Air or CO2???

[OldSven]

So here is my question, I have an MF-1050 air compressor in my truck and was looking at an air tank install to go with it. But how do the CO2 setups compare up? And can you run both? A compressor to a CO2 tank just incase you run low at the end of a trail?

Thanks:D

[atavuss]

from what I have been reading the MF-1050 compressors are going to have a heck of a time building up enough air pressure to fill even a small tank with anything approaching 100 to 125psi. I was going to do this too until I researched it.

[flyingwil]

So here is my question, I have an MF-1050 air compressor in my truck and was looking at an air tank install to go with it. But how do the CO2 setups compare up? And can you run both? A compressor to a CO2 tank just incase you run low at the end of a trail?

Thanks:D

You can have both, but it is not wise to hook you compressor up to a CO2 tank. I currently have a MF-1050 too, but will be upgrading to better compressor down the road. I also have a 5 gal tank that I will use to support the compressor. The (air) tank does have it's downfalls, especially in weight where a stronger compressor can do the job just fine.

If you go with a CO2 tank, I would suggest keeping the compressor as a back up. Redundancy is always good in the middle of "bum**** and you got a preeetty mouth."

[BajaTaco]

Both have their ups and downs. It wouldn't be practical to fill a CO2 tank with your air compressor. But if you can afford to have an air compressor AND a CO2 tank for those trips where you want to take it, then you will have the best of both worlds.

I go into a little more commentary here (http://www.bajataco.com/onboardair/quickair01.html)

In a nutshell, if you can only choose one or the other:

1. If you don't plan on doing an extended trip somewhere that will exhaust your CO2 supply, then you will probably enjoy the CO2 more because it is much more powerful and much faster than a compressor.

2. If you don't like the idea of running out of CO2 on an expedition somewhere, and you don't like the idea of having to refill your CO2 tank (costs time & money) then you might want to choose the air compressor.

[UncleChris]

I have heard that the CO2 is a much better setup.

I have an ARB that starts heating up before it reinflates one tire.

I also have a cigarette lighter air pump that performs much better.

I am considering getting a CO2 system and keeping the ARB as a backup.

[Steve Curren]

I have a Co2 tank and believe it is the way to go, it lasts about 4-5 times filling my 305/70 R16 tires from @ 15 to 35 pounds. I also have two tanks, I got the first one from Power Tank with the regulator, I found a 10 Lb. tank from Williams Ballons in California. I am also thinking hard about a compressor for a back up, the Co2 tank will blow a seal if the tank gets too hot, the seal is easily replaced and the place I filled up had them for free. I had one go on me 2 weekends ago and I had to borrow a friends tank. It only costs $5 to fill a 10 Lb. tank in Tucson.

[OldSven]

For the money my 1050 was a great purchase. For my 255's it takes about 20-25 minutes to fill all of them. I wanted to buil the air tank set up for it but would like to use an air tool off it if the problem calls for it. what do people think of this idea instead of the expensive PowerTank? Thanks for the replys too.
http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f294/OldSven/co21.jpg

[OldSven]

I just found a place http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbeer/tanks/co2.shtml that has aluminum CO2 tanks for around $90. How safe are these tanks? I know it is compressed air but what is the worst that could happen if damaged?

[Steve Curren]

I have had a Co2 tank for a while and I know those who have had them for many years, make sure they are secured and all should be safe. That is a great price, I paid $83 and that was for a 10 Lb. tank. A good regulator also makes a difference.

[Willman]

I just found a place http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbeer/tanks/co2.shtml that has aluminum CO2 tanks for around $90. How safe are these tanks? I know it is compressed air but what is the worst that could happen if damaged?

We used aluminum bottles at work for your forklifts!!!! The alum. ones are so much lighter then the steel tanks!!!!....

[Willman]

from what I have been reading the MF-1050 compressors are going to have a heck of a time building up enough air pressure to fill even a small tank with anything approaching 100 to 125psi. I was going to do this too until I researched it.

Great thread Oldsven!!!!!!

I have the same compressor....Out of curiosity......Where did you find that research????????.......I two am doing the air tank/compressor setup.....Thanks!!!

This takes me about 20 mins.....(15 psi to 35 psi)

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f374/nicwillman/DSC01123.jpg

Future air tank!!!! :luxhello:

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f374/nicwillman/Rear%20Bumper%20Buildup/DSC01208.jpg

[OldSven]

That's a sweet white Tacoma in the background:shakin: Well the tank is on the list now to find the regulator?

[flyingwil]

Well the tank is on the list now to find the regulator?

Might check Wheeler's... Here (http://www.wheelersoffroad.com/tacomaco2systems.htm) (scroll to bottom of the page)

[flyingwil]

Future air tank!!!! :luxhello:

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f374/nicwillman/Rear%20Bumper%20Buildup/DSC01208.jpg

Are you going to make your bumper into an air tank? Reminds me a the Tabasco Jeep, in the late 90's

[Willman]

nice find on the Wheelers page Flyingwil!!!!

Yes.... that is going to be my air tank....When i'm not out playing in the woods...The tank will have no psi to it.......Just incase some body crashes into me.....(knock on wood).........When i need it...flip a switch...YOU GOT AIR!!!! I'm going to tie my compressor to it w/ all the good stuff like regulators, bleeder, quick-disconnects etc....I think i might need a more beefyer compressor....Does anybody know or is running a great compressor like the one i'm talking about (besides bajataco)?? Where did Scott get his....i lost the link???

[OldSven]

Might check Wheeler's... Here (http://www.wheelersoffroad.com/tacomaco2systems.htm) (scroll to bottom of the page)
Thanks for the link. Man those things are spendy! So all I need now is the tank, regulator and hose? I just bought a new 25' Craftsman black coil hose for my compressor, will this work with the tank setup?

[asteffes]

I just found a place http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbeer/tanks/co2.shtml that has aluminum CO2 tanks for around $90. How safe are these tanks? I know it is compressed air but what is the worst that could happen if damaged?

If the head were to break off, you'll have a torpedo on your hands. :coffee:

[Willman]

If the head were to break off, you'll have a torpedo on your hands. :coffee:

Good point!! But you are going to get that with any other tank (steel/alum)!!!!!! Best thing is to build a protective cover for it and tie it down!!!!!

[OldSven]

Oh, it will be strapped down good. I'm working on getting a canopy in the next couple of weeks so it will go in there.:box:

[OldSven]

After talking with lots of welding supply places, I have found out that the way to go is nitrogen. This is what some auto-makers and tire shops are starting to fill all of their tires with. Nitrogen will not change temp. when you are driving, and will also make your tires last longer. Now for the inside tip, Costco will actually fill your tank for free in their tire center. So let me know if anyone has any input on this new setup.:clapsmile

[BajaTaco]

After talking with lots of welding supply places, I have found out that the way to go is nitrogen. This is what some auto-makers and tire shops are starting to fill all of their tires with. Nitrogen will not change temp. when you are driving, and will also make your tires last longer. Now for the inside tip, Costco will actually fill your tank for free in their tire center. So let me know if anyone has any input on this new setup.:clapsmile

Nitrogen is fine, but it won't be any faster or more convenient than plain old air. Using a tank with nitrogen or air will only reduce your wait time on airing up your tires by the volume of the tank. So unless you have a pretty large tank, I'm not sure it will save enough time to be worth the added expense, space taken, and additional weight. If you are going to use air lockers on your vehicle, then that is a good reason to have a small tank. Nitrogen may be cleaner and run cooler, but I wonder if the hassle is really going to be compensated for by much more mileage on the tires? The other thing is that once you use a tank for nitrogen, then you won't be able to fill it with your on-board compressor. And taking the tank to have it filled with nitrogen every time you use it will be a pain in the butt since you will maybe only get to fill one or two tires depending on the size of the tank. What tank are you planning on using?

[david despain]

After talking with lots of welding supply places, I have found out that the way to go is nitrogen. This is what some auto-makers and tire shops are starting to fill all of their tires with. Nitrogen will not change temp. when you are driving, and will also make your tires last longer. Now for the inside tip, Costco will actually fill your tank for free in their tire center. So let me know if anyone has any input on this new setup.:clapsmile


arrrrggg!!!!!! : beats head on wall: :eek: first let it be known i am not attacking anyone here and i have only the intention of sharing information. i hate it when places like welding shops and gas supply and others that seem to be in the know diseminate horribly inacurate information like this as gospel. i hear it all the time and it just makes me mad. i have found most of the time its not deliberate deception just a lack of understanding that drives this type of stuff. http://www.irtools.com/products/nitrogen/ except for this, this is mostly BS for the sake of selling a product to people that dont need it. missing from your post is the one that upsets me more than anything else in the world, "they put it in airplane tires becasue its inert"

lets examine pure facts for a second. first and foremost the air you and i breathe is 78% nitrogen already! it will heat up just like any gas will and will change temp as the friction from driving heats up the tire. it will expand like any gas will, thus changing the pressure inside the tire, thats why you are not supposed to check or adjust tire press when the tire is hot. always let it cool down.
as for making them last longer, perhaps. without oxygen inside the tire there would be no posibility of oxidation or ozone damage BUT ONLY FROM THE INSIDE. i have never met anyone that replaced a tire because the inside was "just worn out". it cant help with tread wear or damage. as for the tire holding air longer i just dont see how this is a valid claim. since we already know that normal atmosphere is 78% N2 how can we expect the remaining 22% being replaced with more nitrogen to provide some miracle that will keep pressure in the tire for some unreasonalbe amount of time? the things that costco try to ply you with to spend your money there are just marketing ploys.

now lets look at why i put nitrogen into tires everyday at my job. (aside from the #1 reason which is the Maint. Manual says i will).
#2 i need higher press than the shop air is at. the tires on my planes take from 105 to 180 psi. it would take a day and half to wait for the compressor to keep cycling on and off to get enough air in just for the nose tires, and it wont even get close to the main wheel tire press i need. a compressor that puts out high enough press would cost a whole lot more than N2 costs even over many years. car tires need about 35 psi or even lets say 50 psi, so no need for nitrogen yet.
#3 corrosion. the wheels are 2 piece aluminum sealed with an oring. when a 80,000 lb plane plops down onto the runway you dont want corrosion to cause a crack in the wheel and cause it to let go forcing you to go carreening off the runway. and why does it slow down and prevent corrosion? it is not because its inert! as some will try to tell you. its becasuse its dry. there may be some moisture present in shop air if you dont have a really good filter dryer. so this may be a reason to use nitrogen but how many people have changed wheels for corrosion? maybe a few but not many.
#4 convience. its 95 feet across the hangar so its much easier to wheel the bottle out to the plane than to fool around with an air hose thats over 100 feet long. not to mention if i had to service anything out on the ramp out in front of the hangar. not so much a problem with a car in the garage but i can see where it might be handy.

so for a normal everday use compressed nitrogen is really not needed. espcially for the added expense over convential systems. now for fourwheeling i can see where a portable nitrogen tank would be pretty dang cool. truth be told this is the route i plan on using someday if a regulator falls into my lap as i already have a few different size bottle laying around and all the nitrogen i need here at work. but the biggest problem here is the lack of volume. since the CO2 systems all use liquid co2 they have hundreds of times the available "air" to run tools and fill tires than you could get out of the same size nitrogen bottle thats just fill with the gaseous form nitrogen. if it were just to air up 4 tires and you had about 1800 psi of Nirtogen you would probably be ok with a comparable sized bottle to the co2 systems but you would quickly run out of air if you used it to run air tools or try to reseat a bead and then have to also air up at the end of the day. for all PRACTICAL purposes the exisiting co2 systems are the cheapest and easist to use and maintain. or you could use an electric air compressor too.
again not trying to hassle anyone but there is a LOT of misinformation out there on putting nitrogen in tires. sorry for the rant.
ps looks like BT got in a post while i was typing, he has some very good points

[david despain]

upon rereading this entire thread i wish to comment on the original question in the first post and clarify the co2 thing a bit. it asked if you could plumb the compressor into the co2 tank for a backup, and from other posts perhaps some are not aware of how it works. you cant add a fitting to the co2 tank to use it as a storage for a compressor. the co2 tank holds LIQUID co2 in the tank under a fairly high pressure with gaseous co2 on top of the liquid. as you use some to fill up your tires or run tools or what have you the regulator ensures that this high press only comes out at 110-150 psi or whatever u have the reulator set to. this allows a little more room inside the tank and the liquid co2 actually boils off and more gaseous co2 replaces the amount u just used. this happens until there is no more liquid left to boil off then you get it refilled with liquid co2 again. so now you can see how it would be imposible to add compressed air to the tank, you would need a seperate storage tank for the compressor

[OldSven]

Thanks for the info. The welding shop said something about how the molecule is larger so it won't change pressure. But anyway, I am going to keep my compressor as a back up or for the girlfriend's car for road trips and what not. As for the Nitrogen i was told to pick up a bottle about 3' tall (can't remember the lbs. per something), this would be able to air up around (from what told) 25-40 tires depending on their size. And with an airtool check what the amount of air it uses would tell me how fast it would drain the bottle. I like all of the input I get here though, saves alot of money down the drain:D

[david despain]

ummmm yeeeaaaahhh. so hopefully from my previous post you can tell why the guys down to the shop are not really giving you the right answer as to why the press changes. i dont know if they are trying to make a quick buck off you or they really dont understand it but now you know they are wrong. i hope i dont get too nerdy here on you but there is a law called the combined Charles Boyles law. i dont rememeber if it was charles or boyles who came up with which part but at any rate it states that for EVERY gas as temp goes up so does pressure, and as volume goes down press goes up. and so it holds true that as pressure goes up so does temp if the volume doesnt change, and so on. this is not a theory it is a LAW. it has nothing to do with the size of the molecules.
lets examine an example of just street driving so the volume of our tires does not change. we air up with pure nitrogen and drive off down the road, after a while friction from the road and the sun and the hot blacktop etc. all heat up the tire so that its a good amount warmer than it was in our shady garage. using the combined charles boyles law since the volume remained constant and the temp went up then the pressure HAD to go up as well. its just simple math, and math is the one constant in the world that can not be argued and is universally understood by all cultures. math makes the world go round. feel free to take off your big chemistry class eye goggles now and put away your lab equipment class. as a side note in my physics and chem class in high school we called this equation the pervert equation and heres why. its really the pervnert equation as pressure is = to the inverse volume x temp. hmm it doesnt make as much sense when i type it and im sure no one else cares.

p v1 t
______
p1 v t1

[SEREvince]

here's a little more info for you,

http://www.powertank.com/charts.specs

I built my own C02 system for about $120. I am know running a 20lb tank and it fills my tire(1) in about 30 seconds. I normally air down to about 12-15psi. I run 285/75/16s at about 35psi on the road. According to the powertank chart I can fill 40 tires of that size! I didn't see the air tool chart, but if I recall a 15lb tank could run a impact for about 8 mins(continously) or remove something like 100 lugnuts. The refills cost about $15 and can be done at any fire extinguisher supply store and many paintball and 4WD supply stores as well. It is also portable so if your buddies rig breaks in the middle of the trail, you can just carry it up and have him up and running in no time. It will also allow to reseat a broken bead, which is well beyond the capabilities of most compressors. The liquid state of the Co2 allows for much more volume than a comparable size air tank and is much safer than you think. The tank is only under about 300psi of pressure, which is just over twice what a air compressor will put out, NOTHING like a SCUBA type tank which can be 3000-5000 psi (steel DIN tanks). A Co2 tank will not shoot through the side of your rig even under the worst case of you whacking the valve clean off. Besides the fact that you can easily protect the valve from damage with a guard.

Oh well there's my $.02 and then some.


I do check my tank by weight before any trip. (the tank gauge is useless on a Co2 tank BTW it measures pressure which is constant! NOT liquid volume.).

But if I do happen to run out you know I love you guys with the bling onboard air compressor/tank set ups right?

Cheers

Vince

[OldSven]

So what is the final verdict:confused: I am going to keep the compressor but as far as Co2 or Nitrogen which is the way to go? The Co2 seems to be around $15 to refill (but might be safer). Or there is Nitrogen which would be free to refill. I would go with a powertank except for the $300 price tag that comes with them.

[david despain]

ok i think i see where u are going with this. are u thinking that u could get the folks at costco to fill up your nitrogen bottle for you before you head out wheeling? if thats the case then no way, uhnuh, nope, this aint gonna work. heres why. i cant see them putting more than say about 100 psi in a tank for you. i just dont see how they could be capable of more than that and since some people report they wont even mount bigger tires for libility reasons they sure as heck arent gonna fill you up to 2000psi. with a bottle of approx the size u are talking about even at 100 psi i bet you wouldnt have enough to air up 4 off road size tires. you are gonna have to carry at least 1000 psi to be of any real use and i would really think more than that (2 grand maybe)if u ever wanted to run air tools. then not only would it be kinda dangerous it may even be illeageal with out the proper hazmat training and markings etc. this is one of the things that makes co2 so attractive; once its liquid there is only a few hundred psi of "air pressure" for lack of a better term on top of it in the tank. it for some reason u did rupture the tank it would just boil off very quickly and i bet loudly with out making a rocket out of the bottle.

it looks to me like that green bottle that someone posted earlier is an oxygen bottle and those are normally serviced to 1800 psi. that would probably be ok for a few tires but the bottle is kinda dangerous and nowhere that has that kinda pressure will fill it for free. at an airport the fee for nitrogen service ranges from 15-50$ sometimes more.

here is my opionion and its worth what u paid for it, co2. its easily sourced for fills, realitively cheap to assemble a tank set-up, safe as can be, portable to take to another vehicle to run tools or seat beads or fill tires, lots of high cfm flow at a great pressure. its main draw back is it can run out on you leaving you with out a way to air up. since you already have an elec back up compressor you have that base covered and so the tank cant leave you stranded.
there are cheaper sources than power tank for complete turn key packages, i dont have any links handy but im sure some one does. the big trade off between a good high end elec compressor and a co2 system for about the same money is you have to pay to fill the tank, but with elec you have to upgrade the electrical system and plumb in a storage tank and unless you spend a LOT of $$$ you still wont have the continuous high cfm flow of the co2.
there it is in a nut shell. hope it helps

[OldSven]

Ok, so I'm sold on the Co2. Now for the tank, will that aluminum tank that I found earlier from the beverage palce be ok? I will just have to get the tank and a regulator. Thanks for the help.

[madizell]

Something to keep in mind about running CO2. Maybe it will be important where you live and drive, maybe not.

Last winter here in Alaska one of the guys who was sold on CO2 went out to the glacier on a run, dropped a tire in a crevice and popped a bead. So, he drug out the CO2 to reseat the bead and found that his full tank of gas made just about no pressure. Certainly it made insufficient pressure to force his 38+ inch tire back on the rim. Tempertures were around -10f.

Mention was made above about the CO2 boiling off the top of the liquid. This happens, just like water, at different points depending on the combination of pressure and temperature. (Partial pressure is the term that sticks in my mind, but science class was in a different century). When it gets cold outside, the temperature of the tank drops to the boiling point of the CO2, less and less gas boils off, and then none. I don't remember the boiling point of CO2, but I think at low pressures it is somewhere between freezing (32 degrees) and room temperature. So, as long as the tank stays relatively warm, the system works fine. When it gets to freezing outside, the tank either won't produce much flow or pressure, or will stop entirely. Someone with a more scientific background could perhaps report on the operating temperature range of a liquid CO2 tank. I know that the guys here in Alaska tried for two hours to get the bead seated on the rim and failed using CO2. He had to borrow someone else's spare to drive out. No one thought of putting the tank inside the vehicle to warm it up first.

I know. In the desert it won't matter. But sometimes it gets cold there, too.

[madizell]

Well, I went looking for information on the boiling point of CO2, and found that the boiling point is lower than I had thought (like -109). But, for purposes of airing tires using liquid CO2, the point is still the same. I found a chart which gave values for pressure at different temperatures, and the chart showed that CO2 at 31c (87.8 f) would produce 73 atmospheres (significant pressure - somewhere near 1,000 pounds I think). But, at -56c, it produces only 5.1 atmospheres (maybe 70 to 80 pounds). Minus 56 celcius is something like minus 68 degrees f, which is really cold, no doubt, but I have seen minus 55 right outside the door here, and the pressure drop from desert hot to winter cold is substantial. The point, I guess, is that there is a pressure gradient for CO2 that is driven by temperature as long as the volume remains constant, and the usable pressure of a CO2 tank decreases significantly as the outside temperature drops. If you have large tires and need to seat a bead, drive an air tool, or inflate a large tire, having only 70 psi at low volume might not get the job done. Be prepared to keep your tank warm in order to get proper performance from it.

[david despain]

^^^ thats a fine point about the temp and vapor pressure thing, however under "normal" circumstances i doubt if it would casuse too much problem. as i was reading your post i kept thinking "wow thats cold, and a huge tire. they should keep the tank inside the cab" this type of thing is the same reason that you would put a little 1 lb can of freon in a tub of warm water when servicing a system back in the olden days. its also a big concern with nitrious oxide systems on race cars for proper tuning its essential to have constant pressure i think it would be super trick to have a heater blanket on a co2 air system in really cold places such as Alaska. :Wow1: something like this http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?Ntt=nitrous&N=115+4294858254&Ntk=KeywordSearch

[SEREvince]

Just to clarify, the tank pictured is mine. It's a standard tank used for Co2, mixed welding gases etc. I tried to paint it green to match the apearance of my Taco and ended up looking like I stole from some ederly person in a wheelchair:D I have since upgraded to a polished aluminum 20lb tank with a neck guard, not for lack of volume. Pretty much just got a great deal on it. Plus it's super bling! The regulator cost about $40 and the rest was nickle and dime. If you don't count the cost of my original tank, I have less than $100 in the new system with fill. $100 doesn't buy a whole lot of air compressor IMO.

Cheers

Vince

[madizell]

^^^ thats a fine point about the temp and vapor pressure thing, however under "normal" circumstances i doubt if it would casuse too much problem. as i was reading your post i kept thinking "wow thats cold, and a huge tire. they should keep the tank inside the cab" this type of thing is the same reason that you would put a little 1 lb can of freon in a tub of warm water when servicing a system back in the olden days. its also a big concern with nitrious oxide systems on race cars for proper tuning its essential to have constant pressure i think it would be super trick to have a heater blanket on a co2 air system in really cold places such as Alaska. :Wow1: something like this http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?Ntt=nitrous&N=115+4294858254&Ntk=KeywordSearch

Quite right. I mentioned it only so that someone thinking of using CO2 would also realize that temperature is very important to just how well the system will work. It would also have impact as the system is depleted. It's like taking a dead spray can and soaking it in hot water, just to get that last squirt of paint or whatever. Sometimes ideas that are perfect in warm country don't work in the cold, but we just don't see it coming until it happens. It also doesn't have to be 50 below before a CO2 tank would become equal to a bicycle pump. The decline in performance is a exponential gradient, not a linear one. Just dropping the tank down to 30 degrees would see a significant drop in performance, and thermal mass being what it is, it could take a long time, perhaps a hour or more, to warm a full tank once it is chilled.

Just provoking thought here, not running down the idea of CO2. Personally, I have two onboard air systems, and all the free air I can use. The way I look at it, the CO2 could be great, until the tank runs dry in the middle of nowhere. Then it is just a tank, and even if you could pressurize it with air, it would hold almost nothing, being only a 2 or 3 gallon tank to start with. Without a backup system, it could be a long day if the CO2 runs out. Even if someone wants to run CO2, I think they should have a backup plan.

[OldSven]

Well if I were to plumb in a lets say 5 gallon tank with my current compressor how far will that take me? A few tires? Or more than I think? Now to see if I want to pony up the money yet or just run what I got:sport_box

[saltamontes]

my understanding is that compressed air or CO2 is wet, wet, wet and its that moisture that leads to variations in pressure when the moisture is heated in the tire.

additionally, as some have pointed out, moisture may rust the inside of the rim. That rust gets airborn when opening the valve and minute particles of rust will prevent the valve from closing completely thus leading to a very slow leak at the valve stem. i have no idea whether this is true, but i did read it somewhere.

if your source of nitrogen does not adaquately dry the gas, the entrained water vapor defeats many perceived benefits. remember, its all about dry gas, whether that be air, CO2, nitrogen, helium, etc.

what to do?
an old jeeper trick is to pour rustoleum type paint into your bumper tank and slosh it around to rustproof the inside.
additionally, get a good air dryer (prob dessicant-based for small size) and use your onboard compressor/bumper-based air tank.

[Gear]

Just read thru the entire thread and have a couple of questions. I want to mount my Powertank inside my Jeep Rubicon 4 door JK. It will fit nicely on the rear roll bar with there bracket and clamps. My question is regarding safety. Can I keep the powertank inside the Jeep on a day to day basis while having two kids in the back seat. The tank will be mounted very securely. I am concerned about the blow off valve and our ears should it let loose. I talked to a friend who also mentioned that if the CO2 leaks it could cause you to pass out. Any thoughts.

Thanks

[spressomon]

Just read thru the entire thread and have a couple of questions. I want to mount my Powertank inside my Jeep Rubicon 4 door JK. It will fit nicely on the rear roll bar with there bracket and clamps. My question is regarding safety. Can I keep the powertank inside the Jeep on a day to day basis while having two kids in the back seat. The tank will be mounted very securely. I am concerned about the blow off valve and our ears should it let loose. I talked to a friend who also mentioned that if the CO2 leaks it could cause you to pass out. Any thoughts.

Thanks


Have had mine in the drawer that resides inside my LC for the past 2+ years without issue. Used to get the tank filled at the dry ice shop...but after one of the idiots there overfilled it and caused the safety valve to release (when that happens you need to have it pressure tested to the tune of about $40 + another fill charge) I only have it refilled at a fire extinguisher supply house here...

Point: As long as you have someone experienced, competent & trustworthy fill the tank I don't think you have much to worry about. Not much different than checking your exhaust system now and then to prevent carbon monoxide from building up in the cabin.

[Andrew Walcker]

I've had my CO2 tank in the back of the D-90 for at least 1.5 years with no problems or concerns.

[Steve Curren]

I have been using Co2 for a number of years now and I find it great. I did have the safely valve blow once, I was out in the hot Arizona sun with the top off and was not paying attention. We were working on another vehicle and as I left the valve blew, I was able to get a bottle of water in the stream and I sure had a nice cold drink.

[T&A-XJ]

I started out running CO2 and decided to convert my AC compressor to OBA. While I wont convert and lose AC again I will add a york on my next set up. For me there were 4 main reasons to convert to OBA;

1) I kept running out mid trail run or halfway through airing back up.

2) Space, I carry my family and all their things, that space is much more useful carrying the kitchen sink.

3) Reading stories about the safety valve popping and filling the cabin w/ CO2 didn't interest me much for my kids in the back seat.

4) In the event of a rollover, that plastic or even tubular valve guard isn't going to help much resulting in the above situation and making the situation that much worse.

I see you are looking at a simple solution which the CO2 tank does provide and having a pick-up does eliminate a few of those concerns. Watch how much you use and be conservative. Sometimes a single trail run can provide several times to use air which can leave you empty faster than anticipated.

[devinsixtyseven]

A few more random factoids...

CO2 sinks. If the valve blows in the cab, open the door...the gas will spill out. I had the same concern keeping 15# (truck) and 20# (welder) CO2 tanks in the garage.

All the aluminum CO2 bottles are made by the same company, so I heard from the guy from whom I recently got a 20# bottle for 135$. That homebrewer supply price is great, if I'd known when I was buying a tank, I'd be running a pair of 10# tanks for redundancy and low-height storage (fit under the bed rails, ie under a rear-open RTT), and a large compressor in addition to the tiny one running the lockers.

Sounds like a lot, but I've on two occasions been unable to use the regulator mounted on the tank...the first time I had no spare reg and had to drive back to Moab on 20psi (REALLY glad I didn't drop to 10psi!), the second time I was carrying a spare and the only reason the first wasn't working was grit in the quick release. I've also had the bottle run out and needed a compressor to finish the job.

Maybe it's the AeroE education, but I always prefer backup plans for my backup plans...separated, dedicated systems with overlap for emergencies...but that translates to more weight and more money.

It's not hard to plumb a block to run your lockers (or your air source) from either the dedicated compressor, spare compressor, or CO2.

CO2 is vastly easier and cheaper to deal with than nitrogen, it is also lighter and safer to store, just keep an eye on your tire pressure as it will sink. If you're always airing up and down, nitrogen is a waste...keep it in the shop for when you're home, and for shocks.

Best solution is run both CO2 and OBA of some sort. Doesn't matter which you use as primary, so long as you have both.

-Sean

[vengeful]

I agree with what devinsixtyseven said.

I've had a 10lb CO2 tank in the back of my Pathfinder for going on 2.5 years now. I've never had any problems with it, and it's always kept in the truck, until recently, when I decided to relocate the mount to build a new cargo drawer. I didn't have a problem with the tank when I was in Phoenix, in 118 degree heat, and I haven't had any problems with it in Rochester, with 3 Degree cold.

I had a tank let go in the garage once, several years ago. Make a pretty loud racket, and covered everything with snow. Scared the bejeezus out of me, but didn't cause any harm.

I like the simplicity of the CO2 system. You don't need a running engine, or battery power to run it. You don't have to worry about motor heat, you don't have to worry about running electric. But, that's all a trade-off for not having a renewable air source.

As Devinsixtyseven said, in order to be truly prepared, you should have both. CO2 in case the compressor fails, and the compressor in case you run out of CO2, whichever way you have the primary source set up. Currently, I only have CO2, but I am building an On-Board Air Compressor (York Based, electric...yeahhhh :) to replace the CO2 as primary air source. CO2 will accompany in the vehicle as a backup to the compressor in case of failure or need for a portable air source.

[BMAN]

Great reading in this thread. Everyone has touched on just about every facet that I could think of so I will simply tell you that I have run CO2 in the FJ40 as long as I've owned it. I bought my entire CO2 rig from a fellow wheeler who converted to OBA. I have never had any issue with failures of seal or regulators. The tank sits exposed in the back of my topless 40 year round in Phoenix. I have however run out of air during fill up and had te rely on other means to finish filling. My ONLY complaint about CO2 is the continual cost of refills. At $15/fill and 4 air-ups per tank (35x12.50's from 8psi to 30), a season of wheeling can get expensive.

My plan for the FJ60 is to run a York OBA with aux tank for the primary system with the CO2 for redundancy. I am currently running Lockrights but plan to eventually replace them with ARB's that will be fed by the static OBA. I also have planned to keep one of the small MV50 compressors in the rig as a secondary backup, as they are cheap and have proven to be money well spent by multiple members of our club.

It seems that youve made your decision to use CO2, a good one for sure, but you might still consider a York based OBA setup for your rig. I'll have about $150 into mine when all is said and done, but I can fab my own brackets and whatnots. If you can fab or have a good friend who can fab, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to do the same.

[crawler#976]

I've used three different systems for airing up tires.

2001: I bought a 20lb CO2 tank and used the Nitrogen regulator from my MIG welder. The regulator I bought was not specifically designed for CO2. It worked fine in the summer months, but froze solid in the winter. Initial cost was $110.00 for the tank, and it would refill approx 30 tire from trail pressure (4 to 6 PSI) to street pressure (22 to 25 PSI) at an average cost for the CO2 of $0.60 per tire.

What did I learn? Regulators must be rated for CO2 use.

2002: Since the regulator was made for Nitrogen, I tried Nitrogen. Worked fine, but had a very limited capacity for the cost. A tank roughly the same size as the 20Lb CO2 cylinder would only air up 8 tires. That averaged out to almost $2.00 PER TIRE!!!

What did I learn? Nitrogen is a dry compressed gas and doesn't have anywhere near the cubic feet of gas capacity that a similar sized tank of CO2 does. It does not freeze regulators. One huge advantage to Nitrogen is it's use for charging coil-over shocks or other emulsion shocks. The current trend in buggy building is the Air Shock, and Nitrogen is used to change the shock rate in those too. The extreme pressures in the tank are skeeery - it's a serious hazard in a roll...

Still in 2002: Sold the nitrogen setup and bought a CO2 regulator for the MIG and used it for my second CO2 setup. Worked great - Even tho the regulator and hose got frosty, it always worked properly. Nitrogen makes for a nicer weld, but CO2 is OK...

What did I learn? It still cost me $0.60 a tire, and over a 5 year period of using 2 or 3 tanks of CO2 a year, I spent enough to pay for a nice compressor.

2005: Bought a ViAir 400P to use in our two Tacos. At $229.00 it was kinda spendy, but provided reasonably fast air ups. It takes approx 8 minutes to do 4 tires on the Tacos.

What did I learn? That sucker gets HOT - kinda the opposite of the CO2 system!

2007: Sold the CO2 system, bought another (Q-Maxx) portable for the '05 Taco. Still using the ViAir in the '98 Taco. It's been used perhaps 30 times in the last two years, and when I'm on a trail ride, it usually does my tires plus anyone else in the group that doesn't have a air source. It's been very dependable, and has provided "free" air since it's initial purchase.

What did I learn? I like all three setups for different reasons, but for my needs at this time, the medium CFM compressor works fine. If I had to add one thing to my setup, it would be a storage tank that could provide enough volume/pressure to reseat a bead. Since I'm no longer doing the extreme wheelin' that caused bead failures, it's not been an issue I've had to overcome (yet).

Mark

[kjp98TJ]

i've run a york oba setup on my TJ. sold that off and bought a CO2 setup for ease and portability. sold that off and currently going back to a york. don't need a tank in my experience, doesn't improve anything. i setup an "octopus" to inflate 4 tires at once, and could do so in about 4 mins, straight off the york. unlimited air, easy setup. and can come in cheaper than C02, at least in my setup. i realize not the case for all vehicles.