Viking Off-Road Recovery Hitch photos

[c.nordstrom]

We have received photos of Viking Off-Road's new recovery hitch. This product originally appeared in the Summer 2009 issue of Overland Journal in the "News from the Trade" column. The article featured CAD drawings but we now have photos of the actual product.

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"Thor Jonsson at Viking Off-Road set out to design and produce the ultimate receiver-mounted shackle bracket. Designed with SolidWorks CAD software and CNC-machined from a billet of 1018 steel, the hitch is nickel-plated for a durable and clean finish. Viking Off-Road stress-tested the unit to failure and found it withstood shock loading to 52,200 pounds for more than 1,000 load cycles. The hitch is designed for use with Viking's 4.75-metric-ton shackles, giving a working load limit of 10,471 pounds and a 4X safety factor, for a minimum breaking strength of 41,884 pounds. vikingoffroad.com, 818-506-9789"

[Redline]

I want one :sombrero:

[SAR_Squid79]

I love Viking Off Road. My winch, my winch line, and most of the rest of my recovery kit came from them.
That Receiver Shackle is definitley a thing of beauty!

-BUT-
$110.00?!?!?!

Warn Receiver Shackle - $42.95
Superwinch Receiver Shackle - $47.99

[TACODOC]

ExPo Bling :Wow1:

[Cody1771]

that looks expensive.... :Wow1:




^ Woot!! 200th post

[Street Wolf]

Holy crap thats nice


But...


Holy crap look at that price

[BIGdaddy]

ExPo Bling :Wow1:

WATCH OUT! you're now going to be inundated with posts saying that you


"you really need to see it in person", and

"some people simply choose to spend money on original american made products"

, and that, "quality has to be paid for.."

haha...I made that mistake once. :D

[AFSOC]

WATCH OUT! you're now going to be inundated with posts saying that you


"you really need to see it in person", and

"some people simply choose to spend money on original american made products"

, and that, "quality has to be paid for.."

haha...I made that mistake once. :D

LMAO! :wings:

You're right, there's always some of that depending on the vendor's alliances. Usually those posts are made by people who aren't paying said prices for those pieces.

[superpowerdave]

It's really pretty ... does that make it worth the extra coin? Not for my needs, but maybe for others.

I've never done business with Viking but have heard nothing but the best about them. Maybe while we are all jumping the shark on the price and the bling, they saw a need and filled the niche for their customers.

If that was the case then great; we need more small, personable companies filling the voids in our market and that is better for everyone.

[saburai]

Please point me to a good unit at a more affordable price....

[Life_in_4Lo]

Warn reciever shackle bracket is $11

[xcmountain80]

X2

a

[BIGdaddy]

It's really pretty ... does that make it worth the extra coin? Not for my needs, but maybe for others.

I've never done business with Viking but have heard nothing but the best about them. Maybe while we are all jumping the shark on the price and the bling, they saw a need and filled the niche for their customers.

If that was the case then great; we need more small, personable companies filling the voids in our market and that is better for everyone.

x2 on what I've heard of viking.

It's like Kia bringing out the Borrego SUV in the middle of the soaring
gas prices, though..haha! When everyone else is bringing out gas-sipping
compacts, here comes kia with a quality, well built SUV that no-one
has the budget or credit to buy. LOL.

(Not sayin' this shackle mount isn't sexy as heck :D)

[ntsqd]

Very nice looking part, but 1018 is about as generic a steel as you can get. So "ultimate" seems like a bit of a stretch to me. If it were made from something interesting like 17-4 H900 or 1144 or 7068........

[Scott Brady]

There are very clear differences between the Viking shackle bracket and a typical unit.

1. No rattles in the receiver.
2. No rattles at the shackle attachment.
3. Option to mount vertical or horizontal depending on the load force.
4. Rust-free, quality finish.
5. CNC machined, not cast. No sharp edges.

It is only $50 more than a typical shackle bracket, and IMO, more than twice as good.

Remember, the value of something is never determined by the people who do not buy it, but by the people who do. There are 99.99999% of Americans who will not, or could not buy a Bugatti Veyron for 1.4 million dollars. They have no influence on the value of the car. The manufacture sets the price, and those rare 300 individuals confirm the value. All 300 were sold. . .
http://www.supercars.dk/cars/bugatti/bugatti-veyron.gif
The car gets 2.05 MPG at full throttle.

[Life_in_4Lo]

LOLZ
so a overpriced receiver hole is on par with a Bugatti Veyron...

If you need one, get a quality Warn for $48 Amazon.com
save the chi-chi for actual cool stuff.

[Redline]

Yep, my dad taught me that things are worth what someone is willing to pay.

Not sure if/when I will buy one of these, but I do have a very expensive shovel mounted to my rear swing away that cost many times more than the typical shovel most carry on their rigs. Was the shovel a waste of money, maybe. It may also be a lifetime (or lifeline) investment.
:smiley_drive:

[BIGdaddy]

its started, dave.

see, i told ya....:D

[spencyg]

There is a fair amount of CNC run time in this unit....most shops get at least $100/hr so just in machining time alone you can see where the cost comes from. They probably aren't making a ton of these, and from the looks of it, everything is done right. I wouldn't personally spend money on it, but I think the price is very fair considering what it is and the labor which has gone into it. These are not forged units made by the thousands...one at a time means its going to cost ya. It also means you'll probably be the only one in a 250 mile radius who has one, if that counts for anything :) Compairning the Viking unit to a Warn unit is like comparing a Volvo S80R to my 940 Wagon...they both get ya there but only one doesn't reduce your sperm count.
Spence

[Scott Brady]

its started, dave.

see, i told ya....:D

So, make a valid argument to the contrary. We are big kids, and nothing wrong with a healthy discussion.

The world is full of expensive items.

[BIGdaddy]

So, make a valid argument to the contrary. We are big kids, and nothing wrong with a healthy discussion.

The world is full of expensive items.


ok, here goes.



Warn Receiver Shackle - $42.95
Superwinch Receiver Shackle - $47.99


The above listed items have worked for a long time, at half the price, without much drama.

While I appreciate the ability to mount the shackle pin vertical or horizontal
to increase versatility, I've recovered enough vehicles to know that with a normal horizontal pin orientation; with the shackle able to move up and down, that the tow rope/strap will slip side to side enough to mitigate any problems with side loads.

-even with the load at a 90 degree angle I have a hard time thinking the rope would have any contact with possible sharp edges. I've never seen or heard of a tow rope failing due to wear at the loop end due to chafing. (most good ropes/straps have leather at this spot anyways, to keep this from happening)

-my shackle mount was 40.00 at 4wheelparts, is smooth, and doesn't rattle at
the pin or at the shackle.

- How I think of it in more everyman terms is like those who want to improve upon time tested bullet calibers...sure the new short magnums are flatter-shooting and groovy, but a 30-06 will stop a deer dead in its tracks every time if the hunter does his/her job out to around 200-300 yards, and has done so for a 100 or so years.

Does it mean the new calibers are a bad thing? Nope.

But, does it really improve on anything? Nope.

That said, I still think both the new short magnums and this shackle mount are pretty cool and at the same time pretty unnecessary.

One gun writer once wrote, "Its the job of the gun industry to convince you
that your .45acp, 30-06, and 12 gauge aren't meeting your needs. They then
sell you the solution."

Something like that. :D

thanks for the encouragement to express myself like a grownup, Scott...:elkgrin:

[SAR_Squid79]

My most used motto for building my truck has always been "Buy the best parts, and you only have to cry once". Meaning that if you cut corners and buy a cheaper part, chances are you're going to have to replace that part again one day. Whereas if you spend the extra money, and buy the best part for the job in the beginning, it's probably going to last. The initial price might sting a bit, but you'll probably never have to buy another one of . . . whatever.

Take my Supercharger for example. Could I just bolt it on and go? TRD / Toyota says yes. Lots of people have done just that. I spent about $2,000 on upgrades to ensure that my supercharged engine is as bullet-proof as possible. I understand the way a supercharger works, and I see a distinct advantage to running the fuel system upgrades, and end-user tunability.

I have a Warn receiver shackle that I bought in 2005 for $36.00 + shipping. As far as I know - the Warn Receiver Shackle was the only such unit available when I bought mine. I have used it maybe 5 or 6 times since I've had it. It has always served its purpose as a totally adequate recovery point. I've never had a moments doubt about it's quality or reliability. Nor have I had any reservations about my safety while using it. I don't really need it any more for my rig, but it stays in my recovery kit in case I need it to recover someone who wasn't prepared to get stuck.

The only distinct difference I see in this new Viking Receiver Shackle is the ability to have the shackle in a vertical orientation (allowing the shackle to swing on a horizontal plane).
My Warn unit does not rattle in the hitch receiver.
My Warn unit does not allow for any rattle in the Shackle.
My Warn unit has no rust.

Can someone who knows more about recovery that I, explain the distinct advantage of being able to mount the shackle vertically, and why - if I needed to do that - couldn't I add a 2nd shackle oriented vertically, looped through the 1st horizontally mounted shackle? Why would the horizontal swing of the shackle be neccessary, if that type of motion is neccessary in a recovery situation, why would the horizontal slip movement of a recovery strap be insufficient?



Don't get me wrong - if I were a wealthier man, and I didn't already have a receiver shackle that had served me well for many years, I would buy one of these Viking units. As someone who has owned and used this type of device, I do not understand how there is enough of an advantage to warrant a 306% increase in price (My Warn unit cost $36.00 compared to $110.00).

[Momrocks]

its started, dave.

see, i told ya....:D

Ha, ha, ha :coffeedrink:
You called it alright...you have a keen sense of the obvious. I'll have to see some accurate forecasting of lotto numbers before I call you a soothsayer though.

[Life_in_4Lo]

explain the distinct advantage of being able to mount the shackle vertically, and why - if I needed to do that - couldn't I add a 2nd shackle oriented vertically, looped through the 1st horizontally mounted shackle? Why would the horizontal swing of the shackle be neccessary, if that type of motion is neccessary in a recovery situation, why would the horizontal slip movement of a recovery strap be insufficient?



None.
Your method is fine too.

Spend more for a quality product. I can understand a nice shovel or flashlight or whatever but this is a chunk of metal with a couple holes in it!
It's a little adapter for a hitch. You pay for the pull rating. This will not outlast, outperform or give more features than anything else.

Even the Warn is a bit expensive paying for the Warn name but this is just chi-chi. That's fine, people like pretty things (even though most of it is hidden inside the hitch) and willing to pay for it but there is no advantage to the Viking.

[SAR_Squid79]

Does it mean the new calibers are a bad thing? Nope.

But, does it really improve on anything? Nope.


Actually - I think you have found the perfect analogy. Guns.

A $200 Mossberg shotgun is perfectly fine for shooting trap. Yet I've seen people show up to the range with $18,000 Perazzis, and shoot just as bad as me!

[Scott Brady]

It is unique, has a high-quality finish, is super strong and has a few more features.

Again, why is that a bad thing? There are items like that in ANY market space. Sure, a $15 coffee maker from Walmart will make coffee, for a while, but there are people who want the very best coffee, and are willing to spend 100x that amount for something made in Italy, out of stainless steel.

If you would not buy it, or cannot afford it, or don't care to justify the expense, why care so much? Why spend the energy to disparage the product on the forum? In reality, the motivation is obvious. . .

It would be different if it sucked, or if the design was obviously flawed, or if it was worse than the others and only more expensive. Clearly, it is better, if even in minor ways.

[BIGdaddy]

Actually - I think you have found the perfect analogy. Guns.

A $200 Mossberg shotgun is perfectly fine for shooting trap. Yet I've seen people show up to the range with $18,000 Perazzis, and shoot just as bad as me!

right, and to say the $18,000 gun is bad would be wrong, cuz it isn't bad, its just unnecessary to get the job done. Sure if you collect guns and thats ur purpose, by all means, buy that gun and be happy. But you surely wouldn't advise a friend getting into the gun business to build that type of gun ( the market would be a tiny, niche market), nor would you advise a friend who simply wants to shoot trap, and have one gun to do so, to buy it(the job can be very effectively done with a tool 1/bizzionth the price.)

I'm simply giving honest responses about a product that a very good company (Viking) might choose to produce on a larger scale. I'm the target market. I'm a fourwheeler who has spend thousands and thousands of dollars in this market. I've been doing it for a long time.

Thats why I choose to comment.

Dave (adventureDuo) just posted up about a new product in his own thread, and I have to say that I like it. I don't see anything like it on the market, its built with durability in mind and its pricing while not cheap is not exorbanant(haha...sp?) either for a product with no competition and built to be bought once, as compared to this shackle which is twice, if not three times as expensive as its competitors who have a proven track record.

:)

[Willman]

:lurk:


I'd buy it! I would pay the $$$$ for it!

Besides....It's from Viking Offroad! Supporting a great recovery vendor with a very cool new product.

You only cry once......I buy A LOT of Filson clothes (http://www.filson.com/home/index.jsp)....many people say the same thing about them.....but when rains come....It sure feels good to stay dry with a lifetime guarantee!

;)

[SAR_Squid79]

It's easy to say "I don't care what people think" or "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all" or "if you can't afford it - don't worry about it"

But the truth is - the reason we post things on these forums, is because WE DO want to know what people think. I'm just giving my opinion.

As I've said a few times already - I think this product is beautiful, and top quality. Viking Off Road is actually the name I trust the most in recovery gear. I have given them a lot of my money in the past and I will continue to buy from them in the future.

As a consumer who spends most of my recreational budget on Off Road parts and accessories, I'm not implying that there is ANYTHING bad or wrong with this product, I'm simply saying that I think $110 is a little unreasonable. If I owned a CNC machine I would totally rip this thing off, and make an exact duplicate for my very own. I would definitely pay $65 for this. I MIGHT be willing to pay $75. But even I won the lottery, I couldn't justify paying over $100. That's just my 2 cents. I hope these things sell like hot cakes for Viking. ...Maybe I'll win one in a raffle. :D

[I Leak Oil]

So far what I've absorbed from this is it's nice but expensive. There is an argument to be made for the difference in price between the Viking and the Warn/Superwinch/ no name brand as far as being effective in a recovery situation. Some want nothing but the best and I have no problem with what someone else spends their money on. I like to be selective as to what I want the best of. This isn't one of those things, but if I did I wouldn't lose sleep over who doesn't like what I spend my money on.
As far as the noise issue, if the Viking unit does eliminate the noise associated with other, ill fitting units then think about what the alternative, rattle free, recovery points would cost to mount to a custom bumper. If all you have is a 2" receiver hitch the money spent on the Viking unit is cheap in comparison to a custom bumper and custom recovery points.
Most of us spend quite a bit of money on parts we don't really "need" to see the places we want to see. Look at the trailer section here on ExPo. How many have spent hundreds, if not thousands of dollars on a trailer they use to "camp" in a few times a year? What matters is they are happy with what they've bought or made.
So, again, the Viking unit is nice but expensive. So what.....:beer:have a beer and relax!

[AFSOC]

If you would not buy it, or cannot afford it, or don't care to justify the expense, why care so much? Why spend the energy to disparage the product on the forum? In reality, the motivation is obvious. . .


Scott,

I sugest you re-read the posts. I don't think anyone disparaged the product. Overwhelmingly people praised the product. Overwhelmingly people voiced their opinions that they do NOT think that they can justify paying the considerable list price when compared to the form, fit, function and performance of competitors offerings. People have kindly explained the points that lead them to their opinion. Please explain what you see as the "obvious motivation".

[ntsqd]

Perhaps my comment was taken wrongly. There is nothing inherently wrong their choice of steel alloy, it's just not what I would choose if I were intending to make the ultimate such device.

[Redline]

I'm with you Nic regarding Filson and their motto... "Might As Well Have The Best" :)


:lurk:


I'd buy it! I would pay the $$$$ for it!

Besides....It's from Viking Offroad! Supporting a great recovery vendor with a very cool new product.

You only cry once......I buy A LOT of Filson clothes (http://www.filson.com/home/index.jsp)....many people say the same thing about them.....but when rains come....It sure feels good to stay dry with a lifetime guarantee!

;)

[teotwaki]

It is unique, has a high-quality finish, is super strong and has a few more features.

Again, why is that a bad thing? There are items like that in ANY market space. Sure, a $15 coffee maker from Walmart will make coffee, for a while, but there are people who want the very best coffee, and are willing to spend 100x that amount for something made in Italy, out of stainless steel.

If you would not buy it, or cannot afford it, or don't care to justify the expense, why care so much? Why spend the energy to disparage the product on the forum? In reality, the motivation is obvious. . .

It would be different if it sucked, or if the design was obviously flawed, or if it was worse than the others and only more expensive. Clearly, it is better, if even in minor ways.

I would very respectfully offer up that any of the forum owners (or a business that monetarily supports the forum) has an obvious motivation when it comes to products that the typical forum user might buy.

So I would ask if you are not actually selling the Viking product why would you care that we don't like the price of the Viking product? :)

[Scott Brady]

I do that with all kinds of stuff :D, and not just on this forum.

Someone's Disco that is called overpriced, the value of a Unicat. An expensive chair, etc. I am always defending the "value" of things, even if it has nothing to do with a sponsor.

I guess I am looking for some good old fashioned debate and critical thinking. Commenting that something is too expensive is fine if that person understands the material used, the CAD time, the margins, the coating and packaging, etc. Then I could see it. It is such basic economics that it drives me nuts for some odd reason - who knows. Maybe I have been spending too much time in the office recently :snorkel:

But for someone to just say. "Man, that is too much for that there thing", all they are really saying is. "Man, I would never spend my money on that there thing".

Right?

[teotwaki]

I do that with all kinds of stuff :D, and not just on this forum.

Someone's Disco that is called overpriced, the value of a Unicat. An expensive chair, etc. I am always defending the "value" of things, even if it has nothing to do with a sponsor.

I guess I am looking for some good old fashioned debate and critical thinking. Commenting that something is too expensive is fine if that person understands the material used, the CAD time, the margins, the coating and packaging, etc. Then I could see it. It is such basic economics that it drives me nuts for some odd reason - who knows. Maybe I have been spending too much time in the office recently :snorkel:

But for someone to just say. "Man, that is too much for that there thing", all they are really saying is. "Man, I would never spend my money on that there thing".

Right?


Good stuff, especially joining "Critical" with "Thinking" in one sentence. :sombrero:

I think that most of your desires were addressed but not in one coherent post. Many experienced folks know right away (without any research) that a typical hitch shackle really cannot be improved very much. Next step is to jump to a (fairly correct) conclusion that the Viking product is not something that they'll be buying for double the price of a common receiver shackle mount. Why debate the finer points of something that you know you won't buy?

Those who might have actually been tempted to buy it were the ones who looked for a reason to do so and the Viking product did not make the cut. Thsoe folks may or may not have actually posted their reasons about why they would not buy it.

Then there are folks like us posting about the quality of the posts.....:bike_rider:

[Redline]

All the pro and con debate aside, they're not too expensive if they can sell a few and make a profit. :elkgrin:


I do that with all kinds of stuff :D, and not just on this forum.

Someone's Disco that is called overpriced, the value of a Unicat. An expensive chair, etc. I am always defending the "value" of things, even if it has nothing to do with a sponsor.

I guess I am looking for some good old fashioned debate and critical thinking. Commenting that something is too expensive is fine if that person understands the material used, the CAD time, the margins, the coating and packaging, etc. Then I could see it. It is such basic economics that it drives me nuts for some odd reason - who knows. Maybe I have been spending too much time in the office recently :snorkel:

But for someone to just say. "Man, that is too much for that there thing", all they are really saying is. "Man, I would never spend my money on that there thing".

Right?

[TACODOC]

Wow, I hope it wasn't me who lit this here powder keg :peepwall:

When I stated "ExPo Bling" :Wow1: early on in the thread, I meant just that and in a "Holy Cow that's the most high speed piece of kit I've seen lately."

Nothing negative was meant by it. I think some may have taken that comment in an unintended direction.

For the record, I'm a big fan of Viking's stuff and plan to add a few of thier pieces to my bag eventually.

Carry on! :coffee:

[rynosurf]

There are very clear differences between the Viking shackle bracket and a typical unit.

1. No rattles in the receiver.
2. No rattles at the shackle attachment.


If it made the rest of my truck not rattle I would buy it! Kidding, it looks awesome but for the price I could replace my beat up Hi Lift. (If a Hi Lift was machined would you pay 3 times the amount for it?)

[BIGdaddy]

:lurk:


I'd buy it! I would pay the $$$$ for it!

Besides....It's from Viking Offroad! Supporting a great recovery vendor with a very cool new product.

You only cry once......I buy A LOT of Filson clothes (http://www.filson.com/home/index.jsp)....many people say the same thing about them.....but when rains come....It sure feels good to stay dry with a lifetime guarantee!

;)


:elkgrin: nice post...I'll have to check out that link.

[RHINO]

well i'll put it this way, its got no value to me, not because of the price but because i dont need it. (i kinda want it though)

[nwoods]

But for someone to just say. "Man, that is too much for that there thing", all they are really saying is. "Man, I would never spend my money on that there thing".

Right?

No, I think there is a line, and this sculpted, artistic, functional, and dare I say sexy piece of gear crosses that line. Some things are functional, some things are beautiful, very few things are both, but rarely does one justify a 200% cost increase over the other.

If Thor could get 4WheelParts or Quadratech or similar to carry this, and he could get some volume margins, then we would all say, WOW, look at this kick *** piece of gear I just snagged. It was only $75 and included the worlds best shackle too! But when you get an overwhelming majority of negative posts on this forum that celebrates "glamping", clearly a line has been crossed.

Do I want one? Yes! Do I appreciate it? Yes! Will I buy it? No....but perhaps I can win one in a raffle some day :-)

[spencyg]

If I owned a CNC machine I would totally rip this thing off, and make an exact duplicate for my very own.

I DO own a CNC machine, and I can tell you you'd be far better off paying the $110 if your time is of any value.

$10 for the steel
30 minutes for design in your choice of $5000 3D design programs...
30 minutes for CNC programming in your choice of $15k CNC Code programs...
30 minutes of setup #1 on the $30k CNC 3 axis mill
20 minutes run time
30 more minutes for setup #2 on the $30K 3 axis mill
20 more minutes of run time
10 minutes to deburr
Send it out for plating...to do just one, probably $30

So, we have $40 in material
170 minutes of your time
Use of $50k of software and equipment which, if you own it, is costing you a ton of money every single minute.

I'd rather just spend $110.

Spence

(P.S. That scenario above plays out in my shop time and time again....I seldom get business from anybody who wants some trick custom parts for their truck...at $75/hr shop rate, that hitch just cost 'em $250)

[dieselcruiserhead]

Before I commented I went down to my shop and take a look at my Warn receiver block that I've had since... 1997 when it came with a 1975 FJ40 I bought? And still looks as good as it ever has?

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=32183&stc=1&d=1252596792

It's forged, not cast. This is the same process for steering arms and other areas on your truck that need extremely high strength/life or death scenario if it fails. This is one of the strongest metal manufacturing techniques, period.

Billet is a cheaper manufacturing technique related usually to flexibility of cheap manufacturing and small demand (spencyg owns a CNC machine for example). They literally take a block of steel and whittle it down. Even in stainless applications it usually looks good for the immediate future but gets dinged up and rusts fairly quickly. Yes, even stainless. This is why billet items are also hugely over-sized, because they need to be. Because they are weaker...

That said I don't think either would ever fail, but I guarantee the Viking will look much worse in two years. Secondly if you live in a high moisture area where rust develops easily, like New England, if you left that thing in your bumper for a year or two, I wouldn't be a bit surprised to find it rusted into your receiver or having to use a hammer to get it out.

It is funny to me that somehow the Viking is placed in the category of "don't skimp" and "you get what you pay for" --simply because of its higher price -- when it is less superior in every single category.

[RHINO]

right-on dre,,,, i was going to comment on the fact that if we really wanted to buy for strength and safety it seems we would follow the military example,,, an outfit that typically makes requests for obscenely strong products and out of the box engineering feats to get them. they also just happen to have the money to back that need up and re-supply on a whim if something better comes along.

will the military switch from forged steel to billet because it costs more and must be better? we'll see but i doubt it.

i am sure viking would agree (and i would love to see them post here) that they were anticipating a very small market for these because the price reflects it. do any of you remember the billet receivers that got popular a few years ago? exactly the same process to manufacture, exactly the same process to test and certify weight ratings and stuff, but they spit them out for well under $100 because the market was much much bigger.

some would have you believe otherwise, but the price of something doesnt always dictate a better product. those who buy this product will be buying a product they like and want and that, my friends, is worth every penny.

[spencyg]

A forged component will always be much stronger than a similar billet component. The "billet" tag seems to have come about in the last decade or so as a trademark of "quality" and "unique". How many billet valve covers do you see in a Summit catalog? Billet this...billet that. DCH nailed it on the head. Billet components are the result of quick manufacturing and "one-off". The cost of tooling associated with forging makes it fiscally impossible to reproduce unless you're planning on selling tens of thousands of a particular product. That being said, for a situation like this, I think the Warn is probably overkill and this billet unit will do fine. In regards to plating...yes...it usually looks good for awhile and then deteriorates. I used to work in the automotive industry, and the typical standard for automotive safety-critical (i.e. steering) components is a 480hr salt spray tolerance before rusting to the point of failure. That isn't much time....

Spence

[Scott Brady]

These are all fair comments. I am going to spend some time with the two mounts I have and document them in more detail.

Since none of the posters have a Viking bracket, I will do a little video to show the differences in shackle fit, receiver fit, etc. Obviously, the Viking bracket has the bling factor going for it and the ability to mount vertical and horizontal. The 50,000+ lb. MBS makes any claims of strength advantage of one over the other entirely mute.

Some more research is needed to evaluate strength and material advantages. Casting obviously has higher initial cost and lower long-term costs. It is the other way around for billet-machined, which makes sense for the Viking part.

Maybe someone with professional experience with the various manufacturing methods can comment.

For now, I see these facts:

Strength: Mute point, as both are stronger than the application requires.
Fit and Finish: Clearly to the advantage of the Viking unit, though the functional advantage is only a reduction in rattles and a better appearance.
Functionality: Clearly to the advantage of the Viking unit, with the ability to mount vertical or horizontal to limit side loading of the shackle screw pin.
Cost: Clearly to the advantage of the traditional Warn and Superwinch units, by a factor of 100%.

Another fact is that the Warn and Superwinch units obviously work fine.

[Life_in_4Lo]

It is funny to me that somehow the Viking is placed in the category of "don't skimp" and "you get what you pay for" --simply because of its higher price -- when it is less superior in every single category.

right on

as for the pros/cons-

Strength goes to the Warn. It may be a "mute point" but the fact Viking is selling at over 200% premium and is the Bugatti Veyron of hitch reciever holes, shouldn't it be stronger than the Warn?

earlier in this thread it was "rattle free" at the hitch and shackle.
Now it's "a reduction in rattles"?
It's going to rattle or it isn't. Any hitch reciever will rattle unless it has a spring loaded "anti-rattle" pin or a scrap piece of rubber stuffed in there.

Vertical or horizontal mounting might be 'more functional' but it's unimportant enough to not ever be a real issue. Look at all the recovery points on all bumpers, aftermarket or not.

Finish will be worse on the Viking after a little use and age. In any case it's irrelevant. How much of this is actually visible to even care?

[Scott Brady]

Andre,

I am interested in your answers to the following categories:



Strength: Mute point, as both are stronger than the application requires.
Fit and Finish: Clearly to the advantage of the Viking unit, though the functional advantage is only a reduction in rattles and a better appearance.
Functionality: Clearly to the advantage of the Viking unit, with the ability to mount vertical or horizontal to limit side loading of the shackle screw pin.
Cost: Clearly to the advantage of the traditional Warn and Superwinch units, by a factor of 100%.

[Scott Brady]

It is funny to me that somehow the Viking is placed in the category of "don't skimp" and "you get what you pay for" --simply because of its higher price -- when it is less superior in every single category.

Andre,

I am interested in your answers to the following categories:



Strength: Mute point, as both are stronger than the application requires.
Fit and Finish: Clearly to the advantage of the Viking unit, though the functional advantage is only a reduction in rattles and a better appearance.
Functionality: Clearly to the advantage of the Viking unit, with the ability to mount vertical or horizontal to limit side loading of the shackle screw pin.
Cost: Clearly to the advantage of the traditional Warn and Superwinch units, by a factor of 100%.

[Momrocks]

It is only $50 more than a typical shackle bracket, and IMO, more than twice as good.


These are all fair comments. I am going to spend some time with the two mounts I have and document them in more detail.

Since none of the posters have a Viking bracket, I will do a little video to show the differences in shackle fit, receiver fit, etc. Obviously, the Viking bracket has the bling factor going for it and the ability to mount vertical and horizontal. The 50,000+ lb. MBS makes any claims of strength advantage of one over the other entirely mute.

Some more research is needed to evaluate strength and material advantages. Casting obviously has higher initial cost and lower long-term costs. It is the other way around for billet-machined, which makes sense for the Viking part.

Maybe someone with professional experience with the various manufacturing methods can comment.

For now, I see these facts:

Strength: Mute point, as both are stronger than the application requires.
Fit and Finish: Clearly to the advantage of the Viking unit, though the functional advantage is only a reduction in rattles and a better appearance.
Functionality: Clearly to the advantage of the Viking unit, with the ability to mount vertical or horizontal to limit side loading of the shackle screw pin.
Cost: Clearly to the advantage of the traditional Warn and Superwinch units, by a factor of 100%.

Another fact is that the Warn and Superwinch units obviously work fine.

Scott,

Good point/counter point but I am still unclear why you consider this product "more than twice as good" as competing products? The info would point mainly to a fashion advantage.

.

[Scott Brady]

Scott,

Good point/counter point but I am still unclear why you consider this product "more than twice as good" as competing products? The info would point mainly to a fashion advantage.
.

I should not have said twice as good. It is only better in small ways, some of which will be unimportant to the typical buyer. And functionally, in the field, the only advantage is the orientation option.

I would also agree that the standout attribute is appearance and uniqueness

[Momrocks]

in the field, the only advantage is the orientation option.

Let's shift the discussion to the orientation. I'd like to explore that. The appearence issue is talked out. I don't know what the advantages are, if any, of vertical vs. horizontal orientation and would like to hear some opinions.

.

[RHINO]

Strength: Mute point, as both are stronger than the application requires.
Fit and Finish: Clearly to the advantage of the Viking unit, though the functional advantage is only a reduction in rattles and a better appearance.
Functionality: Clearly to the advantage of the Viking unit, with the ability to mount vertical or horizontal to limit side loading of the shackle screw pin.
Cost: Clearly to the advantage of the traditional Warn and Superwinch units, by a factor of 100%.





my only disagreement to you is finish,,, i much prefer the old standby to this pretty unit, i mean can you imagine what this thing will make my piggy look like if i put it on ? :sombrero:

[Scott Brady]

Let's shift the discussion to the orientation. I'd like to explore that. The appearence issue is talked out. I don't know what the advantages are, if any, of vertical vs. horizontal orientation and would like to hear some opinions.

.

The weakest point of the screw-pin, d-shackle is a side-loaded pin. Just like a carabiner has a required orientation.

I do not want to split hairs here. If you use a Van Beast shackle, even the orientation is mostly irrelevant. 60,000+ MBS on those 19mm units.

It is much like the gun comment earlier. It is completely understandable why someone would buy/shoot a Holland and Holland over a Winchester. However, both will drop a bird in the same manner.

Functionality must be assumed with any product worth buying. Functionality is not only assumed with both of these products, it is a fact. The Warn unit is not "better" in any functional category. So, if functionality is assumed, then one would buy the Warn shackle receiver for its value and one would buy the Viking because of its uniqueness and appearance.

[RedRocker]

That thing is a work of art, very nice work.
Moot point on strength, you'll never break either one.
I usually just stick my strap in the receiver hole and
slide the pin through the loop, that's free.:sombrero:

[dieselcruiserhead]

I don't want to get into the specifics but I've owned that one for a long time and a clevis D ring clearly goes in it just fine and it doesn't rattle in any manor that I have ever noticed. As mentioned strength is probably just fine in either unit.

I don't know if you've ever owned any billet products for durations of time in off road apps, but they look awesome in the beginning and look like *** in just a couple years, stainless or not. The last thing I want to have to do it pull out, oil or lube or polish or whatever, my slide in shackle receiver. I would actually like to ask someone who realistically off roads regularly and uses it, to purchase one and report back in two years. I will bet that person $20 right now the Warn unit will surpass the Viking unit in cosmetics, which really seems to be the only issue here, in two years.

Regards,
Andre

[muskyman]

6 pages on a reciever insert?

I have used warns and I have used generic ones and you know what...dosent frigging matter they all work.:rolleyes:

[bobDog]

I love Viking Off Road. My winch, my winch line, and most of the rest of my recovery kit came from them.
That Receiver Shackle is definitley a thing of beauty!

-BUT-
$110.00?!?!?!

Warn Receiver Shackle - $42.95
Superwinch Receiver Shackle - $47.99 I bet if you drop that honey in the muddy water you go looking for it!:coffeedrink:

[Redline]

I was going to stay quiet for a while but... :)

Noise:

I have two Warn units that are several years old (10+?) that do fit loose/rattle inside the receivers when moved about. I can't say that I have heard that looseness/noise, as for most of their lives they have been used on an F350 Diesel and it would take a very calm condition to hear the clevis mount rattling.

I do remember noting the looseness upon installation, wishing it fit better (but I had no reason for this other than it seemed to be quite loose, held only by the pin). It is certainly possible that if I used my Warn clevis recovery mounts on my much quieter and smoother riding 4Runner that I would be able to hear the clevis mounts rattling when on-highway, and it might bother me some. The 4Runner is so quiet and rattle free that I can hear my rear tire swing-away squeak if the latch doesn't stay up and completely tight.

Loose Fit:

Though I wanted a better(?) fitting clevis mount it’s possible that the looser fit may be a design feature. On a few aftermarket bumpers I have used, solid 2" square ball-mount towing hitches do not fit into the receiver provided with the bumper. My local trailer shop explained that many bumper manufacturers don't use the proper 2" receiver tubing material (whatever it is) but use generic 2" tube that is of a difference specification, slightly smaller. I have had to grind away material on the male end/shank of the tow ball mount on two hitches, one a load-distribution hitch for a travel trailer and another a 10-inch drop ball/pintle combo mount to make them fit into the receivers on my current Reunel and CBI rear bumpers. Hollow 2" ball mounts are slightly smaller, with rounded edges, and I have not had to modify these mounts to insert them into aftermarket bumpers/receivers.

If the smaller external dimensions of the Warn type clevis recovery mount was designed to fit any/all 2" receivers, that was a very sharp move. Maybe it was just luck or they were using less material?

Finish/Function:

My clevis mounts have ridden in the receiver mounts on the F350 for most of their lives, the front one is rarely removed. When removed, I have noted some light surface rust on the finish, on the bottom side, but surely this is a cosmetic imperfection that doesn't affects the function and it not visible unless removed.

Yes the Viking unit looks better and I do like that, but I would not like if it looked worse after a few years. However, if it worked better I may still prefer it. Upon seeing it in this thread for the first time, I noted two things immediately; that it is 'sharp' with its bling finish, and that it has the flexibility to be mounted horizontally or vertically.

The latter point I thought may have a functional advantage on a severe side pull, but I will leave that argument to those that know more about recovery than I.

[bobDog]

Man If i was rich and had a walnut coffee table I'd buy one of those to hold my National G down and then my friends could ask what it was. I would smile and reply....'I got it off a space shuttle at NASA' :coffeedrink:

[Momrocks]

Well, I never thought I would spend so much time reading about receiver shackles but I have.

I have come to some conclusions too...they're my conclusions.
The Viking is pretty, at least when new. It's damn expensive. Thor is a cool guy. The cost to produce the Viking probably justifies the high price tag. The performance advantages are negligible and largely theoretical. Offerings by Warn and Superwinch are proven. The Warn and Superwinch pieces represent value by comparison. General consensus is that product improvement in this segment market was not really necessary.

I have some assumptions too...
You will probably see more of the Vikings at SEMA then on your local trail. This product will have strong appeal to Gear Wh@res. (I use that term at the risk of offending real Wh@res) The Viking will perform well in vehicle recovery.

Bottom line for me is that an Overland Journal with 18ct gold leaf lettering on the cover has the same articles inside. Is it better? I guess you could make a case...but for two or three times the price...not so much. When I put out my hard earned cash, bling takes a backseat to other value factors.


.

[cruiseroutfit]

Was just talking about this with the gents over at Teraflex, they joked that they Warn unit is overpriced... they sell their forged unit for $25.99 retail. I guess its all perspective :D

[Life_in_4Lo]

Even the Warn is a bit expensive paying for the Warn name but this is just chi-chi. That's fine, people like pretty things (even though most of it is hidden inside the hitch) and willing to pay for it but there is no advantage to the Viking.

cruiseroutfitter, you are right on.

I absolutely agree with and defend "high end" products. I believe in the superior attributes to them. This argument is not applicable here.

I guess this thread bothers me because the argument of premium products is used for what is clearly a purely chi-chi item. The argument itself tries to lend credibility to the purchase.

No performance or functional upgrade, nor ease of use or durability.

The CNC is even superflous. CNC makes itself worthy because of the precision milling of the material otherwise unobtainable or even more expensive to reproduce. None of that precision is needed or used for this item.

Yeah, there are a lot of chi-chi machined items like valve stems or CNC'd salt and pepper shakers. That is fine and cool, it's fun to have.

Billet and CNC are good marketing catch words but only valuable when they add value if you know what I mean.

For example, I can make the argument that Icon CNC'd uca's are cool and worth it.
For a stick with a couple holes in it? No, not so much.

[bobDog]

Was just talking about this with the gents over at Teraflex, they joked that they Warn unit is overpriced... they sell their forged unit for $25.99 retail. I guess its all perspective :D Hey would you give the link to that...I need one.:sombrero:

[saburai]

Hey would you give the link to that...I need one.:sombrero:

I'll second that!
I'm not much for bling and I think Warn relies a bit heavily on the name...

[cruiseroutfit]

Hey would you give the link to that...I need one.:sombrero:

http://www.teraflexplus.com/

[saburai]

http://www.teraflexplus.com/


I spent some time looking around - even searched. I couldn't find it...

[cruiseroutfit]

I spent some time looking around - even searched. I couldn't find it...

http://www.teraflexplus.com/contact-us ;)

They are a Viking dealer too!

[saburai]

http://www.teraflexplus.com/contact-us ;)


Roger. Will do. Thanks ;)

[teotwaki]

..............SNIP........ This product will have strong appeal to Gear Wh@res. (I use that term at the risk of offending real Wh@res) .........SNIP.....

HA! Laughed SO hard!!

[Antichrist]

That said I don't think either would ever fail, but I guarantee the Viking will look much worse in two years.Exactly what I was thinking. I don't care how good the nickel plating is, if it's abraded, and in this application it will be, it will start to rust. Galvanizing is self healing to a large degree, and I have no doubts a well galvanized shackle mount will look a lot closer to new after a few years than this one.
Also, the shackle rating itself isn't anything exceptional. Alloy shackles aren't hard to come by.

[Scott Brady]

Andre,

I will be sure to report back after a few years with that bracket mounted to the Discovery. In the hitch itself, with the Van Beast shackle attached, it really does not look very "blingy" I will take some pictures.

This was a good discussion.

[dieselcruiserhead]

Sounds good Scott, I look forward to hearing and seeing more about it. Also, for the record I'm not against billet at all (4x4labs histeer arms for Toyotas, hand made out of billet, are the best on the market hands down and are by-far my favorite) but I've also seen it both get compressed as well as break down cosmetically, for example it always feels aweful painting the 4x4labs components because they're so pretty but breakdown so quickly (traditional mild steel not stainless). And also I'm all for supporting the little guy as well on certain things and as budget allows.

thanks,
Andre

[luk4mud]

Interesting discussion. I don't understand most of the metal talk. I do know Thor is a great guy, very honest, sells and makes high quality stuff. I've bought stuff from him and will continue to do so as needs arise and as long as his stuff is competively priced. But I don't need one of these, which leads me to my main point.

The curious thing about the discussion is that most folks participating (me included) probably already own a recovery hitch and don't plan to buy a second one. I have never seen a recovery hitch break, so most folks only make this purchase once.

So we're discussing a new product that most of us don't intend to buy anyway, which means that the comment about more of these appearing at SEMA than in our garages or on our rigs is probably accurate.

But the discussion is still entertaining and has been kept on a largely respectful level. Scott, the big thing that attracted me to this forum is the elevated level of respect that posters tend to show one another. I can appreciate that you may not agree with the those who have concluded that this thing is just too darn expensive, but please don't suggest that those who have reached that conclusion are not "critical thinkers." There's alot of good minds here and folks who work real hard for their money.

[RHINO]

In the hitch itself, with the Van Beast shackle attached, it really does not look very "blingy" I will take some pictures.




not on your rig, put it on mine and it'll stand out like disco stu in a mosh pit.

[latinoguy]

It is funny to me that somehow the Viking is placed in the category of "don't skimp" and "you get what you pay for" --simply because of its higher price -- when it is less superior in every single category.

This positioning statement (you get what you pay for) possibly created by the marketing folks, is what justifies "boutique brands" considerably higher margins over the competition. The higher margins are also passed thru the distributor. you learn that in business school.

The buyer who is loyal to that particular brand, buys for "value" defined by rareness, perceived exclusiveness, and the many other emotional associations with being a consumer for such boutique brands. Look at Louis Vuitton. If you can't spend $300 for a wallet, then why are you in our boutique store for? LOL.

[bobDog]

This positioning statement (you get what you pay for) possibly created by the marketing folks, is what justifies "boutique brands" considerably higher margins over the competition. The higher margins are also passed thru the distributor. you learn that in business school.

The buyer who is loyal to that particular brand, buys for "value" defined by rareness, perceived exclusiveness, and the many other emotional associations with being a consumer for such boutique brands. Look at Louis Vuitton. If you can't spend $300 for a wallet, then why are you in our boutique store for? LOL. My god man, what are you doing up at this time of night? O wait....I am too! Never mind....go on ...you were saying?:coffeedrink:

[saburai]

My god man, what are you doing up at this time of night? O wait....I am too! Never mind....go on ...you were saying?:coffeedrink:

I think you guy's were talking about Louie Vuitton fashion accessory's:elkgrin:

[Wonderland]

You people are funny with that Cry Once BS...

What is that ol' saying about a fool and his money...?

[4Rescue]

I don't really know how to say this guys... But I now have "shackle envy".

That is some FINE workmanship, I'd feel bad treating like I know I would.

Cheers

Dave

[Life_in_4Lo]

Marlin Crawler has a nice one that can be flipped and is only $35
http://marlincrawler.com/sites/all/marlin/files/dshacklereceiver640.jpg

[teotwaki]

Marlin Crawler has a nice one that can be flipped and is only $35
http://marlincrawler.com/sites/all/marlin/files/dshacklereceiver640.jpg

Nice find: price & functionality are there.

http://www.marlincrawler.com/armor/front-bumper/d-shackle-receiver-block

didn't see details on the material and finish

[Life_in_4Lo]

Jim,
looks like a zinc dichromate treatment for anti corrosion
marlincrawler is very, very reputable.

[Momrocks]

Marlin Crawler has a nice one that can be flipped and is only $35
http://marlincrawler.com/sites/all/marlin/files/dshacklereceiver640.jpg

Bejewel that thing in some rhinestones with a hot glue gun and you have a clear winner with our esteemed Expo fashionistas too.
:coffeedrink:

`

[teotwaki]

Jim,
looks like a zinc dichromate treatment for anti corrosion
marlincrawler is very, very reputable.

I honestly was not questioning Marlin Crawler

So is zinc dichromate better or comparable to Viking's nickle finish or Warn's galvanized finish?

let me plagarize a bit here

Strength: MOOT point, stronger than the application requires.
Fit and Finish: may not rattle, gold look is nice for bling, better finish than Warn's forging but not satin looking like the Viking
Functionality: equal to the Viking unit, with the ability to mount vertical or horizontal to limit side loading of the shackle screw pin.
Cost: all the functionality for 30% of the cost of the Viking

[sinuhexavier]

Sometimes I buy things for no other reason than knowing that a company gives back to a sport/activity/community as much as it benefits from it.

[alexrex20]

In the hitch itself, with the Van Beast shackle attached, it really does not look very "blingy" I will take some pictures.

so then there really is NO ADVANTAGE to owning the Viking piece? awesome.

[grouch]

Sometimes I buy things for no other reason than knowing that a company gives back to a sport/activity/community as much as it benefits from it.

Yup, you got that right. I do the same thing all the time.

[teotwaki]

Sometimes I buy things for no other reason than knowing that a company gives back to a sport/activity/community as much as it benefits from it.

for $110 I can support two or three companies and spread the LOVE :smiley_drive:

[Martyn]

My rant.

I find the discussion on price interesting. I think it's been clearly laid out in the discussion what the cost involved in producing small run CNC products are, and the sale price seems to be reasonable.

To state that the product is too expensive and to then list less expensive items purely based on price is distasteful. The discussion had to be lead to a more informational based discussion based on the merits of the product. This should have been the starting point of the discussion.

Pricing seems to be an issue we are quickly willing to quickly point a finger at, and the finger pointing usually is devoid of any analysis of the situation.

For this product, in addition to the raw materials, CNC time, programming time, R&D time, Soildworks time, you need to add in; office and warehouse space, admin, utilities, workers comp, product liability insurance, and a profit margin, then you get a feel for the cost benefit analysis.

Broadly I'd state that criticism on price is leveled by people who don’t created and produced anything. Have no experience in manufacturing, and the costs involved in getting a product to market.

I would challenge you to do some analysis on your own work and see if the end product if fairly priced. What's involved in running an auto repair business, and does it justify the $90.00 per hour shop time. How about you IT guys, does the final cost of your software reflect a reasonable profit, or the Tradesmen amongst us is the final bill given to the consumer fair when you take everything into account?

Finally I'd like you to think about going into your local hardware store to buy a 1/4" bolt. When you pay 6c for it think about the fact I'm buying the same thing for 2c, and become outraged because the hardware store is making in excess of 200% profit on your purchase.

[Life_in_4Lo]

Sometimes I buy things for no other reason than knowing that a company gives back to a sport/activity/community as much as it benefits from it.

Then feel good about buying from Marlin Crawler. He's made huge and lasting contributions to the offroad community for decades.

[ujoint]

Broadly I'd state that criticism on price is leveled by people who don’t create and produced anything. Have no experience in manufacturing, and the costs involved in getting a product to market.


Amen.

[alexrex20]

My rant.

I find the discussion on price interesting. I think it's been clearly laid out in the discussion what the cost involved in producing small run CNC products are, and the sale price seems to be reasonable.

To state that the product is too expensive and to then list less expensive items purely based on price is distasteful. The discussion had to be lead to a more informational based discussion based on the merits of the product. This should have been the starting point of the discussion.

Pricing seems to be an issue we are quickly willing to quickly point a finger at, and the finger pointing usually is devoid of any analysis of the situation.

For this product, in addition to the raw materials, CNC time, programming time, R&D time, Soildworks time, you need to add in; office and warehouse space, admin, utilities, workers comp, product liability insurance, and a profit margin, then you get a feel for the cost benefit analysis.

Broadly I'd state that criticism on price is leveled by people who don’t created and produced anything. Have no experience in manufacturing, and the costs involved in getting a product to market.

I would challenge you to do some analysis on your own work and see if the end product if fairly priced. What's involved in running an auto repair business, and does it justify the $90.00 per hour shop time. How about you IT guys, does the final cost of your software reflect a reasonable profit, or the Tradesmen amongst us is the final bill given to the consumer fair when you take everything into account?

Finally I'd like you to think about going into your local hardware store to buy a 1/4" bolt. When you pay 6c for it think about the fact I'm buying the same thing for 2c, and become outraged because the hardware store is making in excess of 200% profit on your purchase.



so did you place your order for the $110 Viking receiver mount shackle?

the point is not that the product is not worth the money, but that there is a comparable or better product available for a fraction of the cost. let them sell their's for $110, and we will still buy the other product for $40.

you're comparing a 6c bolt to a 2c bolt. if i paid 6c for the EXACT bolt that you paid 2c, then yes, i'd be annoyed - especially if i had to buy 500 of them. but if you're getting a better product for your 6c versus the product i received at 2c, then i am content with my inferior product.

nobody is going to pay 300% extra for a product with no proven advantage over the competition. effectively, it is the same product and does not deserve the price differential.

[Martyn]

you're comparing a 6c bolt to a 2c bolt. if i paid 6c for the EXACT bolt that you paid 2c, then yes, i'd be annoyed - especially if i had to buy 500 of them. but if you're getting a better product for your 6c versus the product i received at 2c, then i am content with my inferior product.

nobody is going to pay 300% extra for a product with no proven advantage over the competition. effectively, it is the same product and does not deserve the price differential.

Be annoyed-- or rather realize that the Hardware store has high overheads and needs to make 200%+ to stay in business.

[alexrex20]

again, you're missing a crucial criterion: there are several alternatives available for ~30% the cost.

with your bolt scenario, there is no other option available to the consumer market; unless they have a business account with said hardware store.

[alexrex20]

regardless, we have all spent absurd amounts of money on items many would consider a waste, simply because there were other options available at fractions the cost. we're all guilty of doing this. i've done it, because i wanted a name brand, or a pretty item, or i just wanted the best.

this is a great product with a great company behind them, and i'm sure they'll be able to sell their intended quantities. it's just not for me.

i keep a smittybilt unit in my recovery bag, but it admittedly is only ever used on other vehicles, which are not so well-equipped.

for my use, i can not justify the extra cost, no matter how much i would love to have that Viking piece in my bag. :)

[teotwaki]

My rant.

I find the discussion on price interesting. I think it's been clearly laid out in the discussion what the cost involved in producing small run CNC products are, and the sale price seems to be reasonable.

To state that the product is too expensive and to then list less expensive items purely based on price is distasteful. The discussion had to be lead to a more informational based discussion based on the merits of the product. This should have been the starting point of the discussion.

Pricing seems to be an issue we are quickly willing to quickly point a finger at, and the finger pointing usually is devoid of any analysis of the situation.

For this product, in addition to the raw materials, CNC time, programming time, R&D time, Soildworks time, you need to add in; office and warehouse space, admin, utilities, workers comp, product liability insurance, and a profit margin, then you get a feel for the cost benefit analysis.

Broadly I'd state that criticism on price is leveled by people who don’t created and produced anything. Have no experience in manufacturing, and the costs involved in getting a product to market.

I would challenge you to do some analysis on your own work and see if the end product if fairly priced. What's involved in running an auto repair business, and does it justify the $90.00 per hour shop time. How about you IT guys, does the final cost of your software reflect a reasonable profit, or the Tradesmen amongst us is the final bill given to the consumer fair when you take everything into account?

Finally I'd like you to think about going into your local hardware store to buy a 1/4" bolt. When you pay 6c for it think about the fact I'm buying the same thing for 2c, and become outraged because the hardware store is making in excess of 200% profit on your purchase.

When I read the above I see a number of things but I'll comment on a smaller number.

I don't think anyone said that the Viking product was "unfairly" priced. It has been tagged as too expensive compared to other items that offer all of the functionality and quality for less money, but not the high-quality finish. If a manufacturer expects to sell something then they should do their homework and price it appropriately for the intended market. I don't think that market includes the average Portal member, many of whom already have a perfectly good hitch shackle adapter.

If this is to be a discussion with analysis then we are compelled to list similar but lower priced items as part of the process. I don't know of another shackle priced any higher! Otherwise it seems we can only post in this thread if we agree that the item is worth $110 to us?

All of us can point to items that we opted to buy that were at the high end of pricing and vice-versa and lay out the reasons why. The Viking shackle hasn't made the cut for most of us.

What we are seeing here is a cross section of the portal and the majority are disinclined to buy the product.

I posted some honest questions about the nickle finish versus the others but I had hoped that someone like you might offer some answers instead of this type of lecture .

[Martyn]

When I read the above I see a number of things but I'll comment on a smaller number.

I don't think anyone said that the Viking product was "unfairly" priced. It has been tagged as too expensive compared to other items that offer all of the functionality and quality for less money, but not the high-quality finish. If a manufacturer expects to sell something then they should do their homework and price it appropriately for the intended market. I don't think that market includes the average Portal member, many of whom already have a perfectly good hitch shackle adapter.

If this is to be a discussion with analysis then we are compelled to list similar but lower priced items as part of the process. I don't know of another shackle priced any higher! Otherwise it seems we can only post in this thread if we agree that the item is worth $110 to us?

All of us can point to items that we opted to buy that were at the high end of pricing and vice-versa and lay out the reasons why. The Viking shackle hasn't made the cut for most of us.

What we are seeing here is a cross section of the portal and the majority are disinclined to buy the product.

I posted some honest questions about the nickle finish versus the others but I had hoped that someone like you might offer some answers instead of this type of lecture .

Jim

I don't have answers for you on the nickel finish.

I'm all for intelligent comparison of products, and in the latter part of the thread that discussion did take place, all be it after some prompting.

In my mind, on this forum, we should discuss the pros and cons of a product. If we personally find it outside of our budget or we believe another product is better value then we won't buy it.

Why the "lecture"? There is very little understanding of the cost of goods, with most of the manufacturing now offshore there are very few people who understand the work that goes into manufacturing the products they use. Thirty years ago that would not have been the case.

We have also grown accustom to inferior cheap products that have devalued the superior products on the market. In many cases we don't see any difference between the two products, and our critical thinking skills haven't taken us beyond the price point.

So my argument is that to compare products based just on price is both distasteful and shows a lack of critical thinking skills. To discuss products based on design, materials, and pros and cons shows thought on the part of the author and the use of critical thinking skills.

[Life_in_4Lo]

Martyn,
Your latest posts makes me think you have not read through this thread as I, and others, have stated answers to all your questions and arguments.


Distasteful lack of critical thinking
That best describes how I feel about the Viking unit.
I'll list some
-material choice -not as strong as others costing 200% less
-CNC machining- absolutely no use or advantage to using this process. It is purely a cosmetic choice. It utilizes none of the advantages of CNC and all the drawbacks (slightly higher manufacturing costs).

One can argue also that the material choice was because they wanted to CNC it. So it's completely a cosmetic choice.

The argument of "high end" products does not apply to this product. It is a misplaced argument. It does disservice to actual high end products with clear advantages or unique design ideas.
Viking's own Safety Thimble is probably a good example to use: CNC used for actual precision machining for a unique product.

Critical thinking is why high end products are "high end". The design and execution justify the price.
Going back to the bolt analogy-- You buy a US made Grade8 bolt because it's truly rated, not some Chinese Grade8 that snaps the head off.
So what if the Chinese bolt is 2x more expensive and marketed in exclusive shops only? Does the high end argument work here?

As I've said many times, if you see this shackle reciever as a chi-chi product and nothing more, than buy it. More power to Viking. But it's not any better by any means, than anything in the $25-$40 range. Theoretical limits, the cheaper units are stronger.
If it's not even "bling" as Scott Brady says, then I see even less point in it.
But it's not unsafe, it's functional and maybe it's one of those things someone buys along with a bunch of other Viking stuff.

Go back to the beginning of this thread and look at the claims of superiority of this unit. A little critical thinking in this thread, I think, saved some people a lot of money.



Jim,
As for the zinc finish, it's common rust/corrosion protection. You see it on bolts, 4x4 control arms (Slee's for example) and other outdoor metal parts. It's a common gold color finish.
I don't know for sure Marlin's is zinc but that is what I assume it is.

Nickel is pretty. I have nickel finish lights in my home. don't know anything about it.

[Martyn]

again, you're missing a crucial criterion: there are several alternatives available for ~30% the cost.

with your bolt scenario, there is no other option available to the consumer market; unless they have a business account with said hardware store.

The bolt scenario is interesting because it illustrates that price by itself is not a good criteria for product selection. The 6c bolt has no competition on the market so we are willing to buy it even though the mark up by the seller is huge.

If however there was a similar bolt for sale for 8c that had three times the tensile strength you could use critical thinking skills to work out it's value to you.

If you didn't use your critical thinking skills you'd buy the 6c bolt based on cost.

[Martyn]

Martyn,
Your latest posts makes me think you have not read through this thread as I, and others, have stated answers to all your questions and arguments.

I read through the thread from start to finish a few times, I'm not prone to jumping into something with half the knowledge or skill that I need.

My comments were not specifically directed at anyone in particular, and yes some people has some interesting and well thought out points of view. Others didn't like the pricing and wanted something less expensive.

My point was and is to go beyond the sticker shock and find out what you’re buying.

Earlier in the thread you directed someone to the Warn shackle bracket in the context of price alone. It wasn't until Scott Brady encourage some well thought out debate that BIGdaddy did an analysis of different products.

From that point on we started to see some meaningful dialogue using critical thinking.

[teotwaki]

I read through the thread from start to finish a few times, I'm not prone to jumping into something with half the knowledge or skill that I need.

My comments were not specifically directed at anyone in particular, and yes some people has some interesting and well thought out points of view. Others didn't like the pricing and wanted something less expensive.

My point was and is to go beyond the sticker shock and find out what you’re buying.

Earlier in the thread you directed someone to the Warn shackle bracket in the context of price alone. It wasn't until Scott Brady encourage some well thought out debate that BIGdaddy did an analysis of different products.

From that point on we started to see some meaningful dialogue using critical thinking.

I'd also like to say that I truly do appreciate the prodding towards critical thinking :bike_rider:

[Life_in_4Lo]

My point was and is to go beyond the sticker shock and find out what you’re buying.

If you do, the Viking falls apart in comparison.




Earlier in the thread you directed someone to the Warn shackle bracket in the context of price alone. It wasn't until Scott Brady encourage some well thought out debate that BIGdaddy did an analysis of different products.

I'm baffled that a shackle bracket requires more than that. Scott posted some incorrect, misleading information on the Viking and then the argument it is "high end". That, I feel, is pretty silly.



From that point on we started to see some meaningful dialogue using critical thinking.

What do you feel is the outcome? I guess not good because of your rant post yesterday.

[Martyn]

If you do, the Viking falls apart in comparison.



I'm baffled that a shackle bracket requires more than that. Scott posted some incorrect, misleading information on the Viking and then the argument it is "high end". That, I feel, is pretty silly.



What do you feel is the outcome? I guess not good because of your rant post yesterday.

The shackle post could have contained, not only the price, but a comparison of the two items, the pros and cons, and your thoughts on why the pricing would be so varied. To me it's that type of information that people expect from the Portal, good solid well thought out facts.

I'm not so concerned about the "outcome" of the thread more the process. If people do their analysis of a product and the overall impression is positive or negative so be it.

If the discussion is, this product is $$$$$ and this product is $, with no explanation or though behind it, all we have is peoples preferences without any underlying reasoning.

The comment Scott made was: "So, make a valid argument to the contrary. We are big kids, and nothing wrong with a healthy discussion.The world is full of expensive items." It was only after this that healthy discussion began. It could have begun earlier with no prompting.

[Scott Brady]

Scott posted some incorrect, misleading information on the Viking and then the argument it is "high end". That, I feel, is pretty silly. . .

What was incorrect or misleading, and what would be my motivation to do so? There were some good points made in this thread, and you can certainly disagree we with me, but why attack me to make your point?

It is just a unique, expensive, nice looking CNC part for the automotive market. Certainly you have seen a few of those in your life. . .

[AFSOC]

If the discussion is, this product is $$$$$ and this product is $, with no explanation or though behind it, all we have is peoples preferences without any underlying reasoning.

The comment Scott made was: "So, make a valid argument to the contrary. We are big kids, and nothing wrong with a healthy discussion.The world is full of expensive items." It was only after this that healthy discussion began. It could have begun earlier with no prompting.

Martyn, I always admire your thoughtful debate on many issues but must disagree with you in this instance.

This Viking product has not received unfair treatment. Portal members have given it a fair shake and many (dare I say most) feel that it doesn’t offer enough advantage to be worth spending the 200% price over its competition. The cost is the trigger point. Portal members are not accusing Viking of unjustly charging customers this high price, they are saying the excessive manufacturing costs results in a price point that they can not justify spending for a product that doesn’t offer an appreciable performance advantage.

As I reread these posts, I find it curious that you laud Scott for his post to promote healthy discussion in post 20. In Post 15 Scott states “It is only $50 more than a typical shackle bracket, and IMO, more than twice as good.” which can’t be substantiated. He later (post 26) states “If you would not buy it, or cannot afford it, or don't care to justify the expense, why care so much? Why spend the energy to disparage the product on the forum? In reality, the motivation is obvious. . .” without offering explanation to the accusation of an obvious motivation. If this thread lacks critical thinking or a narrow point of view I think Scott bears as much of the responsibility for that I or the rest of the posters do.

That’s my two cents which may be over valued 200%

Dale

[Scott Brady]

In Post 15 Scott states “It is only $50 more than a typical shackle bracket, and IMO, more than twice as good.” which can’t be substantiated.
Dale

I am sure you read the entire thread, however you did not include my retraction of that statement in post #52.

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=461338&postcount=52

There have been some very good points made in this thread, and I changed my position on several of my original assertions. I was clearly incorrect in my initial assumptions.

Edit: That was my point about critical discussion. I always make an effort to challenge the posters who only disparage a product based on cost. In this case several qualified individuals commented on specific attributes, which I appreciate. From that critical discussion, I adjusted my position to be that the value of the product was its uniqueness and appearance. So that is evidence that I did not have a narrow point of view - my point of view was changed by others. Isn't that what learning and this forum is all about?

[Fergie]

Okay, so we know the that the Viking unit is made of 1018 steel. This is your normal, everyday run of the mill(pun?) steel. What is the Warn(or other units) made out of? Is it a type of steel that was selected for it's forgeability? If not, they should re-evaluate.

Reading the description, the Viking unit is made from a billet of 1018 steel, meaning square stock. I don't see this as misleading if you know the etymology of the term.

The Warn unit offers a 1 year warranty from orginal date of purchase; what does the Viking offer?(couldnt find the info on their site)

As for technique, forged items are less expensive due to the mass amount units made; this is the justification for the method and costs involved. CNC is great for small batch, precise runs. This inherently drives the price up.

And now for my own little pseudo-parable:


When I bought my Engel, I needed a slide. I did not want to pay the $270 for the ARB one, and thought I could make one for less...thought being the key word.

All said and done, I spent about $75 on good material(mostly the cost of bearings for the roller mechanism), and put rougly 8 hours in to it. At $30 an hour(cheap compared to normal shop time) that put labor at $240. Without figuring in the cost of consumables, or even OH&P, I spent upwards of $315 for a $270 product that doesnt have as high a quality of fit and finish.

My slide won't fail, and still functions the same as the ARB one, but as I said, the ARB is better, and I would have paid $315 for it, had I known better.



For those of us that won't be buying the Viking unit, I doubt they care; we're not on their radar.

And, if you take the time to browse through the site, you'll find a shackle receiver just like the Warn and Terflex units, for a very similar price.

You are paying for something semi-unique and different, and if you do that, you either a) want people to know that you are buying something unique and different or b) you don't care what other's think and you do what pleases you.

EDIT: How many of you have actually tried this product? Aside from the technical and quantitative aspects that can be compared between two similar units, the rest of your comments are qualitative postulations.

[AFSOC]

I am sure you read the entire thread, however you did not include my retraction of that statement in post #52.

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=461338&postcount=52

There have been some very good points made in this thread, and I changed my position on several of my original assertions. I was clearly incorrect in my initial assumptions.

Edit: That was my point about critical discussion. I always make an effort to challenge the posters who only disparage a product based on cost. In this case several qualified individuals commented on specific attributes, which I appreciate. From that critical discussion, I adjusted my position to be that the value of the product was its uniqueness and appearance. So that is evidence that I did not have a narrow point of view - my point of view was changed by others. Isn't that what learning and this forum is all about?


Must be fair and note your retraction to your post 15 statements made in post 52. Sorry, fair is fair.

I do think that it is irresponsible to make unfounded claims and unsupported accusations of posters having "obvious motivations". I appreciate that you admittedly changed your view due to the point of view exchanges within the thread. Learning is the best of what internet forums are all about. Civility and well thought postings is what ExPo is all about.

`

[wikid]

I have watched this thread from day one and read every post. It's somewhat intimidating to think about posting an opinion, when this type of result happens.
I have enjoyed how it evolved, but think it's getting to the "beating a dead horse stage"
With hesitation, I hit the "submit reply" button
Don

[AFSOC]

I have enjoyed how it evolved, but think it's getting to the "beating a dead horse stage"

I whole heartedly agree Don and I appologize for my part in beating that poor dead horse.

Dale