Looking for the right Canoe

[JeepinBear]

So, what is the right canoe? I have no clue.

But, I can share some information on how i will use it:


I'm ~240lbs and plan on using the canoe with my wife and family.
Primarily lakes and rivers, MIGHT take it to the coast sometime and be in some coastal waters.
No real whitewater, but could be thin water; mostly used for touring.
Most likely will do some canoe "camping" which means we will be hauling gear.
I'm not really kown for packing "light and fast".
I really like the Kevlar or graphite models.
Willing to pay for quality boat.So far, I like the Wenonah Champlain or Itasca models.
http://www.wenonah.com/products/template/product_display.php?NID=35&SID=278c6e17fbb5e90408c31572a840fcdc


Anyone have any ideas? I did check out this thread as well, but thought I would see if there was information that was more "fresh".
http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=764

[RobinP]

We've written quite a lot about buying canoes - try

http://overlandresource.com/category/over-water

Hope this helps,

[paulj]

Years ago I had a Wenonah kevlar canoe, a Jensen 18

http://www.wenonahracing.com/marathon/Models/18_Jensen.html

It was a nice boat, light, fast, easy paddling even for one person. Pretty too in that golden kevlar color. But much better on flat water than coastal or shallow water (i.e. with rocks).

It's hard to say just from the pictures why the Champlain 18 would be better in waves. Have you had a chance to paddle one of these boats? $2000+ is a lot to spend on boat without a test drive.

The lighter weight is worth the cost if you are going to be loading it on the car by yourself, or carrying it much of a distance. But for durability, especially in shallow water (rivers at low flow), I'd lean more toward one of their poly boats like the Northfork.

p.s. the dimensions give some idea of why the Champlain might be better in rougher water - it is wider (3"), and deeper, especially in the bow (5"). The Itasca has the tumblehome in the rear that you expect to see on racing boats, but has flare in the front to handle waves. That's an indication that this company is willing to mix and match features to fit a desired performance specification, even it yields a boat that looks a bit unusual.

[toyrunner95]

honestly i would buy one that floats.

[grahamfitter]

honestly i would buy one that floats.

... and used, and cheap, from your local newspaper or craigslist.

Canoes and kayaks are like four wheel drive expedition vehicles: the internet always suggests you get something way more expensive than you really need. :)

Don't skimp on the PFD though.

Cheers,
Graham

[paulj]

What's the nearest Wenonah dealer? Boise? Do they carry, or even recommend one of these boats? What lakes are you thinking of paddling? I wouldn't recommend one of these 18'+ boats for a river, not even the gentler parts of the Salmon.

As a first boat, buying used is a good idea. Like knifes, you are likely to go through several before finding one that fits your needs. A canoe isn't a one-fits-every-situation item. If buying new, I don't think you should go above $1000 for starter.

How do you intend to carry the boat? On the Jeep, or the RV? On the Jeep cross bar spacing may be limited, a point against a long boat. On the RV, I'd worry about dropping the canoe while loading/unloading.

[762X39]

I don't recommend a kevlar canoe for your purposes. Probably one fabricated from Royalex will be better. Kevlar is light but easily damaged, Royalex is nearly indestructable. I held off on having a canoe built for me for 25 years while I tried everything out there.I would suggest a Mad River Canoe in a 16' length but really, you have got to try a bunch of them out before deciding.Have a bit of fun field testing different canoes befroe you pull the trigger on a purchase.

[JeepinBear]

What's the nearest Wenonah dealer? Boise? Do they carry, or even recommend one of these boats?

I've emailed the 3 closest dealers (Bozeman, SLC, and Boise...in that order) to ask them some questions and see if we can "test drive".

After reading everyone's replies on this forum, we are leaning towards Royalex now.

Thanks for all the great advice. Keep it coming!!

[paulj]

Since you are a big guy, and want to take family (how many kids?) and gear, you probably should aim for a 17' boat, something like the Mad River Horizon 17. They describe it as a 'Royalex performance hull'. What I think that means is that they tried to made the bow and stern as sharp as Royalex will allow. It also has less rocker (bottom curvature) than their other boats, though it is more than is typical in the Wenonah canoes.

Narrow ends and a low rocker makes a boat that tracks well (paddles straight) but is harder to turn. For a contrast look at some of Mad River's whitewater boats. On a river you want a boat that turns easily so you can dodge rocks. On a lake you usually want something that travels straight so you don't have to put a lot of effort into steering. It is also easier to paddle when the wind is blowing.

In Idaho you probably see a lot of river dories or drift boats. They have a flat bottom (side to side) but extreme rocker.

[paulj]

Here are few thoughts on construction.

Fiberglass inbeds glass fibers in a plastic like polyester or epoxy. The cheapest and heaviest construction uses chopped glass strands. A more expensive form, requiring more hand work, uses woven fiber glass fabric. Kevlar uses the same idea, but involves a more expensive, but stronger, kevlar fabric. Carbon fiber is similar. Better, lighter, stronger construction uses more skilled labor.

To combine stiffness with light weight, companies like Wenonah, puts a layer of foam between layers of kevlar and epoxy. On their lightest racing constructions you can see the outline of that foam as a diamond pattern on the bottom of the boat. You might also see foam 'ribs' extending up the sides.

Royalex sandwiches a layer of foam between ABS plastic skins. I believe this material comes from the factory as a thin sandwich, when expands under heat when molded into the canoe shape. This produces a very tough and relatively lightweight object. But it can't be formed into as sharp edge as fiberglass and kevlar can. A Royalex boat comes full formed out of the mold - excess plastic just needs to be trimmed off, and wood, vinyl and metal trim screwed on.

[kerry]

I own thirteen canoes including an 18' Jensen, 17' Old Town Tripper and 16' Blue Hole Starburst, all of which fall generally into the category you describe, but my favorite boat for the conditions you describe is an 18.5' Jensen design, the Whitewater III built by Mohawk canoes in fiberglass in the late 70's. Wenonah built very similar designs in the Whitwater II High Side and the Whitewater X which I believed was renamed the Odyssey. None of these are built anymore but they are available on the used market. It can carry tons of gear and is deep enough to handle waves in coastal waters and up to at least class II rivers. It was designed as a downriver racing boat.
I bought mine 20 yrs ago for $50 and despite the fact that it is very inexpensive fiberglass layup it is still going fine and one of my most favorite boats. The fact that I am still paddling it, especially since it's early life was as a serious downriver racing boat is a testimony to the fact that Royalex is overblown as whitwater material. The boat does have some patches but these were put on it long before I bought the boat and they are still holding up well. It does not turn well at all so it is not appropriate for technical waters but it is very fast.

I second the opinion that you should buy used and cheap since your tastes in canoes will change as your skills improve. Just stay away from Coleman's despite the fact that the most famous canoeist the US has ever produced, Jon Lugbill, once was their spokesperson.

[Nullifier]

Personally Bell canoes are my favorite. I have been in the paddlesports industry for 17 years now. I have worked in manufacturing, as a rep, I owned a retail store for 8 years and currently own a canoe rental shop. I have owned just about every major brand of canoe on the market and now I own bell canoes. The reason for this is becasue the designer David Yost has an amazing insight to shape. His boats are really well balanced as far as how they handle a variety of water and wind conditions. His designs do exceptionaly well in wind and waves making them a great candidate for coastal trips. I paddle these canoes all over Floridas coastal areas. Including a 100 mile trip on the wilderness waterway. We took out north woods fully loaded on the outside route which exposed us to 2' waves and 2 days there were severe white caps. Never once did we feel uneasy about it. I would recommend something out of the touring series most likely the North Woods 18'6" or the North Shore 20'6". I have owned a Northwoods before and regret selling it. I will most likely get another one. The northshore is a bigger family of 4 plus camping gear version of the north woods.

[kerry]

Personally Bell canoes are my favorite. I have been in the paddlesports industry for 17 years now. I have worked in manufacturing, as a rep, I owned a retail store for 8 years and currently own a canoe rental shop. I have owned just about every major brand of canoe on the market and now I own bell canoes. The reason for this is becasue the designer David Yost has an amazing insight to shape. His boats are really well balanced as far as how they handle a variety of water and wind conditions. His designs do exceptionaly well in wind and waves making them a great candidate for coastal trips. I paddle these canoes all over Floridas coastal areas. Including a 100 mile trip on the wilderness waterway. We took out north woods fully loaded on the outside route which exposed us to 2' waves and 2 days there were severe white caps. Never once did we feel uneasy about it. I would recommend something out of the touring series most likely the North Woods 18'6" or the North Shore 20'6". I have owned a Northwoods before and regret selling it. I will most likely get another one. The northshore is a bigger family of 4 plus camping gear version of the north woods.

I have a Bell Yellowstone and like it for solo tripping although it's stability varies greatly with seat height. I haven't paddled any of their big boats. I have a Sawyer DY Special and it's a lightening fast solo boat but requires a bow thruster to turn.

[JeepinBear]

Wow guys...yet again I am amazed at the level of insight and expertise available in the ExPo community. Thanks and keep it coming. I was not very familiar with Bell Canoes, but I am more than interested now!!

[johnnyrover]

Long time listener...first time caller

Wenonah and Bell make awesome boats, and are both built within 20 minutes of my house, but I would recommend you look at the Old Towne Penobscot (in royalex) as your first canoe.

For the money...
It has good initial and secondary stability, handles loads well, and tracks well when solo...They are also very durable in Royalex, and well suited as an all around canoe.

From here, you can begin to learn what form and function best suit your paddling needs.

[Nullifier]

I have a Bell Yellowstone and like it for solo tripping although it's stability varies greatly with seat height. I haven't paddled any of their big boats. I have a Sawyer DY Special and it's a lightening fast solo boat but requires a bow thruster to turn.

The DY special was a great boat in its day. The current Yost offering in that class is the Bell Magic which is 4 generations down the road from the DY special. All the boats in that fast solo touring class are harder to turn. However the magics updated differential rocker, improved elliptical center section and less aggressive asymetry make for a better handling canoe then the DY special. The older Sawyer label canoes like yours are direct lineage of the modern bell canoes. You can see it across the board. This is also true of the Curtis canoes that Dave designed.

I assume the Yellowstone you have is the Yellowstone solo? If it is that is really the second generation of the wildfire which is my all time favorite solo canoe. The basic difference between those 2 models is that the rocker in the Wildfire is symetrical and the Yellowstone solo uses the current Differential rocker design. This basically enhanced the tracking characteristics of the canoe making it an easier boat for novice paddlers as well as giving the canoe slightly better cruising performance.

I have paddled my carbon Kevlar Wildfire in every imaginable condition from flat water freestyle competition all the way up to class 4 white water on river like the Ocoee. The Yellowstone is just a slightly newer version.

[Nullifier]

Long time listener...first time caller

Wenonah and Bell make awesome boats, and are both built within 20 minutes of my house, but I would recommend you look at the Old Towne Penobscot (in royalex) as your first canoe.

For the money...
It has good initial and secondary stability, handles loads well, and tracks well when solo...They are also very durable in Royalex, and well suited as an all around canoe.

From here, you can begin to learn what form and function best suit your paddling needs.

If you are going to look at an Old Town then I agree the Penobscott series is the best. However keep in mind that in comparison to a Bell or Wenonah the Royalex laminate from Old Town is not as good. The laminate is thinner which wil make the boat slightly lighter however these canoes can suffer from "oil canning" as they age. Defenitly a great starter canoe. Keep in mind thought that Royalex in comparison to Kevlar is heavy and that Old Town spec wieghts are very very optomistic. I will tell you that the weight of reality vs catalog spec on O.T. canoe is as high as 15% more then catalog spec weight. THere have always been a big variable witht his brand and I am not sure why.

Just make sure you get to try one out on the water before you purchase because they all sound good in the catalog. Although a good canoe shop can lead you the right size of boat they cannot tell you which one is going to be the most stable. Stability has alot of influences. Like you natural sense of balance, comfort with water, athletic ability etc. Everyone has different comfort level and canoe do feel different on the water even with very close specs.

For me what I value in stability is something the industry does not really speak of. The industry speaks of initial stability which is the canoes basic resistance to leaning. They also talk talk about the secondary stability which is how far the boat can lean before a capsize. I look at what I call transitional stability. This is the measure of how the canoe moves from sitting level to leaning on its side. Most flat bottom canoes with straight sides have great initial stability however when they get to a certain point they roll to the side wildly and this most often causes the flip. People over react to the sudden transition. Canoes with rounded or v bottoms and heavily flared sides tend to have great secondary but they can be a chore to relax in because the boat is constantly leaning left and right so you feel as if you are going to possibly fall over even though that design gets more stable the further it leans. Unfortunetly most manufacturers over due the secondary and it is beyond most peoples comfort zone. So the the object is to be somewhere in the middle. Something with mild flare and a mid arch to the center hull section is usually where you will find a boat with good transitional stability. It will feel stable enough on flat water as well as choppy conditions. A boat with great transitional stability will move from level to fully leaned at a rate that feels comfortable. The canoe will not make you think uh oh hear we go. You will say to yourself up le are leaning left and then you will compensate for that without violently going for the "high side". It should feel natural. This is wy demoing a cnaoe first is important.

I also highly recommend spending a few dollars on a class. Paddling is much like skiing. You can strap on a set of skis and go for it which usually leads to a less then successful experience, or you take a lesson and get ahead of the curve and enjoy it from the start. Mastering a few basic strokes are paramount to a good experience. You should learn how to handle the canoe while it is still this includes moving the canoe sideways and spinning it in circles. You should learn how to do a proper forward stroke and stop. Then you are ready to learn how to make the canoe go straight and finally turn while under way using bow control. There are about 8 strokes that will make your paddling experience go from a canoe trip to a great canoe trip.

[JeepinBear]

Anybody familiar with Souris RIver Canoes??

http://www.sourisriver.com/

[kerry]

I've paddled one of their lightweight kevlar tripping canoes. It could have been a Prospector model. It was very light, probably too light for a beginner paddler. I think they make boats in a variety of layups. I thought their workmanship was very good. A friend of mine owns a Quetico 16. It's a little small for tandem tripping but he paddles it solo on easy river trips.

[Nullifier]

Anybody familiar with Souris RIver Canoes??

http://www.sourisriver.com/

Souris river is kind of like the candian version of wenonah. They build a variety of hull laminates including some interesting s-glass laminates that are nearly transparent. My general feeling is that if you live in the U.S. then buy a U.S. made boat. Shipping across borders to handle a warranty issue is a serious P.I.T.A. I speak from experience on this. There is nothing there that is better then what you can get in a domestic boat.

[JeepinBear]

Thanks again for all the input everyone!

I found a canoe on craigslist over in Boise and after some negotiation I went and picked it up this past Sunday. It is a 18' Wenonah Champlain in Royalex. It was made circa 2004 and is in good-excellent shape.

The previous owner had installed the screw mounted lashing eyelets on the underside of the bow and stern gunwales and installed d-rings to the floor. All the seating and wood thwarts are in excellent shape with no wear visible.

...and it floats! :ylsmoke: It also fits on top of the LJ!

We picked it up for $600! Based on my research I assume this was a pretty good deal. We figured this was a good starter canoe, if we enjoy it we will look at upgrading to a Kevlar model and keep this Royalex for short river trips.

Michelle and I have some of the Wenonah Black Lite paddles on order and plan on upgrading our PFD's.

I stopped in Cabela's while I was in Boise and picked up waterproof bow & thwart bags.

Anyone have input on any additional accessories?

[kerry]

That's a good buy. It is somewhat similar to a boat I own, an 18 1/2' WW III built by Mohawk in the 70's, although mine is glass. Both are big load big water boats. I love mine. The eyelets in the bow and stern are probably designed to hold in air bags. I would get a set and install them.
I second the recommendation to take a basic canoeing class, a basic river canoeing class would also be good. In a boat like that you'll need to perfect your backferrying skills for Class II+ water.

Here's an image from a Basic River Canoeing class I was teaching last weekend on the South Fork of the South Platte River.

[JeepinBear]

The eyelets in the bow and stern are probably designed to hold in air bags. I would get a set and install them.
Exactly...that's what they had there.


I second the recommendation to take a basic canoeing class, a basic river canoeing class would also be good. In a boat like that you'll need to perfect your backferrying skills for Class II+ water.
We plan on taking a class in June in Jackson Hole.


Here's an image from a Basic River Canoeing class I was teaching last weekend on the South Fork of the South Platte River.
Wicked! Looks like a blast!:Wow1:

[kerry]

If you're going to be running rivers, or even big lakes, I'd put knee pads in it. 1" thick minicell foam is good. Even though it probably has bucket seats, kneeling in turbulent water provides much more stability in my view. If you plan on consistently running rivers in it, I'd also consider thigh straps. They help you lean the boat and transfer body movements to boat movements. If and when you kneel make sure your feet can easily be pulled out from under the seat. Some seats are so low that it is dangerous to kneel because your feet can get stuck under the seat.

Here's a link to a short video of my co-instructor demonstrating a solo front ferry:

http://s659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/dkedwards/?action=view&current=dec1.flv

and a couple of students learning to front ferry in an Old Town Appalachian:

http://s659.photobucket.com/albums/uu319/dkedwards/?action=view&current=dec4.flv&newest=1