Winching VS. Pulling

[Brian McVickers]

http://tucsonoffroad.proboards107.com/index.cgi?board=videos&action=display&thread=1154843597

In the two videos linked above, one vehicle is stuck in some water and another vehicle is winching them out of the water and then up a hill.

The recovery vehicle doing the winching also burnt out its winch motor in the process.

In this situation should you winch or pull with a strap?

Limited space will probably play a big factor the decision.

[ZooJunkie]

From the video it looked like they had plenty of space to pull the truck up the hill.

I would say once the truck was freed from the water, and on more firm grounding, switch to pulling the vehicle out. Give that winch a break, but we have the luxury of hindsight. :)

[Scott Brady]

I always prefer to winch, and for two reasons:

1. Practice! Need to use the tools as much as possible
2. Control: Winches allow slow, fine control for moving the load and make life much easier on the vehicles.

But, sometimes you don't have time, or you are getting stuck several times in a trail (or a large group), so it is much faster to just pull out a strap.

Other times, there is nothing suitable to winch to in front of you, so you must get pulled/winched back.

When winching, always check the heat of the motor with a gloved hand.

[OutbacKamper]

When winching, always check the heat of the motor with a gloved hand.

Um..wouldn't it be safer to stop winching first and then check?

sorry, I could not resist :hehe:

Cheers
Mark

[Scott Brady]

It depends on how much of a hurry you are in :ylsmoke:

http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2006/outback_challenge/event/D6_10.jpg

[Grim Reaper]

First vid was no big deal. Flat area so the winch was not moving a major load To get it to shore. Either option would have worked. I probably would have gone with the winch too just to save getting my strap wet.

Second vid the Winch is not a bad Idea. In fact with the limited area it was probably the better choice. I don't think the Jeep would have had enough traction to pull the dead K5 up the hill with no real area to get a rolling start. Also the speed needed with the K5 going backwards it could have got out of hand REAL quick and possibly result in the K5 on its side.

Now he made a really bad choice in how little cable he had out. That winch, if it was the factory cable on it, had between 100-125ft of cable. He only had 30-40ft out when he was at max load. That K5 would be around 5-5.5k. So he was exceeding the winches rating.


Yeah yeah that just confused a few of you ...Some of you are going to say "but that was at least an 8K winch!" Here is the reason he exceeded the winch rating:

A Winch is rated max pull on the first wrap on the drum. He was on the 3rd wrap and the extra diameter reduces its max pull to around 4-5k depending on what the winch was rated. That is why he was having problems and then overheated and burned up his winch. He should have backed up more to allow the winch to be on the bottom wrap OR he should have double lined it. Either option would reduce load on the winch. He should have also allowed the winch to rest and cool. The duty cycle at full pull is only 30 seconds or so.
Here is the specs on the M8000...one of the more popular winches with the people on this site. http://www.warn.com/truck/winches/src/M8000.shtml
The third wrap single line is rated 3900lb.

Now look at that vid one more time.....Just where the hell was he pulling that truck to in the first place?

The winch truck was sitting where the disabled truck needed to be. There was a clear spot 30feet back allowing for enough room to get that K5 to the top of the hill on one rig double lined.

It is best to rig and make sure the disabled vehicle will stop in a safe place. Stopping on that hill to re-rig is NOT safe. The K5 probably wasn't running so no power assist. NEVER trust a Parking paw or a parking brake on that steep of hill. That Winching operation is best served as a bad example of how to winch. It was just plain bad planning and not knowing the equipment.

If you ever get in the position where you have no choice but to make multiple rigs on a hill it’s a good Idea to use a recovery strap to a fixed object to make sure the vehicle is not going to slide when the cable tension is removed when you rig to the next winch point.

[DaktariEd]

Grim Reaper,

Actually that helps my understanding a lot!
As a novice at winching and such I can use all the help I can get.

Thanks for the post...

:D
Ed

[Grim Reaper]

Grim Reaper,

Actually that helps my understanding a lot!
As a novice at winching and such I can use all the help I can get.

Thanks for the post...

:D
Ed

No problem. You learn to do it right REAL quick at Tellico. Nothing stinks worse then having to drag a cable up a snot slick mud covered 45degree hill to drag a Way over weight K5 up a 600ft hill...in the rain. You know its going to be a long day when you are stalling a HS9500i on the second wrap and the 5th truck in line didn't strap to a tree as he started to re rig and slid 40ft down right after the cable was unhooked and is sideways on the slope about to roll. LOL

I don't have a picture of that truck but here is pictures of my truck as I was going up. Thats the approach to Guardrail......If it has rained in the last three hours.....pass that obstacle. LOL

I didn't have a winch at the time and was the third truck. The guy in front of me would pull himself up and stabilize on a strap then we would rig off a tree back down to me and pull my truck up, strap and do it again. Dry that section takes 15 minutes if you have a locker. Wet it took us 3.5 hours to get 7 trucks up it.

The first pick my truck was on a water bar the second pic in a few areas there wasn't a tree close enough to strap off too so we would have to back the truck into a the berms for the water bars to make sure they would stay put.

[flyingwil]

It depends on how much of a hurry you are in :ylsmoke:

http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2006/outback_challenge/event/D6_10.jpg


HMMMMM Could that be the outback Challenge? :clapsmile

Need more pics!

[Willman]

:iagree:

More pictures would rock!!!

Time is the big factor in this issue...I like to make time for the winch!!! Gotta play with the toys!!!

[Jonathan Hanson]

That is a major Dude-shot, Scott.

[Brian McVickers]

Grim Reaper,

What is a "water bar"??

Thanks
Brian

[Life_in_4Lo]

Grim Reaper,
thanks for you view of the videos. It is always informative to get a perspective like that after watching something. Put it in the mental bank.:smiley_drive:

[Grim Reaper]

Grim Reaper,

What is a "water bar"??

Thanks
Brian

In areas of heavy rain on steep hills a "Water bar" is dug to divert water off the trail to help control erosion. They dig them REAL big around here LOL. Most of the FS controlled trail systems in my area get new water bars about every 2 years.
http://www.abe.msstate.edu/Tools/csd/NRCS-BMPs/pdf/water/erosion/waterbar.pdf#search=%22water%20bar%22

[Brian McVickers]

Thanks!

[flyingwil]

I know some of you guys are active on the Tucson Off-Road, but have you watched the other videos? I just do not understand why anyone would want to publish and show off that they do not stay on the trails. Yeah it is cool to see their approach angles in action, but it is not cool to not be on the trail. If they need something more extreme why not run H2H?


Also back on topic, I do not see anything wrong with using the winch in their situation, I would have done the same.

[bigreen505]

I just do not understand why anyone would want to publish and show off that they do not stay on the trails.

Because it's cool, they're pioneers, rebels, pirates, poaching? "I bought/built this truck/rig/atv/buggy/crawler/kick *** proof of my manhood to go off road, not follow the tracks of everyone that came before me. Try it, it's fun and cool. Now hold the camera so my buddies will see how cool I am." The "environmentalists" among them think it will grow back, but most don't really care. Manifest destiny, you know.

Wanna see? Hold my beer while I show you how far I can go with 40" MT/Rs and 400 all-American V8 horsepower.:ar15:

Besides there are legit reasons for going off the trail or blazing your own such as ... um ... well maybe ... um ... building a road to go to your mine in 1856?

One thing I've learned looking at a lot of pictures is sometimes, it really is an established road/trail even if doesn't look like it.

[Grim Reaper]

I know some of you guys are active on the Tucson Off-Road, but have you watched the other videos? I just do not understand why anyone would want to publish and show off that they do not stay on the trails. Yeah it is cool to see their approach angles in action, but it is not cool to not be on the trail. If they need something more extreme why not run H2H?


Also back on topic, I do not see anything wrong with using the winch in their situation, I would have done the same.


Should we post this on the PBB and let the Pirrate4x4.com Lynching comence?

Say what you want about Pirate but they DO NOT put up with that sort of activity. They have been so close to loosing the Rubicon from BS like that they are hypersensitive to anybody acting like that off trail.

[Scott Brady]

Should we post this on the PBB and let the Pirrate4x4.com Lynching comence?


I dont think so IMHO. Maybe an email or PM to one of the moderators would be a better first step. I think 90% of the Tucson BB is solid and more than capable of self policing.

[flyingwil]

I don't get why I am the first one to bring this up. Yeah, we have all gone off the trail before, or not followed Tread Lightly ethics, but seeing this and the replies encouraging their behavior made my stomach turn! I can not get onto their site at work, but if any one that is a member of the club, please bring it up to who it needs to.

On the other hand it has to be brought up in the correct way, as to educate and teach as opposed to scolding them. Can someone please take the initiative and get them on the right path before their behavior snowballs and others that are new to the sport think that it is an okay thing to do.

[Jonathan Hanson]

I'm afraid my attitude toward this stuff is a bit harsher.

In the Tread Lightly training they go to great lengths to suggest ways we can approach land abusers in an intelligent, reasonable fashion. The problem with this approach is that it has been designed by intelligent, reasonable people and presented to intelligent, reasonable people (the reason they're doing Tread Lightly in the first place). But often those we need to apply it to are not intelligent and reasonable. Or at least they're not acting that way at the time, due to "peer pressure," which I prefer to think of as "simultaneous stupidity."

My solution to this scenario is to have about a dozen of the nicest Expo vehicles show up while it's happening. We all walk down to the guys who are stuck off the trail and ask for their home addresses. When they ask why, we say, "When this area gets closed because of abuse like this, we all want to be able to send you a personal thank-you note."

Okay, that's probably the wrong approach, but wouldn't it feel ever so much better than smiling and doing the "Hey, looks like you guys are having fun. We just want to remind you that we all share this area and it's the responsibility of all of us to blah blah blah?"

[Brian McVickers]

Thanks everyone for the input on proper winching technique.:bowdown:
I have learned how to better use mine and will be able to practice more proper technique the next time it is needed.


Moving forward, there certainly is a problem with wildcat and destructive offroading across the country.
Hopefully we can all contribute with preventing this behavior through the examples we set and the opportunities we have to influence.
Maybe we move this over to the Concervation and Land Use area to discuss opportunities and techniques for
Educating new 4x4 enthusiasts
Educating actively destructive wildcat offroaders
Organizing trail cleanup and maintenance efforts
And doing what we can for preserving the opportunities we have with overland travel and offroad adventure.

[bigreen505]

I don't get why I am the first one to bring this up.

Personally, I only watched the first two videos (recovery 1 and 2) and didn't realize there was more until your post.

[GeoRoss]

Recovery is also about having the right gear. I didn't in these cases. In the river, the steel cable wasn't long enough and the rope broke repeated no until we wrapped/twisted multiple times.

The other shot shows what happens when your recovery vehicle gets stuck too! 30km to the nearest road and the hope that you can persuade someone to come pull you out. 14hr later, it was a done but expensive

[Brian McVickers]

Great shots GeoRoss
did the river go down or was the white truck stuck twice?

[bigreen505]

Another off the trail post here (http://www.colorado4x4.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=534102#post534102).

[GeoRoss]

Great shots GeoRoss
did the river go down or was the white truck stuck twice?

Same river, just different parts. The one were both got stuck was two days after the first picture and upstream quite a bit. Both were swollen from snow melt.

Ross

[Life_in_4Lo]

I have a different attitude about it- altho I don't know how these people were acting in general (I only saw the 2 vids); I believe simple ignorance can be a major factor.
I think people try their best with the knowledge they have, which at times, is not enough. It is not intentional, nor is it an excuse. However, there must be a positive, inclusive way to educate people w/o attacking them. So they change and preach the change to others.

Watching others' mistakes is one great way to learn (as in this thread) however, the video camera is unforgiving and yes, can decieve too. Also, the shoe maybe on the other foot one day.

Learning never stops, thus mistakes won't either, however, stupidity is unforgivable and so is the unwillingness to learn. I would see where on the chart these people fall on the meter to determine how you feel about it.

[Brian894x4]

Forgive me if this was already covered in the thread, but one thing to consider, especially if you have an IFS Toyota or a solid axle Toyota with stock birfs is that when you are tugging someout out backwards, you're putting all the weight and torque of the rig, plus the added stress of towing on the front axle and this a great way to break axles and birfs. Especially if you just happen to be turning at the same time.

I don't mind towing, but if I have to choose between towing someone backwards or winching, I'll winch everytime, just for that reason.

[goodtimes]

Forgive me if this was already covered in the thread, but one thing to consider, especially if you have an IFS Toyota or a solid axle Toyota with stock birfs is that when you are tugging someout out backwards, you're putting all the weight and torque of the rig, plus the added stress of towing on the front axle and this a great way to break axles and birfs. Especially if you just happen to be turning at the same time.

This holds true for pretty much every axle out there. Even with my dana 44 up front and small tires (33"), I will not pull someone while I'm in reverse.

[HongerVenture]

Forgive me if this was already covered in the thread, but one thing to consider, especially if you have an IFS Toyota or a solid axle Toyota with stock birfs is that when you are tugging someout out backwards, you're putting all the weight and torque of the rig, plus the added stress of towing on the front axle and this a great way to break axles and birfs. Especially if you just happen to be turning at the same time.

I don't mind towing, but if I have to choose between towing someone backwards or winching, I'll winch everytime, just for that reason.

I believe you on this, but being the engineer it bugs me when I don't understand. Can you explain a little more how pulling someone out in reverse puts all the torque on the fron axle?

Joel

[Brian894x4]

I believe you on this, but being the engineer it bugs me when I don't understand. Can you explain a little more how pulling someone out in reverse puts all the torque on the fron axle?

Joel

Because of the weight shift. When going in reverse, the front axle sees all the stresses that are normally reserved for the rear (usually larger and beefer) axle. And especially with a pick-up, where a lot of the time, most of the weight is concentrate on the front with the engine, cab and occupants.

Add to that, the additional weight from the tow rope pulling the front end down as you tug and if you just happen to be pulling backwards up hill, which is common, even more weight is on the front axle. In fact, in that situation, the majority of the torque and traction could be going through the usually weaker front axle. And finally, if you happen to be turning, the U-joints or CV joints are in a weaker position to break.

Of course, this all assumes you're in 4WD.

[portager]

Try going to welding supply stores. They can give you a full fill.

The PowerTank unit comes with high end regulator, hose, oil filled gauge and quick connect air fitting. Not sure it justifies the price, but it is high quality.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[HillbillyfromAL]

Try going to welding supply stores. They can give you a full fill.

The PowerTank unit comes with high end regulator, hose, oil filled gauge and quick connect air fitting. Not sure it justifies the price, but it is high quality.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

Wow now this a way to resurrect a 6yr old thread. That or you might want to get your phone fixed.

[Antichrist]

I was trying to figure out what Power Tanks had to do with winching vs. pulling. ;)