to mount the antenna. I have a dedicated bracket on my rear rack that would be perfect, but only about ten inches of the antenna would extend above the roof, and I'm not sure how much that would limit my range when transmitting to the front. Any advice from you users?

[asteffes]

What is the cost of a 2m radio anyways? , are there certain options that we should look out for when choosing a 2m suitable for off road use ?

You really don't need anything special. Yaesu and Icom have some dedicated 2M radios, any of which is a fine choice. I would choose mainly based on how much you like the UI and button size and arrangement of each particular unit. Some folks just sorta like one over the other. Whatever floats your boat. Kenwood makes excellent dual-banders.

If you want a little more versatility, get a dual-band radio so you have access to repeaters on the 440MHz (70cm) band. They cost a bit more but if you know you have some good 440 repeaters in the areas you visit, it's worth considering. Again, no special features really set one radio apart from the others for most beginners, so your choice is largely a matter of preference. The exception is the Kenwood TM-D700A, which is good for APRS if you think you want to explore that. If you're not sure, don't bother with that model.

[asteffes]

I've just been immersed in this question, since I recently bought a two-meter radio and installed it on a shelf across the top of my front roll cage. I'm mostly through the "Now You're Talking" book and will be taking the test soon. The book is excellent.

I bought an Icom IC 2200H for a bit less than $200 locally. I could have saved $20 or so by ordering over the web but I wanted to give the great little local ham shop my business. The Icom is a mil-spec unit, which among other things in this case means it doesn't need a cooling fan; the entire body is a heat-radiating unit. The Yaesu FT 28800M is very similar in specs and price. Each is extremely rugged.

The Icom came with a high-quality 10-gauge wiring harness which I ran into my engine compartment to the auxiliary fuse block there. The harness has two inline fuses as well. Hookup was simple. I'm still deciding where to mount the antenna. I have a dedicated bracket on my rear rack that would be perfect, but only about ten inches of the antenna would extend above the roof, and I'm not sure how much that would limit my range when transmitting to the front. Any advice from you users?

I wouldn't worry too much about that mounting point. It's always a good idea to borrow an SWR meter to be sure you're not getting too much reflection back into the radio.

[Jonathan Hanson]

Thanks, Adam. I plan to do that.

[BajaTaco]

Jonathan, great news! And a great radio! Glad to hear you are supporting your local biz too. As far as the antenna goes, I agree with asteffes - you could always mount it on the rear and get it tested. Likely that same HAM shop will able to do it for you. There is a device called a "bird meter" (http://www.rwonline.com/reference-room/special-report/rwf_fitch_bird.shtml) that the shop may have, which would be great to test that location for you. If it doesn't work well, then the next "easiest" placement would be the hood channel on the front, if the gap between hood and fender is enough for a bracket to slip through. You might have to make a custom bracket for the 40, but that would keep you from having to drill a hole in the roof and the hood area should provide a decent launching pad for your transmissions. An NMO mount on the roof would probably yield the best performance of any choice. That big roof on the 40 would be excellent for that.

[pskhaat]

An NMO mount on the roof would probably yield the best performance of any choice. That big roof on the 40 would be excellent for that.

Unfotunately though the 40 series roof is non-metal :-O I would also consider a hood mount bracket of some sort...

[asteffes]

Unfotunately though the 40 series roof is non-metal :-O I would also consider a hood mount bracket of some sort...

Ah, yes, the hood mount option sounds like the optimal choice for the 40. However, a roof mount might still work fine - even if the roof isn't metal the rest of the rig is and will provide some ground plane.

[Brian McVickers]

I have bee seeing some nice 2m radios on Ebay for $50-$100. Some are even NIB!

[BajaTaco]

Unfotunately though the 40 series roof is non-metal :-O I would also consider a hood mount bracket of some sort...

:o oh man, I totally forgot about that. Good point ;)

McVick, are those prices the starting price? Or the final price? When I tried to shop eBay for a radio, people would bid ridiculously high for the radios, sometimes more than a new one with a warranty.

[Jonathan Hanson]

Thanks for the location advice, you guys. I'll try the rack mounting point first; if that doesn't work I can always move it.

[Brian McVickers]

:o oh man, I totally forgot about that. Good point ;)

McVick, are those prices the starting price? Or the final price? When I tried to shop eBay for a radio, people would bid ridiculously high for the radios, sometimes more than a new one with a warranty.


Some seem to be reasonable, the catch is not getting cought up in the bidding war! It seems as if many private sellers put their radios up with no reserve and some of the prices stay low. However some people also seem to try and make money off the shipping costs, which bugs me! I think if you go Ebay you are settling for the MFG warranty if there is one at all since you are most likely buying from a private party.

Still looking around though!

[Steve Curren]

How about another question about radios? Can someone please tell me the difference in a 2 meter and a 10 meter radio, I am radio dumb so be kind to me?
Thanks,
Steve

[UncleChris]

How about another question about radios? Can someone please tell me the difference in a 2 meter and a 10 meter radio, I am radio dumb so be kind to me?
Thanks,
Steve

Here is the practical explanation

2m is usable by a technician(entry) class license, and is considered VHF(70cm is UHF.)

10m is usable by a General (second level)Class license and is considered HF.

2m is used by many repeaters as is the 70cm band, and since it is easier to get the license for use, there are more people on these bands.

10m, at times, allows you to use better wave propagation to communicate with other stations at a longer distance. This is generally station to station.

10m is usually not included in VHF/UHF radios(except for the Yaesu FT8900) and will require a much longer antenna for relative performance.
2m is VHF and there are many entry level radios that handle VHF.

Hope that helps!

[Steve Curren]

Chris,
Thanks for the information, I now understand a lot better about the radios and who and why they would use them. Would you reccomend an entry level radio that's a good one and would fit easily into a TJ?
Thanks again,
Steve

[Desertdude]

nice clean easy to use 2M - Yaesu FT2800M

(http://www.aesham.com/display_pages/ft2800m.shtml)

[Steve Curren]

Thanks, I willl see about one today..
Steve

[Steve Curren]

One last question and I think I will have this figured out. I found a Yaesu 2800M on line and I now need to know which antenna for it is best, first off I have a TJ with a tire swing on back. The swing has a mounting place with a hole, would the plane be enough to have the system work properly, the swing is mounted dirtectly to the frame? If not where would you suggest a mount and what type of assembly would it take?
Thank you for your patience and assistance.:bowdown:
Steve

[asteffes]

A metal roof is always the first choice from a purely electronic perspective. It's not always practical for people who frequent areas with lots of low-hanging branches. A magnet mount or the good 'ol drill-a-hole-in-the-roof mount works well. Second choice is probably a hood channel mount, where you have some ground plane from the metal hood. Less invasive attachment is possible, and it's easy to reach the antenna when you decide you want to remove the mast temporarily.

Bumper and rear tire rack mounts tend to be a last resort, as you don't get a good ground plane. Some folks (myself included) use glass-mounts and find they work at least "well enough" for situations where you don't need the ultimate in RF gain. They are easy to install and you don't have to route coax outside the vehicle.

For all but the glass mount style, I would suggest an NMO connector, as many antennae are available for this type of mount. If you ever need to borrow an antenna on a trip because yours broke (or whatever) it's easy to find someone with a spare NMO-style rubber duck to loan you.

[UncleChris]

I believe that they make hood channel mounts for the TJs, but as said previously, if you are using more wattage than a CB there might be a concern, as the wattage will be in-your-face so to speak.

You can mount on the tire swing, but make sure that you have it grounded to the chassis. The mount on the tire swing might not be grounded propery.

You can use a meter to test connectivity between the swing and the chassis. If there is not sufficient ground, you can run a wire from the antenna mount to a ground point on the frame.

[Steve Curren]

Adam and Chris,
Thanks to both of you for the ideas, I will see if I can decide which will work and if I can find a local dealer who is not too far away. I would probably go with the tire swing simply becasue I will take the top off and I would have to find another place to mount it. If I mounted it on the windshield I would run into the trees and bushes problem, if I understand correctly the frame would act as a ground place?
Once again thanks to you smart ones.
Steve

[AndrewP]

I had to reply to these radio threads since I've been immersed in 2m radio since the DV trip in March. I had just a few random thoughts, and Desertdude was there too and can provide prospective.

First-There is no comparison to CB. 2m is clear, long range, and has minimal interference. We were communicating truck to truck 35 miles. CB poops out at about 2 miles and that's with good line of sight.

Power-It draws 10 amps on high power. That's a lot for an automotive circuit. It must have a dedicated, heavy guage, direct wired power supply. If you buy the Yeasu that Desertdude mentioned, it comes with the correct wire. If you make your own, fuse the + and the - lead. Real radio guys will tell you to shield the wiring, but it works fine without. 10 guage is the minimum, and 8 guage wire is better.

Mount-You really shouldn't mount in the dash. The Yaesu 2800 is a big finned heat sink with no fan. It gets warm when transmitting, especially on high power. It needs good air circulation.

Antenna-Real radio guys will tell you this: get a 5/8 wave antenna. In my brief experience the Wilson 2m magnet mount antenna worked great. It's a cheap way to get started. I am currently in progress to improve my antenna system with a rear hatch lip mount, and real Antenna-a Comet SBB25. There are many choices. You will spend as much on a good mount and antenna as you do on the entry level 2m radio if you want the real deal.

Other bands-As soon as you step away from 2m the price goes up quick. None of the bands are all that useful for calling for distant help until you get into HF around 40 meters. To get that, you need a "General" class license and a very expensive radio. It's really the antennas that kill my interest in HF mobile radio. They are expensive, must be tuned each use, and are unforgiving in terms of picking up extraneous noise. ie, do it right, or don't do it. Very $$$.

Grounding-You can't ground too much. The best grounds are made with tinned copper braid. Ground the antenna to the body, the body to the frame and the frame to the engine. Each step improves your SWR. On 2m you can get away with a wire ground, but the copper braid is better, providing a low impedence path to ground.

I'm a newbie at this but the radio thing is pretty cool. There are some real experts out there in Mobile Ham Radio-seek them out. Most of them answer to "Elmer".:wavey:

I attached a pic of my mount in my 80 series Land Cruiser. I've improved it a bit since the pic, but it sits in the same spot. The radios take lot of fiddling, so mount it in easy reach.

I would be interested in other's perspective.

KI6CXS

[BajaXplorer]

To learn a lot more about 2m and ham radio look here (http://www.tacomaterritory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17428&highlight=ham+radio+101)
It is a very good explanation for most off roaders, and has some good links as well.
BX

[Steve Curren]

Thanks to the both of you for this information, I am going to be headed for the Phoenix area next week to a store to outfit myself with a radio. With this information I will have a better understanding of both how the radio works as well as mounting the radio and the antenna. I have the information coming on how to ready myself for the test and I hopefully will be driving off road with a radio that will have a bit more range than the one I presently have.
Thanks, :bowdown:
Steve

[Desertdude]

I found http://hamradiooutlet.com/ off W Dunlap in Phoenix - everything in Stock and great info - even had GPS coordinates on the website;


The ham thing is spreading like wildfire in the offroad world :Wow1:

[UncleChris]

I found http://hamradiooutlet.com/ off W Dunlap in Phoenix - everything in Stock and great info - even had GPS coordinates on the website;


The ham thing is spreading like wildfire in the offroad world :Wow1:

HRO is my vendor of choice!

I think people are starting to realize the limitations of CB and are starting to appreciate the capabilities of Amateur Radio! It is a good thing!

[Steve Curren]

With all the talk about a mobil radio, what is the disadvantage to having an HT? I imagine the range is decreased but how much would it be decreased?
All this with antenna placement, mounting the antenna and the radio has me chasing my tail.:confused:

[asteffes]

HTs are amazingly useful. If you're going to buy only one radio, an HT makes sense, as it can go with you on your morning dog walks, backpacking trips, other vehicles, emergency packs and all sorts of other places. You're typically limited to five watts of output power, but usually can also connect an external antenna to help maintain a good range.

The Kentood D7A can do everything the TM-V700 can do, with less output power and a smaller display. That's a lot of technology in a tiny package. The less sophisticated HTs (costing around $250-300) are very useful, too, and a great choice for a beginner.

[Steve Curren]

Thanks, I have used HTs for years and I like them. Do they have better batteries that will last longer and how about items like car charger and speaker for them?
I do appreciate your advise.
Steve

[asteffes]

There is a wide variety of accessories available for all the major-name HTs out there. Nickle-metal-hydride and lithium ion batteries are becoming more common. Speaker mics, replacement antennas, fast and/or trickle chargers, 12v cig outlet plugs, etc. are all available. An excellent extra to have on-hand is a battery tray that accepts standard AA alkaline cells, as an emergency backup to the main battery pack.

A fully kitted-out HT can approach or even exceed the cost of a quality mobile rig, but you do get the advantage of being able to use your HT anywhere you want.

[Steve Curren]

I found a 7 watt, 2 meter HT with charger for sale, would this unit be what I would want ?

[asteffes]

That sounds nice, but I think we would need some details to really offer you helpful advice.

[Desertdude]

I just bought the Yeasu 170 (http://www.yaesu.com/indexVS.cfm?cmd=DisplayProducts&ProdCatID=111&encProdID=vWvb5gNEReM%3D&DivisionID=65&isArchived=0) hand held as a hiking unit - it is real nice - Been able to transmit and recieve well over 5 miles over mnts

got a little mic and 12v adapter for it - in case we need to use it in another vehicle

[Steve Curren]

The one I found I think that might fill the bill is a ICOM IC-V82. I would get the speaker mike and an alkaline battery case for back up. I will see if I can get an external antenna that fits the unit.
Thansk for the input.

[BajaTaco]

With all the talk about a mobil radio, what is the disadvantage to having an HT?

I don't think there is one.

However, I have seen a disadvantage to them if used as your only radio on a trip with friends in the backcountry. And that is that they have only one power option (low), and if used in their most simple mode of operation (hand-held) they have a limited power supply and limited range. You can improve the power and range a bit by hooking up wires... but they can be a little "messy" by the time you have them hooked up to a 12v wire, an external antenna, and possibly an external mic.

I think the best choice is to have both a HT and a unit that is hard-mounted in the vehicle. (but I know that is $$$, which is why I don't have a HT yet).

[UncleChris]

An HT is a necessity for back country as well as in town use.

I have a Yaesu VX-7R. Small, quad band(6m, 2m, 1.25m, 70cm) and it is waterproof. I got it in November before the rains came. Much as I like my Kenwood D7A, it is heavy and not waterproof. I use my HT every morning when I walk the dog.

Small and light, + if I am wheeling with people with Ham rigs, you can get out and spot/check the trail, etc while staying in touch. Keep this in mind with a cb as well, have a handheld in addition to your mobile, you will find lots of use for it.

I would highly recommend both.

As an intial radio, I would recommend a HT. Less variables to worry about.

[Steve Curren]

Sounds as if I could really get the Jeep loaded with radios and no room for lunch. To start with would a 2 meter radio be ok or a dual band one? I really have no idea if I would want to go any higher on the radio useage like a 10 meter or something. I found that ICOM with 7 watts and I thought it might be powerful enough for what I need.
Steve

[UncleChris]

Sounds as if I could really get the Jeep loaded with radios and no room for lunch. To start with would a 2 meter radio be ok or a dual band one? I really have no idea if I would want to go any higher on the radio useage like a 10 meter or something. I found that ICOM with 7 watts and I thought it might be powerful enough for what I need.
Steve

I have a friend with 10 radios and 14 antennas. A little extreme, but he has a ford extradition(somehow the word expedition doesn't seem to apply!).

No need to go overboard.

A radio is a means of communication. If you have 50 bands and the people you are expeditioning with only have 1, that is the only one you need. THings to consider(as always)

1.) Cost
2.) Intended use(are you going to be hanging out on repeaters during commute?Or just using it for trail use)
3.) How populated an area are you are going to be using it
4.) How much interest do you have in Radio for Radios sake
5.) How much interest you have in going to the upper license levels
6.) How much interest you have in multi-tier/more complex communications(APRS for example)

I would recommend a dual-bander off the bat for most people if you are a ham who is serious about adventuring or if you are an adventure-head who is serious about communications(and have the money for a dual bander.)

If you have a group that you go out on the trail with and they are all licensed and using 2ms and that is the only use you have for it, a 2m should be fine.

BUT, remember, the more radio options that you have available are the more options you have when you need it.

Be aware that most hams are kind of....well....paranoid. They spend great amounts of time preparing for disasters, so that they will be able to use their gear to help(<<Objective comment, not meant good or bad)

A side benefit of running a dual band rig is then you can access repeaters on two different bands. I commute 100 miles a day, and the commute has gotten much better since I talk on the radio all the way into work and back(on both 2m and 70cm bands).

The Bay area is pretty dense as far as the Ham population goes. We have 3-4pretty active repeaters around. Last time I went to Hollister Hills, I was talking with people over on Fremont peak(Hold on a second, I need to check my flex....)

I have met a lot of cool people with various backgrounds. It is kind of fun to be talking to tow truck drivers about winches (and the crane the had to tow home last night, or the pickup they had to yank out of a gully), the guy running comms for the Sea Otter, the network guy for Laguna Seca raceway, as well as firmware engineers for Hard Drives and software project managers.

I digress

To answer your question get what you can afford, although it doesn't hurt to buy a little over. I wouldn't worry about 6m, 10m or lower bands though.

Hope that helps!

[Steve Curren]

I understand where you are coming from, I don't imagine I will be running with too many people with 2 meter or 70 cm radios but I think it would be good to have an HT that could make contact with others if help was needed. I also may go places with those who do have the 2 meter or 70 cm radios and it would be nice to communicate with them. HT dual band is what I shall get and I am going to order one tonight.
Thanks to you and everyone who has answered my cry for help.
Steve

[ldivinag]

I don't think there is one.



low power. period.

my teeny yaesu VX-7R is only 5 watts.

my last event, i volunteered as a comm worker for a race (rim of the world rally) and since this was held in a hilly national forest, my TX was on the low side.

i really needed 35-50 watts.

[ldivinag]

i did have a FMJ mag mount on top of my 4runner. i think that kinda helped a bit.

on the couple yahoo groups for the VX-7, a few mentioned an outboard amp/docking setup where it kinda turns it into a mobile... but no longer made.

[DaveInDenver]

i did have a FMJ mag mount on top of my 4runner. i think that kinda helped a bit.

on the couple yahoo groups for the VX-7, a few mentioned an outboard amp/docking setup where it kinda turns it into a mobile... but no longer made.

That would be pretty cool. You could use a Mirage BD35, which is a 2m/70cm amplifier. I think 5W in gets 45W out on 2m.

[ldivinag]

i think mirage was one name brought up.

although the one pix i saw almost looked like a docking station, like for a laptop.

[asteffes]

Amps are fine, but I think an HT can do quite a lot with a quality external antenna on the roof of your rig. I would definitely start with that.