How much off-road capability is enough? [Archive]

DaveInDenver

01-11-2008, 06:20 PM

I think this is a great subject. I know in the case of my truck I have to go out of my way to use it fully. It seems for our purposes it's got lots of capability that isn't used often. But that's sort of the rub. Like 95% of the time you don't need anything more than a stock Subaru to get some place, but that 0.5% of the time that conditions require it you are sure glad you have lockers or winch or whatever. I've always thought that having a built up truck can defeat some of the reason for going into the backcountry. I mean what's wrong with stopping, parking and walking a bit? But when you frame it in terms of getting some place, then having that extra capability is really marginal unless you are specifically going rock crawling or whatever. There's generally options, by-passes, different roads or routes that all achieve similar goals. But the journey can be better the hard way. I mean take getting from Wenworth Springs to Lake Tahoe. One way is paved and gets you there through surely pretty land and the other is the Rubicon trail, which is more remote, challenging and fun.

Martyn

01-11-2008, 06:27 PM

Dave

I though "Trail Rated" on a stock Jeep meant it was capable of going over the Rubicon?

While I don't believe the vehicle would come over unscathed I do believe a lot of stock vehicles are very capable.

sami

01-11-2008, 07:12 PM

I sport an '85 4runner with 5" springs, 37's, dual cases, bla bla bla built for rockcrawling clearly... (for sale) ;)

The most fun i've had wheeling i'd have to say was in a stock Samurai, my first vehicle. :)

I agree that stock vehicles can be very capable from the factory, which is why i love older Toyotas in most cases.

-Jason

Rhode Trip

01-11-2008, 07:45 PM

Somewhere on Stephen Stewart's (http://www.xor.org.uk/index.html) site there is a 'lessons learned' page, that I can't, for the life of me, find again.*

Anyway, he has traveled exetensivly in 'regular' motorhomes, and in a Mog-based camper that he designed himself. According to his site, he has sold the Mog and is looking for his next ride.

One comment on his 'lessons learned' page said that paying extra for the 4x4 version of an on-road truck is worthwhile, but paying extra for a true off-road truck is not. That comment surprises me, coming from someone who has put a Mog-based camper through it's paces.

From his comments on 'Agent Orange.' I suspect part of his rational is based on the fact that higher cruising speeds are possible with a 4x4 on-road truck v. a true off-road truck?

What are your thoughts?

*Sorry I can't find a link to the page I'm referencing. If you have it, please post it.

Lynn, I think you are thinking of the "what Van?" article here:
http://www.xor.org.uk/silkroute/index.html

He says: "In my opinion the extra cost of a 4x4 version of an on-road truck (if available) is worthwhile, but the extra cost of a true "off-road" vehicle is not.

Having said that I also think that if an otherwise suitable vehicle is available with 16 or 17 inch wheels, rear wheel drive and a departure angle of 15° then the fact that it is only two wheel drive should not exclude it from consideration."

haven

01-11-2008, 07:53 PM

The article in question is located here
http://www.xor.org.uk/silkroute/equipment/choosevan.htm

This is a "must-read" piece for people thinking about long-term overland travel. Stewart talks about vehicles for travel on unimproved roads in remote areas. The advice doesn't necessarily apply to weekend rock hoppers, who may wish to test their skills over very rough terrain, where there is no road at all.

Stewart's article is written for members of the Silk Road Motorcaravan Club, for journeys that last weeks, if not months. Stewart writes: "In my opinion the extra cost of a 4x4 version of an on-road truck (if available) is worthwhile, but the extra cost of a true "off-road" vehicle is not."

This is not to say that long-term travel is impossible in a true off-road vehicle. It depends on the level of comfort and convenience you require during a journey of several weeks or months. Everybody's different in this regard.

Chip Haven

Funrover

01-11-2008, 08:31 PM

Well.. I guess I am one tring to dabble in both sport with one 4x4. I try to make everything totally functional, and I keep away from bling.

That being said I do enjoy the nice flowing trails and expedition style set ups.. but I am also a fan of rockcrawling!

My 1992 Range Rover has a 3" lift and 33.5" tires. and I am set, I see no reason to go larger. Was I able to do a lot with my 2" lift and my 32" tires. But I often found myself in trouble.. only by an inch or 2.

Here I am now:
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c353/Funrover/My%20Rangie/IMG_0162-1.jpg

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c353/Funrover/My%20Rangie/IMG_0159-1.jpg

Sliders are being redone currently, so they are not pictured.

Now with all of that being said my parents have a stock 97 Rover, it does great for them... takes them on all the trails they want to do and gets them around safly in the city!!

I think it depends on what type of person you are. I am into the rockcrawl scene some so for me the few extra mods are worth it!

DaveInDenver

01-11-2008, 08:35 PM

I though "Trail Rated" on a stock Jeep meant it was capable of going over the Rubicon?

Never knew that. I'd be genuinely surprised to hear that a showroom fresh Jeep Liberty could make it through the Rubicon solo, though.

While I don't believe the vehicle would come over unscathed I do believe a lot of stock vehicles are very capable.
I think that was my point. Just about any stock 4WD car is going to be fine for a lot of things. But I've had my rear saved a few times by having lockers, mostly in the winter. So I dunno, I think to say you absolutely don't need modifications is a fairly limiting constraint on where you go.

FusoFG

01-11-2008, 08:50 PM

From his comments on 'Agent Orange.' I suspect part of his rational is based on the fact that higher cruising speeds are possible with a 4x4 on-road truck v. a true off-road truck?

What are your thoughts?

I suspect it's because aside from maybe the sahara desert, there aren't that many places to visit that require a true 'off road' vehicle.

For the places we travel in north america, I would be happy with a high clearance vehicle with low range and a 6,000 to 8,000 pound payload.

There are lots of unimproved roads on the way to remote lakes, camping, etc. that require high clearance and good approach, breakover and departure angles.

And when you are driving a 10,000 plus pound truck carrying all your living needs for 2 or more months a good low range is essential to keep the wine glasses from breaking.

The only time 4wd is required ( aside from using low range ) is in poor traction caused by mud, snow, etc.

efuentes

01-11-2008, 08:55 PM

My take on a "couple of weeks at a time expedition truck" (The usual for most of us)

Modify the truck as much as you want/need while keeping the original reliability and handling intact.

Or to put it another way, increase departure angles, tire size, suspension travel and capacity without altering dependability and CG.

Or just get a LC 80, slap some dual batteries and volvo portal axles and be done with it.

Saludos

Scott Brady

01-11-2008, 08:59 PM

Dave

I though "Trail Rated" on a stock Jeep meant it was capable of going over the Rubicon?

Trail rated is a series of "trail" attributes as tested by the Nevada test center. Like fording depth, tractive ability, articulation, ground clearance, etc.

The Rubicon requirement was before "trail rated" and a legacy (and a fine one at that) of Le Iococa (sp?)

Scott Brady

01-11-2008, 09:01 PM

Never knew that. I'd be genuinely surprised to hear that a showroom fresh Jeep Liberty could make it through the Rubicon solo, though.

It can... I drove it/spotted it through. ;)

No failures and could still drive under its own power back to Reno.

(looking for pictures, will post)

Scott Brady

01-11-2008, 09:03 PM

Some
What are your thoughts?

Lynn,

This is a great post, but really begs the question of where you want to explore. Remote Mayan Temple through the jungle, then MAJOR 4wd and driver capability is required.

My trip to the Arctic (minus the Peel River) could have easily been done in a Subaru (still pulling the trailer).

So it depends on what your objectives are, which will define the vehicle specification.

DaveInDenver

01-11-2008, 09:06 PM

It can... I drove it/spotted it through. ;)
Well I'll be. No straps or winches, then? Here I've been all worried about taking my double locked, 2" lifted, ARB'd, 33" tired, hopefully eventually fitted with sliders/Marlin/BudBuilt Hilux through it. And I could have just been driving a Liberty all these years.

Scott Brady

01-11-2008, 09:24 PM

Well I'll be. No straps or winches, then?

I certainly didn't say that :), though less than you would imagine.

It is rare for a vehicle NOT to need a winch or strap on that trail though, especially the more moderately built ones.

My Tacoma never needed a strap or winch, which was cool (of course, Chris' excellent driving helped). We only kicked on the front locker twice, for about two feet total.

DaveInDenver

01-11-2008, 09:31 PM

I certainly didn't say that :), though less than you would imagine.

It is rare for a vehicle NOT to need a winch or strap on that trail though, especially the more moderately built ones.
I was being somewhat tongue in cheek there, but I assumed that Lynn's original premise was that a stocker was all that is necessary. If you presume that expedition travel entails a lot of time alone, then I would say having lockers, winch, better suspension would be awfully darn useful if there's no one on the other end of your strap (the whole getting a Liberty through the Rubicon solo in my post). Get my drift?

Scott Brady

01-11-2008, 09:35 PM

Get my drift?

Absolutely my friend, and my choice in vehicles and "mods" certainly reflects that too :)

HMR

01-11-2008, 10:13 PM

The biggest weakness to my rig is not the lack of a winch, snorkel, etc...
It's ME, the driver.

I'm working on changing that. ;)

Spikepretorius

01-12-2008, 05:46 AM

The only real requirements are 1. Seriously tough bash plates underneath and 2. a set of good tyres. Everything else is a bonus

I firmly believe out of everything I've done to my trucks the bashplates were the best mod. Your vehicle becomes so much more capable when you're not scared to death everytime you hear a knock underneath.

And if you get in a real tricky rocky situation you can, instead of trying to pick a safe line and possibly get damage, you can rather pick the rocky line and lay the truck down on the rocky surface and slide it like a sled. If you're on the rocks they can't bash you. I know this sounds extreme but it happened to me. We were doing a mountain trail which had eroded quite badly from floods and almost at the summit the route was blocked by a boulder. We had to gingerly turn around and get back down which wasn't quite the same as coming up. Where it took us an hour or two to go up it took us to sunset to get down.

So, first on the shopping list for me is 4mm super tough bashplates and then you can go most places

Scott Brady

01-12-2008, 06:18 AM

Ok, found the pictures.

This is an S1 KK liberty, which means a prototype built to production specifications and everything works.

Photo Rock
http://www.expeditionswest.com/image1/KK_liberty/scott_liberty_photo_rock.JPG

Walker Hill (I think)
http://www.expeditionswest.com/image1/KK_liberty/walker_hill_liberty_kk.JPG

Flounder

01-12-2008, 01:43 PM

My trip to the Arctic (minus the Peel River) could have easily been done in a Subaru (still pulling the trailer).

Kudos to you for including that factoid. I think statements like that help add perspective and hopefully temper reservations people might have with their current set up. You'd be horrified to hear how much "overlanding" I did in a crappy Ford Explorer. I thought I was "road tripping" as mods and overlanding were just out of my scope of experience. I'm learning.

In '93, a buddy of mine bought an H1. He bashed his way up a trail in Colorado only to find a late 80s Subaru wagon parked at the top of the trail. Hilarious. Those Subbies.

DaveInDenver

01-12-2008, 01:47 PM

Ok, found the pictures.

This is an S1 KK liberty, which means a prototype built to production specifications and everything works.

Very cool. Goes to show that it's easy to lose our focus on why we do this when we're dazzled by all the gadgets and modifications.

In '93, a buddy of mine bought an H1. He bashed his way up a trail in Colorado only to find a late 80s Subaru wagon parked at the top of the trail. Hilarious. Those Subbies.
This is really more common than you'd think. We'll be bashing and banging our way up a trail, get to the top and find a 1980 VW Rabbit or 1992 Geo Metro sitting there. Damnedest thing and really sort of embarrassing when you think about how much money and time we spend on these things. Now to be fair it's pretty unlikely they didn't stop there because they ripped open their oil pan and it's also pretty likely that we'll be taking the car (or pieces of it) out for the next few years. But, still, a little clearance, good tires and a level head go a really long way.

Robthebrit

01-12-2008, 04:02 PM

In '93, a buddy of mine bought an H1. He bashed his way up a trail in Colorado only to find a late 80s Subaru wagon parked at the top of the trail. Hilarious. Those Subbies.

Thats happend to me too a bunch a times - The best was a 2wd VW bus (not a synchro) sitting proudly at the top.

Rob

njtaco

01-12-2008, 05:05 PM

My trip to the Arctic (minus the Peel River) could have easily been done in a Subaru (still pulling the trailer).

So it depends on what your objectives are, which will define the vehicle specification.

Goes to show that it's easy to lose our focus on why we do this when we're dazzled by all the gadgets and modifications.

It is threads like this, and quotes like above from so many expo members that keep my feet firmly grounded. (Well, my lack of a budget helps too.) Every time I have to decide whether to buy SAWs or Bilsteins (now waiting for the Bilsteins to arrive) or any other modification decision, I have to consciously remember I'm not a sheep, and don't rock crawl. My needs are different for my truck than most. I'd rather ask my wife to go to Vermont, Maine, West Va, or anywhere else than feel like I have to explain that we can't go because I just ordered an ARB bumper (which I didn't).

I know very well that my Tacoma is not holding me back, and even stock it is a capable truck. I'll wait for the right modifications to come to me, and enjoy the truck like it is until then. I can turn the key and drive probably 90+ percent of the roads in the USA now, paved, dirt, or otherwise, and most places elsewhere (within reason).

ExPo is great for encouraging add-ons, equiptment, etc., and it is fun to dream big and web-wheel. After all the information is sorted and advice offered the genuine feel from most members, for most trips, will be "join us on a trip, we will help you along" instead of "your truck isn't good enough".

Redline

01-12-2008, 09:34 PM

Well I'm no Scott Brady or Chris Marzonie, but seeing your posts about the Liberty has me encouraged. Maybe my little 4Runner can make it on the Rubicon as it is currently set-up :-) (with lots of careful spotting/driving... need to go mid-week to avoid the crowds and being in a hurry) But with lots of trips planned in 2008, it might have to wait another year.

James

Ok, found the pictures.

This is an S1 KK liberty, which means a prototype built to production specifications and everything works.

Photo Rock
http://www.expeditionswest.com/image1/KK_liberty/scott_liberty_photo_rock.JPG

Walker Hill (I think)
http://www.expeditionswest.com/image1/KK_liberty/walker_hill_liberty_kk.JPG

ChuckB

01-12-2008, 09:47 PM

ExPo is great for encouraging add-ons, equiptment, etc., and it is fun to dream big and web-wheel. After all the information is sorted and advice offered the genuine feel from most members, for most trips, will be "join us on a trip, we will help you along" instead of "your truck isn't good enough".

That's exactly why I enjoy this forum more than any other!!

Lynn

01-14-2008, 03:34 PM

OK, I asked the original question based on remembering a line Mr. Stewart wrote. Since Rhode Trip and Haven were kind enough to supply a link to the original article, I have had the opportunity to go back and read it again.

It's pretty clear what he meant. I've quoted the paragraph in question below and added emphasis:

Take the case of the 4x4 version of the Mercedes 815D (an on-road truck) and a Mercedes U3000 Unimog (a true off-road truck).

Here's a picture of an 815D, and Mr. Stewart's 'Mog:

http://english.sba.is/Media/slideshow/big/c93838363ee376.jpghttp://www.xor.org.uk/unimog/mymog/graphics/dcp_0520.jpg

Both vehicles have a maximum gross weight of 7500kg and both are 4x4. However the Unimog has 20 inch wheels (rather than 17 inch), twice the ground clearance (with portal axles) a 51° departure angle (rather than around 20°), front as well as rear differential lock, a raised air intake (for fording rivers) a pressurized transmission system (for fording rivers), disk brakes all round, a parking brake that will hold on a 45° slope (if you dare!) etc. etc.

It is also worth noting that the intended load distribution of the two vehicles is very different. The Unimog, like many true off-road vehicles is designed for a near equal load on each axle, whereas the 815D is intended to have substantially more weight on the rear axle (which consequently has double wheels).

But the Unimog also uses considerably more fuel per kilometer on the highway (say 70% more?) and is far less pleasant to drive than the 815D. The U3000 chassis/cab probably weighs 1000kg more than the 4x4 815D. Most importantly it costs a lot more.

In very round terms I believe that a 2x4 815D chassis/cab costs 45,000 Euros, a 4x4 815D chassis/cab costs 62,000 Euros and a U3000 Unimog costs more than 100,000 Euros!
In my opinion the extra cost of a 4x4 version of an on-road truck (if available) is worthwhile, but the extra cost of a true "off-road" vehicle is not.

Seems that after extensive world-wide travel, much of which was in his Unimog, he's ready for something faster, cheaper, and more comfortable.

Wish we had those 815Ds here...

Rhode Trip

01-14-2008, 05:18 PM

We also should mention Steven Stuarts definition:
"By "overland journey" I mean something considerably more demanding than a two week trip to the South of France but less demanding than pioneering a new route across the Sahara. Most of what I call overland journeys would:

Be more than (say) ten weeks long.
Involve significant travel on poor, often dirt roads.
Be wholly or partly in sparsely populated areas of the world without official "campsites".
Often involve travel at high altitude or in hot, cold or very wet conditions.

"

ie: bad roads, but not 'no roads at all'. At some point, anyway, 'need' becomes replaced by 'want.' If I got to pick between the 815D and the Mog? Not a tough decision.

OS-Aussie

01-14-2008, 06:43 PM

You know that the funny part of this is the number of two wheel drive trucks and cars you see being driven by all the locals at all these alleged remote places.

Vehicle mods are often done to make it easier or safer, or maybe less demanding. We have all gotten a little soft with after market toys. However if I look at my wrangler I will be silent on that subject, but my Cherokee is stock except for some protection options.

I think that the Cherokee fits the NA expedition theme and ability to go to most of these locations. However my wrangler will tow my trailer across Dusy and Cherokee will never drive that trail.

So trail ratings 3 or less 98% and hardcore 4 to 5+ maybe 2%.
Which is nicer to sit in for 10 hours straight on the highway......
let me think.............:safari-rig: Cherokee

So should you spend all that money to drive a small number of possible trails.......
I guess it depends on what floats your boat....... needed maybe not, fun yes..

Be honest there is also a degree of image in these activities.....
You know, like those "individuals" who ride Harley's, but look the same
Expo people who dress and outfit the same...... :oops:
I guess it is like most clubs it makes picking our people easier.........
You can see the vehicle or people and know which group ..........

NOT THAT THERE IS ANYTHING WRONG WITH THAT.........

Tom_D

01-17-2008, 09:26 PM

I drove my FUSO FG with camper on a 2 month trip this summer. We traveled through Alaska and Canada covering about 8700 miles with over 1500 miles on dirt. We traveled the Denali Hwy, Top of the World and the Dempster Hwy and met several MOG campers and one UNICAT on a MAN. While the FG is still slow by comparison to an SUV it was faster, more quiet, comfortable and less expensive to run than a U1300.

BTW I own two MOGs (not campers) so I have some experience with them too.

I think that for extended overland travel on primitive dirt roads the FG is a good vehicle. We have a range of almost 1000 miles and can carry over 3 weeks worth of water and food for two people. However, it is NOT a true off road vehicle and cannot go where my MOGs can.

Tom

63tlf8

01-22-2008, 09:18 PM

[/QUOTE]..Seems that after extensive world-wide travel, much of which was in his Unimog, he's ready for something faster, cheaper, and more comfortable....[/QUOTE]

G'day, I'm new to this forum but have been following Stephen Stewarts adventures for some years. An interesting series of comments made by members but I wouldn't think that most of the vehicles pictured are really relevant to the discussion:truck: . Stewart usually travelled for in excess of a year at a time so its a true extreme weather home with all that entails rather than a SUV on a few week trip. His observations are adequately supported by "Bigfoot" successfully travelling with them at times. So in essence I think that his observations are well founded and his experience far exceeds most of us to make them.

I have a UNIMOG 404 that has been converted from a Fire truck to a flat bed to carry a demountable camper. Whilst the MOG gets to travel some difficult country, 2WD cars and trucks also get around most of it too. I choose it for a number of reasons:
The extra ability to move in more difficult conditions when weighing 5 tonne rather than 2,
The industrial toughness that is missing even from the FUSO and like,
Mechanical simplicity. Most anything can be fixed by almost anyone, which is not the case with my LR Discovery and any newer 4X4, and
Affordable as it has the lockers, super single wheels and sorted comfortable suspension that have to be added to a FUSO etc to ensure that its potential is realised.

The downside, older ergonomics and more noisy unless you do some work. So, not everymans choice but suits what I do, transiting via back tracks and x-country. I could also get to most places via a road system and you can be sure that I'd be in something with a better and more relaxed cruising speed if that was how I wanted to travel.

jammyauto

02-04-2008, 03:16 AM

So Tom I'm curious, did you ever get the FG stuck on your alaska trip? How many times did you use the 4wd? Unless I'm driving on the beach or somewhere where slipping off the trail is possible (like mud of ice) I always wait until I need 4wd before engaging and I'm really supprised how seldom I use it, in any of my vehicles.

HiLift Jack

02-05-2008, 12:42 AM

We rode our dual sports up a rugged North Georgia mountain trail only to find a school bus at the top of the mountain with four deer hunters having breakfast inside. They were shock we found the trail in the woods and we were shocked to see the bus. They said it took a case of beer and a chainsaw, four of them and a day to locate the bus there.

lqhikers

02-05-2008, 01:20 AM

Love threads like this as you can tell everyone is remembering great trips and trails.Which brings me to my 2 cents worth.as some one who started out in the 60's (1960)with a stock 4banger willies,went a lot more remote places than i do now ,but that is because everything was open then.Since there were few 4x4 for use you did not see very many 4x4's,but you did see 2x4 ford,chevy,dodge,IH,.My dad started taking me to baja in the early 50's and all the trails roads we now use in Baja were first used by 2x4 cars and trucks,the first time we broke down below San Felipe we were towed back on the old road by a 1947 chevy pu!. When ever i look back at some of the old pictures of the mapping trucks(4x4 Chevy carryalls)that the auto club used i wonder if we have come very far in "having" the ideal expedition vech.! and yes i do like the ac in our taco on hot summer days on the trail! drive slow and enjoy "its the journey"

Lynn

02-05-2008, 01:25 AM

All the discussion of 2wds in places where they shouldn't be reminds me of a story I've heard several times over the years.

My uncle (may he rest in peace) was a big-time 'coon hunter. For years he hunted out of a 2wd truck. Then he got a Willy's flat fender.

He used to say that he hated that Willy's, and was always getting it stuck, "Cuz with the truck I knew better than to go there!"

I guess that's what you call a false sense of security!

Chucaro

02-05-2008, 04:28 AM

I have read Stephen page with lot of interest. In his page he ask for feed back from the readers which I done so.
his article addresses the vehicle and capabilities and choices of an ideal vehicle based on the technical aspects of it.
He forgot one factor which is overlooked by many people and regretful by future buyers and it is the physical and health capabilities of the driver in an event where physical strength does not have a substitute. i am here talking about basic things like change a tire which can weight several kilos or placed in a poor place in the vehicle. If the driver can not do this task alone, then does matter if it is the best Unimog in the world, it still not the best vehicle for that person.
In his reply to my email he write:
[Quote]
Hi,

Thanks for the feed back, you make a good point.

I imagine that the perception of the problem may be greater than the reality. Although I'm 60 and only moderately fit I have changed the 75kg wheels on my Mog several times without problem because I prepared a couple of long levers (for lifting the wheel up to the hub and up to the spare wheel holder) and a set of wooden blocks and I practiced at home.

On the road when I had to change a wheel in a crowd in India I paid one man $5 to keep everybody away (and not nick my tools) and $5 to another man who did some of the the heavy work. I have only had two or three punctures so far.

Thanks again

Stephen
[end of Quote]

In my opinion and based in Australian conditions the ideal vehicle has to be 1)Diesel and preferable not electronics dependant
2) Have a sufficient large payload for water,fuel & provisions for the intended trip
3)The owner or crew be able to perform basic repairs without assistance,
4) The weight of the vehicle cannot be so great that it cannot be rescued by a similar vehicle in case of bogging in a remote place.
5)Without compromise the above points have supension, under body protection and ground clearance sufficient for the intented trip.

A common selection of vehicles for this trips (around Oz) are Toyota Landcrusier 4.2 diesel, Nissan Patrol 4.2 diesel, Defenders Tdi.
All of them are capable of carrying a reasonable large payload. and driven by people of all ages and physical conditions
Cheers

OS-Aussie

02-05-2008, 06:47 PM

Mate, you a Brissie boy or what ?

I am from Dalby on the Darling Downs and my wife is from St George and my folks live in Moree.

Talking about changing tires you have not lived until you change super singles, whole new world of thinking, all about being smart not strong. That also makes me think I have not seen a split rim for a long time.

I don't think I am that old, but even I can remember many of the roads out that way changing from gravel to single lane to sealed. We have a picture of the road between Toowoomba and Dalby from the fifties and it is single lane dirt.

So we do have it very easy these days......
I think they drove slower those days and saw more of the country, this is also less likely to damage your vehicle. Did you ever see that show about the Aboriginal bush mechanics, I think it gives us all some room to think about the truth of travel. The vehicle is a medium for the adventure not the adventure.

Chucaro

02-05-2008, 08:06 PM

OS-Aussie

02-05-2008, 11:02 PM

Hi, no I am not a Brisi boy., currently I live in Moore Park Beach 450 km north east of Brisbane, but I am moving a lot, from Sydney, NSW to Childres Qld, to Hobart, Tasmania, to Sydney, then Queensland and now home base for sale and go touring again.
When I was building professionally ocean going steel yachts we learned that a true and safe yacht was the one that the crew can manage in any eventuality. generally up to 15 tos displacement or 40 foot yacht.
This rule I think is applicable for exploration rigs here help is not available.
Just because the person is old or fragile do not need to give up the dream.
Cheers

Small world, I have a Army friend who owns a security company in Bundy.
I spent a couple of years with the Dept of Environment in Rocky.

You are in a great location, but you moved from Tassie which is my retirement goal. I want to be somewhere on the Tassie west coastal area.

Dreams only stop when we die !!! There is so much to see and so little time, good to see you are living life !!

Chucaro

02-05-2008, 11:19 PM

I built steel ocean going yachts in Tasmania for few years and it is a beautiful place. My son live in Hobart.
At the en of the month I am driving to Tasmania and exploring the west coast. I hope to take a lot of photos which I am planning to post in this forum.
Do not think that it is impossible dream for you, the real estate in Tasmania outside the large cities is very cheap.
I like a lot the far north east coast of Tassie, the weather is magnificent and you are relatively close to Launceston.
Have a look in the map just north of St Helens, a place call Bay of Fires.

KEEP THE DREAM A LIVE :camping:

OS-Aussie

02-06-2008, 12:49 AM

Yep, been to the wineries in the Bay of Fires. The North East has some very nice spots, but not wild like the Western side. The taste of Tassie event is also very good value.

My wife loved Pete's garden from Gardening Australia on the ABC (Hobart)
http://www.osaussie.com/gallery/Tassie/DSCN0203.jpg

Then there is this Christmas time event (first one in)

http://www.osaussie.com/gallery/Tassie/DSCN0220.jpg

Now the North East.......
http://www.osaussie.com/gallery/Tassie/DSCN0146.jpg

http://www.osaussie.com/gallery/Tassie/DSCN0131.jpg

Ok, I am guessing that this is now off topic......... sorry

Chucaro

02-06-2008, 01:00 AM

You can bet that it is going to motivate some people :26_7_2:

Tom_D

02-19-2008, 04:44 PM

Sorry I haven't been on the forum for a couple of weeks...

Jimmyauto asked if we ever got stuck on our AK trip.

We needed to negotiate some interesting muddy and off camber tracks and we never had any trouble. The FG with 4 wheel drive and limited slip really has pretty good traction if you are careful not to slide off weak shoulders.

I use 4 wheel drive/ high range on most rough dirt roads even thought 2 wheel drive is all that is really needed. This is a common tactic that is done to distribute the stress over all the whole drive line instead of just the rear end.

Also, I do tend to use 4 wheel drive early to avoid spinning tires. My FG has locking from hubs so on the highway we disengage the front drive to save wear and fuel.

Tom

TeriAnn

02-27-2008, 06:13 PM

I agree with the general consensus the the best vehicle depends upon where you are going, how long you will be about it and what features are important to you while being about it.

I think about 80% of my trip driving is going between places I want to visit and photograph and some of those places I want to visit are on paved and maintained dirt roads.

Sometimes I think I would be best off with a diesel Sprint based RV. A front & rear winch, tall tyres might even get me into places that are considered easy off roading. But I do like to visit places that are a bit more remote with medium & sometimes difficult off road trails to get there. So my vehicle is set up for worst case just because i don't want to be restricted from places I like to go.

We all need to start with some platform. I started out with my farm work truck, a 1960 long wheelbase Land Rover. It was stock with a winch on the front that got used mostly for stringing fence or getting my tractor (Ford 631) unstuck. I already had the truck so it seemed to be a good place to start.

http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/LR.images/GRgoats.JPEG

I started by throwing my back packing gear & camera in the back and just going out on trips.

My philosophy is to learn how to drive my vehicle to its limits, learn those limits and THEN to make modifications as needed when I wanted to go beyond the vehicle's limits. And if I break something more than once to upgrade what I broke so it wont brake again.

Anyone with deep pockets can buy a vehicle and throw a a lot of money on do-dads without knowing if they are needed or even if they will all work together on that vehicle in the places they envision going.

I think the key is going places you want to go, learn how to best handle your vehicle under those conditions and make modifications when you reach limits that you want to go beyond. Sometimes it means abandoning your base vehicle and starting all over again with one that experience has taught you better fits your needs. Sometimes it just means incremental upgrades over time as experience says an upgrade is needed.

Long wheelbase Land Rovers are notorious for breaking rear axles so swapping the stock LR axle assembly with the heavy duty version (dana 60 built under license) was one of my first modifications.

My vehicle camping style epiphany came when I was in a campground. I was sitting on a my sleeping bag which was on a small ground cloth, cooking a freeze dried meal on my Svea 123 single burner stove when a Honda Civvic pulled into the next camp site. Out came a tent, cots, chairs, table, multiple lanterns, ice box, big Coleman stove and more.

So here I was holding a pan from my mess kit over a single burner camp stove, cooking in the dark, waiting for my meal to cook so I could heat some water for a cuppa tea. I looked at my camp site, looked at their camp site. looked that their little Honda then at my big 109 Land Rover and suddenly figured out what was wrong with this picture. I really didn't have to car camp using the same gear I used hiking the Yosemite high country. Duh!

So I switched over to vehicle camping gear. 3 or 4 years later I found myself setting up camp at night during a windy rain storm. I got my tarp mostly hung as an awning when a gust pulled a corner out of my hand. The tarp whipped about knocked off my propane lantern which broke and caught the tarp on fire (quickly extinguished). I slept inside the Land Rover and camped inside as the rain continued for the next few days. It was awfully uncomfortable and i was catching my hair on the roof vents on too regular a basis. So I made the decision to convert my Land Rover into an RV.

http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/snapshots/snaps/GRbcCamping.jpg

Since I like to cook and like my comfort I made the interior as comfortable as I could (I like to play house on the trail).

http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/LR.images/GRktichen1t.jpg

All this is a long winded way of saying I was lucky to have started with an good solid easily extensible vehicle platform, used it to its limits and extended those limits I wanted to go beyond in travel capability, reliability and comfort. Not all at once but gradually as I learned the limits and evolved my travel style.

You can spend a lot of money all at once on a platform that may or not meet your needs, may or not be comfortable enough and may or not be reliable when finished or you can take it slowly starting with a stock or near stock vehicle, learn what it can do, change horse early on if needed then modify that vehicle to best fit your needs. Learn your needs, your vehicle's capabilities first then modify to meet those needs.

Ozarker

07-03-2011, 04:54 PM

:Wow1:

To me, this is one of the best threads here for us newbies. It's an oldie with valid points for anyone starting off and perhaps for anyone with experience and wondering about their next vehicle. Some here may go down memory lane.

As a newbie, it took me a considerable amount of time and research to decide on what I needed vs. what I might want. Comments here might shorten that search for other newbies, too late for me as I made a choice. I was also very happy to see Subbies mentioned in a favorable light.

Some of the comments remind me of my outings years ago in VW bugs, if I got stuck I just got out picked up the front end and moved it! I had a VW bus that seemed to go anywhere. Several camping trips in the woods with my family in a Volvo 145 and toured Europe in, camping on a beach area in Amsterdam. I had a '77 (?) Ford Escort SS that really took a beating and kept going with FWD. And a Dodge van that I customized that never got stuck on river banks.

The longest venture I'm considering is to Deadhorse, Ak, just because, and to hear that a stock Subbie can get further north is enough for me. So, this thread just save me alot of $$$$$! :coffeedrink:

DiploStrat

07-04-2011, 04:23 PM

Never done the multi-year trips, but I have done a few multi-week and multi-month trips. When considering third world overlanding, as opposed to 4x4 rock/mud crawling, the biggest needs are things like:

-- Livability of the camper. It gets to be a chore to take care of a chore every night. Easier is better.

-- Durability. Washboard/potholes are more of a problem than mud or rocks. You want a vehicle that is sturdy enough to stand up to the strain and not damage itself.

-- Finally, fuel/water/food/spare parts capacity are important when you are traveling beyond major roads or places where your particular vehicle may be common.

As always on these things, YMMV ;)

charlieaarons

07-04-2011, 05:26 PM

When you are on another continent, 8k mi from home,
the key factors are reliability, livability, storage, serviceability.
Pure offroadability is less important.

Charlie
s. Australia, headed north

sg1

07-05-2011, 10:07 AM

How much off-road capability is enough? It depends on what you want to do. If you want to go on a multi-month or even multi-year expedition in the Americas (Panamericana) or Europe/Asia (Silkroad) you do not even need 4x4, although it is of course nice to have. In Africa it is very helpful to have a robust 4x4 but in my experience (with the exception of the Sahara) superior offroad capabilities (Unimog) are not necessary as long as you avoid the rainy season in Central Africa. The Sahara is, of course fantastic (I crossed it several times in the 80´s) but not safe right now and Central Africa in the rainy season is no fun anyway (I have been there for business). Therefore any reliable truck or van with good ground clearance especially if it has AWD or 4x4 will technically do. The locals usually do not have 4x4 buses or trucks.
Other practical considerations are, in my view, more important for the choice of the right vehicle. On a long trip it will have to be repaired and serviced. This is a lot easier if your truck is used by the locals in your "target area". Mercedes and the medium sized Asian trucks (Toyota, Mitsubishi, Isuzu, Hyundai) and, to a lesser extend Ford and Iveco have a worldwide service network for medium sized trucks.
Tire size is important too. You will most likely have to repair/replace tires. This is at least very expensive if not a serious problem if your size is not available in the country you travel to.
In many of the more interesting countries there are few (if any) comfortable campsites with clean facilities and surprisingly few unpopulated areas. Once you stop people with a great interest in you and your vehicle will appear even in the seemingly most remote places.To avoid unnecessary tensions especially with your better half you should be able to eat and sleep in your vehicle and to have your own clean shower and (cassette)toilet in case of bad weather and for better privacy.
Another point to consider is fuel quality. Low sulphur diesel and adblue are usually not available in 3rd world countries and sometimes the diesel is dirty and/or contains water. Modern common rail diesel engines can be used (the locally sold trucks and buses have them too) but you need good filters to remove dirt and water. DPF and the like are likely to eventually cause problems and should be removed.
But I think the most important is to actually go and do the trip you have always been dreaming of and to have an open mind for other ways of life.
Regards
Stefan

grizzlyj

07-05-2011, 02:05 PM

The only time we could have done with more speed was when travelling with faster vehicles. Just accelerating from a junction through the gears and a landy will be in the distance once you've reached 50mph which frustrates both parties over time.

We recently drove the Dades Gorge in Morocco in our Mog camper, 4-5 days after heavy rain. A few km before the end the track had mostly been washed away, and the locals had created a diversion with too much sideslope for my liking in our tall camper.

The 3.5ton Austrian Bremach camper we were travelling with also had similar concerns, but after 15 minutes of appraisal and a few rocks carefully placed they cleared the difficult patch slowly and with a spotter. Two big rocks that they squeezed through with shunts were not possible for us being a whole 500mm wider sidewall to sidewall.

While they were slowly and carefully making their way through, a local unladen 110 sped through an entirely different and new route without stopping to check first, nearly tipping over with one rear tyre well up in the air, only his speed pushed him back onto all 4, but he didn't seem fussed!

A local two wheel drive pick up also sped through, using speed and his trashed front bumper to push his way through the churned up river bed, although he needed a few run ups in places.

The pick up then stopped to help us make a route for the Mog. I'd decided that just straight down the water channel was easiest and flattest, so 8 of us spent nearly 2 hours moving rocks. Driving it felt quite uneventful, although low range and a good spotter were essential.

If our camper was lower we could have risked more tilt.

If our truck did not have such clearance or gearing the construction task would have been much greater, or even retacing our steps then becoming the best choice.

The chance to view 4 such different vehicles take on the same obstacle was quite enlightening, and with varying seat-of-the-pants "popo-factor" as our Austrian friends called it! Only one vehicle could provide a hot shower in privacy afterwards though :)

Bigjerm

07-05-2011, 09:43 PM

Great example of this on a local ride this past weekend. Everything from a newer Dodge Powerwagon, Land Cruiser, Land Rover, some JK's, an Xterra and my LJ. My LJ is way more geared towards the rocks with the heavy tires, antirock on the softest setting, auto lockers, blah blah blah and I made every obstacle on the trip look like a joke while some other rigs struggled. But I promise between the obstacles and the trip to and from our meeting spot was much more enjoyable for everyone else but me! Also no room once I packed tools, spare parts, chairs, stove, camp table, cooler, ect because I keep my spare inside the Jeep for many reasons. So while I had amazing off road capability, I didn't have much in comfort or cargo.

Another example was the Mog in our group. Large and made the obstacles easy as well. BUT being as big as it was the driver had to watch the lines he took and go around some areas with low trees. Not to mention a very low top speed for on road travel.

1sweetvan

07-07-2011, 06:27 PM

Hilldweller

07-07-2011, 07:03 PM

VW Kombiwagen. For decades people traversed the globe and got pretty far off the beaten path with 2wd, 40 HP, air cooling, no A/C and minimal heat. Not to mention no Internet or GPS either. Sometimes, less is more.For some reason your post reminded me of these overlanders...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Xd_zkMEgkI

1sweetvan

07-07-2011, 10:16 PM

I'm not sure why my post reminded you of that, but it was a good laugh after a very long day. Thanks.

Hilldweller

07-08-2011, 09:32 AM

I'm not sure why my post reminded you of that, but it was a good laugh after a very long day. Thanks.
It was the getting back to basics theme.
We do tend to get lost in our quest for farkles and comfort and forget that a good fire and sleeping bag will carry you through.

I can remember VW bus camping too. Struggling up little hills in the Poconos, getting passed by bicycles...

1sweetvan

08-04-2011, 05:40 PM

All you really need is a good Crown Victoria. Just google" Crown Victoria Moab"

RoosterBooster

08-22-2011, 05:32 AM

wow... reading some of the posts in this thread made me feel a lot better about my idea to not bother (with the expense, reduced comfort and fuel economy) of a driven front axle on my next Rig
(however , i plan on a fully locked rear end).
as others pointed out flexible suspension, tire size, belly clearance & armor as well as excellent approach and departure angle are more important for long distance travel.
in some of my past adventures i actually found myself in more trouble when i drove with "no problem ... i have 4wd" in mind.
i think you get "too comfortable" with the ability of your vehicle and take more unneeded risk (or use less common sense lol )
... a fully locked rear and a carefully picked line gets you already in a lot of remote places:smiley_drive:

btw
my new project started out as a mainly "on road" MDT based long distance Tow/Travel rig ... but then i made the mistake and followed a link to over here and started reading....
now i got the bug (again) to travel and explore more of the (remote) beauty of America... and adjust my rig plan accordingly :safari-rig:

AmericaOverland

08-24-2011, 07:42 PM

Be honest there is also a degree of image in these activities.....

You know, like those "individuals" who ride Harley's, but look the same
Expo people who dress and outfit the same......

There's that... I dress that way because I like to be comfortable, and my job allows me to do that. After all, I work for REI. You could say it's a reflection of my feelings and my life story. My feeling about expo clothes is that I feel like I'm always "adventure ready," and I don't feel that way when I have to dress to the nines. In fact, I feel vulnerable and trapped. I want to get out and play. My life story is about being able to do something just because I can and ignore people saying, "You can't this, you can't that." My clothes remind me to think "Let's do it." My dress clothes remind me, "You are ordered to do this and that. You must do this and that." Not to mention they aren't comfortable, especially the pumps. Try outrunning a bear or climbing a tree out of his reach in those shoes!

Fortunately, I have the right reason for wearing them. I don't care what anybody thinks.

AmericaOverland

08-24-2011, 07:48 PM

I'm not sure why my post reminded you of that, but it was a good laugh after a very long day. Thanks.

X2 minus the very long day. I'm off today. :sombrero:

RoosterBooster

08-25-2011, 01:28 AM

i actually have also a story to share (sorry, may has some bad English; its not my native language):

we was on a tour in the French/Italian Alps (exploring the WW1 mountaintop heavy gun fortresses that have been places of extended and fierce battles... before the invention of the bomber airplane a mountain top fortress was next to impossible to take)
i was the only 4x4 with my jeep wrangler (the rest of the group was enduro bikes; my brother on his Bimmer and friends on XT`s and KTM`s ... and naturally i was carrying all the extra luggage for them so they could enjoy fairly light bikes :rolleyes:)
my jeep was all tricked out with lockers and big tires and we climbed towards one of the peaks on a badly washed out WW1 road with lots of tunnels (some with completely ice covered tracks) and some short snow sections ....
so after a challenging climb we finally arrive at the top fortress and i feel like the king of the world to have made the peak :wings:

.... only to find a Italian family at a picnic :coffee: ... next to a old Fiat sedan :Wow1:

they told us that whenever they got stuck they got out and lifted the little Fiat off the rock and went on... and simply pushed it over the snow sections
crazy Italians :smiley_drive:

craig333

08-25-2011, 02:07 AM

Great story. Had me roflmao.

GroupSe7en

09-06-2011, 02:03 AM

This is a topic that my family has been bashing away at for months now!

Where we're going is all on roads - really crappy roads, but roads, none the less. We want to go back to Newfoundland and Labrador; see Alaska, that sort of thing.

The equation is a little bit skewed for us - living in southern Florida means that you've got to drive a couple of thousand miles of interstate just to get to the start of a trip. At a Mog's 5mpg, that can get expensive very fast - not to mention having to allocate days and days and days to do it at a Mog's pace.

(not trying to slam a Mog - just using it as an example of the extreme end of the off-road scale)

We're seriously considering an Isuzu FTR with a hard-sided pop up. The current plan is to try to figure out how to get a locker onto the rear; 40's on 22.5 super singles; winches (with ground anchor) front and rear (just in case) - and go. We were even dreaming about strapping a diesel 4-passenger ATV onto the back to go out into the boonies exploring.

We did the Trans-Lab last summer in out Ridgeline (towing a pop-up trailer) and didn't use the 4wd once.

The only serious problem with our idea is that we'd really, really, really love to go to Iceland. But, it looks like you need serious 4wd just to go to the store for a quart of milk up there ;-)

Now, the thing I'm trying to figure out is if we could get the running gear from an FTS and graft it onto our FTR.

The thing that we like about the FTR (among all of it's other great qualities) is that you're up above things and you've got a great view. Plus, being above things is a good idea with the way they drive down here in FL.

I'd be interested in hearing opinions...

Cheers,
Mark

mervifwdc

09-06-2011, 06:44 AM

craig333

09-06-2011, 08:50 AM

Done the same, But without 4wd i couldn't have made it out. Also been stupidly stuck three times where 4wd would have made the difference. If you're like me and just have to see "whats down this road" you need more vehicle. Smart enough to turn around and you can get away with a lot less.

grizzlyj

09-14-2011, 04:03 PM

At a Mog's 5mpg, that can get expensive very fast - not to mention having to allocate days and days and days to do it at a Mog's pace.

The only serious problem with our idea is that we'd really, really, really love to go to Iceland. But, it looks like you need serious 4wd just to go to the store for a quart of milk up there ;-)

I'd be interested in hearing opinions...

Cheers,
Mark

Hi

My U1700 camper Moglet weighs 9500kg and returns 10 UK mpg. It will sit at 55mph just, not on hills though. The speed limit for me where I am now in Iceland is 50mph anyway, same as Denmark, Germany and Belgium getting here. In Iceland its 55mph max for everything smaller too :) We have been into the interior of Iceland in the last few weeks, until forecast rain actually fell as snow, drifting in a few places on the road to 4' deep overnight. Since we have a mog naturally we blasted through ;) Hired Suzuki Jimnys and Grand Vitaras just (illegally) drove off the track to go round the deep bits. Only as far as Askja though, further south it got too deep to be sensible for everyone.

You can go on a trip into the highland centre in a "super jeep" which some do (maybe those who have only hired a normal car for their trip), one from Myvatn where I am now is 27500 Krona per person to Askja and back (http://www.geotravel.is/). But until the snow that same route (F88 then F910) was full of hired showroom fresh Suzukis on standard tyres. The corrugations are so bad nearly everywhere I'd rather be driving someone elses wheels though! The deeper snow stopped that superjeep shy of where we'd got to on 395 Mog tyres aired down. Much later in the year and I doubt the superjeep would venture out depending what the snow was like. As far as I know the roads do all close in the centre for a lot of the year. Up onto the glaciers would I think be super jeep only with a decent guide.

Leaving the road, wether tarmac or gravel, anywhere is not allowed since your tyre tracks will remain for decades.

So any track designated with an F infront of the number is proper 4x4s only, not a Subaru for instance, but they are still just roads so no super capability is required. I had engaged 4x4 as a precaution only through fords until the snow came. One track we found by chance and wasn't on the map, and a sign said 35" tyres and bigger only, but fairly standard Landies managed fine that passed us. Off tarmac we are slow!! But then a Landrover isn't carrying a luxurious house ;)

http://www.vegagerdin.is/english/road-conditions-and-weather/the-entire-country/island1e.html

I think 4x4s only on the rougher tracks is so your car doesn't disintergrate on the bumps! Or if the weather turns then you are stuck without decent clearance and 4x4 a long way from help.

There are quite a few 4x4 pickups with dismountable campers around from hire companies which seem a good idea since camping is cheap and flexible but with enough capability to get around weather permitting;

http://www.holdur.is/en/page/4x4_campers_and_motorhomes/

The (only) ferry to Iceland from Hirtshalls in Denmark has I think 2 fares for campervans, over or under 2.5m high, 2500 or 2000 Euros respectively with a cabin. Not cheap! http://www.smyrilline.com/Frontpage.aspx And the season is really short, maybe 2 months, outside of which the more remote roads will close as the F910 did after we left last week.

Its a truely amazing place though. This current campsite is on a lavabed, theres steam billowing out of the ground a mile away, and hot mud pools 2 miles away, while farms in the south have been evacuated due to the local seismic activity. Some lava is ancient, some near Askja we drove over is only 60 years old, thats young rock! North of Dettifoss is a canyon called Asbyrgi, 100m deep and 500m wide carved out around 2500 years ago in about 3 days after an eruption under the big glacier Vatnajokull caused a big chunk of ice to melt and rush about 200km across the country north to the sea. Seyðisfjörður is where the Europe ferry docks, and has a church dating only from 1922 after the old one got blown away, next to a sculpture of twisted steel girders from a building destroyed in an avalance. Icelands weather website shows recent earthquakes http://en.vedur.is/#tab=skjalftar Bonkers.

Only partly on topic seems to be normal for me at the moment, sorry! :)

Our trip so far http://www.iceland.moglet.co.uk/

Tony LEE

09-17-2011, 02:27 AM

Iceland is probably one of the examples where extreme trucks do better. A regular 2wd motorhome can, and have, compled multi-week trips around the whole of the Island, but, only what they call "super 4x4" i.e. high ground clearance 4x4's can go into the centre.

It is a long way to go just to do some extreme driving. We went to see the scenery - in a 6.5m Hobby MH. Front-wheel drive Ford chassis. Went around the outside but also drove down F35 top to bottom and of course while we didn't have the major glacial river crossings of the other central highways, we did see a good selection of the interior. If we were prepared to turn around at the rivers and retrace our steps, we were told we could get along a fair proportion of the interior roads.

200 or so km of roughish gravel roads well travelled by walkers and cyclists as well as the occasional sedan and of course the 4WDs with big wheels.

As for them blasting us off the road - local suggested we do what they do. Sit right in the middle of the road until they also slow down to a crawl and then move back to the right with a smile and a cheerful wave. Less chance of windscreen damage that way

Ozarker

09-17-2011, 03:03 PM

I am thinking of an Alaska trip and making it a big cicrle around the country. Inspired by this site, thank you.

As to the vehile, I have looked at different parts of the world and my intended stomping grounds. When I see pictures of expo locations, like a pick taken near other vehicles, I look at the other vehicles. I look for what the locals are driving.

Looking at the Alaska highway, I see lots of standard 4x4s, pickups and sedans as well as low riding RVs. One car was a dodge colt buzzing along. So,my conclusion is that you can get to most places on this earth by going slower and perhaps more carefully without a 6" lift, lockers and 6 driving lights on the roof. I think the right tires for the trip will be the first thing to address.

I have decided that if there is a hill of rocks I need to go up and see what's over that hill, I can climb it, or ride my dual sport, I don't "need" to take my F-150 up there. In stock condition, it will already take me many places a dodge colt can't go.

So IMO, it depends on what your "needs" really are. Doing a little terrain intelligence and recon work of the areas you want to travel will tell you alot. :ylsmoke:

bob91yj

09-18-2011, 06:13 PM

That's a great observation!

There was a similar discussion on another forum about vehicle requirements for a Baja trip. I pointed out that the locals do just fine down there in their clapped out '86 Toyota Corolla, with bald tires, engine hitting on 3 cylinder's, and a family of 6 inside. Makes me feel kind of silly rolling by them in my LJ Rubicon with $10,000 in mods to make it "Baja ready".

One of my favorite stories is someone asking if a 2wd full size could get to Guadalupe Canyon in Baja. I knew my LJ could, but wasn't sure how my truck would do if I hit deep sand or a silt bed. Our next trip, we took the truck, made it in 2wd with no problem...just after getting to camp, opening a beer and being proud of my accomplishment, we heard what sounded like a car trying to get up a slick smooth rocky area just as you get into the campground. I took a look down the hill to see what was going on...a family of 8 in a Ford Taurus wagon that had seen better days was arriving...they were laughing and joking as some of them helped push the car up the slick spot. I went for a long soak in the hot tub with a cold cerveza to ponder the ways of the world...

dzzz

09-20-2011, 03:52 PM

The equation is a little bit skewed for us - living in southern Florida means that you've got to drive a couple of thousand miles of interstate just to get to the start of a trip. At a Mog's 5mpg, that can get expensive very fast - not to mention having to allocate days and days and days to do it at a Mog's pace.

I'm storing my camper 2500 miles from home (Chicago). Many people in the storage facility I use are not local to that area. In fact some do not even live in the country. There are many Florida owners storing their RV/Campers on the west coast. Although admittedly many are retired and spending the summer in the west.
I'm mostly positive so far on remote storage. It does take more planning. Since my vehicle wouldn't fit on my property at home I actually save storage costs keeping it in the west.

ObGobOobaleeney

09-20-2011, 04:05 PM

I very successfully drove my 1999 Tacoma V6 xtracab 4x4 off road bone stock for nine years before upgrading suspension and tires, likely locking the rear axle soon. I can't go many of my favorite places without 4wd, and I've tried (got horribly stuck once years ago pushing my luck in that department-- and only lockers and 4wd would have saved me then) I would never buy a 2wd truck, but the big campers are a whole nutha ball of discussion I suppose. Cross that bridge if and when....

GR8ADV

09-20-2011, 04:48 PM

Great discussion, albeit an ancient thread. Many times the added off road ability simply allows one to continue, and sometimes continue with more comfort, and less worry. I made a trip to the Arctic last summer on a well equiped moto. Could I have done it on a Harley bagger? Yes, but slower, and I would have had to have been much more carerful, with the terrain/weather dictating the trip. As it was I could blast over the Dempster at 60 mph and catch a pot-hole. I would not have wanted to do that on a Gold Wing. Although I did not crash, the bike is outfitted to survive that (within reason) with extra protection to get back up and keep me going. Did I need it, not on this trip, but like insurance or firemen, you don't need it til ya need it.

On a trip in the Taco last month I came across a huge washout from the heavy winter rains that my stock 4 runner 'might' have made it through. Well maybe, but no way I would have attempted it; I would have turned back. The Taco, with the added off road ability made it through no problems (other than a few pucker moments for me). So the extra off road 'stuff' was well appreciated; not to mention fun.

All my vehicles for 'on road' travel are all AWD/4WD. Do they have to be, no, but be it rain, snow or whatever, I can go where I want, when I want, and the weather/road/terrain does not dictate the call. I can't imagine having to stay put because there is a foot of snow on the road; where's the fun in that! Same for off road for me. Build in 'freedom' with suspension, clearance, tires, protection, traction, etc, and I decide where to go and when. Now add in a RTT, shower, PETT, and fridge and I will C U there.

Lynn

09-21-2011, 11:37 PM

Can't believe it's been nearly four years since I started this thread.

Personally, I found the old 'expedition campers' forum when I was dreaming about building an RV. And that forum rolled into this one.

Having spent so much time on these forums, I truly suspect that I don't NEED 4x4 for the kind of adventures I want to take my family on. Yet I WANT a really macho go-everywhere rig.

So periodically I pull my 'capable rig' definition down to just a strong, reliable chassis, with 4x4 just in case...

Lynn

RoosterBooster

09-22-2011, 09:09 PM

IMHO
good offroad capability does not always demand 4x4 ... or to put it in different words ;
4X4 does not always increase offroad capability
on a SUV or Pickup (that has minimal changes between 2wd and 4wd) it is may not so noticeable as it is with a larger Rig (that is converted to 4wd).
if you need to lift the rig (so the driven front axle clears the engine/oilpan) you greatly reduce offroad capability by raising the CofG.
the driven axle increases available traction but on the other hand also raises un-suspended mass ... sometimes to the point that suspension performance (and comfort) is badly compromised = reduced offroad capability.

this are some of the reasons why i do not plan on a 4X4 conversion on my project rig ...
i do not see the point of lumbering around with a heavy front axle (and T-case) in a high profile rig 99.9% of the time just to have more traction in the .1% of time i really need it.
i rather concentrate (and spend some of the saved conversion money) towards suspension refinement (like first class shocks), good (large) tires, a fully lockable rear end and to clean up the approach/belly/departure clearance as well as adding skidplates where needed.
after all a camper rig is not a rock crawler ... so for what i plan to do i rather have a low profile rig (so i can take sidehill sections without fear of tipping the whale on its side)
and have a comfortable suspension that allows me to keep up the momentum in rough sections (instead of crawling thru it)

however, just my opinion .... others may vary :coffee:

charlieaarons

09-22-2011, 10:34 PM

The speed reduction with a transfer case is an enormous safety factor and traction enhancer.
And if you really NEED 4wd 0.1% of the time (like getting to that campsite around behind that rock or hill that's not visible from the road) you will need it, especially if you get stuck trying to get there.

Charlie

RoosterBooster

09-23-2011, 12:49 AM

charlieaarons

09-23-2011, 01:44 AM

getting a little contrived I think....

Charlie

UK4X4

09-23-2011, 03:47 AM

Most of the world is covered by roads..
yep a few pot holes and a few missing sections of tarmac

The rest can be quite comfortably transited by a 3 wheel Tuk tuk

Alaska to as far south as you want can be driven in any 2 wheel drive vehicle

want to visit some of the more remote areas and odd desert - yes 4x4 would be nice

Africa- hell they drive peugeut 405's from europe down as far as South africa

realisticly yep better in a 4x4 due to the average road conditions being a tad worse - but saying that, a gravel track can be traversed by either vehicle.

Personally I like 4x4 and the option of visiting the more remote areas- does it cost me more - yes - but I still like the independance of being able to negotiate the muddy tracks often found on the remote beaches,mountains or deserts.

I prefer the empty beach rather than the full one.

RoosterBooster

09-23-2011, 05:42 AM

The speed reduction with a transfer case is an enormous safety factor and traction enhancer.

Charlie

your right ; that is a little contrived :ylsmoke:
never seen a T-case reduction gear that enhances traction :Wow1: (unless you throw the gears under the tires when they are slipping lol )

kidding aside ; this would be a interesting feature for a overlander rig ; http://eztracawd.weebly.com/features.html
http://eztracawd.weebly.com/uploads/7/3/6/2/7362507/7188605.jpg?261
hydraulic driven front hubs for the occasional use without the high ride and a lot of extra weigth ...
need to find out how much $$ that setup would be

Ray Hyland

09-23-2011, 05:42 AM

My wife doesn't like to get out and push.

So we have 4WD.

:)

charlieaarons

09-23-2011, 05:54 AM

your right ; that is a little contrived :ylsmoke:
never seen a T-case reduction gear that enhances traction :Wow1: (unless you throw the gears under the tires when they are slipping lol )

Never seen a transfer case that enhances traction? What about the 4WD part of the contraption?
I'm done with you and your sarcasm.

Charlie

dzzz

09-23-2011, 03:11 PM

Most of the world is covered by roads..
.............

.........which are sometimes covered in snow.
But I do agree that 4x4 is overemphasized here in larger vehicle. Not that it's not potentially useful of course. Just that in North America there are so few choices. On a lower cost build of a bigger vehicle many people would do just fine with 2wd.
That said, I've been in situations several times in the Rockies where 2wd would have meant going no further in bad conditions. I don't like winter travel much, but winter can sometimes arrive unexpectedly.
I like sitting up high too, which is generally a 4x4 characteristic.

dzzz

09-23-2011, 03:14 PM

what IF there is a sidehill and you tip your high roller on its side trying to get to that campside :ylsmoke:

I bet a unicat is less tippy than a shorter raised homebuilt.

westyss

09-23-2011, 07:54 PM

This topic is again one of those "personal decision" items, where depending on what you ask of your vehicle and what kind of terrain you travel and many more factors. The simple fact is that you (who ever it may be ) will want a vehicle suited to you! Not someone else, I selected the vehicle of 'my' choice for 'me' and 'my' family!
For 'me', I got a little tired of getting stuck when I tried to get to those places I like to get to, even if it was at the end of 99,9% pavement, now I get to that spot without worry, easy decision for me, cost, well that is all relative, save money, dont go any where!

762X39

09-23-2011, 09:20 PM

Well I guess I'll wade into the the discussion and controversy with my views...:ylsmoke:
I typically travel about 60,000km per year (average since I have been keeping track in 2002). Some of it is work related (and I get to go to places I want to visit :)) and some of it is for pleasure.
Mostly, a 2wd pickup is enough to get everywhere reasonable. Both of my pickups have rear lockers or limited slips and I know enough to say when.
For the difficult times, 4wd and a transfer case come in handy.The transfer case gives you the option of control (low range can be helpful) while a driven front axle gives you a bit more traction (although decent LT tires help too). I also happen to own a Unimog for those times that a nice slow drive down secondary roads and trips to the end of the road are in my plans.
I think a selectable rear locker and skid-plates should be mandatory but everything else is optional...:coffee:

Ray Hyland

09-24-2011, 03:43 AM

For the sake of discussion, I am going to be deliberately obtuse, and ask a question.

Why doesn't anyone (other than the guys who work for the phone company) have a winch on a 2WD vehicle?

762X39

09-24-2011, 06:06 PM

Why doesn't anyone (other than the guys who work for the phone company) have a winch on a 2WD vehicle?
This is an excellent question!
I have seriously considered a winch on my 2wd trucks but found that a locker or limited slip, skid plates as required, good tires, good sense and recovery points as well as a shovel and jackall have negated my need for a winch (always know when to say when). Loosing the "give er" or "git er done" attitude is also essential.:coffee:

RoosterBooster

09-24-2011, 06:37 PM

This is an excellent question!
I have seriously considered a winch on my 2wd trucks but found that a locker or limited slip, skid plates as required, good tires, good sense and recovery points as well as a shovel and jackall have negated my need for a winch (always know when to say when). Loosing the "give er" or "git er done" attitude is also essential.:coffee:

X2

in my jeep touring/rock crawling days i strictly refused to ever use/carry a winch. in my opinion it is against the purpose (or challenge) of 4-wheeling; if i cant make it with finesse, skill and 4 wheels i dont want a gadget doing it for me.
maybe you could argue that it is good insurance to "be prepared" and have a winch ...
but i believe in "if i fail (judgement, driving skill, ...) and get stuck i may as well pay for it and work to get back out"
again; my opinion ...

762X39

09-24-2011, 09:01 PM

X2

i strictly refused to ever use/carry a winch. in my opinion it is against the purpose
again; my opinion ...

You have an interesting viewpoint.
I don't believe that carrying and or using a winch is cheating in any way shape or form on an overland vehicle.Since the original question was "how much...is enough" we are all posting our opinions on how much is enough for us.
If my travels are at the time of year when getting stuck means dying, I temper my adventures to make survival 99% likely (100% is not possible). If I am spending a week in the bush with Katherine and our 70's vintage trailer (we just got back from a week in Temagami where she learned to fish and likes it), there will be no unspoken boundaries crossed and the adventure will be pleasant for all occupants of the truck. "How much... is enough" is a moving target that has no room for arbitrary choices but must be based on need, financial ability and your personal reality.:coffee:

RoosterBooster

09-24-2011, 10:28 PM

lol... yes, your right; pleasure crawling and overlanding are two different things (however, i mixed them more then just a couple times)
i agree that a winch is not always cheating ... but in my case it would need to be a really big winch to be useful (MDTruck)...
a heavy big winch.... or maybe two :Wow1: (a 20klbs winch is not easy to moved from the front to the rear) ...with heavy big power leads to the front and rear ...or a second battery bank in the rear ...or a heavy hydro pump and lines ... or a pulley system ... or...
where do you stop ???

so for me it comes down to picking between being as light and nimble as possible (and may not get stuck as easy as a heavy loaded rig :P) or carrying recovery gear for every occasion.

i agree; $$ is a huge factor as well... i rather travel and enjoy a simple & affordable rig then sitting at home and figure out how i can afford the diesel after paying for all the gadgets (been there, tired of that :rolleyes:)

after discovering that some peeps on this forum have a thin skin i may add this (again) ;
"Warning; this post is MY personal opinion, others may vary " :coffee:

westyss

09-26-2011, 03:23 AM

I mounted a 2" hitch reciever for a winch on my westy, complicated install and never used it, before I put it on I got stuck and missed an important appointment, its like carrying an umbrella so that it doesn't rain!

dzzz

09-26-2011, 03:06 PM

Here's a blog post talking about the attractiveness of high clearance and durability in Tibet and China. Not so much 4x4. Although the writer doesn't seem to consider that there may be choices between euro campervan and unimog.

http://www.xor.org.uk/silkroute/china2002/20021012.htm

DiploStrat

09-29-2011, 04:29 AM

For the sake of discussion, I am going to be deliberately obtuse, and ask a question.

Why doesn't anyone (other than the guys who work for the phone company) have a winch on a 2WD vehicle?

Actually, back in the 70's I saw a Dodge 4x2 van in Ecuador with a winch on the front. And years ago, MacPherson Chevrolet had a lifted 4x2 Chevrolet van with a limited slip. It was a slightly de-rated 3/4 model.

The biggest issues with a winch are weight and lack of a place to winch from.

RoosterBooster

09-29-2011, 03:33 PM

... The biggest issues with a winch are weight and lack of a place to winch from.

x2

besides if you have a Truck (and a couple recovery straps) you already have a very powerful winch (without extra weight).
on a DRW you simply wrap the strap between the tires (on a SRW you use the exposed drum)

i used that old military trick not too long ago when our driveway (abandoned RR grade) was damaged from heavy rain;
while dragging the grading blade my bro slipped our Pete in the ditch when a softened part of the grade collapsed under the weight .
frontend up to the axle in mud, truck on a bad angle, no diff lock, no winch, nothing to winch from.
so after some headscratching we did the "strap-wrap" trick on the tires helplessly spinning in the air (and a 4x4 parked sideways on the other side of the elevated grade as a strap point)

with a very careful gas pedal foot (a 14 liter Cummins with 1600 lbs of torque is a grossly powerfull winch :Wow1:)
and dragging the 4x4 up and halfway across the railroad grade we got the Pete out of the ditch :smiley_drive:

however, prying the tight strap out of between the dually rims was a pain :eek:

Iain_U1250

10-11-2011, 10:12 PM

I bought a Unimog so I get to places that normally only the little cars like Land Rovers and Land cruiser get to - but I can camp with a fair amount of luxury. :)

Buliwyf

11-25-2011, 07:12 AM

what IF there is a sidehill and you tip your high roller on its side trying to get to that campside :ylsmoke:

there is always a "what IF" :)

not trying to argue ... after all everybody is entitled to his opinion ;)

Not really a practical problem, is that? Even a heavy pickup truck with 4-6" of lift needs to be tilted over a whole lot more than any off camber sidehill turn I've seen. I mean we're talking way more than 45 degrees. I don't know too many expo drivers that don't chicken out beyond a safe 35 degrees. Your not going to find too many trails with sideways slopes that steep. Maybe what? One or two in the entire US? Only 4x4's I've seen rollover were Jeep Wranglers offroad playing and trying to beat the hardest line they could find. Not many campsites require off roading that extreme. LOLz.

I also prefer a hilift jack and a shovel to winching. Usually I only need a little help to get going again. And just flopping the truck over a foot or two deos the trick. But I'm usually 4x4, and locked in the rear. While my work truck is a pathetic 2wd and is usually only 2" deep when it gets stuck. Both need not require winches as long as you have the rest of the available self recovery gear. IE highlift, shovel, 3/8" chain, 4x4 blocks of word or ramps, etc etc.

All too often there is nothing within 100' to connect a winch line onto. And burying a spare tire takes forever. It really depends on how often you get stuck, and where you get stuck at, that determins whether or not you need a winch.

sniderexciderr

12-03-2011, 10:56 AM

i would have to say that if a person was considering minimal upgrades that would be the most useful. i would go with a small lift just enough to get tires maybe a size or two taller for clearance under armor and maybe some bumpers that will increase your approach/egress angle. traction, clearance and driving ability is really all there is to it. i usually end up stuck by the bumpers or not able to get any traction. winches and lockers are things that are like a concealed weapon, a lifesaver if you find yourself in a bind. but i have been fine with a good strap and a buddy to give me a tug so far.

Karma

12-03-2011, 02:12 PM

HI All,
What a great thread! I feel completely out of place here in the face of the huge amount of accumulated experience. But I wanted to get my story into the mix.

In the year 2000 I bought a red 1989 258 Cu In straight 6, red soft top Jeep YJ Wrangler with a manual 5 speed - cheap. It did not run but the significant vehicle elements were OK. With a lot of work and not much money I got it road capable again. I basically fixed all the little things to bring it back to stock capability. It had been badly neglected. I had no thoughts beyond tripping down rough roads in pretty places and use 4WD only when necessary. My Jeep was completely stock except for a Warn 8274 winch which I inherited. Then I made a pivotal decision to join the local Jeep club. BTW, at the time I was 59 years old, too old for major mechanics work-Right? Not quite as I found out later.

The club turned out to be a major eye opener. Here was a group of people for which their Jeep was a hobby and tough trails the goal. My Jeep was always bringing up the rear, often needing a winch tug, and there were many trails where I was not allowed to participate. I grew frustrated and more ambitious. And I was learning about vehicle modifications. I then faced the question of what did I actually want. I decided that rock crawling was not my goal. But I wanted my Jeep to not limit my destinations. A compromise was necessary. One can make many modifications that are neutral of the goal. Moderate lifts, front and rear ARB's, lots of skid plates, body protection where necessary, good tires, low gearing in the transfer case. I fuel injected the engine (a major improvement), improved the cooling system, installed a hydraulic assist brake system. I was getting in pretty deep and my goal was not yet definitely defined but coming into focus.

I decided I wanted a Jeep that was based on an expedition model. This is an ambitious goal for a Jeep Wrangler. It is a very small vehicle. So I set a goal. I wanted a technical capability that would not limit my destinations, be capable of supporting a week long venture without any support except for gas, be reasonably comfortable, be self contained, be reliable, be organized, and be a beast on very rough trails. Everything hinged on creating storage space. This was not easy. Not very many Wranglers are used or designed for extended trips because it is so small. Note that I travel alone; not married and no kids. But I really liked its small size. It's a wonder on trails. The challenge became whether I could accomplish my goals with a Wrangler. I note on this thread no one is using a Jeep Wrangler. Your needs are different. Your vehicle choices will be different.

I don't want to bore with all the bloody details. Suffice it to say that I accomplished my goals. True, I don't have an out of the weather situation that you would get with a camper or van. I admire those set ups. I must camp. Not ideal in my view but definitely enjoyable. I can carry two each gas and water Gerry cans. My equipment is mostly stored on a top rack in four Pelican cases with home made custom clamps where I also carry a Pull Pal, a collapsible ladder for roof access, a roll-up camp table and four Gerry cans. All items that can be made inoperable by water, such as clothes, sleeping bags, self-inflating mattress, tent, etc., are stored inside the Jeep. Generally, I use simple camping gear that is easy to set up and take down. For example, my tent is a Kamp-rite Collapsible Combo tent cot. But, don't misunderstand, I like my comforts. Table and chairs are all present as well as a capable cooking ability. My ARB Freezer/Fridge gives me food options. The Pelican cases are amazing. I have never seen either a drop of water nor a grain of sand inside them. And I have been in some nasty weather. My Serius Sat radio is the cherry on top of the pie.

So, is this an expedition vehicle? I don't know. Compared to what you folks are using it is not. However, I have no trouble taking trips of indefinite lengths, to inaccessible places, in reasonable comfort and efficiency. I like it a lot. I have had a lot of comments from other Wrangler owners indicating they did not think it could be done. But, I'm proof-it can be done - in some sort of style.

Sparky