Gauges....Which ones do we really need? [Archive]

Scenic WonderRunner

10-20-2005, 03:07 AM

MaddBaggins

10-20-2005, 03:16 AM

I don't have anything other than stock yet, but I think amps, tranny temp and oil temp would be good. When I get around to that a pillar mount would be sweet. Scott has a nice pillar mount on his Taco, and I think he is monitoring the 3 I mentioned. :cool:

Another Tolkien fan :wavey:

datrupr

10-20-2005, 04:20 AM

Mine has amps, oil pressure stock. That along with the other prerequisite guages. I think a Trans temp guage would be a good to have also though.

gjackson

10-20-2005, 04:42 AM

I think you hit the main ones on the head. I would say:
Amps, Oil Temp, Oil Press, Tach.
For an auto add Trans Oil Temp.

Then add whatever specifics you need for your vehicle -- If I boost my turbo and add a larger intercooler, then I'll add an exhaust manifold temp and boost pressure.

I'm using VDO guages at the moment. They served me well in off-road racing, so I think they're pretty tough.

One huge drawback of a Defender is the terrible dash and the lack of space to mount anything -- switches or guages. Don't currently know if anyone makes a pillar mount for the Defender. I'm not sure if there would be space. I took out the stock radio and relocated it to the tuffy box. Then put a panel over the stereo hole for guages and switches. I think I'm going to take that set up out and make a new mount so I can add more switches.

Help! It's a never ending process!! My truck will never be finished!!!

;-)

cheers

Graham
www.africaoverland.org

asteffes

10-20-2005, 06:19 AM

Don't forget:

Scenic WonderRunner

10-20-2005, 02:39 PM

Thanks for your input Graham,

I was searching this morning for VDO thanks to you! ...(duh!...why didn't I think of these!...I've only been looking at my own VDO on my 1972 Porsche 911 for the past 25+ years!)

And I found a site with great prices on VDO's

Plus you get to check out some very Kewl Swiss Army Vehicles while looking at VDO's!

Water Gauge Close Up:http://www.swissarmyvehicles.com/shpicfile.php?file=../data/pics/vdo3101071.jpg

Link to Website: http://www.swissarmyvehicles.com/vdo-gauges.php?cat=vdogauges&id=411

I think you hit the main ones on the head. I would say:
Amps, Oil Temp, Oil Press, Tach.
For an auto add Trans Oil Temp.

I'm using VDO guages at the moment. They served me well in off-road racing, so I think they're pretty tough.

;-)

cheers

Graham
www.africaoverland.org

Scenic WonderRunner

08-09-2008, 10:39 PM

madizell

08-09-2008, 11:18 PM

I have used a variety of gauges over the years, including VDO, but lately I find that the Auto Meters are making some very nice gauges. I have a Sport Comp programmable fuel gauge that works perfectly on my ancient CJ-5, since I could program the gauge to read off of the high and low ohms produced by the actual fuel level sender without having to rely solely on the sender producing exactly 73 to 10 ohms (one of the pre-programmed ranges) it was supposed to do. I use the full sweep 2 1/16th inch type. Very solid reading, no wiggles or shimmies, stepper motor driven.

Just ordered the Auto Meter Sport Comp II programmable water temperature gauge, full sweep, 2 1/16th inch because it has both a programmable overheat light and will turn one and off electrical devices at programmable points as well so that I can use it to trigger an electric fan.

another brand I have tried recently is Nordskog. I got digital fuel and digital oil pressure gauges. The oil gauge works fine. After two of the fuel gauges I gave up. The Nordskog tech was very helpful in trying to diagnose the issues with the fuel gauge, but we never could find a reason why the gauge would constantly fail in use. To reset the gauge you had to turn the key off then back on, and it would work for a few minutes, then default again to "00". It was not cheap and while it was nice, while it worked, to have the fuel read in digits (the tank is 10 gallons so the digital readout was literally the amount of fuel in percent of total and translated directly to gallons by mentally inserting a decimal in the readout), it was not nice to have to fool with it constantly and not be able to determine why the thing didn't want to work. I sent one back, got another, and it had similar problems. That was enough for me.

I also found that the digital gauges didn't have similar brightness, and didn't dim well with the lights turned on as they were supposed to do. The oil gauge dims so little that you have to look closely to see the difference, so it is too bright at night. The fuel gauge dimmed just fine, but that was all it did correctly.

So far, the Auto Meter gauges have worked brilliantly. I like the stepper motor function, which is stable as a rock. The readings stay put when you turn off the key. When you turn the key back on, they go to zero, then after about 1 or 2 seconds, track whatever reading is appropriate. Repeatability is perfect. The original fuel gauge and the digital one would wander up and down due to fuel sloshing. The analog Auto Meter gauge does not. The back lighting is excellent, and they dim appropriately with the lights turned on. I would recommend the Sport Comp or Sport Comp II gauges as excellent for the price and as good as any gauge out there.

These air motor gauges are so stable, I see no need for liquid filled damping.

One more note: I have had both amp and volt meters for years. I find that the volt meter is infinitely more useful than the ammeter, and if you have a winch, the ammeter is going to be useless anyway. I find that the ammeter really only tells me if the alternator is charging. I know this from the volt meter by reading a voltage higher than static volts, and while winching, the volt meter tells me what is going on across the battery terminals, something that the ammeter won't. I would suggest a volt meter over amps, and can't see a real purpose to having both at the same time.

Guinness44

08-09-2008, 11:50 PM

Took the shortcut, and installed the scangauge II. It also reads codes. Certainly doesnt replace all gauges, depends on the make of the vehicle.
Then you can play with it like a tripcomputer/fuelconsumption stuff.

Scenic WonderRunner

08-10-2008, 01:10 AM

MoGas

08-10-2008, 04:59 AM

Ever since my drag racing days, I have used AutoMeter exclusively. In my 80 I have a Pro Comp engine temperature gauge in a ghetto fabbed A-pillar pod. I have a Pro Comp oil pressure and engine coolant temperature gauges to install in the wife's 62 when I get a little time.

I work in Metrology and have tested the accuracy of all my other stock indicators (oil pressure and volts) and the oil pressure sender, and they are very accurate. I just don't like how the Zener diode holds the factory temperature indicator in the middle of the range for >30*F to where if you have a problem and it starts to climb, it may be too late.

Dave

ExpoMike

08-10-2008, 07:38 AM

I have used VDO, Autometer, Stewart Warner, Sun and other gauges. I have had good luck with all of them. Find the features, looks and prices you want to spend.

One thing I would very much caution against, do not put an AMP meter in, at least not inside the vehicle. In the old school days of low amp generators and early altenators, they were fine but with today's high output alts and high demand items, you are risking a fire.

An AMP meter is going to carry the full electrical load between your alt and your fuse block. You need to run a much heavier wire then other gauges and run a risk of it getting warm or if it shorts out, becoming an arc welder. Other guages don't have this problem because they are low amp usage and can use much lighter wire. In these cases, the wire will just burn through and disconnect.

In reality, an AMP meter will tell you the load of the vehicle and if the alt is keeping up with the load. It really doesn't give you any real usable info. A VOLT meter on the other hand will be very useful. Batteries need charging voltage of ~13-14.6 volts. If you are reading under 13 volts while the engine is running, likelihood your alt or battery is going out. Useful. Does it really mater to know if running your radio and A/C is pulling 30 Amps or if the battery is being charged at 14 volts?

Please stay away from an AMP meter. You 4runner is much too nice to see it up in smoke.

BTW, I don't have anyone to recommend for fabbing a gauge mount but I have a good person for doing the wiring part. He's the only person I will let touch any of my vehicles. If interested, I can PM you the info.

L8R,
Mike

Spikepretorius

08-10-2008, 09:44 AM

For years VDO have been the benchmark but locally they are just too expensive (exchange rate). Auto Meter are very common here, in race cars too, and work fine.

I no longer bother with an amp guage. Modern vehicles have high output altenators and the amp guages are usually limited to 40amps. I use a volt guage instead and it gives me enough info to know what's happening.

I reckon in your vehicle you'd need Volts, Oil pressure, and Vacuum, and if you don't have OEM then a Tach as well. Anything more than that is just Christmas lights really

Scenic WonderRunner

08-10-2008, 10:00 AM

VDO..............?!!!!

I Have VDO.....ALL over the place!

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i156/ScenicWonderRunner/2006_07051972Porsche9110025-2.jpg

Just in the wrong Vehicle!!!!!

..............hehe!:jump:

VDO...........IS.........Awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks!

(posted all in fun and no animals where harmed while typing this post!)

.

Antichrist

08-10-2008, 12:06 PM

My thoughts on gauges in general.
I don't like digital gauges because you actually have to "read" them and this takes your eyes off the road for too long. Plus your brain has to process what you've read. "220 degress...let's see, it shat too hihg? not, that's about right."
With analog gauges once you determine where the needle is during normal operation, a glance will tell you if it's in the normal operating range.
If you pick your gauges carefully, the display range, you can get most, if not all, your gauges so your normal reading is at 12 o'clock (or 3, depending on how they are mounted) so that an even shorter glance at them tells you if everything is normal.
While harder to install, I prefer mechanical gauges over electrical
Water temp
Oil Pressure
Oil Temp
Volt meter
Boost pressure if you have a turbo
Vacuum gauge(to monitor air filter flow resistance)
Transmission oil temp for auto box
Fuel gauge is always nice ;)

Grim Reaper

08-10-2008, 01:44 PM

I can't find the picture but I saw a REALLY nice gage install on the first gen 4Runner.

You are talking about duplicating existing gages in the cluster. What this guy did is swapped out all the exiting gages for a quality after market gage.

The way the cluster is made it is just a matter of fabricating the backing plate to replace the face of the existing gages. VDO sells a nice kit that has Speedo, Tach, Oil pressure, water temp, fuel level, Volt. Couple surface mount lights for High beam turn signals and Check engine and you are set. The extra gages for tranny temp, oil temp were installed in a stripped out tilt a whirl gage pod on the top of the dash like you are talking about.

Ahhhh Found some. The one I was looking for is a little cleaner than the first one.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=589510&highlight=dash+pictures
There is two more links at the top of that post.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=455011&highlight=switches

Guinness44

08-10-2008, 04:06 PM

oops missread the year of your truck. It works well on the 98, not on the 94.
:(. Another not traditional way, to get some temps (OK, you got to stop and get outside:). We carry an infrared temp gun.... lots of good diagnostics to be done with that, temperature wise.

Spikepretorius

08-10-2008, 04:21 PM

Vacuum gauge(to monitor air filter flow resistance)

I use a vacuum gauge on gasoline motors to monitor fuel economy

madizell

08-10-2008, 05:37 PM

Vacuum varies constantly and is one of those values that you have to study in trend to know anything of use. I would not bother.

ntsqd

08-11-2008, 12:07 AM

I don't really think gauges are all that great of an idea. They're wonderful for diagnosing a problem, but excepting the voltmeter a light will alert you to a problem far faster than any gauge will. VDO also sells variously calibrated switches (temperature or pressure) for turning lights on or off.

Some factory analog ammeters can be converted to read voltage. I have zero use for an ammeter mounted in a vehicle.

Late model diesel trucks come with a flow depression gauge fitted to the air filter can. I know my friend Rod's DuraMax did and I've seen them on PSD's too. They're usually one of the casualties of someone mistakenly fitting a K&N filter. Finding a take-off and fitting it to your air filter can would indicate when the filter is starting to get plugged.

Scenic WonderRunner

08-11-2008, 01:23 AM

ntsqd........

Please help me understand why gauges are not a good idea.

Let me give you just one example of why I think I need them.

My stock Toyota water temp. gauge is just a "dummy/idiot gauge"......that is, it just has a H high~C cold range. If the red arm starts to swing toward the "H"......I have No Idea how hot my engine water temp is getting. All I know is that it's getting.....well....um......"H"......!

But if I have a Normal gauge that actually "Reads" the temp. by the numbers, then I will know Exactly what "Number" my water temp. is at. Same for oil pressure.....tranny temp....etc.

I would rather........."Know".........!:beer:

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i156/ScenicWonderRunner/2008_0127AnzaBadlandsPumpkin0037.jpg

By the way..........

Now that I have my new engine, my Oil Pressure is at the 3/4 mark! But I have No Idea what that is, according to my stock Toyota gauges!

(sorry if I made way too many dots....I think I need an SWR dot Gauge!....hehe)

.

madizell

08-11-2008, 03:07 AM

Finding a take-off and fitting it to your air filter can would indicate when the filter is starting to get plugged.

So would looking at the filter during periodic maintenance.

HenryJ

08-11-2008, 03:11 AM

Late model diesel trucks come with a flow depression gauge fitted to the air filter can. I know my friend Rod's DuraMax did and I've seen them on PSD's too. They're usually one of the casualties of someone mistakenly fitting a K&N filter. Finding a take-off and fitting it to your air filter can would indicate when the filter is starting to get plugged.
Late model GM trucks and utilities still use them. I installed one on my truck.

http://www.s-10crewcab.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10006/airgage.jpg

This is an old picture. The IAT sensor has been moved to this position, a pre-cleaner installed and the indicator moved down stream to the stock IAT sensor location.

blueeyeddevil

08-11-2008, 03:50 AM

Does anyone from San Diego know of a Shop, or a Dude, that can help fabricate a gauge pod kind of like this and install/hook up the gauges?

I'm interested in a 4 or 5 slot pod.

Some built in rocker light switch's might be cool too!

Thanks

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n98/SDHQOR/FJ/DSC06665.jpg

.
Yeah, I know a guy that does that kind of stuff. But, he lives in the Greater PHX area.Goes buy the name of the Blueeyeddevil on several forums. Send him a PM.

Antichrist

08-11-2008, 11:22 AM

So would looking at the filter during periodic maintenance.The ones I was thinking of are dash mounted and have been in use in large trucks for decades. For your average driver they aren't needed. But for someone operating in extreme dusty conditions they can be useful. It would be way down the list though.
I didn't mean a dial type gauge. They are more of a flowmeter.
http://www.technilube.com/pics/wix/wix_remote_mount.jpg

Antichrist

08-11-2008, 11:28 AM

I don't really think gauges are all that great of an idea. They're wonderful for diagnosing a problem, but excepting the voltmeter a light will alert you to a problem far faster than any gauge will.No. A gauge, if used properly, will alert you to an impending problem. I light will alert you to when a problem has already reached a dangerous stage.
A gauge says, "Things are getting out of the norm, you may want to think about changing what you're doing before it gets out of hand."
A light says, "Holy crap! You better shut down now!"
For lights only you'd want two senders, one to light a yellow for warning, one with a another setting for a red light for danger.

Terracoma

08-12-2008, 03:33 AM

(sorry if I made way too many dots....I think I need an SWR dot Gauge!....hehe)

Hey, as long as ExPo doesn't start charging extra for additional punctuation, I say 'carry-on, sir!'

:jump:

R_Lefebvre

08-12-2008, 04:53 PM

I use Autometer gauges on my track car. All are full sweep, some are mechanical and some are electronic. The Boost gauge is mechanical, because they're cheaper and it's easy to route a vacuum tube into the car. I also use one of the narrowband O2 sensor gauges, but I am actually feeding it with a 0-1V signal from my wideband meter so that the gauge displays a wideband signal.

That being said, some people say narrowband O2 is useless, but I actually did a lot of tuning using it before I got the wideband. The engine *should* be operating in the narrowband range 90+% of the time you're using it anyway.

For fuel pressure, I used an electronic gauge because it's not the best idea to have a fuel line coming into the cabin. ;) The same can be said for oil pressure.

ntsqd

08-12-2008, 06:07 PM

No. A gauge, if used properly, will alert you to an impending problem. I light will alert you to when a problem has already reached a dangerous stage.
A gauge says, "Things are getting out of the norm, you may want to think about changing what you're doing before it gets out of hand."
A light says, "Holy crap! You better shut down now!"
For lights only you'd want two senders, one to light a yellow for warning, one with a another setting for a red light for danger.
No. A light with the correctly chosen sender value, will call your otherwise non-existent attention to the problem. A gauge can not do that, all it can do is indicate that there may be a problem. I don't care how often you think you scan the gauges, problems always happen between those scans. If you are involved in demanding driving you very likely won't see the gauge until too late either. Most gauges I put under the hood where they are more useful for diagnosing the problem. The exception is a volt meter. That I'm aware of there is no good warning light method for this other than the OE charge indicator light, which really only tells you one thing.

AFAIC any aftermarket gauge under a couple hundred dollars isn't going to show you a real number consistently. If they did, wouldn't they publish accuracy values? Industrial gauges do this, visit McMaster's page. All of their gauges have this info in the catalog. In the past I was totally unsuccessful in finding this information for automotive intended aftermarket gauges.
If you're lucky one of these gauges will repeat reasonably well. Short of annually calibrating the gauges the most that you can hope for is to spot trends. You can only really do this over long periods of time. The even not so average driver is not very likely to immediately spot a rapid change if the driving is demanding or exactly the converse. I'm not abusing people, I'm being a realist.

The advantage of the air filter depression gauge isn't to replace proper preparation of the vehicle before leaving. It is to allow inspection while out in the field without disturbing the air filter or opening up the system to grit egress.

DBS311

08-12-2008, 08:32 PM

I don't necessarily agree with the above statement. To not recommend using a gauge because the "majority" of people might not look at them is a little far fetched. That and the fact that most factory gauges are the "if you see the gauge hit the H, it's already too late." So many people out there from professional to amateur racers and enthusiasts have used aftermarket gauges with much success, myself included. While it may be true that SOME sub $200 gauges won't give repeatable readings, I think they are much better than the factory "guess what your temp is". For example, I had a vehicle an aftermarket water temp gauge and while driving through the mountains in the dead of summer, I could watch the temps climb when the vehicle was under load and slowly come down when cruising on the descents. The factory gauge remained dead still the entire time. Personally, I'd rather have a little more information being passed to me even if it is 10-15 degrees off.

I like having water temp, oil pressure and tranny temp (for autos) in the cab, and fuel pressure under the hood. My dual battery kit monitors volts, so I don't need to worry about that.

H2O_Doc

08-12-2008, 08:44 PM

I'm pretty sure there is a man-law that says you can't have too many gauges. I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter what they do, so long as they move at some point and you can tap them in a panic only to find that your flux capacitor is, in fact, not melting down.

If I could swing it, my dash would look like something out of the Millenium Falcon. Or maybe the following would look good in the Xterra:

ntsqd

08-12-2008, 09:23 PM

I knew going in that mine was not the popular opinion. You can tell how much that bothers me. :)

I've never seen anything that would indicate that OE gauges are any more or less accurate than anything from the aftermarket. What about VDO who sells in both markets?

Characteristically a single point switch is more accurate than a range sender for a gauge since it only is responsible for one point in the whole operating range. If you choose the switch to be the value that you want to be alerted at, then that is what it will do. A switch may have some variance from it's advertised set point that is a product of mass production, but it will consistently switch at that set point.

The road race cars that I was employed at one time to work on without exception only had 3 gauges. Oil pressure, water temperature, and a tach. All three where installed such that the ideal reading had the needle pointing straight up. If the needle wasn't pointing straight up then there was a problem. One of the cars had a piece of black electrical tape on the gauge faces. When the orange needle was in the normal range it was not even visible. How to turn a gauge into a light.

I'm quite sure that you can have too many gauges. This guy is a prime offender:
http://www.broncofix.com/albums/Broncos-at-Raffle/DSCN5218.jpg

http://www.broncofix.com/albums/Broncos-at-Raffle/DSCN5217.jpg

DBS311

08-12-2008, 11:07 PM

Ok, if your dash looks like that, then I agree with you. There is simply way too much to pay attention to there. Looks like it's in an EB, correct?

At least we agree on the main gauges......water temp and oil pressure (and tach if you don't have it). The only other must have for me is the tranny temp gauge. In my FJ62, when you see the "hot light" come on for the tranny, it's already toast.

ntsqd

08-13-2008, 12:31 AM

It is an EB spotted at Moab. Broncofix has it in their gallery somewhere.

I'll venture that the issue with the trans light is not the light or the switch, but the switch point chosen for the sender. I'd look into replacing it with a switch that turns on the light at the point when you want to take notice of what the temperature is. VDO lists a huge range of temperture switches and plugging their p/n's into Summit usually yields a price. May also be able to cross it into a NAPA number as they catalog another set of wide ranging temperature set point switches.

Scenic WonderRunner

08-13-2008, 03:54 AM

ntsqd...........

Instead of continuing to HiJack my Thread...........

Why don't you start your Own Thread Titled,

"Gauges.......Why we don't need them and they are a waste of time and money....and don't even help you!!".:jump:

.

lowenbrau

08-13-2008, 04:23 AM

I watch the three in the top cluster regularly. Boost, Pyro and water temp. I can easily push any of them into a zone where engine damage is imminent. I would not want to try to rely on idjit lights. As far as the factory gauges go. My factory H2O temp gauge is happily in the middle at 220F. I haven't pushed it to see just how hot before it gets to the red.

I use Autometer because they have 24 volt gauges and are cheap and easy to find. They are not, however, the best gauges out there. Pyros seem to fail about every 24 months. Someday I'll settle on my dash layout and buy a set from Westach (http://www.westach.com/) because their stuff is all custom you can put up to four needles in a gauge and calibrate them so your ideal operating range is in the center of each as was mentioned earlier.

MuddyMudskipper

08-13-2008, 07:04 AM

Gauges....Which ones do we really need?

I want to ad some gauges to my 4Runner so I can really know whats going on with my engine, etc.

Which gauges do you favor and why?
........ (oil pressure/oil temp/water temp/trans temp/amps/volts/girlfriend crabb-O-meter!.....hehe just checking if you are really reading all of this! ;) )............etc.

Which of these do we really need to help us watch and protect our investment?

What brand is known for being a good value, yet reliable? (what do you use?)

Is "Liquid Filled" a good choice for better reliability for off road?

Mounting locations? I like the Pillar mount, but I'm having trouble finding a source for these.

I've been searching on the net tonight and found a brand called "Auto Meter". They have several styles to choose from. I kind of like their "Pro Comp" and "Carbon Fiber" Styles.

......any thoughts?

I've used Autometer (ProComp for race car SportComp for street/track cars) and VDO meters in a few of my cars and have had no issues with either. I'd say get whatever meters fit your budget and that you feel are necessary to give you piece of mind.

ProComps are probaby overkill for your application and I can't imagine that the vibration your truck encounters warrants the use of a liquid filled guage (great for Outlaw cars). The SportComp or even the AutoGage (by Autometer) meters would probably fit the bill nicely for your intended purpose.

For fuel pressure, I used an electronic gauge because it's not the best idea to have a fuel line coming into the cabin. ;) The same can be said for oil pressure.

Most organized racing bodies won't let you pass tech with a mechanical fuel gauge running into the cab of the vehicle. For this reason Autometer makes the High Pressure Isolator (#5282 (http://autometer.com/cat_accessoriesdetail.aspx?vid=164)). This isolator is compatible with with gasoline, oil, and antifreeze, but cannot be used with alcohol or nitro-methane fuels. As the name implies, the part isolates potentially harmful liquids to outside of the cab while maintaining that accuracy of a mechanical meter.

Autometer also sells the mech f/p meters with the isolator as a kit (http://autometer.com/search_results.aspx?q=isolator). .

Harald Hansen

08-13-2008, 07:55 AM

Are mechanical gauges even worthwhile anymore? I just have a hard time imagining that modern electronic gauges offer less precision than a mechanical gauge. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Antichrist

08-13-2008, 11:34 AM

No. A light with the correctly chosen sender value, will call your otherwise non-existent attention to the problem. hmmm. Let's use water temp as an example.
Let's say your normal temp is 200 degrees.
Your engine damage temp is 400 degrees.
Your warning light comes on at 300 degrees.
You're driving along and your warning light comes on.
Does that mean your temp has slowly risen due to load and has stabalized at 305 degrees? Or that it has suddenly pegged at 450 degrees?
So with a light it's a crap shoot whether it's safe to keep driving or not.

If someone wants to operate by guesswork, I won't tell them not to. I personally don't like to.

ntsqd

08-13-2008, 03:06 PM

hmmm. Let's use water temp as an example.
Let's say your normal temp is 200 degrees.
Your engine damage temp is 400 degrees.
Your warning light comes on at 300 degrees.
You're driving along and your warning light comes on.
Does that mean your temp has slowly risen due to load and has stabalized at 305 degrees? Or that it has suddenly pegged at 450 degrees?
So with a light it's a crap shoot whether it's safe to keep driving or not.

If someone wants to operate by guesswork, I won't tell them not to. I personally don't like to.
If my normal operating temp is 200* then the light switch would be chosen to come on between 210* and 215* The whole point of a light is to actively indicate that something isn't right as early as possible. Anyone who choses a coolant temp switch to come on at 300* (F?) is very poorly informed.

I never said that gauges don't have some value. I said that they aren't consistently accurate, don't trust their numbers unless calibrated annually. I said that it is an exceptional driver who will always catch the onset of a problem every time by only using gauges.

A light is much more pro-active in alerting the driver to a problem.

Antichrist

08-13-2008, 05:02 PM

If my normal operating temp is 200* then the light switch would be chosen to come on between 210* and 215* The whole point of a light is to actively indicate that something isn't right as early as possible. Anyone who choses a coolant temp switch to come on at 300* (F?) is very poorly informed.Those were even number examples for easier comprehension of the point. The actual temperature is entirely irrelevant to the issue.

I never said that gauges don't have some value.

I don't really think gauges are all that great of an idea.

Spikepretorius

08-13-2008, 05:09 PM

In my current diesel truck I have an aviation type EGT gauge fitted with a programmable warning circuit which I've wired to a light. The light come on when the temperature get's within 50degrees of my self imposed maximum.
Best of both worlds. The light draws my attention BEFORE there's a problem if I've been slacking and not paying attention to the gauge.

R_Lefebvre

08-14-2008, 11:39 AM

I think that's the way to go as well. I wish all gauges had a warning light you could program, because both sides of this argument are very valid. The last trackday I was at, I completely lost boost control. I was way too busy driving to see that my A pillar mounted boost gauge was indicating a problem. And it manifested itself very quickly. I realized the problem only when boost go so high that the engine management shut the party down because the boost pressure was off the scale of the MAP sensor. I was very lucky the engine didn't grenade.

Anybody could tisk tisk about my not checking the gauges, but I'd suggest those people have never driven a car at maximum effort on track.

All of this discussion about what racecars do ignores the practice used by modern professional race cars who have enough money to spend on the best equipment. They now employ digital dashboards, which are programmable to show only engine RPM normally. They monitor all the engine functions and if something is out of range, they will flash an alarm and display the relevant value. This is a high-tech example of the dual warning system.

At the very highest levels, there isn't any display at all, but race engineers are in the pits monitoring things through telemetry and just relay any important info to the driver via radio.

The point being, even the very best drivers in the world have found it impossible to monitor gauges properly.

Carlyle

08-15-2008, 02:38 PM

I have a total of seven gauges in my truck and would have to say most of them are valuable. EGT, boost press, oil pres, fuel pres, oil temp, tran temp & volts. I look at EGT and boost the most and the boost gauge let me know of an imminent turbo failure and I was able to get back to town. Fuel pres is critical, especially on this 6.0 diesel... Volts will tell you when your alternator is acting up. The rest are self explanatory and I'm glad I have them. I don't constantly look at them, but after 100,000 miles I can glance quickly and know all is well or not. For any type of expedition travel off the beaten path, gauges are essential as factory ones are no more than idiot lights that come on too late.

Spikepretorius

08-15-2008, 02:55 PM

Consider using aviation gauges. There's quite a range to choose from and many of them are great for vehicles.
My TC1 for example can work with up to four sensors. The only downside is that the more sensors you add the smaller the display becomes.

Check this site for example.
http://www.mglavionics.co.za/
Under "smart singles" my EGT gauge is the TC1. I see they have a new range of Infinity singles as well.
Picture yourself with a nice bank of those beauties plonked on your dash. RayBans optional. ;)

madizell

08-17-2008, 01:38 AM

All of the gauges I have used in the past ten years have been consistent (reasonable precision) as well as reasonably accurate, with the exception of the problems I have had with the digital gauges, mentioned earlier or elsewhere. Auto Meter gauges have proved to be both consistent in terms of repeatability (precision) and show values that comport well with reality (accuracy). Don't know why you have had problems with gauges.

Warning lights are for drawing attention to problems, not for relaying usable information. Example, you have pre-set your warning light to come on for whatever it is you are tracking, and the light is NOT on. Is there a problem?

You don't know, because the light is not on. Perhaps the light is working, perhaps not. The sender could be dead. The wires could be broken or disconnected. The light could be burned out. How are you going to know?

If you feel you must have warning lights because you don't trust your gauge scanning, buy gauges with warning lights built in and set them where you want them, so you have both a constant read out of value and a warning light in case you forget to look at your gauges.

ntsqd

08-17-2008, 02:22 AM

I did not see it as a hijack. You asked which ones do we really need.
For a gauge pod like what you're looking for try looking up sheet metal shops. Specifically look for those that do work beyond HVAC stuff. Were you more local I could recommend one in Oxnard and another in Carpenteria.

I never said that gauges don't have some value.

I don't really think gauges are all that great of an idea.

EXACTLY. I do not think they are all that great of an idea, but that does not mean that I think they have no value. I've pretty much said and re-said my reasons why. I'll leave it at that.

As to whether the light works or not, there are ways to simply test that, but ignoring that, how do you know that the guage isn't lying to you too? Simple truth is that a reading on the guage only means that the gauge system is functioning, not that it is indicating correctly. Having seen needle on the oil pressure gauge that the PO installed in my new to me VW diesel clear back around to zero means that it is indicatiing, but I've no faith that it is indicating correctly.

At the aircraft level of quality (& cost) I would trust them to be accurate. They very likely have spec sheets that tell what their midspan and full range error percentages are, or that info is available from the mfg. Unless educated on the topic the gauge(s) that most people are likely to buy have no such sheet and therefore have no guarantee of accuracy. Good or bad, what you get is what you get. And how would you know?

IllianaXJ

08-17-2008, 02:46 PM

My XJ has most of the gauges I need stock; Tach, Volts, Fuel Level, Oil Press. and Coolant Temp. I plan to add a Trans. temp gauge eventually. Chrysler was nice enough to make the gauges actually have numbers on them, opposed to H or L.

In my old XJ, I mounted a trans. temp gauge and an air pressure gauge to monitor my OBA tank pressure. I run a CO2 cyl. in the new XJ, so no air pressure gauge is needed.

I installed a cheap mechanical trans. temp gauge in my Expedition as well to monitor temps while towing. It may not be 100% accurate 100% of the time, but the Expy doesn't have an idiot light for trans temp, so it's better than nothing.

madizell

08-17-2008, 11:38 PM

I have never seen anything to document that aircraft (at least GA) systems and equipment are more reliable than similar systems and equipment available for automotive applications. There is a difference in cost, to be sure, but the additional costs attendant to aircraft systems arises from FAA certification, not from costs of construction or levels of engineering. Indeed, many of the components on GA aircraft can easily be replaced at NAPA -- except they won't pass FAA inspection because they lack a certificate. There are numberless examples of exactly identical components made by exactly the same people with exactly the same parts selling both as aircraft parts and as automotive parts. One part will have a certificate and cost 5 times as much as the other, but there will be no other difference.

Arguing that gauges lie about details is pointless, in my opinion. Lights, gauges, all rely on senders and wiring similarly subject to error. It is like arguing the difference between a gauge and a meter. The technical parameters for determining the usefulness of a readout are accuracy and precision, which are not the same thing. None of the gauge, idiot light, sender, or sensor folks offer information on accuracy or precision. My guess is that it is not important within the market, and would be dependent in any event on details largely outside anyone's control outside of the experiment on which the accuracy or precision are predicated.

For example, you may have a gauge which gives you a high degree of repeatability (precision) so long as the input signal is within a related range. That is, X volts yields Y reading time after time. Fine, but how does the gauge manufacturer control the sender signal in your vehicle? Even if you use one of their own senders, manufacturing tolerance allows for small differences. Are these small differences important? Generally not. Does an erroneous reading on a gauge mean that the gauge is defective or imprecise? Not necessarily. But without data to go on and the ability to measure sender data, who can calibrate a gauge made by anyone?

I have flown a lot of aircraft over the past 37 years, and I had no more idea of the accuracy or precision of the gauges on those aircraft than on any car I have driven. For the most part whether the read out is accurate or not is less important than if the read out is within an acceptable range, and will reflect significant, important, or dangerous changes reliably. If a reading of 10 is good to go and a reading of 5 or less is not, whether the readout is 5 or 4 is moot -- both are unacceptable. You can quibble over the difference between 6 and 5 in that scenario, but the point is meaningless if you have been operating consistently at 10 for years and suddenly you see a 6. it is the 4 point drop that has meaning, not the exact value of the readout. If the difference between a 6 and a 5 is critical to you, stop and verify.

Our vehicles are so forgiving for the most part that we can safely drive them and ignore the dials and lights. That we don't scan gauges while driving cars the same way we would while flying a plane is an apples/oranges comparison. If the engine quits on the car, we get out and see what's up. If the engine quits on a plane, we usually have only a few minutes left to contemplate our sins. Still, it is not the scanning of gauges that keeps either motor running, so I tend to think the argument about lights and gauges is not technically based, but rather based in personal choice and a lack of understanding of what each can do.

Grim Reaper

08-25-2008, 11:42 AM

Actually I side to some extent with ntsqd. I think a gage is great but after loosing oil pressure in my old Pontiac I think a combo of gage and a light might be a better solution.

When my Pontiac laid down the still enabled idiot light is what caught my eye, Then I confirmed a problem with the gage.

I watched a buddy idle in a very twisted up position for a while and asked him what his oil pressure gage said. Zero!

One friend has his idiot light tied into a piezo buzzer after similar experience.

I have been planning on adding a idiot light to my oil pressure circuit on the 4Runner. I have the switch but neglected to install it when I installed the motor. I have to lift the engine up and remove a motor mount to get it installed into a existing port.

Gurkha

08-25-2008, 12:44 PM

I have oil pressure, turbo boost, EGT, tach, rpm and amp, apart from that I fully concur with madizell's point that gauges lie and can't be trusted as the final word. VDO senders for temp in MBs are notorious for going off whack as they age and sending wrong temp signals which mostly result in high temp readings of a perfectly normal engine. This would create un-necessary panic in their owners and this vagary is also documented in the MB forums. So its better to use common sense plus gauges. Fuel senders in diesels are another issue, till today, MB or Toyota engines can't design a properly working one. Due to the nature of diesels these expensive float cum senders in the tank would invariably start giving wrong readings about the fuel level leaving many stranded in the wrong place at the wrong time. Usually they would go bad and show the tank as half full when in reality you only got a few liters left.