The most expensive overlander?! [Archive]

gjackson

10-13-2005, 04:04 AM

Scott,

I have to disagree that these trucks are restricted to improved surfaces. The one you have a pic of is a Unimog, and they are very impressive off road. Sure, you can't tip them like you can an SUV, but a Mog could do White Rim with no worries and so could one of those MANs from Unicat. I've seen both 6x6 and 4x4 Mogs in the Sahara where roads aren't and they handle everything out there with ease. Mainly because clearence is no problem at all and they are geared six ways to Sunday. You certainly get into trouble where roads are narrow and trees are close to the track, because they can be a beast to move around. They use 4x4 MANs in the truck class of the Paris Dakar as well as support vehicles for that race. Check out some of the vids on the unicat site. Not real rock crawling, but some good stuff all the same.

The big advantage of the forward control (cab over) is the increased payload space. You sit over the engine and everything behind can be used for load. That is why Land Rover made the 101FC for the British military and it makes a very good overlander. Ditto with the Pinzgauer. Comfort is probably where you loose the most, being right over the front wheels. As Wil said, they can make a rough ride. Again check out the vids from Unicat -- you can see that the MANs and Renaults have a suspended cab, most likely on air shocks, and given that big rubber and the twisty frame, the ride might not be so bad. But, since no ones ever let me drive one I can't say for sure!

cheers
Graham
www.africaoverland.org

Scott Brady

10-13-2005, 04:12 AM

Graham,

I should have been more specific.

I was refering to the large Unicats. The larger vehicles do not have the tree clearance or are they narrow enough to run the shelf roads. I have also been on several swithbacks that would be impossible to negotiate in a vehicle that size.

A Unimog is an incredible performer... That is why I picked that one pictured above. Small enough for tight, rugged tracks. :victory:

flyingwil

10-13-2005, 04:36 AM

gjackson

10-13-2005, 04:46 AM

Scott,

Sorry, didn't mean to imply that you didn't know it was a Mog. Just had to be sure. ;-) But, by the same token, I think you may be surprised at what those MANs can do. Don't forget that a lot of the tall part is open space and that most of the weight is pretty low. I only speak from having seen them in action and being very impressed myself.

. . .if only I could get one big enough to park my Defender in the back of!

cheers

Graham

Shurik

11-03-2006, 03:48 AM

I don't know about cost, but check this thing out!
http://www.safarirv4sale.com/Index_files/Photos.htm

Blair G

11-03-2006, 03:36 PM

After watching one of the videos it looks like the MAN is a bit on the tippy side. I would also be concernerd about off camber driving in some situation with this vehicle. Looks rather impressive though for its size. I think in this picture it might be pushing it limits if the driver took the other line to the right of the vehicle (Left in the picture) IMO.

http://www.unicat.net/img/Galerie-EX63-HD.2-560.jpg

I would feel much more secure and safe in a vehicle not quite as massive as this, thus a reas I chose a Taco as my base to build up on.
http://pics.rickbeatty.com/albums/summertown-march05/summertown30.sized.jpg

I also think you have to take into consideration the original target audiance of Unicat. Rich EU's and Saudis. Also, the areas in which their audiance tend to travel seems to include large roads and wide open spaces.
If you have ever talked to the people who use their trucks, they understand that the size of their vehicles limit their travels. However, in order to see what they miss, they find other ways. My friends who are in Peru with their Unicat have a motorcycle that lowers from the back of the truck. Pretty cool setup. If that does not work they hire a helicopter or a smaller 4x4 and use the truck as a base camp. Most are in a different league.
The gadget factor on Unicats are impressive. Anything you want you can have. When you pay that much it makes sense. My 110 lacks marble in the bathroom and I doubt your Taco has a seperate climate controlled champagne celler.
Personally, I don't miss it.
Blair

haven

11-07-2006, 11:05 PM

Here's my vote for the "cost is no object" overland vehicle:
Maximog, a custom Unimog with even more custom trailer.

http://www.maximog.com/images/sublevel/trailer_mog_big.jpg

The trailer has the same suspension as the truck, with 25 inches
of ground clearance. Each wheel has a hydraulic motor, so when
attached to the truck's hydraulic PTO, the trailer can help power
the vehicle forward.

(Yes, the truck's running boards retract when the vehicle is in motion.)

Read more about this project at http://www.maximog.com

Chip Haven

Doin_It

11-07-2006, 11:41 PM

Yea I remember reading about the Maxi when it was built a couple of years ago Chip. Very neat on the whole trailer idea. I remember thinking though, try and get that puppy accross some borders in Africa or South America and the amount of talking you'd have to do to prove you aren't CIA or FBI etc. etc. with all of the "Inspector Gadget" stuff on board.

Nullifier

11-08-2006, 01:15 AM

interesting way to carry extra fuel:exclaim:

adventureduo

01-03-2007, 11:31 PM

:drool: Ultimate desert rigs. I'd take one in a heartbeat!

skysix

04-11-2009, 06:51 PM

After watching one of the videos it looks like the MAN is a bit on the tippy side. I would also be concernerd about off camber driving in some situation with this vehicle. Looks rather impressive though for its size. I think in this picture it might be pushing it limits if the driver took the other line to the right of the vehicle (Left in the picture) IMO.

http://www.unicat.net/img/Galerie-EX63-HD.2-560.jpg

I would feel much more secure and safe in a vehicle not quite as massive as this, thus a reas I chose a Taco as my base to build up on.
http://pics.rickbeatty.com/albums/summertown-march05/summertown30.sized.jpg

Not sure I agree - here's a pic of a Unicat on an offcamber switchback,

http://www.unicat.net/img/MD48-MANLE18.280Doka.3-560.jpg

and another showing the testing before sale. Having all the water/waste tanks and batteries/generator etc low is essential.

http://www.unicat.net/img/UM12FHAS.5-560.jpg

Note the lack of a safety strap to prevent rolling off the tilt table - they must have been pretty confident it would pass - given that it is a customers undelivered / unpaidfor rig!

Tree

04-12-2009, 12:59 AM

^^^^

WOW that tilt is crazy!

1speed

04-12-2009, 01:09 AM

http://www.unicat.net/img/UM12FHAS.5-560.jpg

Note the lack of a safety strap to prevent rolling off the tilt table - they must have been pretty confident it would pass - given that it is a customers undelivered / unpaidfor rig!

PLEASE tell me that is either photoshopped or secured somewhere we can't see! :eek: That's just crazy!

DiploStrat

04-12-2009, 08:59 AM

To harp on a favorite theme of mine: "Overlanding" ain't "Off Roading."

Most Americans are used to a world of great roads where you really have to look for a trail and then they want the biggest, meanest trail they can find. Driving across Africa is not like that. There are very few places you want to go that are not served by big Mercedes trucks. (In fact, that is one reason so many roads are a mess!)

For the long range overlander, especially those of us with a few kilometers on our tails, driving and living comfort are the goal. I am tired of squat toilets and weeks without a shower. (Sadly, that isn't going to change any time soon.) So if you want a heated/cooled kitchen/bedroom, with a bath, AND you want to take it across Africa, you will end up with a bigger truck.

If you want to drive the Rubicon and sleep in a tent, then you want a smaller truck.

Much of this conversation is apples and oranges.

jesusgatos

04-12-2009, 08:23 PM

http://www.unicat.net/img/UM12FHAS.5-560.jpg

Note the lack of a safety strap to prevent rolling off the tilt table - they must have been pretty confident it would pass - given that it is a customers undelivered / unpaidfor rig!
We can't see whether it's attached to the vehicle or not, but there's some type of hoist that's clearly visible in that picture.

whatcharterboat

04-13-2009, 01:54 AM

Hi Guys, I don't normally stick my nose in here, but to add my .50cents in defence of cabovers, I can say that the MANs that are used here in Oz are definitely not slow or uncomfortable. The professional drivers that run them in outback tour companies complain of the opposite. You don't often hear this, but some of the owners say that they are TOO comfortable and as a result, the drivers tend to over drive them for the conditions.

Massive tyres, air suspension, airbag mounted cab and air seats tend to give that floating sensation. Believe me, without even blinking, they will take potholes and bumps that would severely slow mere mortal Lancruisers, etc.

BTW The MAN I'm working on at the moment has a pendant next to the drivers seat that can quickly adjust air pressure to each corner of the suspension so I suppose that would mean that you could (to a degree) compensate for off camber conditions quickly and effectively. They are still not a Mog by any means, but for the expedition travel that Diplostrat is describing I think they're one of the best options. Certainly in the 10 to 15 ton GVM class anyway.

Tree

04-13-2009, 02:22 AM

John that rig sounds bad***!

I wish we had more cabovers in United States and Canada. :costumed-smiley-007

IMO cabover > conventional in any condition...

whatcharterboat

04-13-2009, 02:32 AM

Hi Tree. Yeah, my comments were in reference to
I am sure these designers have gone to great lengths to comfort the drivers and secure the goods inside the vehicle, however with my past experience in cab overs on roads, i would be rather hessitant to purchase one for expedition travel. Many are slower, however some to have some great advantages that might outweigh other vehicles in comparision.

but I'm sure this wasn't in reference to any modern cabovers though.

whatcharterboat

04-13-2009, 02:48 AM

And this one.

I have also found that many of these solutions must travel at a painfully slow pace to keep the occupants from rebelling, or the cabinetry in place (the cab overs come to mind).

Fred, you once said to me that African travel was very similar to what we experience here in Oz and that it is very different to the US and Europe. It must be the case, as this is a complete reversal of what I know to be true. Especially in sand, heavy corrugations, and long distances in deserts. The longer wheel bases, larger wheel diameters, air suspension, air seating, big cabins, improved vision, pushbutton control everything, etc, etc, etc. wins out everytime. For comfort and making good time.

charlieaarons

04-13-2009, 04:50 AM

DiploStrat

04-13-2009, 11:04 AM

There are very few limitations about how large an overlander can be.

Nice pictures of Mali, taken on a Rotel tour. (Nice pictures of the Rotel as well.) http://www.pbase.com/bmcmorrow/mali

Not going to use this for canyon crawling in North America, but there is a dirty secret to overlanding - most overlanders never stay in a country long enough to find the secondary roads, let alone the trails. Hence my snort that most overlanders are more interested in tracing a line on their blog than they are about seeing anything.

oka boy

04-14-2009, 12:48 PM

Hi all,in my opinion the cab over ride is related to the type of suspension you are riding on,i drive an Australian made OKA which is a cab over with quite long leaf springs and the ride is very smooth,much better than Canter or Isuzu 300,as to the size,about six years ago I came across an Austrian couple at the start of The Canning sock route,this track runs for 1000 mls from Wiluna to Halls Creek in Western Australia with a wide variaty of terrains they were driving an MAN kat air cooled V8 diesel,they cruised over the sand dunes with ease,when we got to the narrow stony ground the poor guy started to destroy tyres this was due to just about every other 4x4 was a Toyota and all the stones displaced by the narrower 4x4 were loose on the sides for him to collect,this still a common problem over areas frequented by japanese 4x4 which are a fair bit narrower than American 4x4,a French couple travelled behind us with a Bremach Brick which is similar in width to a Land cruiser without a single puncture.

XXXpedition

04-16-2009, 01:00 PM

"The whole vehicle is entirely hand-made. It has absolutely nothing to do with camping: we used superb materials and expertise from yacht-building and aircraft-building.
it has absolutely nothing to do with camping....
hmmm - how true!

scotts comment about the size is a good argument, too - but then again, many trails i've been on anything bigger than a common SUV-sized 4x4 wouldn't work.

so i think i stick to my rig ------------(right now - and for a while)

XXXpedition

04-16-2009, 01:03 PM

Each wheel has a hydraulic motor, so when
attached to the truck's hydraulic PTO, the trailer can help power
the vehicle forward.
and as far as i know the trailer can be driven seperately from the truck...

egn

05-12-2009, 08:40 AM

Just a few cents from a an owner of a similar rig:

As far as I can see, in this thread are three different vehicles mixed up.

The thread starts with the desert challenger. This vehicle is based on a wide MAN chassis also used for airport fire brigades and missile transporters. It is not cab over, it is cab in front. The engine is behind the drivers cabin. The original military truck has very high capabilities, but this vehicle is limited, because of very high weight. But it will work fine an comfortable on very bad roads and tracks with relatively hard surface. Of course, because of the size, roads have to be wide enough. But as the dessert challenger was build for the desert, this shouldn't be a problem. The build is really top, just like one of the mega yachts. My wife and me had the chance to take a look inside and enjoyed it very much. I have posted more infos and references about this truck here (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11614&highlight=MAN+6x6&page=2). It is a bit sad, that the vehicle wasn't used very much so far. As far as I know it is several year here in Germany. May be, the Sheik saw that it is not so easy to drive in a sandy dessert with this.

I own a much smaller version of the desert challenger, with smaller track and lighter. The speed you can go offroad and on unpaved tracks is really high without getting to uncomfortable. Please keep in mind that the term KAT I is a definition of the German military and means: Vehicle that is able to follow tanks offroad. This is the highest category for wheeled offroad vehicles of German army. As was mentioned already, this type of vehicles is used as support vehicles an a lot of offroad events world wide. They even ran at the Dakar Rallye until the organizers decided that they don't want vehicles based on military technology in the primary competition. But as support vehicles they are still fine. So my own experience on unpaved roads and offroad in Russia was, that where we could do easily 50+ mph, most other vehicles had to slow down considerably. The large tyres and the coil spring suspension take away most of the bumps. One factor that also plays an important role here is the absolutely stiff frame. There is no twisting and bending, all suspension is done by the wheels, coils and shocks.

To get some impression about what this trucks can do, please have a look at the Dresden-Breslau videos (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=Dresden+Breslau&aq=f). Or just search there with "MAN KAT". You can find tons of videos. :truck:

Now we come to the MANs used by Unicat. Most of them are based on the civil versions LE220, TGM, TGA. They are certainly robust trucks, but they weren't designed for heavy offroad use. They have a bending/twisting frame and leaf springs. This is fine for occasional offroad use at slow speed, typical found in construction. But if you go mostly on rough unpaved tracks and offroad, then you will earlier or later find the limit of this construction, because something will break. They are really comfortably to drive, and this cause the drivers to go faster than they should, as was mentioned already. If you go slower, no problem.

Yes, all this large vehicles cannot go where some smaller ones can go. But you always have to make compromises. Depending on you personal preferences where you want to go, you select your vehicle. When this issue comes up my personal wording is always, that even with this restrictions, I am not able to visit all the nice places I can go to, in my lifetime. So what?

Regarding tipping, most of this vehicles build with reinforced fiberglass have a low center of gravity. The cabin weights nothing compared to the vehicle frame. The military specification for the MAN KAT talks about a valid tilt of about 17 degrees with the full military load on the platform. The tip over point is much higher with a expedition cabin. The other point is that if you are sitting in such a vehicle and the tilt angle passes some value you will be automatically very careful.

The third vehicle shown at about 30 degree tilt angle seems to be an Unimog. This one has totally different capabilities and has excellent offroad capabilities. Here the center of gravity is even lower because of the heavy base vehicle.

BTW, the travel report from Peter Kapschefsky on the Canning Stock Route in Australia can be found at http://www.kapschefsky.lkw-allrad.de/ .

Most of the people that are driving such a vehicle I am knowing, are no hardcore offroaders. Most of the time they just want to go on rough roads with comfort and high reliablity, go occasionally offroad to reach a nice spot, and finally enjoy these spots with at least some basic comfort. This can be achieved easily with most of this trucks. Some are less or more capable offroad. The preference decides.

And if someone prefers visiting very tight spots, then there is the possibility to take a motorcyle, quad, montain bike with him, or sometimes it is also very nice to do hiking. And when you come back from your exercise, you can take a shower in comfort, prepare a nice meal, and enjoy it and life together with a glass of fine wine during the sunset. :victory:

BTW, some people think we are crazy (or decadent :sombrero: ), because we use dishes made from real porcelain and drinking glass made of real glas :chowtime:. But for us good food and good wine tastes best using real dishes and real glasses. And nothing has been broken since a long time. And even when, it is easy to replace.

For me as native Bavarian, beer :beer: tastes best out of a glass or a mug made of stone. :coffeedrink: Some offroad campers with large trucks I know, even eat from stainless steel plates and drink beer out of plastic glasses - disgusting. ;)

http://www.naepflein.name/expeditionportal/Lake Ladoga, Russia.JPG
http://www.naepflein.name/expeditionportal/Lake Ladoga Sunset, Russia.JPG

Joaquin Suave

05-13-2009, 04:12 PM

VERY GOOD summation of what big off-road trucks are all about Emil.:26_7_2:

egn

05-14-2009, 05:43 AM

There has been now an even more expensive Unicat been build (http://www.promobil.de/unicat-mxxl-24-ah-wuestenschiff-fuer-2-millionen-euro-video-und-fotostrecke.314385.7.htm). More details can be found here (http://www.unicat.net/en/info/MXXL24AH.html).

For 2 million euros you get a lot of truck.

T.Low

05-16-2009, 02:37 AM

Fun and informative thread. If I had that kind of money, I'd still have my same litttle rig...but of course I'd have that one too!:drool:

Granted, this is the same stuff I did in my Mom's '68 Cutlas Wagon when I was 16, but it still gets the point across: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUj6VQTVndU&feature=related

egn

05-16-2009, 03:03 AM

Compared to the motorhomes above a race Kamaz (http://www.kamaz.net/en/vehicle/serial/17) is relatively cheep. Last time I heard that the base truck with 730 hp costs less than 200000 €. ;)

Maximum speed, not less 100 mph. The disadvantage is that it isn't 4WD. But if you keep at 100 mph, it isn't really necessary. :victory:

Doin_It

05-16-2009, 02:09 PM

2 million, and when you go to bed, you have to crawl in and out, that get old after a while, will really get to you in the middle of the night when you got to go pee.

sprale

05-19-2009, 03:46 AM

GlobalMonkey

05-19-2009, 04:18 AM

If money were no object on a massive overlander build, I'd begin with a Tatra 8x8 and go all out. If I had a mobile home on that scale, I'd stay mobile completely. It's just a bit bigger than the Skoolie I grew up in doing weeks and months at a time as a kid.

I've seen video of them competing in races and hauling massive loads. I'd just need to find garage space big enough for the build :Wow1:

Let me know when you are ready to get your Tatra, I can get you one, 4x4, 6x6 or 8x8, which ever you like. Crew cab, extended cab, single cab. Titled and licensed in the US. Either go to our website, www.tatratrucksusa.com and e-mail me there, or just contact me on here.
Thanx, Tomas

GlobalMonkey

05-19-2009, 04:24 AM

Something like this?

GlobalMonkey

05-19-2009, 04:27 AM

Or like this?

GlobalMonkey

05-19-2009, 04:29 AM

And if you know, how to post photos instead of just links to the photos, please let me know :)
Thanx, Tomas

egn

05-19-2009, 05:14 AM

And if you know, how to post photos instead of just links to the photos, please let me know :)

Load your images up to some picture site and the put the link between the IMG and /IMG tags.

Victorian

01-03-2010, 12:10 AM

Estimated $5.000.000.00

Ford Prefect

01-15-2010, 06:13 AM

Seawali

01-31-2010, 12:04 PM

Now we come to the MANs used by Unicat. Most of them are based on the civil versions LE220, TGM, TGA. They are certainly robust trucks, but they weren't designed for heavy offroad use. They have a bending/twisting frame and leaf springs.

Good Day Gents!
anyone know whether 3,5 ton trucks - Iveco, Scam, Bremach, etc - has bending/twisting frame ???

charlieaarons

01-31-2010, 03:38 PM

I have always thought that thing was pretty cool. Not sure that I believe the thing is worth it, but pretty cool, I guess, if you have more money than sense, and need a place to toss it around... Still, like I said, it is a nifty bit of work.

As I've mentioned in other threads, the Maximog has never been used in any expedition travel. The owner thinks it's some sort of "accomplishment" and has had it exhibited in museums (?!?).
The wisdom of removing a Mercedes 366LA diesel and replacing it with a 350 gas V8 escapes me. It merely proves the owner did not have serious use/int'l travel in mind.
Ditto the chromed jerrycans, chromed shackles and shiny low-set running boards.
He wanted and purchased a mall-cruiser.

Charlie

egn

01-31-2010, 04:06 PM

anyone know whether 3,5 ton trucks - Iveco, Scam, Bremach, etc - has bending/twisting frame ???

I know only two truck series that don't have a twisting/bending frame:
- MAN KAT and its successors
- Tatra trucks

Seawali

01-31-2010, 04:54 PM

I know only two truck series that don't have a twisting/bending frame:
- MAN KAT and its successors
- Tatra trucks

Thx!
Will need smart join system :wings:

Victorian

01-31-2010, 08:17 PM

As I've mentioned in other threads, the Maximog has never been used in any expedition travel. The owner thinks it's some sort of "accomplishment" and has had it exhibited in museums (?!?).
The wisdom of removing a Mercedes 366LA diesel and replacing it with a 350 gas V8 escapes me. It merely proves the owner did not have serious use/int'l travel in mind.
Ditto the chromed jerrycans, chromed shackles and shiny low-set running boards.
He wanted and purchased a mall-cruiser.

Charlie

You are right. We shipped it to the Museum of Modern Art in New York....
As for the usefulness: Having an underwater chainsaw with you, radar and infrared cameras on your truck will make it very special :elkgrin:

Lynn

01-31-2010, 09:36 PM

You are right. We shipped it to the Museum of Modern Art in New York....
As for the usefulness: Having an underwater chainsaw with you, radar and infrared cameras on your truck will make it very special :elkgrin:

I mentioned on another thread, but just have to say it again:

If he dares take a truck containing more high-tech espionage gear than most countries, into most countries, is he going to be surprised if it gets confiscated?

Victorian

01-31-2010, 10:08 PM

I mentioned on another thread, but just have to say it again:

If he dares take a truck containing more high-tech espionage gear than most countries, into most countries, is he going to be surprised if it gets confiscated?

Don't worry, he wont... it doesn't run :bike_rider:

skysix

01-31-2010, 11:47 PM

As for the usefulness: Having an underwater chainsaw with you, radar and infrared cameras on your truck will make it very special :elkgrin:

We used to have a hydraulic chainsaw on our SEV (Canadian army special engineering vehicle) along with a bunch of other toys - being able to go 100+ feet away from your truck and clear underwater obstacles without using explosive cutting charges can be useful, a diesel idling is a lot less attention getting - if you are into that sort of thing!

Where they were the most useful however was as disaster relief trucks. Go anywhere (-ish, AMG chassis is not as versatile as a TATRA or MAN KAT) and with the people, manual/air/electric and hydraulic tools and supplies for almost anything from heavy rescue to roadbuilding.

skysix

02-01-2010, 04:36 AM

scotts comment about the size is a good argument, too - but then again, many trails i've been on anything bigger than a common SUV-sized 4x4 wouldn't work.

With a rigid frame Tatra (813 or 815) or MAN Kat (A1 or A2) you can build a pretty comfortable RV - yet still put it through areas many smaller 4x4's can't go. From what I've seen on the Unicat site, a elevating roof model with a slightly lower profile (like a supersized (25' long) and updated non-cabover Alcan) would easily survive the abuse...

As to trail size - yeah hard rock overheads and trees bigger than 6" or so will be a problem, but look at some of the terrain they put these rigs through in the European Truck Trials. Driver (and spotter) skill/confidence (and traction) matters more than anything else. There are even starting to be 6x6x6's and possibly 8x8x8's (with rear steering instead of 6x6x2 and 8x8x4) which will drastically reduce the tight turn vs large turn radius issue.

http://www.europatruck-trial.com/cms/wp-content/gallery/3-lauf-nurburgring-d-2009/dsc03864.jpg

http://www.europatruck-trial.com/cms/wp-content/gallery/6-lauf-in-nieder-ofleiden-hessen-d-2008/82.jpg

http://www.europatruck-trial.com/cms/wp-content/gallery/6-lauf-in-nieder-ofleiden-hessen-d-2008/80.jpg

On that note - how come we don't see any of the Oshkosh or AM General trucks represented? The odd Gamma Goat is all I've seen, none of the later US Army models (although many Zils and Urals compete).

Harald Hansen

02-01-2010, 07:20 AM

You don't see American trucks competing in Europe for much the same reasons you don't get Tatras and ZiLs competing in the US; price and availability.

charlieaarons

02-01-2010, 06:24 PM

I know only two truck series that don't have a twisting/bending frame:
- MAN KAT and its successors
- Tatra trucks

The MAN SX has a fully boxed, more or less rigid frame. The 2 "lesser" versions (FX and LX?) have a twisty open frame; one has the military body, the other has the civil type body with various military changes.
The SX comes only with a ZF automatic and coil springs; the other versions come with leaf springs and can be obtained with manual transmission and optional WSK torque converter.

Charlie

T.Low

02-02-2010, 12:41 AM

You don't see American trucks competing in Europe for much the same reasons you don't get Tatras and ZiLs competing in the US; price and availability.

We were just discussing a similar question: Why does KTM win the Dakar (while Honda doesn't seem to even enter) all the time and Honda wins the Baja (while KTM doesn't seem to enter)?

Nobody in Europe buys Honda XR's...but personally I ride with more KTM's than Hondas.

PeterM

03-02-2010, 05:35 PM

Scam, Iveco (similar, same manufacturer): Low torsional stabilty
Bremach: high torsional stability (using a closed tube & welded "U"-beam

Regards, Peter

fuoristrada camper

03-02-2010, 06:31 PM

Example of a nice Man Kat camper seen in Libya, owned by a Spanish /German guy who's organising some motorbike trips around the world

Man Kat's are common here in Europe , not to expensive , not to old , not quit comfortoble and not very fuel economic but the owners loves them

Johnson360

10-08-2010, 01:41 PM

its that one of the truck that travel around where you can also live inside?

addicted56

10-20-2010, 02:43 AM

Not sure I agree - here's a pic of a Unicat on an offcamber switchback,

http://www.unicat.net/img/MD48-MANLE18.280Doka.3-560.jpg

and another showing the testing before sale. Having all the water/waste tanks and batteries/generator etc low is essential.

http://www.unicat.net/img/UM12FHAS.5-560.jpg

Note the lack of a safety strap to prevent rolling off the tilt table - they must have been pretty confident it would pass - given that it is a customers undelivered / unpaidfor rig!

One of my first posts on here and this is an amazing picture. But when was the last time you used a hydraulic lift to slowly lift your vehicle. What I really want to see is a graph discusing dynamic rollover and CG limits with different loading arrangments.

Again in the end very impressive but not very helpful as it does not apply to real world "driving" conditions.

Better then a safety strap. They are using the shop crane to keep it from rolling over (at least it appears that way).

Sure beats cramming in my Land Cruiser for those uber long trips though.

evilram

01-12-2011, 06:08 PM

One of my first posts on here and this is an amazing picture. But when was the last time you used a hydraulic lift to slowly lift your vehicle. What I really want to see is a graph discusing dynamic rollover and CG limits with different loading arrangments.

Again in the end very impressive but not very helpful as it does not apply to real world "driving" conditions.

Better then a safety strap. They are using the shop crane to keep it from rolling over (at least it appears that way).

Sure beats cramming in my Land Cruiser for those uber long trips though.

Holy crap.. That is crazines right there.

SkiFreak

01-13-2011, 08:50 PM

In my opinion, knowing the static angle that the vehicle can be tipped to before falling over is very valid.
If you have no idea about this then you are basically flying blind. Knowing how far it can go, in ideal conditions, gives you "limits".

landy89

03-10-2011, 03:01 PM

regarding expensive overland rigs...i have seen a lot of them on the road and that is where they stay, on the pavement. The problem is the weight; as soon as they are driven into soft off road conditions, they sink, are stuck and only a bull dozer can pull them out. The 4x4 capabilities of these rigs is completely useless. If a road, route, piste is hard enough to not sink in, then even a standard motorhome can drive on it. I have seen the entire range of vehicles travelling around south america (bermach, Unimog, MAN, Fiat Ducato, LandCruiser, Defender, regular large motorhomes, Citroen 2V, Mazda pickups, etc.) Almost everyone of these vehicles must stay and does stay on pavement roads. The only vehicles which are capable of going "in the jungle" or wherever else the road is full of sinkholes are light vehicles like Defenders, Toyota Hilux or pickups. Even the mighty landcruiser is a little too heavy for some of these conditions (i have pulled out many a landcruiser with my Defender). So the decision to buy a big rig or not depends on if you want to leave the pavement or not. And when you leave the pavement, it is inevitable that you will hit a soft patch at some point. So stay on the pavement and you can drive anything you want including the longest 2wd motorhomes. Go off the pavement and you will be wishing that you had bought a light vehicle instead. Another point to remember is that the more outlandish your vehicle is (MAN or whatever), the higher chance of robberies. You look like you have money. I drive around in a old defender that looks worse than most of the local vehicles, even though under the skin it is a new machine. I have never been robbed or had any problems. another thing to think about is water: when you have a large machine with 500L or more fresh water capacity, no one will let you fill up the tank at their campground, service station or whatever. Water costs money and you are taking way too much. furthermore, with a large rig it is impossible to enter towns or cities and you must find secure parking outside of the town; lots of fun when you need to find someone to change your oil, or you want to buy food, or someone to wash your dirty clothes...Lastly, i have seen many big rigs stranded for months waiting for some special part to be shipped in from Germany or wherever. It may just be a little thing, but it doesn't matter as every single part on the machine is unavailable locally. You had better have very good local language skills, patience, lots of cash money for bribes and import fees.

a little story for you: i was driving on a small hard packed but unpaved road in south america. As is very common, it was very narrow most of time (one vehicle) and it was very isolated with no places to turn around or branch off onto another road. along the road i met a MAN driven by rich guy trying to 'test' his machine....i told him what a beautiful machine he had, but i never bothered to tell him that 100kms ahead was a hand cut tunnel that was less than 2 yards wide and 2.5 yards tall. I never bothered to tell him because it is the kind of information that is not at top of mind for me - i simply didn't realize it at the time that he could not go there.

westyss

03-10-2011, 05:09 PM

Wow, thanks for the info, I wont be going anywhere now, Anyone looking for a Fuso FG? mine is for sale now.

Any one have an old Defender for sale, I am looking for one?:hehe:

dwh

03-10-2011, 05:23 PM

but i never bothered to tell him that 100kms ahead was a hand cut tunnel that was less than 2 yards wide and 2.5 yards tall.

Puhleeeeze...

The specs on a Defender say it's 70.5 inches wide. Two yards would be 72". So if that tunnel was "less than 2 yards wide" by even 2", then even your oh-so-slim-and-lightweight Defender wouldn't get through.

So really...what's the difference if you're driving a Defender or a MAN if NEITHER ONE will fit?

Now I guess it's time for the ADV guys to start bagging on those big fat heavy Defenders that are incapable of doing single track trails.

Oh, and rich guys are bad, m,kay? Don't help them, m'kay? Cause, they're bad, m'kay?

MNDodge

03-10-2011, 05:29 PM

So apparently all of those large expensive machines that compete in the Dakar drive in the soft sand with the help of.......magic tires....????

762X39

03-10-2011, 06:10 PM

but i never bothered to tell him that 100kms ahead was a hand cut tunnel that was less than 2 yards wide and 2.5 yards tall.

Well...weren't you nice:coffee:

egn

03-10-2011, 06:13 PM

We shouldn't make this a discussion large vs small, rich vs not so rich, ... just because someone has problems to see that this is really unimportant. Instead it is important that overlanders/travelers help each other and the local people when necessary.

I always enjoy helping people, and I am sure most other people have the same feeling. Sometimes it is the start of a friendship. With the behaviour shown above you are not making friends.

I hope for him that he himself doesn't need help sometime, and meets a person with a similar attitude.

howell_jd

03-10-2011, 06:43 PM

My wife tells me I am full of hot-air from time-to-time so that must help my flotation in sand! And my daughter believes in fairies so the magic pixie dust may actually be a component in my travels as well. I have been known to pray that I will make it over the next rock without breaking something too.

I do get stuck every once in a while but I like relating my own derailment stories much better than the ones about others deprecating someone else's adventures no matter what they drive - or where for that matter. Saying that - I have seen some wicked driving skills demonstrated off-road in classic two wheel drive RVs.

An open mind to all sorts of adventures and expeditions - wheeled or afoot - is what makes this forum so much fun and an informative site.

To landy89, You are welcome here in my opinion - not that it may matter - but a different manner of describing your opinion may not have as inflammatory effect in a thread that is defined by larger vehicles (ER, GXV, Unicat, etc.). Your perspective with a lighter vehicle is relevant but not exclusive or objective. I personally would appreciate seeing less of the one-upmanship or condescending treatment of what others select as their method to find a trail to journey upon.

Hopefully my viewpoint won't interfere with yours or others' vistas.

Enjoy.

Jonathan

Kowboy

03-10-2011, 08:12 PM

I frequent a lot of different forums 'cause I enjoy the variety and my goofy rig don't really fit into any of 'em. :rolleyes:

However, the "my rig is best ... and your rig sucks" attitude is not appreciated in any forum that I know of.

Perhaps you can locate a nice lil' forum for your Defender and share your thoughts with those Folks.

charlieaarons

03-10-2011, 08:17 PM

landy89

03-10-2011, 08:28 PM

The specs on a Defender say it's 70.5 inches wide. Two yards would be 72". So if that tunnel was "less than 2 yards wide" by even 2", then even your oh-so-slim-and-lightweight Defender wouldn't get through. It was a tight fit. and frankly i didn't tell the other driver because i forgot, not because i wanted to be mean. My point is that if you drive something wider than 2 meters, you must be thinking about that..same goes for height...with a regular sized vehicle you know that if it is a road, then chances that you can drive it are very high..not so with a monster machine.

So apparently all of those large expensive machines that compete in the Dakar drive in the soft sand with the help of.......magic tires....????
The dakar trail isn't as soft as you think. i have driven the 2011 trail and most of it is hard pack. Furthermore, if you get stuck in the dakar it is not a serious problem as there is machines around to pull you out...not the case when you are traveling on expedition. Would you and your spouse like to spend 5 days stuck at 5000 meters altitude because your heavy machine broke through the crust of a wet road - i've seen this before.

To landy89, You are welcome here in my opinion - not that it may matter - but a different manner of describing your opinion may not have as inflammatory effect in a thread that is defined by larger vehicles (ER, GXV, Unicat, etc.). Your perspective with a lighter vehicle is relevant but not exclusive or objective. I personally would appreciate seeing less of the one-upmanship or condescending treatment of what others select as their method to find a trail to journey upon.
Sorry if i offended all you heavy machine owners and lovers. I was only trying to give you some real world information when these machines are put to use in the environment for which they are claimed to have been built. I know that few of you will think i am trying to be objective, but i am and i certainly had and do have the resources to drive any vehicle we are talking about...yet i chose a light machine....You are welcome to drive around south america for a few years and see what vehicles are being used and where..i have and i have talked to many of the overlanders and what i posted about these machines is commonly accepted knowledge. There is nothing wrong with driving these machines, as there is nothing wrong with a 2CV, but there are very big compromises to be aware of that only experience will teach you. drive what you want, i will always help you when you need help. I am trying to help you right now with just a little feedback from the field, and i apologize if it isn't what you expected.

as for my choice of a Defender, it comes with compromise as well. compromises that are fairly obvious in terms of indoor living space. All vehicles are compromises, and my point remains that the marketing claims of these heavy machines do not live up to reality and that there are very real compromises to be aware of with these heavy machines.

Oh, i forgot one other big compromise for the heavy MAN type vehicles: very limited contact with local population. These rigs are designed as metal armor bubbles to isolate the driver from the outside world and it works, only criminals feel it is ok to approach the vehicle. instead a small vehicle is open and easy for local to approach to talk to you.

trailsurfer

03-11-2011, 04:11 AM

Why people think they need to come to a forum and criticize other peoples choices remains a mystery to me. I have rigs of all sizes and have driven all types of vehicles all over this world. Drive what you want!

I just completed an Overland trip in Mexico with my Earthroamer and a buddy in his Defender 90. We both went to the same places and neither of us got stuck or had a problem. I even let him use my shower 50 miles down a 4x4 road!

egn

03-11-2011, 05:35 AM

dwh

03-11-2011, 06:41 AM

Of course, when you have a large vehicle, most of the time the first question is: "What is the fuel consumption?". :sombrero:

Heh. In the U.S. we have a saying; "If you have to ask, you can't afford it."

egn

03-11-2011, 07:18 AM

This was I meant with open and friendly. Saying (openly) something like this is exactly what would stop any further communication. :ar15:

Let people make up their own mind, instead of offending them and you have a good time.

dwh

03-11-2011, 07:32 AM

This was I meant with open and friendly. Saying (openly) something like this is exactly what would stop any further communication. :ar15:

Yes. Perhaps I should have mentioned - it is a joke.

egn

03-11-2011, 07:50 AM

Sorry, no offense. :bowdown:

I just wanted to point out that one has to be very careful when communicating. Something meant to be as joke can easily be taken as offense, if you don't know the communication partner very well.

I am always very careful in the beginning. But after warming up and drinking a few beer :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: we can call us bloody bastards without offense taken. :D

nick disjunkt

03-11-2011, 10:10 AM

every vehicle has it's compromises. The best thing is that it suits your needs and you are enjoy using it.

For me I would rather have a comfortable, modern and large motorhome because I plan on living in it for years and appreciate the benefits it gives. If it means it is unsuited for jungle tracks then either I don't go there or I find another way to get to them. For others an older, less comfortable and smaller vehicle is better suited because it has been their lifes ambition to travel to remote places in less developed parts of the world.

Any vehicle can be made to work to travel in.

UK4X4

03-11-2011, 12:24 PM

My trucks better than your truck ...ne haanehehaaaaa

6 posts and all you have to offer is your trucks better than others

Dweb maybe more your scene.....

meanwhile back to the excessive size and luxery .....when you have lots of pennies to spend and your running out of off the shelf toy's better than your neigbour you have to look to custom

In the middle east the local ferrari- lambo and Bugatti stores have STOCK to sell, no waiting list arround here........

Went past a lambo yesterday parked in a side road covered in dust and still had plastic on the spoiler....just sat there- road did not even have tarmac and he could'nt be assed to even park it inside the house..

Big trucks - small trucks every ones a winner !

as long as its used to its fullest ability

yep big trucks just sink as soon as they get offroad..........please
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g165/POshaughnessy/DC%20Challenge/DSC_4397.jpg

mind you the tractor unit is 6X6 !

When I stopped to take the photo , I sunk my Nissan patrol and need sand boards to get going again.........size does not matter

michaelvanpelt

03-11-2011, 01:52 PM

Landy States
You are welcome to drive around south america for a few years and see what vehicles are being used and where..i have and i have talked to many of the overlanders and what i posted about these machines is commonly accepted knowledge. There is nothing wrong with driving these machines, as there is nothing wrong with a 2CV, but there are very big compromises to be aware of that only experience will teach you. drive what you want, i will always help you when you need help. I am trying to help you right now with just a little feedback from the field, and i apologize if it isn't what you expected.

My Experience is different, I have traveled in South America for years, and as some of you know I took a 26 foot long Unimog all through South America. I agree the local populations drive small fuel-efficient vehicles. However the Overlanders do not. That is not to say that everyone drives big vehicles or that most drive big vehicles. The vehicle choices are as different as the vehicle owners and the type and style of trip that they are taking. People that are retired and are taking a year or more, often times, multiple years to see South America are driving the large vehicles. People that are driving the Pan Am route and do it within several months or less than a year are typically driving the small vehicles similar to the Defender. I would say this is very similar to the owners of motor homes in the United States. Retired full timers are typically driving larger motorhomes because they are living in them.

[quote] Oh, i forgot one other big compromise for the heavy MAN type vehicles: very limited contact with local population. These rigs are designed as metal armor bubbles to isolate the driver from the outside world and it works, only criminals feel it is ok to approach the vehicle. instead a small vehicle is open and easy for local to approach to talk to you.

I definitely disagree with this statement. This is written from a person that has not driven a large vehicle in South America and so does not have this experience to draw from. Very few times unless we were in an isolated area did we wake up without people outside wanting to talk to us. We had some of the most wonderful experiences because people were curious about our vehicle and about the type of trip that we were taking.

People that could hardly afford to buy us lunch wanted us to park in front of their house and meet their family and friends. Others such as the comptroller of the Brazilian currency insisted that we stay in a guest room within their home and meet their family and friends. Meetings like this happened on a daily basis in every country we were in. We were treated wonderfully by everyone we came in contact with.

Many times we would come up to a border crossing or police check to see a defender or G. wagon already there as well as dozens of other cars. We would get out, show our papers post for some photographs, allow the person in charge to also have his photograph taken with his man on or around the vehicle and we would be on our way before the other cars that were there before us were even done unloading everything they were making them unload so that the vehicles could be checked. For a brief period of time we traveled with a small group of other expedition vehicles. During this time we were unapproachable. People do not want to approach a large group of vehicles but do want to approach the individual vehicle.

In fairness our vehicle looked unique and interesting and this is why we receive the attention and friendliness that we received. Our expedition vehicle was not ostentatious but interesting. The size of this vehicle made it very easy to maneuver and to go places that other vehicles would not go. So if I was driving north to south just to say I did it I would take a small vehicle. If I was exploring and enjoying the countries I would take a larger more comfortable vehicle.

howell_jd

03-11-2011, 02:14 PM

Oh, i forgot one other big compromise for the heavy MAN type vehicles: very limited contact with local population. These rigs are designed as metal armor bubbles to isolate the driver from the outside world and it works, only criminals feel it is ok to approach the vehicle. instead a small vehicle is open and easy for local to approach to talk to you.

...uh...perhaps reflection upon your own armored comments is more appropriate to your position of (un)approachability and (perhaps impending) limited contact and isolation...

I'm going to backtrack for a moment here so bear with me.

Welcome to the Portal! Glad to see a new member - the community always benefits from the addition of stories from veteran experiences or vigor that accompanies a newly inspired explorer.

You may enjoy investigating a number of the threads from members who have explored their personal corner of the globe extensively or from those who have even circumnavigated the globe - some have made their trips lavishly equipped while others have demonstrated how thrift and can-do attitude stretch a journey beyond miles into smiles! Expedition Portal has it all for those who enjoy the trip as much as the destination.

There are threads for powered travel of all sorts - whether driven by an MRE and adrenaline fed, air-breathing, liquid-cooled engine or a modern, electronic, zero-emissions electric motor or something in-between - you will certainly find excitement and interesting topics of discussion.

Sharing your own travel experiences is highly encouraged - especially with photos! The whole spectrum of capability and skill is represented here so nurture the flame of novice interest with encouragement and freely share your own experiences of pitfalls. There are classic tent campers and exquisite trailer caravan units, there are some classic overlanding wheeled vehicles from the turn of the LAST century to modern trucks seemingly requiring advanced degrees to operate - but all include folks who love the outdoors and sharing their experience with friends along the way whether on the 'Portal here or on the road less travelled where they make new and interesting friends.

This may not be an "official" welcome but feel welcome indeed. Grab a donut and a coffee and enjoy; leave the gray skies behind.

Jonathan

dzzz

03-11-2011, 04:13 PM

Not a wide Land Rover......ONLY A DEFENDER.
Thank goodness finally a definitive answer. The rest of you are so wishy washy about vehicle choice.
Now we need to be told where to sleep. I hope it's not in the back seat with my feet sticking out the window.

MNDodge

03-11-2011, 07:42 PM

Hard packed sand dunes??? That's a new one to me..

Anyway, what in the world did you hope to accomplish by coming on here and pretty much saying anyone who thinks a large vehicle is good for an expedition or overlanding trip is an idiot??? I do not own a MAN KAT, Unimog or anything similar, and will probably never have the money to own one unless I win the lottery, and since I never play the lottery...... But I do see the usefulness in them and would love to have one.

Maybe try being a little more open-minded, instead of thinking your way is the best and only intelligent way and everyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot...

LukeH

03-11-2011, 08:12 PM

Now I thought this thread was about truck porn so we could all look at the “most expensive overlander”
Whether it’s a Ferrari, Unicat or 2CV we can look at them and admire the work that’s gone into them without necessarily wanting them.
We are free to decide what WE want and justify OUR OWN decisions however we fancy. It’s when imposing our decisions on others that we upset people (see global history for repeated references – we never learn)
The whole “it’s too big” and “contact with population” etc. handed down like this without even a IMHO anywere to be seen is old hat, has been popping up in off road fora around the world and is pure provocation.

I bet the owner of the MAN got to where he wanted to go. I bet he had a whale of a time exploring alternative routes on the quad he was carrying with him.
I bet he muttered a few words about you when he found the tunnel, and then got on with his life.
I bet he’s in a financial situation at this stage in his life where he no longer has time constraints so the time it took to find an alternative route was all part of his adventure.
For all we know, he may even have opened up his satellite connection and looked closely at Google Maps to find alternative pistes.
He may have set up camp and made some fantastic friends next to the tunnel opening because someone didn’t warn him about the restriction.

Lucky the defender didn’t have wheel wideners.

As for traction, off-road ability etc. maybe the reason our provocateur has only met the big units on the road is because the defender is too small to take on the big stuff off road. (that’s me deliberately provoking there ;-)
My 14 tonne truck (empty weight 8 tonnes) on old 365/85/20 XZLs climbed a 1 in 4 fresh snowy slope that left a modern Pajero with traction control and dedicated snow tyres spinning at the bottom.
To say they’re rubbish off-road in such a categorical way implies extensive personal driving experience in big trucks. Otherwise a contributor is better saying something like “I wouldn’t like to take one off road”.
However I don’t think the Dakar is the best illustration, as the speed and power of those rigs accounts for a lot of the obstacles that they get through; and I for one wouldn’t dare go that fast and probably can’t afford that much power.
IMHO much better illustrations can be found by here: http://www.fuess-mobile.de/Video.htm
Gutless 170 hp engines, really soft sand, 10 tonne trucks. There’s one 1924 in there, see if you can spot the 240hp engine.
They seem to get by.
So much of off road ability depends on other factors than the absolute definitive ability of the truck itself, that, again, “crap off road” is too big a call.
Here’s one: he sinks because of a slow gear change YouTube - TATRA MAROC 2010_0001.wmv , lovely 6x6 with 500hp, inexperienced driver, very slow gear changes. (he’s trying to sell me that truck at the moment – SOOOO tempting)

Whatever; after typing that I realise that I have also risen to the provocation.
D’oh!

landy89

03-12-2011, 02:18 PM

Thanks for the welcome Jonathan. This forum doesn't seem to have many actual overlanders on it, so i do appreciate the welcome.

here is a little video of some heavy machines on actual roads in Russia. There are two machines. If it had been only one machine, it would still be there.
click here (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5816454280981316175#docid=-540085403229409460). The type of road conditions in this video is generally what one can expect when traveling off pavement when doing expedition in asia, africa, or south america. Of course with the wonderful bonus of there being no one around to help you with a machine or equipment big enough. Show the video to your spouse and see what she thinks about spending a month or more waiting in a insect infested mud hole to get your toy pulled out.

I have spent years traveling in very extreme locations and i know that with a heavy vehicle i would never have been able to see or go to many of the places i have. For example: 3 months inside the world's largest swamp is not possible with a heavy vehicle ;and that is why i have been fortunate enough to be 5 meters from a jaguar.

dwh

03-12-2011, 04:22 PM

here is a little video of some heavy machines on actual roads in Russia. There are two machines. If it had been only one machine, it would still be there.

That's a rather silly assumption. If they had a shovel and were willing to dig, eventually they wouldn't be there - solo or not. I see plenty of wood in the background of that video. With wood you can rig all sorts of things, anchor points, lifting tackle, winches, or even build a road if need be.

And I've seen plenty of Jeep/Cruiser/Land Rover sized vehicles stuck in the mud. Has that never happened to you? So you've pulled out those sinfully heavy Cruisers - but have never been pulled out yourself? Defenders just don't GET stuck eh?

If you've got another vehicle to help pull you out, then you use it. If you don't, then you dig. Often, as seen in the video, you do both.

I have spent years traveling in very extreme locations and i know that with a heavy vehicle i would never have been able to see or go to many of the places i have. For example: 3 months inside the world's largest swamp is not possible with a heavy vehicle ;and that is why i have been fortunate enough to be 5 meters from a jaguar.

And here is where your logic breaks down, and you either fail to see it, or deliberately ignore it. By your logic:

MAN is less than Mog
Mog < Defender

That's fine as far as it goes, but that's where you stop - let's take it the rest of the way:

Defender < 1200 motorbike
1200 motorbike < 600 motorbike
600 motorbike < 250 motorbike
250 motorbike < mountain bicycle
mountain bicycle < backpack and boots
backpack and boots < loincloth
loincloth < butt naked

Thus by following your logic, we see that the greatest is butt naked.

(Especially for swamps. So you've been 5 feet from a jaguar - there are plenty of loinclothed or butt naked tribesman who've been even closer than that. The difference is mindset; you were prepared to look at a jaguar, the tribemen were prepared to EAT a jaguar.)

A bit facetious I know. So let's just sum it up this way:

By your own logic, anything smaller than a Defender is superior to a big fat heavy defender. Smaller is better. Less is more.

And you may well be right. Motorcyclists use the same argument that you used about contact with the locals. They feel that riding a motorcycle puts them in more intimate contact with the locals than driving around inside of a steel box (of any size).

So again, using YOUR OWN ARGUMENT - your Defender is a poor choice of vehicle.

So how about this...you stop trying to convince us that your choice is the best choice, and just accept the fact that you've made as many or more compromises with your choice of vehicle as someone who drives a different vehicle.

And one last thing. You might try asking if someone's spouse would prefer being stuck for a month and having a toilet over having to crap in the bushes every single day of the whole bloody trip.

LukeH

03-12-2011, 08:27 PM

This forum doesn't seem to have many actual overlanders on it, so i do appreciate the welcome.

ROFLMAO!!!
The tone of the welcome got me smiling; that was just hilarious!

Judging by the depth of the mud in those holes IMHO a defender would also have needed a pull from the MOG.

Dunno how much of that getting stuck in that particular vid is down to tyre choice and how much is ground clearance.

Drive your defender through this then!
YouTube - On the way in Russia - ?? ???? ? ?????? - Unterwegs in Russland

i have been fortunate enough to be 5 meters from a jaguar.

If it was a concours level original D-type you were quite lucky, the E-types's cool, the S and 40 don't count (british Leyland years).
:bike_rider:

LukeH

03-12-2011, 08:30 PM

And one last thing. You might try asking if someone's spouse would prefer being stuck for a month and having a toilet over having to crap in the bushes every single day of the whole bloody trip.

Often with an audience (friends had this problem in Africa, we had a camper)

charlieaarons

03-12-2011, 08:39 PM

Welcome also to this forum.
I am overlanding in a heavy vehicle - a 12 ton Unimog U500/Unicat. We have been badly stuck in a non dry lake bed in Baja for about 2.75 days. It took 2 Mexican Army Hummers to help us out.
Yes there are places we cannot go - trails with low overhanging trees, dirt roads marked "4.5 ton limit" in the highly unusual rain here in Central Australia.
But being old fogies my wife wouldn't travel without a toilet, shower, fixed bed, kitchenette, etc. We have been to some pretty remote places. We were stopped 300m short of the end of the road to Cape York by an overhanging tree branch. I now have a pole saw.
Just a bit of friendly advice:there does seem to be some bitterness/"politics of envy" in your posts. Most people with big heavy expensive vehicles don't buy them without working thru the Landrover/Landcruiser stage, then the F350/camper stage, etc. and we know well the limitations of a big heavy vehicle.
Life is full of compromises.

Charlie

landy89

03-12-2011, 08:56 PM

Hi Charlie. Thanks for the welcome. Sorry if you detect bitterness in my posts - there is none in my mind for sure. It sounds like you are very well aware of the limits of these heavy machines. I was only hoping to help some other folks avoid disappointment when they found out after the purchase that their heavy machine did not meet the marketing.

As for the rest of this interesting collection of responses; all straw man arguments, but interesting psychologically nonetheless.

Just so no future reader gets trapped in the mountains of nonsense in this thread, i will try to put my point a bit more clearly once again: If you make an solo expedition with a heavy vehicle, you will inevitably discover that the weight and size of the vehicle precludes you from doing the "off road" adventure you previously thought it might allow. In fact you might as well have brought a luxurious 2WD motorhome instead as you will be driving on terrain that is suitable for it anyways.

Of course the lighter the method of transport, the more mobile you will be in these 'off road' condition, but you will probably wish for some compromise of comfort vs. ability. Of course a 4x4 SUV is not as light as walking, but when fitted properly it can provided ALL of the creature comforts of a MAN or similar - Without the weight problem.

There are four heavy vehicles that i know of which are right now stuck in four separate unattractive locations. Two are stuck due to excessive weight and are waiting for heavy machinery to help them. I drove past these two units at different times without any issues of getting stuck myself. The other two are waiting for specialized parts to be sent from Germany (they have only been waiting 2 months so far). Naturally the owners of the second two units do not speak the local language at all and are unable to get the parts through 'customs'.

I do not claim that travel on pavement is worse or better than off pavement travel. I am only stating that if you desire real off pavement travel, then you need to be light. And yes a motorcycle is better than a SUV for this, but it brings a very large number of compromises regarding comfort.

And one last thing. You might try asking if someone's spouse would prefer being stuck for a month and having a toilet over having to crap in the bushes every single day of the whole bloody trip. I have a toilet in my vehicle. And a hot shower, and a stove, and a sink, and outdoor and indoor sleeping... Bigger is definitely not better in the overland game, smarter is better.

dzzz

03-12-2011, 09:10 PM

single petroleum industry worker.

dwh

03-12-2011, 10:40 PM

As for the rest of this interesting collection of responses; all straw man arguments, but interesting psychologically nonetheless.

Translation: "I'll just imply that I understand these fools minds better than they do, since I can't actually refute anything they've said. This will confound them and make me look mysterious and all-knowing."

Sorry milord, that might have worked on the wogs a hundred years ago, but it's not awe-inspiring these days.

Just so no future reader gets trapped in the mountains of nonsense in this thread

Actually, this thread WAS mostly a lark until you came along and attempted to turn into a big vs. small pissing contest.

I should probably say, "yet another big vs. small pissing contest", since no doubt it has been argued here many times before.

i will try to put my point a bit more clearly once again: If you make an solo expedition with a heavy vehicle, you will inevitably discover that the weight and size of the vehicle precludes you from doing the "off road" adventure you previously thought it might allow

For SOME. For others, who know what they are doing and are quite aware the the limitations, your comments are simply an insulting attempt at self-aggrandizement.

Of course the lighter the method of transport, the more mobile you will be in these 'off road' condition, but you will probably wish for some compromise of comfort vs. ability. Of course a 4x4 SUV is not as light as walking, but when fitted properly it can provided ALL of the creature comforts of a MAN or similar - Without the weight problem.

That's a patently ridiculous statement. What is true is that it can -approximate- the comfort of a larger vehicle. It certainly CANNOT "provide all the creature comforts of a MAN or similar".

Well, I suppose it could if you were in possession of one of Heinlein's four dimensional carryalls. But you aren't.

There are four heavy vehicles that i know of which are right now stuck in four separate unattractive locations. Two are stuck due to excessive weight and are waiting for heavy machinery to help them. I drove past these two units at different times without any issues of getting stuck myself. The other two are waiting for specialized parts to be sent from Germany (they have only been waiting 2 months so far). Naturally the owners of the second two units do not speak the local language at all and are unable to get the parts through 'customs'.

And this never happens to lighter vehicles? You know of no one driving a lighter vehicle which is stuck or waiting for imported parts?

Are we to believe that simply because you are unaware of any, that they do not exist?

And yes a motorcycle is better than a SUV for this, but it brings a very large number of compromises regarding comfort.

But of course, YOUR choices represent no compromise at all.

I have a toilet in my vehicle. And a hot shower, and a stove, and a sink, and outdoor and indoor sleeping...

In, or with? You shower INSIDE of your Land Rover? Next to a radiator which not only heats the room but also makes your towels toasty warm?

Bigger is definitely not better in the overland game, smarter is better.

And once again, the implication that you are smarter and your choices represent the "best" choices. Which is an insult whether or not you acknowledge (or are even aware of) it.

Obviously, YOU assume you are smarter. I however, remain unconvinced.

dzzz

03-13-2011, 01:23 AM

I should probably say, "yet another big vs. small pissing contest", since no doubt it has been argued here many times before.

No, not really.

trailsurfer

03-13-2011, 03:22 AM

Landy 89 is just trying to pick a fight where there is not one. Maybe one day when he gets to travel multiple continents in multiple vehicles both and large and small he will have a better perspective.

I wish him luck as a new member of the forum and hope his stay here is productive, it is very entertaining so far!

howell_jd

03-13-2011, 03:38 AM

Thanks for the welcome Jonathan. This forum doesn't seem to have many actual overlanders on it, so i do appreciate the welcome...

...Show the video to your spouse and see what she thinks about spending a month or more waiting in a insect infested mud hole to get your toy pulled out.

If you visit my profile you will find that my wife is a native of Far East Russia where the definition of a "good" road depends upon comparison. Our visits there have been quite effective at building pride in the quality of US roads...even those stretches of bad pavement in the Arkansas panhandle - boom, boom, boom, boom (was that a bass track or actual asphalt?).

We've managed to enjoy our travels - perhaps your perspective and personal definition will exclude us as overlanders but it won't hurt our feelings - on roads and through areas not otherwise limited to the size of our truck.

I've also had the "pleasure" or "fortune" of pooping in a can for over a year while folks that don't like Americans attempt to send "motivation" my way. I guess I sort of see that as overlanding in a way but again your definition perhaps is different than my own.

Prior to the ER, I had a RoadTrek...decidedly incapable of off-road tracks that have been no problem with the ER...but even the RT saw dirt under the tires - I think that mostly makes a statement about going where you want to and then accepting the consequences of digging or winching or a good Samaritan's assistance. By the way, the RT was MUCH lighter and physically smaller than the ER so "heavy" or "big" really are inadequate for descriptions of limitations.

...By far my favorite recovery was when a bunch of guys hauled me and a few others of my platoon out of some OUTRAGEOUS mud we WALKED into! Night ops and NVGs on foot - I managed to save the boots but my Squad Leaders ensured that a young Lieutenant's ego received proper THRASHING! What a memory...I assure you we all considered our field time as a bit more than "camping" at the time (and to this day as well)...

I guess thread migration has taken hold here - although as a Soldier I think that "expensive overlander" is fitting considering the equipment we travel with!

Hey, here's a photo of a truck we've got at work that moves with no problems in mud or sand...low bearing pressure from the treads!
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae294/howell_jd/ERDC%20Vehicles/IMG00052-20100406-1530.jpg

I'll have to order up a set for the ER someday!

Jonathan

762X39

03-13-2011, 12:15 PM

Can we get back on topic? I want to see more truck porn.:coffee:

dzzz

03-13-2011, 03:49 PM

To get back on this topic, wouldn't we just look at the big 6x6 by unicat and action mobile? My prejudice is that getting over 28' or so the clearance numbers don't work well, even with the biggest practical tires. Plus the vehicle gets bigger than typical commercial trucks in some areas. I don't want to be the biggest truck on the road.
So the "truck porn" of the most expensive offroaders doesn't due much for me. The 6x6 are past my comfort level for mobility.
Many non-unimog owners probably don't realize that the longest standard wheelbase on any model is ~153". Like an average american pickup. The bigger unimogs campers are on wheelbases stretched after production.

Charlie, when you were stuck in Baja, could you not establish a winching anchor point? Have you tried your multiple pull pals?

dwh

03-13-2011, 04:33 PM

Charlie, when you were stuck in Baja, could you not establish a winching anchor point?

Hmmm. Dry lakebed in Baja...not many resources around. That'd be a tough nut to crack. Might have to bury a spare wheel to make an anchor point. Could take a while...maybe longer than waiting for help.

Have you tried your multiple pull pals?

Yea, I'd like to know how those work with a heavy beast.

dzzz

03-13-2011, 04:44 PM

For a buried anchor point I've thought about carrying some angle iron under the truck. Two pieces bolted into an X with an eye bolt.
I would like to know more about setting an anchor point in rock.
I can winch about 230', but that's not as far as it seems outdoors. A typical 4x4 would a only be an adequate winch anchor if buried. I don't think most people offering to help would go for that......

charlieaarons

03-13-2011, 11:46 PM

I had only 1 pullpal but now I have 2 inthe truck.
With just 1, it dragged. 2 will probably "catch".
The main thing is to thoroughly prospect "dry" lakes
and lower psi to minimum to decrease ground pressure.
I also now have an 8 ton air bag with 4' lift.

Charlie

dwh

03-14-2011, 12:42 AM

A typical 4x4 would a only be an adequate winch anchor if buried. I don't think most people offering to help would go for that......

And even if they would...who'd wanna dig the hole? :ylsmoke:

Bob599

03-14-2011, 04:16 AM

I love all this that rig is too big crap. I love to ride off road on dirt bikes or ATV's on roads that most cars would be destroyed on and many so called off road SUV's would never tackle. The one vehicle I see on every trail back into the woods are the vehicle's the trails were designed for. Since they all started out as logging roads I see big trucks with huge payloads. Not overbuilt Tacoma's but Peterbuilts and Freightliners! Hauling *** usually. I wonder if those drivers are considered overlanders or off road certified! No I don't mean BJ and the Bear are traveling down the Rubicon trail but did you guys ever take a look at some of the trails your driving on and wonder how the hell did that truck parked over there get HERE? The one overlander you will be guaranteed to see in the rain forest is a logging truck!

OK now somebody post some pics of a Unimog god's sake!

dwh

03-14-2011, 06:41 AM

Okay, okay!

YouTube - Unimog tows a Land Rover over a glacial river

LukeH

03-14-2011, 02:16 PM

That's impossible!
There's no way that a defender could ever need to be helped out by a bigger vehicle. Bigger vehicles are rubbish off road.
We Have Been Told By He Who Knows.

Sorry guys I just couldn't resist. Maybe that's why you chose that vid.

Intrigued by an air jack with four feet of travel; scary all that pressure in a sewn bag.
Is it stable enough to lift an end at a time? Or should one keep to one corner at a time?

dzzz

03-14-2011, 02:51 PM

There's not much pressure in air bags. Just a lot of force due to size.
---------
Following this thread (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54778) to the couples blog is an interesting read. They're sleeping in a RTT on their "landy". If the landy is somehow superior to a camper for this type of trip the advantages are well hidden. Helen is the blog writer. Perhaps if driver Paul had written the entries there would be some evidence of the superiority of this 50 something couple sleeping on their roof. All I could think of is how I would prefer to crawl into my own camper each night.

I also think the Most Expensive Overlander is probably too big for this type of round the world trip.

charlieaarons

03-14-2011, 11:05 PM

The air bag only hold 9-10 psi; the surface area pushing upwards is ~48x48", so that computes to ~20000 lb!
It is made by Matjack.

Charlie

egn

03-15-2011, 08:09 AM

In 2009 I rescued a large trailer truck in the Czech Republic with my high pressure Vetter V40 (40 metric tons) air bags (max. 10 bar).

I first lifted and secured the trailer, and then pulled out the truck. Then we build a support with my aluminum sand blades and coupled the trailer again. Another pull rescued the complete truck.

The Lithuanian driver was very happy because he would have to wait 4-5 hours for expensive help from a professional service. My help was immediate and for free.

The air bags can be used very well to lift part of a heavy vehicle. I got them cheap from the german army. I have two 40 t and one 32 t air bag and a control panel. It is allowed to put two of them above each other to increase the lifting height.

LukeH

03-15-2011, 01:27 PM

The air bag only hold 9-10 psi; the surface area pushing upwards is ~48x48", so that computes to ~20000 lb!
It is made by Matjack.

Charlie

I gotta get me a couple of those!
I guess they cost a bit more than an inner tube in a sack....

Holger

06-09-2011, 10:33 AM

To come back to the original question, I bet this (http://www.unicat.net/en/info/MXXL24AH.html) comes very, very close.

doug720

06-09-2011, 03:46 PM

It's nice to see "OUR" petro Dollar$ hard at work! Yes, that may will be the winner...or very close.

Doug

Warn Industries

06-17-2011, 09:59 PM

To come back to the original question, I bet this (http://www.unicat.net/en/info/MXXL24AH.html) comes very, very close.

Holy smokes ... I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like that.

- Andy

evans.family

06-19-2011, 10:48 AM

After reading through landy89 numerous posts I thought I would like to comment:

Thanks you for sharing your experience, I think many of your points are valid and should be considered when selecting the correct vehicle for whatever adventure is planned.

My comment is that you have chosen a very inflammatory writing style, some folks have even found it insulting! Personally I think you have given us all a very clear insight into your attitudes to fellow adventurers.

In my experience such a negative attitude is (thankfully) very rare, most travellers that I have met are helpful, considerate and generous to fellow adventurers and would never knowingly allow someone to get into difficulty. Why would anyone behave so badly?

I have considered carefully the "Big, heavy V Small, light" question and decided to address all options/compromises that my budget would allow, therefore I have just finished building a 10 ton 4X4 camper (ex military, simple, easy to repair and get spare parts) with storage for a 4x4 quad bike also a 4m inflatable boat and 20hp outboard.

The plan is to travel in comfort on Asphalt and rough roads in the camper, go off roading with my quad bike and explore rivers etc in the boat. If things work the way I have planned at the end of a tough day exploring I will have a shower, enjoy a gin and tonic with ice, sleep in a comfortable bed and if its hot put on the aircon. I will also have the choice to be sociable and meet the locals or shut the windows and doors and have some privacy - very important in some parts of the world!

Adventure travel has been part of my life for more than 30 years, I have found it to be a personal journey with no "right way - wrong way" my biggest learning is that a positive, happy attitude to life is the most important thing to carry on any journey.

I may be mistaken but I did not get that feeling from reading the previous posts!