Bolt on vs. weld on sliders

[bigreen505]

Is there any significant disadvantage to bolt on sliders? This is going on the Trooper, not a rock buggy, and not on overly difficult trails either.

My concern is that magnesium chloride, this horrible gunk that CDOT floods the roads with in the winter, is the most corrosive substance I've ever seen, and I want to be able to repaint or replace the sliders as necessary as they chip and rust.

[mountainpete]

The biggest disadvantage to bolt-on sliders is the price versus weld on. That's about it.

If you filter through the posts, you should be able to get some good info here:

http://www.tacomaterritory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13064

[Scott Brady]

I prefer the bolt on. If you do get damage, all it takes is a few bolts to install a new one.

My bolt-ons have been flawless.

[vanguard]

They say bolt ons are nice because you can take them off for touch up paint. Trust me, that's not really true. Sliders are pretty heavy and it's *far* easier to just put a piece of cardboard between the sliders and truck to "rattlecan it" than to remove them and reinstall them. Heck, I didn't even take them off to fix a bad weld. (I made my own.)

I like Scott's idea that you can easily return them if they don't hold up. I also question the way many sliders are welded on. Some people just have a tube welded to the frame. No plate, no gussets, etc. Bolt on sliders are typically designed with a nice L or better yet, U shapped bracket.

[articulate]

Is there any significant disadvantage to bolt on sliders? This is going on the Trooper, not a rock buggy, and not on overly difficult trails either.

My concern is that magnesium chloride, this horrible gunk that CDOT floods the roads with in the winter, is the most corrosive substance I've ever seen, and I want to be able to repaint or replace the sliders as necessary as they chip and rust.
Based on these comments to your question, I beg to ask: What's the advantage to weld-on sliders?

[asteffes]

Bolt-ons do not alter the heat treatment of the truck frame.

[Ursidae69]

Mine are welded, and I just re-painted them this past weekend. It wasn't a problem.

[Boston Mangler]

Another vote for bolt on sliders. I have the bolt on hannas and couldnt be happier.

Another good point a fellow cruiserfreak brought up what is your vehicle is financed (or even if it isnt) and you get into an accident with WELD on sliders, could the insurance folks deny you $ because you did (in theory) alter the frame by welding to it?

[mountainpete]

Based on these comments to your question, I beg to ask: What's the advantage to weld-on sliders?

They are always cheaper then bolt-on. Often up to $200 cheaper.

[bigreen505]

Based on these comments to your question, I beg to ask: What's the advantage to weld-on sliders?

I thought they were stronger and generally the preferred way to install them. Guess I thought wrong! Cool, one more way I get to have my cake and eat it too.

[ShearPin]

An ex-boyfriend of my sisters who I ran trails with from time to time wanted sliders on his Jeep Grand Cherokee (probably a' '94 or '95). I tried to dissuade him from taking the easy root with a unibody vehicle and simply welding box steel under the doorframes. For the repair reasons already mentioned plus the potential for cracks given body flex - didn't seem like a good idea to me.

He persuaded a friend of his to do the welding. They guy tacked it then proceeded to weld. By the time he reached the front fenders smoke started coming out of every seam with some paint bubbling on the fender. Couldn't help but laugh. After the fire was extinguished we found a block of styrofoam type sound deading material behind the fender had ignited.

Having worked primarily on old Land Rovers the idea of sound deadning material never occured to me.....

Henry
www.4x4freedom.com

[Ursidae69]

Bolt-ons do not alter the heat treatment of the truck frame.


I bought the DO frame reinforcements and plan to weld them on later this fall. Is this heat treatment issue something that will cause problems later or what?

[erin]

I'm curious as to the heat treatment also. I would have thought that frame steel would just be mild steel with no heat treatment so as to allow it to flex. Treated steel would be more rigid, but also more brittle in regards to over flexing the frame. I would also think from a crash prespective, OEM's would prefer the softer steel so as to absorb more impact in a collision.

[ZooJunkie]

Bolt-ons do not alter the heat treatment of the truck frame.

That depends on the steel and the forming process the car manufacturer used. Mild steel (low carbon steel) should not require heat treatment, because heat treatment will not further strengthen the steel. If the manufacturer like most modern companies, will or may have imployed hydroforming to form the steel box section. Which would not not require heat to form the steel, the steel is not required to be heat treated. Also, we're talking about a small section of welded mild steel on the frame, it's not enough to weaken to a point where your frame is in danger of collasping in on itself.

I guess this is up for debate. :)

[waskillywabbit]

Another vote for bolt on sliders. I have the bolt on hannas and couldnt be happier.

Another good point a fellow cruiserfreak brought up what is your vehicle is financed (or even if it isnt) and you get into an accident with WELD on sliders, could the insurance folks deny you $ because you did (in theory) alter the frame by welding to it?

Bolt on vx. welded eh? I think it boils down to preference.

Welding to the frame is altering it? I guess technically you could say that, but I doubt your insurance company would much like all the HOLES you drilled in it either...now that is definitely altering it.

I bet you a set of weld on sliders I could remove a set of weld on sliders so that you never knew they were there 10 times easier and faster than a set of bolt on sliders that has drilled countless holes in the frame rails.

Drilling holes (you don't replace the metal) only weakens the frame structurally. Welding something to it properly only strengthens the frame structurally.

:elkgrin:

[tarbe]

Welding to the frame is altering it? I guess technically you could say that, but I doubt your insurance company would much like all the HOLES you drilled in it either...now that is definitely altering it.

:elkgrin:


Hanna is the only slider I've owned, and I can tell you I did not drill any holes in my frame to mount them!!

Can't speak to other brands...although I've never heard of anyone drilling holes to mount sliders.

[VikingVince]

Drilling holes (you don't replace the metal) only weakens the frame structurally. Welding something to it properly only strengthens the frame structurally.


I agree with that. Metallurgically, a PROPERLY welded joint is stronger than a simliar joint created with a bolt...because proper welding creates one contiguous piece of metal. And...MIG welding will not weaken the frame rails.

[Boston Mangler]

Welding to the frame is altering it? I guess technically you could say that

No, i dont think so, but this was brought up in a conversation and i am sure some real *** could make a legal point that it is!



but I doubt your insurance company would much like all the HOLES you drilled in it either...now that is definitely altering it.

Ummmm, no holes for the Hannas! Their design is amazing!



I bet you a set of weld on sliders I could remove a set of weld on sliders so that you never knew they were there 10 times easier and faster than a set of bolt on sliders that has drilled countless holes in the frame rails.

YOUR ON! I will take the 5 ulbolts and 6 bolts that hold mine off in less then 30mins. In fact, i just did that last week to add a small spacer to them (long story). So, when do you want to do this? :D



Drilling holes (you don't replace the metal) only weakens the frame structurally. Welding something to it properly only strengthens the frame structurally.

Again, no holes here! :D

[cruiseroutfit]

Always been a fan of weld-on, can't say I've run across a reason to take them off in the past 5 years on either of my rigs... not to mention all the ones we've built.

Bolt versus a "properly" done weld... weld anyday of the week. I use a 45 degree scab plate on the frame, and or at least gussets. I don't know of any frames (common to us) that are heat treated, so thats not even a remote issue...

In alot of cases a weld-on will not only have a better asthetic (IMHO of course) look, but also more clearance. This is obviously a generalization, but many of the sliders out there, including the Hanna have bars lower than they would have to be in the case of a weld-on.

My Tacoma ones...

[waskillywabbit]

I agree with that. Metallurgically, a PROPERLY welded joint is stronger than a simliar joint created with a bolt...because proper welding creates one contiguous piece of metal. And...MIG welding will not weaken the frame rails.

:wings: :wings: :wings:

I don't just play a fabrication engineer online...I play one at work too. :sport_box

As my first response said...personal preference. And I've never seen any Hanna sliders that bolt on and the only bolt ons that I've seen have been THROUGH the frame, not around it.

:elkgrin:

[goodtimes]

I've had 'em both, and prefer bolt on. They are a bigger PITA to make, but you can take them off and modify/repair them easier. There is also the question of the HAZ when welding to the frame. Personally, I have never seen a frame fail from having a set of sliders welded to it...nor have I seen a frame fail because of a set of holes drilled through it to mount sliders.

Something to consider if using bolt on sliders on a vehicle with a boxed frame...you will need to sleeve the holes to avoid crushing the frame (added time and $$$). This is not an issue with frames that are not boxed. Some frames have enough holes in accessable locations to allow you to avoid drilling at all...others do not. You will have to look at your particular vehicle and see.

[datrupr]

Now, I was having this debate with myself a few months back. I really wanted to go with bolt on, but doing a ton of research, I found that the only bolt on sliders for the Trooper you have to drill through the frame. I did not like that idea much. Then, I sat down with Crawler#976 and we checked out the frame of my Trooper for a plan of attack on my sliders and we both decided that the best way to get good quality sliders on the truck was to weld them on. But, we could reinforce the welds with bolts through the existing holes in the frame, but that does not make much sense. Now, I just need to buy the steel, drive up to Chino Valley, show Mark my design, buy him a few beers and have him weld up my sliders. One of these days, one of these days.

[Scott Brady]

Here are the details on the Demello bolt-on sliders:

Installation (http://www.expeditionswest.com/equipment/tacoma/sliders.html)

[bootzilla]

I was a little naive about sliders - for my unibody Land Rover, I had these really slick sliders that were bolt-on, but required no drilling, except of a hole in one of the drain plugs in the floor.

There were backing plates that slid into the casting holes in the unibody, then you just sandwiched the bar to the unibody structure - simple, and surprisingly strong...they were insanely expensive, though (I have an unused set if anybody is interested...).

So when I got the Trooper, I thought - "oh, I'll just go out and buy some sliders and bolt them up..." I just though that was the common way of doing it.

I wish someone made a bolt-on that requires limited or no drilling for the ol' Troop. - if you end up finding anything BigGreen - let us know, even if it is a custom job - the idea itself might help...

[calamaridog]

If the bank owns your truck I suggest bolt vs. weld, otherwise, it's just personal preference.

[asteffes]

So a good friend is fabbing some bolt-on sliders for my Tacoma. We didn't want to weld the frame out of concern that it might damage the factory heat treatment and create weak spots along the frame. We also didn't want to bolt through both vertical walls of the frame, which is fully-boxed in the front half on the '05+ Tacomas.

Instead, he came up with an idea to use the front body mount as an attachment point rather than bolting through the fully-boxed front frame members. I've seen sliders bolted through the box, and always thought that a hard impact to the front section of the slider(s) could result in the frame caving in a bit as the backing plate is pulled outward. Of course, with our design, the body mount could suffer damage, too. I'm not sure which is worse: snapping a body mount or causing the frame member to be not-a-box anymore.

I suppose one could engineer the attachment point to break before the frame gives way, but the idea of compressing the two vertical walls of the frame members didn't strike either of us as a good idea. We're still in the planning stages and I would appreciate any feedback.

[cruiseroutfit]

...We didn't want to weld the frame out of concern that it might damage the factory heat treatment and create weak spots along the frame...

What leads you to beleive the Toyota frame was "heat treated" in the first place? I find it hard to beleive Toyota does a post-fabrication heat treatment on the mild steel used in a frames construction. And even if they did, that does deliniate the use of weld... it just means you have to be more considerate of the type of heat treating that was perfomed.

There is no doubt in my mind that properly welded (once again many factors there), are going to cause little if any frame problems. In fact it could be argued that a properly built (there I go using that word again ;) slider system could in fact increase the strengh of the chassis. Afterall you are essentially adding an additional member.

I can buy the "easy to remove", "easy to service/paint" idea... but the "not safe" idea doesn't really fly IMHO.

[grouch]

When it come time for me it will be bolt on due to the undercoating I have on my truck. I don't want to have to grind it away just to weld it then recoat it. Seem like it would be easier to bolt the suckers on.

[devinsixtyseven]

old thread resurrection but i had a couple pennies to throw in...

the big differences arent really price or attachment (weld vs bolt). if youre buying them ready-made, you probably dont weld yourself...which means the price difference between weld/bolt will be eaten up paying someone else to weld them, unless you have a buddy to help you. weld vs bolt...plenty of people with both, plenty with failed designs from both camps.

the important thing is to use the frame (all of the frame, not just the main rails) to support the leverage produced by dropping your 6K# truck on a roughly 1' lever arm attached to the frame rail. improper gusseting (or lack thereof), small or too few attachment points, or improperly placed attachment points can (and eventually will) lead to a bent frame. avoid "can openers"...thin gussets on top...they put a lot of pressure on a very small area. if possible, angle your attachments to the frame and put a double gusset on the bottom to spread the load. if you have a weak frame (tundras are c-channel, not boxed like tacos), mount the attachments and gussets to a thicker piece of material and weld or bolt that piece to the frame to better spread the load. the sandwich method mentioned previously has been around a long time, it's common when building a roll cage in a unibody vehicle, and it works great for attaching sliders to a c-channel frame or unibody since it spreads the load better.

if you bolt them on and dont ever intend to take them off, glue 'em in place with the bolts (seam sealer or whatever). the rust stays out, and instead of two bolts in tension at each mount, you have a couple bolts backing up (in my case) a 6x6 adhesive patch.

if you diy or are inspecting different models, look for designs that use the crossmembers for support. the frame is much less likely to deform if there's something to counteract the torque about the frame at the attachment point.

the last thing is make sure the fore and aft ends are properly supported. the tail end in particular, if you have wheel to wheel sliders, can be difficult to link to the frame to the point where some manufacturers in past left that critical support point out of their design, resulting in bent sliders and crushed quarterpanels.

they dont need to be built heavy, nor do they need to be bolted vs welded, just properly designed and mated to the rig.

-sean

[waskillywabbit]

avoid "can openers"...thin gussets on top...they put a lot of pressure on a very small area.
-sean

I could not agree more. Adding gussets that are vertically in line with the slider mount create a point load, or "can opener" as you call it, if placed in line vertically either on top or bottom. The lbs/in are a high number. The key to adding gussets if you add them is to angle them as you say. To maximize the length you are spreading the load out across...gusset from the horizontal...or from the sides. The lbs/in are a lower number. :D

:elkgrin:

[HongerVenture]

Something I'm considering as I'm starting to design sliders for the T100 is the factor of future corrosion.

My reason for preferring bolt-on is that I don't want to weld to my frame as it requires paint removal and repainting. It seems like no matter how hard I try, I can't match the durability(and resistance to rust) of the frame paint Toyota originally put on my truck. In addition, if I weld my sliders on it will damage the paint/coating inside of the boxed frame... something I can't repaint and seal against corrosion. Indiana loves their road salt and the last thing I need is my frame corroding from the inside-out.

Bolt on will allow me to not disturb the factory frame painting inside the box as well as on the outside.

Now, if someone has a recommendation on how to keep the interior of the frame from becoming vulnerable to rust, I'm all ears. I'd much prefer welded on from a constructability standpoint.

Regards,
Joel

[david despain]

joel do you have any holes that you can use to gain access to the inside of the frame box sections? if so might i suggest to use waxoyl. http://www.robisonservice.com/servicedep/waxoyl.asp

its commonly used in the rover world.
speaking of rovers and sliders (to stay on topic).... this is an interesting subject. by far and away the most common style of sliders is bolt on and interestingly enough they dont even bolt to the frame but to the body. usually in a U shaped channel around the door sill. this is mostly just due to the fact that it is the easiest and best "return on investment". it is a compromise on strength but for 99% of people they work fine. i'm trying to remember if mcvick has them on his disco maybe he will post up if he does.

IMO the most important thing is not bolt or weld but proper design. in the rover case the most proper (but not perfect) design is bolt, and not even to the frame.

ps bootzilla was that a freelander?