Taco Brakes

[flyingwil]

My truck is beginning to show signs of either warped front rotors or glazing on the factory brake parts. The truck shudders when braking from any speed higher than 30-35 MPH, and I am seeing a loss in braking performance to the point I am beginning to worry about it.

I recalled reading Jonathan's Tacoma Brakes thread (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=324) and don't think we came to good solution or recommendations from the thread. However, one outcome was cross-drilled rotors offer no significant improvement in performance while increasing the chances of rotor cracking in a shorter time than with solid or slotted rotors.

So with that said, what are your recomendations for new brake components?

[DaveInDenver]

Cross drilling and slotting is something that I know very little about, so I'll be interested in hearing more. I know that people who build race cars never use cross drilled rotors and use slotted rotors if the application requires it.

Cross drilling generally does not add any benefit (other than bling-bling, if that's important) and has a very serious downside that they will likely crack under hard use. Slotting was originally designed to help evacuate the gas that can build up between the pad and rotor, but it's pretty much generally acknowledged that newer pad materials produce much less outgas and so this isn't a particularly important use. Slots do tend to the clean the pad surfaces and can cut some of the glaze. On street and track cars, the cleaning effect isn't such a big deal, but I suppose in our case that could be of some benefit in mud and stuff. Whether or not they reduce glazing is probably negligable, IMO.

The bottom line is that you want friction and doing anything to reduce surface area will mean less friction. So whatever you do to the rotor and/or pad faces that results in less surface interaction needs to have some very real tangible benefit. The general consensus is that the best option is high quality vented rotors that are sized as large as will fit in the wheel (i.e., good quality stock style rotors on your Tacoma).

I personally use only Toyota drums and shoes (they offer reman shoes for my truck, which is what I use), they have been in my experience far and away better than anything else. In the front, last servicing I put on NAPA Severe Duty pads and they seemed to have worked out well enough, although after Moab last time I think I may be getting some glazing. It's been about 30K or so. I once used non-OEM rotors and they warped, so I use only Toyota rotors. But it's possible that since I did not use the top quality aftermarket that they were just junk (it's been many years ago and on a Honda Civic). I'd have no problem trying Wagner or some other name brand (and non-Chinese made) rotor. Oh, and all Toyota hardware for me with the exception of Downey extended brake lines and Mobil synthetic brake fluid.

[atavuss]

My truck is beginning to show signs of either warped front rotors or glazing on the factory brake parts. The truck shudders when braking from any speed higher than 30-35 MPH, and I am seeing a loss in braking performance to the point I am beginning to worry about it.

I recalled reading Jonathan's Tacoma Brakes thread and don't think we came to good solution or recommendations from the thread. However, one outcome was cross-drilled rotors offer no significant improvement in performance while increasing the chances of rotor cracking in a shorter time than with solid or slotted rotors.

So with that said, what are your recomendations for new brake components?

FWIW my personal experience cross drilled and slotted rotors do last longer and resist cracking/overheating better than stock factory vented rotors in severe service police use (I am a government fleet technican). we use car quest brand which is probably reboxed raybestos. we also use ceramic pads with the slotted/drilled rotors. last time I checked the crossdrilled/slotted rotors were not available for tacos from car quest, I will check on monday to see if they are available yet. I did put a set of crossdrilled/slotted rotors on my wife's Civic (she is hard on brakes) and they are holding up well.
another thing to keep in mind with brake systems is to replace your brake fluid every few years or so as it will absorb moisture and degrade your braking ability. had a 04 Crown Victoria police unit with 28k miles yesterday that I had to flush the brake fluid because it showed 1.5 to 3.0% moisture contamination. we have a tester that you stick in the master cylinder (basically it is just a volt meter instead of reading out the voltage it has three LED lights, red for replace fluid, yellow for marginal, and green for good)
http://www.chain-auto-tools.com/electrical_auto_tools/MET400L.htm

http://www.aa1car.com/library/bfluid.htm

[Nullifier]

My problem has not been witht he rotors at all. In fact I could not be happier with the front discs. It is the rear drums I hate. Besides all the constant disassembly to clean out the mud, I now have unstopabble brake squeek. I have tried everthing from switching pads (3 times) using steel wool on the drums, a light scuff on the pads with sand paper, adjusting cylinders and e brake. IT JUST WON"T STOP AND IT DRIVES ME CRAZY!!! It is so loud that it's embarrasing. Hoepfully after the Idaho I will be able to get the front range full floater kit and have disc brakes all the way around. Not to mention the obvious ease of mind in having a full floating rear axle since I have a locker now.

[flyingwil]

I am looking into Frozen Rotors (http://www.frozenrotors.com/) by Diversifield Cryogenics for my replacement. Their rotors are deep cryogenic processed that permanently refines the grain structure of metals at the atomic level. Carbon particles precipitate as carbides into a lattice structure and fill in the microscopic voids. This creates metallurgically improved and stabilized rotors that have a denser, smoother surface. As a result, you reduce heat and wear on brake rotors and pads. I think this might help prevent glazing. Although the slotted one are about 3 time higher priced, the durability and longevity may be worth it to use these, IMO.

Any experience with them?

[DaveInDenver]

Is there any actual proof that these cyrogenically treated cast iron rotor are any more wear resistant because of the cryo step in treating? I know that cryogenic treatment helps in conversion of retained austenite to martensite, but just increasing hardness does not automatically mean it's more wear resistant (although it will make them more brittle). Do you know if the rotors are further tempered after cryogenic treatment? It's certainly possible that it does make a better quality rotor, since a high austentite content can cause cracking problems in gears, for example. I'd also guess they last longer, but I also wonder if they brake as well.

What I could understand is subjecting a cast part to the stress of cyrogenic during heat treament would cause castings with flaws to break before they'd ever get into service, so as a quality control check it might be good. Like the example of cop cars. Take a batch of rotors, subject them to a pre screening where a marginal casting breaks in heat treat and automatically you are assured that the rest will be generally better quality. So from that aspect, it seems anecdotal to say cryo means better. You've potentially pre screened the sample to remove rotors with flaws that might normally have gotten through based on dimensions only. I really doubt that manufacturers do any more than spot check the quality of the castings on rotors, so as long as the finished rotor meets thickness and size criteria, it'll go out even if the casting and/or heat treating produced a potentially sub-par rotor.

[flyingwil]

Do you know if the rotors are further tempered after cryogenic treatment?

The Frozen Rotors are heat treated after the cryogenic treatment.


...Using a proprietary computer-controlled process, the metal is cooled slowly to deep cryogenic temperatures (-300°F), and slowly returned to room temperature, then heat-tempered as the final step. Computer technology allows us to regulate temperatures to 1 degree, accurately manipulating our Cryo treatment in accordance with the mass of your parts.

[DaveInDenver]

The Frozen Rotors are heat treated after the cryogenic treatment.

Good deal. That will help with the brittleness and probably make them wear even a little better.

Seems plausible to me that they might be a better mousetrap. Let us know (if you end up using them) how they work out, I'd certainly be interested in checking them out.

[flyingwil]

I am just starting to research replacement rotors... so now I just input. Any other recomendations?

[kevin]

I had just one piont to throw in here. It seems that most of you are running lifts of some sort. The Load Sensing Proportioning Valve on the rear axle is often over looked during the lift installs. If this is not relocated properly it can put undue stress on the front brakes, especially when the vehicle is loaded heavily in the rear, as brake pressure is not increased to the rear axle.

[k6uk]

I know that Nissan was having a huge problem with warping rotors on their Armadas. Criogenically treated rotors were their solution. So they must help.

-Mike

[calamaridog]

The way it was explained to me was that slotted rotors were good for heavy vehicles and drilled and slotted were ok for lighter vehicles.

I went with SP slotted rotors up front and Hawk hi-performance brake pads. The braking improved on the Land Cruiser and no complaints yet after 10,000 mi.

Or you could stick with stock rotors and upgrade the brake pad. I used the Performance Friction pads on my Tacoma and they worked better than stock.

[flyingwil]

The way it was explained to me was that slotted rotors were good for heavy vehicles and drilled and slotted were ok for lighter vehicles.

I went with SP slotted rotors up front and Hawk hi-performance brake pads. The braking improved on the Land Cruiser and no complaints yet after 10,000 mi.

Or you could stick with stock rotors and upgrade the brake pad. I used the Performance Friction pads on my Tacoma and they worked better than stock.


I have heard alot of good things on the Hawk pads... How do you like them? Do they wear nicely? Dust issues?

[DaveInDenver]

The way it was explained to me was that slotted rotors were good for heavy vehicles and drilled and slotted were ok for lighter vehicles.

I went with SP slotted rotors up front and Hawk hi-performance brake pads. The braking improved on the Land Cruiser and no complaints yet after 10,000 mi.

Or you could stick with stock rotors and upgrade the brake pad. I used the Performance Friction pads on my Tacoma and they worked better than stock.

A fella that I used to work with raced SCCA Class D SP in a Subaru Impreza. He ran stock Subie rotors with a couple of different sets of EBC ceramic pads (one was daily driving and the other race day only) and it sounded like that was pretty typical. What I don't know is if they all used OEM rotors, but I sort of doubt it. His car was sorta light, something like ~3500 lbs with the cage. Still it was a fast little sucker, he claimed his engine made 219 HP, whether or not that was true, it was a rocket. So I dunno, my understanding is that it's probably a coin toss between people doing autocross regarding slotted rotors but mostly none use cross drilled rotors. Thing is they really tax their brakes, so they probably know what works and what does not. Shrug.

[Mlachica]

For about 16k miles I've been running brembo rotors zinc plated and slotted by www.irotors.com (http://www.irotors.com) in conjunction with Porterfield Racing R4-S High performance and autocross carbon kevlar pads, www.porterfield-brakes.com (http://www.porterfield-brakes.com)

What's different about IRotors is they make their slots longer than the pad, allowing the gases to escape. I've seen slotted rotors from other companies and they're really small, small enough to be covered in its entirety by the pad - not allowing the hot gases to escape. I opted to not get drilled rotors because I've heard stories of rocks/debris from mud and water crossings getting stuck in the holes and damaging the pad. IRotors claims that the slotted/drilled rotors are not prone to cracking but I still opted for just slotted rotors.

This setup is definitely a step up from stock. The only time I experienced brake fade was when I intentionally made it happen by riding the brakes during an 8,000 ft decent from big bear in my loaded taco (probably near 5k). And during the same decent I was able to lay off the brakes and get rid of the fade. With conscious use I haven't had to deal with any fading.

The cryogenic treatment sounds really practical - I'm going to read more on it

[flyingwil]

Ok, so I need to start acting on this fast.... Slotted or not?

[asteffes]

Get the slotted rotors.

[Scott Brady]

For about 16k miles I've been running brembo rotors zinc plated and slotted by www.irotors.com (http://www.irotors.com) in conjunction with Porterfield Racing R4-S High performance and autocross carbon kevlar pads, www.porterfield-brakes.com (http://www.porterfield-brakes.com)

I need this setup! I have faded the brakes on my Taco dozens of times. Once really bad while racing a Celica from Taos to Cimarron :yikes:

Brakes have been on the radar for some time, I just need to make it a priority.

[97kurt]

Have any of you guys considered putting the 199mm tundra calipers and tundra rotors on your tacoma's? I'm getting ready to put them on my 4runner this weekend with any luck.

[Scott Brady]

I was not aware of the swap. Do you have any links to this being done?

I would love to check it out.

[Mlachica]

Have any of you guys considered putting the 199mm tundra calipers and tundra rotors on your tacoma's? I'm getting ready to put them on my 4runner this weekend with any luck.

I'd like to hear more too!


I need this setup! I have faded the brakes on my Taco dozens of times. Once really bad while racing a Celica from Taos to Cimarron :yikes:

Brakes have been on the radar for some time, I just need to make it a priority.

A 6000lb taco racing a Celica? :bowdown: you're the man!

The rotors are under $200 and the pads are close to $100


Get the slotted rotors.

:iagree:

[97kurt]

Sorry, for the delay.

In short, I am planning on doing the tundra setup this weekend. I got calipers (that need rebuilding), tundra rotors, tundra pads and some steel lines I got from wheelersoffroad.com

Tundras/Sequoias had two different types of calipers.
199mm pre-tsb
231mm post-tsb

tsb = toyota service bulletin

Both use the same size rotors but they use different pads. Pre tsb ones had slightly smaller pads. Toyota issued the TSB I believe on the 00 and 01 models and 02 on up had the newer calipers. There is absolutly nothing wrong with the pre-tsb. (I got a used set of those $25 each)

The 199mm calipers are larger than our 4runner/Tacoma calipers (bigger pistons) and allow for a much larger rotor. I picked up my centric rotors yesterday and they are alot heavier than what I remember the 4unners to be. Probably 15 to 20lbs each.

Modifications needed to install the calipers are easy, you need to clip a small piece of metal off the dust shield. I've been told tin-snips will do it.

The 231mm calipers will also bolt on and require the dust shield to be trimmed. But... The people I have read that are doing this are having clearance issues with the stock 16 rims.

If I can get my act together and get them on this weekend I will post pics. To keep everyone happy here is a link for more info.

http://www.yotatech.com/showthread.php?t=50309&highlight=tundra+calipers

[Ursidae69]

Did your install happen last weekend? How'd it go?

[97kurt]

So far so good. The install was easy and it is an improvement. Im not gonna say a huge improvement yet, but definitaly an improvemant over what I had.

I'm guessiing if I went with the 231mm it would be more noticeable, but for now I am happy.

I will keep everyone posted.

Here is the thread with pics.

http://www.yotatech.com/showthread.php?t=91911

[flyingwil]

Well it is Official... I have Power Slot Slotted Rotors and Hawk Pads on it's way to me. Should be in the Taco on the 22nd:exclaim: It will nice to be able to stop again with out major fade and pulsating!

[atavuss]

any more front brake updates to report anyone? Scott, what did you do for your front brakes? my Taco has a severe pulsation/chatter when braking on downhills (mountain driving, freeway offramps, etc.). I need to change out the rotors and pads. Pep boys has EBC brand slotted and drilled "sport" brake rotors but the 2 different stores I called says they don't show a listing for 4 WD Tacos. I don't really want to do the changeover to Tundra brake calipers/rotors/pads.

[Jonathan Hanson]

Regarding the question about brake squeal: The Manafre front disks on my FJ40 had a bad squeal problem for a long time. Applying grease to the back of the calipers helped for a week or so, then the squeal would return.

About six months ago I bought a container of CRC synthetic brake caliper grease and tried that. I haven't had a single squeak out of them since.

[flyingwil]

Well it is Official... I have Power Slot Slotted Rotors and Hawk Pads on it's way to me. Should be in the Taco on the 22nd:exclaim: It will nice to be able to stop again with out major fade and pulsating!

To follow up...The new brake components, Power Slot Slotted Rotors and Hawk Pads, work great and I would recomend them.

[Scott Brady]

This is my plan:

Crossed drilled and sloted from discs

and the Porterfield Kevlar shoes and pads

You can see everything here: (http://www.wheelersoffroad.com/tacomabrakes.htm)

[oly884]

I'm hoping at some point to upgrade to the tundra calipers (199's) and rotors. With the camper and every thing else, I figure it's cheap insurance.

[Dave]

To follow up...The new brake components, Power Slot Slotted Rotors and Hawk Pads, work great and I would recomend them.

Wil, how are the Power Slot rotors and Hawk pads holding up? I'm looking to replace my brakes in the next week or so.

Thanks,

Dave

[Ursidae69]

Wil, how are the Power Slot rotors and Hawk pads holding up? I'm looking to replace my brakes in the next week or so.

Thanks,

Dave

:lurk: :lurk: :lurk:

[flyingwil]

Wil, how are the Power Slot rotors and Hawk pads holding up? I'm looking to replace my brakes in the next week or so.

Thanks,

Dave


I love them... They are holding up well as I add more weight they still seem to take a good bite. I have not experienced any fade, warping or issues of any kind. I highly recomend this set up. Now if they only had a easy conversion for the rear :Mechanic:

[erin]

Wil, can you still get the ABS to kick in, or is it still a little over powered by the weight?

[Dave]

I love them... They are holding up well as I add more weight they still seem to take a good bite. I have not experienced any fade, warping or issues of any kind. I highly recomend this set up. Now if they only had a easy conversion for the rear :Mechanic:

Thanks for the feedback. I'm doing the Power Slot - Hawk combo on Thursday.

[flyingwil]

Wil, can you still get the ABS to kick in, or is it still a little over powered by the weight?

What ABS? I do not have ABS...

I think this is the same Combo Peter Parks is using too?