Poll: how many of you know that driving in washes in AZ is illegal?

[DesertRose]

We all know that it's illegal (and stupid) to drive across unroaded habitat anywhere in AZ, but how many of you all know that in some parts of Arizona it is illegal to drive up washes? In Pima County it is clearly made illegal by ordinance. In other areas, it's a bit grayer because the law states you must travel only on existing roads - but who defines that?

This is becoming more of an issue because of ATV abuse especially during hunting season. We live out in the boonies, and ATVs are accessing all areas - including roadless areas - by going up washes. Too many times one of Jonathan's hunts has been totally knackered by an ATV driving right past a hide he had been at since before dawn, having backpacked there over many rugged miles.

Game and Fish and others are gearing up to crack down on this. Let's be proactive and help educate folks about responsible driving, so we don't lose any more access.

Here's a link for the regs on off-highway driving in AZ, but it's part of the problem: the site makes the info a bit too hard to mine, and thus, to understand.

Arizona Game & Fish OHV Regulations (http://www.azgfd.gov/outdoor_recreation/ohv_rules.shtml)

[flyingwil]

Great Post! However, I believe it is marketed to the wrong group. I have to admit, that being new to AZ I have driven by several washes, and thought that it would be fun to ride in them, especially with a bit of water/mud in them, but never have ventured down into one (not on a trail). I am sure that others out there are oblivious to the harm driving in the wash creates and the legalities behind it. I think the best way to combat this issue might be a letter into the newspaper or maybe even a few of the local news stations might get the word out better. If we all were to write in in regards to the same situation and issue I am sure they would do a story on it. However, I see the problem being lack of education, and many of the people that abuse the land are not aware they are violating any law or doing harm. "Hey the commercial says I can!" If we were to get the word out to local news, I believe it would trickle down to these riders.

Also the pages in your link do not work, I understand that it is not your fault, however, doing a Google search results in very few results in stating that driving in Dry washes is illegal. Hmmm.

[Ursidae69]

Many of the best trails are in washes. As long as you don't run over any veg, tortoises, or snakes, it probably isn't much harm. Although, the spilling of fluids in washes is a bad idea, some of the harder wash trails do have a lot of oils in them. This is not good at all.


My deer hunt last year in the Black Range was interrupted by some fat doods on quads. I woke up to blowing wind, snow 6in deep, and really cold. I still was hiking an hour before daylight back into an area that was closed to motor vehicles. It was one of the grazing allotments around Ted Turner's Ladder Ranch and the gates were locked. I was up on a ridgeline after daybreak waiting quietly under a tree when a fat guy on a quad comes up my ridgeline. I was more than pissed, not only was he in an area closed to motor vehicles, but he was off the established road just driving wherever he wanted. I should have plugged him at 150 yards with the bear claws I had loaded.

I hate to be this way, but the more I see, the more I think ATVs might need simply outlawed outright. Don't go flaming me saying "it's the driver not the ATV", it's just a discussion, but I am feeling that way more and more...

Here is a picture of me in the cold-assed hunt. I didn't get one, but my buddy did.

http://www.chucksweb.net/Trips/DeerHunt11-04/DSCF0217.jpg

[DesertRose]

Many of the best trails are in washes. As long as you don't run over any veg, tortoises, or snakes, it probably isn't much harm.

Hmm, Chuck - I think you might have forgotten about just plain incursion into refuge areas (not wildlife refuges, but places where larger animals like deer, antelope, bears, and big cats go away from roads and trails, to feed, rest, have their young - and generally get away from us!).

We used to drive in washes (I'm not talking about legal roads and tracks that follow washes sometimes, but just driving straight up a wash that has no other purpose but to see where you can go) but after we realized this just wasn't kosher (let alone legal) we stopped. Also, we're sensitive to it because now we live in a place where people drive up our wash all the time and go around our No Trespassing signs and then some bozo tries to tell us that "washes in Arizona are legal rights of way." :confused: I finally figured out that this is a persistent untruth spawned by someone who confused the "navigable waterway" precedent with dry washbeds. Only two rivers in AZ qualify for this 150 year old law: Colorado and Verde. Not my wash! Gack!

Anyway, I think it's important to let folks know that it's not just about running over plants. It's about leaving SOME place for animals to get away from people. In mule deer country this is just plain impossible with ATVs crawling all around every wash into every part of their habitat.


I hate to be this way, but the more I see, the more I think ATVs might need simply outlawed outright. Don't go flaming me saying "it's the driver not the ATV", it's just a discussion, but I am feeling that way more and more...

Here is a picture of me in the cold-assed hunt. I didn't get one, but my buddy did.

Right on, Chuck! Look, a hunter who's WALKING-- OMG!!! My favorite recent slogan from Backcountry Hunters and Anglers (we're founding members): USE THE QUADS GOD GAVE YOU.

As for banning: no, as much as I agree, it is all about education, or we're just like other extremists (more fun, but less effective). That's why this thread here. Spread the word. It's not just about driving over plants.


Roseann

[DesertRose]

Also the pages in your link do not work,

I just tried it from Firefox and it worked. Not sure what the problem is.

It's http://www.azgfd.gov/outdoor_recreation/ohv_rules.shtml

Who knows the mysterious ways of the web....not me!

[Jonathan Hanson]

I'm with you, Chuck! (I use Bear Claws in the Rigby, too.)

You know how ranchers used to leave coyotes hanging over barbed wire fences as a warning? We could just . . .oh, never mind.

I'm convinced scientists are going to discover an emission put out by ATV engines that instantly lowers the IQ of the rider by 50 points. I've watched perfectly intelligent-looking people (some of whom I know personally) do idiotic stunts after climbing on board. With most activities--4x4s, mountain bikes--I'm willing to believe it's a small minority that makes the rest look bad. With ATVs I'm just not so sure. We have a no trespassing sign in the wash leading up to our house. Probably 9 out of 10 truck tracks turn around at the sign. But I estimate no more than 2 out of 10 ATV tracks do. The rest just go right around it until they hit the fence.

[Scott Brady]

I am all on board with the ATV issue... They are constantly getting hurt, lost, off the trail, out of gas, etc. They camo their ATV and loose it while off walking around, and requiring a rescue, etc.

The new models are incredibly capable, and have lockers, winches, independent suspension etc. Regular roads are just not a challenge anymore. This is the same issue I have with the trailered rock buggys. No trail I drive on will even require 4wd for them, so the have to create a new place to play, and the rest of us (and the environment) suffers.

That is why I keep coming back to licensing and education. To drive a rock buggy or motor cycle of ATV outside of an OHV area or private property it should be street licensed. That licence should include specific training on staying on trails, etc.

[Scenic WonderRunner]

I agree that there are inconsiderate ATV'ers....and this should be a major concern. We also know there are MANY 4x4'ers with very bad manners.

But just as WE as 4x4 Explorer's do not want to be lumped in with the very bad form 4x4 dudes (sorry desertdude!....not you!...hehe) ....I don't know that we should just carelessly LUMP ALL ATV'ers into the same awful catagory. Maybe the "good" atv'ers could also help educate the bad ones?

Just as in life.....there are responsible folks.......and then there are folks who have breathed way too many fumes!

Disclaimer:........I have NEVER owned an ATV.........and NEVER plan to!

Here is a link to an ATV Explorer website I found. I'm not saying this is a wonderful group.....I don't know them.......I'm just sharing other opinion's in a constructive manner.

I found this ATV Explorers website listed at the BlueRibbonCoaltion (http://www.sharetrails.org/index.cfm?page=45)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


From their website:ATV Explorers LINK (http://www.atvexplorers.com/)
About Us
We are a group of adventurous individuals with ATVs who enjoy traversing vast distances and visiting remote locations. We are seeking others with similar interests, and have created this website to show what's out there for those with the burning desire to explore and challenge themselves.

Our group is somewhat xenophobic in nature; we do not like crowds, and we go out of our way to avoid them -- far away from population centers. We are generally not interested in being a part of ATV Clubs, but we will support their efforts whenever possible, as we must all stick together if we are to keep public land open for public use.

Our exploits are all completely legal; we do not ride in areas that are off-limits or closed to the motorized vehicles. We do, however, ride in some remote and technically challenging areas that are similar to, and in many cases much more challenging than, the famed Rubicon and Fordyce Trails... the key difference is that there is virtually no chance of anybody else happening by to help if something goes wrong.

[pangaea]

That is why I keep coming back to licensing and education. To drive a rock buggy or motor cycle of ATV outside of an OHV area or private property it should be street licensed. That licence should include specific training on staying on trails, etc.

I agree wholeheartedly. While I'm not saying all motorbike and ATV owners are irresponsible, there certainly seems to be a disproportionately high amount of them.

I don't know if its the mindset of that demographic or if its just plain ignorance, but I think required education would go a long way. I know that many states require safety courses for hunting licenses, I sure wouldn't be opposed if the same thing was required for these equally lethal (in the wrong hands) pieces of equipment.

[Scott Brady]

I know there are ATV users who are very responsible, but they are also likely older, more educated, etc. It is the young and the restless that do most of the damage. If you require the vehicles to be licensed and training to be conducted it will greatly limit the damage.

Unfortunately, the Border Patrol are also a big issue with wildcat riding and destructive pursuits...

The real challenge is the shear number of new OHV users and the lack of club participation. I have never been on a club sponsored run where drivers behaved poorly. Some clubs do an excellent job of education and positive pressure.

I have driven on the trail with a "virtual" club in AZ where that was not the case. Very few people know each other and so it became a big contest, with high speeds, spinning wheels and broken parts.

I wish all new OHV'ers would become involved in a club. For example, the Copper State Cruisers are one of the best, with active trail clean-up efforts, etc.

[BajaTaco]

Poll: how many of you know that driving in washes in AZ is illegal?

I have to say that when I saw the title of this post, I became a little concerned because it implys that ALL motorized travel in washes is illegal. After reading your actual posts though, you go on to describe that there are exceptions (established, legal trails that utilize washbeds as thoroughfares). It's a great topic though, because I for one have always had mixed emotions about it and I think it's good for people to discuss it. As a backpacker and hiker, photographer, and wildlife fan, I have a profound appreciation for Arizona's washes and wildlife corridors, and watering holes. If you ever look for animal tracks, you can see what a cool place (and busy!) washes can be for wildlife. As a 4wd explorer, I have also enjoyed the challenge that is usually present when established trails go through sections of wash/creekbed. It often consists of spectacular canyon walls and challenging obstacles (the trail we run on the way to DeSoto mine, and also Box Canyon trail near Florence come to mind right away). I will say that there are tons of numbered (legal) trails in Arizona that cross through or travel in, watercourse terrain, so I think that we can enjoy those without having to tear up and impede on those that are wild and pristine. The great thing about washes is that when a flood comes along, it will scour and clean the tracks that your vehicle may have left behind, and even change the terrain itself where some vegetation and rocks and sand/gravel are concerned. The problem is when we cross that "no trace" line and we start to impact the habitat permanently - in a negative way.

I love that saying you posted "Use the quads God gave you" :xxrotflma

[luangwablondes]

In my college days at ASU, I used to go camping periodically. Parked in a wash and took a hike with friends. Came back to what should have been the campsite, no vehicles. Not a cloud in the sky and a flash flood relocated them out of sight. Now(also pilot), I don't drive in washes without checking weather 1st.

Went to Ethiopia in the Omo/Mago Park region. Had many rivers and washes to cross at the end of the rainy season. Came to a flooding river-again not a cloud in the sky- in an extremely remote part. Thought this was the end of the line for our plans. I don't like to backtrack, especially down difficult tracks. While discussing our options the river dropped and out from the otherside a few locals walked down out of the shade of the trees and crossed. Apparently rains in the mountains quickly turn into floods.

By the way, I think this would have qualified for an expedition.

Drive down washes, not if there is any....any chance of rain nearby.

[Jonathan Hanson]

We run into family groups of the, uh, Bud Light and tires-on-the-mobile-home-roof persuasion, out blasting around the desert in big circles on incredibly powerful and loud ATVs, while their children follow in complete miniature form: mini-ATVs, mini-leathers, mini-helmets.

I refer to the latter as "redneck larva."

[DesertRose]

Luangwablondes - very educational anecdotes - sobering, too. When we were in Baja a few years ago, rains up above Rosario created a huge flash flood that ran all the way down to the Pacific through one of the usually dry vados. Unfortunately, some campers had picked the spot to set up camp where the wash hit the ocean. It came at night, and I can't recall if 4 or 6 people died, some bodies never recovered. They recovered one camper in something like 12 feet of mud in the ocean.

Have you read David Read's autobiographical books Barefoot Over the Serengeti and Beating About the Bush ? He grew up in Kenya and northern Tanzania in the early part of the last century and his stories are fantastic. Every day of their lives qualified as an expedition! There are several hair-raising tales of torrents of water rushing across dry plains with not a cloud in the sky....

Having grown up in the desert, we are well aware of the dangers. Another good reason not to drive up washes, besides not harassing wildlife.


For those who are interested, David Read is still alive, in his 80s, and has this interesting website:
http://www.serengetimasai.com/index.html

[freightdog]

Hell, we do it all the time -

How would all the Navajo get home?

You gonna come out and build bridges -

Runnin washes is one of our favorite past-times!

Sorry, I don't really give two ****s about the environment - never been very politically correct..

[Scott Brady]

Sorry, I don't really give two ****s about the environment - never been very politically correct..


Hey Jeff, at least your honest :shakin:

Actually, it is quite likely that wash running is not illegal in your area (think Canyon del Muerto). That is a county regulation. There are also many washes that are also clasified as roads (Box Canyon Road for example).

IMO, it is the raparian areas that demand our greatest respect, closed or not.

[Jonathan Hanson]

So . . . I am a fiscally conservative, hawkish-on-national-defense hunter and serial gun owner who believes welfare never raised the self-esteem of a single individual. But if I care about the environment, I'm "PC"?

That points out possibly the biggest problem facing the conservation community today: the concept that "environmentalists" are all either dreadlocked vegans or self-indulgent, meddling yuppies. Those on the far right who have a vested interest in exploiting public land for personal profit--or selfish recreational purposes--just love to push those stereotypes. My wife and I belong to an organization called Republicans for Environmental Protection. Why does such an organization have to exist? Because in our current, nasty, religionized political climate we're required to cleave completely to one party line or the other. It's environmentalism OR economic prosperity, militarism OR pacifism, free market OR protectionism. There is no nuance any more. No one has to think. I, for one, refuse to be a lemming.

I will never stop defending the last beautiful landscapes with which this country is blessed. I believe there is room and a place for everyone in the wild: hikers, 4x4 owners, motorhome retirees. I refuse to accept the idea that all wild lands left in the world are eventually doomed to be gobbled up by development. The world's population growth appears to be leveling off much sooner than anyone had hoped; with luck we'll stabilize our species at some sustainable number that will leave room for plenty of wilderness.

(Chuck, how was that for a rant?)

[BajaTaco]

(Chuck, how was that for a rant?)

I don't know about Chuck, but I thought it was EXCELLENT :ylsmoke:

[freightdog]

Just figured I could fire you all up! :bowdown:
:beer:

[Ursidae69]

So . . . I am a fiscally conservative, hawkish-on-national-defense hunter and serial gun owner who believes welfare never raised the self-esteem of a single individual. But if I care about the environment, I'm "PC"?

That points out possibly the biggest problem facing the conservation community today: the concept that "environmentalists" are all either dreadlocked vegans or self-indulgent, meddling yuppies. Those on the far right who have a vested interest in exploiting public land for personal profit--or selfish recreational purposes--just love to push those stereotypes. My wife and I belong to an organization called Republicans for Environmental Protection. Why does such an organization have to exist? Because in our current, nasty, religionized political climate we're required to cleave completely to one party line or the other. It's environmentalism OR economic prosperity, militarism OR pacifism, free market OR protectionism. There is no nuance any more. No one has to think. I, for one, refuse to be a lemming.

I will never stop defending the last beautiful landscapes with which this country is blessed. I believe there is room and a place for everyone in the wild: hikers, 4x4 owners, motorhome retirees. I refuse to accept the idea that all wild lands left in the world are eventually doomed to be gobbled up by development. The world's population growth appears to be leveling off much sooner than anyone had hoped; with luck we'll stabilize our species at some sustainable number that will leave room for plenty of wilderness.

(Chuck, how was that for a rant?)

Not bad, you need to froth at the mouth more though. :p

I'm all for compromises, but it's hard to reach compromises with the extreme on both sides pushing agendas. Where did you read that the world's growth is leveling off? I think we are still in the midst of the climb on the logistic growth curve myself. Maybe here in the US it has leveled off a little, but the rest of the world?

[Scott Brady]

First world countries have leveled off, or are in decline (for the most part). Since first world is the biggest consumers, that is a good start IMO.

In fact, it would be interesting to know how many on this forum have children, or greater than two. I have no kids, my sister only has one. The next generation (only my nephew) will have displaced four from my generation. 75% reduction in Brady's...

[Jonathan Hanson]

Declining fertility rates world wide caused the UN to revise its long-term world population estimates downward significantly. Their medium projection for 2050 is now 9.3 billion, way below estimates of even a decade ago. And there are signs the actual number might turn out lower than that.

Education of women in third-world countries is considered by many the single most important factor in reducing birth rates. The more educated a woman is, the fewer children she has.

The big problem, of course, is that most growth is still happening in countries that can least afford it. On the other hand, as Jared Diamond points out, a single birth in the first world weighs far heavier on the planet's resources than one in the third world.

Roseann and I have no children. On the other hand, one of my brothers seems to be doing his best to make up for that . . .

[DesertRose]

[QUOTE=Education of women in third-world countries is considered by many the single most important factor in reducing birth rates. The more educated a woman is, the fewer children she has..[/QUOTE]

Yes - "Just say 'NO, dude!'"

Interesting course this thread has taken.

All I wanted to do was get some discussion going about the consequences of driving in washes (not about world birth rates!). For me, I don't get all hot and bothered about driving over plants or even a squished vertebrate or two....in the long run, what really really really pisses me off are the people who will drive into an area that has no roads - whether it's up a wash or cross-country, same thing to me, because I do give two ****s for the environment, actually probably more like three. And while I think people belong in the environment and I support sustainable resource-based livelihoods like ranching and traditional fishing and small-scale farming, I don't think motor vehicles belong everywhere. Once again: use the quads God gave you!

Ack! I'm ranting! I'm ranting - :ar15: - there, that felt better. Never give a pissed off woman with elevated hormone levels an AR15.

[Ursidae69]

Is the wash (aka the Gila River) legal to drive up when it is flowing?

[Scott Brady]

I would say no, and just a bad idea in general. I ended up doing that once and regret it (for several reasons). We were driving to a ford point.

[BajaTaco]

... I was up on a ridgeline after daybreak waiting quietly under a tree when a fat guy on a quad comes up my ridgeline.


Although I think it sucks too, one thing to bear in mind is that the regulations for many public land areas allow an ATV to be driven across roadless, cross-country land when it is being used to pick up legally killed big game. I know this is the case for a lot of the forest land and state trust lands in Arizona. This can be really frustrating and I'm not so sure the logic of this policy is all that sound. In some cases I think it might be okay, but in a lot of cases I can see where it just allows way too much leverage for someone to be careless, ignorant, and abuse the priveledge.

[Ursidae69]

I would say no, and just a bad idea in general. I ended up doing that once and regret it (for several reasons). We were driving to a ford point.

I was just baiting you a little Scott because of your drive up the Rio. :p It is a cool video.


Although I think it sucks too, one thing to bear in mind is that the regulations for many public land areas allow an ATV to be driven across roadless, cross-country land when it is being used to pick up legally killed big game. I know this is the case for a lot of the forest land and state trust lands in Arizona. This can be really frustrating and I'm not so sure the logic of this policy is all that sound. In some cases I think it might be okay, but in a lot of cases I can see where it just allows way too much leverage for someone to be careless, ignorant, and abuse the priveledge.

I hadn't thought about that and you are right, in many places using an ATV or truck off-road for game retrieval is allowed. Not what this guy was doing in my case unless he was using a very loose interpretation of that rule. I think quartering it and getting it to the nearest road with your God-given quads would be the best option.

[awalter]

[QUOTE=Jonathan Hanson]
My wife and I belong to an organization called Republicans for Environmental Protection. Why does such an organization have to exist? Because in our current, nasty, religionized political climate we're required to cleave completely to one party line or the other. It's environmentalism OR economic prosperity, militarism OR pacifism, free market OR protectionism. There is no nuance any more. No one has to think. I, for one, refuse to be a lemming.

Why must one be affiliated with any of the political parties? I for one havn't been a registered Rep, Dem, Lib or what ever for over 25 years. Party affiliation is an escape & reduces your independence. I also have never missed casting my vote. :gunt:

[Jonathan Hanson]

Good point by Awalter. I stay registered mostly to vote in primaries. However, I also find that when lobbying (i.e. bullying, threatening, etc.) Republican congressmen and senators about environmental issues, it really helps if you're registered in the party.

Wow, this did get off track, didn't it? So to speak. But small issues reflect larger philosophical conundrums.

[DesertRose]

Agreed! This got way off track, but I have to say I think registering for a party is not giving up independence: it's ensuring that I don't let other people choose who I have to vote for (ie - primaries). I also think the best way to change things you don't like is not to avoid them but to join 'em and infiltrate - change from the inside. That's why I campaign for and volunteer for representatives I like. Did that for one of our best current reps and low and behold, at parties now he asks my opinion on environmental issues (and once, he asked about my thoughts on gun control from a woman's perspective). THAT'S a chance to make a difference and that's power to the people. :elkgrin:

[awalter]

Agreed! This got way off track, but I have to say I think registering for a party is not giving up independence: it's ensuring that I don't let other people choose who I have to vote for (ie - primaries). I also think the best way to change things you don't like is not to avoid them but to join 'em and infiltrate - change from the inside. That's why I campaign for and volunteer for representatives I like. Did that for one of our best current reps and low and behold, at parties now he asks my opinion on environmental issues (and once, he asked about my thoughts on gun control from a woman's perspective). THAT'S a chance to make a difference and that's power to the people. :elkgrin:

Point well made.

[MaddBaggins]

I always stay on the road unless I am walking(hiking), then I challenge myself with a little exploration and finding my way back. I have a real good internal compass. That comes in handy when I hunt.

Jonathan, after reading your posts in this thread I like you even more! It's comforting to know other people have similar views.

[calamaridog]

How do you tell the difference between illegal off hwy trails made by drug runners, coyotes, and the Border Patrol vs. the ATV mafia and the Rock Buggy zealots?

1,000,000 people are about to cross into AZ in 2006 through your southern border. Many off them will be in cars, trucks, and vans. Many more will be on foot.

My buddy arrested 2 guys on ATV's carrying several hundred pounds of drugs across the border near Nacho. They weren't driving on trails either. The BP drives wherever they want.

The point I'm trying to make, as I'm sure you already know after picking up their trash, is that there is a more serious issue at work here. The border states are screwed. There is no end in site. We cannot pick up millions of tons of trash each year.

What will be done :(

[DesertRose]

Yes, the points are certainly clear - there is a huge problem.

Which is why as recreational 4x4 owners and drivers, we can and should use our maps, which show legal roads - on FS and some BLM lands, they are marked with signs - and we should know the laws, such as the one in Pima County (there are others throughout the state) that indicates that driving up (not across) washes if it's not a road, is not legal.

There are good reasons for this: out in our neck of the woods, where a good portion of those 1 million people are walking across the desert north and where we get a lot of coyote and drug smuggler traffic, when we see a truck or ATV driving up a wash or cross country, we assume they are up to no good and we call Border Patrol and/or the Sheriff if they are trespassing on our property (which ATVs OFTEN do).

Also - this thread was started to alert people to land-use laws and to bring up some points about the ethics of driving (or thinking we have the right to drive) EVERYWHERE: it disturbs wild areas, and wild animals, and those of us who hunt are sick of ATVs and 4x4s driving everywhere, including places that are ostensibly roadless - and used to be great hunting until ATVs came onto the scene.

Since we live in Ground Zero Borderlandia and see migrants and smugglers nearly every day, it's fairly easy to tell the ATV bozos and pseudo-hunters from the real hunters from the smugglers. Real hunters walk. Pseudo-hunters on ATVs who drive around to "scout" (how silly!) can be spotted a mile away (hint: the deer spot them, too). And the other guys - smugglers - stand out so easy, just by their behavior (they don't wave and they drive really fast and they are usually Hispanic - but hey, i'm not racial profiling here!). We've tried to point this out to the Border Patrol kids who are out here, but they don't seem to get it....

Roseann

[calamaridog]

Roseann,

I know it is easy for you to tell the difference :ylsmoke: but it may be hard for others to tell the difference who just see ruts and piles of trash.

It certainly behoves us all to educate the younger generations about staying on the legal trails and such. I can say that I have personally signed up a total of 10 "buddies" through the Blue Ribbon Coalition this year.

It is more important than ever that we dedicate more OHV areas and dedicated trail systems. There are not enough trails for the HUGE number of ATV's in peoples garages.

Most importantly, there is no enforcement. They can add 1,000 Border Patrol agent each year but they never add Park Rangers and BLM Officers.

[fj803fe]

Wow, this did get off track, didn't it? So to speak. But small issues reflect larger philosophical conundrums.


So true, so true.

I have faught with my own emotions several times regarding, off-road use, wildlife habitat, preservation, conservation, sustainable management, and on, and on, and on.

As a wildlife biologist by education, environmental consultant by proffession, avid off-road enthusiast (albeit limited to my cruisers :D), hunter, backpacker, etc, etc, etc. I have not found the answer.

Chew on this;

Interesting fact (at least in Colorado); approximately 93% of recreators in the State of Colorado do not go further than 300 ft. from their vehicle when in public parks and public lands. Do you? Think about it. I do hunting, hiking, working, etc. But when I am out with the fam, this is pretty much the case for me too.

Most of the high use recreation sites are fairly well damaged, but I know the FS has implemented new policies in the last 10 yrs to greatly reduce such impacts to "levels within acceptable change" by "upgrading" these recreating sites with public restrooms, gravelled parking areas, walkways to provide access to river systems to prevent riparian trespass-they have worked IMO, in a lot of situations. The BLM is trailing, but they always have, and the BLM was implemented not necessarily to manage but to provide "general public use lands" with very little if no restrictions. Comanagement of Forests and BLM lands has helped implement some good managements to the BLM lands as a result (e.g. calving period restrictions, other seasonal restrictions, implementation of signage for trail use, etc.)

Alternatively, I have seen some SERIOUSLY (what I would call seriously) damaged camping sites along the Colorado Trail at 13,000 ft with the nearest road 15 miles away! But management isn't as "active" in these areas, for obvious reasons.

Push to have roadless policies are still underway-while a nationwide push has somewhat faded, the local governments are picking up the ball, there is a meeting tomorrow night about making public lands in my county, and State for that matter, roadless. My opinion is both options are viable-but should be implemented in well defined 30 year management direction and 10 year management implementation plans-and not the piss-ant mangement plans that double as an EIS. Those, IMO, are worthless for making and maintaining managment decisions-A management plan and an EIS are two TOTALLY different animals alltogether-an niether can speak for the others needs.

Such interesting tid-bits can make one think, and piece together the actual "need" for environmental protection/management.

A lot of the initiatives are begun because of buzz-words marketed by interest groups (i.e. old-growth ( Do you know the "actual" definition of and how many forest types actually function as "old-growth?)).

As far as ATVs are concerned, yes I grow continually agrivated by them. But a backpacker alone grows ever more agrivated by my "tread lightly" off road use as well. Recreational conflict will never cease no matter the groups at hand.

And I agree about the "navigable waters" comment. Though an ephemeral wash is afforded somewhat less protections/restrictions for fills, many of them, even if apparently isolated, are given jurasdiction.

To the question about driving in washes, is it okay? Well, from an environmental stewardship stanpoint, no. By the letter of federal law (i.e. CWA), yes it is. Though local regs may restrict such activities.

But driving up a wash DOES do more damage than squashing veg, vertebrates, etc. Though the type of impact is dependant on the substrate at hand. tire depressions can alter flow velocities, scour, thalwags, and so on-its not only what you "see" that matters as an impact-its what you don't even know is occuring.

[DesertRose]

Welcome, fj803fe!

Great post, really well-informed and right-on.

I think you'll find that Expedition Portal is populated largely by people like us, with a deep and abiding love of wild places and things (there are many hunters and serious backcountry outdoorspeople, too). There is a real community here of people who feel the conundrum of loving 4x4, vehicle-dependent expeditions and travel, while also understanding and loving and wanting to protect wild nature. Many of us work in the same field you do, or in a related field (I have been a professional conservationist for years, having run several non-profits; that's what I do right now, but this time an African organization).

I started this thread to get a conversation going about just the types of issues you raise in your post, above. Really it boils down to a choice we all make about how we run our trails, where we go, and how we understand what we do makes or does not make an impact on wild things and places.

When I--and a lot of other people here -- talk about conservation in this forum, we're not talking about conserving roads, we're talking about land conservation, and wildlife - that's why this particular discussion about washes came up, as down here in southern AZ we are seeing a huge decline in mule deer numbers and even Game and Fish is thinking it's ORV (quad) incursions into unroaded areas.

You can see the editorial Jonathan (my husband) wrote on the Expedition Portal Conservation page (http://www.expeditionportal.com/conservation.php) about the Roadless Rule and some interesting thoughts on why there are PLENTY of backroads in America (enough to circle the globe 15 times on Forest Service lands alone; folks who say there aren't enough roads maybe don't live within easy access, but we can't go building roads for every one who wants to drive within an hour of home, can we?). We don't feel a problem with the dichotomy that we're 4x4 enthusiasts AND we support the Roadless Rule; that we're serious environmentalists AND we're loyal Republicans; that we're hunters and gun owners AND we support many liberal causes.

That roadless meeting you attended in Colorado was partly organized by the Backcountry Hunters and Anglers, of which Jonathan and I became founding members last year. You might look them up on the web.

So - welcome, and thanks for the great input!

[flywgn]

Whew! My grandfather would say, "Reading that plumb tuckered me out!"

I'm rather new to this Forum, so I'm doing a little homework and picking out some threads that interest me as this one did.

Thanks for starting it. Good discussion.

[GeoRoss]

An interesting thread. I have come to believe that the issues with driving in washes really comes down to numbers. A vehicle every day or two will really have very little impact to wildlife (assuming no loss of fluids and crushing of plants). Most traces of impact will be washed away with the next flow. In fact, I think hiking and driving in washes leaves less impact due to this. I am not talking about those with running water though, dry washes only.

The problem comes from too many numbers. This weekend I had to hike about 8 miles round trip to get to an area I was working in. The result due to the short days was I didn't have time to get the work done I needed to. I was very tempted to drive up a wash for access. Fortunately I did find another way to access this area on an established road. These sort of things color my view as I look at access/wash driving as part of my job and not just recreation. It is not only that I want to get somewhere, but that I have to get somewhere. If I can do it with a vehicle as a opposed to backpacking in a basecamp that saves me both time and money. Especially as my pack gets heavier throughout the day as I collect samples, 2-4 10llb rock samples gets heavy at the end of the day.

I have no answers, because I know that too many people anywhere tends to trash a place.


Ross

[Bioguy]

I've driving washes for years, (AZ) but rather then everyone blaming the idiots that trash stuff, check out the holier than thou ranchers. We were recently cited by F&G for riding a wash "cross country travel" Sec 17-454. This was not a virgin wash, other vehicals have been up it. Ranchers, I assume by the tire marks.

A rancher saw us and reported our presence...he rode around with the F&G guy all day looking for us ...his private police force. In the wash we saw where the rancher had Bulldozed water holes and built a coral. Cow crap was everywhere. Yet he had the gull to tell us our tires left imprints in the sand and was evironmentally insensative...with a smirk on his face. This was all on state land! We do not cross private land and obey "no tresspassing",& "Private property" signs.

We do not cross country (different then washes), mow down cactus or wreck the land. Washes are self cleaning by mother nature any rain over a quarter of an inch will rearrange every rock in a wash, not to mention uprooting trees and vegatation. Cattle trample saguaro seedlings and others.

We have spent many weeks Helping F&G build reventments for deer and game watering holes. We pick up trash the idiots leave and 98 % of the time spend our time on roads and trails. Our hobby is old mine archeolegy.

So instead of blaming the imature ATV people ( we also explore by Jeep) Start looking at the damage the hobby/rancher does. Check around and old ranchers house...junk cars, open land fills, ces pools whaaa!. They buy a few acres bordering state land, put a double wide on it and run cattle on state land...our land! Lets stop blaming each other before all back roads are shut down. We can be the checks and balance to make sure all state land users are good stewards of the enviornment. ATV damage is a red herring at best. A