(rant warning:) Need a reason to stop buying Chinese "Knock-offs"?

[expeditionswest]

Go to this webpage: (http://www.t-choice.cn/proinfo.asp?pl_id=72863&m_id=15514&m_id)

If this does not make you change your purchasing philosophy regarding Chinese "Knock-offs" and the direct attack on intelectual property of innovators, than I don't know what will.

This specific company (T-Choice Trailers) has directly ripped photographs, media and design, with no attempt to compensate to original designers...

They stole images of someone else's product and PHOTOCHOPPED their name on the side.

http://www.easthardware.com/product_image_7/20071211235559224.jpg

This directly hits home to our hobby and the things we enjoy. If they can just steal someone elses ideas, images and marketing, without even an attempt (other than photoshop) to innovate themselves, it will crush innovation in our segment. Sure, that $600 Chinese roof tent looks like a GREAT DEAL, but that is because the company selling it had NO ENGINEERING, TESTING or DEVELOPMENT costs. They just buy a tent they like, ship it to the factory and tell them to make a copy. Where is the reward to someone for coming up with new, interesting ideas?

http://www.easthardware.com/product_image_7/20071117842104024.jpg

So the next time you save a couple bucks buying a knock-off, think of the real cost to our hobby and in this case even the people that support and are members of our community!

:gunt:

[Colorado Ron]

Thats just bull! I guess there is no way to stop it either?

[expeditionswest]

Thats just bull! I guess there is no way to stop it either?

Sure there is... With you pocketbook :)

Look for the little sticker that says "made in china" and move on the next product if possible. Textiles and footwear are almost impossible to avoid, but nearly everything else is.

They are of course exceptions to every rule (like Apple, who makes great products and profits, yet manufactures in China).

I think we all just need to be informed and discerning buyers. Save for a little bit longer and buy the best, from a true craftsman, innovator or designer. It is so worth the wait!

[olympiccop2002]

I think it's crazy what the Chinese get away with! What a ripoff!

Bjorn

[MaddBaggins]

You have got to be kidding me!!!! If I was Mario and Martyn I would not be a very happy camper right now. That just plain sucks!
I'm with you Scott, I'm watching my purchases very closely from now on.

Proud owner of a REAL Adventure Trailer

[BMAN]

WTF IS THIS???




"Thank website that you visit our company!Please tell us to the interested in or satisfied product line, we would on time reply in you, combine can according to your request the superior price of report.At the same time if you develop in the product to us, the technique index sign, external appearance designs to have the suggestion with after-sales service etc. everyone's, welcoming you contact us!"


Looks like Engrish, but sure doesn't read like Engrish.

This one kinda pisses me off. My thoughts on the whole boycott China thing are super loose and "liberal" (for lack of a better term) than a lot of people on the boards I frequent. This one kinda chaps my ***** a little more than others as it's a blatant rip off of someone I know and respect from a hobby I love.

I've been looking at most of my purchases as of late and noticed a managerie of countries of origin. China of course being the leader. An all out boycott of Chinese products? I am unlikely to do this. A marked effort to buy less Chinese? I'm rethinking my position on this lately.

[theexile]

:mad:

[Bergger]

WTF IS THIS???




"Thank website that you visit our company!Please tell us to the interested in or satisfied product line, we would on time reply in you, combine can according to your request the superior price of report.At the same time if you develop in the product to us, the technique index sign, external appearance designs to have the suggestion with after-sales service etc. everyone's, welcoming you contact us!"


Looks like Engrish, but sure doesn't read like Engrish.



Wow! I don't even know why I sent my ranting email to them. They probably won't even be able to understand it!

[jeffryscott]

wow. I went and took a quick look at the http://www.made-in-china.com/ site and you can find nearly anything. There are a slew of 12v fridges available ...

True crafts people like Mario and crew are an endangered species as the Wal-Martization of this country continue. Whatever happened to Sam Walton's mantra of made in the USA? (oh, I know, he died and profits trumped made in the USA)

[dennisuello]

I have been contacted by these guys (http://www.cnwinch.com/) before about advertising their winches on my site. Doesn't look like they ripped pics off, but I suspect a lot of reverse engineering went into their products.

[Joaquin Suave]

The fact is there is a silver lining...Its called the "flavor of the month club"!

Meaning by the time the Asians (name the country, name the product), actually get their items to market...trends have changed & the only people that are in posession of the JUNK (from the named country, and of the speciffic product line) are the putzes that thought that they were getting an equal product for cheaper than their buddies!

There is a company in one of the "extreme sports" that opted NOT to go to Asia in the 90's when all their peers were "hopping on the boat". That company now, is one of the only American manufactures left (thought they mostly cater to the areospace & scientific industries), and old products (used) from said company garners 300% to 400% from collectors on E-bay.

IMHO: It is ALL ABOUT brand recognition & legacy! The people with the passion and guts to inovate ALWAYS remain on top! Though, they might just have to re-invent themselves a few times over the years to stay there.

[tdesanto]

WTF IS THIS???




"Thank website that you visit our company!Please tell us to the interested in or satisfied product line, we would on time reply in you, combine can according to your request the superior price of report.At the same time if you develop in the product to us, the technique index sign, external appearance designs to have the suggestion with after-sales service etc. everyone's, welcoming you contact us!"


Looks like Engrish, but sure doesn't read like Engrish.


I suspect their QA and support are probably on par with their English. I am totally against these rip-offs.

[Martyn]

This concerns us at AT in that the web site in question is posting pictures of "real" trailers from well known off road trailer manufacturers. There doesn't seem to be any product of their own yet, in the off road category, so I'd imagine they haven't produced anything, or they are just testing the waters to see if anyone bites.

Reverse engineering happens! We have seen it here in the USA in the off road trailer market, http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10137&highlight=tentrax China just happens to be the biggest offender.

It's hard for us as a community to take the higher moral path in this scenario if we allow the debate to slowly lower it's tone and the debate to change into a racial rant. I have the greatest respect for the Chinese nation and people from Asia.

We have e mailed the company in China and asked them to remove the images of our trailers. I will keep you updated on any replies we get.

[cruiseroutfit]

Sad, yet not surprising... SEMA this year really struck a chord with me. I had never seen so many ways to build the same Chinese winch ;) And all these companies are stepping up & bringing them into the states.

[Clark White]

I especially like the yahoo e-mail account. Nothing against yahoo, but I seriously doubt a reputable company importing any quantity of expensive material (like 4x4 trailers that well equipped) would have a yahoo account as their only e-mail.

[AndrewP]

In the last year, I have attempted to avoid Chinese products when possible. It isn't always possible, though. A few examples:

Drill Press-I needed one-floor model, 1 HP, 3/4 chuck. Grizzly Tools has a Chinese one for $250. There basically are no USA makers that cater to the home shop crowd. If you want to pay $2000 and get a fine piece of machinery you can, but that just isn't realistic for a consumer. Used USA ones get snapped up in hours on Craig's list-I missed several old vetrans-looked like 60s manufacture and solid as a rock. Bottom line-I bought the China one.

Floor Jack-There are several old line USA makers of commercial floor jacks-the 2 ton models are fully rebuildable-they would last 50 years. Prices start around $1500. The Chinese 3 ton model is $79 on sale. Its crude, but it works, and when it dies you throw it away.

Angle grinder-I have a bunch. Harbor Freight chinese $17. USA made Milwaukee $100. Each Harbor Freight lasts about 1 year. The Milwaukee is solid, and rebuildable. The edge here goes to Milwaukee-no more HF angle grinders for me.

Grills-I needed a new camping grill-China propane grill--$20. Weber Grill-unclear where it's made-$70. Solaire USA made stainless grill-$300. This time I bought the Solaire. Very fine quality. Unfortunately you can't buy like that for everything.

These unfortunate numbers are real. I would be willing to pay a 50% premium on many items for high quality USA gear, but I'm not willing to pay 500% more for something I use infrequently.

[rjcj-8]

Grills-I needed a new camping grill-China propane grill--$20. Weber Grill-unclear where it's made-$70. Solaire USA made stainless grill-$300. This time I bought the Solaire. Very fine quality. Unfortunately you can't buy like that for everything.



Up in till last year or maybe 06 they were US made, in South GA.
In 06 or 07 they shut down their last US plant and moved every thing over seas if i recall correctly.

[dennisuello]

I especially like the yahoo e-mail account. Nothing against yahoo, but I seriously doubt a reputable company importing any quantity of expensive material (like 4x4 trailers that well equipped) would have a yahoo account as their only e-mail.

Since they have their domain, it's super easy to set up mail server as well.

[TACODOC]

This is not cool.

... imagine everyone's facial expression as you pull up to an ExPo run with your Chinese AT (Anti Trailer)...
:confused:

[DaveInDenver]

Floor Jack-There are several old line USA makers of commercial floor jacks-the 2 ton models are fully rebuildable-they would last 50 years. Prices start around $1500. The Chinese 3 ton model is $79 on sale. Its crude, but it works, and when it dies you throw it away.
I've got a Hein-Warner HW93642 2-ton floor jack that is USA made. They usually go for about $300 (I paid $275). What worried me when I was looking for a floor jack was that this sucker is rated 2 tons and looks every bit (or more) substantial than a 4 ton Chinese jack. It's all cast and beefy. Those Chinese ones are probably made really cheap and I don't want to die when one fails.

http://www.toolking.com/hein-wernerautomotive_hw93642.aspx

http://www.toolking.com/images/Products/bigsfHW93642.jpg

[DaveInDenver]

This one kinda pisses me off. My thoughts on the whole boycott China thing are super loose and "liberal" (for lack of a better term) than a lot of people on the boards I frequent. This one kinda chaps my ***** a little more than others as it's a blatant rip off of someone I know and respect from a hobby I love.

So it's OK that they rip off other stuff, but when it's someone you know then you get upset? They are stealing ideas from everyone and the only way to fight it is to buy nothing Chinese made until they stop ignoring patents and copyrights. I don't have an issue with imported products (geez Japanese truck, Italian skis and boots, etc.), I have an issue with illegal and unsafe crap. They are stealing technology like crazy and it's stuff that is far more critical to our way of life than a roof top tent. Don't feed the monster!

[jeffryscott]

Grills-I needed a new camping grill-China propane grill--$20. Weber Grill-unclear where it's made-$70. Solaire USA made stainless grill-$300. This time I bought the Solaire. Very fine quality. Unfortunately you can't buy like that for everything.

As far as I know, all Weber Grills are made in Palatine, Ill. My best friend from college works for the company (his dad started it) and it is still a family owned/run business. I'll double check with him to make sure, but they have fought hard not to either be bought out, or forced to China.

[VikingVince]

We need more information on copyright law. I'm not so sure that copying a design is an infringement of copyright law. I think it was about 10 years or so ago (probably longer) when Honda came out with the motorcycle that looked almost identically like a Harley. Harley sued and lost.

Does AT own a copyright on the design of their trailer? Probably not...they probably can't get a copyright on the design. I think Joaquin has a point that the ripoffs usually aren't up to the same quality and they aren't necessarily real competition to the American originals. The folk that buy the cheaper ripoffs would more than likely never buy the original anyway.

Copyright law is fairly complicated. For ex.,you can copyright a song (melody, music, and lyrics) but you can't copyright just a chord progression. There's a parallel here...they're copying the design or the "chord progression." Another example...all the Rolex watch ripoffs...it wouldn't be illegal at all if they just copied the design, but then putting the Rolex name on crosses the line.

Here's a thought: It's possible that the Chinese copying the AT design could actually boost sales for our AT friends!!

Did Honda's copy of the Harley hurt Harley Davidson? No. In fact, they experienced significant growth and their international recognition and sales grew. So having your design copied can sometimes be of benefit. (what's that old saying...imitation is the highest form of flattery...or something like that) I'm only referring here to copying of design...not theft of what is legitimately protected.

[olympiccop2002]

What if there is an exact copy of Expedition Portal in Chinese? Oh the horrors! :eek: :Wow1: :yikes:


Bjorn

[ringin10]

I posted this garbage from T-Trailers over in the Trailers thread....

Hmmm...this is on their home page....

"Welcome to T-CHOICE Trailer !
T-CHOICE is specialized in manufacturing all kinds of Pop style camping trailer, box trailer, cage trailer,ATV trailer, jet-ski trailer, motorbike trailer and customer trailers.

Our team of experienced engineers strives to develop innovative designs to deliver to you the best and newest models first. All our employees are committed to excellence. Our first tenet: "To be your best Choice! "

From 2004 to today we have done successful cooperations with our business friends all over the world. More and more people will know and love trailers "Made by T-choice "!

Welcome to visit our factory and we will do successful cooperation on this item!"


They have a "Contact us" button. I'm thinking we need to flood their inbox with how badly they ripped off Adventure Trailers.

[MuddyMudskipper]

I remember when I was a kid there were tons of knock off robot toys available on the market. I was never interested in them because they were cheaply made versions of the originals. My tastes have changed but my philosophy remains intact.

Sad, yet not surprising... SEMA this year really struck a chord with me. I had never seen so many ways to build the same Chinese winch ;) And all these companies are stepping up & bringing them into the states.

It's been going that way at SEMA for the past few years. Body kits one year, rims the next, and winches this year. The sad part is that I don't think its going to change anytime soon. Watches, purses, and even cars. The Chinese copy everything.

It is a shame that they have now found the camp trailer niche.

[Flounder]

Scott,

I've employed a pretty strait forward method with my outsourced purchases. Buying from Asia isn't always a bad thing, but it helps to know WHO you're buying from. For example, I don't mind buying some bikes from Asia. I'm just picky with which factory is doing the building. I'll buy bikes from Martec's factory (Kuota, Kestral, Orbea) but won't buy bikes from Topkey (Fuji, Marin, etc.) Not because I have anything against the brands, but as a factory, Martec has proven to be more protective of design and product than Topkey. Your Epic was made by Merida in Taipei. A great factory. They protect designs and even though they don't bring manufacturing dollars to the states, they help employ a lot of Specialized Bike Co employees through distribution of Specialized stuff. Giant (Taiwanese company) is another example. They have Chinese factories, but I would rather support a GOOD Chinese factory than just boycott their products all together. China is going to continue to produce. I'd rather support the legitimate producers.

If you snoop around, you can find out which factories are good ones and which ones are just pirate shops.

In this case, it would be worth finding out which crappy factory is building this trailer and find out if any other companies use that factory. You'd be surprised what you might uncover.

[AFSOC]

It's hard for us as a community to take the higher moral path in this scenario if we allow the debate to slowly lower it's tone and the debate to change into a racial rant. I have the greatest respect for the Chinese nation and people from Asia.

We have e mailed the company in China and asked them to remove the images of our trailers. I will keep you updated on any replies we get.


Admirable attitude Martyn! I suspect that AT customers are not so anonymous or uninformed as to just order a rig from an online order form. You are taking the correct approach by ensuring your photos are removed from their site. That is where the bulk of the damage is happening in this piracy. I am sorry this is happening to you and Mario.

[wagner_joe]

T-trailers is the front company.. The other company is listed under the trailer thread as I saw that thread first.

here is a photo from another website that shows their "email" address across the photo.. Not only are they using yahoo but also hotmail to communicate.

The main company appears to only make garden trailers... But I still don't trust their level of theft.. Yes there are many legit companies making an outsourced product, there are still more willing to steal to make more as we all know..

[expeditionswest]

Yes, this is not an anti-China or anti-Chinese rant, it is a statement of disagreement against many Chinese manufacturers (and the gov. that supports them) and western companies that copy products and have them manufactured in China with no consideration to the original designer, patent owner or copyright owner.

The outright theft of intellectual property to China is rampant, as shown clearly on the trailer website.

It is important not to confuse or associate race with the problem. It is a systemic problem in the Chinese government and nothing they intend to change or enforce.

I am happy to buy many things from China, as long as it is manufactured by a company with a good reputation, high quality standards and that the engineering and design profit benefits go back to the original innovator (like Apple for example).

Anger over an issue can quickly take a racial tone, which we all know is pretty ignorant. For me, I clearly see the issue, which is a total lack of support from the Chinese gov. to protect our (and many other countries, including Japan) IP.

[mmtoy]

I am not a lawyer, but this is my understanding:

The blatant copying of a product's looks and workings is frustrating, but--at least in the US--reverse engineering to make a competing or cooperative product is protected as "fair use".

The sale of these trailers that look and function almost exactly like the our favorite trailers is legal. If there is something that the original manufacturer has innovated and patented, that's a different story. You cannot directly copy a design that is patented, though you can make something that works in a similar or better (or worse) way under "fair use", and you can make something that works with that patented design. If that were not the case, we'd all be driving Fords and using ENIACs in our garages to browse the web. Fair Use provides for innovation to be built on top of innovation.

Whether these trailers are anywhere near the quality of an AT trailer is a different story. Clearly there's no new innovation here.

As Scott says, the real problem here is that when an international company disregards the IP of a US manufacturer, there is often no recourse for that US manufacturer. The remedy, of course, is consumer education.

Please note that I'm not saying I think it's right that these trailers are being marketed the way they are, and I know that the use of copyrighted photos IS illegal.

[DesertRose]

This concerns us at AT in that the web site in question is posting pictures of "real" trailers from well known off road trailer manufacturers. There doesn't seem to be any product of their own yet, in the off road category, so I'd imagine they haven't produced anything, or they are just testing the waters to see if anyone bites.

Reverse engineering happens! We have seen it here in the USA in the off road trailer market, http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10137&highlight=tentrax China just happens to be the biggest offender.

It's hard for us as a community to take the higher moral path in this scenario if we allow the debate to slowly lower it's tone and the debate to change into a racial rant. I have the greatest respect for the Chinese nation and people from Asia.

We have e mailed the company in China and asked them to remove the images of our trailers. I will keep you updated on any replies we get.

Hey, Martyn, glad you chimed in. I wanted to make that point, too: knock-offs happen everywhere, from garages to major factories in any country there is a cheap labor force.

And reall, let's look at the market. They (knock-off companies) would not do this if there was not a market for them to sell to . . . It's like email spam. It would not exist if people didn't actually click on it. It's the buyers who drive it. These guys would go out of business fast if they didn't have buyers.

Thanks, Scott, for bringing this to our attention. We're all in control of everything we do. It's a choice.

[TheRoadie]

Since they have their domain, it's super easy to set up mail server as well.Yes, but deliverability from Asian based hosting providers is horrible given widespread spam filters looking for region of origin. Their Yahoo address is on the Chinese version of Yahoo, but it may still suffer from the stigma of being from a spam-originating region.

As a hoot, take a look at this image linked on their trailer gallery page. Yes, it's a trailer of some sort, they claim.

http://www.easthardware.com/product_image_7/20073272211161484.jpg

[Lost Canadian]

To be honest, I'm not going to blame the Chinese. Don't get me wrong, I despise their human rights record and disregard for IP rights, but we're the ones that buy all this junk and support the "habbit" so to speak.

It's classic causation at work. If we want to rid ourselves of this type of thing we need to take responsibility for it and change the variable that creates it. The variable in this case that needs changing is western greed. If we change our variable it will produce change at the other end.

[VikingVince]

The outright theft of intellectual property to China is rampant, as shown clearly on the trailer website.
.

I'm confused. I think we all agree that the theft of IP is wrong and should be stopped. But where is the theft of Intellectual Property on the trailer site?

If they copy the AT exactly as shown in the pic, it's my understanding they haven't broken any laws...as long as the design of the AT is not patented.
???

[goodtimes]

I'm confused. I think we all agree that the theft of IP is wrong and should be stopped. But where is the theft of Intellectual Property on the trailer site?

If they copy the AT exactly as shown in the pic, it's my understanding they haven't broken any laws...as long as the design of the AT is not patented.
???

Pretty close.....patents and trademarks are both protected. I do not know if any part of the AT trailers have been filed as trademarks. A perfect example is the 7 slot grill that Jeep has trademarked. It is illegal to make direct replacement for this grill unless you substantially change the way it looks....which is why grills for CJ's are so darn expensive.

[expeditionswest]

I'm confused. I think we all agree that the theft of IP is wrong and should be stopped. But where is the theft of Intellectual Property on the trailer site?

If they copy the AT exactly as shown in the pic, it's my understanding they haven't broken any laws...as long as the design of the AT is not patented.
???

AT has several copyright protected logos and tag lines, like "Built for Offroad", all of which were removed from images with Photoshop. The images were also stolen from the original photographer (who also has rights).

[expeditionswest]

To be honest, I'm not going to blame the Chinese. Don't get me wrong, I despise their human rights record and disregard for IP rights, but we're the ones that buy all this junk and support the "habbit" so to speak.

It's classic causation at work. If we want to rid ourselves of this type of thing we need to take responsibility for it and change the variable that creates it. The variable in this case that needs changing is western greed. If we change our variable it will produce change at the other end.

Bravo...

[Martyn]

Thank you for all of your support and advice on this issue.

I'd like to clarify a few things.

Right now the only intellectual Property that has been used illegally is our photographs.

I do not believe there is any Off Road trailer being produced by T-Choice at this time, I think it's a fishing expedition to see if there is a market for such a product.

AT has Intellectual Property in the form of:

Copyright; Websites, articles, photographs etc

Trademarks; Filed with the US Trademark Office

Patents; Filed with the US Patent Office.

The enforcement of intellectual property rights is difficult, even when you are dealing with a US company. Trailer designs, shapes, and layouts can not be patented. Specific parts of the trailer can be patented. We only patent critical parts and systems. We come down hard on anyone who infringes our Patents or Trademarks.

As anyone who owns one of our trailers, or has seen one of our trailers first hand will tell you, what we sell is a trailer that is superbly engineered, made from the finest components, with a luxury car finish. The trailers are hand built to the owners specifications. Almost all of the parts and components for our trailers are made in the USA. If we source components from overseas it’s because a similar product of the same quality or specifications is not available in the USA, re. RTT’s and awnings. In addition we provide excellent customer service and product back up no matter where in the world you and your trailer are located.

A package like that is very hard to beat.

[VikingVince]

AT has several copyright protected logos and tag lines, like "Built for Offroad", all of which were removed from images with Photoshop. The images were also stolen from the original photographer (who also has rights).

Hmmm...but they could still build a trailer that looks exactly like an AT and not be breaking any laws. The fact that they removed the logos and tag lines is to their "credit" you might say. You can copy a Rolex watch as long as you don't put the name "Rolex" on it.

I couldn't ascertain from Martyn's post whether or not AT actually has patents on some of the trailer components. If AT does have patents on some components/parts/systems, then that can't legally be reproduced.

But I really don't see the big deal about making a trailer that "looks" exactly like an AT...as long as there are no copyright/patent/trademark infringements.
It's no different than Honda copying the distinctive appearance of a Harley..and that actually broadened Harley's international appeal. Because of Honda's copying and other manufacturers following suit, it became "cool" in foreign countries to own a "real Harley." Same thing could happen to AT.

[elcoyote]

I couldn't ascertain from Martyn's post whether or not AT actually has patents on some of the trailer components. If AT does have patents on some components/parts/systems, then that can't legally be reproduced.


Vince, to clarify, the answer is yes and the images on their site are our images that were stolen from us. Unfortunately our government does not have effective IP infringement policies in place with China nor does China actively pursue enforcement. This puts the burden upon the "Infringed" to protect their rights. This is if you're a big corporation with a big stick and a stable of lawyers. 52% of all American workers are employed by small businesses. One would think that is worth protecting when large corporations are reporting bad news.

[VikingVince]

Vince, to clarify, the answer is yes and the images on their site are our images that were stolen from us.

Mario,

thanks for clearing that up.

How do you feel about my Honda/Harley comparison and the possibility that trailers that "look" like yours (w/o any IP infringement) could actually result in increased international sales of your trailers?

[expeditionswest]

But I really don't see the big deal about making a trailer that "looks" exactly like an AT...as long as there are no copyright/patent/trademark infringements.

Well then, that is where your and my opinions vary greatly then amigo.

Ethics go much deeper than laws (which actually are being broken in this case). ;) And of course, ethics are many times a personal thing, or generally accepted and followed set of "guidelines", like what a handshake used to mean and what "do no harm knowingly" means.

The ethics in question in this case are absolutely clear in my mind. It is a very evident action that they are attempting to make money and gain market share at any cost, legal or not...

[TheRoadie]

AT has several copyright protected logos and tag lines, like "Built for Offroad", all of which were removed from images with Photoshop. A legally purchased and registered copy of Photoshop, I'm sure. ........ Not.

[elcoyote]

Mario,

thanks for clearing that up.

How do you feel about my Honda/Harley comparison and the possibility that trailers that "look" like yours (w/o any IP infringement) could actually result in increased international sales of your trailers?

I would feel differently if it were merely "emulation". It is the sincerest form of flattery so they say. Yes a rising tide raises all ships. The fact that this IP infringement has been brought to light says that this is a growing market opportunity and we have strategically placed ourselves. we understand that point. I make the analogy that we are surfers who paddled out early to catch a wave that we knew would break and by being early, we are the ones who get to ride it. Pioneers unfortunately have to work harder for their spoils and get the arrows in the process of clearing the path for others.

The downside of this manufacturer claiming to build our product is that they do not have our expertise nor from what I have seen of mass produced off shore product, have the commitment to quality and reliability. A flood of poorly made product and the ensuing bad publicity could potentially harm the market. I would hate to see a product out there that "looks" like ours but is substandard, not built to NATM & NHTSA standards, that has resulted in an accident and taken lives. News like that would fill a lot of bilges.

[VikingVince]

Well then, that is where your and my opinions vary greatly then amigo.

Ethics go much deeper than laws (which actually are being broken in this case). ;) And of course, ethics are many times a personal thing, or generally accepted and followed set of "guidelines", like what a handshake used to mean and what "do no harm knowingly" means.

The ethics in question in this case are absolutely clear in my mind. It is a very evident action that they are attempting to make money and gain market share at any cost, legal or not...

Address the analogy I made within the context of your attempt to make this about ethics (I'm not arguing ethics)...Honda made a near perfect duplication of the way a Harley "looked." Was that unethical? My point here...and it's not one of ethics....is that the Chinese trailer is no different.

[Streakerfreak]

This is not cool.

... imagine everyone's facial expression as you pull up to an ExPo run with your Chinese AT (Anti Trailer)...
:confused:

Man I was thinking the same thing.

Yes, it sucks that they are trying to build a cheaper trailer then the AT guys, but what disgusted me is the fact that they are using images right from the website.

[expeditionswest]

Ethics are a personal, almost unspoken thing. I am pretty old fashioned in that regard. I will make my judgements and you will make yours.

If Honda directly copied a Harley's design, then shame on them in my eyes. Not getting caught (losing a legal battle) does not make the action right.

I have been through many start-ups where we innovated and paid the cost of engineering, sales efforts and design. It is extremely hard work. It is much easier to take someone else's ideas or ride on their coattails than get to the top of the mountain yourself.

So Vince, assuming they are not breaking any laws, then copying a design and images directly for personal gain is a practice you agree with?

Discussion and disagreement is a healthy thing. Have a good night my friend...

[Life_in_4Lo]

well known company used my photo without permission, then lied about how they obtained it. I didn't care and it wasn't as blatant as the ones represented here. But that's not the larger issue is it?

Wasn't there a tent company that copied Pangea's website- lifted the html code and just changed the name? It just goes on and on.

I hate creative licensing (art,music,photo,intellectual) theft, it's the dearest to me. However, the thing we are actually talking about isn't that. It's really manufacturing.

I avoid Chinese products - especially FOOD products- but you can't blame them when companies close down US factories and move production to increase profits (and eventually, to simply compete).
Manufacturing is done in China, it's easy for them to copy anything they are producing on behalf of Brand Name X. Play with the devil...

Look at the chinese tents that went on sale here- people jumped on it because of the deal. They are obviously copies of Hannibals, EZ Awns, etc. but I didn't hear anyone complain about it.
I bet if that trailer, fully equipped came in at 50% off the orig, they would sell out in a day.

It's the mentality that goes on. I think the consumer has it wrong. The manufacturers have it wrong... and China has always been what it is. Everyone knew it. They knew what they were in for when they started dealing with them so to act surprised or expect them to play by another moral standard is silly.
They are unethical.
They will do anything for a buck.
They have no concept of human rights.
They demand attention and market.
They will build anything for $1... and maybe that's the only thing that people really care about.

I would gladly pay more for USA made products. Problem is, nothing is made in the USA anymore... unless you are a woodworker, it's pretty hard to find USA quality and pride in anything. That is disappointing. A nation of consumers... consumers with no loyalty. That drives what is offered, and it's pretty disappointing.

[1leglance]

The consumer drives the market...
To change the market you must change the consumer...
Witness the life of diesels here in the USA...consumers don't want them in mass so they aren't here in mass.
That is my response to the "why the chinese are doing this"...to meet our market needs according to their cultural standards.

The real fault is ours, not thiers. We can not judge another culture by our standards. If millions of comsumers didn't go into Wally World and dig themselves deeper in debt to buy crap then there would not be production of said crap.

Asian imports have been around forever, I remember as a kid none of the men in my family would be caught dead with a non-USA made tool. Now like others have said it is hard to find something made in the USA.

So in the name of great ecological and moral good...buy quality USED products. That will cut global manufacturing and waste, reduce the demand for garbage products, reduce the waste stream and make us all feel better.
Oh and talk to eveyone you know about doing the same.

Quality over everything else, buy once and be happy for years.

[VikingVince]

If Honda directly copied a Harley's design, then shame on them in my eyes. Not getting caught (losing a legal battle) does not make the action right.


So Vince, assuming they are not breaking any laws, then copying a design and images directly for personal gain is a practice you agree with?

.

The Honda's and Kawasaki's that copied the Harley design are all over the streets today. Ultimately, all the companies benefited as do the individuals that ride both Hondas and Harleys.
In the final analysis, the universe could accommodate all of it with harm to no one. Think about that...
We often do not see the forest for the trees.
We human beings are so concerned with protecting what is "ours." Let it go. Let it be. Copying a design that's legal whether for personal gain or not? That should be the least of humanities concerns.

[expeditionswest]

Copying a design that's legal whether for personal gain or not? That should be the least of humanities concerns.

The fact that humanity is willing to do anything for personal gain is the problem Vince.

Leaders in Kenya willing to compromise a vote for personal gain
Corruption is rampant in developing countries for personal gain
Drilling in ANWR for personal gain
Driving an H2 on CA highways for a 100 mile commute
War contracts for personal gain
Copying the ideas and efforts of other for personal gain

Where is the personal sacrifice for what is HONORABLE?

[datrupr]

I have to say, I am actually enjoying this thread. I usually do not get involved with threads such as this one. The discussion between Scott and Vince is very great. While it is clear that neither one of them will convince the other of thier point of view, I find it very intellectually stimulating, while maintaing the civility only known on ExPo.

Now, to get back on track. As has been said before, I really don't think there is anything any of us can do about. I am upset that they stole pictures to put up on thier web site, and I generally laugh at reverse engineering. It just tells me that these people are lacking any sort of original thought what so ever.

I would absolutely kill to have a fully kitted out Horizon trailer, but sadly I can not afford one. However, this does not mean that I am going to go to the chinese model because it is half the price. Mario and Martyn are know for building a high quality product and support it 100%. They have a reputation for great customer service and being genuinely all around great guys. I personally would rather cut back wherever I can to save up for a genuine AT trailer than buy a knock off any day. Anyway, I'm sorry you guys got ripped off, but in this day and age I am not really sure there is much that can be done other than not buy the knock off product. I wish Mario and Martyn and the whole gang over at AT the best, and I know they will endure.

[VikingVince]

The fact that humanity is willing to do anything for personal gain is the problem Vince.

Leaders in Kenya willing to compromise a vote for personal gain
Corruption is rampant in developing countries for personal gain
Drilling in ANWR for personal gain
Driving an H2 on CA highways for a 100 mile commute
War contracts for personal gain
Copying the ideas and efforts of other for personal gain

Where is the personal sacrifice for what is HONORABLE?

The actions you cited are not done by humanity. All those examples are committed by unethical individuals, governments, or corporations...the darker side.

Humanity is bigger than all of that...there are thousands of honorable individuals who work everyday to make the world a better place...humanity is the high road, the Light...and will, in the long run, triumph over what you described...and "designs" will be shared by all. :-)

[DaveInDenver]

If Honda directly copied a Harley's design, then shame on them in my eyes. Not getting caught (losing a legal battle) does not make the action right.
I think a more apt comparison might be that Toyota more or less copied the old GM 235 c.i.d. inline 6 for the F engine. I mean, directly to the level that a F rebuilder can use many Chevy parts without issue. The bottom ends and valves are very similar (you could almost say identical). Yet we all hold Toyota in high regard. Why? By 1955, when Toyota brought out the F, Chevy was moving away from the 235. They'd brought out the design in 1941, so it was not a cutting edge product anymore and so it's hard to say it was a direct competition issue. But Chevy used the engine until the early 1960s, so it wasn't an obsolete engine by any means. I can tell you this much, I believe Toyota back then was trying to gain a foothold, plain and simple. Having a known design probably made people less scared of trying them and they found that while the design was not earth shattering, the quality turned out to be higher. How is that really any different than a lot of what's going on in China? Japan was known as the source for cheap crap and they wanted to move upscale. They did so by in some cases taking USA and German made stuff, copying it and making it better or cheaper. I certainly do not condone or like what's happening with China, but really, how is it fundamentally different than what's happened in other countries that we end up liking?

[Bergger]

As anyone who owns one of our trailers, or has seen one of our trailers first hand will tell you, what we sell is a trailer that is superbly engineered, made from the finest components, with a luxury car finish. The trailers are hand built to the owners specifications. Almost all of the parts and components for our trailers are made in the USA. If we source components from overseas it’s because a similar product of the same quality or specifications is not available in the USA, re. RTT’s and awnings. In addition we provide excellent customer service and product back up no matter where in the world you and your trailer are located.

A package like that is very hard to beat.

We just took delivery of our Chaser today and I could not agree more with the above statement. How many companies are out there that have owners that give you their cell phone numbers and will talk you through things over the phone? I don't know many but AT is certainly one. Great company! Great Product! Great employees!!

[expeditionswest]

How many companies are out there that have owners that give you their cell phone numbers and will talk you through things over the phone? I don't know many but AT is certainly one. Great company! Great Product! Great employees!!

And people, ideals and products worth standing up for...

[goodtimes]

On the subject of reverse engineering....here is a link to an article I some time ago (don't recall exactly when or where.....and I doubt that this is the original source).

clicky-clicky (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.02/teardown.html)

What do you think about that????

[adrenaline503]

On the subject of reverse engineering....here is a link to an article I some time ago (don't recall exactly when or where.....and I doubt that this is the original source).

clicky-clicky (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.02/teardown.html)

What do you think about that????

Huh, interesting

[24HOURSOFNEVADA]

When I opened the thread, I immediately thought Bob M. from Tentrax was at it again. It' s very sad when something like this happens, in fact It's pathetic that there are Vultures that market a product without earning the right to do so.

The only thing that makes it worse, is that there are consumers (Apparently even on this board) that think it's alright to do so.

It doesn't have to be illegal to be wrong. It just has to be wrong.

It reminds me of advice my dad gave me growing up. "Never buy anything from someone that you can't punch in the nose."

[suntinez]

What do you think about that????

Any time a company builds something good and actually gets it to market, it is going to be dissected. Sometimes the copier tries to just steal market share, but sometimes they wind up saving time on developing an even cooler product, and everyone evolves.

It has happened to me countless times in my career, it’s a given! It’s flattering to have your ideas analyzed and copied, at the same time it’s frustrating (devastating sometimes) to have the expected returns on your work obliterated or diminished by the new guy. But if they introduce a straight copycat product and it flops, either due to manufacturing or bad cust support, whatever - then you get the benefits of their marketing efforts. Consumers are smart - eventually people figure out what’s best.

Good products last, and will always be copied. Who gets the benefit from the original design depends on so much more – company management, who can endure/market/support/adapt to the changing market. It’s the dance of design in response to a consumer driven world. Keeps you busy though!

[olympiccop2002]

goodtimes,

Very interesting article. Thanks for sharing that.

Bjorn

[Flounder]

Many stinky layers to this onion. Lots of grey area as well. Someone will always be first to bring a product to market and eventually, similar products will ensue. That's normal and healthy. This is why we can read product reviews on various refrigerators when actually, they're all darn near the same in many ways. There are countless examples. I had a beautiful Ducati 900CR in '95. By '96, Honda and Suzuki were making nearly identical bikes. That is a case of emulation and imitation more than just intellectual thievery.

Now, this trailer business is pretty pure knock off territory. Not quite in the same category as selling Rollex watches or Land Bruisers, it is none the less a shameless knock off. It's up to the consumer to decide who they want to support. A Rolex and a Rollex are not the same product.

We have to be careful not to over simplify these things. Not all imitations are "unauthorized" by the innovator. Sometimes the "innovator" like Eezi-Awn, isn't really the innovator at all, just the gold standard. And yes, rogue knock offs will surface and yes, they probably should be avoided.

[MaddBaggins]

The only problem I see with the Honda/Harley analogy or the Chevy/Toyota F engine analogy is this: Both Honda and Toyota put out a quality product and in the long run the market was stimulated for both Honda and Harley.
I think what AT has to fear the most from this is that a cheap quality knock off will hurt their business. If these knock offs are breaking or falling apart or, god forbid, someone get hurt or killed, this will create a large negative outlook on AT trailers by people who don't know the difference. Theres a lot of folks out there who don't know the difference and don't care. THAT could hurt ourt friends at AT.

[expeditionswest]

Sometimes the "innovator" like Eezi-Awn, isn't really the innovator at all, just the gold standard.

Just a point of clarification.

Eezi-Awn was the first manufacturer of canvas, clam-shell style Root Top Tents.

Autohome was also a first, with their invention of the hard-shell, lifting Roof Top Tent.

[overlander]

As anyone who owns one of our trailers, or has seen one of our trailers first hand will tell you, what we sell is a trailer that is superbly engineered, made from the finest components, with a luxury car finish. The trailers are hand built to the owners specifications. Almost all of the parts and components for our trailers are made in the USA. If we source components from overseas it’s because a similar product of the same quality or specifications is not available in the USA, re. RTT’s and awnings. In addition we provide excellent customer service and product back up no matter where in the world you and your trailer are located.

A package like that is very hard to beat.

You forgot, another advantage of the AT trailer over the T-Chase is that it isn't made of lead. Try pulling that beast!

I still think it's all "burrsheet"!

[Flounder]

Just a point of clarification.

Eezi-Awn was the first manufacturer of canvas, clam-shell style Root Top Tents. .
I stand corrected. I was under the impression that Eezi-Awn was only a couple decades old. Wasn't the RTT invented long before?

[xj_mike]

Ethics go much deeper than laws (which actually are being broken in this case). ;) And of course, ethics are many times a personal thing, or generally accepted and followed set of "guidelines", like what a handshake used to mean and what "do no harm knowingly" means.


I agree that I follow ethics much more then laws. Morals and ethics are a personal thing that very greatly from person to person. I am of the believe that a handshake is your word, your bond and I will do everything in my power to honor that handshake. I have ended up buying things that I gave my handshake (whether in person or via my word over the phone, email, etc.) that ended up not being what I wanted or needed. I bought these things because I said I would. If it doesn't work out for me, well it's my loss and I move forward with lessons learned.

I recently did this with the roof rack I bought. It looked to be just what I wanted but what I failed to ask was the weight. When I went to pick it up it was twice the weight I was expecting but I bought it because I said I would. After trying to figure out if I could modify it, to lighten it, I just determined that it was not going to work. I posted it for sale on ExPo but because I did not want someone to fall into the same issue I did, I posted the weight. When it finally sold, I lost 25% of what I paid for it. Again my lessoned learned and as far as the person I bought it from, I am a stand up guy who he would sell to again.

It is sad that morals and ethics no longer mean what they used to in this world. There are just too many people who look at nothing more then $$$ and it's sad to see.

Hopefully this will work out in the end for AT and hopefully they can get their photo removed. If the company wants to copy and AT trailer, at least make them build one and take their own photo of it.

My .02 worth.

[Martyn]

I stand corrected. I was under the impression that Eezi-Awn was only a couple decades old. Wasn't the RTT invented long before?

Flounder

There is a thread on the history of the RTT somewhere on the Portal. The history is long and intertwined. A twist that wasn't explored on it was that the two original owners of Autohome didn't patent their design. When the owners went their separate ways one of the partners started a second RTT company in Germany called http://www.autocamp.de If you check out the site you can see they make everything that Autohome makes. To the casual viewer they are identical.

There will always be discussion on what is fair in trade. But the basic rule for a patent is; It must be specific, new, improved, or different, and most important an application for patent must be made within the 12 months of the innovation coming on the market. Many products, such as the classic RTT, were never patented in this critical time period and therefore entered the world of public domain.

To me in the case of T-Choice I am concerned that they posted pictures of well known off road trailers and may manufacture look a likes. I think people has covered the issues this may cause. I don't have a problem competing against other off road trailers that are in the market or come on to the market, but I need to think very hard on how we would handle a copy.

AT is a pioneer company when it comes to off road trailers in the USA, and of course we have anticipate other companies entering the market, or companies emulating our technology. But there is a lot to be said for being first, constantly innovating, and being a nimble small company. This has been our philosophy all along.

I am not convinced that having a mass produced less expensive off road trailer would be bad for our business. After all we have been telling people for years “to make a good off road trailer isn't a cheap or easy”. So the proof would be in the pudding so to speak.

[elcoyote]

It is inevitable in business that once you have a good idea, competition is soon to crop up and be on your tail. We would be naive to rest on our laurels and only try to defend our current products. Competition keeps us spry and spurns innovation. Competition reminds us to value each and every one of our clients. Competition adds stimulus and urgency to R & D. By the time the competition catches up to our dust, we will have already turned down an even more interesting and challenging path. The future has many changes in store for AT and we are confident that our core market of discerning Overlanders will be pleased. Stay tuned....

[VikingVince]

Well said, Mario...you have an excellent, quality product.
The imitators will only be eating your dust!
Continued success...

[NorCalSam]

Right on Scott,

this is a big problem in our country!

[Mike S]

I notice that the Tent on the Adventure trailer, with the phony logo on it, is an AutoHome OverLand tent. They are looking for someone to bite, and then they will manufacture something. I used to do business in Hong Kong - when it was still a colony. If you buy a container of product, you pay before it is loaded on the ship, and you own it. If it is crap, you still own it.

If a rip off doesn't bother you, then consider after sale support, spare parts availability, warranty and repair. These are worth something to the consumer - sometimes a lot.

AutoHome has done a couple of things right... they did not waste time and money trying to patent their products -- It has been my experience that patents do not protect manufacturers well when you consider the cost and man hours spent to get it done. Patents are good for inventors, tho.'

There is a company in Turkey that not only ripped off AutoHome designs, BUT THEY COPIED THE AUTOHOME USA WEBSITE COMPLETE WITH CUSTOMER QUOTES.

I have also refused to ship product to China - the potential 'customer' wanted to buy one unit. When I refused, they offered to sell ME their tents.

You get what you pay for.

M

[calamaridog]

On the subject of reverse engineering....here is a link to an article I some time ago (don't recall exactly when or where.....and I doubt that this is the original source).

clicky-clicky (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.02/teardown.html)

What do you think about that????

I got a very good deal on my 2000 Land Cruiser Factory Service Manual set on ebay. It came directly from Chrysler.

[Redline]

Good suggestion Dave, I have the same one in 3-ton.

I've got a Hein-Warner HW93642 2-ton floor jack that is USA made. They usually go for about $300 (I paid $275). What worried me when I was looking for a floor jack was that this sucker is rated 2 tons and looks every bit (or more) substantial than a 4 ton Chinese jack. It's all cast and beefy. Those Chinese ones are probably made really cheap and I don't want to die when one fails.

http://www.toolking.com/hein-wernerautomotive_hw93642.aspx

http://www.toolking.com/images/Products/bigsfHW93642.jpg

[alvarorb]

This cracks me up: "Cooker and other equipments are optional"
I bet if you order the "complete" thing it would even include a Chinese fire extinguisher...

Regards

Alvaro

[cruiseroutfit]

Great thread with alot of insight from all walks of life... a couple of thoughts.

1. We've had the discussion on "cheap" Chinese goods in the past. The one thing I wish to impart on anyone who discounts and rationalizes all Chinese goods as "cheap"... is to look at Toyota in the 21st century. Post WWII they were the China of today. "Cheap Japanese goods" were the comments of the day. Toyota offereings were known "knock-offs" of US technology, it wasn't cutting edge, but it was a knock-off none the less.

2. I've seen pictures of Chinese knockoff vehicles for years now, Susuki Samurai knockoffs, the 80 Series, the 4Runner, the Scion... but not have ever shown their face in the US. While its obvious smaller consumer goods have made their way to the shelves of Walmart... is there really much threat of their auto's making it to the US? On one hand I say "no way", but look at the influx of Chinese ATV's that are EVERYWHERE. PepBoys, Checker, Costco, Harbor Freight... and even "import" ATV shops. In Utah there are a couple of dozen (or more) ATV dealers dealing exclusively with the Chinese imports. Scary... It has me wondering when the cars will arrive in the US in mass quantities.

3. Re: Adventure Trailers. I hardly doubt there will be much demand for a Chinese trailer... Given the complexities of the manufacture, sourcing the parts as well as the sheer size & cost, I just don't see it happening from China... and thats a good thing.

4. RTT & their origins. I know there was a thread on the history of RTT's, I'll have to dig it up. However Scott mentioned that Ezi-Awn was the inventor of the "clamshell style" canvas RTT. Would "clam shell" include units like the ARB Simpson II tent, the Howling Moon tent or the Ezi-Awn Series 3 tents

Such as this:
http://www.equipt1.com/h/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/category/pic_rc_tents_c3.jpg

Or by "clamshell", are you referring to the aluminum clad tent?

[Desertdude]

[Snip]

2. I've seen pictures of Chinese knockoff vehicles for years now, Susuki Samurai knockoffs, the 80 Series, the 4Runner, the Scion... but not have ever shown their face in the US. While its obvious smaller consumer goods have made their way to the shelves of Walmart... is there really much threat of their auto's making it to the US? On one hand I say "no way", but look at the influx of Chinese ATV's that are EVERYWHERE. PepBoys, Checker, Costco, Harbor Freight... and even "import" ATV shops. In Utah there are a couple of dozen (or more) ATV dealers dealing exclusively with the Chinese imports. Scary... It has me wondering when the cars will arrive in the US in mass quantities.


Not sure if this is the beginning, but there is now a China Auto building in the Santa Cruz Auto Mall area... I will be back over in that area next week and will see if they finally brought in some vehicles.

[cruiseroutfit]

Not sure if this is the beginning, but there is now a China Auto building in the Santa Cruz Auto Mall area... I will be back over in that area next week and will see if they finally brought in some vehicles.

Interesting to hear... mabey it is happening?

I wonder though, will the "legit" auto companies be more sucsessful in stopping their import? Surely there are some style cues that can be copyrighted (ie. the Jeep 7 slot grill) with enough money. I'm sure Toyota et al have teams of folks watching the China import scene closely? I guess time will only tell?

[MuddyMudskipper]

1. We've had the discussion on "cheap" Chinese goods in the past. The one thing I wish to impart on anyone who discounts and rationalizes all Chinese goods as "cheap"... is to look at Toyota in the 21st century. Post WWII they were the China of today. "Cheap Japanese goods" were the comments of the day. Toyota offereings were known "knock-offs" of US technology, it wasn't cutting edge, but it was a knock-off none the less.

Good point. I would surmise that eventually China will eventually price itself out of the "cheap" market in the same way Japan did. If history repeats itself as it inevitably will a new country will emerge to carry the "cheap" torch as Japan had and now China. India perhaps?


Not sure if this is the beginning, but there is now a China Auto building in the Santa Cruz Auto Mall area... I will be back over in that area next week and will see if they finally brought in some vehicles.

Malcolm Bricklin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_Bricklin) (anyone remember the SV1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bricklin_SV-1)) had an ambitious plan to import Chery Automobiles into the U.S. in 2007. That venture never fully materialized and not a single Cheri has showed up (yet). Chinese made cars are coming. It is inevitable.

[ginericLC]

[QUOTE=cruiseroutfit]Great thread with alot of insight from all walks of life... a couple of thoughts.

1. We've had the discussion on "cheap" Chinese goods in the past. The one thing I wish to impart on anyone who discounts and rationalizes all Chinese goods as "cheap"... is to look at Toyota in the 21st century. Post WWII they were the China of today. "Cheap Japanese goods" were the comments of the day. Toyota offereings were known "knock-offs" of US technology, it wasn't cutting edge, but it was a knock-off none the less.

Kurt,

The problem I have with the Chinese is not the piss poor quality. The market will weed those folks out, that is what happened with Japan. However, the difference between China and Japan is the political and social side of things. China is a communist country, Japan was not. In Japan people can work for rewards to gain status, in China that is not the case. Buy buying from China I would be supporting a form of government that I don't believe in. Unfortunately, I have had to buy some Chinese made goods. I couldn't find US made CBs. But I try real hard not to. Shoes are next to impossible to find made outside of China. I've struggled with that.

Eric V.

[cruiseroutfit]

...The problem I have with the Chinese is not the piss poor quality. The market will weed those folks out, that is what happened with Japan. However, the difference between China and Japan is the political and social side of things. China is a communist country, Japan was not. In Japan people can work for rewards to gain status, in China that is not the case. Buy buying from China I would be supporting a form of government that I don't believe in. Unfortunately, I have had to buy some Chinese made goods. I couldn't find US made CBs. But I try real hard not to. Shoes are next to impossible to find made outside of China. I've struggled with that.

Eric V.

Agreed for the most part... However lets not forget that Toyota was sprouting its roots when Japan was very much an enemy of the United States. Only after it became "occupied" Japan were goods more widely accepted.

[CodyLX450]

Have they actually made one of these trailers - or only stole the images to pretend they can make such an item?

[VikingVince]

[QUOTE=cruiseroutfit]

The problem I have with the Chinese is not the piss poor quality. The market will weed those folks out, that is what happened with Japan. However, the difference between China and Japan is the political and social side of things. China is a communist country, Japan was not. In Japan people can work for rewards to gain status, in China that is not the case. Buy buying from China I would be supporting a form of government that I don't believe in. Unfortunately, I have had to buy some Chinese made goods. I couldn't find US made CBs. But I try real hard not to. Shoes are next to impossible to find made outside of China. I've struggled with that.

Eric V.

The other way to view your reluctance to buy/support a Communist government is that probably the best way to change China and eventually defeat Communism is through the continued and increased exposure of the Chinese people to democracy and capitalism. If the USA followed your personal policy, that would amount to protectionism and isolationism...policies that would not encourage future change.

This was the great insight and foreign policy triumph of the Nixon Administration in the 1970's...his trip to Communist China (which was criticized at the time) eventually resulted in the "opening" of China to the West...and that was the beginning of the changes we see today. Yes, China is still Communist but 35 years is not that long in terms of changing an entrenched system...trade with China is essentially responsible for the changes we've seen and the way to effect positive change in the future.

So, personally, I try to keep that in mind when shaping my attitudes towards China, the relatively early stages of their economic development, and...their products.

[DaveInDenver]

But I try real hard not to. Shoes are next to impossible to find made outside of China. I've struggled with that.
That is tough. It was quite a disappointment when I had to replace my hiking boots and I started shopping around. I expected to find more Italian made boots. I bought another pair of Scarpas (I ski only Scarpa boots), but just about everything in the Scarpa line under $200 was made in China. That was depressing. The guy I buy my boots from even said that the Chinese-made boots are a step down even with Scarpa people overseeing and using the same Scarpa lasts that they used in Italy to make the same model. Shrug, just as long as I can get another pair of SL M3 or Delta M3 from the same factory when these uppers die (figure based on my other sets of leather Scarpas, like when I'm about 45 or 50).

[DaveInDenver]

The other way to view your reluctance to buy/support a Communist government is that probably the best way to change China and eventually defeat Communism is through the continued and increased exposure of the Chinese people to democracy and capitalism. If the USA followed your personal policy, that would amount to protectionism and isolationism...policies that would not encourage future change.
That's an interesting approach and I agree in principle. I think for this to be an effective policy you need a more educated consumer. IOW, you have to support companies that use fair labor practices and can encourage freer markets and empowered Chinese citizens. I would assume some do, like maybe an Apple. But mostly people don't care as long as their cheap Wal-Mart junk is available. Supporting businesses that are heavily state controlled probably won't have as much impact and might only reinforce the Communist aspect. Just thinking out loud, really. Vietnam might be a good example of how using our economic might can bring about change.

[mmtoy]

That's an interesting approach and I agree in principle. I think for this to be an effective policy you need a more educated consumer. IOW, you have to support companies that use fair labor practices and can encourage freer markets and empowered Chinese citizens. I would assume some do, like maybe an Apple. But mostly people don't care as long as their cheap Wal-Mart junk is available. Supporting businesses that are heavily state controlled probably won't have as much impact and might only reinforce the Communist aspect. Just thinking out loud, really. Vietnam might be a good example of how using our economic might can bring about change.

To me, this is the crux of the matter. High quality manufacturers should be able to weather any storm of cheap knock-offs from China, but when we purchase junk made in China because it's cheap, we're supporting poor labor practices. That is much more important to me than IP that is copied. I'd rather purchase from Adventure Trailers not because they're in the USA, but because they build a quality product and at the same time abide by fair labor laws of the US. I'd be just as happy to purchase something from another company in a different country if they did quality work and treated their employees respectfully. (I'm still trying to find a way to afford an AT, of course. ;))

I did a little research into Apple's plant in China, and it looks like they're good stewards of their Chinese workers. I'd be happy to purchase another Apple product.

[flywgn]

This made for an interesting Saturday morning read. :coffee:
A friend of ours has been one of Polaroid's patent attorneys for years and successfully won the suit against Eastman Kodak's infringement in the early 1980s. Fascinating business this patent protection.

Anyway, I trust that the AT folks will get some satisfaction from contacting the T-choice pirates.

I remember all too well the cheap stuff coming out of Japan in the '50s. I also remember the F-series Toyota motor. I do think that GM worked with them on this one. Not sure though.

Gotta go and get "Harry" ready. We head down into Baja next week for a month or so. Some R&D for Mario and Martyn. :wings: :luxhello:

Allen R
Mile-High AZ for the moment

[computeruser]

The enforcement of intellectual property rights is difficult, even when you are dealing with a US company. Trailer designs, shapes, and layouts can not be patented. Specific parts of the trailer can be patented. We only patent critical parts and systems. We come down hard on anyone who infringes our Patents or Trademarks.


I wouldn't make a blanket statement about the non-patentability of designs and layouts. Though I don't practice in IP, I have friends who do and former classmates who are PTO examiners, and it never ceases to amaze me what can be patented if it is presented in the correct fashion, with the "correct" jargon and illustrations...

Not that it matters when dealing with those who operate in countries where IP is not respected, of course.



The original point of the post, though, is well taken. The idea of cheapness and quantity being the determining factor for most people's purchasing decisions only feeds the copying and reverse-engineering that is rampant in the non-western countries. They're addressing a need not accommodated within our existing business/IP/regulatory framework, and we're speaking with our dollars. And it isn't just WalMart that has figured this out.

Our microwave started giving off sparks last night, so we have to get a new one...wish me luck finding one that wasn't made in China...