The error of my ways / good mpg 4x4 Motorhome-in-a-phonebooth concept

[77blazerchalet]

Here's where I went wrong: my parents had RVs devoted exclusively to vacationing, after college the most I could afford was tent camping out of my hatchback, and when I finally got extra money a few years ago I bought the first small-ish 4x4 pure RV I could find that was really snazzy. Well, "old iron" Chalets sure are unique, but RVs are banned from parking at my apartment complex, I have to store it at my parents' RV lot across town and work on it there, it gets 9-10 mpg, and ya can't haul big things in the back of it like a TV, office chair, etc. It's camper, not good for much else.

Limited cash reserves and high gas prices cause me to conclude: I need to scale up my car camping ways (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=28691&d=1242495031), not scale down an RV idea. Ditch the tent, though, and find a 4 door 4x4 high/low range SUV, remove the back and passenger seats (temporarily), engineer a flat place to sleep, put in a tiny fridge, pack in the rest of the necessary boondocking camp items, and there you have it: something that goes much further up those Colorado Rockies dirt roads than my VW GTI, and is a place to sleep in overnight that bears and other scary varmints have a tougher time getting into. No need anymore to set up a tent in a downpour or put it away all soggy the next morning. After the vacation, the SUV could serve as a daily driver & "stuff" hauler for my upcoming freelance business.

Up to or even beyond 18 mpg would be very nice. Not overly annoying to drive between Phoenix and Colorado is a must. Considering my choices of moderate 4x4 roads, I'd think a slightly altered SUV would suit my purposes, if it can handle a receiver hitch carrier on the back to carry a 225lb offroad motorcycle. After a few days surfing through various Expo threads, a Land Rover Discovery 1 or 2, Nissan Xterra / Pathfinder, Isuzu Trooper, Jeep Liberty, Suzuki Vitara / XL7, and Toyota 4Runner more or less cover those requirements. I like the Suzukis for having such short hoods and better mileage, but I'd probably have to have to trailer or caster wheel (http://www.smarttrailers.com/Model_SL200E/general_purpose_trailer_files/MH%20200%20004.jpg) the motorcycle, while the others suffer to varying degrees in mileage. Discos look really neat, but do no better than 15-16 mpg? Isuzus are the only ones where a diesel is an option? But a diesel may not be cost effective anymore considering the cost difference with gas...

Then there's the economic opportunity costs - insurance may be lower for one over the other, a lower priced Disco with worse mpg could still offset a high priced better mpg Xterra, for example.

All of this contingent on my sale of the Chalet. I'll be keeping a good eye on the "Expedition Vehicles for Sale" forum, finding something here may be infinitely better than the local Phoenix Craigslist. Y'all feel free to steer me toward something and away from others, let me know if I am overlooking a good choice. No little truck campers, please. To me, "motorhome" means being able to move from the driver's seat to the rest of the vehicle with no impediment. Not considering a rooftop tent, either.

[chet]

you also have to look at future potential for mods. my XL7 although great has a very limited aftermarket. ie no rear locker, bumpers etc. I can sleep in it but the rear seats do9 not make a very flat floor.

I would go for a 4 cyl 4 runner. good mileage, great reliability and excellent aftermarket.

[77blazerchalet]

AWD Chevy Astro van, perhaps?..[/url] I pursued that a bit, see this thread (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10162&highlight=dodge+minivan) and also note my brother's (parents' former) Tiger Provan in post #5 there. Ruled out a 4x4 Tiger possibility for not being able to withstand rocky rough roads, but haven't necessarily ruled out an Astro 4x4 conversion with 2-speed transfer case, except they might cost more than I want to spend compared to ready-to-go SUVs.

[Bergger]

I'm a real fan of the 2nd Gen Xterra. It's great to sleep in with the fold flat rear seats, has good storage space, is awesome off road, can be had with a factory rear locker, the 6M gets 21 mpg hwy, very comfy to drive and the engine is a beast. I'm 6'2" and both my wife and I sleep comfortable in the back. Set up for a solo trip you could easily fit a fridge/storage area and have room for you to sleep. We got ours brand new, off road model with 6M for 24k. I bet you could get an even better deal now or check the used market.

[blue94yj]

I have a diesel liberty and for me any ways there is no way to sleep in the back. It's shorter then you would think back there even with the seats folded down. So it may have to come off the list.

[77blazerchalet]

you also have to look at future potential for mods. my XL7 although great has a very limited aftermarket....I thought so, at first I'd not even considered Suzukis until I saw "jeffryscott"s thread (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1491&highlight=vitara), which is probably as far as I would want to mod an SUV. There's a Grand Vitara in my apt parking lot, short li'l bugger it is...
I'm a real fan of the 2nd Gen Xterra...bet you could get an even better deal..check the used market.Super quick check of eBay shows several stock 2005 buy-it-nows for $11-$12 grand. "KevX02" has a 1st gen for sale here for $10 grand, with a nice bit of 'Expo-style' work done to it. That's about at the top end of my budget, I suppose, his is a good example of plug & play for me considering the price. An advantage of something for sale here over bone stock eBay / Craigslist / and most newspaper classifieds..

I have a diesel liberty and for me any ways there is no way to sleep in the back. It's shorter then you would think back there even with the seats folded down. So it may have to come off the list.The alternative I envision (may not be actually feasible in some) is the temporary removal of the front seat and rear seats and something clever engineered to allow sleeping oriented front to back - or keep the back seats if they fold flat to the back floor and have a 'continued' flat area forward where the front seat was. The idea came from some PT Cruiser's fold flat front seat which supposedly allows an 8 foot long flat front-to-back area... So my next goal is to gather all the fold flat rear seat / ease of seat removal info on these...

[haven]

I think that the problem with the XTerra and Jeep Liberty size vehicles is that there's not enough room inside to carry your gear and provide a place to sleep. You'll have to pile your gear on the ground outside the vehicle to make enough room. You might build a drawer system to help organize things, but getting into bed would be like climbing through a mail slot!

The compact/midsize Toyota and Nissan pickups with a cap over the bed will provide enough vertical space for gear storage down below, and a sleeping space above. A.R.E makes a commercial pickup cap with lots of options useful for camping. Configure it the way you want here:
http://www.4are.com/product/dcu/build/final.php

The alternative to sleeping inside is the rooftop tent, as seen on so many ExPo vehicles.

Chip Haven

[jcbrandon]

How 'bout a pickup truck with a shell on it? I've spent many dozens of comfortable nights in the back of my Dodge Dakota. I've got a Bed Rug back there and a Snugtop shell. I can sit up to get dressed and not bang my head. The big ol' load bay is easily configurable with modular bins. Everything stays out of the weather and is reasonably secure.

The truck is comfortable on the highway at 80 miles per hour and it has full-time four wheel drive, a two-speed transfer case, limited slip in the rear axle, and 31-inch tires.

And when I'm not camping it's a comfortable daily driver and errand-runner. Plus it will tow a medium-sized trailer.

[77blazerchalet]

Chip and J.C. - I owned a pickup that came with a shell, and I ditched the shell a week later because the lack of rear visibility drove me nuts. That's just me, others aren't fazed by such a thing. Not saying a 4 door SUV is any great improvement, but their rear side windows are larger. And, a pickup isn't "motorhomish" to me because I would have to exit the vehicle to get into the back - annoying in a big rainstorm. And if, heavens forbid, I should need to make a hasty retreat from my camp area, I'd have to get out of the back and race around to the driver's seat.

As for Liberty's, the 2002 brochure photo below shows I could sleep in there but only after the front seat is removed - the length of the yellow area is equal to the nearly 72 inch width of a Liberty, using this photo as a guide and guestimating a bit on where the outside panels would be. And, I happen to need 72 inches to stretch out comfortably. I could actually sleep this way in my VW, except the rear seat doesn't fold anywhere near flat, and I never looked at how the front seat comes out.... Other SUVs gain a bit in overall length, but I don't know how much that translates to rear cargo length in each. If the passenger seat in those others can be shoved fairly far forward, it may not have to come out.

Trust me, after 20 years, I have compact hatchback camping down to an organized science. (Ignore the paddles in the photo, by the way, and imagine both seats folded down...)
http://i539.photobucket.com/albums/ff358/19camper77/Librv.jpg

[Mobryan]

What about an older Suby wagon or AMC Eagle wagon??? Back in the late 80's, my old man built a SX/4 hatchback with 2 speed Quadratrac, small suspension lift and rear l/s. Anything you couldn't crawl over, just roll back, hammer down and BOUNCE :oops:

We've had a number of different Eagles before and since, all worked well and weren't too hard to work on, unless it was swapping out a 258 :littlefriend: :littlefriend:


Matt

[dhackney]

It looks like you have your requirements/criteria very well sorted out and established. Once you get some candidate vehicles try running them through this criteria model to see how they score on matching your needs/wants: http://www.hackneys.com/travel/docs/oevcriteria.xls



Then there's the economic opportunity costs - insurance may be lower for one over the other, a lower priced Disco with worse mpg could still offset a high priced better mpg Xterra, for example.

As you pointed out, insurance and other operational costs can make a big difference in the cost of the ownership experience. And, as you are discovering with the Chalet, the residual value of a vehicle and other associated costs of sale can dramatically affect the total cost of ownership.

Try running your candidate vehicles through this Total Cost of Ownership model to see how they compare: http://www.hackneys.com/travel/docs/oevtco-overview.pdf

Between the two models you will have quantifiable and empiricle data to help you make a decision. You will then need to add in the non-quantifiable and subjective factors (brand experience, styling, etc.). I can't help you there... :)

[Bergger]

I think that the problem with the XTerra and Jeep Liberty size vehicles is that there's not enough room inside to carry your gear and provide a place to sleep. You'll have to pile your gear on the ground outside the vehicle to make enough room. You might build a drawer system to help organize things, but getting into bed would be like climbing through a mail slot!



I'd have to disagree as far as the Xterra goes. At least with the 2nd generation. I have no experience with the first gen. For a single camper the Xterra is great imo. The thing I really like about it is how easy it is to convert the rear area to a fold flat sleeping platform. The rear seat bottoms remove with the pull of two handles. It can be put back just as easy. No unscrewing anything. Also the front passenger side seat has a fold flat "table" mode as well. It is also a bit wider than the old model. I lay down a 4" self inflating mattress and sleep very comfortably in it. I think you could still have room for a single drawer system with a fridge mounted on top it that. It also has a full time 12v outlet in the back which is nice. Having slept in both the Xterra and a compact pickup with a topper, to me the Xterra has a much roomier feel to it. The pickup was more coffin like and more difficult to get in and out of.

[granitex1]

I have spent many a nice night sleeping in the back of my first gen Xterra. For all out comfort an full size inflateable, will fill the entire back end for two people (without cargo), or you can sleep on one half by folding down the back seat. I use a cheap cot that fits in the half after I put the passanger seat forward a couple of inches. I would use a bedroll but as I get older I like my comfort. The cot I picked up for something like $9.00 at an army surpluss place, but they can be found just about anywhere.

[77blazerchalet]

What about an..AMC Eagle wagon???..
From "kcowyo" 's thread - AMC Eagles (http://s170537965.onlinehome.us/KcoWyo/gallery2/d/4245-1/WR+4x4+15.jpg) in post #8 here (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16146&highlight=amc). Jeep (AMC) drivetrain, right? Hmm, interesting idea.
...try running them through this criteria model to see how they score on matching your needs/wants: http://www.hackneys.com/travel/docs/oevcriteria.xls.. Impressive comparison thingy, I'll pop it into my PC (all my internet stuff is done on this iMac) and see how it works.

For me, and maybe others reading this who are wondering about how to achieve the ultimate expo camping nirvana, this is all about rounding up as much info as possible, stir and shake until the best solutions rise to the top. That's what's to fun about this web site, so many post their own personal experiences with the various vehicles. Incorrect assumptions on my part are set straight, other ideas I hadn't thought of pop up, and you guys freely give insightful tips that would have been otherwise hard to find via google searches. There's a ton of useful info in lotsa threads here!

[theMec]

And if, heavens forbid, I should need to make a hasty retreat from my camp area, I'd have to get out of the back and race around to the driver's seat.

You've probably thought of this but you're probably going to have stuff sitting outside anyway. Also if you bring your girlfriend, you'll definitely have stuff outside so you have to go outside to pack anyway. Or it's all in the front seats and front floors so you have to go outside to toss it in the back.

I know because I did the "sleep in the SUV thing" (landcruiser fj60) for 18 years. Mostly w/ my wife or other climbing partners.

Good luck. Figuring it all out is one of the fun parts.

[ntsqd]

Having done the sleeping in the back of a pick-up with a shell routine for ~10 years I find that the only thing that I do not like about this method is carrying the shell around. When by myself everything can stay in the bed if you pack carefully. Don't bring stuff just because there's room to do it.
With my GF along stuff has to go into the cab. I rarely leave something outside. If I have to do so, the first thing left out is the clam-shell lidded food box.

With the Suburban everything stays inside, even if I haven't packed carefully. I just move stuff to the south 40 and presto! Room for the both of us to sleep. It will be interesting adjusting to the FJ60, but I'm looking forwards to it. A FJ60 with some sort of engine swap would be viable, though probably on the low end of your mpg acceptability range.

I like the Eagles. I've always thought that their styling was a bit funky, and that appeals to me. The center diff in the transfercase of those doesn't take to hard core off roading, but I wouldn't expect it to be too taxed by Expo-type use. A 4.0 EFI swap would be high on my priority list.
I don't recall seeing an XJ Cherokee listed. With the rear seat out they can be long enough to sleep in. A friend of mine does it from time to time.

[elysium]

If you are looking for Nissan (pathfinder or xterra), Nissan is apparently running quite some deals out there to clear inventory. I imagine this Xterra was a 4x2, but still, $14300 out the door isn't bad for a new rig.



http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/hot-deals/845337/?start=2740

"I wasn't really looking for a new car, but continued to watch this thread.
Saturday I went to a Dayton, OH Nissan dealership and was able to get a 2008 Nissan Xterra X.
MSRP $22176. Bought it for $12900. OTD at $14300 (incl ttl). Great deal if you are looking for an SUV.
Thanks OP!!!"

[MuddyMudskipper]

Hmm, interesting idea.

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n100/mrburns71/seaglecar.jpg

The Nike 6.0 Six-Wheeled Eagle a.k.a. Seagle (http://jalopnik.com/cars/nike/holy-crap-its-the-seagle-184385.php).

[77blazerchalet]

..don't recall seeing an XJ Cherokee listed. With the rear seat out they can be long enough to sleep in... Oops. Quick look at the ConsumerGuideAutomotive (my across-the-board comparison web site for many of these), they can get as high as 25 mpg for the 2.5 liter engine, same general dimensions at the others I look at. I'd been thinking they were too brick shaped, thus had bad mileage.

[dhackney]

I think the Eagle is the sleeper (no pun intended) here. Minimal investment and reasonable parts availability. I always pulled for AMC. Couldn't resist the underdog angle.


Impressive comparison thingy, I'll pop it into my PC (all my internet stuff is done on this iMac) and see how it works.

Sorry, should have included this info. Both models are Microsoft Excel 2003 files. No macros, no plugins, nothing fancy. They will open and run on Mac XL, Open Office, etc.

[Mobryan]

From "kcowyo" 's thread - AMC Eagles (http://s170537965.onlinehome.us/KcoWyo/gallery2/d/4245-1/WR+4x4+15.jpg) in post #8 here (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16146&highlight=amc). Jeep (AMC) drivetrain, right? Hmm, interesting idea here!


Now for the down sides. The 4.0 swap idea is a good one, and a eagle with a blown motor shouldnt' cost more then $5-600. BUT, doing a 6 cylinder swap on a Eagle WILL drive you to drink. The front end parts, though not hard to find if you know where to look, can get expensive. The other costly part would be the transfer case, as ntsqd said, they don't take well to being hammered offroad. Depending on your skill level and fit & finish requirements, I think the easiest solution to all this would be to find a trashed XJ, jerk the 4.0,5speed and T case, and put it in the Eagle with some welding, hammering, and scraps of steel.

25mpg in a XJ is a joke, not happening. I've been around most varieties of Cherokee, and the best reliable milage I can remember is about 17-18. Load it up with your gear, 15-17 would be a good guess.


Matt



As you can see from kc's picture, you can do a SAS on them, but I don't think that would bee needed for your purposes

[Grim Reaper]

Bone stock 86-95 4runners can fit 33's with a hammer on stock rims. 4.88's were a factory option gear in the mid 90's. Factory electric rear lockers are a EASY swap. 20mpg or better no problem if you keep the weight down.

Personally I sort of regret getting the 2 door but I make it work.

[eugene]

You said you didn't want a truck with a shell due to visibility but I've found that with a decent shell/cap on the back you can get better visibility than an SUV. Do one of those nice ler ones that are mostly window or one of the taller than the cab ones. The cap I have on my truck I can't see the top of the back window unless I slide fown in my seat a little so its not blocking any view.
Most caps have an optional opening or removable front window then you get the opening window in the truck so you can crawl through.
An SUV still have the problem of carrying a large item like the Chalet does where a truck you can remove the cap to carry tall things if needed.

[West Coast Mags]

Just buy my suburban for $3k and put the rest of the money into gas or tailoring to suite your needs. It's fuel injected, gets 14mph, and would be much more livable than a compact SUV, and the price differential buys a lot of gas.
http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s1/metapoint/Snowblind039.jpg

[JIMBO]

:sport_box Whats to argue, even with my trailer, when we SEE or SUSPECT bears in the area, we sleep comfortably INSIDE my Xterra and have for 2 yrs



I'd have to disagree as far as the Xterra goes. At least with the 2nd generation. I have no experience with the first gen. For a single camper the Xterra is great imo. The thing I really like about it is how easy it is to convert the rear area to a fold flat sleeping platform. The rear seat bottoms remove with the pull of two handles. It can be put back just as easy. No unscrewing anything. Also the front passenger side seat has a fold flat "table" mode as well. It is also a bit wider than the old model. I lay down a 4" self inflating mattress and sleep very comfortably in it. I think you could still have room for a single drawer system with a fridge mounted on top it that. It also has a full time 12v outlet in the back which is nice. Having slept in both the Xterra and a compact pickup with a topper, to me the Xterra has a much roomier feel to it. The pickup was more coffin like and more difficult to get in and out of.


http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm83/jimbowby/IMGP0651-Copy.jpg


http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm83/jimbowby/IMGP0659.jpg

And sometimes, we don't


http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm83/jimbowby/IMGP0673-Copy.jpg

I'm 6' 4" and sleep in COMFORT inside the 2nd gen X

:camping: :camping: JIMBO

[77blazerchalet]

Good additional info on XJ Jeeps (probably most of the mileage figures I see on Consumer Guide err on the high side), truck camper shells (mine was not a good example with its smoked bubbles / 2-pane crank open windows combinations on each side), 4runners & Xterras, and the real consideration that a lower priced good condition SUV with lower mileage mpg can offset a better mpg newer one. It runs counterintuitive to my knee-jerk cheapskate ways, but a gas savings of only a few hundred dollars is possible when you are talking about a difference of 8mpg, over the distance between Phoenix and southern Colorado. No offense to Xterras over 'Burbs, of course. Also present in this big decision process is what I'd really enjoy owning and driving, which is a completely subjective choice. No offense to 'Burbs over Xterras in that case.....

[T.Low]

Did I miss the post with your budget in it? OR is that only accessible in a closed session?

Sorry for the link, but I'm on the wrong lap top (no pics).

http://s232.photobucket.com/albums/ee258/wannahuckmastinky/?action=view&current=Poptop062.jpg

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee258/wannahuckmastinky/Poptop080.jpg

Not for sale, just showing what else is out there.

4-5" Overlandvans lift kt,
Rancho 9000s adjustable with indash remote (on board air compressor)
NP233c 4x4 electronic shift 2 spd transfer case,
4:10s with an Eaton Posi,
30.5" ATs
GTRV pop top with sleeper bunk (sleeps 4 inside, comfortably)
Thule awning

MPG can range from 15 to 20 depending.

Suprisingly agile, hauls enough gear for two to go to a wedding 900 miles away, and mountain bike and sea kayak on the way home. Interior build options are endless. Will put Florida Room off the awning, exterior shower, solar panels, a virtual Sportsmobile Mini Me.

Downsides:

It doesn't have bumpers yet because I haven't designed them. (either has ARB, or anyone else for that matter)

Eaton posi is about the only thing available.

No real aftermarket off road parts (implied in number one above)

I'm luvin it. One vehicle, do it all. (then why do I have two other vehicles, because I'm pro-choice I guess, I don't know)

good luck.

[77blazerchalet]

Did I miss the post with your budget in it?..Not for sale, just showing what else is out there...I'm luvin it. My budget is more or less equal to what I can get out of the sale of my Chalet (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=264533#post264533), and my stubborn idea of hauling along a future used Rokon (http://rokon.com/products/scout.htm). I could skip the 2x2 motorcycle for a few years if I found the perfect choice that costs more than I expect.

Great van there, T. Low! http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee258/wannahuckmastinky/Poptop062.jpg And yes, 4x4 converted Astro vans still aren't ruled out, I bookmarked an Expo thread with your contributions a while back along with the one for astrosafarivans.org (http://astrosafarivans.org/bb2/viewforum.php?f=21).

Speaking of which, a guy I was talking to in Ouray seemed to think unibody Astrovans weren't such a great idea. I have no expertise on how such things behave on too many twisty surfaces, what do you and y'all think? How about other unibody 'real' (as opposed to 'cute-utes') offroad 4x4s like the Pathfinder? Apples n' oranges to the Astro or not?

[Atticus_1354]

Speaking of which, a guy I was talking to in Ouray seemed to think unibody Astrovans weren't such a great idea. I have no expertise on how such things behave on too many twisty surfaces, what do you and y'all think? How about other unibody 'real' (as opposed to 'cute-utes') offroad 4x4s like the Pathfinder? Apples n' oranges to the Astro or not?

The jeep Cherokee is a unibody design. You will find mixed opinions on it, but I think, for a light suv/van used for mild offroading and not massively overloaded, it will be fine. Just don't think you can slap 38" tires on it and load it down with thousands of pounds of gear and fly across washboard roads without reinforcing it. If you do like the vehicle, but that worry is with you, just reinforce the unibody. Many people do this with the xj.

[eugene]

the astro isn't completely unibody, the front end has a frame, so its sort of a hybrid between the two. look at some of the sites/forums where people do an engine swap you can see the frame, its pretty much the same as the s10 frame which is why a lot of parts can swap and it was discontinued with the s10.

[77blazerchalet]

the astro isn't completely unibody, the front end has a frame, so its sort of a hybrid between the two. look at some of the sites/forums where people do an engine swap.. Aha, that's why I had it back in the recesses (crevasses?) of my mind, I actually put a link to a V8 swap (http://www.jtrpublishing.com/Pages/AstroVan_V-8.html) in my "minivans musings" thread (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10162&highlight=dodge+minivan) last year. Spaced that out when I was being told they were total unibodies.

[eugene]

probably because all the other minivans are unibody, the astro was the last of the ones with a frame. So my bet is when you say minivan people assume unibody since all of them now are.

[77blazerchalet]

I'm a cautious fella, I don't like going below a certain pure cash reserve amount to pay for emergencies like my crazy high insurance deductible, or an exploded engine in my daily driver car, etc. And since restricted weekend access to the mangy old camper really was putting the skids on doing serious work to it, combined with skidding income from my mutual funds, an offer of $8500 for it was too good to pass up.

By no means have I lost interest in these, I'll keep searching on a near-daily basis for Chalets & Casa Grandes on the internet, and still welcome all sightings of them. Mine is going to an especially appreciative home in Indiana, to be kept indoors out of the rain, and road salt. Most likely I'll be able to announce something on behalf of the new owner that could be a a really nice surprise to you lovers of more than just one type of classic 4x4, but he's not ready for that yet. Recycling old iron rather than crushing good stuff is probably the most I can hint at.

A more practical 4door SUV, 2000-01 Nissan Xterra most likely, is in the works, and maybe later I'll get a more rare Casa Grande just to own for sheer collectibleness. But, I'll drive off that bridge when I get to it.

So if you see this motoring toward Lebanon Indiana in the next couple of days, that be my ex...........
46096

[AeroNautiCal]

The Camping Car concept is very popular in Europe, and as vehicles here are invariably smaller, this makes for greater innovation when it comes to economic self build. There are several types of proven designs, some of which retain the full vehicle seating capacity and do not screw/bolt mount into the base vehicle, or otherwise modify it.

To get the most out of your vehicle, but to not permanently modify it, and/or to retain full seating capacity (if these things matter to you) yet still have a functional camping car are well within the self builder's scope, as are the fixed conversions which also retain full seating and don't compromise on the 'everyday utility/family' role of the vehicle.

So here's some idea's on how it's done in Europe...

Enjoy... This (http://www.furgovw.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=a210a5aa81f61d583e677828c8acb8 2f&topic=174565.0)! http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv29/helixpteron/happy0054.gif

[rusty_tlc]

Two very viable options base on you requirements;
Toyota 4WD van from the 80's
4WD Astro van

[bugnout]

As for Liberty's, the 2002 brochure photo below shows I could sleep in there but only after the front seat is removed - the length of the yellow area is equal to the nearly 72 inch width of a Liberty, using this photo as a guide and guestimating a bit on where the outside panels would be. And, I happen to need 72 inches to stretch out comfortably.http://i539.photobucket.com/albums/ff358/19camper77/Librv.jpg

I'm 71 inches tall and find sleeping in my liberty pretty easy/ comfortable. I have power seats, and just move the drivers seat all the way forward and lean the seat forward. It tucks up pretty tight to the steering wheel. Currently I have a small cooler that fits perfectly in the space between the back seat and the back of the drivers seat. The rear seats don't fold flat, so I sleep head to the front slightly elevated, which I find comfortable. I use two old sleeping pads.

I figured out how to get the seats to lay flat, I've yet to find time to make the mods. Also plan to mount a hinged plywood platform to the back of the rear seat to bridge the gap the cooler fills now. For interior space, I have a steel interior rack across the back that lets me get a significant amount of stuff off the floor.

Also installed window vents so I can crack the windows and not worry about rain getting in.

[Ozarker]

The "Opportunity Cost" is the value of the alternative not selected, and it's not limited to the dollar amount of the running maintenance and expenses. I had a Pathfinder and took it off raod and camped in it. Nothing technical, but off the fire roads. It is bullet proof. I also had a Safari AWD, Never camped in it like we talk about here, but spent many nights in it and 18+ hours at a stretch. Never took the Safari really off road, but out in pastures, some woods and along creeks, if you call that "off road".

The Safari was hands down the more comfortable of the two alternatives. I could duck walk around and move about bent over. In the Pathfinder (or any SUV of its size) you'll be crawling or slithering in and out. The van has more usuable space. MPG is about the same, the GMC maybe a little better. In my area, the Pathy will cost more than any Astro in comprable years and condition. Either will tow about the same. High winds on the highway you'll be fighting more in the GMC than a Pathy, but it's not that bad (if it gets that bad you should probably get off the road anyway!) I would say that bigger is better in this comparison.

While the opportunity costs can be measured in dollars to some extent, the cost of seeing the doctor about my back is another issue. IMO, the costs of comfort lost in any SUV compared to a van are much higher....and the same thing goes again if we compared a van to a motorhome. If you're a hard core offroader, I'd suggest the Pathfinder or like others a good SUV, if you lean more toward the camping and livability ov the vehicle, with some offroad abilities, seems the GMC/Astro would be a better choice, even without a top.

[Frankspinz]

Sounds like my 2003 Nissan Xterra ! I removed the rear seat backs and cussions, built a raised platform (about 8 inches) - lots of storage room under the platform, room to sleep on top... More storage on the roof rack ...