Need help deciding...

[24HOURSOFNEVADA]

Since someone decided they needed my Santa Cruz Nomad more than me (Read, they stole from my garage) I'm at a lost to what replace it with.


I loved that bike. It was like a hot rodded Lincoln. I"m thinking a Moot's but what want to hear your input. I did not use the Nomad to it's fullest capacity.

[Redline]

Sorry your stuff was ripped.

May they crash and burn!

[maximumrob]

Yep, somebody got my Trek MTB out of the garage from me about a decade ago. Am still pissed.

Go check the area garage sales. The bastard is probably selling it this weekend.

.

[Flounder]

Since someone decided they needed my Santa Cruz Nomad more than me (Read, they stole from my garage) I'm at a lost to what replace it with.


I loved that bike. It was like a hot rodded Lincoln. I"m thinking a Moot's but what want to hear your input. I did not use the Nomad to it's fullest capacity.
We've got a ton of guys around here on Yeti bikes of one flavor or another. Some of the '09 Yeti offerings are pretty sweet. I had a Moots in the mid 90s and loved, loved, loved it. Latest word is, don't anticipate getting a 29er Moots any time soon. With the 29er craze in full swing, Moots is slammed.

[24HOURSOFNEVADA]

We've got a ton of guys around here on Yeti bikes of one flavor or another. Some of the '09 Yeti offerings are pretty sweet. I had a Moots in the mid 90s and loved, loved, loved it. Latest word is, don't anticipate getting a 29er Moots any time soon. With the 29er craze in full swing, Moots is slammed.


I called Moots and they said they were about three weeks out on a medium 29'r.

[dieselcruiserhead]

Jereme if you want a Turner or Ventana let me know, they do some hardtails but both have 29er models... I do some of the internet sales for www.uintabicycles.com and would be happy to hook it up for you.. :) Cheers, andre

[24HOURSOFNEVADA]

Very cool A-, thanks for the offer.

[Kermit]

What are you looking for, another full sus? or hard tail? geared or single speed? So many flavors inbetween. I loved my Santa Cruz 4X, not too little or too much suspension. I like steel framed hard tails too. Think Soul Craft (http://www.soulcraftbikes.com/). A fan of Rocky Mountain (http://www.bikes.com/)too...

My buddy is a Moots (http://www.moots.com/#) dealer, what would like to know? Would you like to know if you buy a Moots you can stay in the extra room at the shop, so you can ride Steamboat....:D It is either free or a very small charge....(or it might just be for dealers)

Flounder do you know the lowdown on that?

[DaveInDenver]

Dang, stolen Nomad going to a Moots? That's some serious insurance payout! If you liked the Nomad, but felt it was too much bike, you'd probably be right on with a Blur LT. More traditional geometry (at least as traditional as you can get with a 4"~5" bike), rear travel is 145mm and is safe up to a 160mm fork. I run a 140mm Fox Vanilla 32 (with a leaking left seal, Doh!) on mine and it nails what I do with it, go anywhere, ride most stuff, tooling around the Rockies and Moab. Mine weighs about 28.5 lbs and is definitely not an exotic build by any stretch. It's a sorta sluggish and heavy, but I even race mine. Thing is, even with a Scott Spark, I'd be slow.

[ThomD]

unlike my road bike, my Stumpjumper is sort of soul-less, so my next bike will be a domestic boutique brand. Maybe an Intense.

[dieselcruiserhead]

I think the moots are cool, I love the titanium look and welds. But the fatique life on titanium (I use titanium with lacrosse sticks) is much worse, the weight savings in negligable, the Moots geometry is way too XC for me even in the 29er with the tall top tube, and the Ventanas are so much more durable and both are hand made in the USA in house... The Moots is nice and bling but personally given the choice I would (and am) choosing the hand made Ventana. But both are unreal options of course. I was riding with a serious Moots possy the other day, a couple of them work or worked for them, I can check on the hookup there too Jereme if need be. The only thing is I am MIA for 5 days tomorrow afternoon on a rafting trip in Colorado but if you need anything from me let me check... Retail on the Turner and Ventanas is about $1800 Turners and $1900 Ventanas, the Moots are more in the $2500 range. I am getting a new 650b Ventana called the Bastardo. I had the cash in hand about a month ago but came across my mini truck (which I love and don't regret one bit). Supposedly someone is buying my old Saab (which I'll miss greatly) on Monday, that car will literally become my bike. Funny and unreal what folks pay for their bikes (myself included, looks like) :o

Andre

[Kermit]

I forgot about Ellsworth (http://www.ellsworthbikes.com/handcrafted-bikes/#trailBikes), I used to have a Truth and a Moment.

Did the same house weld Ventana and Ellsworth? It has been some years since I was in the loop.

[dieselcruiserhead]

Ellsworth are cool but very expensive. Funny because here and in Moab they are very common, when again I think that both Turner (not in house, but very high tech and very high quality and hand welded in the USA, nearly identical quality to Ventana but a hair cheaper) and Ventana (nearly identical but they have better suspension ratios IMO, and they are inhouse, slightly more "boutique") are both just as good as Ellsworth and possibly even more superior. And the Ellsworth are a good $500 more as well. I have a friend who I trust and who is unbiased... He rides a truth and loves it, and is also an old family friend of Tony Ellsworth, and worked for him. Supposedly (though most of his bikes are great) Ellsworth and Tony Ellsworth have really sketchy business practices ( I have heard this from a lot of people), money owed all over, meanwhile the owner is blowing huge $$ on a new house for himself etc etc. So, though they are nice, I personally choose not to support them even if I wanted one..

But like the Moots I still personally would choose the Ventana (or a Turner). Another final issue for me is the only way I could do a Moots was if one was custom ordered. Something about Ti bikes, literally no one makes on in my size for about 6'4 or taller (I am 6'5, but do not consider myself "massive". I also ride a normal XL bike, not a XXL)... It is about 70% internet research and about 30% real world. But I base my initial values of "what I like" and "what fits me" on my real bikes. But the geometry of the Turners and the Ventanas both fit me so much better. The Ventana I have on order (my Saab sold -- I am literally ordering the bike tomorrow!! :) ) fits me perfectly...

Here is the chart of geometry for this bike. I am ordering the 22" (which is like a 21" with slightly longer wheelbase and slightly longer seat tube. Literally perfect for me). It is a 650b bike so the "new tire size" between 26 and 29er. It is kind of "ghey" (or however you want to phrase it), but I wanted 5" travel XC borderline AM bike. I am so tall that bikes for me can be massive (sized, length, wheelbase etc), so I could have bought a 29er that fits me at 4" or 5," but it would have been humungo, 47" wheelbase, plus the 29er wheels on top of that. Or I could scrunch such as I have and fit on the XL that fits folks 6'1 - 6'4 ideally. But my XL Stumpjumper, that I already had trouble getting around tight corners on tight switch backs, is about 44" wheelbase, and is a hard tail. Full suspension generally seems to add about 1" to the wheelbase of most bikes, so this 650b bike ("The Bastardo") with the bigger tires, perfect top tubs for me, perfect seat tube for me, and perfect angles, is just about right. Plus only about 45" wheel base, and everything else on the bike literally fits my body perfectly... :) So I cannot wait :) ...

[Kermit]

Holy Crap Andre....I am glad I am short...no offense.

A good friend of mine has Ventana Tandem, used to be a dealer too. They build nice bikes.

Ellsworth are too pricey, even at employee discount. At the time I was the only guy riding one in Tucson (always the need to be different)...that soon changed.

Of all the bikes I had, I was happiest witht the Santa Cruz 4X, that bike just worked for my style. Think Dual Slalom, Mountain Cross...

The price of bicycles, kinda lead the way for me to start riding moto. 6 grand can get you a downhill bike, or a dirt bike making 50 horse power.

[Flounder]

I wouldn't fear the fatigue rate of Ti at all. That is one of the reasons ti is used in aircraft. I was a builder apprentice for a dude in Boulder for a few years. He was very fond of Ti for a while and certainly familiar with building biiiiiig frames. He built my Ti time trial bike which I retired after 10 years. You might know that dude as Mr. Zinn. Another friend is Klement Capliar of Morati Ti from the Czech Republic. Morati is a division of Morati Aerospace. They actually chose Ti for the unique qualities of Ti including the flexible properties and low fatigue life. My Morati Cyclocross bike rides like buttah. I finally sold my Sandvic DBR ti mountain bike after 10 years of abuse. Ti is a great material for mountain bikes. The road bike advantage is in large part trumped by carbon, but Ti makes a nice bike, especially a hard tail. Speaking from a bike metalergy standpoint, Ti actually has potential for a greater life than aluminum. (yes, that is a huge generalization) Ti is reputed to be prone to notch failure, but in 25 years in the biz, I've never seen a notch failure but couldn't begin to count the aluminum failures. In fact, my one and only broken frame was a steel Masi road bike. I just don't fear fatigue or potential material failures as they're so rare.

I dig Moots. Wish I still had mine.

My only experience with Ventana was with a hardtail I bought in '96....and sold a month later. Hated it. It had all the finesse of a jackhammer. But that was loooong ago. I have a Ventana fork on one of my 29ers and as forks go, it is nice enough. It's no Sibex.

To further drift off course and into the opinion pool, I'm no fan of Ellsworth for a variety of reasons, none of which I'll mention.

Disclaimer: I'm partial to hard tails and my stable of full sussy bikes continues to rot in my basement.

[dieselcruiserhead]

Nice :) Yes good to know, I just had a lot of trouble finding anything XL in Ti that wasn't custom.. I'm 6'5 but 6'1 to 6'4 doesn't seem that odd (but those guys could fit on a 20" bike anyway)... I heard lots of rumors about it being "too soft" I guess.. You are probably right, I too would love one in a hard tail.. The guy on the Moots I was riding with, his weighed in at 19 lbs. But his frame was more than my whole bike, and mine was only 23lbs... So he paid $2-$3K for 3-4 lbs :) ... The Moots with the Ventana rear stays look nice...

I have been riding with quite a few guys on their Ventanas, guys I really trust who have a lot of years of experience, seem to be real dialed from first hand experience what is or isn't that good or bad... The Moots are nice but I am pushing more into the AM riding that I enjoy more, stuff that really shakes a lot of people bones including mine previously trying to keep up on the hardtail)... To date I've hardly been a full sus guy too, all I own are hard tails currently, 4 of them, the newest is that full rigid.. :) That said again psyched for the full sus, it will be my one bling, my one splurge for some time, I figure the technology isn't going to change to much other than little stupid stuff (headset diameter ::rolleyes: ) but should be pretty solid. So with luck ride this to the grave, assuming I got all my math right and it really will fit me well... Anywhoo, rambling away... :)

Also you guys might know Kavic... He's down in Arizona doing land cruiser stuff. Here is a link to some of the stuff he did when he was still doing frames:
http://www.tsunamirock.com/images/server_host/proto/proto.htm This is his site now...
http://www.kavikoffroad.com/


And here is killer older thread from this site, "bike porn" :)
http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8873&highlight=porn

[dieselcruiserhead]

Well I'm all "bike shop'd out" but truth is Flounder has way more credential than I, I've only been at it a couple years now at most and truthfully am just learning... So I defer to Flounder and the Ti discussion certainly makes sense. There are indeed some killer steel alloys, some of which I've learned quite a bit about in the last couple months in particular... :) I am way into fab stuff mostly from Land Cruisers. Some day if I have time and it really becomes a central part of my life I would love to get into frame building maybe later in life... For now, I am just psyched to just ride, which is the best way to do it of course :)

[Kermit]

Properly designed and not abused, it will should take a decade or more to break an aluminum bike.


What's your deffinition of abuse? :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5dWWLKMjec&feature=related

[DaveInDenver]

What's your deffinition of abuse? :D
No frame warranty for you! :-)

[Kermit]

No frame warranty for you! :-)

I was just riding along...

[Flounder]

I was just riding along...
When I was working in a shop years ago, some Mountain Dew drinking rad-ster brought in his bike in mangled pieces. Before I could say a word he said, "this was no JRA......"

Finally...a little honesty!!!!!

[gearguywb]

Ref the Moots 29er...I have been riding a MootoX YBB for about a year and really love it! If you are going the '9er route then make sure you spend the coin on good wheels. On a 29 it makes a heck of a difference.

I also have a Turner Sultan (29er), great ride but not the all-arounder that the Moots is.

[dieselcruiserhead]

x2 on good 29er wheels as well, they flex a lot more... This guy does really good work www.lacemine29.com I hear but is expensive... I am building a set with Hope hubs currently, sort of like the poor man's Chris King hubs :)

[gearguywb]

If you are going to drop the coin on good wheels, I have had great luck with I9's. Built in Asheville, lots of choices with regard to rims, etc. I have a couple sets of 29er wheels from them, with Stan's Arch and a set of Bontrager Duster, both running tubeless. Great wheels, lateraly stiff and pretty light.

[Flounder]

While we're on the subject of wheels, everyone always seems quick to point out the importance of rims but skips over hubs. Stiff wheels start from the hub outward, which is why even track wheels from 40 years ago had large flanges. Today, the flange insn't such a big deal but the axle and hub body have a lot to do with hub stiffness. I tend to favor Chris King hubs, but also use Phil Wood and White Industry hubs. All seem to have increased stiffness.

[dieselcruiserhead]

If you are going to drop the coin on good wheels, I have had great luck with I9's. Built in Asheville, lots of choices with regard to rims, etc. I have a couple sets of 29er wheels from them, with Stan's Arch and a set of Bontrager Duster, both running tubeless. Great wheels, lateraly stiff and pretty light.

Out of curiousity what route did you go to get your dusters tubeless? I have a set but hear Bontrager doesn't have their kit out... A Stan's kit? Interesting that you would string up a set of these with the I-9s. The I-9's are so bling and the Duster is well designed but seems like an odd match quality wise I suppose (though I really have nothing to complain about personally)....

On my 29er Rigid, I ordered up another White Brothers fork for it yesterday...

[dieselcruiserhead]

Here is the '08 Bastardo that I am ordering from Ventana... I can't wait until it gets here :)

http://www.competitivecyclist.com/mountain-bikes/frame/2008-Ventana-el-bastardo-4920.html

[gearguywb]

Out of curiousity what route did you go to get your dusters tubeless? I have a set but hear Bontrager doesn't have their kit out... A Stan's kit? Interesting that you would string up a set of these with the I-9s. The I-9's are so bling and the Duster is well designed but seems like an odd match quality wise I suppose (though I really have nothing to complain about personally)....

On my 29er Rigid, I ordered up another White Brothers fork for it yesterday...

I just used the wide yellow tape from stans and some sealant...works fine.

[Pokey]

I-9s- no good for bigger (200lb+ guys).

Same with Tune Hubs

If you are over 200lbs--stick with CK or DT.