Roof design examples and comment

[haven]

This thread is prompted by a request from Mike Van Pelt for
a place to talk about the height and design of the rooff for
an expedition camper

I can think of five different directions you might go with a roof,
plus a few pros and cons for each design.

What do you think?

Chip Haven


1. Hard top with fixed roof height

This is the way most campers are built, with full stand-up room
inside at all times

For example, here is group member FusoFG's full height camper

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z241/expeditioncampers/tom-fuso-1.jpg

Don and Kim Greene's camper is also full height

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z241/expeditioncampers/fuso-126.jpg


advantages:

easier to build

less complicated / no roof-raising mechanism to fail

full interior is available anytime

usually possible to have larger glass windows

more interior cabinets mounted on walls

no complicated seals / dust can't enter as easily

fewer concerns about weight placed on the roof

not as obvious that you're camping on the street overnight


disadvantages:

clearance overhead can be a problem on trails

Jeeps in Colorado
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z241/expeditioncampers/overheadobstacle2a.jpg

Stephen Stewart's Unimog camper
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z241/expeditioncampers/unimog2.jpg

height an issue on off-camber roads (camper leans out farther)

Mike Van Pelt's Unicat U500 in action
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z241/expeditioncampers/GEV-1.jpg

can't load into a container
...may be possible by mounting small-diameter steel disc wheels

Are these issues enough to dissuade you from choosing a taller camper?

[haven]

2. Pop-up top with fabric walls

In this type of camper, the roof retracts while you're driving.
When camping, the roof lifts straight up or the entire roof flips
180 degrees

This is Kym Bolton's Canter FG with the roof raised

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z241/expeditioncampers/fuso-116a.jpg

and here is the same camper fitting into a shipping container

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z241/expeditioncampers/goanna-tracks-10.jpg

Polycomposit is a French company that makes a pop-up roof
that mounts to the frame of small pickups

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z241/expeditioncampers/polycomposit-4.jpg

Other manufacturers of pop-up soft-sided roof campers that slide
into a pickup truck bed include
Four Wheel Camper, Host, Outfitter, Hallmark and Northstar


advantages of a popup with fabric walls

low profile while driving

full stand-up height throughout once the roof is raised

best ventilation via large zip-open windows

canvas sides can be repaired without special tools or materials

canvas sides are lighter, so a less powerful roof lifting mechanism is OK


disadvantages

poor protection against severe weather unless a rain fly is added

single-layer fabric sides don't insulate well

fabric walls are not as weatherproof as hard walls

fabric has to be re-sealed against water penetration every few years

fabric will need to be replaced after 10? years

roof lowering is more complicated
... fabric has to be tucked inside and not pinched by top when closed

it's like a tent, so you may feel less secure

if roof flips over to open (Flip-Pac, Earthroamer EV-JP), then you're
very limited to what can be placed on roof, or you have to remove
everything from the roof before opening the top.

[haven]

3. Pop-up roof with hard walls

There are a few manufacturers who make a pop-up camper
with hard sides that lift straight up. Alaskan Camper, Oregon Camper
and XP Camper are three that come to mind.

Here is a custom Alaskan Camper, mounted on a Dodge Sprinter chassis

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z241/expeditioncampers/sprinteralaskan1.jpg

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z241/expeditioncampers/sprinteralaskan5.jpg

And here is a European design (I don't remember which company
makes this!) When the roof is lowered it covers the windows for
security.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z241/expeditioncampers/toyota79popup.jpg

Highrise is an Australian company that makes an interesting hard side design
with a bedroom slideout.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z241/expeditioncampers/highrise-2.png

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z241/expeditioncampers/highrise-1.png


advantages:

low profile while driving reduces fuel consumption, avoids obstacles

full standing room throughout when roof is raised

offers better weather protection than canvas sides
...better insulated, no worries about adding a rain fly in heavy rain

better protected against intrusion by bears and other animals
...OK for campgrounds with bear problems

hardtop walls can protect windows when down (depending on design)

can be designed to drive into a shipping container

psychological feeling of greater security with hard walls


disadvantages

heavier than soft top

mechanism to raise top adds weight, takes power

difficult to seal out dust while driving

raised roof says "I'm camping here" to authorities and passersby

to make the roof over the truck cab as low as possible, some designs
have folding sidewalls, which let in dust and rain when you're setting up

[haven]

4. Swing up soft top
These campers have one side of the top attached to a hinge, and use fabric walls.
The most familiar example is the Westfalia pop-top roof on a VW camper.

Here's an example from Australia

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z241/expeditioncampers/rob-leila-j.jpg

And here's a Land Rover with a modified roof

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z241/expeditioncampers/roverd100.jpg


advantages

low height while driving

Simplest pop-up design

hinge supports weight, keeps top and side walls aligned
...so lifting mechanism can be simpler and less powerful
...a manually powered lifting system may be possible


disadvantages

full standup height is not available near the hinge

same disadvantages as full-length pop-up with fabric walls,
described in message #2 above.

[haven]

5. Swing up hard side top

The least common design has a roof that is attached to the body
of the camper using a hinge on one side, and that has hard walls
that pop up when the roof is opened.

One clever design is by J Baldwin of Quickup Camper. The design
looks like a simple bed cap when closed, but opens to provide
basic shelter.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z241/expeditioncampers/Quickup-2.jpg

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z241/expeditioncampers/Quickup-1.jpg

Innovan, an Australian company, has another design for a "hinge-up
hard wall" camper. This camper is avaliable for a flatbed, or as a trailer.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z241/expeditioncampers/innovan-1.jpg

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z241/expeditioncampers/innovan-2.jpg

The pop-up hardwall that hinges from the side has the advantages and
disadvantages of the pop-up hardwall that lifts straight up (message 3 above). The hinge keeps the top aligned
during its movement so there needs to be less cross bracing. And the hinge carries some of the weight of the roof.

[haven]

OK -- which design do you prefer, and why? Please post examples of designs you like!

Chip Haven

[FusoFG]

Chip,

Interesting question.

I had a vw diesel westfalia pop top and the picture of the Fuso with the 2 white dogs is my second hard top camper on a FG chassis.

We could sleep in the westfalia with the top down if we were trying to keep a "low profile". At 5' tall, my wife is short enough to cook with the top down.

We only needed to raise the roof if we were camped for a longer time and wanted to stand up or we wanted to sleep in the upper bunk to catch the best breeze in warm weather.

I have been thinking of building a smaller camper with a pop top on my original 93 FG. We could use it on tighter more techical trails or in a 2 vehicle caravan to bring along siblings, children or grandchildren.


Other drawbacks with a pop top are:

A cloth pop top is less secure when camping in grizzly country.

Either a cloth or hard sided pop top in my opinion makes it harder to build a stand up shower.

The reason we sold the westfalia and built the Fuso camper was to get a shower (and, oh yeah, 4wd).

Tom

[Accrete]

Hi Chip, fun thread. Like Tom in his post, my wife and i had a (1980) westfalia pop top with the angled roof design and loved it.

I'm going to add this little tid bit from personal experience with some comments. At another thread on this site is the following picture:

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z241/expeditioncampers/fuso-121a.jpg

... and here is a picture of my wife's and my TACO-Liner (Tacoma+Aliner) :
http://www.accrete.com/p-tgl/taco/pix/Aliner/TACO-Liner-www.jpg

What i wanted to comment on is that the roof design is quite nice. There are no mechanics to it other than four piano hinges, four corner springs, and two bungies. It goes up even in pouring rain with little a-do. The rain sounds pleasant, snow slides off, and boy what a view out of the windows!

I believe that one could make a camper utilizing this design but with higher walls, maybe 5ft? or 6ft? Then have the bed above similar to what takes place with some of the Unicats. I know there is weight involved, but you could make the box shorter, 12 to 14 ft on a fuso and have a usable bathroom while on the road, easy access to the kitchen, and then once in camp pop the top and have a little A-Frame cabin all your own.

My wife and i have visited RV show after show, and for a 14ft x 7ft floor size we have never been in any RV that was so inviting and open as the Aliner/Chalet hard sided aframes. Everything on the roof/walls is user fixable. It truly is a simple design and sheds wind and rain like an A-frame would. Many of those in the A-Frame club have solar panels, and a couple have even rigged up solar hot water radiator setups for shower/sink use. Pretty nice.

: ) Thom

[dhackney]

Chip,

Some additional factors for soft sides:


noise
wind
water ingress while setting up (which I think you mentioned for one design)
wear points


Every couple/person I've interviewed with a soft side, lift top design has mentioned one or more of these factors, or we have experienced them on other campers.

Noise/sound is a real issue in overlanding. When in a transit stage, you often sleep in fuel stations, in front of police stations and in central plazas. All of these locations can be very loud, and there is basically no inbound sound insulation with a soft side. The same is true for outbound sounds as well. :)

Wind is a very big consideration for areas such as Patagonia. The wind there is not like wind you think of in everyday life. It truly is a force of nature, the 5th element, as it were. People I have interviewed with soft tops went extended periods where they could not erect the top because the winds were too strong. It is hard to imagine until you experience it.

Water ingress while setting up is an issue in heavy, wind blown rain.

Wear points are a constant issue. Even the best designs are subject to wear, and once weakend, tears and holes.


Shot of typical Land Rover Defender 110 soft top setup.
http://www.hackneys.com/travel/rigs/2008-08-05-SD870%20IS-6303-800.jpg
Peter Hander & Stefanie Furer, Swiss, 2001 Land Rover Defender

[Lynn]

IIRC when the Wescott's crossed Siberia in Turtle III they were unable to lift the soft-sided poptop because the material was brittle at extreme low temperatures.

I doubt, however, if the brittleness was really an issue. At very low temps one would probably have to leave the top down simply due to the poor insulation of the soft sides.

[OutbacKamper]

The mainstream North American RV industry is starting to introduce more hybrid designs. At there best they combine the advantages of hardside and soft side pop-ups. I think this idea of having a hardside camper with a fold out soft side tent is a great idea for an expedition camper. Here is an example from Host (the side slide out would not be so great for an EC).
Another example from Lance.

http://www.hostindustries.com/graphics/campers/mckinley/fp_mckinley.jpg
http://www.hostindustries.com/graphics/camper_owner_pics/yukon_tent.jpg
http://www.truckcampermagazine.com/images/stories/march_2008/lance830-11exterior2.jpg

Cheers
Mark

[ntsqd]

Some thoughts on various aspects of the topic:

Seems to me that the insulation issue with soft sides need only copy the better sleeping bag batten designs and incorporate some insulation. How much would be a trade off with how much collapsed room could be given to it.
Alternately the insulation could be a 'curtain', again copying the better bag batten design(s), that is independent of the actual soft side and is either fastened in place when needed or stowed out of the way (rolled up ala tent doors?).The only illustration that I found with a short search:
http://www.kathmandu.com.au/managed_images/techinfo/baffle.jpg


With a hard sided pop-top, could there not be a flexible boot be attached such that either a wiper type seal or a labyrinth type seal would be redundant?



Having seen pictures of what a western Sierras black bear can do to a car when in search of food, I think even the hard walls of a Unicat etc. impart a very false sense of security.

[HMR]

Great thread!
:lurk:

[Atticus_1354]

I have always loved the soft pop tops. But my interests also run toward smaller vehicle like jeeps and land cruisers. I think the overall GVWR of your chosen transport needs to be considered. If your running a FG truck or other large truck a hard side setup is a great way to go. But it is hard to beat the pop tops for small camper vans and suvs.

[whatcharterboat]

I can think of five different directions you might go with a roof,
plus a few pros and cons for each design.

What do you think?

Chip Haven

Chip What I think, is that you have got the most amazing ability to pull pics out of thin air to describe exactly what you are saying. Thanks.
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z241/expeditioncampers/unimog2.jpg

Having alot of trouble with my photo sharing site at the moment, but I had hoped to join this thread with some roof profile pics and opinions of pop top v fixed roof , yada yada. Also trying to talk the boss into letting me post some sneak peaks of our new pop top onto ExPo before offical release. Perfect opportunity for some feedback.Will get back soon. Is Picasa easy to use?

BTW This truck isn't the same one as the FG on the beach. Trust me. Know every nut and bolt on that one and the one in the container definitely isn't it. Maybe it's an Izusu??? Does look like our body profile though.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z241/expeditioncampers/goanna-tracks-10.jpg

Oh and Thom, great idea about optional insulation for the soft sides on the pop top. Want a job?

John

[Harald Hansen]

And here is a European design (I don't remember which company
makes this!) When the roof is lowered it covers the windows for
security.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z241/expeditioncampers/toyota79popup.jpg


It's from Finck Campingsysteme (http://www.expedition-cabin.de/) in Germany.

Some more of their work in this thread (http://turpaahjul.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=626).

[ThomD]

My personal favorite:

http://www1.ttcn.ne.jp/~gyo/P6150439.jpg

I value being able to use the head without any setup; not screaming "I'm an RV", unless the roof is up.

It is pretty narrow and nimble, so I could get in and out of parking lots. This particular one isn't off road oriented of course.

[James86004]

As always, it depends on what you want to do with it. My wife & I drool over campers of various sizes. It would be nice to have one of each design and try them all out for a while.

Practically, the soft sides are the way to go for us. If it is really windy or cold or noisy one night, we are going to move. We have spent some pretty cold nights in the Dormobile, well below freezing, but we have a small heater and really good sleeping bags. With the side lift on the Dormobile, you can stand full height anywhere inside. The Land Rover is small enough to get to the places we want to go - I don't think anything much bigger would be able to handle about 1/4 of the trips we do. Our longest trip has been for 10 days at once now, and were reluctant to go home. Of course the weather was perfect. If we were going someplace where the weather is less predictable and we were going to be gone for months, well, the hard sided full height ones start looking better and better.

[Lynn]

Having seen pictures of what a western Sierras black bear can do to a car when in search of food, I think even the hard walls of a Unicat etc. impart a very false sense of security.

Sometimes a false sense of security is important. :) What my wife doesn't know...

Really, hard walls at least allow more time to wake up and formulate a response. Plus would stop smaller critters like packrats, monkeys, lions?, etc.

[ThomD]

Having seen pictures of what a western Sierras black bear can do to a car when in search of food, I think even the hard walls of a Unicat etc. impart a very false sense of security.

And yet, there are places where the only requirement is to keep your food in a hard sided vehicle. I think the degree of caution needed depends a lot on where you are and how bad their bear problem is.

This is one of the reasons that we are currently leaning toward a van (for head/shower/sleeping/bike storage) and an adv trailer (for cooking/food and water storage). That would give us a very flexible setup. We would never be sleeping near the food.

[jagular7]

Great thread and a lot to consider and think about.

I really think the configuration of a camper is really dependent on factors for a camperee(s), geometrics for vehicle/trailer frame, floor layout, accessibility, and weight. You really don't want a camper where you can use it with general vehicles pulling or hauling it. Yah, those larger medium size vehicles can pull their own weight and then some, but they are not the mass campers. They are more of a specialty vehicle.
Of course, the biggest concern is weight. More weight is always a problem. Lighter the better.
Geometric configuration: framing, wall thickness, materials, floor layout along with cabinet layout, sleeping, sitting and cooking quarters/areas, bathroom or not, water tanks or not, accessibility when enroute and when camping, weather concerns when setup and take down, animal intrusion of any kind, openess of the floor plan to be like home(?) (many Americans like the condo setup LOL) and bad weather use conditions (stay inside and play cards, watch tv/video, etc).

Many 'square' campers don't use all the volume space in the camper. Up high and below along the walls are usually an empty space, thus makes the camper interior feel larger and spacious.

Many camper designs include kitchen areas inside. Usually, this is unused by the weekend/3-dayer camper.

Mainly, the type and level of camperee is what really distinguishes the camper design. Mfrs design to fit a market which tells them about the type and level of camperee. Appealing a product to meet those needs can be easy enough as well as difficult.

Me as a camperee
I camp when I Jeep. Usually I have my 2 different sex kids with me. They are old enough now that I require 2 or 3 separate sleeping areas. I would pull the camper with my Jeep Wrangler TJ which is a basic 4cyl/auto. So light weight is what I require. Most of the time I camp a weekend/3-4 day. So anything beyond that is special. I rather cook outside and not inside. In really bad weather, we'll eat at a restaraunt. Most of the time, getting back to camp after wheeling all day, who really wants to 'cook' a meal. Simple and easy food; besides, it's usually dark in the winter when we get back. My storage location requires a maximum width of 66", this gives me 6" each side for space. I have 78" between gate posts.
I've tried several commercial small pop-up campers (haven't tried the Neon yet), but due to other considerations, didn't work out. Same for a recent flip-open top slide in camper on a trailer frame.
My next potential solution is an expandable camper with a floor plan that provides access to bedding when open or closed and storage through an entry door or side access doors. Rear entry is appealing with center or offset doorway. Door would open and have access to cabinets/storage. Above the cabinets could be a sleep area that would be wider with an offset door and ~ 70" long. The floor walk space would lead to a queen size bed with under and side storage. I'd prefer a flip-pac style roof to partial angled open for a standup near the door (hard flip up sides) and flip open all the way for another sleep area with canvas top. The queen side storage can be a ladder to the vaulted sleep area. Gaining that much interior volume room would only be necessary if both kids came. (They do have other weekend activities that conflict.) Cooking can be a kitchen swing out like those of Australian campers or a separate setup like I have now with a table, popup weather cover and kitchen box. Overall height would at least 5' but under 6' closed, but with good ground clearance to take off the beaten path behind the Jeep (14-15" tires). Width near 5.5 feet (66"). Length dependent on storage and floor layout, but guessing 11' or 12'. Weight is dependant on side wall, floor, and cabinet materials, but estimating under 1000#s. Framing is another dependant of weight. If I can integrate enough between camper floor/walls and the trailer frame, the frame can be a structural part of the camper.

The Compact camper (and Compact II) are an all fiberglass camper with a table/queen bed up front, rear side cabinets, pop-up center top, and rear entry. It's exterior dimensions are 10' long, 70" wide, and over 7' tall closed. With proper tires, it could be placed into a normal garage for storage.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d99/jagular7/Camper/Compact/9cb6_3.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d99/jagular7/Camper/Compact/trailerhome2.jpg
Take this layout, make it a little smaller width and height wise, maybe a little longer, then add this as a pop-up roof
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d99/jagular7/Camper/Stuff%20n%20Design/compact2-roof-anim.gif
They no longer make the Compact camper (70-73ish), but Weiscraft's Little Joe (http://www.weiscrafttrailers.com/littlejoe.html) is something similar and little smaller.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d99/jagular7/Camper/Little%20Joe/hmlittlejoe.png http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d99/jagular7/Camper/Little%20Joe/joe2.jpg


Take this camper, though small, its overall height is nearly the same as the truck. I would give it some more width.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d99/jagular7/Camper/Fold%20out/foldupcamper3a.jpg
It also has a tilt up setup.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d99/jagular7/Camper/Fold%20out/foldupcamper3f.jpg
Interior
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d99/jagular7/Camper/Fold%20out/foldupcamper3d.jpg http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d99/jagular7/Camper/Fold%20out/foldupcamper3e.jpg

[ntsqd]

Oh and Thom, great idea about optional insulation for the soft sides on the pop top. Want a job?

John
Thanks John!
I'd be all over such a job, except that the commute is going to be a real bugger. :)

I wasn't really thinking in specific terms about Black Bears, more that a animal of reasonable size and determined to get in won't be stopped by hard walls. So the 'security' of a hard wall is more mental than actual, and I do not discount the value of that but do try to recognize it for what it is.

One of the things that I've noted in the past is that most of the Unicat & similar roofs tend to either be flat or at least look to be flat. Seems to me that while ideal for maximizing space inside for a given roof height that I'd want one with some crown to it. Thinking on it, it's rare to see a roof with crown in it. Those that have this feature tend to be the cheaper American RV's. Is my observation off?

[Mickldo]

Thanks John!
I'd be all over such a job, except that the commute is going to be a real bugger. :)

I wasn't really thinking in specific terms about Black Bears, more that a animal of reasonable size and determined to get in won't be stopped by hard walls. So the 'security' of a hard wall is more mental than actual, and I do not discount the value of that but do try to recognize it for what it is.

One of the things that I've noted in the past is that most of the Unicat & similar roofs tend to either be flat or at least look to be flat. Seems to me that while ideal for maximizing space inside for a given roof height that I'd want one with some crown to it. Thinking on it, it's rare to see a roof with crown in it. Those that have this feature tend to be the cheaper American RV's. Is my observation off?

I am thinking about a bit of a crown in the roof too. In the floor plan I am thinking of most of the human traffic will be down the centre line of the vehicle. Rain will flow off the roof a bit easier rather than puddling and finding possible leak points.

[whatcharterboat]

Thom, By “crown”, I presume you mean a ridge or raised section? While I don't think it's really necessary to have a crown in terms of water runoff,(how often is the vehicle roof perfectly level anyway?) sure it will help to prevent water pooling but the best benefit of a "crown” is surely the extra strength it provides (say if you have to go up on the roof).

Almost all road based RV/ motorhomes here are built from flat composite panel which is easy to fabricate but should be reinforced in critical areas. The rule with composite construction is that more shape/grooves/ridges/etc you strategically incorporate into a panel the stronger it will be. So yeah you're right. Even adding a ridge down the centre will be a good thing to do as far as strength goes but may not be easy to do and that's more the reason that it's not so common.

This has been a great thread. I really haven't worked on many pop-tops before. When I worked for an off road caravan manufacturer some years back, we only did 2 and that was only because the owners wanted to store the vans in their garage at home when not in use. Now that we are developing our own “production” expedition pop top I’m trying to gain as much info as I can. We did one at Warrior on an FG not so long ago that was quite successful. It was a soft sided type with a one piece roof that was raised AND lowered by 4 double activating air-rams, so that you just flicked a valve and the roof lifted or pulled down hard. As long as everything is adjusted correctly (via a regulator) you don’t really have to touch it during setup. A bungi cord takes care of the sides as the roof comes down.

There was enough room to get around with the roof down and if it was really cold or windy you could drop the roof with the flick of the valve and go to sleep as snug as a bug in a rug. We cut the back out of the cab for easy access as we do with our normal motorhomes and I don’t think we could have done this with a hard sided top as it would have intersected the sock between the cab and the body.

As for the shower/toilet cubicle, the top half of the walls were attached to the roof and a curtain was used there instead of a door. Also there was overhead lockers attached to the ceiling and PhotoVoltaic Laminates on the roof. The best thing about soft sided pop tops is the ventilation that is possible. If you have a small package like this you are hardly going to have it air conditioned so this is really important especially here living on the driest continent.

Protection from bears are another story. Actually is there any chance of posting those pics of what a bear can do to a camper when looking for food????? I know we have most of the top 10 deadliest snakes and some seriously deadly spiders and other nasties but nothing like big cats and bears. Oh except for crocs but I couldn’t see one of them getting into anything more complicated than a tent. BTW a guy was taken by a big croc today in Cooktown.

Hey. Just thought of something. A good case for the “crown in the roof”. We have built a few 20 seat 4wd buses for the Aboriginal communities up on Cape York. They used to run Land Cruisers but they wanted to upgrade to something bigger. 2 of us flew up to Cairns to check on a suspicious “roof leak???” The dealer in Cairns told us that they used to drive the bus to down to the creek to go fishing. OK. We didn’t realize this meant parking next to the creek and the entire crew standing on the roof to keep safe from the crocs while they fished. You can imagine what the old Land Cruiser roofs looked like after a few fishing trips.

There is still so many things that could be talked about here. Roof racks, weight loadings, solar panel attachments, penetrations, access ladders, lifting mechanisms for pop tops, etc, etc,

Thanks Chip. Again, great thread.

Some pics of a pop top interior showing the interior shower/ toilet and one of the bigger motorhomes. Roof > body follows the cab profile, rounded corners everywhere, protection from tree branches for awnings and satellite dish, PVL’s, ladder access, light weight rack for kayaks,canoes etc, fan/hatches 40mm foam insulation, white colour, low CoG, dual awnings, integrated air inlet

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b8d711b3127ccec568f842bb2300000040O00EcMWrVmzZMg e3nwI/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D315/ry%3D315/

Arghh!! Could someone please recommend a photo sharing site other that Picassa or Shutterfly. Pics will have too wait.

[ThomD]

I could not find any bear photos that were impressive, but the Park Service has this nice video:

Bear and food in Yoesmite (http://mms.nps.gov/ram/pwr/fdvideo.mov)

We were up there a couple of years ago, taking sunrise photos. A bear wondered by and my wife followed it into the parking lot (at a safe distance). It went right to a car and put its paws on a door looking for food. My wife scared it off by throwing some rocks near (not at) it. I would have taken some good photos, but she doesn't think like that. Turns out the morons who owned the car had a banana on the seat and the window open an inch. If my wife had not been there, the bear would have been snacking. And that's a fine up to $5,000.

My wife was pretty cool around the bear until she realized that there were two cubs somewhere behind her and mama was in front of her. She beat a hasty retreat at that point.

[ntsqd]

Yes, by "crown" I meant some sort of arch in the roof. Be it a single ridge line ala house construction, a double ridge line ala Rob Gray's Wotz II, or a single very large radius curve (what I was picturing in my mind while I was typing).

The post-bear pictures that I saw were posted on a bulletin board at the campground that I stayed in at Yosemite's main valley. Picture a normal passenger car that had its rear door "opened" with what looked like a can opener the size of a crow/demo prybar. The whole window frame (in this case a rather substantial one of a late model 'aero' vehicle) had been peeled back and bent out of the way.
Say that you had one of these:
http://www.steritool.com/images/product/10294.jpg
and didn't care about the car, but wanted inside. That's about what it looked like. Below is not the picture, but it's close enough.

http://facultyfiles.deanza.edu/images/donahuemary/beardamagetocar2.jpg

[whatcharterboat]

Yes, by "crown" I meant some sort of arch in the roof. Be it a single ridge line ala house construction, a double ridge line ala Rob Gray's Wotz II, or a single very large radius curve (what I was picturing in my mind while I was typing).

The post-bear pictures that I saw were posted on a bulletin board at the campground that I stayed in at Yosemite's main valley.

Thom,I grew up watching Yogi and Boo Boo. How deluded was I? The bears in that video look so mean. I couldn't drive my car over there. Haven't seen the floor for trash in month's. The bears would tear my little Honda apart looking for chips and choclate bars.

As for the crown, We always do it cause when we build a bus we have to supply "rollover" test data to our transport authorities and when we did our testing you could really see how much the ridge/crown added strength to the overall design. It's not very pronounced but naturally we use this feature on the motorhomes as well.

John

[whatcharterboat]

Hey. These were the pics from before. Am trying a new photo host site. So this is a test. Really hope my pic problems are now behind me.

BTW I’m certainly not saying these designs are the ultimate or they are any better than other setups, it’s just how we have done things in the past and thought the pics fitted into the thread.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3255/2904519078_cc45feeefc.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3218/2904518038_2445a15557.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3196/2903676455_258c65b581.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3073/2903676013_a1749df15f.jpg?v=0

[whatcharterboat]

I'm almost ready to give up. Thanks for bearing with me. Just click on those links to view for now.

[ThomD]

How is this?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3255/2904519078_cc45feeefc.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3218/2904518038_2445a15557.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3196/2903676455_258c65b581.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3073/2903676013_a1749df15f.jpg

I altered the links to remove the part after ".jpg"

[whatcharterboat]

ThomD
How is this?

Awesome. But I'm sure life wasn't meant to be this hard. Thanks for the help. I just tried a new site and those links came from FLIKR.

[4Rescue]

Thom, By “crown”, I presume you mean a ridge or raised section? While I don't think it's really necessary to have a crown in terms of water runoff,(how often is the vehicle roof perfectly level anyway?) sure it will help to prevent water pooling but the best benefit of a "crown” is surely the extra strength it provides (say if you have to go up on the roof).

Dude... you live in Australia, Noosa to boot, what you don't know about Rain I could write a book about eh!!! Just fooling with ya :friday:

Just ribbin ya, but seriously, if you'd ever been in a good ol NW winter rain storm, you'd understand what I mean. Water finds it's way into almost everything. If it can carve the Grand Canyon it can get in your camper, and will gaurenteed.

Cheers

Dave

[whatcharterboat]

Hi Dave It's actually pouring right now.

If there is any way we can eliminate a roof penetration we will. The least holes in the roof the better. When we build a camper or bus we will jump on the roof with a fire hose and let it rip. Everything will test OK. Then park it on a slightly different angle and possibly find a leak. Good non-hardening flexible sealer is always the answer and sure the less the water has a chance to pool the better.

Our new bodies are one piece so there are no seams or joins in the panels and we try and get away with only one hole on top and thats for the solar panel wiring and that's all. The panels are peel'n'stick type and all our vents go out the side. So far so good.

Dave have you been to Noosa before? When you live here you wonder why they call it the Sunshine Coast. The last 18mths have been the wettest I can remember. All the concrete footpaths and street gutters are green with algae. I'm going "desert" next big holiday. The big drought of the last 10 years has well and truly broken around here.

Regards John

[4Rescue]

Hi Dave It's actually pouring right now.

If there is any way we can eliminate a roof penetration we will. The least holes in the roof the better. When we build a camper or bus we will jump on the roof with a fire hose and let it rip. Everything will test OK. Then park it on a slightly different angle and possibly find a leak. Good non-hardening flexible sealer is always the answer and sure the less the water has a chance to pool the better.

Our new bodies are one piece so there are no seams or joins in the panels and we try and get away with only one hole on top and thats for the solar panel wiring and that's all. The panels are peel'n'stick type and all our vents go out the side. So far so good.

Dave have you been to Noosa before? When you live here you wonder why they call it the Sunshine Coast. The last 18mths have been the wettest I can remember. All the concrete footpaths and street gutters are green with algae. I'm going "desert" next big holiday. The big drought of the last 10 years has well and truly broken around here.

Regards JohnHow ya goin John,

yeah, I lived out in Bilo in QLD on a cattle station for quite some time, and I met a bunch of guy's who run a Surf Tour company out of Sydney. I surfed/coached with them for a couple months so we hit the whole surfable coast, Noosa, Delicate knobby etc all the way to Byron (what a trip that town is eh).

I know it rains there mate, just ribbin ya, I woke up on the station one day with a bloody lake/river out my front step. Every other week it was 45-50c and killing me.

I'm loving what you guy's are building on those FG platforms, and personaly my fav is the one (I belive) you designed for Kym? Perfect dimensions for really wheeling it and enough room to live. Worst part about all these pics is now I want to move back ;)

Cheers

Dave

[whatcharterboat]

How ya goin John

Dave, I can see you've picked up a little bit of the Occa accent but it's more like "owyagoin, maate?". Then I'd reply with "arwrite, owyuugoin?" Hahahah.


Byron (what a trip that town is eh).
Should have seen it in the '70s. Or should I say before Paul Hogan (aka Crocodile Dundee) bought it up. When was your trip anyway?



I woke up on the station one day with a bloody lake/river out my front step. Every other week it was 45-50c and killing me.
I always tell OS visitors that are considering travelling Aus to carefully draft their itinerary around the seasons. Sounds like you know first hand about what I mean.


I'm loving what you guy's are building on those FG platforms, and personaly my fav is the one (I belive) you designed for Kym?

We are just about to release our new pop top. There is one a similiar size to the one you mentioned and another with a couple of feet added to the front of it. The long one has a huge locker going right accross the front with a door on either side and yes, I checked >> It's perfect for a couple of surfboards up to about 7'2".

The short pop top body will go on a SWB FG like the other one or on to a standard WB with room for a double trailbike/quadbike rack on the back and the long pop will go on a standard wheel base FG or Isuzu NPS just nicely. I want to post the first pics on ExPo if its OK with the boss. He just wants to wait till it's a little closer to completion. Maybe a month away but definitely before Xmas. It has a Learjet style door which has required a lot of development but it 'll be worth it in the end.

(so this isn't a complete hi jack. Apologies.) The roof will be very similar to the one you liked. Only one penetration for the solar and the same photovoltaic laminates (PVL's). Also the roof won't be pneumatic lift this time> probably going to go with the electrically powered scissors that we are trying to develop. Also looking at welded seams instead of stitched for the soft sides. The soft sides are perfect for Aus but maybe a hard sided pop top roof for RTW trucks or export models???? There has certainly been some very valid comments in this thread.

Anyway Dave, if you liked that other pop top you'll flip over the new ones. Tons of new ideas. I think there is some old pop top "build" pics in the unimog forum under "404camper" if you're interested.


Worst part about all these pics is now I want to move back .

Also included my favourite campsite pics. Our site is the pop top VW/blue tarp/white Ford Falcon in the foreground. The surf out the back is about 6' but the break will hold 15. The second pic is easy triple overhead. So I’ll see you next week then. LOL

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b8d732b3127ccec54fe95ba28d00000040O00EcMWrVmzZMg e3nwI/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D480/ry%3D320/

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b8d732b3127ccec54f60cbe2c100000040O00EcMWrVmzZMg e3nwI/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D480/ry%3D320/

[haven]

"We are just about to release our new pop top...I want to post the first pics on ExPo if its OK with the boss."

Yes, please! :chowtime:

[haven]

I think whatcharterboat is referring to the new All Terrain Warriors "Scout" model. No photos yet, but the floorplans are available online here:
http://www.allterrainwarriors.com.au/images/stories/WarriorScoutPlans.pdf

Chip Haven

[whatcharterboat]

I think whatcharterboat is referring to the new All Terrain Warriors "Scout" model. No photos yet, but the floorplans are available online here:

Hi Chip. How ya going?

I'll have to get the boss to update that page on the website. Long story but some of the specs maybe different and it has a better name. I reckon it does anyway.

Promise I'll keep you posted.

[Bogo]

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d99/jagular7/Camper/Stuff%20n%20Design/compact2-roof-anim.gif

I like! I can do that one easily and get a couple foot additional height only when I need it. Lifting can be done with a properly positioned air ram. I had thought of a similar design that lifted straight up and had sides that accordioned out. Then a solid panel would be folded down in the front and rear to lock it up.

[Loras BR]

Nice topic!

I would like to know if anybody has an idea of how I could seal the water ingress in the inferior part of the pop up?

I'm building a pop up to fit my Defender 110. Will use rigid "walls", very similar project to this one of Ex-tec.

I need some advice about how make the seal of the side walls with the base of the pop up (where all the water of the rain get to).

Thanks.

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[dwh]

If Mike Van Pelt asked for this thread, them I'm going to narrow my focus and assume that we're talking about a GXV truck. :)

This:

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/48351-out-with-the-old-in-with-the-new


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I like that it's a hard-side. If you're going to build a lifting roof from scratch, might as well go with a hard-side. Also GXV has already got the engineering done, for their Pangea model, and the overall construction is also right up GXV's alley.

With the top down, it's still usable. Inside height with the top down is 5', which is roughly the same as a full-size conventional van with a 6" or so raised roof. Ala Roadtrek:

108392

So, even with the top down, it's still a very usable space. Even the head can be used as long as you don't mind sitting down to use it. The shower...probably not with the top down, unless it's a full wet bath and again, you don't mind sitting to use it.


For stealth and security, I like that with the top down, the windows disappear. For security, what I don't like, is that with the top down, the windows disappear. :D If I were sleeping in a place where I'd want the top down for security, then that's probably exactly where I'd want the ability to see what's going on outside. Shouldn't be a big deal though to rig blind spot cameras. The truck almost certainly needs a backup cam anyway. Might as well just go whole hog and add a 4th cam to see what's going on in front (put it up high with a fisheye lens, and you might also be able to use it to see if you are going to make it under that low-hanging obstacle).

With the top down, it doesn't really look like a camper, except for the hatches and that big entry door. I think those could be camouflaged to make the truck resemble a work truck. For weekending, probably not needed, but for long term, long distance use it might be a good idea.


Crawl through...probably not. Looking at the first pic in this post, it appears that there *might* be enough space under the roof to make a crawl though without the boot interfering with the roof...but it would certainly be tight. One way around that would be a gangway/mudroom between the cab and cabin, with a drop-side stairway.

That would also allow the door to be moved to the front, which has two main drawbacks: First, the door has to be a two-piece ala Alaskan. But that's not a big deal - in fact, it's good for ventilation by leaving the top part open, and besides Stephen Stewart recommends a dutch door anyway for security reasons. The other (possibly big deal) drawback is you lose 3' or so of "living space". You do regain part of the living space though by not having a side door, and the port side of the mudroom could be a 3' wide x 2' deep x 5' high storage/utility box, possibly with the generator and/or batteries in the bottom, though I'd rather have the batteries down between the frame rails.


The truck *might* fit in a container. If not, then the use of container wheels would probably be enough to get the job done. If not, then the camper box in the first pic is removable. It sits on a flatbed. I like the idea of a removable camper box. It doesn't have to sit on a flatbed, but I think taking remove-ability into the initial engineering is a good idea. I particularly like the way Darrin Fink does it, which I believe he does by incorporating 2" receivers into the frame of the camper box and using standard camper jacks:

108382

Add some receivers in the frame pointing down, then lift the box, drive the truck out, stick wheels in the bottom receivers, drop it down on its wheels and pull the jacks out of the sides. Then use the truck to shove it into the container. Lash it down, then drive the truck in right after it, ala that 6x6 Unicat Mog.



I think the lifting mechanism is important as well. There are a lot of different ways to do it, from Alaskan's hydraulics to the 4 electric screws jacks used in the camper in the first pic (which, using a 4 switch controller, allows the owner to tilt the roof a bit this way and that to direct rain runoff where he wants it), to a recent post by whalecharterboat (All Terrain Warriors) describing a setup with 4 pneumatic power up/down rams and equalizing valves. The (gorgeous) Bullet XV uses hydraulics, with a system of cables and pulleys (maylines) to keep everything synced:

http://bulletxv.wordpress.com/2009/01/28/the-lift-system/

Personally, if I was building my own from scratch, I'd go with a screw jack system similar to this:

108383

Though, of course, it would be much less heavy duty and I'd use "traveling nut" jacks rather than "traveling screw" jacks, but you see what I mean. The driveshafts and 90 degree transmissions could be incorporated into the camper frame, the roof attached to the traveling nuts, and, it could even have a hand crank for use in a pinch. (And of course the motor doesn't have to be in the center...I'd likely stick it on the end of one leg of the "U" and delete the center transmission.)

There are several advantages, such as the roof goes up square regardless of uneven loading, even thin light duty screw jacks can lift a lot (roof + stuff), it stays where it's put (you could even drive with the roof up if you had to), it isn't going to leak and need new seals, it doesn't require locking pins to prevent creeping and when the roof is down, it's down "and locked". [EDIT: And...it's quiet.]

Also, it's mechanically pretty simple and bulletproof (yea, that was a pun about the maylines :D ).

[EDIT AGAIN: Also, forgot to mention: Since it's a mechanically synced system, and the roof is always perfectly square to the bottom box - two-piece overlapping interior partition walls are not a problem. I.e., you can have a head with walls and a door instead of just a curtain.]




A box like that could be mounted on a brand new Fuso FG, or on a refurbed surplus Mog (smaller Mogs, like maybe the commonly available 1300) or several other platforms.
I think GXV could probably sell a few...especially if they could do it at 1/4 - 1/2 the price of a bigger rig.

[Verkstad]

I saw one homebrew up/down system consisting of a bicycle chain running about the perimeter of the camper turning the 4 jackscrews.

Quite simple and all,
The chain was fitted into a chase that went along the baseboards and across the door threshold, the drive motor was located in a rear corner adjacent to one of the jackscrews. It was not built with any limit switches, It was dependant of the operator to realise when the motor was lugged to switch it off.

I sort of like it over hydros and it eliminated the need for a 4 port flow divider what are real expensive...

[mattressstx]

Alright...interesting post. I like the way you have exemplify each and every thing and part. I would like to know which part do you want to prefer??? and why??? Which is more beneficial among all???

[Iain_U1250]

I did a lot of thinking about roof options, and ended up with a full height solid roof, with the corners cut off.

I looked at the pros and cons of each of the three major roof types:

Pop up - soft sides.( either Earthcruiser style or tilting style)
Good
Lower profile - may fit in a container ( touch and go with a Unimog, especially with a high roof or roof rack) Less wind resistance, better clearance under bridges.
Bad
Soft sided/pop up campers may be fine for weekend or a few weeks, but when it comes to months and all sort of weather conditions, noise and heat insulation. Probably more weight required for the frame of the truck as there is no cross bracing so will need a stronger structure. Raising and lowering would be a bit of a pain each stop unless it was very easy, then the added complication of jacks etc.

Pop up - hard sides ( Alaskan or similar)
Good
Same as the soft sided pop up, but with extra noise and sound insulation, better security if the top drops down over the windows.

Bad
Complicated, fairly heavy, a real problem if it gets stuck.

Full height

Good - simple, easy to build, best structural integrity, most convenient for camping - no set-up required. Can be engineered to take occupants in the back. Can have support more "stuff" and other permanent things on the roof if required.

Bad - height - must be under 3.5m for the low bridges in Eastern Europe, extra wind resistance, overhangs and trees could be a problem, won't fit in a container unless the back is taken off,


Full height with chamfered sides.

Good - still relatively simple, easy to build, even better structural integrity, most convenient for camping - no set-up required. Can be engineered to take occupants in the back. Can have still have lots of "stuff" and other permanent things on the roof if required. Chamfers lower the risk of branches hitting the edges - Unimog ambulances and other military vehicles seem to always have this feature, visually not so imposing when standing next to it.

Bad - As per the full height camper, must be under 3.5m for the low bridges in Eastern Europe, extra wind resistance, overhangs and trees could still be a problem, won't fit in a container unless the back is taken off, adds some complication to the frame, less interior volume and high level storage.


In the end, all thing consider this is what we went with - full height with chamfered corners.



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[dwh]

Alright...interesting post. I like the way you have exemplify each and every thing and part. I would like to know which part do you want to prefer??? and why??? Which is more beneficial among all???

Eh? You talkin' to me? You talkin' to me? There's no one else here, you must be talkin' to me!

114784

:D


I would say the most important thing to me is the ability to use the camper, even with the top down.

If you pull over for a quick stop, which happens a lot, it would be nice to just hop in the back without having to deploy the roof. Grab a cup of coffee, a snack, use the head and off you go, back on the road.

Also, if you need to sleep in a non-secure area, you can leave the top down for both stealth and security, and still use the camper and get some sleep.

[dwh]

I did a lot of thinking about roof options, and ended up with a full height solid roof, with the corners cut off...

...Full height with chamfered sides.

Good - still relatively simple, easy to build, even better structural integrity, most convenient for camping - no set-up required. Can be engineered to take occupants in the back. Can have still have lots of "stuff" and other permanent things on the roof if required. Chamfers lower the risk of branches hitting the edges - Unimog ambulances and other military vehicles seem to always have this feature, visually not so imposing when standing next to it.


Another "good" for the chamfer design is overall width when off-camber:

114789

[grizzlyj]

Nice thread :)

Since, for example, an Alaskan will be tucked up and protected behind the cab, and its design means it can't really be made to be impact proof from branches etc, I wonder if a hard side pop-top will generally be lighter than a similarly sized hard sider?

I know there are a lot of variables, but if I was looking at doing what Iain is doing I know it will be in harms way and would want it to be fairly tree proof. If an Alaskan ended up entirely behind the cab it wouldn't need to be as tough, so could be lighter?

With a Mog you could also have the bed mounted on an X-frame, so the mechanism to allow for a 3-way tipper would make the back easy to forklift off and on for sliding in a container. Even without that, the Mog flatbed mount is only ten bolts I think, realignment to refit might be a bit tricky but you wouldn't be doing it that often! Then any Mog as long as it doesn't have a high roof cab will (I'm told!) fit in a hi-cube container (wheels off, maybe front mud guards and wheel studs too, for the bigger ones).

I'm not convinced that a soft sided camper is any better than a tent! And since its above the vehicle and sitting up in the wind surely its worse?!?

Jason

:)

[Greg]

Some interesting designs of folding trailers (folding caravans) from Europe:

Gobur caravan and Pennine caravan are both popup roof designs with four hard sides
see trade show video on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYbpTW3gkYk&feature=related
http://www.goburcaravans.co.uk/carousel-folding-caravans/how-they-work/

Riva folding caravan has soft sides but is different because of the soft side material. They advertise this material has insulation quality but more important can be stored wet indefinitely until ready to go camping again.
youtube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gguRitxY23E&feature=related
home page http://www.rivadandysales.co.uk/