All around kayaks...

[1speedlos]

I know there's going to be compromises, but my wife and i are looking for a couple of kayaks for our tour of North America. We're new to it, but we'd like to find boats that would allow us to run class III+ stuff (after instruction, of course!) but still tool around on flat water.
Any suggestions?

Carlos

[Gear]

My take is you need to pick one or the other. A kayak that is good for class III water is not going to track very well on flat water. If your flat water travels are less than a mile it really should not matter. In this case I would go for the river boat that fits your size and needs best.

Another analogy, your asking for a downhill mountain bike that works well on the road. Yes the mountain bike will work on the road but you would not want to pedal this 40 pound bike very far.

My take is by the best kayak for what you really intend to do. This in the long run will bring more enjoyment to the sport. When I started out Kayaking in 92 I went straight to a fiberglass sea kayak. I am still paddling today! Those that chose to purchase a short plastic sit on top for a tour kayak have probably moved on to different hobbies.

Good Luck!

[paulj]

If you are thinking about boats for a long, cross country trip, there are a few things to consider:
- will you be leaving the vehicle unattended for significant periods of time? Boat theft is not a trivial issue.

- paddling rivers, and especially ones with rapids, requires some sort of shuttle to get you and the boats back to your starting point. For a couple with one vehicle, and both wanting to paddle, that can be difficult to arrange. Signing up with a tour company that provides both boats and shuttle could be worth while.

- are you thinking about longer paddles, possible on the ocean, where a long, faster boat would be a big advantage?

- or is your paddling most likely to be after dinner tours of the lake you have camped by? A decent inflatable is my boat of choice for this type of paddling.

[cjmitchell5]

I like mine. Wilderness Systems Tarpon 140 sit-on, it's designed more as a fishing platform but I've had it in everything from fast rivers, flat lakes, swamps, and north shore surf. I've also used my wife's boat a few times, Wilderness Systems Tsunami 120 sit-in. A little small for me, cramped cockpit, and on the aforementioned north shore surf I discovered when a sit in kayak fills with water it doesn't work well. :)

Ask Nullifier on here, he's the kayak guru.

[corbin8or]

I know of some high volume white water boats for sale in Phoenix!

[Nullifier]

What you are really interested in is called a crossover kayak, Typically these yaks are about 12'. They feature a med size cockpit with thigh braces a fair amount of rocker with a retractible skeg in the stern to help tracking in flat water. Most will feature a stern hatch and bulkhead for flotation and storage however I reccomend a bow floatation bag as well.

here are a few links

dagger Black water 12 (http://www.dagger.com/product/index/product_homepage/recreational_touring/blackwater/blackwater_12/)

Prion Yukon (http://www.wildnet.com/tour.asp?name=yukon)

[kellymoe]

If you are intent on paddling class III water then there is really no choice but to go with a river kayak. There are longer river kayaks that would be fine for 1-2 day flat water trips, I dont know of any sea kayaks that would perform well on a river. The risks of using a touring kayak on a river are much greater than using a river kayak on flat water.

Prijon used to make a pretty good compromise kayak, longer with storage space an tracked pretty good.

Dagger is another company to look at. There are tons of kayak makers now compared to even a few years ago. I have a feeling that after some instruction you are going to get hooked on whitewater kayaking, it is so much fun and very addictive.

Have fun.

Doh!!! Sorry I see Nulifier recomended the same.

[kerry]

I think Nullifier's recommendations are good. Years ago, my wife and I owned Phoenix Isere's. It was a touring kayak capable or running wide open Class III but not that good on technical Class III, so it kind of depends on what kind of Class III water you are running.
If you're thinking of buying used, old school plastic river boats are available very cheaply and might fit the bill. You can pick up Perception Quests or similar old high volume river boats for $50-100. Adapt a skeg and you have an acceptable lake/sea boat although not something you'd want to paddle long distances.

[dnellans]

I have a 13 foot ocean kayak prowler sit on top. I regularly use this for lake fishing, I have also done 5 days flat water tours down the Green river in southern utah on it. Its long enough that its acceptable for paddling into the wind, and tracking on a lake. I have no problem running it straight through class II riffles and dragging it against rocks if need-be in the shallows. I've only taken it through what i would call "moderate" class III's and without some sort of thigh straps I wouldn't recommend anyone try and take a sit on top with gear through anything particularly technical. If its a rapid that you can shoot fairly straight through, you're fine as long as you don't mind getting wet but a 13+ foot boat just isn't meant to turn fast to avoid obstacles. The real decision when using a boat like this is that any kayak carrying "stuff" for a tour - if you dunk you're going to be unhappy, end of story.

I'd definitely recommend a 12/13 foot sit on top for general purpose paddling and some touring where you might not want to take a more fragile but faster fiberglass sea kayak. but i wouldn't want to be paddling still water for more than a few days in mine, if you've got flat 2-3mph rivers helping then you can go for a long time in a boat this size/girth

[wesel123]

I had a Dagger Crossover. Its actually rated to handle up to Class III (has interior support to do so). It also has a skag that can be rotated up to get out of the way of the rocks. I think they are discontinued but see them up for sale time to time.

Tracking wise is pretty good. Took it on a trip down the Colorado with no complaints. Hauls a lot too.

Some reviews:
http://www.paddling.net/Reviews/showReviews.html?prod=741

http://www.kayaknews.ca/yak/boats/DaggerCrossover.shtml7

[cjmitchell5]

coming from pure river boats to my sit-on, I'm very pleased. I've been surprised how stable it is w/ thigh straps and my more importantly more comfortable and my legs get tanned :D

[compactcamping]

If you want to go the hardshell route, I like the Prijon Combi 359
http://www.wildnet.com/images/boats/Combi/combi-s.jpg
http://www.wildnet.com/images/boats/combi/Combi-t.jpg

If you are thinking a packable one, look at the Aire Tibutary Sawtooth
http://www.theboatpeople.com/images/iks/Sawtooth.jpg

[Nullifier]

If you want to go the hardshell route, I like the Prijon Combi 359
http://www.wildnet.com/images/boats/Combi/combi-s.jpg
http://www.wildnet.com/images/boats/combi/Combi-t.jpg

If you are thinking a packable one, look at the Aire Tibutary Sawtooth
http://www.theboatpeople.com/images/iks/Sawtooth.jpg

The prijon looks like a nice boat is the stern fitted with a Drop skeg. It looks like that from the pic. Prijon has always made great boats. I like the way there boats come out stiff due to the blow modling process rather then roto

[compactcamping]

The Combi 359 does have an optional skeg available. I've owned a few Prijons over the year, nice boats and very comfortable seats.

[kerry]

I agree that blowmolded plastics are much stiffer and better than rotomolded. I have blowmolded and rotomolded barrels and the blowmolded are much stronger. I also have a couple of Prijon Seayaks. Very nice but not a class III boat.

[T.Low]

I would encourage you to take your lessons before purchasing boats. It will alter many of your preconceptions about paddling and you will be better prepared to make a purchasing decision.

[pnorvell]

I just went from a Wilderness Systems Tarpon 140 sit-on-top to Jackson Hero. I love, love , love the WS Tarpon, but it was really big. I wanted to get more into whitewater so that's why I am selling them. You're not going to find a more stable boat than a WS Tarpon, that's if you want a sit-on-top.

Just had 2 Wilderness Systems for sale on here with all the accessories. Only one boat is left. Let me know if you're interested.

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w304/pnorvell/P5050001-1.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w304/pnorvell/P5050002-1.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w304/pnorvell/ubbhero8450blue.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w304/pnorvell/P4210034.jpg

Peter

[kellymoe]

That Jackson looks like a good all around river boat, should do every thing well. Looks like it would be perfect for creeks.

[pnorvell]

That Jackson looks like a good all around river boat, should do every thing well. Looks like it would be perfect for creeks.

I love it! Of course I'm brand new to whitewater kayaking, but have always enjoyed whitewater rafting. I'm looking forward to getting into it!

Peter

[upcruiser]

That Prijon looks sweet. This crossover kayak question has been one i have thought about alot. Older river boats can make a decent compromise. I get ribbed on by my friends all the time for my boat but it actually works quite brilliantly. I'm running the Perception Dancer XT that I have now had for 15 years!. Its a touch under 11 feet long and definately from the old school design of whitewater boats. It will handle just about anything you can throw at it on a river and yet tours decently too. Obviously there are compromises. I can't play like a modern and much smaller river boat, and it takes some practice to paddle and keep it tracking straight. Honestly though once you get the hang of it, it works fine. Paddling with friends in sea kayaks it is only a touch slower on the water suprisingly (on long days it is alot more noticeable for sure) but I use it all the time for touring. Also storage is limited but if I pack smart I can do overnighters in it for sure. It really does it all for me. Yeah, I still want a new sea kayak but for somthing to throw on top of the rig and not worry about, and be able to use in rivers or shoreline type touring, it works! Just throwing that out there, there are some old school solutions to this question that can work, and are really, really inexpensive if you can find them. :D

[compactcamping]

This time of year a lot of paddle shops will have a "demo days" where the manufacturer reps bring lots of boats out for test paddling. It's a great way the get some seat time in a number of different boats.

[T.Low]

Thats a great point Kristian.

An old Prijon T Canyon could make a good all rounder like that. The classic all rounder is the Prijon Yukon.

The Prijons are nice because they are blow molded plastic instead of rotationally molded, so they don't need a foam center pillar. That makes packing camping gear much easier.

If you are a backpacker, I could see overnighting out of a Dancer XT, although it would definitely be tight for me. (And I caught hell for camping out of an Anas Acuta!) That makes the XT a very versitile boat alright. You can camp out of it or slalom race it.

Its very similar to my old Pyranha Master that I use for kayak polo. The guys hate me because I'm so much faster in that boat than they are in their newer boats. (But I got to admit, I have 4 other boats for rivers, including a slalom boat).