School me on home-defense (gun related).

[Cackalak Han]

I have been hunting for a long time (mostly duck). I have a shot gun and a .357 mag revolver (buying this week) in the home. No kids, so we leave it unlocked and unloaded (we are expecting our first in a few months, though). I was thinking, in a break-in situation, I'd imagine you'd need to get to your firearm very quick, right? If so, how do you get your sidearm/firearm ready and adhere to the child safety (and general safety) rules of locking up your firearms and leaving it unloaded? I'm sure the intruder won't wait until you have a chance to open up your safe, unlock the trigger lock, load your ammo and take aim. So what do you do?

We live in a safe neighborhood, but with the child on the way, it just got me thinking.

Thanks for any input.

BTW, in self-defense situation, I'd rather have my 12 ga over the .357.

[Jnich77]

Mine has always been in my night stand... if you teach kids from a young age to respect guns..and to never go in your bed room you will be in a much better situation. when I was growing up we had a house full of firearms..I never once thought of playing with them.

[TACODOC]

With any weapon, safety becomes difficult in the sense that there is no way to store it, loaded and ready, without trigger lock. These take time to fool with, especially when awakened to discover that the perimeter has been breached... no bueno.

The solution is this: http://www.gunvault.com/
Any weapon can be safely stored, loaded and ready, at/near/or under the bed using one of these. I sleep good at night.

Our home invasion plan is simple: the 1st floor and the garage are left to local 911/LEO/alarm company response i.e. we will NOT go downstairs and confront them... it's just not worth it so let them have it and go.

The stairwell leading upstairs is the "kill zone" - if they break in and head upstairs they are probably there for more than the TV and beer... my wife and children are upstairs so we have agreed that this is our "line in the sand". There is no other way to get upstairs (short of grenades) so this is a very defensible position, one that my wife can EASILY dominate alone.

Geometry of fires is another little discussed safety issue. Know where you can shoot safely in your house BEFORE you put rounds through a wall into the kids room... know where it's safe to engage and where it is not. This is why you game everything and have a PLAN before anything ever happens, and then PRAY the day never comes.

Interior defense vice "meeting them at the door", and remember the gun is your LAST resort. Never confront unless confronted, and if you have to fight, fight dirty.

I also recommend a good dog as an added layer of security, they hear everything at night ;)

Chance favors the prepared.

[78Bronco]

I'm a canadian so take this with a liberal perspective.

I would look at getting an early warning system with four legs and some fur. Perimeter motion activated lighting! Then you'll have time to unlock the safe and load the gun.:ylsmoke:

If you are alergic to dogs they come in non allergy versions these days. Dogs come programmed to protect their flock and territory without any training.

[DarinM]

I don't have any kids so I keep my .357 loaded and in the top drawer of my dresser upstairs where I sleep. If I were to have any kids (like my nephews) visiting, it would be unloaded and stuck up in the top of my closet for the duration.
I have a 12 gauge with the magazine loaded in my closet. It's currently in a hard case with a couple of latches on it.
I can get the .357 out quicker, so I guess I would grab it first, but the 12 is really just a couple steps further.

My little brother has a 4 year old son. He has a 9mm in a gun safe. I think he has this one (http://www.gunsafes.com/GunVault-Mini-Standard-GV1000C-STD.html). I believe he stores it with a loaded clip, but nothing chambered. He and his wife both know the finger combination, but my nephew, of course, doesn't. I believe it is a very safe way of keeping a gun close at hand, but still safe for children.

[TACODOC]

Never store pistol/rifle magazines loaded for long periods of time. It degrades the springs and they will FAIL you when you need them.

Revolvers are best for long term loaded storage.

.02

[off.track]

I'm a canadian so take this with a liberal perspective.

I would look at getting an early warning system with four legs and some fur. Perimeter motion activated lighting! Then you'll have time to unlock the safe and load the gun.:ylsmoke:

If you are alergic to dogs they come in non allergy versions these days. Dogs come programmed to protect their flock and territory without any training.

did you say canadian?

http://jschumacher.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/03/10/geese_police3.jpg

:sombrero:


oh and as to the original topic, take a chill pill and check your pants in the morning.. paranoia in the USA is something wild right now. wow.

[bugnout]

With a load of buckshot, the shotgun has much better stopping power than the 357. But... you will be showing your hand. The major downside is its size.

Advantage of a handgun is being able to conceal it, having it on your person when you answer the door.

A biometric handgun safe will allow you to keep it loaded and ready, yet safe from little hands.

[Maximus Ram]

education education education

The best gun safety is education.
I don't care if a person takes every precation they can. There are stories of someone be shot with a firearm that was locked up and safe.
Teach your children that firearms are not toys. Don't make them a taboo thing. This only increases the curiousity and leads to problems as kids will be kids.


education education education

[Jnich77]

education education education

The best gun safety is education.
I don't care if a person takes every precation they can. There are stories of someone be shot with a firearm that was locked up and safe.
Teach your children that firearms are not toys. Don't make them a taboo thing. This only increases the curiousity and leads to problems as kids will be kids.


education education education
:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::i agree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

[BIGdaddy]

With any weapon, safety becomes difficult in the sense that there is no way to store it, loaded and ready, without trigger lock. These take time to fool with, especially when awakened to discover that the perimeter has been breached... no bueno.

The solution is this: http://www.gunvault.com/
Any weapon can be safely stored, loaded and ready, at/near/or under the bed using one of these. I sleep good at night.




Dave, this is what I have, too. I have a brand called DAC, though. it has worked well for about 2 years, and came highly recommended.


To the original poster: In the safe, is my .380acp Bersa Thunder which is diminutive, but a gun I'm VERY good with it out to about 20 yards. Well within close encounter range.

In the safe also, is the key to my shotgun's action lock. I have figured out that the bersa is the "in a moments notice, firing rounds down the hall gun", and if there's time, I grab the key for the shotgun with the bersa in my belt as a backup.

This is all locked away from my three inquistive toddler daughters. They have all been trained to not touch my guns without me and to find someone if they find a gun, but I'm not leaving it up to them to be safe.

[BIGdaddy]

Oh, and ours is a one story, but the bedrooms are down the hall. Clear shot picture with no-one in the line of fire to send rounds into our living room/kitchen.

Our plan in the event of a break-in has to include grabbing all kids and bringing them to our bedroom, which requires me to have one hand free, which is leading me towards getting a longarm like a cali-legal AR15 due to how light they are. I have a pistol gripped full stock on my shottie (like a turkey gun) but its a beast to one hand.

One other thing is that though handguns are easy to manipulate in enclosed spaces, a longgun, with practice, can be very effective. Remember that no war has ever been won with pistols. rifles and shotguns rule the day. Even a lever action cowboy gun would be an asset with its long sight picture and reliable/quick-feeding operation. You are going to be at your worst, being woken up in the middle of the night, so anything you can do with gun choice to make it easier is a benifit. For me this is a hand gun I'm great with, and a longgun with large cartridges, that are easy to grip with scared, tired hands.

[grouch]

.357's are great. You can put 38's, 38+p's in them or 9mm with half moon clips and have a ton of shot flexibility to tame the recoil or shoot full power if you want. Just be mindful of the ammo kept in the cylinder, make sure it is a high fragmentation round and not a ball type round due to over penetration. You don't want to send a misplaced round toward the young ones.

Something like this works well.

http://www.dakotaammo.net/products/glaser/glaser.htm

BTW, 9mm in a .357 make a great practice round. You can shoot it all day without any hand fatigue and the rounds are good and cheap!

[BIGdaddy]

.357's are great. You can put 38's, 38+p's in them or 9mm with half moon clips and have a ton of shot flexibility to tame the recoil or shoot full power if you want. Just be mindful of the ammo kept in the cylinder, make sure it is a high fragmentation round and not a ball type round due to over penetration. You don't want to send a misplaced round toward the young ones.

Something like this works well.

http://www.dakotaammo.net/products/glaser/glaser.htm

BTW, 9mm in a .357 make a great practice round. You can shoot it all day without any hand fatigue and the rounds are good and cheap!

Ooooh...glasers...hmmm...gonna hold my tongue here.

A great resource is www.theboxotruth.com

its a fun website, full of real world data...

[dieselcruiserhead]

It's amazing to me that someone would result to a loaded gun for home protection. What are you going to do, kill someone? (and go to jail unless they shoot at you first?) I think it could be a useful tool too but we don't lock our doors either other than occasionally at night and the last thing I ever think about is my gun, and keeping it loaded...

My $.02

[BIGdaddy]

It's amazing to me that someone would result to a loaded gun for home protection. What are you going to do, kill someone? (and go to jail unless they shoot at you first?) I think it could be a useful tool too but we don't lock our doors either other than occasionally at night and the last thing I ever think about is my gun, and keeping it loaded...

My $.02

we have castle laws here in california. If someone's in my house who doesn't live there, is posing a threat, and I shoot them, I win. thats it. Its very hard to get someone in jail in their own house here in Cali.

And yes, I would absolutely riddle someone full of holes until I am dead or they are, if they posed a threat to my 3 little girls or the woman who loves my Jeep.

regards,
Brian

[Cackalak Han]

Thanks everyone for your comments. I will look into that GunVault (seems like a great product). I will, of course, teach the kid how to respect firearms. (Any tips on that would also be appreciated. :D)


It's amazing to me that someone would result to a loaded gun for home protection. What are you going to do, kill someone? (and go to jail unless they shoot at you first?) I think it could be a useful tool too but we don't lock our doors either other than occasionally at night and the last thing I ever think about is my gun, and keeping it loaded...

My $.02

I respect your views. I understand firearms aren't for everyone. And I know this has been beaten to death multiple times. I do feel that, while I would probably never be in a life-and-death situation, I would like to be prepared for it. I have not killed, nor plan to kill. However, if some lunatic were to break in and threaten my family, I would not hesitate to pull the trigger. The thought of my child getting kidnapped, my wife getting (don't even want to finish the thought), etc. is much more horrifying to me. I have the right to carry a gun and you have the right to voice your opinion. Let's just leave it at that and avoid the whole 2nd Amendment issue. Thanks. :)

[computeruser]

Peripheral issue: home security is set up in layers. A simple explanation can be found in "Jim Grover's" (Kelly McCann) book Street Smarts, Firearms, and Personal Security. In essence, you need to make sure that it takes some effort for someone to get to (or through) your door without their presence being known. Do you have exterior lights? A fence? Dark corners where someone can hide (to attack or to take their time breaking in)? Do you have solid doors/windows with good locks? A dog? Etc.

On-point issue: Firearms don't do you a goddamn bit of good if you can't get to them, ASAP. They are not imbued with talismanic powers, such that their mere presence in the house will provide a benefit. And they don't do any good when you aren't home; your layered security does help, though.

Having known or known of a fair number of people who have been victims of home invasions and/or break-ins (many of which are domestic violence/stalking-related), the common threads that I see in the break-ins that occurred when people were home are these:
1. Inadequately secured doors/windows.
2. No early warning system - alarms, dogs, etc.
3. Doors that don't resist kick-in.
4. Opening the door when someone knocks, even though you weren't expecting anyone.

These are all preventable, or at least subject to easy risk mitigation. So do it.

The idea that an unloaded pistol or shotgun, tucked away in a closet, will be able to be readied quickly and under stress is unrealistic. The idea that it can be loaded as you struggle with someone who is trying to kick down your bedroom door, or while you try to round up your kids...right. I think it is prudent to secure those firearms you are not using, but you should leave your "working guns" ready to work.

I keep two deadly weapons ready for service - A pistol, which I wear during waking hours and store bedside at night (still holstered in my trousers, on the floor beside the bed), and a shotgun (12ga riot with 00) in the safe room closet. I live in an area where houses are close by, and have shot enough building materials with these weapons to feel comfortable that overpenetration is not an undue risk, should a shot go amiss. If I lived in a more rural area, I would gladly substitute a compact rifle for the shotgun (AR, AK, Mini14, shorter M1A or FAL).


For those concerned about overpenetration - I also know a fellow who had a home invasion earlier this year where he was able promptly hit the first armed invader, center of mass, with (as I recall) seven rounds of .357Sig, before he had made but a few steps through the front door. Invader was DRT and his compatriots ran off. However, a number of these hot, penetration-prone rounds failed to make it through the invader's puffy jacket and clothing, and fell onto the ground as the deceased was loaded up on a stretcher and carried off. Would a Glaser SafetySlug have stopped this guy?



It's amazing to me that someone would result to a loaded gun for home protection. What are you going to do, kill someone? (and go to jail unless they shoot at you first?) I think it could be a useful tool too but we don't lock our doors either other than occasionally at night and the last thing I ever think about is my gun, and keeping it loaded...

My $.02

I would hardly consider it a foregone conclusion that one would go to jail for shooting a home invader, even without a castle law protections in place.

[BIGdaddy]

Thanks everyone for your comments. I will look into that GunVault (seems like a great product). I will, of course, teach the kid how to respect firearms. (Any tips on that would also be appreciated. :D)



I respect your views. I understand firearms aren't for everyone. And I know this has been beaten to death multiple times. I do feel that, while I would probably never be in a life-and-death situation, I would like to be prepared for it. I have not killed, nor plan to kill. However, if some lunatic were to break in and threaten my family, I would not hesitate to pull the trigger. The thought of my child getting kidnapped, my wife getting (don't even want to finish the thought), etc. is much more horrifying to me. I have the right to carry a gun and you have the right to voice your opinion. Let's just leave it at that and avoid the whole 2nd Amendment issue. Thanks. :)


agreed. I erased my comments..haha!

[TACODOC]

What are you going to do, kill someone?

That's EXACTLY what I would do if someone broke into MY house with an intent to do my family harm. No doubts, no hesitation. And I'd sleep like a baby afterward.

You see home invasion/murders on the news all the time. I'd lock my door at night at the very least if I were you.

.02

[Fergie]

It's amazing to me that someone would result to a loaded gun for home protection. What are you going to do, kill someone? (and go to jail unless they shoot at you first?) I think it could be a useful tool too but we don't lock our doors either other than occasionally at night and the last thing I ever think about is my gun, and keeping it loaded...

My $.02

No, I am not going to "kill someone" as you have so, dare I say, ignorantly put it.

I will, however, stop, with finality, any immediate threat to my life, or the life of my family.

What kind of .357 are you buying? Full frame or concealed carry? If it is a smaller frame .357, consider a .38 +P or normal .38 with a high quality self-defense load. Even a light .357 load will be a pain to handle with the smaller frame revolvers, especially the ones with smaller grips. The .38 will do the job just fine.

***NO HAND LOADED ROUND FOR SELF DEFENSE...FACTORY ONLY***

Heed the advice others have given here as far as education, defense, and planning goes.

[cruiseroutfit]

It's amazing to me that someone would result to a loaded gun for home protection. What are you going to do, kill someone? (and go to jail unless they shoot at you first?) I think it could be a useful tool too but we don't lock our doors either other than occasionally at night and the last thing I ever think about is my gun, and keeping it loaded...

My $.02

Darn soap dodgers :D Not only are you closed minded Dre' your ignorant to Utah's right to protect home and family too. In Utah, a loaded weapon can be concealed anywhere in home or car without any sort of permit. That's right Utah does NOT require a CCP for weapons stored inside of a vehicle as they consider it an extension of your home and you have the right to protect home and family.

Now can you shoot a burgler as he is breaking out your car stereo, of course not. But can you shoot a rapist that is snatching a 14 year old daughter out of her bedroom, absolutely! You have have a reasonable feeling that the life of yourself or family is in eminent danger. Simple. If your life is threatened by any means and you shoot and kill. You will walk. You don't have to be shot at, you don't have to be raped or stabbed, you don't have to watch your wife duct taped and dragged out the door (all things that have happened in even quite Utah) You have to feel the lives in your responsibility are in danger. They happen in Utah, they happen all over the US. Your good buddy Dan George held a man at gunpoint in his house while the police were en route.

I'd rather be prepared and fingers crossed never have to use it, then not be prepared and suffer the consequences. Simple as that. No different than a winch on my rig or a spare belt under my seat.

EDIT: To give you a case to ponder Andre. Last May in WVC and mother woke to find a neighbor kid prowling in their house. Her husband was at work and their two kids were asleep. Long story short the children sat next to their mothers dead body until the father came home from work that morning to find his lifeless wife brutally beaten. The 17 year old neighbor killed her to prevent being caught burglarizing their home. He awaits trial. A very, very sad case. Had the wife been armed would this have happened? We can all play what-ifs but given the fact she awoke to him in the house, its fair to say that the tides could have turned? Who knows? It sucks to even have to be in a position to second guess an instance like this. But I can assure you that Candace (especially when home alone) is comfortable with the fact she has the means and training to protect herself in a similar circumstance. LINK (http://www.abc4.com/mostpopular/story/UPDATE-18-year-old-neighbor-faces-murder-charges/rxWIPmU1ZEeJB9jwQpwdTg.cspx)

I'll save you all from my weapon story but Dre you can read about it on the WC forum in which a crack head charged into my yard and attempted to enter my house. Thank heavens things ended with him (and the neighbor) going to jail and me feeling relieved that things didn't escalate on either side of the situation.

[dieselcruiserhead]

Sorry guys not to stir the pot here. I'm just saying yes I would feel guilty if I killed someone if they were stealing a stereo or toaster or microwave or shoot, even my car. These are just simple material items. Again I have owned guns and I like them and I very much support the 2nd Amendment. I more than recognize and respect the right for a concealed weapons permit as well.

But the last thing that crosses my mind is to have that weapon loaded in the house in case of a burglar. I look at the odds of the scenario you guys are describing (where the burglar actually is an intimate thread) as worse than getting stuck by lightning, which is probably not too far off. Even if there were a burglar, while it would "feel cool" to chase that guy off, what if he had a gun and I were really just putting myself in danger, in addition to the dangers of having a loaded weapon in the house. I do think think this is a practical, safe, and more than reasonable approach.

[dieselcruiserhead]

I realized I had deleted or not included the phrase where I mentioned that I have owned guns -- sorry to stir the pot and to come across as outrageously anti-gun. Again, please see my above post. Thanks, Andre

[the1jzahn]

The solution is this: http://www.gunvault.com/
Any weapon can be safely stored, loaded and ready, at/near/or under the bed using one of these. I sleep good at night.


Chance favors the prepared.

+1
I have this one and love it. You can program it to any code you like and has a back up key if the battery dies. Can't go wrong with it. The taller one with the shelf has plenty of room for mags, two guns, and small valuables.

[cruisertoy]

. Your good buddy Dan George held a man at gunpoint in his house while the police were en route.



With Dan's attitude at times I'm surprised he didn't take the guy out and put him in a hole in the west desert.

My game plan is to keep the outside of my house as crappy looking as possible while my neighbors all have nice homes. Who's going to break into the guy's house that doesn't have two pennies to rub together.:victory:

[cruiseroutfit]

Sorry guys not to stir the pot here. I'm just saying yes I would feel guilty if I killed someone if they were stealing a stereo or toaster or microwave or shoot, even my car. These are just simple material items. Again I have owned guns and I like them and I very much support the 2nd Amendment. I more than recognize and respect the right for a concealed weapons permit as well.

Andre read my post and my added edit, brings things close to home for me. I think its fair to say none of us would condone nor participate in shooting over a stereo or TV. But whats to say that situation doesn't escalate when you encounter the would be thief (again read my edit above). Whats to say the intruder doesn't have the sole mission of harming you or your wife? It is thankfully a very remote scenario, but so is needing my ReadyWelder. I hate to draw that kind of parallel amongst such a serious issue but a protection weapon in the home is a tool, not a tool every one feels like they need or should have, but a tool that in comfortable and responsible hand could solve a serious issue and doesn't cause any harm in the meantime.


But the last thing that crosses my mind is to have that weapon loaded in the house in case of a burglar. I look at the odds of the scenario you guys are describing (where the burglar actually is an intimate thread) as worse than getting stuck by lightning, which is probably not too far off.

Guess again. How about you find out how many Utahns have been killed by lightening and I'll show you 10 fold more that have been killed in their own homes or better yet have not been killed because they protected themselves. See my edit story above, and I can find you plenty more from here in Utah. Just last month there was an apartment intrusion in which an intruder was killed by one of the apartment owners, oddly enough with the intruders own knife, another tenant had been stabbed already. Rare, sure, and were there circumstances placing that apartment in more danger than the next, of course, does it rule it out from happening and it definitely doesn't rule me out from being prepared. I've got earthquake insurance too ;)

I think it surmises to say that there are many different opinions out there on the subject. I'm not hear to tell anyone how to protect themselves, in fact is is a very personal issue. I respect that and I respect a guy with a cell phone next to his bed as much a someone with home defense 12 gauge.

Andre, your neighbors will have this sign up soon.

http://www.rossputin.com/blog/media/GunBan.jpg

[Jnich77]

It's amazing to me that someone would result to a loaded gun for home protection. What are you going to do, kill someone? (and go to jail unless they shoot at you first?)



Obviously you value the life of a criminal over that of yourself and your family.

[Scenic WonderRunner]

I've Finally Learned!

I'm not going to get sucked into another one of these threads!:elkgrin:

I'll just let them guess what will happen!

.....:costumed-smiley-007

I need a Sign!

At my front door!

Something like....Draw these straws, to see how long you might live, if you don't Leave Now!

....http://panamintvalley.com/forum/images/smilies/highjack.gif



.

[Jonathan Hanson]

Although it's somewhat of a peripheral issue to the original post, I feel I need to dispel the myth that a magazine left constantly loaded is subject to spring fatigue and subsequent failure-to-feed malfunctions. It's been proven metallurgically that no such fatigue occurs, at least in any spring that's not some Afghan-village-gunsmith pot metal. It's perfectly safe to leave magazines loaded.

If anything, constantly emptying and reloading magazines is more likely to cause spring fatigue, but even that is highly unlikely in a decent-quality magazine, as long as the compressed spring does not exceed its yield point, where plastic deformation occurs and atomic bonds start breaking.

I had an actual page of metallurgist argot somewhere showing this with molecular-level explanations, but I can't find it at the moment.

Back to our original program.

[dieselcruiserhead]

Nice one Jnich77... :coffee:

I'm now wondering how many people have had their house burglarized? I grew up in New Rochelle New York just 3 blocks from the police station and recall I we were burglarized three times. The third time I came home from school and found the burglar (who fled) and the cops actually found him, hiding in a car a few blocks away in only about 20 minutes. I fingered the guy and they put him away (and it turned out to be the brother in law of my neighbor across the street so probably even some sort of inside job). This, I would say, is probably representative of probably 90 or 95% of situations.

Just a couple years ago my dad also had his home cleaned out as well (in upstate New York, super rural, super safe, seldom locked as well). My dad also owns guns too and I have to say the only time he actually ever carried it was mostly in rural rural Arizona where he was worried about crooked cops in the late 70s/early 80s, a tiny little 9mm.

Now that I think about it when I was a kid in Brazil we had our house broken in as well, except this time it was at night and we were all asleep. This time they had a gun, my mom (who is one tough-*** chick) managed to somehow get the burglar's arm between a door and the jamb with the gun and his hand only sticking through and he fired 2 or 3 shots and I was in the room (and everyone was OK) and they fled as well.

And finally as well in a burglary gone wrong in the Amazon just a couple years ago I lost one of my favorite teachers of all time...

I wanted to point out, again, the last thing that crosses my mind personally would be to keep a loaded weapon first again because of the consequences, as mentioned. First would be... Lights, locking the door, maybe a dog. To me, a gun (and a loaded gun) is the absolutely last resort.

[Jnich77]

Andre read my post and my added edit, brings things close to home for me. I think its fair to say none of us would condone nor participate in shooting over a stereo or TV.

I don't care what there intentions are, breaking into my house is more than enough reason for make sure they leave in a body bag.

[Jnich77]

I wanted to point out, again, the last thing that crosses my mind personally would be to keep a loaded weapon first again because of the consequences, as mentioned. First would be... Lights, locking the door, maybe a dog. To me, a gun (and a loaded gun) is the absolutely last resort.

I agree.. but I am more than willing to bypass everything else and jump to the last resort. after being in combat I know first hand that two things will get you killed in a heart beat : Hesitation and being unprepared. I refuse to fall victim to either.

as for my earlier comment, wasn't trying to be rude.. just making an observation.

[Hltoppr]

Alright gents, after some mod review, this thread is back up. Let's try to keep the thread on track with substance....not tough guy chest beating.

-H-

[Every Miles A Memory]

education education education

The best gun safety is education.
I don't care if a person takes every precation they can. There are stories of someone be shot with a firearm that was locked up and safe.
Teach your children that firearms are not toys. Don't make them a taboo thing. This only increases the curiousity and leads to problems as kids will be kids.


education education education

My thoughts exactly!! I taught our daughter from a very young age how to use and clean/take apart/and shoot every gun we owned.

This taught her that they were tools, NOT toys. She never was interested in playing with them, and knew they were tools for when we went to the range.

Education, Education, Education. Until your new arrival is old enough to learn, keep it in a combo safe under the bed like the others have mentioned

[SunTzuNephew]

Never store pistol/rifle magazines loaded for long periods of time. It degrades the springs and they will FAIL you when you need them.

Revolvers are best for long term loaded storage.

.02

I have left magazines (pistol and rifle) loaded for years and years without problems. In fact I found (in 2005) some AR-15 mags that I had loaded in 1997 or 1998 and misplaced....when I discovered them I took them to the range and every round fired (it was PMC 55 gr, btw).

Properly designed magazines (which means most anything modern) will not be damaged by leaving them loaded. In fact it is the cycling that causes springs to deteriorate, not compression.

[BIGdaddy]

Oh, home-defense thread...how I've missed you!!!

thanks, mods. Its, at heart, a good discussion. Glad you agree.

-B

[SunTzuNephew]

With a load of buckshot, the shotgun has much better stopping power than the 357. But... you will be showing your hand. The major downside is its size.

Advantage of a handgun is being able to conceal it, having it on your person when you answer the door.

A biometric handgun safe will allow you to keep it loaded and ready, yet safe from little hands.

You still have to aim shotguns. At typical in-house ranges the pattern doesn't hardly open up at all (2-3 inches at 10', at best. Their length makes them unwieldy in close quarters (like a house). In fact, an aggressor can grab the barrel out of your hands as it precedes you out a doorway...

For some real-world experimentation check out http://www.theboxotruth.com/index.htm

[SunTzuNephew]

It's amazing to me that someone would result to a loaded gun for home protection. What are you going to do, kill someone? (and go to jail unless they shoot at you first?) I think it could be a useful tool too but we don't lock our doors either other than occasionally at night and the last thing I ever think about is my gun, and keeping it loaded...

My $.02

If they're in my home after dark without my invite, you're right...they're an intruder, and my reasonable expectation is that they are there to do my family or me bodily harm. They chose the field, I choose the weapons. It's not my fault if they choose poorly.

And in many states (including Utah, I believe) you don't have to be shot at first in your own home. In my state I certainly don't have to be.

[TACODOC]

Although it's somewhat of a peripheral issue to the original post, I feel I need to dispel the myth that a magazine left constantly loaded is subject to spring fatigue and subsequent failure-to-feed malfunctions. It's been proven metallurgically that no such fatigue occurs, at least in any spring that's not some Afghan-village-gunsmith pot metal. It's perfectly safe to leave magazines loaded.

If anything, constantly emptying and reloading magazines is more likely to cause spring fatigue, but even that is highly unlikely in a decent-quality magazine, as long as the compressed spring does not exceed its yield point, where plastic deformation occurs and atomic bonds start breaking.

I had an actual page of metallurgist argot somewhere showing this with molecular-level explanations, but I can't find it at the moment.

Back to our original program.

My comment was based on combat experience in Iraq where M9 pistol (Beretta 92F) mags would invariably become tired resulting in the rounds just falling out onto the ground when the mag was removed for cleaning... didn't instill much confidence in this particular sidearm for me. Our mags were more than a bit worn out by the time we reached Baghdad ;)

I've had many an old timer tell me the same thing about magazine springs in general so for long term storage mine are kept empty.

YMMV :)

[SunTzuNephew]

Sorry guys not to stir the pot here. I'm just saying yes I would feel guilty if I killed someone if they were stealing a stereo or toaster or microwave or shoot, even my car. These are just simple material items. Again I have owned guns and I like them and I very much support the 2nd Amendment. I more than recognize and respect the right for a concealed weapons permit as well.

But the last thing that crosses my mind is to have that weapon loaded in the house in case of a burglar. I look at the odds of the scenario you guys are describing (where the burglar actually is an intimate thread) as worse than getting stuck by lightning, which is probably not too far off. Even if there were a burglar, while it would "feel cool" to chase that guy off, what if he had a gun and I were really just putting myself in danger, in addition to the dangers of having a loaded weapon in the house. I do think think this is a practical, safe, and more than reasonable approach.


IIRC, something like 50 people are struck by lightning each year (http://www.lightningsafety.noaa.gov/medical.htm). According to the justice department the number of victims of violent crime is something around 1.3 million. So the numbers favor the armed law-abiding citizen.

[SunTzuNephew]

With Dan's attitude at times I'm surprised he didn't take the guy out and put him in a hole in the west desert.

Well, we do have 10+ pages of posts about shovels....




My game plan is to keep the outside of my house as crappy looking as possible while my neighbors all have nice homes. Who's going to break into the guy's house that doesn't have two pennies to rub together.:victory:

My neighbor once criticized my firearms...I offered to put up a sign on my lawn directing criminals to his unarmed home...

He moved.

[TACODOC]

My neighbor once criticized my firearms...I offered to put up a sign on my lawn directing criminals to his unarmed home...

He moved.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g230/devildoc25/GunBan.jpg

:elkgrin:

[Jonathan Hanson]

Dave, I totally respect your personal experience. Nevertheless, investigation into the physics of spring steel will show you that a properly-made magazine spring will not fatigue under constant compression if it's within its designed measurements.

If your Beretta springs were failing, they were badly made springs and would have failed anyway - in fact, probably sooner had they been constantly loaded and unloaded. Such springs should be replaced whether or not you unload them for long-term storage. I'm aware of a failure (fracturing) issue with Beretta 92 slides some years back. That didn't prove that open-slide semi-auto designs are prone to fracturing; it just proved Beretta made some bad slides. And that our military needs a new sidearm . . .

I've heard just as many old-timer's tales of 1911s left loaded for 50 years, that subsequently functioned perfectly. But even those are just anecdotes; it's the physics that tell the truth.

[Jnich77]

My comment was based on combat experience in Iraq where M9 pistol (Beretta 92F) mags would invariably become tired resulting in the rounds just falling out onto the ground when the mag was removed for cleaning... didn't instill much confidence in this particular sidearm for me. Our mags were more than a bit worn out by the time we reached Baghdad ;)

I've had many an old timer tell me the same thing about magazine springs in general so for long term storage mine are kept empty.

YMMV :)

The problem is the magazines you were using were probably as old as the M9. I carried one for 5 years as an MP and our unit armor would replace the springs every now and then.. we never once had a problem.

[TACODOC]

Dave, I totally respect your personal experience. Nevertheless, investigation into the physics of spring steel will show you that a properly-made magazine spring will not fatigue under constant compression if it's within its designed measurements.

If your Beretta springs were failing, they were badly made springs and would have failed anyway - in fact, probably sooner had they been constantly loaded and unloaded. Such springs should be replaced whether or not you unload them for long-term storage. I'm aware of a failure (fracturing) issue with 92 slides some years back. That didn't prove that open-slide semi-auto designs are prone to fracturing; it just proved Beretta made some bad slides. And that our military needs a new sidearm . . .

I've heard just as many old-timer's tales of 1911s left loaded for 50 years, that subsequently functioned perfectly. But even those are just anecdotes; it's the physics that tell the truth.

You're totally right, and our old Beretta's were worn out before the first shot was fired. I'm sure the sand and moon dust didnt help anything. But now it has me paranoid that MY magazine springs will suffer this fate so I store them carefully in pristine condition, in my safe :)

[Jonathan Hanson]

I understand.

The point I was trying to make was in aid of making sure some poor sod doesn't leave his personal weapon unloaded by the bedside for fear of magazine-spring fatigue, until he hears someone coming up the stairs at midnight.

[78Bronco]

Paranoia, will destroy ya!:ylsmoke:

[JIMBO]

:sombrero: I have Colts/S & W/Rock Island/Springfield A-etc 1911's

I keep the S & W 1911 "cocked & Locked" 24/7, several years ago I had heard the same caution on "loaded" mags, so I fully loaded a S & W 45acp mag (7-rounds), marked it with masking tape and set it in a safe, did all my practicing with the other mags

Then some time after a year, I noticed the LOADED-MARKED mag in one of my safes, so I took it out and tried it in my S & W 1911

No difference in speed or function

Now this doesn't prove anything , but it LENDS CREDENCE to the practice, of using GOOD quality magazines

I have a dozen Ruger plastic .22 mags, but I never keep them loaded ANYWAY

Also, I'm a little old school, I don't like to physically "unload" a magazine, they are designed to "load and shoot"

Course all my S & W stuff is SS, could have something to do with it

A sure cure, if you're worried about keeping your mags loaded to long is----PRACTICE-PRACTICE !!

:costumed-smiley-007:safari-rig::safari-rig: JIMBO

[SunTzuNephew]

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g230/devildoc25/GunBan.jpg

:elkgrin:

Thats nicer than the one I quoted him: "The house next door is defensless by choice. Mine is not"

[SunTzuNephew]

Dave, I totally respect your personal experience. Nevertheless, investigation into the physics of spring steel will show you that a properly-made magazine spring will not fatigue under constant compression if it's within its designed measurements.

If your Beretta springs were failing, they were badly made springs and would have failed anyway - in fact, probably sooner had they been constantly loaded and unloaded. Such springs should be replaced whether or not you unload them for long-term storage. I'm aware of a failure (fracturing) issue with Beretta 92 slides some years back. That didn't prove that open-slide semi-auto designs are prone to fracturing; it just proved Beretta made some bad slides. And that our military needs a new sidearm . . .

I've heard just as many old-timer's tales of 1911s left loaded for 50 years, that subsequently functioned perfectly. But even those are just anecdotes; it's the physics that tell the truth.

The springs in the early (after adoption by the US military, of the M9/92FS) were poorly made. So poorly made, in fact that when the US was going to invade Haiti many troops were only given 1 magazine, since functional magazines were in very short supply.

Despite the contempt I hold the M9/92FS in (and I both own one, and had to qualify with that POS in both the military and as a reserve sheriff) they did at least fix their springs.

[Cackalak Han]

What kind of .357 are you buying? Full frame or concealed carry? If it is a smaller frame .357, consider a .38 +P or normal .38 with a high quality self-defense load. Even a light .357 load will be a pain to handle with the smaller frame revolvers, especially the ones with smaller grips. The .38 will do the job just fine.

***NO HAND LOADED ROUND FOR SELF DEFENSE...FACTORY ONLY***

Heed the advice others have given here as far as education, defense, and planning goes.

I have a GP100 with a 6" barrel on order. It's not for carrying. Just for multiple other uses - plinking, range, maybe hunting?, and home/camp security. I might eventually get a smaller .38sp later on.

[Superu]

Glad to see this thread hasn't gone completely nuts.

As others have mentioned, perimeter lighting, well trimmed landscaping, solid and locked doors and windows all contribute mightily to making your home less attractive as a target.

Dogs, as well as being great companions, are often cited by experts as excellent deterrents regardless of size or disposition. (of course, one that will bark at someone trying to break in is probably a big plus!)

In addition to these things, simple things like having a cell phone in the bedroom, having cameras outside that will provide you with an instant view of activity. (4 cameras, a controller and a flat panel that will double as an extra TV in the bedroom can be had for short money.)

That may seem like overkill, but if you live somewhere that gives you reasonable cause to fear for your family's safety, then you should probably consider these "extras" in addition to your guns.

All that being said, the choice of handgun vs. shotgun is really going to come down to your personal choice after weighing the variables of what you are more comfortable with, likely target zones and the risk of unintended injury due to over penetration. There are plenty of excellent articles out there that will help you make the decision that is best for you based on key criteria.

Storage and accessibility has been amply covered by others and I would have to agree fully with those advocating use of a safe that provides easy access either via biometric readers or simple keypad.

Whichever weapon you choose, be sure to make time to practice with it as often as possible so its use is second nature to you. Different guns have different characteristics including safety location and the more you use the gun that you'll be choosing in a high stress situation, the better prepared you'll be should you ever need it.

And most importantly, congratulations on your upcoming new arrival! :wings:

[Maximus Ram]

Whew.. thought I was losing my mind. Glad to see it's back.




I have a GP100 with a 6" barrel on order. It's not for carrying. Just for multiple other uses - plinking, range, maybe hunting?, and home/camp security. I might eventually get a smaller .38sp later on.

Nice Ruger. My first handgun that I bought and still have. GP100 s/s w 4" barrel. Love that gun. It will shoot any .38 load out there for practice and still handle the .357's for more urgent matters.

[R_Lefebvre]

I waffled on the home defence gun issue. I think the odds of ever needing it where I live are astronomically remote. And keeping a loaded gun in the house and accessible increases the odds myself or my family will get shot by that very same gun. Keeping a gun safely locked away so accidents cannot happen negates any benefit they would have when needed. It's a catch 22.

But those gun safes on the first page sure change things. Now what about the cost?

[BIGdaddy]

I waffled on the home defence gun issue. I think the odds of ever needing it where I live are astronomically remote. And keeping a loaded gun in the house and accessible increases the odds myself or my family will get shot by that very same gun. Keeping a gun safely locked away so accidents cannot happen negates any benefit they would have when needed. It's a catch 22.

But those gun safes on the first page sure change things. Now what about the cost?

My DAC brand safe was about $70.00 and holds 2 guns. I think the gunvaults vary in size and tend to hover around $100-150.00 here in San diego.

[DarinM]

My brother just bought his a couple months ago when he got his gun. I believe he paid right around $100 USD for it. Since he has a 4 year old in the house, he felt the price was well worth it.

One thing that he and I talked about - it's not so much concern for my nephew being responsible and safe around the gun. We were brought up with guns in the house and knew all the rules, as my nephew is.
His concern as we talked about it was other kids being in the house as my nephew grows older and has sleepovers and stuff. You can always have a pretty good idea about your own kid - but maybe not so much about others'.


But those gun safes on the first page sure change things. Now what about the cost?

[daniel ruops]

Many if not most state laws allow lethal force in defense of oneself or another if presented with immediate and unavoidable danger of great bodily harm or death. (It would be best not to shoot if the perpetrator only intends to steal your GPS, eat your lunch etc.) According to Massad Ayoob, for that situation to exist, ability, opportunity, and jeopardy must exist simultaneously.

Jeopardy means that any reasonable person would have concluded that the person (inbred, cretin, lowlife, dirtbag) shot had the intent to inflict fatal or great bodily harm.

Opportunity: when shot, the suspect was close enough to their intended victim to inflict great bodily harm, death or injury.

Ability: the person shot had the power to harm or kill. Generally, there was a disparity of force (male vs. female, able-bodied vs. disabled, strength in favor of the attacker etc.)

[kjp1969]

A buddy of mine investigates burglaries for a local PD. He says he just doesn't get cases where the homeowner owns a barking dog. Doesn't happen. Of course this is far from scientific, but illustrates that most burglaries are crimes of opportunity. If they see a house with a dog, or security lighting, or other deterrents, they usually move to the next house. The vast majority of burglaries take place (at least around here) mid-morning when no one is home, and occur with a minimal amount of force- usually an unlocked door or window.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is getting to know your neighbors. My neighbors all look out for each other. My wife is constantly writing down license numbers of strange cars in the street.

Although I don't disapprove of guns in the least, they should be a small part of a discussion of home security, not a large one. They get used, by definition, when all else has failed. The more you do for prevention, the less likely that a gun will come into play. This is of special interest to the OP, or anyone with a family.

[Jnich77]

Many if not most state laws allow lethal force in defense of oneself or another if presented with immediate and unavoidable danger of great bodily harm or death. (It would be best not to shoot if the perpetrator only intends to steal your GPS, eat your lunch etc.) According to Massad Ayoob, for that situation to exist, ability, opportunity, and jeopardy must exist simultaneously.

Jeopardy means that any reasonable person would have concluded that the person (inbred, cretin, lowlife, dirtbag) shot had the intent to inflict fatal or great bodily harm.

Opportunity: when shot, the suspect was close enough to their intended victim to inflict great bodily harm, death or injury.

Ability: the person shot had the power to harm or kill. Generally, there was a disparity of force (male vs. female, able-bodied vs. disabled, strength in favor of the attacker etc.)

Here in Florida our laws are very lenient when it comes to self defense. If someone breaks into your house, you have the right to kill them before they show how big of threat they are.. the same goes for any attacker.

[bugnout]

Opportunity: when shot, the suspect was close enough to their intended victim to inflict great bodily harm, death or injury.

IRRC Dennis Tueller, A utah Policeman demonstrated that someone with a knife or club standing as far as 21 ft away could close that distance in 1.5 seconds. Faster than most of us could draw and fire. Feeling that you or your family is in jeopardy trumps any serious factoring of distance or obstacles. IMHO I'm not going to let them get close enough.

[DarinM]

Definitely!! I live in a loft apartment that's a quad. I don't know the people behind me, but I just had a new couple move in next door. Day one I am introducing myself - for really two reasons. One - I play guitar. Please let me know immediately if it ever becomes an issue and I will make sure it never happens again. Two - I am out of town alot of weekends. I will tell you when I'm going to be gone so you'll know if you hear anything that sounds bigger than my two defective cats, it's not me. So please call the police.

So far I have had no complaints about my jam sessions, and my neighbors have all agreed to let me know when they're going to be gone as well. We don't have a lot of crime where I live, although my Jeep has been messed with on several occasions in the parking lot.

It just makes me feel better knowing that my neighbors know who I am and have agreed to keep an eye on the place when I'm not around.



One thing that hasn't been mentioned is getting to know your neighbors. My neighbors all look out for each other. My wife is constantly writing down license numbers of strange cars in the street.

[ExpoMike]

I go by what my dad tought me years ago, better to judged by 12, then carried by 6.

I grew up around guns my whole life. At 7 years old, I had passed the CA Hunter Safety program, the youngest at the time to ever do so. I was educated about gun safety from a very young age and pass on my knowledge to gun owning friends who I see do something that could potentally cause harm.

My ex-wife was VERY anti-gun/hunting and would not allow any firearms or for me to even go target shooting. Lisa, who has not really been exposed to firearms, has had the willingness to learn and let me tell you, our first day at the range (had her shooting a Ruger .22 pistol) based on her shot grouping, I don't think I would want to cross her. It was very surprising to see how well she did on her first time out. We worked a lot on safety do's and don'ts and I see a future of us enjoying this sport.

I agree with all that education is the key, regardless of your feelings on home defense, loaded/unloaded, type of weapon, etc., etc.

[BigAl]

I'm sure the intruder won't wait until you have a chance to open up your safe, unlock the trigger lock, load your ammo and take aim. So what do you do?



I'm such a deep sleeper that an intruder would have shake me awake and give me a cup of coffee, so I don't think it matters much what I would prepare for,... but what about an ankle holster and just sleep with it on all the time? I wouldn't do it, but I slept with soft cast on before, it can't be much different.:)

[kjp1969]

One time I awoke suddenly to what I thought was a burgler coming through my window. I was up and out of bed, across the room, and had my hands around my wife's neck before I recognized her and shut off the adreneline. She had gotten up in the middle of the night to close the window.

At least that's my story, and I'm sticking to it. :)

[cnynrat]

Another quick access storage option that allows you to keep a loaded weapon secure is the Titan Gun Vault (http://www.titangunvault.com/). Couple things I like about this product are that you can buy additional mounting brackets and easily move the safe from one location to another (primary residence to secondary residence as an example), and they also have an option for storing a second magazine.

[TACODOC]

Another quick access storage option that allows you to keep a loaded weapon secure is the Titan Gun Vault (http://www.titangunvault.com/). Couple things I like about this product are that you can buy additional mounting brackets and easily move the safe from one location to another (primary residence to secondary residence as an example), and they also have an option for storing a second magazine.

Very cool. I wonder what the legality is of that mounted in a vehicle (the whole "it has to be locked in a different compartment thing")

[02TahoeMD]

Figured I would weigh in here with a few observations / anecdotes on assorted points in this thread....

I have carried Sig Sauer, Glock, Smith & Wesson, and Kimber semi autos in one capacity or another for going on 17 years now. Never bothered to cycle the magazine springs and the guns have always functioned fine. Of course, they do get unloaded the fun way on a fairly regular basis, and I recognize that bad mags can really ruin someone's day when Mr Murphy pays a visit. If you do question the condition and quality of your mags, then invest the money to replace them...... as a related aside, I did have a Sig P228 spring fail in my gun during one qualification course. Round 7 went down range and the gun died, becoming a paperweight. Then last year I shot over 2K rounds through my Glock 22 during a week's course and afterwards the armorer did a complete tear down discovering several connector pins broken completely in half. The gun never gave any indication of a problem and ran flawlessly. I do love that piece.
.......

I used to keep a "cold" gun next to my bed, nothing in the tube but a full magazine in it. I figured that was a pretty safe way to keep the gun. Then one morning I woke to find I had field stripped the gun and it was sitting in 5 pieces on my bedstand, all done in my sleep. That scared me silly. Now I keep a shotgun nearby in a place I have to be awake to get to. SO, while I think it is essential to have some kind of defensive weapon ready to repel any miscreants, make sure you will be awake when getting it.

.........

Dogs are fabulous deterrents, but criminals can be dumb as a box of hammers. About 8 years ago I was awakened about 0200 by my GSD Ranger barking. Really, thinking nothing of it, I told him to be quiet and went back to sleep. I got up a few hours later for work only to find the screen missing from my kitchen window, which thankfully was locked. No entry was gained, but that kitchen window was next to Ranger's outdoor kennel with a 12" x 18" sign that reads Warning Police K9! Thankfully the CSI tech was able to match a print from the screen (found next door) to a known criminal. He actually tried 7 houses on my street that night, successfully entering 3 with open, unlocked windows, and stealing purses and wallets. The fingerprint from my house helped convict him and send him to jail. My lament - if only I had woken up and listened to my dog! Chasing a burglar with a Police K9 is great fun.

...........

I live in a nice neighborhood and have a marked police vehicle in my driveway, and still someone tried to get in. So, for those of you who still keep your doors and windows unlocked....think again. Seriously. Your safety and security depends upon it. Also, keep your cars locked unless you dont mind contributing your loose change/GPS/stereo to your local crack heads. It always amazes me the incredibly high number of people who still dont secure their cars.....not smart.

................

For those that think they would feel guilty over killing someone in self defense and wont prepare to defend themselves with lethal force, well, that would have to be a "to each their own" view. I certainly dont feel that way, but oh well.

If you do choose to arm yourself, then make certain you have a plan on how to deal with such a situation in your home, and practice, practice, practice. Chance favors the prepared mind - truer words have never been spoken.

[cnynrat]

Very cool. I wonder what the legality is of that mounted in a vehicle (the whole "it has to be locked in a different compartment thing")

Not a lawyer, so take this for what it's worth.

Assuming you do not possess a CA CCW permit, in CA the gun would need to be unloaded. If you carried the gun unloaded you could use the accessory magazine compartment to carry a magazine that was readily available as soon as the main vault was opened. IMO you would be OK with that in terms of meeting the requirement to carry the weapon unloaded.

Some are of the opinion that if you mounted one of these in your vehicle it may be considered a "utility compartment", which is one of the places mentioned in the CA law that you are NOT allowed to carry a concealable firearm in a vehicle (the other being the glove compartment).

Bottom line IMO is it's a gray area.

[TACODOC]

Bottom line IMO is it's a gray area.

No doubt.

[preacherman]

I have a German Sheppard and a gun. The gun is locked up unloaded and the German Sheppard sleeps next to the bed. I figure there is little chance of the German Sheppard accidentally going off....but then again there is most likely a smaller chance that the gun would crap in my living room....so I dono what's better...:sombrero:

[preacherman]

how was that for my 500th post???

:wings::wings:

[Fergie]

I have a GP100 with a 6" barrel on order. It's not for carrying. Just for multiple other uses - plinking, range, maybe hunting?, and home/camp security. I might eventually get a smaller .38sp later on.

Good gun indeed.

Shoot the gun with your self-defense rounds after you become proficient with it. You want to know how to handle it with a hotter load.

You should be able to shoot the .38spl out of the .357 without issue, but check your manual to be sure. I can shoot both rounds in my .357, but not the other way around.

If the .357 is too much, the .38 will be a good round for you.

[CoastalDefender]

Never store pistol/rifle magazines loaded for long periods of time. It degrades the springs and they will FAIL you when you need them.

Revolvers are best for long term loaded storage.

.02

Calling CRAP!

Nothing but respect for you man, but I have to correct a common misconception.

Springs degrade with multiple compressions/de-compressions.

You can store a loaded magazine with no more ill-effects than an unloaded magazine.

It's basic physics.


In fact, the most dangerous thing that can happen to a loaded magazine over time is the spreading/failing of the feed/magazine lips over long periods of time.

Load them and store them friends, won't hurt a thing. I don't care what the starches in TRADOC hand down...

[ExpoMike]

I have a German Sheppard and a gun. The gun is locked up unloaded and the German Sheppard sleeps next to the bed. I figure there is little chance of the German Sheppard accidentally going off....but then again there is most likely a smaller chance that the gun would crap in my living room....so I dono what's better...:sombrero:

Oh now that is funny!!!! :elkgrin:

[Every Miles A Memory]

http://everymilesamemory.smugmug.com/photos/652039512_aie8E-M.jpg

[Mc Taco]

Some observations:

I may be statistically more likely to be struck by lightning then confronted by an armed attacker, but I'm not going to golf during a thundershower. What I mean is that I'm going to be prepared for the danger.

I didn't know that you could fire 9mm in a .357. I know that it is the same diameter, but the rim is different. If someone can show me a pic of the half moon thingy, thanks.

As to the springs, Dave's advice is what I've always heard. But now some of you are telling me what I want to hear, that it is okay to leave a mag loaded. You're assuaging some of my guilt for abusing my tools. But I don't like to accept advice that is what I want to believe. Sceptic at heart.

As to the OP, what was your question again?

[grouch]

Here are the moons,

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&productId=61521&tabselected=over&parent_category_rn=16232

Here's how they work,

http://jamesazacharyjr.blogspot.com/2009/06/smith-wesson-model-940-9mm-revolver.html

[SunTzuNephew]

Some observations:

I may be statistically more likely to be struck by lightning then confronted by an armed attacker, but I'm not going to golf during a thundershower. What I mean is that I'm going to be prepared for the danger.


Nope, 50 people hit by lightning each year in the US, 1.5 MILLION victims of violent crime.... you are far more likely to be threatened by a criminal than mother nature.

[OS-Aussie]

1/. Install motion sensors

2/. Change the alarm siren to play the noise of a pump action loading

[zimm]

Calling CRAP!

Nothing but respect for you man, but I have to correct a common misconception.

Springs degrade with multiple compressions/de-compressions.

You can store a loaded magazine with no more ill-effects than an unloaded magazine.

It's basic physics.


In fact, the most dangerous thing that can happen to a loaded magazine over time is the spreading/failing of the feed/magazine lips over long periods of time.

Load them and store them friends, won't hurt a thing. I don't care what the starches in TRADOC hand down...

depends on quality, but compressed springs can set a bit. do you recall shattennjaggeresses truck springs? they failed under a constant load, not from compression cycles.

[Jonathan Hanson]

Springs fail when they have been flexed past their yield point. Think of the valve springs in your engine, which can experience a quarter billion cycles over their life, and can often be reinstalled after a valve job. They survive that because they cycle within the limits of their design parameters. Suspension springs sag when they have either repeatedly or for a single protracted instance exceeded those parameters, and molecular bonds start shearing. A properly made spring left compressed within its design length will suffer no fatigue.

Back to topic, again.

[kjp1969]

I have several Glock magazines that have never stored filled to the brim for 15years, emptied one round at a time at the range. Even then, they are refilled and left to sit for another several months. I've never had a single malfunction.

Rather than debate the theory and physics of springs or parrot back something they heard, has anyone here ever had a magazine failure related to long term storage while filled? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

[Jonathan Hanson]

I'm positive we could collect a hundred anecdotes from both sides, but they would be just that - anecdotes. Without metallurgical analysis of the spring in question, there's no way to determine why it failed or didn't fail after long-term storage, or indeed if an entirely unrelated problem was the cause - corrosion, bent feed lips, bad follower, etc. etc. etc.

Anecdotally, I've personally heard many more stories of long-term storage having no ill effects. In such cases as Dave described with the Beretta, it seems clear to me that another factor such as poor quality control was the cause of repeated documented failures in one type of weapon.

From what I can gather, for the casual or even frequent shooter, there's little difference in results whether you leave your magazines loaded or constantly cycle through them. In either case a quality magazine spring should be able to handle the stress.

[kjp1969]

I'm positive we could collect a hundred anecdotes from both sides, but they would be just that - anecdotes. Without metallurgical analysis of the spring in question, there's no way to determine why it failed or didn't fail after long-term storage, or indeed if an entirely unrelated problem was the cause - corrosion, bent feed lips, bad follower, etc. etc. etc.

Anecdotally, I've personally heard many more stories of long-term storage having no ill effects. In such cases as Dave described with the Beretta, it seems clear to me that another factor such as poor quality control was the cause of repeated documented failures in one type of weapon.

From what I can gather, for the casual or even frequent shooter, there's little difference in results whether you leave your magazines loaded or constantly cycle through them. In either case a quality magazine spring should be able to handle the stress.

I totally agree on all counts.

It seems to me that LEO's in particular load up their magazine and keep them that way for years on end, yet need them all to work flawlessly at a moment's notice. I would think that if keeping magazines filled up and sitting were so bad, we would have many more first person accounts of failures.

[Mc Taco]

Nope, 50 people hit by lightning each year in the US, 1.5 MILLION victims of violent crime.... you are far more likely to be threatened by a criminal than mother nature.

I don't buy into the statistic either, but was using it as an example that I like to be prepared and avoid potential dangers. :)

[zimm]

I personally like Tacodoc's "kill zone" theory!

This conversation would be better suited around the campfire about 2 in the morning!


with the 2 am buzz on.



the spring issue is quality. the cheap ones set a bit but ive never had a fail to feed because of a spring. i dont know anyone that has. ive used a screwdrivers and pry bars to "open up" a mag a bit to lessen friction.

i also know dudes that store their classic cars on blocks with the wheels off, swearing it saves the springs... not to sure about that one either.

[Mayne]

All these post and only one about the most intimedating sound in the world, the pump gun. I subscribe to the policy of two sets of sharp teeth next to the bed. I do have a pump gun in the closet, but as I grab said shot gun, person x is still dealing with rover 1 and rover 2. I have a number of side arms, but the truth of the matter is when adrenaline kicks in, (not being trained militarily or profesionally) these situations take aim out of the picture. I can rack a round into the pump gun letting everyone in the house (invited or not) know my intent. 99% effective, say no more, threat leaves. If threat decides to stay, the 00 buck is going to cut anything in that range in half. No aim, no probelmo. Just point and pull and rack round 2 or more. I have no desire to hurt anyone in this world or the next. But I'd rather be on trail for thier murder insted of having it the other way.

Mayne

[Jnich77]

If threat decides to stay, the 00 buck is going to cut anything in that range in half

Hoping that it doesn't go int a kids room, or your neighbors house. I use #7 so it will not go through as much stuff before it stops.

[BIGdaddy]

All these post and only one about the most intimedating sound in the world, the pump gun. I subscribe to the policy of two sets of sharp teeth next to the bed. I do have a pump gun in the closet, but as I grab said shot gun, person x is still dealing with rover 1 and rover 2. I have a number of side arms, but the truth of the matter is when adrenaline kicks in, (not being trained militarily or profesionally) these situations take aim out of the picture. I can rack a round into the pump gun letting everyone in the house (invited or not) know my intent. 99% effective, say no more, threat leaves. If threat decides to stay, the 00 buck is going to cut anything in that range in half. No aim, no probelmo. Just point and pull and rack round 2 or more. I have no desire to hurt anyone in this world or the next. But I'd rather be on trail for thier murder insted of having it the other way.

Mayne


In the two encounters I've had with men looking in my windows and trying to get in, I put one in the tube and four in the magazine of my 870 pump as quietly as possible. Here's my thinking..

1. I didn't want him to know I was there
2. I didn't want him to know I had a gun
3. I wanted him to decide on his own my house
wasn't worth it
4. I wanted him to be completely surprised and therefore, without a fighting
mindset when and if I shot him.

Same would go for an intruder inside. He's in my house, and has already made the mistake of being where he shouldn't be:

-I'm not going to assume he'll run at the sound of a shotgun racking

-I'm not going to assume I'll be able to survive a shootout.

-If possible, I want the only shots fired to be mine, preferably into his back, with no risk to me, other than my hearing. I will NOT yell freeze, I will not try to scare him, cuz I honestly think I'd be too scared to talk.

You might call this fighting dirty. I call it fighting to win.

my .20 :)

[zimm]

In the two encounters I've had with men looking in my windows and trying to get in, I put one in the tube and four in the magazine of my 870 pump as quietly as possible. Here's my thinking..

1. I didn't want him to know I was there
2. I didn't want him to know I had a gun
3. I wanted him to decide on his own my house
wasn't worth it
4. I wanted him to be completely surprised and therefore, without a fighting
mindset when and if I shot him.

Same would go for an intruder inside. He's in my house, and has already made the mistake of being where he shouldn't be:

-I'm not going to assume he'll run at the sound of a shotgun racking

-I'm not going to assume I'll be able to survive a shootout.

-If possible, I want the only shots fired to be mine, preferably into his back, with no risk to me, other than my hearing. I will NOT yell freeze, I will not try to scare him, cuz I honestly think I'd be too scared to talk.

You might call this fighting dirty. I call it fighting to win.

my .20 :)

i call it knowingly increasing the odds you get to kill someone. if you honestly think youll be too scared to yell freeze or what not, how well do you think youre gonna handle having killed a man for material possessions?

[Jnich77]

In the two encounters I've had with men looking in my windows and trying to get in, I put one in the tube and four in the magazine of my 870 pump as quietly as possible. Here's my thinking..

1. I didn't want him to know I was there
2. I didn't want him to know I had a gun
3. I wanted him to decide on his own my house
wasn't worth it
4. I wanted him to be completely surprised and therefore, without a fighting
mindset when and if I shot him.

Same would go for an intruder inside. He's in my house, and has already made the mistake of being where he shouldn't be:

-I'm not going to assume he'll run at the sound of a shotgun racking

-I'm not going to assume I'll be able to survive a shootout.

-If possible, I want the only shots fired to be mine, preferably into his back, with no risk to me, other than my hearing. I will NOT yell freeze, I will not try to scare him, cuz I honestly think I'd be too scared to talk.

You might call this fighting dirty. I call it fighting to win.

my .20 :)

I call it defending your home with your available resources and skill level.

[zimm]

I call it defending your home with your available resources and skill level.

youre not defending your home, youre defending your life. homeowners insurance defends your home.

[Cackalak Han]

i call it knowingly increasing the odds you get to kill someone. if you honestly think youll be too scared to yell freeze or what not, how well do you think youre gonna handle having killed a man for material possessions?

That brings up a point. How do you, or would you, prepare yourself mentally without actually putting yourself in that situation? Or will there be just too much adrenaline flowing to matter? I'll admit, I'd probably have a tough time dealing with the fact that I have taken a life, no matter how low. Now, I'm not rethinking this whole issue, because when it comes down to the intruder killing or harming my family, there is no doubt that I WILL pull the trigger. At the same time, I'll most likely have a tough time getting over it.

This is all assumptions. Anyone have input on this?

[BIGdaddy]

i call it knowingly increasing the odds you get to kill someone. if you honestly think youll be too scared to yell freeze or what not, how well do you think youre gonna handle having killed a man for material possessions?

I don't think I'd be too scared to talk, I know I would be, its happened twice. It also happened to me as a lifeguard and as a firefighter. Its different for everyone.

All I told my wife apparently was, "get the kids", and she took them to the spot we had previously discussed. My particular tunnel vision effects my ability to communicate effectively, but not my motor skills, because I had loaded and shouldered my shotgun with it pointed in a safe direction, without really realising it. I took up station in the spot I had chosen prior to the event that afforded me a view of both possible entrances to our house at the time.

What material possesions have I mentioned that I would be protecting? I think the OP was talking about defending his family not a laptop and his flatscreen.

My motivation is no different.

Seems like you fired off that response without thinking about it. no worries, though. good discussion.

:)

[Superu]

I've been waiting for the old "sound of the pump action scaring them off" to come around.

There are two things that racking your gun may do in the situations described.

One is a possibility.

The other is a certainty.

One: It may scare off the intruder who is not looking to get shot. This assumes he is not on crack, meth, or who knows what else.

Two: It will immediately tell the intruder where you are.

Quickly achieving the two least likely outcomes you would want in this situation. Giving up your advantage of surprise and enabling him to act in a hostile manner towards your position.

[Superu]

That brings up a point. How do you, or would you, prepare yourself mentally without actually putting yourself in that situation? Or will there be just too much adrenaline flowing to matter? I'll admit, I'd probably have a tough time dealing with the fact that I have taken a life, no matter how low. Now, I'm not rethinking this whole issue, because when it comes down to the intruder killing or harming my family, there is no doubt that I WILL pull the trigger. At the same time, I'll most likely have a tough time getting over it.

This is all assumptions. Anyone have input on this?

I would like to think that I would be somewhat impacted and likely a bit saddened by having taken a person's life. I tend to be very pragmatic and would expect that I wouldn't be crippled by it long term, but none of us really knows until faced with that situation how we will be afterwards.

We do what we have to do when called to action and hope that we make the best decisions possible.

Good luck and try to focus on the joys coming your way and don't let yourself get too bogged down in the what ifs. You sound like a pretty reasonable guy and I would guess from what I've read so far, you'll make sound decisions.

p.s. Home security cameras and that little extra flat screen really do go a long way for short money. I have external cameras even though we live in a relatively safe area, but my wife loves being able to look at the screen and see who's coming up the driveway, at the door, etc.

Also, the few times that the security system has gone off in the middle of the night, I've bolted out of bed with more adrenaline flowing then you can imagine. Not many intruders are likely to hang around when floods come on and sirens start blaring. :ylsmoke:

[Jnich77]

youre not defending your home, youre defending your life. homeowners insurance defends your home.

Not really, it just replaces it.... ruger defends my home...lol

[tdesanto]

...I use #7 so it will not go through as much stuff before it stops.

This is a highly-debated topic and I'm not sure which to choose. I've read that #7 or 7.5 is a good defensive load at the short ranges one would encounter in a home, but I've also read that it won't penetrate enough to do any real good.

I think we'd all agree that #00 is plenty of stopping power, but I've read that it can penetrate several walls. I've read the same for most handgun calibers, 9mm-.45.

This always seems like a nerve-racking scenario--you need enough to stop someone, but you also don't want to harm a family member in the next room.

This is not a big deal if things go as we've planned and we're in the same room, but this would be a different story if we're separated whithin the house.

[Jnich77]

This is a highly-debated topic and I'm not sure which to choose. I've read that #7 or 7.5 is a good defensive load at the short ranges one would encounter in a home, but I've also read that it won't penetrate enough to do any real good.

I think we'd all agree that #00 is plenty of stopping power, but I've read that it can penetrate several walls. I've read the same for most handgun calibers, 9mm-.45.

This always seems like a nerve-racking scenario--you need enough to stop someone, but you also don't want to harm a family member in the next room.

This is not a big deal if things go as we've planned and we're in the same room, but this would be a different story if we're separated whithin the house.

If you fire a 12ga at someone, regardless of the damage.. I would imagine that it would make then seriously rethink the choices they were currently making...lol.

As for me.. I prefer my mini-14.. not a big round.. but fires fast enough and is small enough for me to effectively clear my house.

[Cackalak Han]

Thanks for your feedback. I guess I will just hope for the best, should I find myself in that situation. I'll definitely look into the security cameras. I've seen some at Costco for $500, but don't know if it'll be any good. Also, I'm in the process of installing motion sensor flood lights. I am hoping this will almost guarantee no intrusions. But I will still be prepared. Thanks again for the inputs and warm wishes.


I would like to think that I would be somewhat impacted and likely a bit saddened by having taken a person's life. I tend to be very pragmatic and would expect that I wouldn't be crippled by it long term, but none of us really knows until faced with that situation how we will be afterwards.

We do what we have to do when called to action and hope that we make the best decisions possible.

Good luck and try to focus on the joys coming your way and don't let yourself get too bogged down in the what ifs. You sound like a pretty reasonable guy and I would guess from what I've read so far, you'll make sound decisions.

p.s. Home security cameras and that little extra flat screen really do go a long way for short money. I have external cameras even though we live in a relatively safe area, but my wife loves being able to look at the screen and see who's coming up the driveway, at the door, etc.

Also, the few times that the security system has gone off in the middle of the night, I've bolted out of bed with more adrenaline flowing then you can imagine. Not many intruders are likely to hang around when floods come on and sirens start blaring. :ylsmoke:

[cnynrat]

I have a number of side arms, but the truth of the matter is when adrenaline kicks in, (not being trained militarily or profesionally) these situations take aim out of the picture. I can rack a round into the pump gun letting everyone in the house (invited or not) know my intent. 99% effective, say no more, threat leaves. If threat decides to stay, the 00 buck is going to cut anything in that range in half. No aim, no probelmo. Just point and pull and rack round 2 or more.

Mayne

It's often believed that with a shotgun you take the requirement to aim out of the picture. I agree a shotgun is more forgiving than a handgun in this respect, and certainly don't take anything away from those that choose a shotgun over a handgun as a HD weapon. However, I think you'll find that at the typical distances for a home/self defense encounter you do need to aim the shotgun. You are probably looking at a 4-6" pattern, so it is possible to miss your intended target.

[SunTzuNephew]

If you fire a 12ga at someone, regardless of the damage.. I would imagine that it would make then seriously rethink the choices they were currently making...lol.

As for me.. I prefer my mini-14.. not a big round.. but fires fast enough and is small enough for me to effectively clear my house.

As an Emergency Physician, I've seen a LOT of people who have been shot with a LOT of different weapons. I generally don't see the ones who are dead right there, since the coroner gets them...

I have (personally) seen people survive being shot with everything from a .177 air rifle pellet up to a 30mm cannon. I have also seen a video of a Marine who was shot with an RPG and survived, the surgeon who cut it out of him got a well-deserved Silver Star.

I have seen people survive getting shot with 12 gauge slugs, buckshot, and bird shot (all hits in the torso/abdomen). I've seen people die on the table from those too.

I have seen people shot with .22 rimfires, and survive. And die. President Reagan almost died from a ricochet from a .22LR, and when I say almost it was a very close thing.

I've seen a lot of people shot with .357/.38, .45, .40, and of course 9mm. A lot survive, a lot don't. I've seen people shot with .44mags and walk into the hospital (center of mass shot) and people die from shots in the arm or leg.

I've seen people shot with hunting rifles, at close and long range. Some survived (including a shot through the head with a .30 cal hunting round), some died. I've seen people shot with .50BMG and survive, same with 5.56/.223 (including M193 55gr and SS109 62gr).

The bottom line is that there is nothing that is a stopper all the time. Nothing is a guaranteed man-stopper (including a 20mm and RPG).

I've also seen people shot with arrows (long bow, cross bow), muzzle loaders, ramrods from muzzle loaders, cut with knives, mutilated with chainsaws, blown up with explosives and burned with chemicals and flame. Some live, some die, and nothing is a sure deal.

Having said that, I carry a G21 or G30 in .45ACP....draw what you will from that. Around the house, I also carry a G21 or G30. I have shotguns (12 ga pump, loaded with #4Buck) and rifles (AR-15 platforms, loaded with 55gr FMJ) handy, but the go-to for short distances (like in the house) is the G21.

[TACODOC]

Calling CRAP!

Nothing but respect for you man, but I have to correct a common misconception.

Springs degrade with multiple compressions/de-compressions.

You can store a loaded magazine with no more ill-effects than an unloaded magazine.

It's basic physics.

In fact, the most dangerous thing that can happen to a loaded magazine over time is the spreading/failing of the feed/magazine lips over long periods of time.

Load them and store them friends, won't hurt a thing. I don't care what the starches in TRADOC hand down...

I called in a lifeline. This is from a VERY well versed Marine who knows more about gunsmithing and all things firearms related than most. It explains why my mags sucked in 2003 which has led to my current distrust:



Those mags you mention were (I'd wager) Checkmate brand mags for the M9.

DESPITE checkmate's warnings, the Government INSISTED that the mags be Phosphate coated INSIDE as well as out.

This led to dirt, dust and sand, sticking to the inside of the mags and impeding the magazine spring. (Exactly as you noted)

This is why so many people had Beretta brand mags sent over (Mecgar) as they did not have this problem with blued mags. (Checkmate makes excellent mags otherwise, they just were forced to make these to Government specs)

Older springs did have issues remaining loaded.

This is what happened to me, and I just went and looked... yep, I have several M9 mags that are fully phosphate coated. Combined with the MOONDUST in Iraq it turned them into junk.

[spencyg]

I grew up around guns but don't own any of my own. I am not a trained professional with regards to firearms, and when my adreline starts going, my reactions and physical fine motor skills go to ****e. I think I'm not alone in this, and if my house were being targeted by unknown interuder, my adreline would undoubtedly make any attemps to use a firearm more dangerous to myself and my family than to the intruder. I'm not sure if this is just me being tweaky or not, but I have a feeling that most in a similar situation would find their hands to be very very very shaky.

As a result of this fact, guns are more of a liability to me than an asset. I live in the city and there is a somewhat rough area a few blocks away. I am intent on home safety and have employed these measures.

-I have a dog
-I always lock my steel clad doors and windows. Always.
-I have good motion sensing lights
-I make sure my property doesn't attact any un-due attention
-I know my neighbors and they know me
-A sticker indicating that your house is protected with an alarm goes a long way to keeping potential thieves out....my windows have alarm stickers.
-A phone is always in the bedroom

Does this protect me and my family from a strung out rapist? No. Does it keep the strung out rapist at bay until I can call the cops? Yes.

The cops are the professionals. If you can keep the intruder at bay (i.e. safely contained) until they arrive, you'll be far better off. If you're worried about not being able to keep the intruder at bay with physical deterrants, than revisit the above list and make sure you have a checkmark at each line.

Just my $0.02.

P.S. Why in the hell would you want to advertise that you've got guns in your house???? That is just BEGGING for a breakin by people who want your guns when you're not home! Holy crap!

Spence

[zimm]

.

Seems like you fired off that response without thinking about it. no worries, though. good discussion.

:)

nope. but thanks for assuaging my fears.

are there rapists out there? sure. they tend to target single women. the other break ins are thefts. a thief cant buy drugs with your dead body. they arnt after your dead body. they are after the money and easily transported valuables. so... when someone is discussing "defending their family" with weapons, what they are really discussing is defending their possessions. 99.9% of the time.... because, you see, unless its a child slavery ring showing up at the door.... they dont want you.

so, if you want to spend all of your time contemplating how you get to blow away a guy in your house, instead of making him aware of your presence so he leaves, bully for you.

but i think that advise sucks, and im going to say why. a good security system, and a loud alert dog, will make him safer than you without having to draw up plans for legal homicide.

should he buy a mossburg marine grade shotgun for the closet? sure. but if its use isnt the 10th thing on the list for keeping your family out of harms way, youre lookin to kill. a firefight is last resort, not first...

[Jonathan Hanson]

Spence, I appreciate your honesty about how you think you'd react in an emergency situation if you had a firearm. But I think you're being optimistic in counting on the police to arrive it time to save you from a "strung-out rapist." At least in Tucson you would be.

Several years ago, when we lived in town, Roseann was home alone and heard a noise in the side yard. She looked out a window and saw a young man there looking through our tools. She immediately called 911 and armed herself. Five minutes later the police still hadn't arrived, and she saw the man at the side door, which he tried and, finding locked, immediately set to attempting to pry open with a screwdriver. At that point Roseann had had enough and decided not to wait until the guy was inside, so she presented herself at the door's window with a handgun aimed, and shouted at the man to leave because she was armed and about to fire.

He took off.

The police arrived 10 minutes later.

Given the above scenario, have you considered at least arming yourself with a non-lethal weapon such as pepper spray?

[spencyg]

At least in Tucson you would be.

I certainly don't live in Tuscon, but your point is noted. Police are notorious for being around when you don't want them, and not being around when you do


Several years ago, when we lived in town, Roseann was home alone and heard a noise in the side yard. She looked out a window and saw a young man there looking through our tools.

I think this falls under the umbrella statement of letting your property attract undue attention. If the general populas (law abiding or otherwise) has access to your unsecured belongings, you've already lost. By having all sorts of fun tools for the intruder to have access to you have done two things:

#1 - Provided him with tools to gain entry into your house
#2 - Provided him with insight as to what other treasures he might find once in your house.

By not having stuff out and about, you limit another's ability to gain entry by restricting his abilities due to a lack of resources. Without a screwdriver, he probably would have moved on. Also, if you didn't get his attention by providing potential bounty in his theiving escapades, he probably never would have stopped on your property in the first place.


Given the above scenario, have you considered at least arming yourself with a non-lethal weapon such as pepper spray?

My wife has pepper spray. I have no problem using a baseball bat. This of course only applies to your home....but that is all this tread is addressing, so it works.

Spence

[BIGdaddy]

nope. but thanks for assuaging my fears.

are there rapists out there? sure. they tend to target single women. the other break ins are thefts. a thief cant buy drugs with your dead body. they arnt after your dead body. they are after the money and easily transported valuables. so... when someone is discussing "defending their family" with weapons, what they are really discussing is defending their possessions. 99.9% of the time.... because, you see, unless its a child slavery ring showing up at the door.... they dont want you.

so, if you want to spend all of your time contemplating how you get to blow away a guy in your house, instead of making him aware of your presence so he leaves, bully for you.

but i think that advise sucks, and im going to say why. a good security system, and a loud alert dog, will make him safer than you without having to draw up plans for legal homicide.

should he buy a mossburg marine grade shotgun for the closet? sure. but if its use isnt the 10th thing on the list for keeping your family out of harms way, youre lookin to kill. a firefight is last resort, not first...



hmmm...I think we'll have to agree to disagree. Being prepared and having enough courage to face an intruder with a gun, is far different, than "looking" to kill someone.

This is a basic arguement and I see you're coming from a far different place, and I respect that.

My house has lights, my house has a dog, my doors are locked. We close our blinds, and we do not own flashy things. If these things do not deter an intruder my next step is to end the threat with the best means possible, and thats a sneaky, dirty attack with a gun aimed center mass.

The assumption that an intruder, intent on stealing, is not interested in doing harm to the people in the house is very shortsighted, but again, we'll have to agree to disagree.

That's all I've got. moving on.

-Regards, Brian

[DH2002]

Spence, I appreciate your honesty about how you think you'd react in an emergency situation if you had a firearm. But I think you're being optimistic in counting on the police to arrive it time to save you from a "strung-out rapist." At least in Tucson you would be.

Several years ago, when we lived in town, Roseann was home alone and heard a noise in the side yard. She looked out a window and saw a young man there looking through our tools. She immediately called 911 and armed herself. Five minutes later the police still hadn't arrived, and she saw the man at the side door, which he tried and, finding locked, immediately set to attempting to pry open with a screwdriver. At that point Roseann had had enough and decided not to wait until the guy was inside, so she presented herself at the door's window with a handgun aimed, and shouted at the man to leave because she was armed and about to fire.

He took off.

The police arrived 10 minutes later.

Given the above scenario, have you considered at least arming yourself with a non-lethal weapon such as pepper spray?

Is this a common problem in Tucson with the Police arriving late? Cause While I do respect your wife for defending herself, the initial call was a suspicous man in yard, not break in, in progress which would warrent a different response time. Congrats to her though on not choosing to become a victim.

Also in my house along with my service pistol I have a save 12gauge semi auto shotgun with 5 in the tube ready to go.

[BIGdaddy]

I certainly don't live in Tuscon, but your point is noted. Police are notorious for being around when you don't want them, and not being around when you do



I think this falls under the umbrella statement of letting your property attract undue attention. If the general populas (law abiding or otherwise) has access to your unsecured belongings, you've already lost. By having all sorts of fun tools for the intruder to have access to you have done two things:

#1 - Provided him with tools to gain entry into your house
#2 - Provided him with insight as to what other treasures he might find once in your house.

By not having stuff out and about, you limit another's ability to gain entry by restricting his abilities due to a lack of resources. Without a screwdriver, he probably would have moved on. Also, if you didn't get his attention by providing potential bounty in his theiving escapades, he probably never would have stopped on your property in the first place.



My wife has pepper spray. I have no problem using a baseball bat. This of course only applies to your home....but that is all this tread is addressing, so it works.

Spence


Spence, spence...dude, did you just blame the Hanson's for an attempted robbery?

It wasn't their fault, buddy, lets get that straight. And tools being left out?

You don't have a storage shed outside?

I have like 75 tools outside...rototillers, powerwashers, shovels..all hanging on the backside of our mini-barn.

Jonathan was highlighting a scenario where cops were not a factor, and that a brave woman with a gun, was. She's safe, the perp is safe, and running the other way.

done deal.

[spencyg]

My house has lights, my house has a dog, my doors are locked. We close our blinds, and we do not own flashy things. If these things do not deter an intruder my next step is to end the threat with the best means possible, and thats a sneaky, dirty attack with a gun aimed center mass.


So this intruder breaks down your steel door, disables your dog, and then continues to go about their business knowing at that point you are awake and at the very least calling the cops, if not preparing to kill them. I'd say a person like this would be after something very specific and they KNOW you have it...not a casual intruder or somebody looking to commit a random act of violence. To be in a scenario listed above, you have either

A: Really really pissed somebody off and deserve what you get
B: Word got out that you have something specific of high value and they want it, no matter what.

Situation A - you're on your own. Sometimes people just get what they deserve.

Situation B - Why the hell are you telling ANYBODY that you have something of value in your house?

All other burgularies would be deterred by either your steel door or your dog. If it was a premeditated effort, they would wait until you are not home, at which point your gun would probably get stolen too.

Spence

[spencyg]

Spence, spence...dude, did you just blame the Hanson's for an attempted robbery?

It wasn't their fault, buddy, lets get that straight. And tools being left out?

You don't have a storage shed outside?

I have like 75 tools outside...rototillers, powerwashers, shovels..all hanging on the backside of our mini-barn.

Jonathan was highlighting a scenario where cops were not a factor, and that a brave woman with a gun, was. She's safe, the perp is safe, and running the other way.

done deal.

So you just provided a potential robber with tools to break in, or just items which they can steal without you ever knowing. A storage shed can be locked down just a securely as your house. Start at the top of the list with home security and work your way down. Keeping all of your loose belongings under control and out of plain sight should be considered at the top of the list. End of story.

Spence

[Jonathan Hanson]

Without a screwdriver, he probably would have moved on.

Now that's an optimistic conclusion. It also incorrectly, and dangerously, implies that some of the blame for the incident lies with us, as Bigdaddy pointed out. A rock would have sufficed for this guy to break a window. Are we being negligent by having rocks in our yard?

I refuse to succumb to a Maginot mentality that assumes it's my responsibility to lock myself in my house, light up the yard with 5,000 watts, not have screwdrivers accessible in the side yard, plaster alarm stickers on every window, play a tape recording of a barking dog, have randomly programmed lights turning off and on, etc. etc. ad nauseum. While those might all be good ideas, the lack of one or all does not mean it's the homeowner's fault when someone breaks in.

[Jnich77]

So you just provided a potential robber with tools to break in, or just items which they can steal without you ever knowing. A storage shed can be locked down just a securely as your house. Start at the top of the list with home security and work your way down. Keeping all of your loose belongings under control and out of plain sight should be considered at the top of the list. End of story.

Spence

I see your point, and do agree in a way... buuuuuuuut... you shouldn't have to lock up everything at your house.. you should be able to leave things out... I mean.. its YOUR house!!!!! Its not the home owners fault that some dip wad wants to steal his stuff... really.. do you blame a beautiful woman for getting raped simply because she was attractive?

[Jonathan Hanson]

Spence, you're reminding me of the old "Don't make a good boy go bad" TV ads that implied it was a car owner's fault if he left his keys in the car and someone stole it.

So, how about those landscaping rocks?

[Superu]

But I think you're being optimistic in counting on the police to arrive it time to save you from a "strung-out rapist." At least in Tucson you would be.

Jonathan, this is a great point and one that each person probably should consider when determining what works best for them.

Where you live and the proximity of neighbors can have a big impact on these type of situations. For me, the police are generally at the door in less than 5 minutes and always show up with guns drawn when there is an alarm triggered. We also have great neighbors who are attentive and caring. Once had my Army Ranger neighbor come by because he saw the light in the driveway flashing on/off and thought we may be in distress. Turned out to be a bad photocell on the unit, but I very much appreciated his thoughtfulness in checking on us.

In our relatively quiet bedroom community, crime is infrequent so my primary lines of defense are perimeter security and monitoring, big and attentive dog, and a 12ga in a locked but accessible location should the need arise.

Simple extras like steel interior doors on bedrooms and bathrooms where you may need to fall back are often overlooked. It amazes me how people will think nothing of dropping $500 on a gun but balk at $150 for a solid door and frame for the bedroom!

If I lived somewhere with a much higher risk of break-in, I'd probably be inclined to add a biometric gun safe near the bed with a Glock 20 in it.

[spencyg]

the lack of one or all does not mean it's the homeowner's fault when someone breaks in.

Nope, you're absolutly right, but taking the correct steps to prevent somebody from even wanting to break in should be your first step. Continuing along with your list of things you shouldn't have to do in a perfect utopian society should also include locking your doors, leaving the keys in your truck, etc, but we all do this because we have to. We do this because there are different levels of criminals out there. Some criminals will only walk through an already-open door. Others will only try a doorknob to see if it is locked. Others will only pry on a door a little. Others own a lockpicking set. Then some will use a gun and blow the door right off its hinges. What kind of criminals are you trying to prevent? I suppose that is the real question. Your wife probably had a run-in with the door prying type of criminal....not the "blow the doors off the hinges with a gun" kind of criminal. Her just standing at the door telling the guy to go away would probably have been enough....the pointed handgun just drove the point home. I think I can safely say that in my part of the country and in my town, I'm dealing with the open door entering, doornob turning kind of criminal. I obviously have no grounds for commenting on Tuscon criminals....apologies.

Spence

[spencyg]

I see your point, and do agree in a way... buuuuuuuut... you shouldn't have to lock up everything at your house.. you should be able to leave things out... I mean.. its YOUR house!!!!!

This is absolutly true, but just because it is my house, in my neighborhood, doesn't mean that I feel comfortable leaving things out and available for passers by. Just because it is your right as a homeowner and a human to leave your things out around your property doesn't mean it is a good idea from a safety and security standpoint. This also applies to JH's comment on leaving the keys in your car. Should you be able to? Yes. Is it a good idea? No. If you remove an easy oppertunity from the equation, the outcome will be far different. To not cover these other bases before resorting to retaliatory violence puts you in a camp other than "responsible homeowner and family provider" in my ever so humble and often completely wrong opinion....

Spence

[Jonathan Hanson]

Your wife probably had a run-in with the door prying type of criminal....not the "blow the doors off the hinges with a gun" kind of criminal. Her just standing at the door telling the guy to go away would probably have been enough . . .

Spence, that's two uses of "probably" in two sentences dealing with how my wife should have dealt with someone trying to break into her home. So if she had just presented herself at the window, unarmed, and asked him to go away, he "probably" would have?

I think your assumptions of criminal mentality are dangerously naive. You've already suggested that this guy, after jumping our wall, opening the side gate, and going through our tools, would "probably" have left if he hadn't found a convenient tool for prying a door. If he'd gotten through the door - say, because Roseann was in the shower at the time - and found her in her robe unarmed, would he "probably" have left if she screamed?

This thread is about home security. One of the issues we've been neglecting is the opportunities we have to convince people such as our subject here that breaking into houses is a bad idea, and likely to lead to an early demise. One of the ways to do that is to meet attempted break-ins with decisive and threatening action, not mere shouts or flashing lights. Your door pryer will soon become a door kicker if he experiences nothing but blinking chandeliers and yelling homeowners on his excursions.

[spencyg]

I guess all I have to say is that I'm glad I don't live in Tuscon....best wishes in your attemps to defend your fortress against the masses.

Spence

[Jonathan Hanson]

It's Tucson. And I guess all I have to say is, good luck using sarcasm to defend your fortress against the masses.

[Superu]

Her just standing at the door telling the guy to go away would probably have been enough....the pointed handgun just drove the point home.

I would argue the pointed handgun tipped the playing field to her advantage. Police on the way, perp attempting to enter residence, appropriate defensive posture called for. The perp seeing an unarmed woman at the door would likely feel much less inclined to re-think his actions than if he were facing the barrel of a gun. I'm just sayin...:ylsmoke:

Woman looking through door.
http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/90288121.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=AA1747D0965B1B3DEE1C39FECCCEFEC58C44C8733BEE95AA C6E3E3024E2C1A7A

Woman looking through door with gun.

http://www.historiann.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/woman-gun.jpg

[spencyg]

My sarcasm and a healthy dose of common sense has proven very successful in keeping myself and my family safe.

Spence

[Jonathan Hanson]

Okay . . .

I'll tell Roseann that if she'd had more common sense, that incident wouldn't have happened.

Sorry, Spence - I'm not trying to pick on you. But if you think passive measures are all it takes to keep you safe, I think you're being extremely naive, it's that simple.

[spencyg]

...and if you think that just owning a gun makes you safe, than I suppose we're both in for a surprise.

I'll take my well secured house and a cell phone any day over a poorly secured house and a gun. My house ensures that for 99.9% of the potential incidents, the criminal will move on to an easier target whether I'm home or not. Your gun ensures lots of police, questions, courts, and potential harm to your family in the potential event of misuse...and this is only when you're home. When you're not home, that gun isn't doing anything but getting stolen and used against some other innocent (or not so innocent), or worse. You say potato, I say carrot. We won't agree and will just end up being offensive or offended.

This type of conversation keeps looping around and bouncing off different life perspectives and points of view. Nobody ends up with a changed mind and typically just ends in spiteful feelings. I'm not exactly sure why the moderators didn't keep this one in the trash can, as it has nothing to do with the life of a traveler and the entire purpose of Expo, off topic or otherwise.

We don't want to be at home anyway...we'd all rather be travelling!!

Spence

[Cackalak Han]

Well, I knew it would revert back to the whole gun issue. I will just say that there is no way to predict what a criminal mind will do. You have to remember that some have no sense of reasoning at all. Think of the shootings at high schools, the Amish girls murder, Virginia Tech, Trolley Square. None of those victims had any chance to reason with those lunatics. They screamed, though that they were in relatively safe places, but that didn't matter.

My whole point of this thread is to protect my family against those idiots. Petty thieves who want to steal my TV, jewlry, etc., I'm not that worried about. It's the mental, crazy, drugged up lunatics that got me thinking. I think all of you bring up good points. Make the premises less desireable (ie putting tools an equipment away), layer of security, and source of deadly force (gun). Thanks again for the inputs.

[BIGdaddy]

Well, I knew it would revert back to the whole gun issue. I will just say that there is no way to predict what a criminal mind will do. You have to remember that some have no sense of reasoning at all. Think of the shootings at high schools, the Amish girls murder, Virginia Tech, Trolley Square. None of those victims had any chance to reason with those lunatics. They screamed, though that they were in relatively safe places, but that didn't matter.

My whole point of this thread is to protect my family against those idiots. Petty thieves who want to steal my TV, jewlry, etc., I'm not that worried about. It's the mental, crazy, drugged up lunatics that got me thinking.

yup. and i think you can see that a lot of us think similarly

This thread is for your benefit and if you've taken it all in I'd say we'd probably do well to toss it.

Spense is right, it'll go round and round pulling more gunners and anti-gunners from the woodwork...

[Fergie]

When you're not home, that gun isn't doing anything but getting stolen and used against some other innocent (or not so innocent), or worse.
Spence

Spency,

For a good amount of people, that gun stays with them 100% of the time. For a good amount of people, guns that are not in use, and stored in the home, are secured in a very large, heavy, bolted down gun safe. And, most gun owners will register their serials with someone like an insurance agent, and if a theft happens, they report the serials to the police.

I won't comment on your views specifically, aside from saying that they are your's, I respect your right to have them, won't try to change your mind on them, and expect the same from you on mine. I don't criticize them either, and expect that as well.

Cackalack,

Once you have become proficient in target shooting with your gun, invest in a good defensive shooting class, something that cover close quarters shooting. Gunsite and Frontsite are two that are close to us here, you should have the equivalent in your area.

For any that are interested, read this aritcle:

On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs (http://www.killology.com/sheep_dog.htm)

[Jonathan Hanson]

Well, I knew it would revert back to the whole gun issue. I will just say that there is no way to predict what a criminal mind will do. You have to remember that some have no sense of reasoning at all. Think of the shootings at high schools, the Amish girls murder, Virginia Tech, Trolley Square. None of those victims had any chance to reason with those lunatics. They screamed, though that they were in relatively safe places, but that didn't matter.

My whole point of this thread is to protect my family against those idiots. Petty thieves who want to steal my TV, jewlry, etc., I'm not that worried about. It's the mental, crazy, drugged up lunatics that got me thinking. I think all of you bring up good points. Make the premises less desireable (ie putting tools an equipment away), layer of security, and source of deadly force (gun). Thanks again for the inputs.

You've obviously picked out the good advice from amongst the mere arguments. Your approach is a thoughtful one, which means you'll make the right decisions. Good luck.

[TACODOC]

I refuse to succumb to a Maginot mentality that assumes it's my responsibility to lock myself in my house, light up the yard with 5,000 watts, not have screwdrivers accessible in the side yard, plaster alarm stickers on every window, play a tape recording of a barking dog, have randomly programmed lights turning off and on, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

Maginot mentality... Good one! I like that analogy :clapsmile

I refuse to live in fear.

[goodtimes]

...
I'll take my well secured house and a cell phone any day over a poorly secured house and a gun. My house ensures that for 99.9% of the potential incidents, the criminal will move on to an easier target whether I'm home or not.
...
Spence

So let me ask, what happens when confronted with that .1%? I'm serious. I know what my solution is, but I'm curious what yours is. :)

You (anyone) take all the precautions. You lock it down. You have dogs. You have a cell phone with 9-1-1 set up on speed dial. You have security cameras, you have perimeter lighting and warning systems, you have bars on the windows, you have steel main doors behind steel security doors, you have an alarm system administered by a company that provides an armed response . . .

What do you do when that .1% comes through all of that. What do you do when your wife's screaming doesn't stop them, when your dogs don't deter them. What is your *last* line of defense?

That last line is where the firearms come into play. All that other stuff is great. You are absolutely correct in saying that it will deter a vast majority of opportunistic crack-heads and petty thieves, and if you can manage to deter them, everyone is better off -- I truly believe that.

But simply ignoring the fact that all those great ideas and prevention efforts will still fail to deter *every* person intent on doing you harm, is dangerous. It is dangerous to you, it is dangerous to your family.

I don't think anyone here is seriously advocating leaving the doors and windows standing open while hoping someone comes in so they are justified in shooting them. I don't think anyone (in their right mind) views lethal force as the first and only line of defense. But it is certainly an effective last line of defense.

I would rather have my girlfriend respond in the manner that Roseann did, than in a less assertive way. Roseann communicated to the would-be thief/possible rapist or murderer, in a very clear manner, that he was about to bring a screwdriver to a gunfight. She gave him the chance to reconsider his position, and he made the right choice. No one died. No one was injured. The gun did its job. Would a lesser weapon (knife, baseball bat, etc) have been as effective? Maybe. Maybe not.

But do you (anyone) want to take that chance? Remember, all the other measures have already failed, it is you (or your family) face to face with someone who has already demonstrated that they don't give a rats butt about the law. What is your last line of defense? Was it the cell phone call to 9-1-1 which police are still 3 minutes away from responding to? Was it the steel door that the criminal kicked in (because steel doors are commonly hung on wooden jams that provide no added protection)? Was it the dog that the criminal just killed on their way to your kids bedroom?

Reality check. The chances of being in that situation are probably better than a million to one (pulling that number out of the air). But the chance is still there. You can either ignore it, accept that you will be unprepared for it when/if it happens, or you can plan for it. The choice is yours. Everyone makes that choice for themselves. Not everyone is going to make the same choice, and there is nothing wrong with that. We all deal with things a little differently.

My choice involves a .45 acp. What does your choice involve?

[Superu]

I'll just add one thought here.

It's not always a single intruder. They sometimes work in pairs and that's where the firearm gives you a significant advantage over any other hand held combat weapon.

Some other points to consider: Does your wife shoot? Is she comfortable handling/firing guns? Can she handle the kick of a 12ga or is a 20ga or .410 a better choice? Not to try to spook you, but you may not always be home if a situation arises and no weapon is going to do any good if she is afraid, unwilling or unable to use it.

Also, a good pump action is generally considered to be extremely reliable, but a solid auto loader like a 930 SPX takes even less effort to get off the second shot if it's needed and they've proven to be very reliable.

[spencyg]

What do you do when that .1% comes through all of that.

I live in Maine. Did I mention that earlier?

My wife is incredably anti-gun, so this is all a moot discussion for my household anyway.

That being the case, my opinions are my opinions...not necessarily those of even my wife, not to mention my brother who is in the marines, or my dad who is an avid hunter.

That being said, I am unwilling to allow the fear of a million-to-one situation dictate the way I live my life or control my decisions. Not to sidetrack too much, but this factor of fear is what our society seems to be driven by. Fear of losing your job. Fear of a terrorist attack. Fear of bears. Fear of child abduction. God damn it people...the world is really not that bad of a place. Sure, you can PUT yourself in a bad position by not taking the correct precautions, but for bad things to just happen by chance isn't something that has ever happened to me or anybody I know. Maybe this is just due to my physical location. If that's the case, then all the more reason to live where I live.

Fear will tear you apart. If you're scared about somebody breaking into your house during the night, than you're probably scared about taking a walk at night to see the stars. If you REALLY live in a place as dangerous as some people here are suggesting, than move! There are still safe places in the country which still allows a good quality of living without being worried about who is going to try and break into your house, rape your wife, and steal your kids.

If on the other hand you're coming up with all of these stories and hypothetical situations just to justify owning a gun for the sole purpose of eventually having to blow somebody's brains out....well....

I have called the police once at my new house due to an incessantly barking dog across the street at 2:00 in the morning. They were there in 2 minutes. I accidently triggered a police call when I inadvertantly dialed 911 by accident when I lived up north.....6 miles out of town. The police were there in 4 minutes.

Between the locks, the lights, the dog, and a baseball bat, I've got 2 minutes of time.

-Good house security
-Cell Phone

It is all I'll ever have.

Spence

[Superu]

Good points Spence.

No need for cussing, but valid points nonetheless regarding the climate of fear in which many of us find ourselves.

24 hr news channels that report every bad thing that happens anywhere in the world at any hour of the day just contribute to the paranoia that has gripped this nation.

Bad things happen. Criminals are out there. Odds are that most of us will never encounter them. And that's a good thing.

Some people feel better with the belief that they've done everything within their control to safeguard themselves and their loved ones. And for some people that includes owning firearms. Doesn't make them wrong or right, just as it doesn't make the person who chooses not to own them wrong or right.

It's just a matter of personal preference and I for one am glad we have the ability to make that choice. Would it be nice to have more options? Sure, but in my state it's illegal to own a stun gun. I can have a shotgun, pistol, revolver or rifle and use it to defend myself, but I can't have a stun gun for the same purpose! Talk about some dumb-@ss legislation. (I'm working on getting that one changed by the way as I believe I should have the right to own a stun gun if I choose.)

I've been relieved to see the overall tone of this thread has remained civil and hasn't needed to be closed down like others before it. Thanks to all who've contributed for keeping it civil. ExPo rocks! :26_7_2:

[kjp1969]

That being said, I am unwilling to allow the fear of a million-to-one situation dictate the way I live my life or control my decisions. Not to sidetrack too much, but this factor of fear is what our society seems to be driven by. Fear of losing your job. Fear of a terrorist attack. Fear of bears. Fear of child abduction. God damn it people...the world is really not that bad of a place.

***

Fear will tear you apart. If you're scared about somebody breaking into your house during the night, than you're probably scared about taking a walk at night to see the stars. If you REALLY live in a place as dangerous as some people here are suggesting, than move! There are still safe places in the country which still allows a good quality of living without being worried about who is going to try and break into your house, rape your wife, and steal your kids.


Wonderful summary of the world we live in and the state of society. I agree with the quoted portion completely.

But its no contradiction to be as level headed and realistic as you are and still have a coupla guns, just in case. :ylsmoke:

[goodtimes]

I live in Maine. Did I mention that earlier?

Doesn't matter where you live. Crime happens. Being prepared in the off chance that it happens to you *can* be the difference between life and death.




That being said, I am unwilling to allow the fear of a million-to-one situation dictate the way I live my life or control my decisions. Not to sidetrack too much, but this factor of fear is what our society seems to be driven by.

You shouldn't. The chances are low. Very low. That doesn't change the fact that bad things happen to good people. Don't confuse preparation with fear.


Sure, you can PUT yourself in a bad position by not taking the correct precautions, but for bad things to just happen by chance isn't something that has ever happened to me or anybody I know.

Consider yourself lucky. Bad things happen to people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Last week, a young woman went to work in a secure facility operated by Yale. By all accounts, it was a 'safe' building, in a 'safe' area operated by a 'safe' organization. If you follow the news at all, you already know she died at the hands of someone else inside the safe building. Did she "put" herself there? If by "put", you mean going to work...yes. What about the kids who died at the hands of the criminals at Columbine? Did they put themselves there? Or did were they in the wrong spot at the wrong time?




If on the other hand you're coming up with all of these stories and hypothetical situations just to justify owning a gun for the sole purpose of eventually having to blow somebody's brains out....well....

No one is trying to justify "blowing someones brains out". The discussion is about keeping yourself and your loved ones alive. If someone walks through my lighted yard, gets through my steel security door or through my closed and locked windows, gets past my pit bull, and poses a threat to the life or safety of someone in my house, I don't plan on asking him to please wait until the police arrive. I hope that they look at my house and decide that it doesn't look like a good target (due to lighting, proximity to other houses, dog, steel doors, locked windows, etc), and move on. Barring that, I'm going to hope that the police arrive and put a stop to the situation long before I am forced to defend myself. But if they don't, then I will do what I have to do to protect myself and any guests in my house.




Between the locks, the lights, the dog, and a baseball bat, I've got 2 minutes of time.

I certainly hope so. As you stated, that will stop 99.9% of the miscreants. Hopefully the police are faster than the other .1%.




-Good house security
-Cell Phone

It is all I'll ever have.


Draw the line where you feel it is appropriate -- after all, it *is* your decision, right? I hope you never have to deal with a thug crossing that line (where ever you draw it). :)

[02TahoeMD]

Just got caught up on the past couple days' worth of posts.....figured I would weigh in again.

First, and foremost, major kudos to Roseann for the way she handled the attempted B&E. Had the intruder stupidly continued to attempt his entry, I have no doubt she would have acquitted herself well and society had been rid of another dreg. And I would have said good riddance.

Second, you absolutely and positively can not rely upon police response to save you. There has even been a supreme court decision dictating that the police do not have to protect you, if they do not arrive in time to prevent you from coming to some gruesome, unfortunate demise, they are not liable.

I heard a talk show host here in MD once compare police response thusly:

Call Dominoes, order a pizza for delivery. Call the police for a call for service.

See who gets there first. I think you will be eating before you see a cruiser on your street.

Here in my county, which ranges from an cramped city like environment all the way up to rural county roads that dont have pavement or bridges over streams, response time to an emergency call for service can range from 5 minutes to 30 minutes.

When vermin are at your door, that is a long, long time.

Just an aside, seeing yet another stupid, moronic Brinks Security service commercial on TV while I am writing this. For those of you thinking that (a) a suspect will be immediately frightened by a sounding alarm (b) that Brinks will call you within seconds of an alarm being sounded (c) that the police will show up faster because Brinks dispatched them (see point above) - then you are incredibly naive. Horribly annoying commercials.

Third observation - I saw a suspect taken down with buckshot once. Definitive "K5" zone shot, all 8 pellets perfectly placed in the K5, and he was an active fighter after being hit. Had he not been removed from his firearm, I have no doubt he would have continued to dispense lead at us. It took him a while to expire, and up til just a couple minutes left he remained violently active, fighting with the medics.

If you ever are forced to defend yourself, be prepared to have to keep shooting even if the vermin goes down. Do not trust them to be down and out of action.

Fourth observation - for those that rely on shotguns for hunting and/or defense, look into getting a Knoxx Stock (http://www.knoxx.com/) for it. These things work great and absorb recoil so well that you can shoot buckshot and slugs through your gun all day long with no sore shoulder. Love mine.

[cruiseroutfit]

How come everyone assumes that you want to be prepared out of 'fear'. I'm not in 'fear' of getting stuck, but I have a winch. I'm not in 'fear' of a home invasion, gut I have guns. I'm not living in 'fear' of a disaster yet I have food storage. I'm not in 'fear' of a earthquake yet I have insurance. Fear has not inspired my preperation to mitigate the damages of various situations... rather my inspiration to "Be Prepared" has. Those that bill preperation off as 'fear' are likely just afraid of having to be prepared. I envision these guys pounding their chests and make fun of the guys that are 'afraid of the dark' and brought flashlights along on a camping trip. Fail to prepare, prepare to fail. Put your machismo aside and take it for face value rather than write it off as some fear induced paranoia which it is not.

Oh and until I consulted the Oracle (google) I would have assumed old Maine was like heaven the way ol' spency describes it. Course then I would have to move away from God's country and live in Maine :D BTW spency, your little heaven is #32 in rapes though unremittingly low in other areas of crime.

[SunTzuNephew]

I'm not in fear of my home burning down, but I both practice fire safety, and have fire extinguishers and smoke detectors.

Likewise, I don't live in fear of a home invasion, but I have security devices that include locks, lights, and firearms - and the training to use them.

I don't plan on dying any time soon but I have life insurance.

Smoke detectors, fire extinguishers, locks, and firearms are just other forms of insurance.

[spencyg]

BTW spency, your little heaven is #32 in rapes though unremittingly low in other areas of crime.

I can quite comfortably live with these numbers. As always Kurt, you are a wealth of information :)

Spence

[Jonathan Hanson]

I was going to chime in on the fallacy that it's fear that drives preparedness, but Kurt and several others took care of it.

Let's also keep in mind that in the vast majority of self-defense situations, the mere presence of the firearm is enough to control the situation, as happened with Roseann.

Cops don't carry sidearms to kill people; they carry them to control hostile situations. Only rarely is it necessary to fire the weapon. The same holds true for home defense. But certainly you need to be prepared to fire if the necessity arises. If you are not, as is the case with Spence, then obviously firearms are not the right answer for your home.

And . . . Brian. "Pit Bull?" Surely you were speaking theoretically, and not referring to that bundle of joy-to-the-world that is Cherokee?

[Nullifier]

Well I keep a Smith and Wesson .38 special w 4" barrel. It was my grand dads gun and if it was good enough for him for 50 years it's good enough for me. All the others are locked up. Well except for my wife's. She has a little Beretta .25 and knows how to use it lol!

Hope we never have to use them on somebody but if we do I will tell you now we will not be surprised with the way criminals are today.

[Cackalak Han]

Real World....Today.

My 19 year old son finally came back home after 7 months away. I had no idea where he was or if he was alive! I was getting No Sleep! He just decided to do this temporary teen run away thing. He would not respond to my calls. The only way I knew if he was alive is if I saw that he logged on to his MySpace. Thank God he Finally came Home!

He is back to living in my home now. Today, I took him out for lunch. While we were eating, he started getting threatening text messages. It seems he owes some punks money. They are now threatening to come over to "Dads House" to Fix him....!

I've been wanting a 12 Gauge home security shot gun for a long time. I stopped by Big 5 today to look at what they have. And I find that the big hold up on immediate security for your home is.... the $25 background check, 10 day waiting period! A lot of good that will do me right now! So Think Ahead!

So for now it's going to have to be all about perfect 9mm placement! And a quick 911 call first. I seriously hope I don't have to hurt anybody! I don't even want to incure the cost of my attorney to defend myself from the attack!

My Browning Hi Power is loaded and ready all the time anyway.

I envy you Arizona dudes! Maybe it's time for me to just go get my Arizona Drivers License and pick up the weapons of my choice!

Can you imagine how I am feeling in my own home right now as I type this?


Yikes. I hope the best for you and your son, and hopefully the texts are just threats and nothing more.

Side note: Another reason why I'll visit California, but never live there. Several years ago, I went to get my Rem 870. Few bucks and 15 minutes later, I was out the door with my shotgun. It's pretty much the same deal with the .357 coming in.

[Mc Taco]

Mark, I'm glad to hear he is home. Be safe.

[Superu]

Talk about machismo! "I'm not afraid, I'm prepared." The man without fear is a dangerous man and I would not want him by my side.


Fear can be described with different terms in relation to the degree of fear that is experienced. It varies from mild caution to extreme phobia and paranoia. Fear is related to a number of additional cognitive and emotional states including worry, anxiety, terror, horror, panic, and dread.

Just because someone has a healthy dose of fear in their mind, does not take away from the courage and bravery they may exhibit in a stress situation. IMHO, fear of the unknown can help one to forge a plan of preparedness, not detract from it.

Interesting to see how quickly this conversation turned when people's manhood seemed threatened. It's okay to be afraid sometimes, it's when we allow that fear to overwhelm us that we run into trouble. I think some of the most courageous people I've encountered on this forum have been those who've expressed their doubts, fears and concerns and sought out the help and guidance of others in spite of how appearing afraid may have made them look to someone else. You guys are way better than this kind of talk.

:coffee:

[DH2002]

If you have no fear why are you prepared. The point of prepardness is to help deal with the fear of a possible situation.

[computeruser]

For what it's worth, I had NO idea of how the criminal and drug-addled underclass operated and the risks they present to the rest of us until I started working with them in a professional capacity. I didn't grow up in or around that community, so I really knew little of it except what I saw on TV. I do know about it now, and what I learned and have seen has changed my perspective profoundly, even before the work-related death threats and occasional low-grade stalking started.

The truth is that wit and prevention will not protect you 100% of the time. Neither will keeping your home/office security well-layered, or having a pistol stuffed in a pricey horsehide holster. But ultimately, it's like safe sex - condom + the pill decreases the risk of unwanted side-effects of intercourse to a greater degree than either method alone.

Having had to resolve a situation with a gun a couple times before I reached 30 years of age, I can assure you that you cannot predict everything - when and how problems will occur, how they will resolve themselves, the effect of your wit and communication skills - and I can also assure you that trouble pops up in the most unexpected of places.

There are obvious extremes, and they can be found on both ends of the guns/no-guns spectrum. Find what you're comfortable with for yourself and your family, and be positive and supportive of others, even where their personal choices are different from yours. Ultimately, those of us who are among the "good people" need to look out for each other just a bit more than we do.

[spencyg]

He is back to living in my home now. Today, I took him out for lunch. While we were eating, he started getting threatening text messages. It seems he owes some punks money. They are now threatening to come over to "Dads House" to Fix him....!
http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/images/051003m.jpg

.

Are you serious?? You would considering buying a gun to ward off people whom your son owes money?? How about this idea? Give your son the money to pay them back, dope slap him for borrowing money from thugs, and move on with life! Man...I guess I have less in common with people on ExPo than I thought....

[Jonathan Hanson]

If you have no fear why are you prepared. The point of prepardness is to help deal with the fear of a possible situation.

It's not "fear." Fear will most certainly be a factor if and when I hear glass breaking in the middle of the night - as someone mentioned, it would be stupid not to be afraid then. But fear plays no part in preparedness; that's simply common sense and the acceptance that bad things can happen. I don't "fear" drowning when I'm sea kayaking, but I always wear a PFD. I don't "fear" having a drunk driver sideswipe me every time I drive to town, but you won't see me without a seat belt.

Fear is supposed to be a momentary emotion, not a way of life.

[Superu]

Find what you're comfortable with for yourself and your family, and be positive and supportive of others, even where their personal choices are different from yours.

Amen to that. :ylsmoke:

[TACODOC]

Mark, I'm glad to hear he is home. Be safe.

X2

That is good news indeed Mark! Give a holler if you need any help!

[TACODOC]

Are you serious?? You would considering buying a gun to ward off people whom your son owes money?? How about this idea? Give your son the money to pay them back, dope slap him for borrowing money from thugs, and move on with life! Man...I guess I have less in common with people on ExPo than I thought....

You don't fully understand Marks situation, or the particulars of his sons "friends"...

I totally understand his reasoning.

[awalter]

And . . . Brian. "Pit Bull?" Surely you were speaking theoretically, and not referring to that bundle of joy-to-the-world that is Cherokee?

Brian is probably referring to breaking the felon's legs with Chrokee's wagging tail.:D:shakin:

Al

[DarinM]

I was thinking either that or just banking on the chance that they're allergic to dog slobber... :drool:


Brian is probably referring to breaking the felon's legs with Chrokee's wagging tail.:D:shakin:

Al

[BIGdaddy]

:lurk:

[Mayne]

I've been waiting for the old "sound of the pump action scaring them off" to come around.

There are two things that racking your gun may do in the situations described.

One is a possibility.

The other is a certainty.

One: It may scare off the intruder who is not looking to get shot. This assumes he is not on crack, meth, or who knows what else.

Two: It will immediately tell the intruder where you are.

Quickly achieving the two least likely outcomes you would want in this situation. Giving up your advantage of surprise and enabling him to act in a hostile manner towards your position.

They'll have a hard time hearing it over the 110lb German Shepard and 50lb Malinios. I have no doubts about the dogs, as they do not have second thoughts, or remorse. I use the gun as a final out. I don't want to shoot my dogs either. If the intruder over comes the dogs, that person is going to die. No if ands or buts. They will kill me, and I will not let that happen.

[Mayne]

It's often believed that with a shotgun you take the requirement to aim out of the picture. I agree a shotgun is more forgiving than a handgun in this respect, and certainly don't take anything away from those that choose a shotgun over a handgun as a HD weapon. However, I think you'll find that at the typical distances for a home/self defense encounter you do need to aim the shotgun. You are probably looking at a 4-6" pattern, so it is possible to miss your intended target.

Agreed, but in a 5 to 6 foot hallway, your odd go up regardless of what you shoot. I'd just prefer lots of .32cal bbs going down range, then say 1 .45cal slug. Anyway you look at it, it equals no fun. I've been in the situation where I've waited for the breaking in to happen, (it was in progress) and luckily it didn't. I was younger by far, but I remember the nerves and tunnel vision. I shook for 12 hrs after that. I just really want the cards stacked on my side in that gamble, so I'll take the pump gun. (and the dogs)

Mayne

[goodtimes]

And . . . Brian. "Pit Bull?" Surely you were speaking theoretically, and not referring to that bundle of joy-to-the-world that is Cherokee?




Brian is probably referring to breaking the felon's legs with Chrokee's wagging tail.:D:shakin:



I was thinking either that or just banking on the chance that they're allergic to dog slobber... :drool:

Hey now! Cherokee can be one mean SOB. I told her that anyone who comes through the door without my permission is the person who ate her last pig ear. And let me tell you, when someone f**ks with her pig ears, it gets ugly.

But even if that does fail...she can still break their legs and drown them in slobber...:snorkel:

[Cackalak Han]

Agreed, but in a 5 to 6 foot hallway, your odd go up regardless of what you shoot. I'd just prefer lots of .32cal bbs going down range, then say 1 .45cal slug. Anyway you look at it, it equals no fun. I've been in the situation where I've waited for the breaking in to happen, (it was in progress) and luckily it didn't. I was younger by far, but I remember the nerves and tunnel vision. I shook for 12 hrs after that. I just really want the cards stacked on my side in that gamble, so I'll take the pump gun. (and the dogs)

Mayne

Maybe it's because I've had my shotgun for a long time, but I feel better with it than a pistol. Perhaps with more practice time with the revolver, I'll feel more comfortable.

Also, speaking of shotguns, I am thinking of picking up another barrel for my 870 (pref used), and cutting it down to 18.5" (legal length is 18"). I'll also have to make sure the overall length is over 26". But I think it would be nice to have a shorter shotgun in those nerve-wracking, tunnel vision situations. I've heard about people that miss with a pistol from a very short distance.

[Jonathan Hanson]

I've heard about people that miss with a pistol from a very short distance.

I read about an incident in New York City ages ago. Cab drivers were being robbed at gunpoint, so the NYPD put some undercover officers in cabs. Sure enough, one of them found a revolver pointed at him from the back seat. The cop drew his own .38, and both blokes emptied their weapons at each other from a distance of two feet. Clean misses, every shot.

The cop subdued the guy by jumping into the back seat and beating him to a pulp.

[BIGdaddy]

total siegway....but this is why I like movies like "open range" or "the assassination of jesse james by the coward robert ford."

most of the the shots fired are misses and the hits are survived usually. Very true most of the time.

[grouch]

The cop subdued the guy by jumping into the back seat and beating him to a pulp.
That sounds like pulp fiction to me :sombrero:

[SunTzuNephew]

total siegway....but this is why I like movies like "open range" or "the assassination of jesse james by the coward robert ford."

most of the the shots fired are misses and the hits are survived usually. Very true most of the time.


Or TV's A-Team? A (alleged) Special Forces A-Team, firing a minimum of 10,000 rounds per episode, and not ONCE actually hitting anyone?

[goodtimes]

Or TV's A-Team? A (alleged) Special Forces A-Team, firing a minimum of 10,000 rounds per episode, and not ONCE actually hitting anyone?

Even when I was a kid, I found that rather ironic. :elkgrin:

[Mc Taco]

Or TV's A-Team? A (alleged) Special Forces A-Team, firing a minimum of 10,000 rounds per episode, and not ONCE actually hitting anyone?

I actually find that kind of weapons portrayal more dangerous to the idea of gun safety than those where the hero dispatches the villain with one shot. 1000's of rounds sprayed with out care and no casualties, or one shot at close range with a life taken. One with no consequences, and the other with.

On another note, how can a LEO fire at a bad guy and miss and some dumb kid playing with a gun hit his friend and kill him. Please don't jump down my throat as if I think the Police are terrible shots. Not my point. None of my paper targets has ever fired back at me, or even said a disparaging word towards me. My point is "fate" seems to be a cruel mistress sometimes.

[TOTJ]

I have a under bed gunsafe for my Sig. I can access my hand gun in just a few seconds by pushing a 4 button code to open it. I have no fear that
my kids could get to it.
Also any time one of my kids wants to see it or go target shooting we do.
There is no curocity that way

[02TahoeMD]

On another note, how can a LEO fire at a bad guy and miss and some dumb kid playing with a gun hit his friend and kill him. Please don't jump down my throat as if I think the Police are terrible shots. Not my point. None of my paper targets has ever fired back at me, or even said a disparaging word towards me. My point is "fate" seems to be a cruel mistress sometimes.

Yes, most police are mediocre shots. Most only shoot on their annual qualifications, no more.

That said, a guy that practices regularly and scores high 90's everytime can still miss when the stuff hits the fan, and one on the opposite end of the spectrum who barely passes quals may end up winning that confrontation easily. You just never know until you "see the elephant" as the saying used to go.

..... I have seen thugs hit with multiple .45s walk into an ER while an officer gets hit with a .22 and dies.....

Not only is fate a cruel mistress, but Mr Murphy is a guy I would very much like to have a few words with.

[Jonathan Hanson]

Actually, with no offense at all to our law enforcement members, it's a complete misconception that police officers are all weapons experts. They pass a basic course, then qualify at more-or-less yearly intervals. That's it. Any further interest is up to them, and many have no interest at all. At least that's the way it is with the TPD according to many officers with whom I've spoken.

Of course, many also take it very seriously and make sure on their own that their training is up to snuff. And there are special units for which a high level of weapons skill is required.

[Superu]

Even when I was a kid, I found that rather ironic. :elkgrin:

Almost as annoying as the tire squealing sound from those Duke boys on dirt!!!:Wow1:

[Every Miles A Memory]

a guy that practices regularly and scores high 90's everytime can still miss when the stuff hits the fan, and one on the opposite end of the spectrum who barely passes quals may end up winning that confrontation easily. You just never know until you "see the elephant" as the saying used to go.

I took an advanced training course where we were in Actual Drill type of shooting rooms with pop-up targets with background noise, lights flashing...etc

Amazing how much harder it is to draw your weapon and actually hit the target when there is multiple things going on around you that are all trying to distract you.

I can empty a magazine with double taps in the center ring of a target all day long at the range, but was amazed at the amount of misses I was getting when the distractions were put into the equation

I cant imagine when the adrenaline and the thought of another REAL gun pointed back at you how much this would change the outcome of even the best target shooters.

Personally, I'd take the shotgun anyday over the pistol

[Cackalak Han]

Just picked up my GP100 today. Can't wait to shoot it!! Also saw a flyer for a tactics class, which I will probably take.

Side note: There was NO ammo in the store!!! (for the .357) They had a couple bulk boxes (250 rounds) of .38sp, but none of .357 period. I was very surprised. So for right now, I have a 5lb hunk of metal in a box. :D

[BIGdaddy]

buy .38spl whenever you can. I'd have at least 10-15 boxes on hand, If i were you, simply to have in case there's another hike in raw material costs or another "ammo-grab" like we had earlier in the year.

don't think that .38spl won't do the job. It will! .357 is just a monster...:D congrats...

[Cackalak Han]

Thanks. I'm definitely stocking up on ammo. Both .38sp and .357mag. Can't believe nobody's got plenty in stock.

[Fergie]

Cabelas.

[BIGdaddy]

Cabelas.

x2

[SunTzuNephew]

Thanks. I'm definitely stocking up on ammo. Both .38sp and .357mag. Can't believe nobody's got plenty in stock.

Ammo has been in short supply for more than a year. About 10 months ago it has been almost impossible to get, and prices through the roof. The availability is starting to improve now, but the prices are still pretty high.

FWIW my personal plan with .357 revolvers is to shoot .38 specials for practice, and whatever .357 mag +P+ for serious work. You won't notice the difference in a life or death situation.

[Cackalak Han]

Actually, Cabela's is running very very low, too.

SunTzu - Yes, that is what I planned to do. Save the more expensive .357 for actual use, .38sp for plinking/target shooting.

[BIGdaddy]

Actually, Cabela's is running very very low, too.

SunTzu - Yes, that is what I planned to do. Save the more expensive .357 for actual use, .38sp for plinking/target shooting.

This might not be the best plan...point of aim/impact will be different with .38 and .357


A lot of the training schools will tell you that its very important to train with what you will defend yourself with, that way you'll have muscle memory when it comes down to a fight or flight situation..

if you train with .38, and then load it up with .357 at home, you're setting yourself up for failure. If you we're say, going on a black bear or deer hunt with the revolver, I'd be the same deal. You'd want to put the appropriate amount of rounds through the gun to get accustomed to the blast, flame, recoil, etc. associated with the magnum round.

. 38spl is a "pop" in comparison.

now, getting to know how to load/unload/fire/clear jams, etc...is a different story. you wouldn't be concerned with where the round goes at all. either round would work, or even snapcaps(training rounds) or an empty gun...

oh, and just fyi...it is absolutely fine to dryfire your gp100. just make sure you've still got it pointed in a safe direction and that you do it in a room separate from your ammo...be VERY careful. Lots of people have holes in their wall from "being sure" it was empty. Just go to the range and look up and see all the holes in the walls/roofs from people who were "sure" haha...

[Fergie]

To reiterate...

A target/plinking load in a .38spl is WWWAAAAYYYY different than a hot self-defense .357 load.

Night and day don't do the difference justice, even with a revolver the size of the GP100.

[SunTzuNephew]

To reiterate...

A target/plinking load in a .38spl is WWWAAAAYYYY different than a hot self-defense .357 load.

Night and day don't do the difference justice, even with a revolver the size of the GP100.


Not saying they aren't. However, in a life or death situation the difference isn't noticeable.

[Cackalak Han]

Thanks for the tip. I guess I'll be stocking up on both calibers. :D

[kjp1969]

My local PD uses .45 Federal Hydra-Shoks exclusively, for practice, qualifying and daily carry. Kinda weird that they would use such a hot and expensive round for target practice, but the range master explained that they didn't want any "surprises" for his guys and girls when out in the field.

[Nadir_E]

Lots of good points in this thread.

Allow me to expand on Fergie's earlier post about getting trained. Simply stated, if you do not seek proper training, you are putting yourself, your family, and your neighbors at risk if you choose to own a firearm. Sure your [Dad / Uncle / Whatever] taught you how to line up sights and blow up soda cans with the ol' .45, but that doesn't really cut it.

You wouldn't believe the kind of scary BS I've seen at local firearm ranges and the even scarier stuff out on public land. By the same token, if some people's knowledge of firearms and their use is so weak, imagine what their understanding of self defense laws must be like! A basic defensive pistol (or shotgun, or tactical rifle) class is essential to gun ownership. The "plinking" mentality is fun - but don't mistake it for being any more than that.

There are tons of schools out there with reputable instructors who will both cover the physical side of your confrontation as well as the legal side (at least as important).

Here are a few direct links:

Tactical Response (http://www.tacticalresponse.com/)
Lethal Force Institute (http://www.ayoob.com/LFIschedule.html)
LMS Defense (http://www.lmsdefense.com/lms/)
Gunsite Academy (http://www.gunsite.com/index.html)
Suarez International (http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/)
International Tactical Training Seminars (http://www.internationaltactical.com/index.asp)

Here's a list of over 200 others here. (http://www.martialartsresource.com/firearms.htm)

Most of these companies conduct training over a wide area or even internationally. Many will even be willing to come to your town and conduct a private class if you can arrange a class of ten or more people. It's up to you to do some research on the school/instructor you're considering - just like anything else, there's both gold and fool's gold out there.

Another important point in this regard - just as you don't run the same 4x trail over and over again, don't go to the same school over and over again. Seek to gain a different perspective and complimentary skills by trying more than one.

Further, if you learn how to make holes in other people, you should learn how to patch them up, too, otherwise, you have to ask yourself if the whole "gun thing" is really about being "manly" and not about being capable. An instructor of mine once said that you're much more likely to be a hero by using first-responder skills than you ever will be by using your shooting prowess. Take (or re-take) a good first aid class (including CPR cert) at your earliest opportunity.

Finally, on the subject of fear - pick up Gavin de Becker's The Gift of Fear: and other survival signals that protect us from violence (http://www.amazon.com/Gift-Fear-Gavin-Becker/dp/0440508835/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1253634985&sr=8-1). It could use a thread all its own, but suffice it to say that after finishing the book, I immediately bought copies for family, friends, and business partners. The bit on the back begins with, "True fear is a gift. Unwarranted fear is a curse. Learn how to tell the difference." You need this book.

Signing off with my favorite movie quote: "There's no such thing as 'tough.' There's 'trained' and 'un-trained' - which are you?" - Man on Fire

-N

[Nadir_E]

...On another note, how can a LEO fire at a bad guy and miss and some dumb kid playing with a gun hit his friend and kill him. Please don't jump down my throat as if I think the Police are terrible shots. Not my point. None of my paper targets has ever fired back at me, or even said a disparaging word towards me. My point is "fate" seems to be a cruel mistress sometimes.

It's not fate - it's adrenaline. In the case of the kids fooling around, much less adrenaline coursing through their system - in the case of a cop in a gun fight, tons of it. The net effect is a loss of fine motor control which means much less accuracy with the weapon. You should train for and expect this.

My personal experience was in a climbing accident -a friend fell about 18 feet down a cliff-face. I rappelled down to him (don't even recall doing it - I just found myself at his feet). I yelled to some other friends to hoof it to a nearby hotel to call for help (we were in Yosemite). Then I went to cut him out of his rig and realized my hands were trembling a great deal and realized, "Oh, that's adrenaline."

A friend of mine who used to conduct bodyguard training for the team protecting the general running the 2nd Armored Division in Europe back in the 80's would have his guys sprint 200 meters and then do 25 push-up's and then immediately address the target - hearts racing and hands shaking. Very realistic physical effects.

-N

[TACODOC]

You can never have too much training.

I was able to attend a course hosted by the Gunsite crew at Camp Pendleton courtesy of the USMC. Great stuff and I highly recommend them.

.02

[BIGdaddy]

You can never have too much training.

I was able to attend a course hosted by the Gunsite crew at Camp Pendleton courtesy of the USMC. Great stuff and I highly recommend them.

.02

Is gunsite the outfit that Jeff Cooper was affiliated with? (started?)

[TACODOC]

Is gunsite the outfit that Jeff Cooper was affiliated with? (started?)

Yes. He started it as the American Pistol Institute in 1976, not sure when it became "Gunsite".

[SunTzuNephew]

Yes. He started it as the American Pistol Institute in 1976, not sure when it became "Gunsite".

I attended in 1982 in Arizona...it was Gunsite then.

[Martinjmpr]

Not saying they aren't. However, in a life or death situation the difference isn't noticeable.

Not only that, at the range you'd be using a self defense handgun (probably less than 20 feet) the difference in point of impact would be almost impossible to measure.

.38 should work fine for practice. Cheap to shoot, especially if you reload.

Nice thing about a DA revolver is you can use the "blank-and-ball" method to see if you are flinching when you shoot. ;)

[Mr. Leary]

I have seen a general lack of training related preparation in this thread.

My advise would be to invite some good friends over, and do OpFors in your house. These scenarios will quickly show you the weak and strong areas of your castle, and allow you to come up with a plan that will better exploit your advantages while trying to defend your family while half asleep. It may seem like overkill, but "practice makes better." After you have rehearsed and discussed these scenarios with your (hopefully knowledgeable friends) your reaction to a break in should be much more automatic. One of the biggest problems you can face in a break in situation is not knowing what to do...

Have yourself or freinds try to get into your house one day... it will probably be easier than you are comfortable with. Before you start loading up every weapon in your arsenal, you should focus on keeping the scary scenarios from happening in the first place. Just my opinion.

.... and yes... I have prepared in the above way... had a close call... came out on top.... and he didn't die, due to my mercy.... and I can sleep well every night.

[Cackalak Han]

Finally got some ammo. .357 110 gr. JHP. It's the only thing I could find. No .38's anywhere.

Thanks for the comments. Spoke to the instructor today. The class will go over much of these break-in type situations, so I'm hoping for some good training.

[Nadir_E]

Good on you for investing in the training, Cackalak Han. Get that first aid /trauma training next!

-N

[Cackalak Han]

Yeah, I know the local FD has an EMT training coming up soon. Will definitely take it. Been meaning to for a while now.

[dzzz]

I read about an incident in New York City ages ago. Cab drivers were being robbed at gunpoint, so the NYPD put some undercover officers in cabs. Sure enough, one of them found a revolver pointed at him from the back seat. The cop drew his own .38, and both blokes emptied their weapons at each other from a distance of two feet. Clean misses, every shot.

The cop subdued the guy by jumping into the back seat and beating him to a pulp.

Apparently even most well trained law enforcement just spray bullets when under stress. That's one reason why its important to be smart about finding ways to not point a gun.

When I looked at defending from aggressive bears it became clear that a good bear spray was better than a hand gun. With a handgun it probably needs to be a magnum. So a revolver. A .44 would be best, but I wouldn't shoot enough to stay proficient. So I would choose a 357. When do I start shooting at a grizzly that's acting aggressive? 99% of the time he's not going to attack. 9 out of ten charges are bluffs.

With bear spray a "wall" of pain can be shot out about 20 feet as the bear charges. It doesn't take accuracy, and it doesn't require figuring out what the bear is really doing.

Did you read about the guy last week who shot the burglary who turned out to be his fiance? Probably should have gone for the alarm system instead of a gun.

[Cackalak Han]

Sad, sad story. Should've gotten an alarm system OR some proper tactics/HD courses? My friend sleeps with his 40, loaded, chambered. I pray he doesn't end up making the same mistake.

http://www2.wjbf.com/jbf/news/national/article/florida_man_shoots_fiance_by_accident/30556/

As far as bears, I've heard both sides. Some say that spray is the best. Others say the spray is not going to work all the time, either, and just make the bear madder. And if the bear charges from 20ft, and the spray doesn't work (or a gun), you won't have time to do much else... I think I'd rather have my gun to at least have a little bit of chance before I'm completely devoured.

[dzzz]

I'm in favor of both. With spray first. I don't believe spray can make the situation worse. I think the bear is mad anyway, and the spray missed his eyes. Nice thing about spray is that its effect is independent of animal size.

People actually talk about needing to hit a large grizzlies nervous system with a hand gun to stop him. A single action revolver probably allows one accurate shot in a complex shoot/don't shoot situation. Some bears associate gun fire with food. But a bear that's been sprayed before (and many have) associate pain.

I think with a handgun only and some distance, I would first shoot to miss an aggressive bear. A full magnum load from 50 feet would probably be the loudest sound the animal has ever heard. But planning these things is never how it happens - with bears or bad people.

[Mr. Leary]

Spray is the way. No need to shoot a bear. I have never heard of bear spray NOT working unless used improperly.

Are we seriously talking about bears in a home defense thread?

I'm thinking maybe we don't have it so bad here in Texas, with our snakes and fire ants!

:sombrero:

[Cackalak Han]

Yeah, I hope to never fund myself in that situation, but if I do, hopefully I'll have at least one or the other on hand.

Leary - an intruder is an intruder!! :D

[BIGdaddy]

Did you read about the guy last week who shot the burglar who turned out to be his fiance? Probably should have gone for the alarm system instead of a gun


As far is the home defense situation goes. I think its all about whats best for your particular setup. I have my gun loaded and on double action, so that its a "pick up and fire" situation.

That being said, my gun is in a digital keypad lockbox that only my wife and I know the combo to. If this pad is played with, and the incorrect numbers are pressed, it shuts off for about 2 mins. ("Baseball bat time" for me in that case. It sits next to my bed as "plan B..hahaha)

This is to protect my kids from themselves. This also requires the frame of mind to successfully unlock it. In that situation, with the gun in hand pointed safely, first step is to quietly secure the locations of my wife (in bed), kids (in their room), all while keeping my attention down the hallway where a break-in would likely occur.

If there is an intruder in their/our room, likely they'd hear the safe's solenoid working and it would turn into my worst nightmare....so I just have to focus on what I can control, do it safely, and put myself between the threat and my family, as best I can.

I do in fact, practice with the lights off, at night, with an unloaded/disabled airsoft that serves as a prop in my wifes theatre program sometimes. Simply knowing where the dark spots and cover is in your house, I think, can really help you be more effective at clearing your home safely.

I've also taken the time to stop and listen inside and outside, around 11 or 12 pm on ,say, a friday night. It helps you start to understand what noises are common and which should be questioned.

Wrongful shootings/accidental shootings are horrible, though. I can't imagine how one might feel after that. Thats why I take gun ownership very seriously and take all the precautions I can, while still keeping the gun ready to use.

[RMP&O]

I am not for or aginst the topic at hand or all the things discussed in it.

I am just glad I live where I do not lock my doors, leave keys in the ign. of my trucks and never, ever worry about personal safety or security. It is hard for me to imagine worrying this much about security that you have a plan worked out with your family in your home if something does happen. Not that it is a bad thing or wrong I just have a hard time wrapping my head around being that worried about protecting my life. In fact I do not ever want to live in a place where I have to worry about this.

That being said...I own a gun and will not hesitate to use it if that is required. Here in Wyoming it is legal to shoot a human being dead for simply trespassing. Perhaps that is why we have so little crime.....

[dzzz]

.............
I am just glad I live where I do not lock my doors, leave keys in the ign. of my trucks and never, ever worry about personal safety or security. ...................

I live 20 miles from some of the worst parts of Chicago and seldom lock my back door. My town had no burglaries last year. I have much less thought of crime than a similar neighborhood in metropolitan London. That's what most people outside the U.S. don't get: America is very big and crime is highly concentrated geographically.

One sad truth of easy gun availability is that a higher percentage of suicide attempts are fatal.

[Mr. Leary]

I am not for or aginst the topic at hand or all the things discussed in it.

I am just glad I live where I do not lock my doors, leave keys in the ign. of my trucks and never, ever worry about personal safety or security. It is hard for me to imagine worrying this much about security that you have a plan worked out with your family in your home if something does happen. Not that it is a bad thing or wrong I just have a hard time wrapping my head around being that worried about protecting my life. In fact I do not ever want to live in a place where I have to worry about this.

That being said...I own a gun and will not hesitate to use it if that is required. Here in Wyoming it is legal to shoot a human being dead for simply trespassing. Perhaps that is why we have so little crime.....

I'm sure many of us would love to live there... it would be really nice to be able to let my guard down once in a while...

[maXTERRA]

Gunvault mounted to the side of the bed is my choice and highly recommended.
Easy and quick to open in the dark and the glock22 with crimson trace and streamlight tac-light will aid me or the wife in a bad situation (simple for teh wife to operate).
We bought the gunvault before my son was born (wifes insistence) but now having his friends over and in the house all the time, I'd have it no other way.