ARRGGGHHH!!! Decisions about the JK or FJ.

[StumpXJ]

So, in a nutshell, when Toyota buys back my 98 Taco because of the frame rust issue, I am going to be needing a new vehicle. I am on the fence about two vehicles, the 08 Toyota FJ Cruiser, and the 08 Rubicon.

Because we are over here in Germany, we are limited to buying what is offered at the Military/US car sales places. They sell both Toyota and Jeep (among other vehicles), but with Toyota's, you buy what they have, with no ability to change options etc. The Jeeps, you can order to suit.

So, I can get a FJ with the rear E-locker, but thats about it. It has fancy alloy wheels that I could care less about, Street tires which would have to be replaced with MT's asap, and I cant get some of the stuff I would want.

Or, I can get a JK with 32"BFG MT's, Front AND rear Lockers, solid front axle, any options/colors I wanted, and rediculous amounts of aftermarket support.

Whats my problem? I cant decide which to get. Its seems like it would be a no brainer and go with the Jeep. But, I have been very happy with Toyota in the past, and I am not sure if I am ready to take the plunge and become a "Jeep guy". I dont know much about Jeeps, and the amount of aftermarket support is a bit overwhelming. My toyota, I know inside and out, and I am familiar with most of the aftermarket stuff available.

Someone guide me or talk some sense into me, or tell me im an idiot. I realize this is the Jeep forum and thus the opinions may be biased, but I am looking for guidance here....

Did anyone get a 2 door and wish they had gotten the 4 door? or Vice Versa?

~James

[TheGillz]

We looked at JK 4-door, FJ, and X-terra's when we were getting our new car.

For us the X-terra was ruled out because of the back seat entry, way to cramped for a vehicle of that size, the back cargo area was the largest, but with a newfoundland taking up residence there, we figured on the back being just the dogs area, we figured while nice for her, a waist for us. They seemed to make a huge cargo area at the expence of the rear passengers.

FJ had HORRIBLE blind spots and the back windows didn't roll down IIRC. No way that will fly with two young girls. The other thing that we didn't like about the FJ, is that you can't get one and option it up, it seemed that it was all options or nothing. And we didn't have over 30k to spend, our budget was 25k.

We ended up loving our JK 4 door X model. Perfect room in the back for the dog, back seats for the kids, and front for us, there are compromises, not much storage especially up front. No room for "trinkets and trash" unless you are handy and make a mount for everything. But there is this also:

ITS A FREAKING CONVERTABLE!!!:luxhello: :luxhello:

The aftermarket is expansive, but don't take that as overwhelming, it keeps prices down and quality up! I can't recomend them highly enough....

[shane4x4]

As a former Jeep owner I can sympathize with you. For me, the major factor is build quality. My FJ is not absolutely perfect, but it's solid and I'm not worried about it developing chronic issues down the road. I've owned 4 jeeps in the past (3 XJ's & 1 ZJ), and they all developed chronic maintenance issues after about 75K miles.

What I really like about the FJ:
-Quality
-VERY good aftermarket support
-The community
-It is truly multi-purpose

Things that the Rubi has over the FJ
-SFA (for SUPER serious rock crawling)
-A little more cargo room in the Unlimited
-Front locker

Issues I have with the Rubi
-Quality
-It's underpowered
-Less of a multi-purpose vehicle
-The community is HUGE & at least 50% are not cool
-Great aftermarket support, but really TOO many vendors

Hope this helps a little, I'm sure others will have helpful comments as well.

Good luck!

[DaveInDenver]

Think about how long you're gonna own this truck. You are over in Germany for a few years, but will be back in the US eventually, right? So you get the Jeep and it's got a couple of things you want right now and that's fine. The FJC has lots and lots of aftermarket, too. But my idea of ownership seems to be a little different than average. When I look for a car, I think decades and so I'm not too worried about the immediate satisfaction and wonder which truck will still be with me in 10 years. But your Taco with the frame issues, yeah I'd probably second guess myself.

Seems to me that the e-locker is the main thing to get and just about everything else is gonna be ARB, All Pro, Budbuilt and whatever. Wheels, I like the look of stock steels, but the alloys would not bother me (they are lighter, which is good, and I run American Racing alloys anyway). Oh, I guess I would want the stick shift instead of the auto, too. But otherwise I'd have guessed in both the Jeep and Toyota you'll end up using aftermarket bits or knowing you, it'll be fabbed up stuff. Optional and subjective stuff like body color, which radio, towing package, etc., IMHO I couldn't really care too much. White is good, but blue, red, green, black, whatever. Oh, I hate leather seats, but that's not a problem on either of these trucks. I prefer crank windows and manual locks, but I'm not sure you can get stuff like that anymore in cars.

You know as well as I do, the Trail Teams have gotten stock FJ Cruisers (with BFG ATs, sliders and maybe a skid plate as non-factory options) through the Rubicon, Tellico, Golden Spike. They are plenty capable.

[Scott Brady]

I have spent a lot of time with both, including very technical terrain. I have driven JKs over the Rubicon, FJs in Moab, Baja with the FJ, etc.

Here is my opinion: Remember, no one vehicle is perfect. Perfect for you maybe, but never perfect for everyone, so these are just my thoughts, based on my filter of vehicle expectations.

FJ- Drives like a car on the road, reliable and has good trail performance. Ergonomics, visibility and odd styling (side and rear) kills it for me.

Pros:
1. Amazing road ride and drive. Quiet.
2. Great motor. Only lists 30 more hp than the Jeep, but feels like 50 more
3. Very little shudder and good handling at speed in the dirt.
4. Typical Toyota quality and reliability

Cons:
1. "what were they thinking" visibility
2. Frame, body mount and suspension weaknesses
3. Coffin-like in the rear passenger area
4. A wheel lifter on the trail
5. Ground clearance is not on par with previous gen Tacomas and 4Runners

JK 4-Door- The Jeep has fully evolved. It has the road comfort of a Grand Cherokee and is the most trail capable vehicle ever sold in North America.

Pros:
1. Class-leading trail performance
2. Extremely stable, with class-leading articulation
3. Solid front and rear D44 axles with locking differentials
4. Great visibility, open, bright interior
5. 4:1 Transfer-case, front swaybar disconnect and 32" tires from the factory
6. A major improvement on fit-finish and quality

Cons:
1. "What were they thinking" motor. Actually, it drives just like a 3.4 Tacoma motor, but a little harsh and flat at the higher revs.
2. 4.10:1 axle gearing is not low enough for the 32" tires (I have already swapped to 5:13)
3. No diesel :(
4. Ride and drive is much more truck-like
5. There are a lot of knuckleheads that drive Jeeps (higher percentage of knuckleheadedness than Land Rover or Toyota). I believe the JK community will split, and be different/ better. There are a lot of JK specific forums now and the feel is a lot better.

I think the reliability concerns are mostly a mute point now, as you can buy the Jeep and get a lifetime warranty. I also researched the Jeeps at length (and queried my engineering contacts at Jeep) regarding reliability. All indications are that the Merc. ownership greatly improved quality and reliability. Time will tell...

[DaveInDenver]

2. Frame, body mount and suspension weaknesses
Can you expand on this? The FJC is based on the Prado chassis and I have heard about the body ripping in the crumple zone. But since it shares a platform with the 4th gen 4Runner and 2nd gen Tacoma, I'd be interested in hearing the story here. I was not aware there is a fundamental frame or suspension issue with the 120 platform.

All indications are that the Merc. ownership greatly improved quality and reliability
I'd have hoped that MB ownership would raise the level of QA, but do you think that with the sale to Cerberus and any subsequent money or re-org issues that quality and design might stagnate or revert back to pre-German ownership days? How does the departure of Mike Donoughe potentially affect their body-on-frame platforms development?

[WFTW]

It would help to know what your intentions are with the vehicle. Will you be racing across the desert, enjoying backroad drives through the mountains, mudding, rock crawling, or a combination of those?

While I like the FJs, and even considered buying one for about a whole two minutes, I went with the JK for one major reason (and a mess of little ones). That major reason was flexibility.

There are SO many things you can do to a JK. The aftermarket for Jeeps is probably the most vast of any vehicle. If that worries you, don't let it. There are a plethera of forums on the internet to help you sort out which brands are better than others. While you say you are familiar with the Toyotas but not with Jeeps, I'd imagine a Jeep wouldn't be too difficult for you...it's still a motor vehicle, has an engine, wheels, axles, brakes, shocks, etc...you'll figure it out.

Let me ask you this...have you ever driven a Jeep with the top and doors off? If not, do so...your decision will be made. :D

[Scott Brady]

Can you expand on this? The FJC is based on the Prado chassis and I have heard about the body ripping in the crumple zone. But since it shares a platform with the 4th gen 4Runner and 2nd gen Tacoma, I'd be interested in hearing the story here. I was not aware there is a fundamental frame or suspension issue with the 120 platform.

I'd have hoped that MB ownership would raise the level of QA, but do you think that with the sale to Cerberus and any subsequent money or re-org issues that quality and design might stagnate or revert back to pre-German ownership days? How does the departure of Mike Donoughe potentially affect their body-on-frame platforms development?

Yes, the body ripping due to crumple-zone frame flex, the knuckles need to be reinforced for any hard use (they will bend). Body mount interference with any tire size over stock.

It is hard to say on quality moving forward, but Toyota is killing everyone because of their quality. So, that forces all others to step that up, or die...

It is impossible to know the future of the Wrangler, though this one will be around for at least another 4-5 years. They sell the heck out of these Wranglers, so I do not expect Jeep to mess with a good thing.

[Azlugz]

As a former Jeep owner I can sympathize with you. For me, the major factor is build quality. My FJ is not absolutely perfect, but it's solid and I'm not worried about it developing chronic issues down the road. I've owned 4 jeeps in the past (3 XJ's & 1 ZJ), and they all developed chronic maintenance issues after about 75K miles.

What I really like about the FJ:
-Quality
-VERY good aftermarket support
-The community
-It is truly multi-purpose

Things that the Rubi has over the FJ
-SFA (for SUPER serious rock crawling)
-A little more cargo room in the Unlimited
-Front locker

Issues I have with the Rubi
-Quality
-It's underpowered
-Less of a multi-purpose vehicle
-The community is HUGE & at least 50% are not cool
-Great aftermarket support, but really TOO many vendors

Hope this helps a little, I'm sure others will have helpful comments as well.

Good luck!


So, you have no issues with the FJ....

As for the 50% uncool in the Jeep world, have you not for the same in the Toy world, I see notheing to do with the brand here and all to do with the people involed and there are bad on both sides......yes, I am a Jeep guy but a lot of my friends drive toys and I can out wheel them...in certian spots, but they out wheel me in others, its a give and take. I also know a group of people drive JK's from stok to modded and all are having great luck. This choice should really come down to what you are going to do with it. If you are going to rock crawl it hard, the jeep has the solid axle and that makes it easier to mod as a crawler where the IFS of the Toy is a lot weaker, but if you want to Baja, again the Jeep has a solid axle and this is NOT good for high speed bumps where the Toy's IFS can be set up in a long travel system and handle it great.

the advice should be based on the need, not the class of other drivers in the brand and not on what someone else drives in a different situation.

[StumpXJ]

Guys, these post's remind why I love it here.. Thanks a ton for the input, and remaining civilized.

However, my Wife and I Just got back from dinner, and had quite a long/involved discussion about some things. Allow me to introduce "plan C"

One of the main reasons we came to Germany with her job is so we could pay off all of our debts, and save some money, among other obvious things (such as living in Europe mortgage free and being able to travel this great area at will). We have been here for 2.5 years already, and have 2.5 more to go before we head back to the States. That being said, our plans to be debt free and have a nice chunk in saving is completely doable, but MUCH harder if we throw another 20 thou (about what I would need to borrow to get either vehicle) of debt in our way. Here is the optional plan, mentioned by my wife I should add.

In the US, we have a bought and paid for 1996 Jeep XJ. We decided to not sell that vehicle before coming here so we would have a vehicle to drive when we come home to visit. This has proved to work very well for us, except the burden of upkeep, insurance and taxes has been put on my in-laws while we are here. (we sold the Jeep to them for $1.00 so they could register it as their own) Its a 4.0L 4X4, automatic, with 170,000 very well maintained miles. I have performed all of the service on this vehicle since it had about 45,000 miles, and all of the ancillary equipment replaced recently (starter, alternator, AC comp., upgraded aftermarket radiator etc.) Basically this thing runs like a top, and I would have no worries about taking it cross-country. It is bone stock, but I think it would provide a nice platform to build off of. I am not certain, but I think this year is one of the "better" years of XJ correct?

Basically, after Toyota buys back my Tacoma, I will have about 8 grand to play with. My Wife has given me "permission" to use this money to:

1. Have the XJ shipped over here (about $2,000-$2,500)
2. Modify the heck out of it how I want done (using the remainder of the cash, about 6 grand)


I am the type who will build my own bumpers and armor, and I will be keeping all of my other wheeling stuff from my current taco (winch, lights, recovery stuff, fridge, etc.)

I am thinking I can use the majority of the money for a lift, Tires/wheels, materials to build new armor, lockers/gears, and maybe have enough left over for a RTT. ( :D )

After she mentioned this, I was thinking I would have no problem "beating" on this jeep, but I think I would have some reservations about sending a new JK or FJ through the woods and rocks.

I am almost 30 years old, and I am trying (for the life of me) to do the "right/sensible" thing here.

Any thoughts?

[TheGillz]

That sounds like a great plan and you have a smart woman, take advantage of her sensibilities, she obviously cares about letting you do things you love, and I think being able to build up a reliable XJ sounds like a blast. I say plan C works out great!

[StumpXJ]

James' smart woman has hijacked his account and agrees with you :)

~Meghan (the Wife)

[adrenaline503]

I think XJs are a great platform, I had a 96 and the only problems I had were ones caused by my poor judgment. Building an XJ is way cheap, there are tons of stuff out there.

[TheGillz]

James' smart woman has hijacked his account and agrees with you :)

~Meghan (the Wife)

:xxrotflma

I am suffering from the same affliction ( :violent-smiley-031: ) err, I mean....:sunflower

I truly have a wife worthy of :bowdown:

:hehe: :suning:

[StumpXJ]

I need to learn to log out more...LOL. :D

So, what are some of the disadvantages to the XJ? Only thing I can think of is maybe the Unibody. I see plenty of them being wheeled, so it cant be that big of a problem??

The 4.0Liter straight 6 is a torque monster as far as I can tell, and has been pretty dang reliable. I know there were some issues with the oil leaks, possibly rear main??

The only real "problem" we had with thus far was overheating fairly easily, but we fixed that (I think) with a huge aftermarket 4 row radiator, forgot who makes it, but it had a huge effect on cooling.

Anything else? (nothing like Hi-jacking my own thread.)

~James

[Life_in_4Lo]

keeping the XJ sounds like a sensible and inexpensive route. I don't know anything about it except my friend used to have one and liked it a lot (he coincidentally now has a KJ Rubicon Unlimited).

I really like the 4 dr KJ. My second choice is the older Unlimited 2 dr just w/ a longer wheelbase (TJ?). Someone here just bought one and it looks really sharp. Both look awesome when built up. The longer wheelbase adds the climbing stability of a wagon but still a tight pkg.

What is it with the Jeep crowd? I get a bad taste nearly every time we come across them... admit that this alone is a pretty big deterrent to purchase but if I were buying new, the KJ Unlimited would be really tempting.
SFA, super flexible body (open air, hard top, build a cage, etc) and unlimited aftermarket.

TJ unlimited would maybe be #1 as the lower price (used) would allow more money for mods.

FJC is great, I have to take issue and say the frame is stout and haven't heard of problems here.

The body mount/tire clearance is a simple welding modification that allows larger tires to clear- and not really an issue unless you are going really big.

the body tears seem to have been limited to certain year but inconclusive and from all I've read, Toyota is taking care of afflicted owners.

Drivetrain/suspension is a wash to me as I've heard just as many things break, if not more, on Jeeps.

[Azlugz]

Consider purchasing some of the items and have your inlaws inventory the boxes and put them in the XJ when it ships and therefore saving some of the individaul shipping cost to send the stuff overseas

[WFTW]

1. Have the Jeep shipped to you...it's the sensible thing to do.
2. Don't have parts put into the vehicle to be shipped with the Jeep. MOST shipping companies won't cover anything except the vehicle itself and the items won't be in your vehicle when you get there. Take it from someone who knows from expierence. I shipped my Jeep to Germany and the punks that shipped it not only stole the 12" sub woofer I had in there, but a pack of cigarettes and every penny out of the place I kept spare change.

[StumpXJ]

Yeah, as much as it would be very easy to load the Jeep up with boxes of new parts, I wont be doing that. They were very strict on what is allowed in the car when we shipped our vehicle over 2.5 years ago. And as you mentioned, sticky fingers must be a requirement to work at these places.

I think I should be able to get most parts I need shipped over here fairly easy. The only thing is weight. With our APO post box, its the same as sending stuff to the states cost wise, but the weight is limited to 70 pounds. No big deal usually, except for some suspension components, but there are ways around that.

Ok, my best bet is stop going by the car lot, cause that damn JK is sweet, and I have spilled enough drool on it (same for the FJ). I will do some searching and figuring and have the old XJ shipped over most likely. Of course, all of this hinges on Toyota getting their stuff together to buy back my truck.

Thanks guys. ~James

[Scott Brady]

Don't let the unibody concern you. They only see tearing and issues with serious abuse/racing/etc. The XJ is a killer truck; I would proudly own and drive one.

[StumpXJ]

Don't let the unibody concern you. They only see tearing and issues with serious abuse/racing/etc. The XJ is a killer truck; I would proudly own and drive one.


Well that helps! Thanks Scott. ~James

[Sighthound]

Buy a LHD 1985 Land Rover 90 or 110. That should be 25 years old by the time you return. It would be cheap and conceivably paid for by the time you come back. When you return buy the Jeep or FJ and enjoy 3 great vehicles. Just a thought. A Jeep, a Toyota FJ, and a Land Rover. 3 of the most history steeped "safari" vehicles today. Just a thought.

[4Rescue]

Don't let the unibody concern you. They only see tearing and issues with serious abuse/racing/etc. The XJ is a killer truck; I would proudly own and drive one.
Here's the thing with XJU's...and I've owned a few... they turn into rattly money pits eventualy. I love the 4.0L for it's torque adn I love the looks and trail performance, but frankly, they just don't hold up well to abuse. Every single screw in the interior apears to be screwed into plastic and eventualy comes loose and...yep squeek squeek squeek rattle rattle rattle...

What I can't figure out is why Toyota went the direction they didi with the FJ, they have the rigs elsewhere in the world to copmpletely blow the JK out of the water in terms of OR capability and their reliability is something a Jeeps only dream of. Where's the 21th century FJ40 they COULD have given us. hell, where's my US legal 70 series AHHHHHHHH...

Tough choice mate, I just really don't like the new motor in teh JK, and although I'd take it over the FJ as an out of the box wheeler, I'd rather own a Toyota. Like I said, tough choice...

Cheers

Dave

[4Rescue]

Don't let the unibody concern you. They only see tearing and issues with serious abuse/racing/etc. The XJ is a killer truck; I would proudly own and drive one.
Here's the thing with XJ's...and I've owned a few... they turn into rattly money pits eventualy. I love the 4.0L for it's torque adn I love the looks and trail performance, but frankly, they just don't hold up well to abuse. Every single screw in the interior apears to be screwed into plastic and eventualy comes loose and...yep squeek squeek squeek rattle rattle rattle...

What I can't figure out is why Toyota went the direction they didi with the FJ, they have the rigs elsewhere in the world to copmpletely blow the JK out of the water in terms of OR capability and their reliability is something a Jeeps only dream of. Where's the 21th century FJ40 they COULD have given us. hell, where's my US legal 70 series AHHHHHHHH...

Tough choice mate, I just really don't like the new motor in teh JK, and although I'd take it over the FJ as an out of the box wheeler, I'd rather own a Toyota. Like I said, tough choice...

Cheers

Dave

[turner]

Well coming from a non biased opinion who has tested all three my personal favorite is the 2 door Jk.... I was formerly Toyota through and through owning many trucks and 4runners.... the only hesitation with the fj is that thing is BIG! other than that i loved it. i felt cramped drivin on 2 lane roads... so the GF insisted i drive the 4 door JK... it was ok at best. least fav of the three... i hated the looks of 4 doors. just not me. and also pretty large especially for a jeep.... now the 2 door rubicon! the styling is growing on me but driving the rubi was sweet!! i liked it alot. A/C!! nice stereo comfy seats... i liked it.... but i'm too tight to drop the cash so i'm still in my yj... but if your used to larger vehics i may go with the fj... loved every thing about it just a little overpowering for my royal smallness. good luck poot!

[Series1Rangie]

2nd buying a lhd defender. that way you can even get a diesel. You should be able to pick up a decent 22 year old one for the price of shipping the xj out and only a little of the build fund, still have money left to make it what you want, and come out with a great truck. Now admittedly I am biased. :) But it does have to do with getting your truck back again. it will cost 4-5 grand to have your xj now AND back to the US. so Instead of 6 grand for mods you are looking at 4 maybe less, if shipping continues to get more expensive. That doesn't mean you need to buy a brand new truck. That seems like a loosing propisition. Find a decent used vehicle heck even another toyota p/u throw the stuff you already fabbed onto it, use it. take the stuff back off sell it when you leave. Take the extra 4 grand you didn't spend, put it in CD's and when you are back in the states surprise the better half with money for the down payment. WIN WIN WIN. I still like the land rover option, but again, that is just me. :D

Mike

[Cruiser]

I've had Toyota's in the past and sat in a new FJ,, I refused to even drive it.. its so poorly designed ergonomically you would think it was done by Harley.. I was always a toy fan,, but also a jeep fan,, Living in the rust belt of Pa historically the older jeeps would rot away before they would stop running.. The newer Toyota's have this issue now.. The frames are just what is the big news.. I've seen too many foreign cars and trucks rot out too early its not funny.. Now as far as reliability,, I had my old 4 banger toy go 160k and ran good,, but had no floors or bed, and the back part of the frame fell off.. My Jeep(03) had just under 100K and I got within 6k of what I paid for it new when I traded it for the 07.. I put 22k miles on that in just over a year when a little old lady hit me head on.. the new jeeps can take a serious impact and protect the occupants.. Both our jeep and the other car were over 50mph..We are hurt but walked out of the crash.. As soon as I got the check I got another 2dr jk.. I agree its smarter to run your xj for the next 2.5 years.. Wish jeep still made that one.. I have buddies with ones that have over 300k miles and they are still going strong.. One of the best engines jeep ever made.. Decent platform too..