Expedition Trailers

[flyingwil]

While researching expedition trailers a bit more, I was wondering how those of you that have them hook them up to your vehicle. Yeah, I know you use a hitch, but what kind?

The standard ball hitch has it limits, while there is little about the 360* pivot ball hitch (looks promising), and there is the the good old military style pintle hitch. Based upon what I could find, the pintle hitch and reciever seem to offer the most when comes to off the pavement driving.

So what are your thoughts and opinions on hitches?

Wil

[Suty]

Wil, It's been my experience , i.e. the military, that the pintle hitch is the best for off road...now on road maybe a different story as I did not do much on road diving with 'em.
To me the ball hitch would seem to limit flexibility by a great margin. Now I know that I am know Hitchologist, but I just don't see how it can compete off road. On road I feel like it would be more stable (as stable as a trailer can be) and less prone to fishtailing. There must be a reason you do not see Pintle hitches on trailers that do alot of on road work. I rambled on enough, I guess if I was building or buying a True Expedition Trailer, I would want a Pintle. Tu Compadre, Suty

[Scott Brady]

My Venturecraft (http://www.expeditionswest.com/vehicles/ewvehicles/VenturCraft/index.html) has a standard ball hitch, but the draw bar can articulate 360 degrees (yes, even roll over :smilies27 )

My Jumping Jack (http://www.expeditionswest.com/equipment/adventure_equip/Jumping_jack.html) just has the standard hitch, but it doesn't do too bad on the trail, considering its size...

http://www.expeditionswest.com/equipment/adventure_equip/jumping_jack/album_two/images/trailer_in_action.jpg

IMO, this is the best solution (adventure trailers (http://www.adventuretrailers.com/accessories/Accessories.html)):
http://www.adventuretrailers.com/accessories/Pop_Ups/LocknRollLARGE.jpg

[60seriesguy]

I've logged about 10K miles off road with my expedition trailer (started out as an ex-mil M416 a long time ago) without any problems, all using the original lunette hitch and a pintle hook with a tight fit around the lunette. It does clunk a bit, but I don't even notice it anymore...

[Scott Brady]

Henry,

That is a "first class" trailer. I have had mixed emotions on trailers for "expedition" travel. I suppose the biggest negative I have found it travel speed on mildly rocky terrain. There is a great trail in the Sierra Pinacate, but it is full of small lava rocks. Towing a trailer through there was painful. For everything else, it seems to be pretty nice. When used with my Jeeps, the trailer was a god send, and allowed me to travel very technical terrain, and have a great bed to sleep in at night.

What has your experience been on extended tracks?

[blupaddler]

Exiled!!! Welcome to the forum! I thought I recognized that trailer.
I am sure you can add a great deal of information here.
How is your conversion coming along? Are things finished yet?

Good to see you here.

:wavey:

[flyingwil]

Thanks for all the input... That multi axis coupler looks pretty slick. I was just exploring my options and routes on my wish list... and you guys never let me down for information!

Wil

[The BN Guy]

Slick looking trailer Henry! I've been keeping an eye out for an old military trailer for that exact setup.

[60seriesguy]

My experience has been mixed, but generally positive. If it's not too rocky or rutted, the trailer seems to hold up well to dirt roads, even at speed. I designed the suspension to be pretty forgiving and usually run the big tires at medium PSI's to help with the "float". On rougher roads, you're definitely limited at the speed which you can run, but that's OK for me.

I don't take the trailer on all trips, that's what I have the roof rack for. But I find that a good cargo distribution between the truck and trailer keeps the trailer light enough to be maneuverable off road and the truck from wallowing.

I've also towed this trailer through some pretty tough trails so I could learn its limitations and dimensions, with some positive results. My wife and I towed it all the way up to Crown King via the back side when we finished the first stage of the buildup, and made it thru with flying colors.

But on the toughest trails or expeditions that involve a lot of sand driving, the trailer stays home.


PS: Thanks everyone for the welcome, it's nice to be back. The conversion is about three weeks away from completion, I'm really excited and already thinking of what type of expedition to plan to test the longer range of the old girl!

[kai38]

I also have a M416 trailer like Henry has.
I have my tent mounted on top which works out great I can leave it in camp and not have the weight of the tent on the roof on my Land Cruiser.
The pintel hitch works great off road but I have heard of people flipping the trailer in very off camber situations. The tow truck stays up right though since the pintel will rotate 360 degrees.

http://k43.pbase.com/u42/kai38/upload/27234022.LSLCCRUISERROUNDUP2004206.jpg

[Outback]

While making a "U" turn off road with our 2 5/16th ball Wells Cargo 10' trailer the ball and hitch seperated. I of course didnt know this until i notice that theres allot of gravel and dirt spraying up from the hitch area. A 1 ton dually dodge cummins diesel isnt going to notice its dragging something this light! The chains didnt catch the hitch even though they werte crossed. must have been at the extreme turn angle(s) when it popped off. A pintle hitch will NOT do this ever! When towing with the pintle hitch there is more "hitch" noise but its no big deal at all. In fact as mentioned by someone else you dont even notice it afgter youve towed with a pintle hitch mnore than a few miles. I feel the reason a ball hitch was invented is for th simple fact that most 99% of the the people towing NEVER go off road! In that case why bother with any noises. Manufacturers have now made most trucks into luxury yahts. No road noise. No road feel foe that matter and would never dream of someone actually wanting to take there new 4x4 truck off road! No I will always have a pintle hitch for my off road trailers. I have seen some of these fancy 360 degree hitches as well. While I find they are very well designed I still am not quite sure why pople use them. They are not nearly as strong as a standard pintle hitch system. Im sure they make no noise so for some I guess thats a plus. But the I also dont see them as strong as a standard type ball hitch. Ive seen some home made jobs that are just down right dangerous! BUT to each his own. You cant go wrong off road or on road with a good Pintle style hitch system.

[Martyn]

Max Coupler http://www.adventuretrailers.com/coupler.html

Proving to be the best we have tested and have on our rigs.

[Outback]

That looks like a very strong design. One of the home made jobbers I saw in person was down right unsafe.

[Martyn]

That looks like a very strong design. One of the home made jobbers I saw in person was down right unsafe.

There will soon be a 5000 lb version of the Max Coupler

[Outback]

But a question I have is why not just a pintle style set up? Not that a camp trailer needs the unbelievable strength of a pintle.

[Martyn]

But a question I have is why not just a pintle style set up? Not that a camp trailer needs the unbelievable strength of a pintle.

The pintle has a number of issues beyond the noise factor.

There is no solid connection between the trailer and tow vehicle and this can set up trailer sway at speeds greater than 55 mph.

The backlash from the movement within the pintle is transmitted to the tow vehicles transmission and drive train.

A regular pintle only has 45° before it binds. (non-rotational)

I know people are going to point out that their trailer set up with a pintle doesn't sway, but the proof is in the pudding. Until you have towed with a multi axis coupler you'll never realize how bad a pintle is. It's the same as people who use coolers and then buy an Engle fridge. It's only then that they realize how bad coolers were.

The transmission of stress to the transmission and drive train is somewhat mitigated by a spring loaded pintle. The spring loaded pintle seems to be evidence in itself that the stress is an issue.

The pintle, like the leaf spring, has a history going back to horse drawn carts and stage coaches. The technology hasn't advanced much in over a hundred years.

The reason pintles are still used is that they are inter-changable between vehicles, they are a standard, they are available, and they are inexpensive. I can't see one reason from a design perspective why they are still in use.

The military uses them because they are a NATO standard and NATO wants every vehicle from every member's military to be able to tow each others trailers.

[Outback]

Thanks for the reply.

I have not experienced any of the negative aspects you have mentioned. I can see if a trailer was loaded improperly how a none physical connection would be bad but I have never experienced this. I have had blow outs and still never experienced any unsafe characteristics. I tow at whatever the legal speed limit is. That includes 85 mph with my recently new addition to my trailer collection. Again never any unsafe handeling characteristics. as far as back lash Im not sure what that is. Is it the small knock when you take off? If so I dont see how that would hurt a transmission or anything else.

BUT I do drive 1 ton trucks so maybe on a smaller vehicle? I dont know.

At 45 degree angle they do bind but Im not sure how thats bad. At 45 degree side angle most vehicles will roll or be close to. Again not sure how a 360 degree rotation is better.

As far as towing with a pintle or ball there is no diffrence when on the highway. I have never experienced a diffrence and if someone dropped me in a seat at 75 mph and both trailers were the same but one had a pintle and one a ball I wouldnt beable to tell you which was which. any trailer that is loaded improperly will have bad characteristics. It would be the same between a ball, pintle or multi axis.

You say "The pintle, like the leaf spring, has a history going back to horse drawn carts and stage coaches. The technology hasn't advanced much in over a hundred years." Yes the tech is old but its hard to beat a good thing. The reason these designs have been around so long is because they work.


You also say "The reason pintles are still used is that they are inter-changable between vehicles, they are a standard, they are available, and they are inexpensive. I can't see one reason from a design perspective why they are still in use.

The military uses them because they are a NATO standard and NATO wants every vehicle from every member's military to be able to tow each others trailers."

Again the system is simple fast and works great. I think you have a great design but I dont see it superior to the pintle. I dont agree with you about the characteristics you describe the pintle as having. Again I think you have a great product. Maybe this will be the future for Military vehicles. I would like to drive a trailer with one of these multi axis hitches. I am glad to see someone who is building a solid well built unit.

[Martyn]

Reaching 45° is easily done off-road when the vehicle is tilted in one direction and the trailer in another.

You are going to have to try the multi axis coupler for yourself to see and feel the benefits. It would be pointless me trying to convince you that they are better than the Pintle because that is what you are familiar with.

I don't place much stock in the pintle being around for so long because it's good technology. If the North American market was large enough then people would have invested time and money in new designs.

If you look at the Australian off-road market they have at least 4 brands of off-road multi axis couplers that are used by almost every rugged trailer in the country. They leave the pintles to the military. North America is playing catch up

[Outback]

One of my older designe pintle does rotate 360 degrees. The newer design does not. I had the newer design pretty crossed up but dont believe they met up. But again I wasnt really worried about it. The trailer followed behind me perfectly.

I may just have to buy one and see what all the fuss is about. Im sure its a good design.

You say " If you look at the Australian off-road market they have at least 4 brands of off-road multi axis couplers that are used by almost every rugged trailer in the country. They leave the pintles to the military. North America is playing catch up"

The Aussies sure have a big play ground to play in!

[dieselandmud]

There will soon be a 5000 lb version of the Max Coupler

Martyn
So what is the hitch you have available now rated at?

[Martyn]

Martyn
So what is the hitch you have available now rated at?

The Max Coupler is currently rated at 3500 lbs so it's more than adequate for small off-road trailers. The testing procedure applies three times the rated weight to the coupler, so this coupler was stressed to 10,500 lbs.

The vehicles side of the coupler needs a very small design change to get the 5000 lb rating. Getting this rating puts it into the Class III ratings and opens up a lot more markets.

[JIMBO]

:sombrero: I've used the ball/pintel and the "l & R from Martyn

The ball is great for hiways

The Pintel/Lunette is great for rocks/ruts/off-camber, but NOISY

The Lock and Roll is GREAT for everything and noiseless

The new Max coupler, must be better, though I'll stay with the L & R for my trailer, it's so easy to hitch/unhitch at ANY angle (which I've done)

I carry a Pintel/Lunette spare in my trailer, just incase!!!

:victory::smiley_drive::safari-rig::safari-rig: JIMBO

[texaslawman]

:sombrero: I've used the ball/pintel and the "l & R from Martyn

The ball is great for hiways

The Pintel/Lunette is great for rocks/ruts/off-camber, but NOISY

The Lock and Roll is GREAT for everything and noiseless

The new Max coupler, must be better, though I'll stay with the L & R for my trailer, it's so easy to hitch/unhitch at ANY angle (which I've done)

I carry a Pintel/Lunette spare in my trailer, just incase!!!

:victory::smiley_drive::safari-rig::safari-rig: JIMBO

X2 if I was starting my trailer build today I would use the Max coupler but Ill stick with the lock n roll now.

[ntsqd]

FWIW every bumper hitched tow vehicle - trailer combination has a Critical Speed; one where the combo will start to sway. The trick is to push it up to a speed that isn't reasonable to tow at. There is at least one formula that will predict what that speed is, but it's complicated and would be a mess to try to put into normal text. There is also a value for the trailer tire's sidewall stiffness that would be hard to acquire and a PITA to empirically derive. Besides, by the time that you derived it you'd know the answer already!

The ball coupler has more internal friction in it than does the pintle/lunette design. That friction, though it isn't much, does have a damping ability on trailer sway. How much of an effect I do not know, but with some folks implying or having experienced that the pintle/lunette will sway long before a ball coupler I'm inclined to think that even though the friction isn't great that it's effect on trailer sway is.

[Borrego60]

The Max Coupler is currently rated at 3500 lbs so it's more than adequate for small off-road trailers. The testing procedure applies three times the rated weight to the coupler, so this coupler was stressed to 10,500 lbs.

The vehicles side of the coupler needs a very small design change to get the 5000 lb rating. Getting this rating puts it into the Class III ratings and opens up a lot more markets. Hi Martyn, you stated the vehicle side needs a small design change to rate 5000lbs. Care to state what design change is needed. My tundra is rated for 6500lbs.
Thanks this would be a great addition to the thread multi axis coupler.

[Martyn]

Hi Martyn, you stated the vehicle side needs a small design change to rate 5000lbs. Care to state what design change is needed. My tundra is rated for 6500lbs.
Thanks this would be a great addition to the thread multi axis coupler.

I'd prefer not to say how the coupler is being modified. The engineers learned something from the original testing that they hadn't taken into account during design.

The coupler has been redesigned and is now being reworked in Solid Works. Once that is complete it will be sent out to testing again.

[Outback]

Sway in a trailer is directly related to how its loaded. The further behind the axle you go with weight the more it wants to act like a pengilum. The further forward you go from the axle the more stable the trailer becomes. The more weight you have on the tongue can reduce the tow vehicles front tire contact patch or weight that is on the front tire. Ideally you want the trailer nice and level as well as the tow vehicle. If your tow vehicle is all jacked up front and the *** end is sunk down and your trailer leaning forward you have to much weight on the tongue. Very bad. If you have everything nice and level but your trailers *** end keeps swaying you have to much weight on the rear of the trailer. This is the biggest reason people loose control of there trailers. They start to sway and it keeps building and building and you loose control. One must take the time and play around with how the trailer is loaded. One rule of thumb is to place the heaviest items on top of and just forward of the axle(s). In front of that the next heaviest things until you get to the front. Behing the rear axle you want the lightest stuff going from light to lightest at the very back. One of our crews lost control of a trailer on the highway in a fog. It had about 1 million in gear in it. Then comes a semi truck and no more trailer or gear. These yahoos always loaded the trailers the exact opposite of what I described above. The reason? Because it was easier to load and unload when they got to base. I kept telling them it was wrong. The driver always complained about how it handled. NO ****! was my response you guys are loading it wrong.........Everytime I would pick up there trailer for whatever reason I would always completely unload it and then reload it. NEVER any problems. Then after they crashed they started to load the trailer right. Gee wonder why. A day late and a Million dollars later. Its all in how the weight is distributed. If there loaded right they wont sway and will follow you perfectly.

[AzRover]

I use Dixon Bate 7.6 ton rotating pintle
( http://www.dixonbate.co.uk/towing/product.asp?PartNo=FV987957 ) to pull my M101A2. It works well. I have the hitch a little bit lower than the where it would be for a level trailer. That makes the trailer quiet when lightly loaded, or with a load who's weight is evenly distributed.
They make a light duty version also. I just got this one at a low price on Ebay.

[ntsqd]

Even with a well designed & built, perfectly loaded trailer there is a speed at which it will start to sway. The trick is that a well built trailer loaded correctly has a Critical Speed that is high enough to be completely unreasonable to drive at.

[go4aryd]

...and any sway will be amplified with a pintle anytime you are coasting - like down a rutted, washboardy road. Has nothing to do with trailer loading, just the additional play of a pintle. (...and I am a noise hater on those backroads).