Which Winch Mount Bumper?

[flyingwil]

Well the time has come to research more on a winch mount bumper for the Taco. The choices seem to be endless. From bolt on premanufactured to completely custom.

Well here is what I know I want...

Winch mount for Warn 8k
Recovery points (1 each side)
Light Mounting points


Here is the debate:

Stinger/Light guards (hoops like the ARB)
Tube/Solid


I think that the ARB style is what I am after, looks wise, but think that it might just stick out too far forward. It does appear to have a large area on the front and looks like it increases the front by a few inches?

On the other hand we have custom, and I could do a plate style such as Bent-Up's or similar and add the bull bar portion of the bumper that I like for protection from animal strikes.

Then in our additional hand we have the tube bumper, with styles that seem endless and easy to get locally. I think the weight might be just a bit less on the tubular bumpers, but not by much, so that leads me back to the plated bumper in which I prefer the styling.

Here are some choices I am playing with...

ARB:
http://www.expeditionswest.com/equipment/tacoma/bumper/ARB_bumper/ARB_bumper_1_SML.JPG

DeMello:
http://www.demello-offroad.com//catalog/images/Picture%20050.jpg

AllPro:
http://www.allprooffroad.com/images/stories/Taco%20Supreme%20014_sm.jpg

Bent-Up:
http://www.bentup.com/FrontBumpers/Tacoma/tacoma3501.jpg

CBI:
http://cbioffroadfab.com/v-web/gallery/albums/album03/jasons_front_bumper_installed.jpg


What is your thoughts and opinions?

[erin]

Hey Wil, as you know, I favor the tube styles to minimize approach angle, but I also really like the encased look of the ARB or TJM. If I hadn't gone AllPro, I definetly was going to go with the TJM and add the brush guards from Sonoran Design in Pheonix. They had good prices, and the cost for the add'l brush guards was very reasonable, plus I really liked the way they designed it. Kind of a mean rake to the side hoops.
You will definitely have less work with the finished styles and associated costs rather then all thats required of the custon tube or plate that comes unfinished.

[Grim Reaper]

I'll screw you up more. Trail Gear has a couple new ones in developement as well. http://www.trail-gear.com/ And Geiger was the guy that was at Alpro and Marlin that helped expand both compaines offerings.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=518894&page=8 last post on that page has the prototype for the 84-95 trucks. You will be able to buy parts, like that laser cut winch deck, if you want a foundation to build your own.

I am going custom I think and I will start with that winch deck. I am still up in the air about a Exo cage or just rub rails. Trails around here there is a lot of V ruts to slog through.

What will be different about what I do over trail gear is a little less of a pronouced stinger...more like the All Pro. A set of Clevis points right below the winch deck. An aluminum skid plate from below the fairley and the frame to clean it up.

[cruiseroutfit]

The I can fully appreciate the styling of the lighter "rockcrawling" bars... they simply don't offer the protection I want for the front end of a Tacoma use for long range trips, desert & mtn. exploration, etc.

In every one of those pictures I could take a stick and shove it through the evaporator & radiator... They are great looking bumpers, but they all lack (as any tube design potentially does) the ability to actually protect the vital components behind the bumper IMHO.

As for the "stingers" :ar15: Those things need to go back into the vault IMHO. They started in the Rockrawling world, but disappeared there after folks came to their sense. But they still show up on Jeeps, Trucks, etc. Usually on a truck without any sort of rear bumper or even slider protection ;)

[kcowyo]

Strike many animals, do ya'?

I'm with Kurt. Big stingers, like CBI and others make, scream "see me", and a few other things the potty mouth filter on this site won't let me say. In an attempt to say something positive, I suppose they'd make a great front end point to lash down a canoe to.

After seeing the results to a TJM equipped 4Runner following a 30mph accident, when it rear ended another vehicle, I'll pass on the TJM. They look great, but it certainly didn't seem to hold up well to impact or offer much protection to the front end. Mounting and airbag issues have been well documented by T100 and TJM owners. The same may or may not be true for Tacomas.

I wouldn't count on a whole lot of impact protection from any front end replacement options. The best you can hope for is a low weight and strong base for a winch mount and recovery points. From what I've seen, Bent Up has the most logical offering.

[articulate]

Strike many animals, do ya'?
When you get your bumper, we'll go play some "reindeer games." Then you'll see what all the fun is with striking animals.
:costumed-smiley-007

[devinsixtyseven]

x2 on the bentup. the arb sticks out too far forward, ruining an already poor weight bias, and prevents you from climbing obstacles. even with 35s on my truck and a ride height a couple inches higher, it's still too far forward. i have a better departure angle...

i dig the skid plates on the demello and allpro. if the bentup comes with something similar, i'd definately get it...it looks like it protects the engine better from debris while maintaining a good approach angle.

-sean

[toyrunner95]

personally i would go with custom. i hard mounted my winch to a mount that i made. i bought a warn trailer plate and simply welded it to the frame which i boxed and gusseted it. this made a nice low mount where i wasnt torquing on the bumper or the frame all together. the bumper i cut the back out of so it fits around the winch which is still accessable easily. the bumper is easy to remove so i can get at the winch if it needs to come off. as for mount points, i am making bolt on loops to bolt where the origian tow hooks went. again pulling on the frame of the vehicle and not just the bumper.

im going to redo the bumper mounts, they are for now connected to the body mounts and i dont like that, i will eventually re mount them some place more secure. this style of bumper is great, its low profile and only stickes out about 2 thirds of the ARB does. plus i dont have to reach under the damn thing in the mud to turn the clutch knob. my bumper was made by a guy named mike chick. if u want one i can try and get you one. its 1/4" steel and its is probably the cleanest thing i have ever seen, you cant even see a weld. i believe that its made out of one piece.

[seth_js]

I'm not a fan of armor style bumpers. I think they are big, heavy, ugly, and generally have crappy approach angles. I agree with what cruiseroutfit said about the lack of protection with tube bumpers, but I can't think of a time when I was ever in danger of a branch going into my radiator. I vote CBI minus the stinger.

[flyingwil]

Strike many animals, do ya'?

Actually yes... I have hit 2 deer, 2 javelina's, tons of rabbits, and tons of birds...


Big stingers, like CBI and others make, scream "see me", and a few other things the potty mouth filter on this site won't let me say.

I agree, I do not like the stingers either and prefer the styling of the ARB like the DeMello one is perfect in my mind.

x2 on the bentup. the arb sticks out too far forward, ruining an already poor weight bias, and prevents you from climbing obstacles. even with 35s on my truck and a ride height a couple inches higher, it's still too far forward. i have a better departure angle...


i dig the skid plates on the demello and allpro. ...it looks like it protects the engine better from debris while maintaining a good approach angle.

:iagree: Thus another reason a local fab shop might be able to exactly what I want. Just need to explore the pro and cons of every option first.

[TACODOC]

Bumpers are for protection.
I prefer the ARB for a variety of reasons, the most important being airbag compatibility. ARB is the ONLY manufacturer to certify this important capability. Weight you say? None of these bumpers are light vs. the stock tupperware. And, as for the ARB having "bad approach angle", I've NEVER been limited by my ARB. My Tacoma will never need to climb straight up a wall like a tube frame rock buggy, the bumper is there to protect us and to mount a winch and lights, thats it.

The only other option I would consider would be the Bentup or Shrockworks.

[toyrunner95]

ive never had a problem with approach angle on my setup, my bumper tho is much heavier than an arb. arb's usally run 3/16" sheet, mine runs 1/4. and i have hit an elk and a buffalo with mine. i plan on adding headlight guards to mine so it will have protection.

now why do u want a solid mount winch? i actually have 2 winches, one hard mounded to the front, and another thats on a multi mount so if i lay my rig on its side i have recievers on the sides and the back. its a great set up. plus if im on an off camber and i dont like it, i just strap up the winch and moniter the remote to make sure i dont go over.

[SinCity4r]

x3 for Bentup

[TACODOC]

Wil, there may be another option. Have you seen Shrockworks bumpers? They make nice stuff.

http://www.tacomaterritory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46498&page=1&pp=30&highlight=shrockworks

[flyingwil]

Wil, there may be another option. Have you seen Shrockworks bumpers? They make nice stuff.

http://www.tacomaterritory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46498&page=1&pp=30&highlight=shrockworks


I agree they have some kick *** products, BUT... I have an '01:exclaim:

[Willman]

Another vote for ARB!!!

Great alround bumpers!!!

With any bumper that you choose Wil, make sure that you do the end cap mod! (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2747) (post #3)

Were still on for the rear bumper right?

;)

[flyingwil]

Were still on for the rear bumper right?

;)


Hell Yeah, sounds like fun to me! :friday:

[Kermit]

You can try these guys too. I have seen their bumpers on Toyotas. Even though they are not listed. I was going to have them build one for me. Never got around to it.

Nice plate bumper but, very low profile.

http://www.hansonenterprise.com/

http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2235221450093498191Ovocji

[Grim Reaper]

After seeing the results to a TJM equipped 4Runner following a 30mph accident, when it rear ended another vehicle, I'll pass on the TJM. They look great, but it certainly didn't seem to hold up well to impact or offer much protection to the front end. Mounting and airbag issues have been well documented by T100 and TJM owners. The same may or may not be true for Tacomas.




Something has to give...its either the bumber or the frame. I sure would rather bolt on a new bumper then had to total the truck for frame damage. So that bumper crushing may not really be a bad thing.


TJM is designed to work with factory safety equipment like the Airbags. I think TJM and ARB are the only two manufatures that did any sort of crash testing to make sure their bumprs didn't interfere with Crush zones and Air bag deployment.

[Bergger]

Something has to give...its either the bumber or the frame. I sure would rather bolt on a new bumper then had to total the truck for frame damage. So that bumper crushing may not really be a bad thing.

I agree.

[Kermit]

I agree.

That brings up an idea, has anyone ever built a dampener for the bumper so the truck frame and the bumper can take a slow speed impact, so there is no damage? Still mounting the winch directly to the frame?

Or is that just silly?

[cruiseroutfit]

I'm not a fan of armor style bumpers. I think they are big, heavy, ugly, and generally have crappy approach angles. I agree with what cruiseroutfit said about the lack of protection with tube bumpers, but I can't think of a time when I was ever in danger of a branch going into my radiator. I vote CBI minus the stinger.

Arizona might be a bit different than Utah's trails?

Moab's river district in the spring (Tamerisk) or breaking snow in Uintahs is going to inevitably have you breaking through downed trees, etc.

Not likely? Well many of the things we incorporate into our vehicles are to protect against very unlikely events. I bet many snorkel owners are more likely to take some front end damage on the trail than they are to actually submerge their vehicle. But, having been on the repair side of things for the past 8 year I think about it a little differently... "Could I fix a radiator on the trail", not too easily.

Sure the ARB bumper sacrafices a small amount of approach angle (not too much when compared to other winch integrated designs). However I have done plenty of "rockcrawling" in my Tacoma, 4 rated trails in Moab with nothing more than a scrape or two to my bumper. Tacoma's are not a rockcrawlers, so many people compain about the approach angle... ever looked at the departure angle? Equally as important to me.

You need to build a vehicle for its intended purposes. Are you building an expedition rig, or a rockcrawler? It is virtually impossible to build one that performs ideally at both. All this talk of approach angle, etc is purely academic unless the user actually wants to go "rock crawling" with his/her rig...

[cruiseroutfit]

That brings up an idea, has anyone ever built a dampener for the bumper so the truck frame and the bumper can take a slow speed impact, so there is no damage? Still mounting the winch directly to the frame?

Or is that just silly?

ARB's bumpers incorporate "crush cans" into their designs. I've pulled a couple of wrecked ARB bumpers off of vehicles and had zero frame damage to deal with.

[Westy]

This is one of the nicer bumpers I have seen for the 96+ Tacomas/4runners -
http://www.armorology.com/000_0346.JPG

http://www.armorology.com/000_0336.JPG


http://www.armorology.com

[Lost Canadian]

ARB's bumpers incorporate "crush cans" into their designs. I've pulled a couple of wrecked ARB bumpers off of vehicles and had zero frame damage to deal with.
Some do but not all. The 05+ Tacoma's do not have crush cans, nor do the current 4runner or FJC bumpers. The only thing slowing impact would be the rubber bumpers.

[DaveInDenver]

Something has to give...its either the bumber or the frame. I sure would rather bolt on a new bumper then had to total the truck for frame damage. So that bumper crushing may not really be a bad thing.

If what you are hitting is significant all that energy needs to be dissipated somewhere. A 20 lb bumper held on with 4 bolts doesn't take much force to collapse, so in a serious collision what happens is the bumper folds and leaves the body (and my assumption, the occupants) of the truck exposed. In a wreck I'd rather have a substantial bumper with tons of fasteners that dissipates energy right into the frame, which I'm assuming is the most efficient way to spread it throughout the truck. What that means in a lab, I dunno. But, from what I've seen of ARB-vs-animals reinforces my beliefs. When I say 'protection' in this case I mean protection of the driver, passenger and K9. If that means my frame is destroyed, that's fine with me.

[cruiseroutfit]

Some do but not all. The 05+ Tacoma's do not have crush cans, nor do the current 4runner or FJC bumpers. The only thing slowing impact would be the rubber bumpers.

While they don't physically have the accordian "cans" like some of the other models, they still have the same design theory. They have plenty of room to collapse and absorb some of the momentary impact. They know they could build a more rigid bumper, but they will also be the first to tell you they are not a rock-crawling company.

[cruiseroutfit]

This is one of the nicer bumpers I have seen for the 96+ Tacomas/4runners -

I guess its all personal opinion...

But what is the point of that "stinger"?

It provides little or no hood/headlight/radiator protection, at the exact spots they would reastically be needed. I would think mabey a rear bumper would be more important? Stingers are a styling cue that got there start ~10 years ago... I thought they expired a couple years back but now all the aftermarket bumper guys are bringing them back :Wow1:

I don't even want to get into the whole endo-rollover conversation.

[jeffryscott]

Wil, there may be another option. Have you seen Shrockworks bumpers? They make nice stuff.

http://www.tacomaterritory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46498&page=1&pp=30&highlight=shrockworks

Shrockworks is in the stages of finishing up their bumpers and sliders, I just checked with them for my 4Runner. They make great stuff from what I hear.

[Westy]

I guess its all personal opinion...

But what is the point of that "stinger"?

It provides little or no hood/headlight/radiator protection, at the exact spots they would reastically be needed. I would think mabey a rear bumper would be more important? Stingers are a styling cue that got there start ~10 years ago... I thought they expired a couple years back but now all the aftermarket bumper guys are bringing them back :Wow1:

I don't even want to get into the whole endo-rollover conversation.

I do agree, the stinger on that bumper is overkill and doesnt do much for protection. I'm not a huge fan of the stinger styles either..but I do think it is still a nice bumper and a good design, stinger or not. Another thing to keep in mind is having good access to the winch.

The TJM channel bumpers (no brush guard) are also a good setup and reasonably priced.

[devinsixtyseven]

But what is the point of that "stinger"?

I don't even want to get into the whole endo-rollover conversation.i know you didn't, and there's little to no point in talking about them on the expo...but that is the point of a *functional* stinger. stingers only have a place on rock buggies that are likely to endo, and any vehicle that had a *functional* stinger would also have a rollcage, or a plan for one in the near future. i have seen them used as intended in pictures and videos, and seen vehicles firsthand which have used them multiple times as intended. only perhaps one or two vehicles on the expo might ever find themselves in that position, and doubtful that it'd be on an expedition. for the rest of the world, it's just extra weight, visual obstruction, and one more thing making the vehicle longer. you can't even pull from most of the "stingers" ive seen, the bar would bend...or the welds would break...or the frame would be damaged...etc...even on the one in the picture there.

on probably (im making this number up for effect) 99% of vehicles, a stinger isn't even farkle.

all that aside...

there is an awful lot to be said for approach and departure angles that does not involve moon buggies. good angles, combined with underbelly and rocker panel protection, may preclude the need for bridging ladders, winching, digging, or stacking. while i could take a minivan on many trails with the aid of a set of bridging ladders (seen it done to support an "established" camp in wellsville, ohio aka the offroad slum), i see recovery tools as contingency plans, not primary agents for forward movement.

if you're in the middle of nowhere, particularly if it's rained recently, you never know when you may need to cross a vertical-walled wash...no rock crawling, but if you can't get the wheels near the bank of the wash, or keep the tail from dragging, you may not be able to cross without a shovel, bridging ladders and/or a winch. personally i'd rather dig with the tires than by hand, and certainly i'd prefer to dig than bridge up a potentially unstable bank...turning around may not always be an option, if you're the lucky guy to catch the first desert rainstorm on the wrong end of a long spur trail.

labeled, but not often used, roads in the backcountry do not have the same kind of maintenance schedule, funding or care that park or even blm roads have. the nps restores back roads inside the parks after weather damage. sometimes blm gets around to restoring back roads in their areas, but they often have more important priorities, and back roads with little use are low on the list. conditions get worse off blm lands, particularly on roads that are marked on a topo but not written up in a book--little to no travel, so nobody to move the fallen rock for you, fill in the ditch, stack rocks before the ledge...you're not rock crawling, but you might have to do a little creative driving once in a while, and good angles will only help you and are easy to attain for most vehicles.

good approach and departure angles are just as important as a hi-lift, an x-jack, winch, spare tire, pry bar, bridging ladders, and everything else that gets thrown on the truck. angles are not something you have to stop and unpack, and they are easily managed--all it takes in the rear is a little trimming, some touch up paint and a piece of moulding...much less than the cost of a winch or even a hilift. in the front, all it takes is good planning when building, buying or modifying a bumper.

that in mind, consider that a winch which is mounted close to the radiator will be a problem in a collision, whether it's on the road or you stuff the truck in a dune. personally, i continue to run the arb sahara bar because of the safety factor, and have not changed it because eventual changes to the truck will overcome my dissatisfaction with the sahara bar design. i dont think any custom tube bumper will be as safe in a head-on Mex1 collision as an arb or tjm with a designed crumple zone. there used to be a bumper company that built bombproof jeep bumpers back in the day...eventually two drivers with the same bumper wound up in a head-on. the bumpers were intact, but the occupants broke their necks since nothing on the bumper or frame was designed to absorb the impact. that's why youll find only 0.120" wall used in the majority of aftermarket bumpers, whether tube or "armor" style. The company is no longer in existence due to that accident--the story was passed on to me by Mike @ Trucksmith (the Hi9 guy), who steered me toward the arb design vs. building custom tube on the front of my truck.

i recall several pictures from this years' expo trophy which showed a wooden bridge and others which showed entry and exit from a wash. if either bank of the wash were vertical due to recent flash flooding, vehicles with good angles could continue driving where others dug or bridged. if you were faced with a shallow ditch similar to the bridge exercise but didn't have a few logs handy, again you'd be digging or hope you packed bridging ladders. the same goes for crossing partially iced rivers. i can even think of a particular spot on the way to the dollhouse in canyonlands which requires rock stacking to get a stock vehicle over a ledge on an otherwise very easy road, due to the approach angle required for the height of the ledge.

with the amount of money often shifted to shocks, springs, wheels, tires, and snorkels ;), why neglect something so easy, inexpensive and helpful to work with as approach and departure angles? arb is not the only "armor" style bumper manufacturer anymore, and there are now offerings with better approach angles. sure, we're not going out with the intent to crawl over the largest rocks we can find, but we might not have a choice, either. i'm not saying stay away from arb, in fact i think i've made a couple good points specifically to get one over all else, but consider the type of driving youll be doing and buy accordingly...they are not appropriate for every situation, may in fact make it harder to get down the trail, and there are "best of both worlds" solutions available.

v/r,
sean

[ParadiseCruiser]

What is your thoughts and opinions?

Like so many things, a choice such as this comes down to the intended application for the specific truck. Fortunately, perhaps, there are not so many choices for an 80 Series Cruiser... so I went with the ARB.

A few observations...

Approach angle: Agreed, the angle is not so good with this bumper, but expeditionary utility is the goal, not climbing, so this has not been an issue.

Protection: NE Calif is deer country, and this palce is filty with the critters. The bulk up front, and particularly the hoops, have saved the truck more than once. We've all seen full-size deer impacts: The damage can be considerable. Also, with fender-bender types of scrapes, the other guy always looses.

The hoops also provide a good mounting point for headlight screens. This is also logging country, and the crap that comes off the trucks is considerable. Saved many a headlight with the screens ( but not the windshield :( ).

Winch/lights: Lots of places to mount stuff.

Recovery points: None. Don't mistake those little "eyelets" directly under the vertical uprights for recovery points. Those are Hi-Lift jack attachment points. Pull anything from there - especially at an angle - and they will fail. You can always add something, of course. Many of us use recovery points attached to the frame and pull from down there.

Cheers, R -

[java]

I would have to vote custom. you can make exactly waht you want. take your time and design everyting the way you want. it will be cheaper or the same as say an ARB but will be you specs. as for the stingers, i aggree that many people dont have a functional stinger and are just for looks but they are designed to save the fron of the cab in any roll over not just an endo.
as for a stinger on a expedition vehicle i dont think its nessary unless you think there is a chance of a rollor and you can put up with that damn thing blocking your view all the time! my.02

[cruiseroutfit]

i know you didn't, and there's little to no point in talking about them on the expo...but that is the point of a *functional* stinger. stingers only have a place on rock buggies that are likely to endo, and any vehicle that had a *functional* stinger would also have a rollcage, or a plan for one in the near future. i have seen them used as intended in pictures and videos, and seen vehicles firsthand which have used them multiple times as intended....

I'll still debate their purpose anywhere... :D :elkgrin:

I spent 3 years competing in UROC (professional rockcrawling) all over the USA in a LS1 powers tube chassis, including driving in the Super Crawl World Finals held in Las Vegas (parking lot of SEMA) ;) There were alot of stinger style bumpers in the first generations of crawlers, but it faded there and reappeared in the aftermarket bolt on market.

[devinsixtyseven]

most excellent :D...

did they give up the "rhino" look because they kept running in to stuff, or when somebody realized that with a tube chassis, the engine was already protected...or both :D...the functional "stingers", if you can even call them that anymore, that i see now are very, very low profile...no more the "happy truck" look :p.

personally i really like a bar of some sort up front, it's useful as an aid to see where the front of the truck is. when i first got the tundra, i bounced the front bumper off a few things...now i use the chrome hoop on the sahara bar to judge distance. even tho i'm not sure i dig the chrome, it's very easy to see and a great indicator since the front of the bumper is inches away from the hoop. something like that, which would protect the grille and winch, just over the top of the hood so it's easily visible from the driver's seat, that didn't increase the length of the vehicle...now that would be very useful. youll always know where the front is, and it's easy to tie in limb lines if you go where youd need them. the arb and demello designs for the taco do a great job of that, and a simple brush guard/indicator hoop looks like it'd be really easy to add to the bentup bumper...

-sean

[OldSven]

You forgot www.badlandbumpers.com :D

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f294/OldSven/P1010005.jpg

[calamaridog]

Some of the nicest bumpers I've seen are the ones from Bent-up. They can personalize them to suit your needs too.

This is basically a low volume "custom" bumper.

They are slow to ship and you won't be getting instant gratification, like if you bought an ARB.

[TACODOC]

I guess I'll stir the pot here since CBI has updated their site with more pics :coffee:

CBI Website (http://www.cbioffroadfab.com/items.php)

[flyingwil]

I guess I'll stir the pot here since CBI has updated their site with more pics :coffee:

CBI Website (http://www.cbioffroadfab.com/items.php)

How is that stiring the pot when one of the choices is CBI (last picture in the first post)?

I still have not decided!:sport_box

[TACODOC]

How is that stiring the pot when one of the choices is CBI (last picture in the first post)?

Umm... Cuz CBI has updated their site with more pics!

I guess I better find my flame suit... Sheesh! :ar15: