Looking for a Jeep Wrangler

[CA-RJ]

Hey everyone. I'm a long time Jeep owner and had a 1999 Wrangler with the 2.5L for 7 years. I sold it to buy my 4Runner. I'm now looking to get another Jeep. It will be my daily driver and I don't expect to turn it into a monster.

I've been looking through Auto Trader.com and on Car Max.com at the 04-06 Rubicon SWB and the Unlimiteds. I'm having a really hard time deciding between the two. The Rubicon has better gearing, lockers and better tires right off the bat. The Unlimited has more space and can be found for about $1-2k less.

I don't have kids. I like to do rock crawling, explore in the desert and camp.

So, what do you think I should get? I really like the lockers that the Rubicon has. I like that there is more space for camping stuff in the Unlimited. (Oh, the Unlimited Rubicon is out, they are out of the budget).

[efuentes]

Get an Unlimited, buy a used rear Rubicon axle or an ARB locker and run ....

[blue94yj]

Get a Rubicon Unlimited.

[BIGdaddy]

yup, get an unlimited..... rubicon or not.


if its a rubicon, you're good to go, just put a winch on it and enjoy...


i wanted the non-rubicon, so i could add detroits and cuz i didn't want the 4:1 ratio t-case. i do a lot of dune/sand running and wanted the ability to keep my speed up (a problem with low geared, stock rubicons) and the NP231 case does that better.

if i decided down the line that i wanted 4:1's i can add a tera-low kit, as well as a slip yoke and have the exact same ability with a much more common/inexpensive tcase.



by the way, in the back of my unlimited i have:
-a huge 8 person tent
-full size cooler
-5gallon jerry can of water
-kitchen box, milk crate of tools
-coleman camp stove
-full set of recovery gear and straps.
-fire extinguisher
-room to spare(i could easily fit another jerry can full of water in there.

oh, and this is with two car seats in the rear seat.

[SeaRubi]

unlimited all the way ... no comparison! better ride, better climbing, more space. some budget lockers or whatever and you're set.

[madizell]

For general use I would also say "not the Rubicon" because you will be paying for items you don't need or perhaps won't want. I particularly think that a 4:1 T-case is simply not needed for other than crawling. I changed ratios from 2.7:1 to 3:1, and even that small difference made a huge difference in low range speeds and gear spreads. It essentially reduced my 5-speed transmission to a 2-speed in low range unless I am crawling over something rather large or winching hands free, and instead of a top speed in low range of around 45 or 50mph, I now have a top speed of about 28 to 35mph. Going to a 4:1 would make it so slow it would be useless for trails.

Personally, I would think of using a 4:1 T-case in an unmodified or lightly modified Jeep only if using a 4 cylinder motor.

[maximumrob]

You wrote that you like rock crawling, which means no matter what you buy, you'll break and replace parts. Might as well start off with the cheap stuff anyway since it'll all be changed out! Get the Unlimited.

One poster above noted that if it's a Rubicon, put a winch on it and leave well enough alone. Puuuuuhleeeeeeze...there's no such thing as leaving a Jeep stock! :)



.

[goodtimes]

You wrote that you like rock crawling, which means no matter what you buy, you'll break and replace parts.

Simply not true. Not everyone who enjoys rock crawling flogs their rig. Sure, things break from time to time...but a careful driver who knows that you don't need speed to get over every obstacle out there can get by with a stock rubicon drivetrain for years....I'm going on 6 years without a problem....and my jeep has been places where it probably shouldn't have...

As for a jeep staying stock.....yea....not many do.

[TD64]

I just scored a Rubicon Unlimited and love it! I pulled out the rear seat and there is a lot of room; I can fit two mountain bikes and all my gear in there!

So, is something like this in the budget?... 05 Rubicon Unlimited 17K miles for 23K.
http://images.craigslist.org/010103010408010306200809029d42d172610dc6cf65005da6 .jpg
<delete expired craigslist posting>

[Haggis]

Hmmm... seeems to be a trend here...so let me add to it. After having a TJ and now an LJ, I'd recommend the Unlimited all the way...same parts bolt to both, but that extra bit off length makes worlds of difference.

[SeaRubi]

I do miss my LJ - just a great vehicle. Only two years in production - these should hold their value pretty well if you hang on to 'em.

http://www.speakeasy.org/~thefains/img/jeep/summertime_jeep.jpg

:campfire:

[nwoods]

We recently got an 05 Rubicon Unlimited. We travel with our kids, so the rear seat is always in. Most TJ's I see do not have the rear seat in so that they have some more space.

I have heard from numerous people that the LJ rides much better and is more stable. I can't compare, but it seems okay. It's hard to tell, as we are coming from a Land Rover and they are night and day different sorts of vehicles.

We went Rubicon and I'm glad I did, for what we do, the stock lockers and drivetrain seems more than adequate, though 5" of lift and 35" tires really make a huge improvement in capability on rocky trails....less so on the road.

http://nwoods.smugmug.com/photos/297405674_D9MsJ-L.jpg

http://nwoods.smugmug.com/photos/305281677_dhn7H-L.jpg

http://nwoods.smugmug.com/photos/305283257_APQLR-L.jpg

[CA-RJ]

Thanks for all the advice! I went and test drove a 2006 Unlimited with an automatic transmission and a soft top. It drove pretty nice, though it was noisier than my lifted 4Runner. I got used to that when I had my first Wrangler, so I'm sure I can get used to it again. The automatic wasn't bad but I would like to drive a 6 speed so I can compare. The dealer only had 2 automatics so I guess I'll have to wait and see if they get any in in the next couple of weeks.

Now, I just have to sell the 4Runner.

[grahamfitter]

i wanted the non-rubicon, so i could add detroits and cuz i didn't want the 4:1 ratio t-case. i do a lot of dune/sand running and wanted the ability to keep my speed up (a problem with low geared, stock rubicons) and the NP231 case does that better.


For general use I would also say "not the Rubicon" because you will be paying for items you don't need or perhaps won't want. I particularly think that a 4:1 T-case is simply not needed for other than crawling.

Thanks for the insight, folks. I'm starting to think about what to replace my '97 TJ with and I was half tempted with a Rubicon simply because I'm not particularly excited about making any mechanical changes and the Rubicon has a few useful things done to it already that are covered by the factory warranty. It sounds like for the places I go, just the 4.1 transfer case would likely make the whole vehicle less useful to me than the other goodies put together would improve it.

As far as regular or unlimited, I'd say that the lack of space in the regular size is quite liberating and is all part of the charm. You just can't get that with an unlimited but obviously kids, toys, etc. all come into the equation so its good there is now a choice of sizes.

Cheers,
Graham

[BIGdaddy]

Thanks for the insight, folks. I'm starting to think about what to replace my '97 TJ with and I was half tempted with a Rubicon simply because I'm not particularly excited about making any mechanical changes and the Rubicon has a few useful things done to it already that are covered by the factory warranty. It sounds like for the places I go, just the 4.1 transfer case would likely make the whole vehicle less useful to me than the other goodies put together would improve it.

As far as regular or unlimited, I'd say that the lack of space in the regular size is quite liberating and is all part of the charm. You just can't get that with an unlimited but obviously kids, toys, etc. all come into the equation so its good there is now a choice of sizes.

Cheers,
Graham

you pretty much have it nailed Graham...

TJ's definitely are iconic and forces you to be very choosy about mods, and packing, as there are a ton of mods out there, and very little room extraneous stuff, respectively.

LJ's almost require modifications such as rock sliders, a tummy tuck (low profile center skid plate) and a slight 1"-2" spring/body or spacer lift to be on par with a TJ as far as close to stock ability...

Don't get me wrong, the rocTRac is a great tcase, with slipyoke from the factory, but the NP231 with its 2.42ish:1 ratio does great with a careful driver and a traction device in the rear. I've got the stock LSD in the stock rear D44 in mine and it has never let me down.

The extra room of the Unlimited has made a specialized vehicle like the wrangler, a plausible family car, without much fuss. I love it. :sombrero:

if you're honest with your needs and cargo/people requirements, both are very good choices, IMO, on par with D90's, FJ40s, etc.

[BIGdaddy]

oh, and it should be said, that the difference in ride quality between a TJ and an LJ is remarkable.

TJ = covered wagon ---simple, stout, rugged, bouncy

LJ =cadillac. ---velvety smooth, stable in turns, a bit squishy when loaded.


Old man emu solves all problems though. makes both very nice, and adds a ton of cargo-carrying ability to both.


last thing

soft top = ability to go topless, yet very, very noisy, lets weather in

hard top = protection from elements, nice and quiet, adds a lot of weight.

i picked a hard top cuz we're not the topless kind...though i'm still considering cutting side panel openings and making a hybrid hard/soft top...not sure if i'm ready to let the noise/weather in, though!

[SeaRubi]

child, dog, swmbo - it all adds up, in a hurry! Even the LJ was a little cramped for all of us. Without the dog it was very reasonable, but adding in 75lbs of animal pretty much blew out any storage space.

LJ with seat folded up:
http://www.speakeasy.org/~thefains/img/dog_rubi_camping.jpg

[Haggis]

soft top = ability to go topless, yet very, very noisy, lets weather in

hard top = protection from elements, nice and quiet, adds a lot of weight.

i picked a hard top cuz we're not the topless kind...though i'm still considering cutting side panel openings and making a hybrid hard/soft top...not sure if i'm ready to let the noise/weather in, though!

I just switched from the softtop to a hardtop, because I use my LJ as my daily driver and getting tools and buckets of stain and such out of the rear softtop panel was a a pain in the batuccuss. especially during the winter when the salt encrustes the rear zippers.

I've seen no difference in handling or gas mileage as far as the weight of the hardtop. Really the hardtop doesn't way more than a ten year old so I think the weight is a non issue.

Other benefits of the hardtop that folks in the SW and West coast might not have considered:
*Being able to brush the snow of the windows without scratching them.
*No window scratches as you have trees hugging your vehicle on a forested trail.
*Again during the winter months being able to use the automatic carwash to wash off the salt . Not a good idea in a soft top.

[nwoods]

Graham, not sure what you meant by "...just the 4.1 transfer case would likely make the whole vehicle less useful to me than the other goodies put together would improve it."

Around here, for the kind of SoCal wheeling, it seems about perfect, unless you are planning on heading to Barstow and doing the JeepSpeed sort of thing, wide open full throttle through the whoops.

As we are neighbors now, I'll let you drive my 05 Rubicon LJ on the trail next month (per my email to you), and you can decide if that transfer box ratio is right for you or not.

[grahamfitter]

Graham, not sure what you meant by "...just the 4.1 transfer case would likely make the whole vehicle less useful to me than the other goodies put together would improve it."

Around here, for the kind of SoCal wheeling, it seems about perfect, unless you are planning on heading to Barstow and doing the JeepSpeed sort of thing, wide open full throttle through the whoops.

As we are neighbors now, I'll let you drive my 05 Rubicon LJ on the trail next month (per my email to you), and you can decide if that transfer box ratio is right for you or not.

Mostly it means that being able to get up a reasonable speed in 4-low has been handy to get up some speed after outrunning whatever sludge was chasing me. If I had to find 4-hi at walking pace there's a good chance the sludge would laugh while sucking me back in.

Note other than getting stuck on the bottom of the transfer case, I haven't found the limitations of my current TJ with 31 inch tires and no lift so I'm not exactly the most adventurous/knowledgeable/experienced/etc driver in the Northeast. Paraphrased: I don't know what I don't know so I appreciate all words of wisdom that come my way.

On the topic of not knowing what I don't know but carrying on anyway, if my stock TJ can just about squeeze over something, an LJ with the same clearance probably won't fare as well. So intuitively, to go the same places, an unlimited will need more spent on it.

Having said all that, I'm going to get thoroughly schooled by Nathan (who's email has got lost in the ether) and will probably end up with a wish list of expensive things I never knew existed.

The only universal truth I know is this: It will end in beers :)

Cheers,
Graham

[CA-RJ]

The wife and I talked about the hard top vs. soft top issue. I had a hard top on my 99 TJ and it was a pain to get the hard top off. I always needed a second person to get the darned thing off. Weather isn't really a concern here in southern California so having the convenience of taking the top down or unzipping the side and rear windows is really nice.

There has been mention that the TJ will offroad better than a LJ in stock form. I don't really see it as an issue. For me and Old Man Emu lift and a set of 32's and a rear ARB will take me everywhere I want to go.

[nwoods]

Mostly it means that being able to get up a reasonable speed in 4-low has been handy to get up some speed after outrunning whatever sludge was chasing me. If I had to find 4-hi at walking pace there's a good chance the sludge would laugh while sucking me back in.

Note other than getting stuck on the bottom of the transfer case, I haven't found the limitations of my current TJ with 31 inch tires and no lift so I'm not exactly the most adventurous/knowledgeable/experienced/etc driver in the Northeast. Paraphrased: I don't know what I don't know so I appreciate all words of wisdom that come my way.

LOL, sludge, as in... mud? Never heard of it man. Doesn't exist around here. Now rocks, we got plenty of. Big ones, little ones, sharp ones, smooth ones, but make no mistake there are rocks and there is bone dry dust, but nary a trace of mud on the vast majority of trails here in SoCal.

http://nwoods.smugmug.com/photos/305282181_eZBSZ-L.jpg

http://nwoods.smugmug.com/photos/305281969_NtzDJ-L.jpg

I'll send that email.

Cheers,

NW

[BIGdaddy]

The wife and I talked about the hard top vs. soft top issue. I had a hard top on my 99 TJ and it was a pain to get the hard top off. I always needed a second person to get the darned thing off. Weather isn't really a concern here in southern California so having the convenience of taking the top down or unzipping the side and rear windows is really nice.

There has been mention that the TJ will offroad better than a LJ in stock form.

I said that...

I don't really see it as an issue. For me and Old Man Emu lift and a set of 32's and a rear ARB will take me everywhere I want to go.and then i said that...


you said what i said, amigo...lol.

[bmonday]

There has been mention that the TJ will offroad better than a LJ in stock form.

Not sure why anyone thinks that. It's pretty much an accepted truth in the Jeeping community that the extra wheelbase of the LJ outperforms the TJ in nearly every scenario. Owners with sufficient cash actually stretch the wheelbase of their TJs to gain the same advantage.

You start off with better axles in the LJ versus what you often find in TJs too.

[BIGdaddy]

Not sure why anyone thinks that. It's pretty much an accepted truth in the Jeeping community that the extra wheelbase of the LJ outperforms the TJ in nearly every scenario. Owners with sufficient cash actually stretch the wheelbase of their TJs to gain the same advantage.

You start off with better axles in the LJ versus what you often find in TJs too.


the only thing that the tj has on the LJ (which i mentioned earlier) is the breakover angle.

being at basically the same ride height, and being 6-8 inches longer in the wheelbase, is a detriment.

to which i posted, that one could do a 1" body lift, motor mount lift, install a high clearance skid plate and run 31's-32's, and totally mitigate that issue.

i'm going to go one step further and add a 2" OME lift or spacer lift, just cuz it doesn't hurt anything at all to do so. (and the fact that the OME setup will handle the loads i saddle my LJ with)

[TCM]

After owning two short wheelbase TJs, a 97 and a 03 Rubicon, I purchased an 06 Rubicon Unlimited in April. The difference in ride quality is remarkable, a much smoother ride with vastly improved stability. It is also much more quiet than a TJ in that it has much more sound deadening material under the carpet and behind the firewall. As for size, while 15" of extra length does not sound like much the increase in usable storage space seems more like 30". The space behind the rear seat of a TJ is well, mostly non-existent, but with the Unlimited I can easily pack the full allotment of gear for my family of three with room to spare. Yes I am a frugal packer from my days in the TJ, but unless you plan to pack a full gourmet kitchen it is more than enough. The question of Rubicon or non-rubicon, it really depends on whether you drive in the rocks or in mud. In rocks the 4:1 transfer case of the Rubicon is ideal. In mud it definitely produces gearing that is too low. My travels never involve mud and I much prefer having the control that 4:1 provides in the rocks. I also highly recommend an Old Man Emu suspension setup for the Unlimited. I run the OME suspension with 255/85R16 tires. It is a big improvement over stock and provides plenty of clearance for anything short of full on rock crawling. The only real down side to the TJ Unlimited is cumbersome entry and egress for the back seat. I love the look of two doors, but no one can deny that four doors are better for rear passengers, especially children that require assistance. I almost bought a new 4 door JK for this reason, but I found the TJ Unlimited for $20k with 11,000 miles (highway only) on the odometer and could not pass it up. Oh, and for mileage I get 17 mpg on the highway if averaging 65 mph. On the trail this can drop to 10 mpg (ouch) with deflated tires at 18psi and aggressive driving. With inflated tires at 36 psi and conservative driving it is around 13-14 mpg off road.

[CA-RJ]

So I've narrowed my choices down to two--

2006 Unlimited, Auto, 17k miles for $17

2005 Unlimited Rubicon, 2k miles for $20k

I'm really having a hard time here. I've never used a 4:1 T-case and am wondering what it would be like with the auto. I don't do mud, but the idea of going to Glamis once in a while leaves me wondering if the 4:1 will really hurt me. I like that the Rubicon has the lockers and MT/R's already too. In the end, it's really about the 4:1. I'm not sure that I want/need it.

Any more advice?

[BIGdaddy]

wow, 2 thousand miles, huh?...lol. definitely get THAT one.

i assume 12 thousand miles? or 20 thousand?


i think that if i could go back, i'd probably choose a rubicon...though i am perfectly content with my regular LJ...

I like the idea that all the parts that i have added/will add on my own, would be covered under warranty if i had a rubicon.

I'm at the point in my life, just in the last few year, where I like having a professional do the job ONCE and have it be done right.

in the case of the rubicon, the shop was JEEP, and the workers we're engineers way smarter than i am. They're pretty good at making things work right.

probably doesn't help any. :D

[CA-RJ]

No it shows 1499 on the odo. Crazy huh? I'm thinking pretty hard about it. It's practically brand new!

[nwoods]

Rubicon would be my vote. The more I read about mine, the more things seem different, upgraded, better, etc.. on the Rubicon than the other models. Seems like every off road upgrade will say something like, "needs sye adaptor * Except Rubicon models" or words to that effect.

There are LOTS of little differences. Most of which I am still ignorant of, but I keep reading....

[mrchips]

I have an LJ Rubicon, and have done sand and alot of the time I just run 4 Wheel High range, and just keep up the momentum, and run tire pressures around 8 psi, yes no beadlocks,

[hutchman]

FWIW.........

If it was my money, and it's not....I would buy an Unlimited with an auto. I base this opinion on the fact that I have had two SWB Rubicons, both manuals - one each 5/6 speed. We have sand where I live and I could never seem to make the engine happy when in the sand. In low range, to get enough wheel speed, you need torque in a higher gear or engine speed in a lower gear. There just didn't seem to be a happy medium with the gear choices available - the engine was either rev'd too high or luggging. I believe that for most wheeling, with rocks being the exception, you are better served with the standard transfer case.

I have driven LWB TJs and believe they are much better suited for a DD and would also be great on trails. After two TJs, the LWB would be my choice.

My choice of the automatic is because the auto should help overcome some of the loss of gear multiplication in the stock transfer case. A slipping torque converter has the same effect as lower gears, so my theory is the auto should give back some of the low speed advantage given up in the transfer case.

I believe the automatic Unlimited would be as good a choice as a manual Rubicon from a gear ratio standpoint.

Of course the lockers really make a difference and if you don't want to build one yourself or are not able, then the Rubicon would win hands down. With a 2" BB and a 1" BL, they make a great and inexpensive forest service road Jeep!

[CA-RJ]

I am having the Unlimited Rubicon shipped to me tomorrow. They say it could take a couple of weeks.

Thanks for all the advice.

[BIGdaddy]

I am having the Unlimited Rubicon shipped to me tomorrow. They say it could take a couple of weeks.

Thanks for all the advice.


:clapsmile

[RedRocker]

If anybody knows of an 05/06 Unlimited Rubicon near the North Texas area give me a shout. Would prefer an auto and some mods, but anything will be considered.

[CA-RJ]

This one (http://www.carmax.com/enUS/view-car/default.html?AVi=2&id=4983261&D=90&ASTc=jeep%20wrangler%20rubicon%20unlimited&zip=91784&No=0&Ep=Homepage&Rp=R&PP=50&sV=List&CD=14+190+8+9&Q=37bc0716-935d-4b07-bc50-9e337fa4b566) is in North Carolina but they'll transfer it to the closest Car Max to you. That's what I'm doing with the one I bought.

[RedRocker]

Thanks for the info.

[CA-RJ]

I got my Jeep tonight! Man, is it cool. It has all the signs of being a Unlimited Rubicon Sahara Edition. It has the upgraded interior, color matching fender flairs and the Moab wheels with the grey in the spokes. I can't wait to get this thing in the dirt on Saturday!

[kcowyo]

Congrats Ryan - :beer:

.

[SeaRubi]

have fun - the first few trips are the most fun ... and the most tense! watchout for the oilpan if you hit the rocks.

[The Swiss]

I got my Jeep tonight! Man, is it cool. It has all the signs of being a Unlimited Rubicon Sahara Edition. It has the upgraded interior, color matching fender flairs and the Moab wheels with the grey in the spokes. I can't wait to get this thing in the dirt on Saturday!Congratulations.

(I hope you are not reading these post now but outside exploring your Rubi :D)

[CA-RJ]

Thanks guys! Driving it to work today was fun. I'm back to the slow lane again. 55-60 is all I'm willing to do right now until I get a read on what my MPG is. Tonight I put my Scan Gauge in. Tomorrow I'm going to install my CB and antenna. Thursday, I'm going to pull the junky after market radio and put my Alpine head unit in.

[RedRocker]

Thanks guys! Driving it to work today was fun. I'm back to the slow lane again. 55-60 is all I'm willing to do right now until I get a read on what my MPG is. Tonight I put my Scan Gauge in. Tomorrow I'm going to install my CB and antenna. Thursday, I'm going to pull the junky after market radio and put my Alpine head unit in.

Isn't there a rule about posting pix of new Jeeps?:safari-rig:

[CA-RJ]

I know, I know. By the time I get home from work and eat, it's dark. I will post them soon. I'm going on the Expo trail run on Saturday (in CA section) so I'll likely take a few pictures of it then.

[grahamfitter]

Nice! :sombrero:

I have to say that now I've been in an LJ the ride is immeasurably better than my TJ and I want one. Darn.

Cheers,
Graham