Hilift PullPal Adapter

[adventureduo]

Anyone seen this before? Is it something that hilift makes? (i dont see anything on their site)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Hi-Lift-Land-Anchor-Off-Road-Recovery-Pullpal_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6763QQihZ001QQi temZ110254533269QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Interesting. Don't know if i'd trust it with the weight of our rig.

[grouch]

That's pretty slick. Wouldn't work for me because my HiLift is my winch!

[big sky trapper]

Hey! Thats one of the designs we worked up on here...

http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5207&highlight=pull+pal

[TheRoadie]

How sad he had to resort to keyword spamming to list the product. Basically if it isn't a Pullpal brand winch anchor he can't use the word "pullpal" in his description. Just a heads up for any other Ebay sellers. It "uses" a Hilift backbone, but it isn't a Hilift product.

[VikingVince]

I'd say it's a poor design. When using a real PullPal, and depending on the terrain (loose sand for example), the spade often gets pulled way deep into the soil or sand. When that happens with this design, the working mechanisms of your hi-lift jack are going to be filled/jammed with sand or dirt.

[cruiseroutfit]

How sad he had to resort to keyword spamming to list the product. Basically if it isn't a Pullpal brand winch anchor he can't use the word "pullpal" in his description. Just a heads up for any other Ebay sellers. It "uses" a Hilift backbone, but it isn't a Hilift product.

Agreed, I think the seller could have done a much better job not only detailing his own product, but the fact that Hi-Lift and Pull-Pal are trademarked products.


I'd say it's a poor design. When using a real PullPal, and depending on the terrain (loose sand for example), the spade often gets pulled way deep into the soil or sand. When that happens with this design, the working mechanisms of your hi-lift jack are going to be filled/jammed with sand or dirt.

Agreed.. I don't know that the bottom of the hi-lift will every get that deep, I suppose its possible in really deep sand or mud, however I've never pulled my Pull-Pal in that deep.

I guess my biggest argument is "why", the standard Pull-Pal or knockoff 1-piece design is not too big to be stored. Its an answer looking for a problem that didn't really exist IMO. If the assembled Pull-Pall was too big, take the two bolts out and store it in pieces, easy enough. To have to compromise a second recovery device to create the first??

[Lynn]

To have to compromise a second recovery device to create the first??

I haven't used a pullpall, but agree with your reasoning here.

Also, the HiLift beam is designed for compressive forces in a fairly controlled direction. It seems that this adapter would give the opportunity to twist and bend the beam in directions that it wasn't designed to go, with considerable force applied.

OTOH, for the DIY-type that wants to build a better mousetrap, or save money, using an old cultivator spade like this guy used seems like a good idea. Most farmers have several old ones laying around, or you could pick up a new one at a farm supply store pretty cheap.

[VikingVince]

Agreed.. I don't know that the bottom of the hi-lift will every get that deep, I suppose its possible in really deep sand or mud, however I've never pulled my Pull-Pal in that deep.



FWIW, I've only used my PullPal in loose sand and it gets completely buried...maybe a couple inches of the front sticking up...so that was my first reaction to this design and doing that to a hi-lift.

[cruiseroutfit]

FWIW, I've only used my PullPal in loose sand and it gets completely buried...maybe a couple inches of the front sticking up...so that was my first reaction to this design and doing that to a hi-lift.

Wow, in that case it would make absolutely no sense to be using your hi-lift. The locking mechanism sticks enough when its clean, let along full of sand :D

[ntsqd]

Hey! Thats one of the designs we worked up on here...

http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5207&highlight=pull+pal
I remember that thread. Looks like someone was paying attention....... and is trying to capitalize on it.



Also, the HiLift beam is designed for compressive forces in a fairly controlled direction. It seems that this adapter would give the opportunity to twist and bend the beam in directions that it wasn't designed to go, with considerable force applied.
Steel is best used in tension, not compression. To get good compressive strength the shape of the column needs careful consideration. All that matters in tension is how much cross sectional area there is. If a column will stand the load in a compressive direction it will more than stand the load in a tensile direction.



Having owned, and given away, two pull-pals I see great advantage in using something already existing in/on the vehicle for a similar device's main beam. Has the potential to save a huge amount of weight, which is why I gave away those pull-pals. Ever pick one up? They represent a LOT of beer/Popsicles/chocolate covered frozen bananas/whatever that I'd rather carry.
I would not, as shown on the auction page, use the hi-lift beam with the traveler still in place and expose it to even more grit. Popping the traveler off isn't that big a deal. Neither is replacing it.

[cruiseroutfit]

...Steel is best used in tension, not compression. To get good compressive strength the shape of the column needs careful consideration. All that matters in tension is how much cross sectional area there is. If a column will stand the load in a compressive direction it will more than stand the load in a tensile direction.

Besides the structural characteristics of steel in general, the Hi-Lift is/was designed to be used as a winch second to its use as a jack. While I can't say I've seen a rating for their beam as a winch device, its fair to say it will likely hold up just fine as used.


...Has the potential to save a huge amount of weight, which is why I gave away those pull-pals. Ever pick one up? They represent a LOT of beer/Popsicles/chocolate covered frozen bananas/whatever that I'd rather carry.

Sure, the entire Pull-Pal represents a lot of weight, but I'd guess that the beam itself isn't going to save you more than 10lbs. Consider my complete Pull-Pall weights 34lbs, 36lbs with the case... add to that I don't carry a Hi-Lift (26lbs) rather a exhaust jack (15 lbs)... I'm at a net savings. Not that I'm honestly ever worried about 10 lbs in a 7500lb setup :D

[Lynn]

Steel is best used in tension, not compression. To get good compressive strength the shape of the column needs careful consideration. All that matters in tension is how much cross sectional area there is. If a column will stand the load in a compressive direction it will more than stand the load in a tensile direction.

Thanks for the info. You are apparently much more of a mechanical engineer than I am (I barely survived statics and dynamics 8 years ago, and have, fortunately, never had occasion to revisit those texts). I have to ask, though: isn't the potential load in the pulling scenario much greater than the potential load in the jacking scenario? Did you take that into account?

My instinct still tells me that it would be pretty easy to twist or bend the beam if the spade happened to dig in at an angle (other than perpendicular to the beam), like if it hit a rock, a hard spot in the ground, or if the vehicle happened to move sideways during the pull. I know from experience (read: misuse of a hilift jack) that it's not hard to bend a beam.

Should you damage it enough, then, like cruiseroutfit mentioned, you no longer have an anchor OR a jack.

Of course, if you travel with someone in a similarly-equipped vehicle, you have redundancy....


Having owned, and given away, two pull-pals I see great advantage in using something already existing in/on the vehicle for a similar device's main beam. Has the potential to save a huge amount of weight

I certainly agree with the weight savings aspect. If you combine this device with one of those shovel/ax kits that use the hilift handle, then you could compound the savings.

Heck, maybe the spade on the pull-pall imitator could be designed to act as a shovel and hoe, as well. (I apologize if that was mentioned in the other thread, my work connection is rather slow right now, and it was taking too long to open, so I gave up.)

[Lynn]

Besides the structural characteristics of steel in general, the Hi-Lift is/was designed to be used as a winch second to its use as a jack. While I can't say I've seen a rating for their beam as a winch device, its fair to say it will likely hold up just fine as used.

True, but its use as a winch is designed around the force that can be applied by a human on the handle, not by a 10,000# electric wench, right?

Also, hand winching would not side-load the beam the way that this pull-pall imitator potentially could.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, just need to be convinced on the engineering.

[cruiseroutfit]

True, but its use as a winch is designed around the force that can be applied by a human on the handle, not by a 10,000# electric wench, right?

Well, as used by a single pull non-snatch blocked pull, 10k would be the extreme my particular unit would see. Assuming you were using the hi-lift as a winch under a normal scenario, it could see 10k however I doubt one would safely have the ability to even use the hi-lift on loads that hight. I've used one as a winch to pull a stranded Cruiser onto a flat bed trailer (up some 30* ramps). It was a severe amount of work just to do that, and I figure the load in that situation was well under 1k lbs.


Also, hand winching would not side-load the beam the way that this pull-pall imitator potentially could.

That is very much something to be concerned about, I've seen them begin to "bow" under heavy lifts... not unheard of to have them bend outright:

http://128.83.80.200/TACO/bm4.jpg

[teotwaki]

I'd say it's a poor design. When using a real PullPal, and depending on the terrain (loose sand for example), the spade often gets pulled way deep into the soil or sand. When that happens with this design, the working mechanisms of your hi-lift jack are going to be filled/jammed with sand or dirt.

remove the working part off of the beam first?
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q18/bigskytrapper/P4210021.jpg

The whole idea was to try to keep the impact of the total weight of the recovery gear as low as possible.

[ntsqd]

I have to ask, though: isn't the potential load in the pulling scenario much greater than the potential load in the jacking scenario? Did you take that into account?

I did consider that the bearing load and the tear-out stress would be a potential issue due to the way (where & how) that you would have to attach a winch cable to the beam. The Hi-Lift 8k limit is imposed by Hi-Lift through the shear pin. That limit applies whether lifting or winching since the shear pin doesn't care. If the winch in question is 8k or less, and is not doubled back to the vehicle, then you're within the design limits with the attachment. If it is more than 8k or doubled, then you're treading out there where the ice could be thin depending on what the Factor of Safety for the beam's holes are and how hard you pull on it.


My instinct still tells me that it would be pretty easy to twist or bend the beam if the spade happened to dig in at an angle (other than perpendicular to the beam), like if it hit a rock, a hard spot in the ground, or if the vehicle happened to move sideways during the pull. I know from experience (read: misuse of a hilift jack) that it's not hard to bend a beam.
Keep in mind that excepting Kurt's picture that most bent Hi-Lift beams happen in compression. Pretty hard to pull something bent. Can be done, but takes an exceptional special case scenario to do it. In a tensile loading the only directly applied bending force is from the triangulation brace that attaches to the beam's midspan and the tube holding the spade. This loading is in the best possible direction for an I beam shape.
So then the only way to apply a bending force would be if a rock or something else underground skews the spade enough to try to twist the whole device. There is not a lot of leverage there, and it would take other rocks bearing on the device in a certain way for it to turn against the direction of the cable's tension. Any bend then would be operator error or abuse.


Should you damage it enough, then, like cruiseroutfit mentioned, you no longer have an anchor OR a jack.
That is a potential downside. It takes a lot to bend one permanently. I've seen a 60 inch version with over a foot of bow in it, and it came right back once the load was removed.



Sure, the entire Pull-Pal represents a lot of weight, but I'd guess that the beam itself isn't going to save you more than 10lbs. Consider my complete Pull-Pall weights 34lbs, 36lbs with the case... add to that I don't carry a Hi-Lift (26lbs) rather a exhaust jack (15 lbs)... I'm at a net savings. Not that I'm honestly ever worried about 10 lbs in a 7500lb setup :D
As someone who has quit carrying a Hi-lift as well I'd also be gaining weight. I'd have to carry a second Hi-Lift too, no winch.
10 lbs would mean that you're now at 7490, a step in the right direction. ;)

[cruiseroutfit]

...As someone who has quit carrying a Hi-lift as well I'd also be gaining weight. I'd have to carry a second Hi-Lift too, no winch.
10 lbs would mean that you're now at 7490, a step in the right direction. ;)

I need to revise that a bit, I started weighing things on the shipping scale :p

Pull-Pal & case actual weight - 29.2 lbs
Exhaust Jack actual - 15.4 lbs
Hi-Lift actual - 26.6 lbs

We really need someone to measure the weight of the "hi-lift" style Pull-Pal, I have a hunch that it weighs more than the complete Pull-Pal unit given its minimum thickness of 3/16" (Pull-Pal is 1/8" in designed areas).

Oh yeah, the weight of the Pull-Pal bar that is essentially replaced by the hi-lift beam: 6.82 lbs :D

(yes I'm a nerd and I pulled one apart)

Pic 1: The removed bar of the Pull-Pal
Pic 2: The scale reading
Pic 3: Pull-Pal bar versus the Hi-Lift

[ntsqd]

Pull-Pal weight: After hefting the first one that I gave away I knew that I'd be giving away the second when it came my way too. To be fair, both were still in their boxes. No idea what they actually weigh or if there was anything in the box of significant mass that wouldn't need to go with in the vehicle.
Nerds of the World, Unite! :)

What about space considerations? Could be a deal breaker, but it doesn't sem like it would be all that much difference.

[cruiseroutfit]

...What about space considerations? Could be a deal breaker, but it doesn't sem like it would be all that much difference.

Space is a definite issue. Short of hard mounting to a roll-cage or bed, its another thing taking up precious space. With the Pull-Pal patented desing, it folds pretty flat (~40"x10" - 2" thick). However some of the knock-off designs I've seen do not offer the portability and stowage, could easily become a hindrance.

[madizell]

The blade on the Pull Pal is removable, so that the main frame assembly can be stored in a space not unlike the space needed for a Hi-Lift, and the blade can go just about anywhere as it lies fairly close to flat (there is a stamped chevron in the blade so it is not perfectly flat.) 35 pounds sounds about right for one of the bigger units.

I would not use a Hi-Lift beam as the main frame of a Pull-Pal knock off. Off angle pulls are not impossible in the field, and side loads on the lift beam would permanently damage the beam, which is not cheap to start with, nor are they light in weight. I have bent, broken, and repaired various parts of my Pull-Pal more than once due to difficult recoveries, although I have never damaged the shovel part, which is about as indestructible as a piece of metal can be. I have bent the main beam and have torn out the supports on a 14,000 pound PP, so it can be done even with a 5,300 pound vehicle and an 8,000 pound winch. The twist on the beam comes less from the shovel striking something under ground as from the vehicle changing relation to the anchor point during recovery. Expect some degree of off-angle pull in all but the most simple of recoveries.

While on the topic, burying a Pull-Pal in soft sand is not a problem, and in fact is frequently necessary in order to provide enough anchor force to recover a vehicle. If you expect to use an anchor in sand, attach a tree-saver or length of rope to the tail of the anchor so that when you are ready to recover the anchor, you have something to pull against in the opposite direction from which the anchor was buried. Back up to the buried anchor from behind the line of pull that buried it, attach the strap of rope to a shackle point on the bumper and drive away slowly. The anchor will come right out as a rule. Beats breaking your back trying to lift it out any other way.

[cruiseroutfit]

.... If you expect to use an anchor in sand, attach a tree-saver or length of rope to the tail of the anchor so that when you are ready to recover the anchor, you have something to pull against in the opposite direction from which the anchor was buried...

Great idea! One could even get a short piece of cable made with a clean attachment point at the Pull-Pal and a crimped loop at the other. I'm going to have to look into that.

[madizell]

If you get the chance, watch some of the Outback Challenge video, available through Overland Journal's video sales, and you will see lots of guys recovering anchors from sand. What works becomes obvious as you watch, and they are great videos.