Quigley vs. SMB 4WD conversions

[ntsqd]

Disclaimer: I don't yet know if this is just mental masturbation or if my GF is truly interested in an SMB, but we're starting down the investigation of purchase path.

Poked around a bit, didn't really find this addressed. In looking at SMB's there is the option of their 4WD conversion using leaf springs, or going with a Quigley conversion using coil springs. The SMB uses an Atlas and the Quigley uses an BorgWarner OE truck transfer case. I think a chain drive case is fine for the application though the lower low range of the Atlas is probably a bonus. The Quigley option is roughly $5000 less.
What does that $5k get the buyer?

I know which I would want from a ride quality point of view, but I am interested to hear what folks with experience with one or both options have to say.

[alaskantinbender]

Hello from a Quigley owner.
Im a little bored after work today so I will take the time to give you m2cw.

If I had it to do all over again I would go with:

http://www.salemkroger.com/

And get exactly what I wanted for a conversion.
Unfortunately I didn't do my home work.
Over all my 2003 isnt too bad just a few areas that need addressing. I have never driven a SMB so cant really compare the two. I do like the coil springs better than leafs at least compared to older FORD leaf spring trucks. My unimog does great with coils on all 4 corners.

1. The stock coils are way too week and short giving only 1 inch of compression travel to the bump stops.
If you look in this forum you can see a thread on how we fixed that issue. With the new springs its like a new truck.

2. The FORD fuel tank is cut down to an absurd 25 gal or so, I fill up at empty and get in about 23 gal.
They say the reason is to give room for the transfer case.
A ford pick up tank will fit in the rear after the spare tire is relocated and the tire mounting plate removed. A 36 Gal tank only runs about $230.00 + a few hundred for plumbing and wiring. Much cheaper than the $1600.00 transfer flow unit. With both tanks installed my fuel capacity will be a usable 58 gal. I will need to small loan to fill it up however.....

3. I think the atlas gear case is a better unit as I have warn out one BW T case at 20,000 miles. They fixed it under warranty and the next time I will replace it with the Atlas unit.

4. The front suspension link arms in the conversion dont really seem heavy enough for the punishment we are giving it. I expect we will be doing some kind of additional beef up or replacement as we get more miles on it.

5. This one is a FORD issue. The E350 brakes at least in 2003 plain are not up to it. I have had both rear calipers freeze up and one replaced. And it goes thru rear pads like candy on the actuator side of the rotor.
The issue seems to be the guide pins are not letting the caliper center properly. Also the front rotors are warped from taking up the slack from the rear brakes.

The dealer in Wasilla has been less than stellar so I have gone to Anchorage for warranty work till it expired.

There is my story and Im sticking to it.
I don't mean to sound overly negative about the truck and most of my frustration has been with the FORD dealer not Quigley.

In my case we have decided to fix the issues and get maximum value out of the truck. It suits our needs well and the kids would never let me do away with MOBY.....

Do your homework and enjoy the trip.

Regards,

Jim

[ujoint]

I think the Quigley is an excellent value for what you get. They do a really good job these days. They've had many changes over the years, and I was impressed when I looked under the last one I worked on. I'm assuming their conversion is still around 10K, which is a really good price. Building in "bulk" has it's advantages.

It really boils down to what you want to use the van for. If basic 4wd is all you need for the occasional trail or snow, go for the Quigley. The t-case is fine, so is the front axle. If you want to explore more & want more options, the Sportsmobile should be your choice, it's much more capable off road. I don't think the vans need an Atlas t-case, most drivers won't even come close to utilizing the capability of the unit. It's also a good selling point for the off road "ruggedness". These are my personal thought, I don't work there, and I may be wrong.

Also, the leaf spring suspension is much simpler, easier to work on, and can easily be modified later on. (lift)

Hope this helps!!

[deserteagle56]

What do you guys think of the Quadvan (quadvan.com) build quality...using all new Ford F350 parts for the conversion?

I am kind of sniffing around to replace my 32 year old 4x4 van and not sure which would work best for me. Does Sportmobile do just the 4x4 conversion, without all the interior stuff? Do they do only new vans or older ones also?

[ujoint]

I haven't seen too many Quadvan's, so I really can't say. It's good to use as many Ford parts as possible, especially parts that can wear. I did come across one van that I think was from there that had a 2 piece front driveshaft, which I think is kind of strange. I'm sure Sportsmobile will just do a conversion, but you'd have to give them a call to verify. And only a new van I'm sure....

[Scott Brady]

It really does come down to use, but the SMB conversion is so impressive on the trail AND highway, the only real downside IMO is initial cost and a minor fuel economy impact.

[ntsqd]

Thank you everyone!

I like the QuadVan idea of using the Super Duty axle & linkage. That combined with some quality dampers should ride about as well as could be hoped for given the driver's seat location.
I'm not dissing the leaves option, but I have two live axle - leaf sprung trucks and I know that at their best, most developed state they're still giving away some ride quality to a coiler.
Perhaps the leaves are good enough. Unlike those trucks I doubt that I'd ever be chasing a desert racer with an SMB. I wish I could've gotten to the Mid-State Calif. Meet-N-Greet early enough to ride in an SMB. Then again, it was that MnG that opened my girlfriend's eyes to the possibility of an SMB.

[ujoint]

The Quigleys have a SD axle as well, just a different linkage style. I think that if coils were that much better, Sportsmobile's clients would have no issue laying down the extra $$$ for it. It would be interesting to know if their customers request it... Maybe Scott can do a little investigation for us..... ;)

[Scott Brady]

SMB conversion significantly outsells the Quigly conversion.

Why?

1. Atlas
2. Dynatrac ProRock 60
3. OME
4. Swaybar Disconnects

Easy choice IMO

[deserteagle56]

Another question:
In taking out a couple used Quigleys for test drives I discovered that when in low range in the transfer case, the transmission refuses to shift up through the gears if the shift lever is placed in "D". The transmission stays in low gear no matter what or how fast you rev it up. So I called Quigley and talked to one of their techs - and the same with Quadvan. They told me this problem started with electronically controlled transmissions and speed sensors versus speedometer gears. The answer was the same in both cases - it's because of where the speed sensor is located; the vans transmission computer gets "confused" because of the gear reduction of the transfer case and so it won't allow the transmission to shift. I think that sucks! There are places I go where low range (and using all the transmission gears) is really handy and makes it a lot easier on the drivetrain. Has anyone discovered a workaround for this problem? Do you all have to put up with it?

[alaskantinbender]

Another question:
In taking out a couple used Quigleys for test drives I discovered that when in low range in the transfer case, the transmission refuses to shift up through the gears if the shift lever is placed in "D". The transmission stays in low gear no matter what or how fast you rev it up. So I called Quigley and talked to one of their techs - and the same with Quadvan. They told me this problem started with electronically controlled transmissions and speed sensors versus speedometer gears. The answer was the same in both cases - it's because of where the speed sensor is located; the vans transmission computer gets "confused" because of the gear reduction of the transfer case and so it won't allow the transmission to shift. I think that sucks! There are places I go where low range (and using all the transmission gears) is really handy and makes it a lot easier on the drivetrain. Has anyone discovered a workaround for this problem? Do you all have to put up with it?

My truck is a 2003 Quigley conversion and I havent had any problems with the auto tranny shifting in Low range. Dont know if its a fluke or not, we dont use low range very often.
The speedometer doesent work properly while in low range for the same reason listed above.

Regards,

Jim

[ujoint]

I only use low range for brief periods..... I hold a specific gear to do what I need to, then go back to high if I need to be in 4wd going through the gears.

[jammyauto]

My experiance withtheSMB 4x4 so far is deffinatly a mixed bag. First off the positives are as Scott stated above Atlas II, 46 gallon fueltank,Dynatrack 60 axel, sway bar disconnects.

Here are my gripes; First off the ride is very harsh. Many sporstmobile owners have had thier vans resprung by Deaver Spring and and there is a suspension shop here in Santa Barbara that has replaced the OME's on at least 4 SMB's in this area. I plan on doing both these upgrades on my van as time/budget permits. The OME's overheat on washboard and they are simply too small and improperly valved for the weight of the vehicle. The stock front springs are basically straight across and have no arc to them at all. On my van when I hit a bump or dip in the road the first thing that hits is the top of the diff housing on the frame. There is only 2 inches of up travel possible on the front end. Also the stcok brakes are just barely adequate. There is lots of room for improvement.

Since I have owned my SMB the following problems have come up relating to the 4x4 conversion 1. The rear shocks overheated and melted the bushings around Coco's corner in Baja. I was heading north. Because of the washboard road and the diesel engine I did not hear the rattling noise from the shocks in time. One of them broke off and punched a hole through the floor of the van. Very bouncy ride home with no rear shocks. 4k miles at the time. 2. Broken high pressure power steering hose that was rubbing on the track bar just after completing Mengle Pass in Death Valley. Drove home to Santa Barbara with no power steering. Only one hose at the time in CA. Now I carry a spare. The hose is only 27.00! Mileage was 8k.

To be fair to SMB I have not driven any other 4x4 conversions (quigley, pathfinder, etc) to compare my van to. I also feel that converting a van to 4x4 and achieving the same ride as a factory 4x4 vehicle is very challenging, especially in terms of achieving up travel in the front suspension.

Perhaps SMB has addressed some of these issues in the 2008 model which was recently driven by Scott.

If I was to do it all over again I would try to do the 4x4 conversion myself or perhaps be much more picky about all the options and try to get some real time in a few conversion before making a decision.

[ntsqd]

Of Scott's list the Atlas is the only thing I would want. Not sure that I need it, just want it.

I gather that the ProRock60 advantage is mostly the lack of Unit Bearings? I'm not sold that those are pure evil in this use. I am sold that they are pure evil for a rock crawler.

I see the advantage of swaybar QD's, but I don't think I'd ever use them.

I would definitely use the fuel tank. I have a 40 in the Sub now and have a 50 for it. Just money & inclination to make the mods to fit it (requires going to an external EFI pump).

On the low range thing, where is the speed sensor located? If it's in the t/c and there's nothing to tell the ECU that low range is engaged then it is probably looking for a threshold pulse count that it will never see. The EEC-IV is a danged smart device with a lot of alteration capability built in. I'll venture that what ever superseded it is as well. It may be that the ECU could be wired to look at the trans speed sensor for shift points only. dunno.....

Jammy, Orme Bros. (http://www.ormebrothers.com/) in SFV carries every known adapter made by Aeroquip and a couple others. I'd guess that Herman can also get you those parts. I've partly converted the Sub's PS system to use industrial JIC plumbing with field serviceable hose ends. That way all I will eventually need to carry are the bits needed to make up any one hose and one spare of each unique adapter type. I did this with the SS brake hoses on my last Sub.

I'm thinking that I should beg a ride in each conversion type before I buy anything. As this topic seems to have died down bit betwixt my GF & I, I'm not sure when that might be. I'm thinking my best route is to let her bring it up again.

[Photog]

One of the van conversion companies uses the Quigley Torsion Bar IFS 4X4 (http://www.quigley4x4.com/pages/index.cfm?fuseAction=page&upID=118)from a Chevy 2500. It raises the van about 2 inches, from its normal street profile. Not a Rubicon ready van; but it would certainly be a welcome conversion for a general purpose mini-motorhome. Might be able to intall a 2" lift, as if the suspension were still in a truck.

Does anyone know of any drawbacks with this Chevy IFS 4X4 conversion, or problems with the lift options available?

[ntsqd]

If this is from the latest model IFS, they have very wimpy tie rods. The center link end attachment of the tie rod is very similar to that used on a rack & pinion, and not a whole hell of a lot bigger! The tie rods themselves are bar stock of less than 1" OD. Don't recall exactly, but I'd guesstimate them to be about 11/16" OD

On my friend Rod's D-Max we built a new center link and used the common to rock crawlers GM TRE's to build new tie rods. I was never happy with the way the steering felt, but I was the only one. Rod liked the way it changed the steering, so I was OK with that.
This mod moved inner pivot location and required the building of a second idler arm in the center, with it's pivots on the underside to offset the eccentric loading of the TRE's. Without that second idler the centerlink could rotate fore/aft on it's ball pivots.

[ujoint]

You're not the only one that hates GM IFS steering....... I've been curious about the late model 4wd GM vans for a while, but haven't seen many on the road. I haven't seen anyone modify them, and I can't say I know anyone that even has one.

The Dynatrac axles use thicker tubes, and the center section is stronger than any factory casting. Plus, you get the piece of mind that you have a brand new axle. I've built used axles, and bought quite a few Dynatrac 60's, and the cost winds up being pretty close (if you replace everything in the used axle). I'd guess, within 1000-1200 bucks. Also, if there needs to be any special mods made to the used axle (like a pinion rotation, perches moved) that difference disappears, the Dynatrac axle is well worth it.

[Photog]

Info from Quigley, on the GM IFS van-conversion steering-linkage:

"There is good news. GM has remedied this (steering linkage) issue in the 2008 model year G-Vans. GM (now) uses a "King Pin" style pivot, only a side to side range of motion which gives you both "stiffer" steering and a faster steering response. If you are looking at 2007 and earlier model year there is still good news. There is now a Moog replacement kit for both the Idler Arm and Steering Linkage Ends, it does not use the "Ball Joint" style. Or you could have the Idler Arm and Steering Linkage Ends updated to the 2008 setup."

[ujoint]

Is that steering news about the factory GM "AWD" van, or a Quigley converted van?

[Photog]

Is that steering news about the factory GM "AWD" van, or a Quigley converted van?

It is in reference to the Quigley 4X4 IFS converted vans. They use the steering linkage that comes with the van, and through 2007, it has used ball joint connections.

It looks like there are Moog replacement parts, or the new 2008 "king pin" parts will be a direct replacement for the ball joints.

We are looking to get a van in autumn of 2009; so we should not have that ball joint linkage problem.

[ujoint]

I wonder what the cost of that IFS conversion is.......

[ntsqd]

I'm thinking that you can only get it on GM platforms. They aren't going to offer it for a Ford or a Dodge since those won't have the suspension mounting points in the right places.

[Photog]

I'm thinking that you can only get it on GM platforms. They aren't going to offer it for a Ford or a Dodge since those won't have the suspension mounting points in the right places.

I think you are correct. It is all GM parts, from the GM 2500 4X4 truck, plugged into the GM van. But they might have options that are not showing on their website.

[deserteagle56]

Winkel GMC in Reno, Nevada had 3 of the Quigley IFS conversions on the lot when I was out shopping a couple months ago. If it weren't for the Quigley emblem a person would be hard pressed to tell they were 4x4 units. But I checked them out and they do have the running gear from a GM 2500, transfer case and all, underneath them. They sit very low to the ground and would be useless off-highway unless someone could fit a lift kit under them. And that aluminum front differential housing has to be a very weak link also.

On the other hand, Quigley also makes these GM vans with a Ford solid-axle front end under them. With a Duramax under the hood I could see myself going for that! Unfortunately, no one seems to have any of those in stock!

[1976K5Chalet]

Run away very far from the gm IFS. It sux. I installed the cognito upper arms and double shocks and a host of other gidgets to make her (2006 2500 HD) survive the oilfield work enviroment and it still has issues.

The dmax and the allison have been flawless! So...i'd saw pitch the ifs for a pro rock 60....add the atlas as the gm unit has issues as well...and you would have a very sturdy dependable rig!

DW

[ntsqd]

A friend of mine had a 4wd Dmax/Allison truck. His widow essentially gave it away.
At first they went with a high end lift kit (the name of which is currently escaping me). Eventually the demands of driving Baja the way he wanted to do it required moving to 3" coil-overs with hydro-bumps and dumping the T-Bars. And we had to build a new center-link as those puny tie rod ends were not up to the task of controlling the 37" Projects. Once those two things were done and sorted out the truck was a marvel to drive and didn't have any problems.