PDA

View Full Version : Diesels for Toyotas



Redline
11-14-2006, 05:18 AM
I'm new around these forums, but a friend sent me this Toyota info, and the diesel JK Wrangler thread in the Jeep section made me this this may be of interest to you Toyota guys :-) Not sure of the source but reads like a regular news piece.

James


Toyota Buys a Way into Diesels


Automotive News


TOKYO -- In late July, Katsuaki Watanabe picked up the phone. For the second time in nine months, the Toyota Motor Corp. president was ready to open his wallet and buy his way out of a problem.


In October 2005 he had purchased an 8.7 percent stake in Subaru-maker Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd. from General Motors for about $315 million. Toyota plans to use the Subaru plant in Indiana to build Camry cars.


This time he called Yoshinori Ida, the president of Isuzu Motors Ltd. His proposal: Combine forces on diesel engines and alternative drivetrains.


"I was really surprised" and "puzzled" by the call, Ida says. Toyota rarely pursues other automakers' technology. But the more Ida thought about it, the more it made sense. Toyota desperately needed what Isuzu had: diesel expertise and diesel-manufacturing capacity.


Watanabe's call to Ida has paid off. Toyota has purchased 5.6 percent of Isuzu. For approximately $375 million, Toyota now has access to Isuzu's army of more than 800 experienced diesel engineers. These same engineers developed GM's successful Duramax diesel engine for light trucks in the United States.


Wanted: Diesel Expertise


The timing of the call was the result of Isuzu's availability and Watanabe's growing awareness of Toyota's shortfall in diesel expertise.


In April, GM had sold its final 7.9 percent of Isuzu to raise about $300 million, after having held partial ownership of Isuzu since 1971.


"We think we need to strengthen our diesel capabilities," Watanabe says. "We anticipate the growth of diesel engines going forward."


Several events led him to that conclusion.


Despite Toyota's efforts to promote hybrids, Europe remained unconvinced. European buyers prefer diesels, which offer improved fuel economy at lower cost than hybrids.


Diesel's share there has been climbing for years. In the first eight months of 2006, diesel engines powered more than half of all passenger vehicles sold in Europe.


Toyota's diesel offerings are adequate in Europe. But the automaker is not in the forefront of clean diesel technology.


At this spring's Geneva auto show, several European carmakers started talking seriously about diesel hybrids.


A few weeks later, Toyota launched its hybrid-powered Lexus GS 450h in Japan. Masatami Takimoto, executive vice president for powertrain r&d, was primed to brag about the hybrid powertrain's extra performance.


Instead, Japanese reporters began grilling him about Toyota's plans for a diesel hybrid. Takimoto responded like a deer in headlights. Hybrids use one or more electric motors and an internal combustion engine to power the wheels.


Flanked by Honda


In May, rival Honda Motor Co. flanked Toyota on diesels. Honda promised to sell a diesel-engine car clean enough to meet gasoline-engine emissions levels in North America and Japan within three years. Watanabe was left mumbling that Toyota is working on clean diesel engines, too, but isn't ready to say when the engines will come to market.


Toyota and Isuzu negotiated for three months. To cement their relationship, Toyota was willing to buy a stake in Isuzu. Toyota didn't have a specific number of shares in mind, says Watanabe, when it began talking to Isuzu's largest shareholders.


By Nov. 3, the two companies were ready to unveil the broad outline of their deal.


The two companies plan to combine their diesel and alternative drivetrain efforts.


"Isuzu's diesel engines will now be mounted on Toyota cars," Ida says. He won't say which cars, or which markets, will get the engines. That will be decided later, he says.


The two companies will study the following areas for possible collaboration:

R&d, and then production, of small diesel engines, led by Isuzu.
Joint r&d of emissions control technologies and devices for diesels, led by Isuzu.
Environmental technology, including that related to engines and alternative fuels, led by Toyota.


Diesel Hybrid?


While the deal addresses Toyota's diesel shortcomings in the near term, it also positions Toyota to reclaim the green mantle from clean-diesel leaders. Says Watanabe, "In the future we may come up with a diesel hybrid as well."


Toyota will buy 100 million shares of Isuzu stock for about $375.0 million from trading houses Mitsubishi Corp. and Itochu Corp. The stock purchase was to have been completed Friday, Nov. 10.


Toyota certainly can afford it. In the six months ended Sept. 30, its operating profits rose 35.1 percent to $9.27 billion. Indeed, according to Takeshi Suzuki, Toyota's senior managing director for finance, one of the company's challenges is finding ways to return more profits to shareholders.


After the purchase, Isuzu's largest shareholders will be Mitsubishi Corp. with 9.7 percent of the stock, Itochu with 7.2 percent and Toyota with 5.9 percent.

Scenic WonderRunner
11-14-2006, 06:40 PM
........Still Praying for Toyota Diesel.........!

but I was kinda praying that my Toyota Diesel would be Toyota Diesel!

........Dangit!


.

pskhaat
11-14-2006, 06:50 PM
So odd. Toyota's had diesel offerings everywhere for such a long time...it's stil puzzling to me why they'd seek out such different ERP processes for these materials instead of focusing that capital on cleaning it's own diesel offerings which honestly shouldn't be that hard to do, especially for Toyota.

That news smells like an absolute stategic overplay to me reading between the lines. Time will prove.

Grim Reaper
11-14-2006, 11:04 PM
Its really not out of character for Toyota. It really is part of its history in fact since WWII. Ever wonder why Japanese trucks have the same 6 lug pattern as GM trucks? Because GM helped them get back on their feet. The FJ40's I6 is based on the GM I6.
The FI on most Toyota's is Designed by Bosch.....It virtually identical to what is on some VW,s BMW's and Porsches. Why reinvent the wheel...they found what they thought was the best manufacture for the component they needed and worked out a deal. Saved MILLION$ in development.

DaveInDenver
11-14-2006, 11:12 PM
Toyota's had diesel offerings everywhere for such a long time...it's stil puzzling to me why they'd seek out such different ERP processes for these materials instead of focusing that capital on cleaning it's own diesel offerings which honestly shouldn't be that hard to do, especially for Toyota.

I don't think it's a question of making good diesel engines, Toyota makes some fine engines. It's a question of getting diesel engines quickly that are both powerful and clean enough for places like North America. Isuzu has been selling EPA-kosher diesels here for a long time, so maybe they'll be able to get something like a 1KZ-TE to market in a hurry?

pskhaat
11-14-2006, 11:33 PM
GrimReaper, my understanding of Toyota is very (cough) Microsoftish in their practices, in that it is very hard to get external investment from them without them controlling the entity. I'm not saying this particularly in a bad way as I would about MS, just that I actually would think it would be possibly out of character for them.

DaveInDenver, my personal issue with bringing in Isuzu into the fold is that they are now too heavily influenced by past investors and have become mass-marketized thinkers (in my humble opinion), especially the light divisions. They will be producing diesels in configurations that are for cars not off-road trucks simply due to the nature of the arising demand for them in cars. Toyota's already going down the ``let's make one frame and one engine and slap different body panels on it'' path. I don't agree with that. It may be good from a business perspective, but not the type of thing this consumer (I) will be rushing to buy.

I bet we end up with diesel V6 (argh a flippin' V-configuration) that is overbored, a short intake, and has a nice flat torque curve for easy highway driving. I want just the opposite. You know I guess I should just shut-up and be happy that diesel will eventually come here...

Clutch
11-15-2006, 12:28 AM
This was in the Offroad.com website on their coverage on the 2006 Sema show...

"Hidden in the back I found this small booth by Diesel Toyz Inc. Diesel Toyz specializes in converting american Toyota vehicles to diesel power just as they come in Europe. For less than a performance build you could swap in a genuine Toyota diesel and greatly increase your mileage and get increased torque at the same time. How does 35MPG sound? "

http://orc.off-road.com/offroad/data/articlestandard/offroad/432006/382068/sema01_067.jpg

Scott Brady
11-15-2006, 03:58 AM
Diesel Toyz. http://www.dieseltoyz.com/

Too bad I missed that booth.

Clutch
11-15-2006, 04:56 AM
Yea-Ow!...$4500-$6000 in LABOR fees!

I sure hope that includes the engine.

How many miles would one have to drive, before that thing started saving you money at the pump?

Brian894x4
11-15-2006, 08:17 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any of the current diesel offerings by Toyota are actually Toyota engines anyway. I know Hino has been a major supplier of Toyota diesel engines for years, although technically Hino is owned by Toyota. But also some Toyota diesels are made by Daihatsu, which I guess is also owned by Toyota.

Some foreign toyota models produced countries like South Africa and Brazil used entirely different diesel engines than their counterparts made in Japan, due to sourcing laws. Such as engines by Mercedes.

Grim Reaper
11-15-2006, 01:05 PM
Diesel Toyz. http://www.dieseltoyz.com/

Too bad I missed that booth.
I wonder how their prices are. I have http://www.jarcoinc.com/inventory/halfcuts/ 30 minutes up the road from me. I seriously thought about it before I rebuilt this engine. I just had some real worries about spare parts avaialblility. Its $5k for the 1Kz with really low miles. almost $3k for the 2L-TE. Hopefully some markeplace choices will drive those prices back down to where it is reasonable again.

I can buy a Lot of Gas with that extra $3k it cost for the 1KZ over rebuilding my 22RE. So the conversion sure isn't for saving money unless you drive about 40k a year to make up the difference in fuel savings.

Clutch
11-15-2006, 03:16 PM
If the engine is $3-5000 plus Laber fees up to $6000. I really don't think it is worth it.

My Tacoma is paid for. I could pay for nearly 5 years of plain ol' gasoline for the price of the engine swap. That doesn't inlude the diesel fuel costs either.

Or it could nearly pay for this KTM Adventure I have been eyeing. ;)

pskhaat
11-15-2006, 05:00 PM
You're right as for the manufacturer of said engines, but all manufacturers are mesh of different suppliers. I do however believe (can't seem to find this info online anywhere easy?) that Toyota owns a larger share in many of their major suppliers?

98sr5
01-24-2008, 07:53 PM
for 13000 plus the cost of the truck youd be better off getting a cummins with like 40000 miles cost about the samebut the cummins got double the power and a solid axle

98sr5
01-24-2008, 07:53 PM
oops didnt even see this is a year old