G-Wagen vs. TLC 70/80

[G-force]

With the reputation, the LC have, regarding reliability, that would be a tricky question to answer. But i can tell you this, from my experience:

You can run a G-wagon long and hard, even after you hear and feel the need for replacement parts. The front axle has CV joints at the outer ends, and as they wear down, you hear, and feel the classic rattle as you turn hard. Even when it sounds like the CV`s are on the way out of the axle tube, you can still keep on driving. And i once had a engine out for replacement, due to the need of a turbo.Wanted to keep the manual 4 speed, because it felt and sounded to be in good shape. When i finally got the gearbox on the floor, and chekced it , i was amased. I could move the ingoing shaft about half an inch, up and down! And this gearbox felt and sounded to be in great shape!!

What i`m getting at, is that the G is very strong built. It can endure a LOT of abuse without showing signs of it.

OK, parts do brake down on a G as well, but it is usually bad maintanance, wich is the cause.

Trough my 4 different G`s, i have only replaced 1 major component, due to wear. And that was yesterdays 5 speed gearbox. The oil was black and thick, so that may be some of the reason for breakdown. Other than that, it is all different parts that should wear down as, brakes, rod ends and different bearings. Like any other vehicle.

Only my thoughts on the question.

[Gurkha]

I would agree on overengineering aspect of the G Wagen. Everything is a size two plus unlike in the TLC where its just perfect. TLCs tend to last and run without minor hitches but when they break, they need quite a few replacements. As G Force mentioned, you can run G in a very shabby condition and it will still take you everywhere with some rattles and creaks, TLC would stop dead although I have seen exceptional ones in Africa and South America and have heard TLC legend stories from Pakistan and Afghanistan. I would give you an example. On my G Wagen based Gurkha, the transfer case flange which is from old G461 series was inspected at 130,000 miles for wear, my Gurkha has seen some severe off road duty as well as regular highway drives in India which is actually worse than off road as you tend to hit bomb craters at high speed all of a sudden. I compared to my friend's TLC flange which had seen similar mileage but less off road, the surprising fact was that the Gurkha flange had far less wear and side by side comparison showed it to be beefier built than the one on the much higher powered TLC. Same goes for idler arm, even with huge tires, the greasable brass bushed idler outlasts TLC idlers even when faced with serious off road, all you need to do is grease them regularly and adjust for wear once in a while.

[snyder.hunter]

I would agree on overengineering aspect of the G Wagen. Everything is a size two plus unlike in the TLC where its just perfect. TLCs tend to last and run without minor hitches but when they break, they need quite a few replacements. As G Force mentioned, you can run G in a very shabby condition and it will still take you everywhere with some rattles and creaks, TLC would stop dead although I have seen exceptional ones in Africa and South America and have heard TLC legend stories from Pakistan and Afghanistan. I would give you an example. On my G Wagen based Gurkha, the transfer case flange which is from old G461 series was inspected at 130,000 miles for wear, my Gurkha has seen some severe off road duty as well as regular highway drives in India which is actually worse than off road as you tend to hit bomb craters at high speed all of a sudden. I compared to my friend's TLC flange which had seen similar mileage but less off road, the surprising fact was that the Gurkha flange had far less wear and side by side comparison showed it to be beefier built than the one on the much higher powered TLC. Same goes for idler arm, even with huge tires, the greasable brass bushed idler outlasts TLC idlers even when faced with serious off road, all you need to do is grease them regularly and adjust for wear once in a while.


Purpose built and high quality. Great videos - you have some balls to drive through mud like that! I would never do that, well mostly because I try to stay clear of mud, but very cool nonetheless!

[dclee]

I would agree on overengineering aspect of the G Wagen. Everything is a size two plus unlike in the TLC where its just perfect. TLCs tend to last and run without minor hitches but when they break, they need quite a few replacements. As G Force mentioned, you can run G in a very shabby condition and it will still take you everywhere with some rattles and creaks, TLC would stop dead although I have seen exceptional ones in Africa and South America and have heard TLC legend stories from Pakistan and Afghanistan. I would give you an example.

As an owner and wheeler of both (with multiple generations of Land Cruisers), and having taken my 80 Series Cruiser on trails like the Rubicon (where I will not take my G-Wagen), I think I can speak pretty objectively about both. I agree that the G is fantastically over-engineered. But I don't think the Land Cruiser is any less over-engineered. It is the vehicle of choice, now eclipsing Land Rover, for extreme duty in Australia, Asia, Africa, South America, and the Middle East.

Example: The FZJ80 Land Cruiser uses a 1-ton rated full-floating rear axle as standard, while the G uses a semi-floater that I am pretty sure is rated at less than 1 ton. At 150K miles on my old 80, the front CVs started to click (mainly due to neglect from the previous owner - when I unbuttoned them the first time after taking ownership there was nothing but greasy water in the hubs). No functional issues, just annoying. Swapped Birfields from side to side, it was as if I had put two new CVs in there. IMHO, Land Cruisers are plenty over-engineered. Just like G's! :beer:

[michaelgroves]

What does over-engineered mean? Never really understood the term.

[Gurkha]

As an owner and wheeler of both (with multiple generations of Land Cruisers), and having taken my 80 Series Cruiser on trails like the Rubicon (where I will not take my G-Wagen), I think I can speak pretty objectively about both. I agree that the G is fantastically over-engineered. But I don't think the Land Cruiser is any less over-engineered. It is the vehicle of choice, now eclipsing Land Rover, for extreme duty in Australia, Asia, Africa, South America, and the Middle East.

Example: The FZJ80 Land Cruiser uses a 1-ton rated full-floating rear axle as standard, while the G uses a semi-floater that I am pretty sure is rated at less than 1 ton. At 150K miles on my old 80, the front CVs started to click (mainly due to neglect from the previous owner - when I unbuttoned them the first time after taking ownership there was nothing but greasy water in the hubs). No functional issues, just annoying. Swapped Birfields from side to side, it was as if I had put two new CVs in there. IMHO, Land Cruisers are plenty over-engineered. Just like G's! :beer:

Fully agreed with you but in terms of certain critical parts, chassis etc. G still holds the edge, have owned both (still own the G) and have had close look at many others for comparison. I would still rate older TLCs and FJ to be closer to G in terms of durability, new ones are sacrificing a lot for weight reduction etc and thats not a good precedence, have seen FJ with cracked chassis and TLC with worn out T case. Having said all that, G and TLC would remain my one and only choice for off road vehicles, maybe a older style Nissan Patrol as well.

Btw, the rear diff on my Gurkha is from MB 307D truck and is rated at 2.75t and front from Hanomag is rated at 1.8t

[dclee]

Fully agreed with you but in terms of certain critical parts, chassis etc. G still holds the edge, have owned both (still own the G) and have had close look at many others for comparison. I would still rate older TLCs and FJ to be closer to G in terms of durability, new ones are sacrificing a lot for weight reduction etc and thats not a good precedence, have seen FJ with cracked chassis and TLC with worn out T case. Having said all that, G and TLC would remain my one and only choice for off road vehicles, maybe a older style Nissan Patrol as well.

Btw, the rear diff on my Gurkha is from MB 307D truck and is rated at 2.75t and front from Hanomag is rated at 1.8t

If by "new ones" you mean the later 100 and 200 Series, I would agree with you. The marketing on these seems to have changed, specially since they also have the 70 Series to market to the real hard-core users.

BTW, I somehow doubt that your axles are factory standard. Maybe options at best.

[Gurkha]

If by "new ones" you mean the later 100 and 200 Series, I would agree with you. The marketing on these seems to have changed, specially since they also have the 70 Series to market to the real hard-core users.

BTW, I somehow doubt that your axles are factory standard. Maybe options at best.

The axles on G are standard, the Gurkha uses MB 307D axles in rear which are rated at 2.75t and Hanomag in front rated at 1.8t, it comes stock like that.

[dclee]

Sorry, I think this is a bit of misuse of rating conventions on my part. I am referring to the (somewhat archaic) way that we in the U.S. do truck payload ratings. A 1-ton truck (e.g. Ford F350) is huge, about the biggest and heaviest light duty truck you can get for payload. The "1-ton" rating refers to payload only, though, NOT actual axle weight rating.

When I say the 80 Series Land Cruiser full-floater is rated at 1-ton, I mean it is the equivalent of that on a 1-ton rated truck (using the U.S. terminology). But if you are looking at actual weight rating down each individual axle, it is considered the equivalent of a full-floating Dana 60, which has a weight rating of 6500 pounds on the axle itself, or 3.25 tons (U.S.).

[dclee]

What does over-engineered mean? Never really understood the term.

Engineering and design specs that go beyond minimal requirements for intended purpose. For example, do the control arms really need to be forged, instead of cast? Maybe DOM tubing would suffice, and lower weight at the same time?

Maybe "over-built" is a better term...

[Gurkha]

I will give 70s series TLC a bit of a leeway as they were built with a different phillosophy by Toyota, even then the G holds the edge and with current crop of FJ and TLC, G has full advantage over them. The OM616 and 617 used in early 460 and 461 G have no peer, show me one Toyota engine that can go the high miles these two engines do. Same goes for G's tranny and diff, far less wear comparatively even when used in severe conditions. I would agree the point on wheel travel but then the lockers up front and rear more than make up for that and said and done, even a stock G with ATS tires can do quite well against some seriously modded machines provided the driver knows how and when to use the lockers and G's stump pulling low ratio.

[Gurkha]

Sorry, I think this is a bit of misuse of rating conventions on my part. I am referring to the (somewhat archaic) way that we in the U.S. do truck payload ratings. A 1-ton truck (e.g. Ford F350) is huge, about the biggest and heaviest light duty truck you can get for payload. The "1-ton" rating refers to payload only, though, NOT actual axle weight rating.

When I say the 80 Series Land Cruiser full-floater is rated at 1-ton, I mean it is the equivalent of that on a 1-ton rated truck (using the U.S. terminology). But if you are looking at actual weight rating down each individual axle, it is considered the equivalent of a full-floating Dana 60, which has a weight rating of 6500 pounds on the axle itself, or 3.25 tons (U.S.).


My source is the German magazine offroad.de test where Gurkha pulled off 2.75t of payload.

[dclee]

I will give 70s series TLC a bit of a leeway as they were built with a different phillosophy by Toyota, even then the G holds the edge and with current crop of FJ and TLC, G has full advantage over them. The OM616 and 617 used in early 460 and 461 G have no peer, show me one Toyota engine that can go the high miles these two engines do. Same goes for G's tranny and diff, far less wear comparatively even when used in severe conditions. I would agree the point on wheel travel but then the lockers up front and rear more than make up for that and said and done, even a stock G with ATS tires can do quite well against some seriously modded machines provided the driver knows how and when to use the lockers and G's stump pulling low ratio.

My understanding is that the 1FZ-FE in the 70 and 80 Series trucks was designed for three rebuilds (a rebuild consisting of simply re-shimming the valves), with 300,000 km between rebuilds. That's 1.2 million kilometers as a the design spec (which of course is usually underestimated by the manufacturer). I have seen examples with 500,000+ miles (not kilometers), but beyond that, the trucks are simply not old enough to have been driven that far yet. The B and H series diesels are also no slouches.

As for the suspension, the G makes up for lack of articulation with lockers. So what about a fully locked 70 or 80? Eats the G alive on the trail. Been there, done that (at least for the 80, can't get the 70 in the U.S.). And low ratio sucks on the G. 2.14:1 is about the worst I've seen in an off-roader.

Sorry, not trying to be a troll here, just trying to correct some misconceptions.

[michaelgroves]

As for the suspension, the G makes up for lack of articulation with lockers. So what about a fully locked 70 or 80? Eats the G alive on the trail. Been there, done that (at least for the 80, can't get the 70 in the U.S.). And low ratio sucks on the G. 2.14:1 is about the worst I've seen in an off-roader.

Sorry, not trying to be a troll here, just trying to correct some misconceptions.

I'm with you on the point that diff locks only partially mitigate poor axle articulation (having lockers and good axle articulation is the ideal). And while in the 1970s and 80s, it was hard to find vehicles with lockers, nowadays that feature of the G-wagen is not nearly as special, as there are after-market lockers for just about any truck.

How good a vehicle is on a trail is mainly a function of just a few key features - tyres, ground clearance/angles, axle articulation, diff locks, torque at the wheels, and horsepower. But after those things are granted, there are another whole bunch of things (lots of them hard to quantify or even define) that make the difference between good and great. Visibility, for example. Ergonomics. Weight distribution and COG. Throttle response and movement. Turning circle. "Feel" and feedback.

There's no question the G scores very highly in a lot of these areas - it just feels good when you take it off-road. Like any debate between different trucks, you could argue endlessly about which is better. (I certainly wouldn't agree that a locked 70 or 80 would "eat the G alive", they both have strengths and weaknesses. For example, the axle articulation on the 70-series isn't all that special either!). You just pays your money and you takes your choice...

But since this is a G-wagon forum, you can expect there to be strong home-team support!

[dclee]

Good points Michael! If you notice my sig line, you'll see that I own a G (my second one), not a 70 or 80 Series (anymore), so I have no skin in this game. I'm just not into dogma and ideology where trucks are concerned, they all have their good and bad points, none is perfect (including the G), and I don't see the point in disparaging one over the other - except where Jeeps are concerned! ;-) All too often on these forums I see people puffing up their own truck and slamming others not based on facts, but what seems to me to be based on a need to justify their own choice.

Otherwise, great build thread, and great looking truck, let's see more!

[Gurkha]

My understanding is that the 1FZ-FE in the 70 and 80 Series trucks was designed for three rebuilds (a rebuild consisting of simply re-shimming the valves), with 300,000 km between rebuilds. That's 1.2 million kilometers as a the design spec (which of course is usually underestimated by the manufacturer). I have seen examples with 500,000+ miles (not kilometers), but beyond that, the trucks are simply not old enough to have been driven that far yet. The B and H series diesels are also no slouches.

As for the suspension, the G makes up for lack of articulation with lockers. So what about a fully locked 70 or 80? Eats the G alive on the trail. Been there, done that (at least for the 80, can't get the 70 in the U.S.). And low ratio sucks on the G. 2.14:1 is about the worst I've seen in an off-roader.

Sorry, not trying to be a troll here, just trying to correct some misconceptions.


Tell you what, there are plenty of Toyota engines on ply here including D series, also B and H series, best among them are the H series built by HINO and none of them approach the life of OM616 and 617. 1FZ-FE are quite common as well. All are very good but MB diesel, they arent'.

As for eating G alive with lockers, I seriously doubt that, the G chassis can take torture that would wring the TLC chassis to a twist. I have seen cases of idler arm shearing off from TLC chassis, nothing like that ever happens with G. My friend in South Africa has owned both G and TLC, he has praise for both but he found out that the TLC chassis to take far less attrition than the G. So yes, TLC is great and apart from G, its the best. It will never be a G of course.

[4Rescue]

Tell you what, there are plenty of Toyota engines on ply here including D series, also B and H series, best among them are the H series built by HINO and none of them approach the life of OM616 and 617. 1FZ-FE are quite common as well. All are very good but MB diesel, they arent'.

As for eating G alive with lockers, I seriously doubt that, the G chassis can take torture that would wring the TLC chassis to a twist. I have seen cases of idler arm shearing off from TLC chassis, nothing like that ever happens with G. My friend in South Africa has owned both G and TLC, he has praise for both but he found out that the TLC chassis to take far less attrition than the G. So yes, TLC is great and apart from G, its the best. It will never be a G of course.
... So many poor "facts" in alot of your posts mate, but hey, you love your G's and I will agree they're awesome trucks... Are they so much better then a 70 Series Cruiser? No, not hardly, but they're awesome trucks nonethe less...

And if you want to talk about Diesel supremecy, Cummins beats both Toyota AND Mercedes into the ground in terms of duty cycles... However me thinks you're not too up to snuff on H-series Toyota Diesels they're really quite robust and are know world-wide to be a VERY reliable motor. Does Merc make a better diesel? Possibly, but at what point is one so much better then the other??? they're both amazing and will hold up to endless abuse so what if one can go for 400K and the other can go for 450K they're both phenominal if you ask me.

Now your love of the Ghurka... That just mistifies me. However it also intreagues me and makes me wish I had one around to take a look at because form the Videos shown on the web they look to be about as flimsy as a Yugo while being tested on "extreme tracks" that look like some of our driveways and "improved roads" here in Oregon ;) I'd like to see a Ghurka hold up to a year on a Cattle station in Australia cause I really don't belive it'd last. As I said though, your love of them really makes me want to crawl around in/on one to see what they're made of. Have you ever really looked at/tinkered with a Toyota "mini-truck" or Hillux to you all??? THat frame under my own 1st Gen 4Runner defines Toyota's overbuilding of something reletive to it's size and intended usage. Toyota has always made amazingly sturdy 4wd trucks (even if the sheetmetal is a bit flimsy ;) ) but then so has Mercedes sp frankly I'd actualy say, as I did before that the G/70series are, to me, a Tie in terms of ruggedness. I would love to own either one with either diesel plain and simple...

Cheers

Dave

[Gurkha]

... So many poor "facts" in alot of your posts mate, but hey, you love your G's and I will agree they're awesome trucks... Are they so much better then a 70 Series Cruiser? No, not hardly, but they're awesome trucks nonethe less...

And if you want to talk about Diesel supremecy, Cummins beats both Toyota AND Mercedes into the ground in terms of duty cycles... However me thinks you're not too up to snuff on H-series Toyota Diesels they're really quite robust and are know world-wide to be a VERY reliable motor. Does Merc make a better diesel? Possibly, but at what point is one so much better then the other??? they're both amazing and will hold up to endless abuse so what if one can go for 400K and the other can go for 450K they're both phenominal if you ask me.

Now your love of the Ghurka... That just mistifies me. However it also intreagues me and makes me wish I had one around to take a look at because form the Videos shown on the web they look to be about as flimsy as a Yugo while being tested on "extreme tracks" that look like some of our driveways and "improved roads" here in Oregon ;) I'd like to see a Ghurka hold up to a year on a Cattle station in Australia cause I really don't belive it'd last. As I said though, your love of them really makes me want to crawl around in/on one to see what they're made of. Have you ever really looked at/tinkered with a Toyota "mini-truck" or Hillux to you all??? THat frame under my own 1st Gen 4Runner defines Toyota's overbuilding of something reletive to it's size and intended usage. Toyota has always made amazingly sturdy 4wd trucks (even if the sheetmetal is a bit flimsy ;) ) but then so has Mercedes sp frankly I'd actualy say, as I did before that the G/70series are, to me, a Tie in terms of ruggedness. I would love to own either one with either diesel plain and simple...

Cheers

Dave


My facts are poor because they don't reflect the love of your life TLC in good light. Well I am an ex TLC owner. I never said the H series Hino engines are inferior in any sense, however they are not MB and not all MB engines come close to the legend of the two I mentioned. That goes to show your knowledge on MB. FYI, there was a massive recall on one of the H series engines, good old Toyota played it down initially, then when lawsuits piled, they went and quietly did the job. The engines would have premature crank bearing failure due to design. It affected late 80s TLCs. As for Cummins better than Mercedes and Toyota diesels, all I would say is Muuuhahahahaha, I think I have now have an idea about your general knowledge level on diesels. Cummins is not even remotely close to the engineering and design of either MB or HINO, please get the hell out of Oregon and see the world. In adverse conditions of zero maintenance and overload, only HINO and MB engines survive in trucks driven in third world regions. There is Cummins in India as well sold by Tata, the reputation of that engine by any standards is a joke when its compared to HINO engined trucks.

Gurkha flimsy, wow are you mystified, what videos are you talking about may I ask, thats a huge ball of yarn that I have ever heard one. Please read May 87 issue of German Off Road mag where it was tested against the likes of TLC, G and LR, do you know what title was given to it? Haarter Im Buschtaxi, loosely translated meaning hardest off roader ever. 10 years of road that would bring your TLC to a scrap yard and it still runs. You talk about TLC hardiness compared to G, TLC won't even last against a Russian Gaz. Since you declare the world's only tubular chassis off roader as weak and not able to survive cattle station, let me tell you, with MB powertrain, MB3 ton diff in rear, 1.8ton in front, the Gurkha outlasts TLC handsomely on Indian roads where the dainty Japanese vehicle manages to eat its flange, loose its suspension bushings, develop diff groan etc., I am not even talking the terrains, just roads after monsoons where you get bomb sized craters. When we talk about off road, the porky TLC, FJs are a joke, even the WW-II Jeeps manage to thrash them there, the Gurkha with diff locks front and rear and super flexy tubular chassis manages to run circles around the costly Japanese toy with its massive V8, kind of a shame as the Gurkha has an ancient turbo charged OM616. Isn't that a contradiction when you call the G to be capable but the same G460 based Gurkha to be weak. Just FYI, the hood on the Gurkha weighs a solid 60lb, now thats about couple of times higher than the plastic (cough) hood on a TLC.

Now I don't wish to start a G Wagen/Gurkha versus TLC war, I love them all, if there was no G or Gurkha, I would be on a TLC no matter how weak the chassis, Of course to keep a TLC, I would have to buy a welding machine to fix the chassis crack and idler arm shear but even then, its a real nice well made vehicle, G Wagen or Gurkha it would never be in its wildest dreams ever. Lastly, this is a G Wagen thread, anything MB is welcomed, TLC thread is there for ranting on your favorite pseudo dainty little Japanese toy off roader.

This is a 20 year old 2WD version of Gurkha plying on Indian roads on daily basis, I guess its quite weak as one can see.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/40/119166358_b49d537a5c.jpg?v=0

[mauricio_28]

Alright, take it easy guys, take it easy...

Gurkha, I am still searching for my 463 GD300 here in Indonesia. Most recently I came across a 463 G300 with about 110k kilometers selling for US$22k. What do you think? What´s the price range for a GD300 in good condition?

[dclee]

So many delusions, where to start?

Again, not trying to dis Gs, I love G's and that's what I currently own. You are a former TLC owner, while I am a current owner of both, and have been so for a long time. I am pretty intimately familiar with both trucks, and won't delude myself into thinking either one does not have its faults. Neither is perfect. Heck, I'll even go so far as to defend Rovers, Patrols (though I have no direct experience with them) and even the occasional Jeep! I am not tied dogmatically to some delusion of the perfect truck, with angels singing in the background.

I also don't think it is fair (especially to newbies) to spread incorrect information (like this "weak chassis" stuff, or the "plastic" hood comment, couldn't even begin to imagine where that falsehood comes from...).

Off the top of my head, here are some of the noted problems that are documented on the various G forums:

premature wheel bearing failures
premature prop shaft failures
head cracking and failure on the OM603 engines
5-speed Getrag gearbox durability
not sure why, but MUCH more prone to rust, both body AND frame, to the point that frame components must be replaced (spring perches are pretty common)


My perfectly maintained G with the original OM617 has actually left me stranded before, twice. Neither time was due to electronics, they were both as a result of engine-related failures. Conversely, none of my Land Cruisers ever has let me down, and they have been MUCH more abused. My experiences and those of many people that I know both in the U.S. and places like Africa and Australia have shown the durability of the Land Cruiser. Those are also places where the G has never caught on, while Land Cruisers have taken over from Land Rovers as the workhorses of the back country, and not because it was forced on them by former Imperial masters (e.g. Rover), but because they could choose the best vehicle in the world for their intended purpose, and they chose (and continue to choose) the Land Cruiser.

And again, as far as reliability (which is not the same thing as durability), the Cruiser is still at the top of the heap. I don't think any non-deluded person could argue otherwise. Now, if you're talking durability (which again is something different), I would argue that they are basically the same.

If you've ever wheeled either truck in serious rocks (e.g. Rubicon Trail, Fordyce Creek, Paragon, Katemcy, Johnson Valley, etc.), the deficiencies in the G's suspension become RAPIDLY apparent. Like I said, been there, done that, the G does not come up roses (compared to a multi-linked or leaf-sprung Land Cruiser).

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on how the G and the Cruiser stack up against one another. I happen to think they are much more evenly matched, especially when talking apples to apples: 70 or 80 Series with factory lockers versus 460 or 461 with factory lockers. I happen to like both trucks and feel that neither one has a decisive advantage. So it really comes down to personal preference as far as I'm concerned.

BTW, I love that picture of the "Gurkha". Now I understand, it is not a Graz-produced G, it is a G clone. So for you to say the axles are standard (and even at that, they are still weaker than those on a 70 or 80 Series Land Cruiser) does not necessarily mean they are standard on an Austrian G. Also, what's up with the independent front suspension in that picture (at least that's what it looks like)? There's less ground clearance under there than on a Porsche. And 20 years old? Driving on smooth asphalt? Poo-poo, here's a 40 year old Land Cruiser driving where Gurkhas fear to tread:

[dclee]

...and here I am in my "weak" Land Cruiser negotiating the Gatekeeper obstacle on the Rubicon Trail (before the Forest Service dynamited it flat):

[Gurkha]

For every G problem that you list, I can list a quantum number more, how bout weak chassis, the chassis cracks in new FJs. Weak idler arm housing shearing off, transfer case flange premature wear. Overall weak body panels dinging with a slight rock hit. Gasoline engines with premature sludging and exhaust valve burn, sluding is a typical Toyota speciality, engine head gasket failure in the inline 6, another typical Toyo trait. Overall weak weak weak weak, few runs off road, all the drivetrain components show early signs of wear.

The fact that you fictitiously compare the so called reliability of your Toy against a MB Gelande Wagen which is legendary for its reliability combined with durability speak of peyote induced daydream at the best. Lets put it this way, TLC is competent, cheap as compared to G Wagen but in terms of durability or reliability when pushed to extremes, it will never remotely come close to a G Wagen or Gurkha or even to an extent a 80s old Nissan Patrol.

Now you are talking about Gurkha, that particular one plys in 45C weather of Rajasthan and just because its taken on a asphalt road don't necessarily mean that thats all it does. It goes through roads rural areas where they have no roads. Now about your pics, its just a joke, you call that a stock TLC, modded tires and suspension, tell you what, with just bigger wheels, the Gurkha or G would do that with ease on daily basis and wont' break their plastic parts on top of that.

Where did I say they are stock G diffs, please read my posts with care. I mentioned rear diffs from MB 307D truck and front from Hanomag utility vehicle. Where does G come in this equation is beyond my comprehension. About GC, Gurkha stock has 238mm, which is more than your stock TLC toy, so if thats low to you, get yourself an Unimog.

The idler arm in TLCs with IFS come with plastic bushings which wear down in no time, the mod is to put beefier idler arm with brass bushings which are greaseable, FYI, Gurkha has far beefier ider arm which is an integral part of the tubular chassis and they come stock with brass bushings and can be greased. So much for high tech TOY from Japan. Plastic bushings, plastic suspension and sludgemesiter engine, I think I have heard enough.

Aww gee......look at the new Tonka toy cracking under stress, a typical FJ specialty.

http://www.fjcruiserforums.com/gallery/data/500/415.jpg

http://www.fjcruiserforums.com/gallery/data/500/149.jpg

LOLOLOL! I guess TIGs are a standard feature when FJs are off roaded. Guess you would need a sturdy truck to carry th TIGs, I volunteer with my G300 or Gurkha, your choice.

[Gurkha]

Now compare the Gurkha's chassis to the toy you see above.

http://www.force4x4.com/images/frontsuspensionwithdifflocks.jpg

http://www.force4x4.com/images/transfercasewithpto.jpg

Now take a look at the size of the axles, chassis in G

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x-IaAhywis

How one can compare to the toy sized chassis and axle in TLC is beyond sense.

About G Wagens rust issue, I can show you equal number of poorly maintained TLCs and FJs rusting away. The G Wagen has a stronger body corrugated sheet body panel and that makes the lines squarer compared to the play dough design TLC. Thats the reason water tends to stay in a G body compared to a TLC so when not maintained right, a G body would rust quicker than a rounded body vehicle.

[dclee]

I started this reply out in a very nasty manner, then realized it wasn't worth it. Sometimes, there's just no reasoning with folks. Plus, I don't know you, so I'm not going to make personal attacks. And BTW, I don't smoke peyote, but I am drinking a glass of wine right now. So let me just try to clear up a few of these misconceptions in as objective a manner as I can.

I still don't know where you're getting this plastic parts idea, if you've ever been under a real Land Cruiser, you'd know that there is nothing plastic under there (except splash guards and crap like that on the newer ones, which are not mechanical components and therefore moot for this argument). Plastic bushings? Not on any Land Cruiser I've ever serviced.

This next one is actually kinda funny! The latest FJ (I assume you mean FJ Cruiser, especially judging by those pics of yours) is not the same thing as the heavy duty Land Cruisers that I am talking about (40, 45, 55, 60, 70, 80 Series, etc.). Let me repeat that again: it is NOT a Land Cruiser. It is in fact built on the light duty Prado/GX/4Runner platform. I wonder if this is the source of all of your other mis-statements? For example, the FJ Cruiser does in fact have large plastic inserts in its hood, so maybe that is where your "plastic hood" comment comes from. But I can tell you that a real Land Cruiser has all steel up there, buddy. Please try to get your facts straight before posting this drivel.

You have a whopping statistic of exactly one for the idler arm housing. And was that even on a Land Cruiser, or was that on an FJ Cruiser (now everything you've written previously is suspect to me). Anyway, that is statistically insignificant. I personally have never seen or heard of this on a REAL Land Cruiser.

Big-end bearing problem was in one run of bearing caps for the 1HD-FTE engine in 1990. It was fixed. Other than that, this engine has been faultless, let alone the previous H, 2H, and legendary 12HT before it.

And yes, all those 40 and 50 year old Land Cruisers running around, getting regularly pounded on the rocks in the U.S. or corrugations in the Outback, they sure can't stand up to time and abuse. :rolleyes: I'm just not sure where you're getting your data that Cruisers won't stand up to the abuse over time, and are not even "remotely" close to G's in that regard. Tell that to all the UN peacekeepers, Red Cross workers, Australian cattle drivers, and African safari companies that abuse these things. So I've gotta call b#(($#!t on that one, unless you can give me some verifiable sources (no, not car test mags, or one-off experiences of friends - show me the entire body of work).

238 mm. minimum ground clearance. That is certainly more than a stock 460, and even more than a stock 463 (211 mm.), so the Gurkha must use taller suspension coils or bigger tires. However, even at 238 mm. you have still not beat a factory stock FZJ80 Land Cruiser, not by a longshot. Minimum height at the lowest point (bottom of diff pumpkin) is 10.8", or 274 mm. (rounded down). That's more than 20% higher than the Gurkha. And don't talk to me about UNIMOGs. I've owned two of them. Capable, but the Cruisers were actually much more pleasant to wheel.

On my pics, I never said they were stock. Sure they have suspension lifts and bigger tires. But the components in question: axles, diffs, frame, even steering in the case of the 80, those are stock. The argument was about durability, and my point was that the components on a Cruiser are easily up to taking severe beatings, all the time. Also, put a G on bigger wheels and a lift and it will still NOT do that, or at least not nearly as easily. Unless you like teetering on two wheels a lot and leaving butt cheek imprints on your seats because you're clenching them so hard. I've witnessed it. Scary.

As for the axles, I must have mis-read your post (#22), where you state:
"The axles on G are standard, the Gurkha uses MB 307D axles in rear which are rated at 2.75t and Hanomag in front rated at 1.8t, it comes stock like that." I took that to mean that you were saying the axles on the G and Gurkha were the same and both were standard issue. If that is not the case, my apologies.

[Gurkha]

We all get passionaite and loose our senses, I am not better. The Gurkha uses tubular chassis as you can see from the pics. The GC advertised on factory TLCs are claimed to be 220mm which is 18mm shorter than Gurkha, side by side comparison reveals the same. A TLC is nowhere near a Gurkha's ground clearance.

Now here we have another contradiction to your statement, seems like according to this report your Tonka Toy's GC has serious issues. http://www.fourwheeler.com/featuredvehicles/129_0508_1993_toyota_land_cruiser_fzj80/index.html

Lastly you have stooped low to even dis the mightiest most competent off roader ever built thats the UNIMOG, tell you what, nothing from that toy maker Toyota can even remotely dream of coming close to Unimog, not even the cheap typical Japanese copy of H1 Megacruiser.

[dclee]

We all get passionaite and loose our senses, I am not better. The Gurkha uses tubular chassis as you can see from the pics. The GC advertised on factory TLCs are claimed to be 220mm which is 18mm shorter than Gurkha, side by side comparison reveals the same. A TLC is nowhere near a Gurkha's ground clearance.

Where are you seeing this advertised? I am looking at the factory literature from Toyota Motor Company for a 1994 80 Series Land Cruiser. Also, beyond that, we've actually measured our trucks in the real world and the number I gave earlier is accurate. What side-by-side comparison are you talking about? If that's true, either you are not parked next to an FZJ80 (maybe an FJ Cruiser? ;)), or the Gurkha is higher than advertised. Also, I'm talking about minimum running ground clearance. The body on the G (and I assume the Gurkha) is higher, which may give the illusion that it is a taller truck underneath as well. But you have to measure the lowest points on both trucks, which should always be the bottom of the pumpkins.


Now here we have another contradiction to your statement, seems like according to this report your Tonka Toy's GC has serious issues. http://www.fourwheeler.com/featuredvehicles/129_0508_1993_toyota_land_cruiser_fzj80/index.html

What contradiction? That article seems like it pretty much supports what I've been saying. I had that same 6" lift from Christo. The driveline vibrations mentioned (which in point of fact are minor and more annoyance than anything else) are due to the extreme lift and the changed angles of the prop shaft flanges to the T-case. This is normal in any truck that is lifted to a certain degree, and in fact happens to the G with even smaller lifts (it's less tolerant to suspension lift, especially with the outdated radius arm design). I certainly hope you don't think this vibration happens in factory stock Cruisers...


Lastly you have stooped low to even dis the mightiest most competent off roader ever built thats the UNIMOG, tell you what, nothing from that toy maker Toyota can even remotely dream of coming close to Unimog, not even the cheap typical Japanese copy of H1 Megacruiser.

Haha, yes, that was said sort of tongue-in-cheek, and notice I didn't say the Cruisers were better wheelers, just that they were more pleasant to wheel. ;) But let me be serious for a moment. As capable as they are, MOGs are a bear to wheel, unless you drive one everyday and are thoroughly well-versed in the controls. Especially in tight technical trails, where you have to be able to react fast. I don't know if you've ever driven one, but I've owned two of these mighty beasts (though one never ran). Capable as hell, but no fun to drive. The controls are not intuitive, and there are too many of them. Plus, it's essentially a forward control cab, so you're basically sitting on the engine, with virtually no shielding, which means not only is it uncomfortably hot (especially in the summer), but so loud that you can't carry on a conversation and need to wear ear protection when driving on the highway. BTW, did I say highway? You can barely get out of your own way, and you'd be lucky to get 55 mph on level road at sea level! So yes, they were not very pleasant to wheel compared to my Cruisers, where I could roll up the windows and turn on the A/C and CD player while reclining in my power-adjustable leather seats.

Still, I don't know why you insist on all this vitriolic disrespect of Toyota. Did someone piss in your cornflakes, did Toyota take jobs away from your town, or does your self-esteem need some bolstering? Oh well, cheers, have a good day. :beer:

[Christian]

Hi

First of all before I go in to this subject I think my own experiences with the vehicles discussed must be mentioned. I have owned Landcruisers (HJ60 and KZJ70) and driven others (BJ42, LJ70, HDJ80, VX90) plus various hiluxes etc. And being a former sergeant in the Danish army I have driven a lot of G-wagens (short version, special army scout version, long bodies etc.)and Unimogs. I have even driven a G500 offroad. So you know I don't just make unsupported claims.

First of all, this thread started as a discussion on G-wagens and have ended up being a "mines better than yours" flame, with one participant being especially nasty in his formulations. Let me be the one to remind everybody to "play nice".

Secondly, when including the FJ-Cruiser we might as well include the M-class or even the GL from Mercedes. Remember when making theses comparisons that Toyota have made scores of 4x4 in almost every configuration, it is therefore easy to find one that in some respect or other is outperformed by the original G-wagen, this goes the other way around too!

Thirdly, on the errors or less perfect designs or solutions made by Toyota, again remember that the Land Cruiser is the most produced 4x4 ever, with production numbers twice as high as any other manufacturer. Therefore finding flaws will be easier than on the G-wagen.

I have seen flaws on both manufacturers vehicles, I have seen G-wagens that have stripped the teeth of their diff's (2.4L N/A engine version, didn't think that engine would be strong enough for that though!) Birf's broken on cruisers, nothing is perfect. One common this is rust though!
I know it can be hard to ignore when somebody flames what you love, or show blatant ignorance of fact (otherwise I wouldn't chime in, would I?) But compairing vehicles is almost impossible to do, and possitively impossible when some are religiously devoted to one kind only.
I have seen one participant in this thread defending G's in several other threads with all the passion and fanatism of a religious celot, to others beware, there is no reasoning with celots.

Now I would like to remind everyone on the subject of the thread and the O/P.

best regards,

Christian

[Gurkha]

Where are you seeing this advertised? I am looking at the factory literature from Toyota Motor Company for a 1994 80 Series Land Cruiser. Also, beyond that, we've actually measured our trucks in the real world and the number I gave earlier is accurate. What side-by-side comparison are you talking about? If that's true, either you are not parked next to an FZJ80 (maybe an FJ Cruiser? ;)), or the Gurkha is higher than advertised. Also, I'm talking about minimum running ground clearance. The body on the G (and I assume the Gurkha) is higher, which may give the illusion that it is a taller truck underneath as well. But you have to measure the lowest points on both trucks, which should always be the bottom of the pumpkins.



What contradiction? That article seems like it pretty much supports what I've been saying. I had that same 6" lift from Christo. The driveline vibrations mentioned (which in point of fact are minor and more annoyance than anything else) are due to the extreme lift and the changed angles of the prop shaft flanges to the T-case. This is normal in any truck that is lifted to a certain degree, and in fact happens to the G with even smaller lifts (it's less tolerant to suspension lift, especially with the outdated radius arm design). I certainly hope you don't think this vibration happens in factory stock Cruisers...



Haha, yes, that was said sort of tongue-in-cheek, and notice I didn't say the Cruisers were better wheelers, just that they were more pleasant to wheel. ;) But let me be serious for a moment. As capable as they are, MOGs are a bear to wheel, unless you drive one everyday and are thoroughly well-versed in the controls. Especially in tight technical trails, where you have to be able to react fast. I don't know if you've ever driven one, but I've owned two of these mighty beasts (though one never ran). Capable as hell, but no fun to drive. The controls are not intuitive, and there are too many of them. Plus, it's essentially a forward control cab, so you're basically sitting on the engine, with virtually no shielding, which means not only is it uncomfortably hot (especially in the summer), but so loud that you can't carry on a conversation and need to wear ear protection when driving on the highway. BTW, did I say highway? You can barely get out of your own way, and you'd be lucky to get 55 mph on level road at sea level! So yes, they were not very pleasant to wheel compared to my Cruisers, where I could roll up the windows and turn on the A/C and CD player while reclining in my power-adjustable leather seats.

Still, I don't know why you insist on all this vitriolic disrespect of Toyota. Did someone piss in your cornflakes, did Toyota take jobs away from your town, or does your self-esteem need some bolstering? Oh well, cheers, have a good day. :beer:


The lowest point on Gurkha is at 238mm with standard 16" 7.50x16 tires. Can you tell me whats the factory claim in mm of the TLC you mention, would be interesting to know. Driveline vibrations means harmonics will eventually get better of the components, no matter I see quite a few TLCs with worn out flanges.

Mog was not meant to be highway driven although the Brabus I drove in Germany was not too shabby on highway. You don't buy a Mog to do a duty of a Mall cruiser like the TLC. You do serious off road with it.

[mrbishi]

Guys take all your quarreling / mines better than yours cr@p to another thread! :violent-smiley-031:

This is G-forces build up thread. btw she's a beaut mate - can't wait to see what you come up with!

[Gurkha]

Exactly, this thread is about G, there is a seperate Tonka Toy thread out here, no need to ruin a legit G thread.

[michaelgroves]

Or a 40yo Land Rover, doing what's presumably light retirement duty:

32495


The point is, all of these are good vehicles, and none of them is better in every respect than the others. So which you rate "best" overall is a personal opinion, based on your perception of its charateristics, and your personal judgment of which characteristics are most important.

You can be of the opinion that the G-Wagen (or even, for that matter, the Gurkha) is the finest 4x4 in the world, but it's a matter of judgment not fact.

[dclee]

The lowest point on Gurkha is at 238mm with standard 16" 7.50x16 tires. Can you tell me whats the factory claim in mm of the TLC you mention, would be interesting to know. Driveline vibrations means harmonics will eventually get better of the components, no matter I see quite a few TLCs with worn out flanges.

Mog was not meant to be highway driven although the Brabus I drove in Germany was not too shabby on highway. You don't buy a Mog to do a duty of a Mall cruiser like the TLC. You do serious off road with it.

Factory spec on the FZJ80 is what I said, 274 mm. That bears out in real life. And go back and read again what I said about the driveline vibes. They do NOT happen in factory stock Cruisers. They only happen when you start radically lifting the trucks (suspension lifts, not body lifts), and this also happens to the G (and Gurkha) as well as any other vehicle where you start altering driveline geometry. It's just physics.

As for the MOG, the 404 actually was intended for highway use (militaries don't use the back country to transfer men and materiel unless they have to). It's just that speed limits (and the speed of other traffic) was much lower I believe back in the 50's and 60's. But anyway, my main point was that they are not pleasant to wheel, not nearly as pleasant as a Land Cruiser. But I never disputed that they are just about the most capable factory stock vehicles on the planet.

See, this kind of discourse I have no problem with. Just leave the fanatical dogma at the door and let's have an intelligent discussion. I will reply by saying that, on a purely academic basis, this "debate" has been enlightening to me because I found out that there is a licensed version of the G-Wagen being produced in India with a fully tubed chassis. Very cool stuff. But again, let's keep it apples to apples. Real Land Cruiser and real G (and Gurkha, Defender, Patrol, etc.). Let's not start comparing them to lighter duty vehicles like the FJ Cruiser, 4Runner, GLK, ML, Pathfinder, Freelander, etc. :beer:

edit: Which, BTW, also have their own legitimate uses and advantages.

[dclee]

Guys take all your quarreling / mines better than yours cr@p to another thread! :violent-smiley-031:

This is G-forces build up thread. btw she's a beaut mate - can't wait to see what you come up with!


I agree. Not sure why someone decided to have a go at Toyota on this thread, but sometimes I just can't let it go when people post outright falsehoods. I think it's a disservice to folks who are trying to get some real factual information. Unless more disinformation is posted, I'm done with this line of thought.

[dclee]

You can be of the opinion that the G-Wagen (or even, for that matter, the Gurkha) is the finest 4x4 in the world, but it's a matter of judgment not fact.

Nice Series Rover, BTW. I love those trucks. Can't even get Defenders here anymore. :(

[datrupr]

I cannot believe I just read this whole thread. This is extremely sad. Brand bashing of any sort will not be tolerated on this site. That is stated in the rules when you sign up. Everyone has a personal opinion, and different vehicles work for different people. All have their strong points and their weak points. People buy what they like and what works for them. What really gets me fuming angry is the low road this thread has taken. Gforce was showing us his truck. I was very impressed. Have any of you noticed that he has not posted up again since the bashing started? Gforce, as a long time member of this forum, though not a moderator, I would like to offer an apology for the course your thread has taken. Please, lets get this back on track. Gforce, please share more with us on your build up. I was very curious and interested.

Mods, is it possible to remove all of the posts not related to the build up of Gforce's truck? I think most of us would like that. Thank you.

[Gurkha]

Toyota fans come to a G Wagen thread and start comparing their vehicle to the G, then they try and make it right by justifying their behavior. There is a seperate Toyota thread running at this forum, they are welcome to post about their favorite vehicle there. No need to come raining down a G Wagen thread and start a comparison war.

If I as a G Wagen owner praise my vehicle and call it the best, most durable and reliable off roader ever built (which in reality it is notwithstanding) on a thread dedicated to the G Wagen, I have every right to do so and no Toyota or any other fanboi has the right to rain on my parade provided I don't bring any direct comparison. Also there is no reason to make any direct comparison because the others are simply not in the class of the G.

http://www.dopeshiz.com/G-Wagen.jpg

[dclee]

Toyota fans come to a G Wagen thread and start comparing their vehicle to the G, then they try and make it right by justifying their behavior. There is a seperate Toyota thread running at this forum, they are welcome to post about their favorite vehicle there. No need to come raining down a G Wagen thread and start a comparison war.

Hey, don't look at me. I didn't bring up Toyota. See post #12 for that. And see post #15 for when the mud and falsehoods started being slung.

I have owned four Mercedes and three Toyota trucks (see my sig). I think that hardly qualifies me as a Toyota worshiper. As I have reiterated several times, I like all of these trucks, they all have strengths and weaknesses, and to say that the G is in a class of its own is just blind zealotry. But I guess Christian was right about that. So how about this: G-Wagens and Gurkhas suck, UNIMOGs destroy them.

BTW, your ongoing use of terms like "Tonka Toy" and "Toyota fanboi" continue to demonstrate your high level of maturity...

[4Rescue]

Toyota fans come to a G Wagen thread and start comparing their vehicle to the G, then they try and make it right by justifying their behavior... blah blah blabity blah

Last time I swear: I wish there was a "Shakes-head-slpas-forehead-rolls-eyes" emoticon because you sir deserve it... You clearly don't get what has been asked of us all and that is: we quit our yapping over brand loyalty and get back to G-Force's amazing truck...

Like I said: G-Force we need some pics of this beauty to get us over this hump :D ...

Oh and question about your truck (I'll look back through the thread and see if I can deduce this myself but...) : Does it have the Checkerboard "Tweed" seats??? And how are your Lockers actuated, levers/plungers between the seats or buttons on the dash (was there a middle location-from between the seats to on top of the HVAC stack- in the evolution of the controls)???

Cheers

Dave

[dclee]

If I remember correctly about G-Force's truck from the PointedThree forum (and also going by the build year), it is actually a 460 with the trim redone with 463 bits (nose, bumpers, etc.). So I would assume it has the mechanical plunger activated lockers. There was no middle position, all 460s and 461s have had the locker actuation plungers in the same location since 1979.

G-Force: have we scared you off? Please come back! ;)

[LC/LR4Life]

As for eating G alive with lockers, I seriously doubt that, the G chassis can take torture that would wring the TLC chassis to a twist. I have seen cases of idler arm shearing off from TLC chassis, nothing like that ever happens with G. My friend in South Africa has owned both G and TLC, he has praise for both but he found out that the TLC chassis to take far less attrition than the G. So yes, TLC is great and apart from G, its the best. It will never be a G of course.

This is just so typical "Mine is bigger than yours" stuff. I don't know where you get your TLC info from? Maybe you have never owned one? The G-wagen is a decent vehicle but a proper built TLC will definitely out perform a G-wagen off road, any day of the week. I would put my 100 series behind that. As for strength, the 100 series frame is much stronger than even an 80 series, the engine has much more power and the transmission is heavier duty. Give me the cash to build my 100 up the way I like, triple locked etc and meet me at the trail. Try to follow.
:ylsmoke:

PS- Gotta love stirring **** up hahaha

[LC/LR4Life]

Toyota fans come to a G Wagen thread and start comparing their vehicle to the G, then they try and make it right by justifying their behavior. There is a seperate Toyota thread running at this forum, they are welcome to post about their favorite vehicle there. No need to come raining down a G Wagen thread and start a comparison war.

If I as a G Wagen owner praise my vehicle and call it the best, most durable and reliable off roader ever built (which in reality it is notwithstanding) on a thread dedicated to the G Wagen, I have every right to do so and no Toyota or any other fanboi has the right to rain on my parade provided I don't bring any direct comparison. Also there is no reason to make any direct comparison because the others are simply not in the class of the G.




So you would rather have all your G-Wagen friends sit around and tell you how wonderful your G-Wagen is over a TLC, yet you don't want to answer to any TLC owners for your bad-mouthing of THEIR favorite vehicle? Sounds so snobbish to me. If you can't stand the heat, STFU.
:coffeedrink:

[Gurkha]

I can stand it well, don't you worry, its the Tonka boyz who have the issue. Seems like I have rattled one, well you have the choice to STFU. Again, this is a G thread, we are here cause we own these vehicles, admire them and consider them to be the best on earth, some of us myself inclufed are also ex Tonka Toy owners. The dising started with Toyota boyz talking about how a Tonka would eat a G with lockers and not otherwise and ruined a perfectly good thread.

[dclee]

The dising started with Toyota boyz talking about how a Tonka would eat a G with lockers and not otherwise and ruined a perfectly good thread.

Wow, this guy is unbelievable! Hey Gurkha, I don't know if you have selective memory or what, but reading is FUNdamental! Go back and read my previous post, then go back and read post #15 in this thread, where you start harping on how weak the Cruiser is. There was no problem with this thread until you made that post. The finger pointing starts by looking in the mirror. But I accept some responsibility for not having the good sense to back down when it became obvious this was no longer an intellectual debate.

edit: BTW, "Toyota boyz"??? What are you, 15 years old? First of all, you don't own and wheel both trucks. I do. Secondly, you mistakenly compare a G to an FJ Cruiser! I just can't help but laugh at that one! Should I then compare a Land Cruiser to a GLK? I swear, this is no longer a debate, it's like talking to some of my wife's middle school students. IOW, a waste of time.

G-Force and others, I humbly apologize for the turn this thread has taken. I will refrain from further comment, even though I know the insults are coming. Asbestos suit on!

[mrbishi]

my god give it a rest everyone - Gurkha and the Toyota people please stop posting in this thread full stop. It's getting REALLY annoying. If you don't have anything to add about G-Forces rig DON'T POST AT ALL!!!

Where are the mods when we need them!!!!

[Gurkha]

Wow, this guy is unbelievable! Hey Gurkha, I don't know if you have selective memory or what, but reading is FUNdamental! Go back and read my previous post, then go back and read post #15 in this thread, where you start harping on how weak the Cruiser is. There was no problem with this thread until you made that post. The finger pointing starts by looking in the mirror.

edit: BTW, "Toyota boyz"??? What are you, 15 years old? First of all, you don't own and wheel both trucks. Secondly, you mistakenly compare a G to an FJ Cruiser! I just can't help but laugh at that one! Should I then compare a Land Cruiser to a GLK? I swear, this is no longer a debate, it's like talking to some of my wife's middle school students. IOW, a waste of time.

G-Force and others, I humbly apologize for the turn this thread has taken. I will refrain from further comment, even though I know the insults are coming. Asbestos suit on!

So now the insults are getting personal. My response was to the Toyota guy declaring on reliability and off road ability of the G vis a vis a Toyota with lockers.

Now go back to elementary school kiddo and try and look at all the posts, you will see how one of you Toyota boyz came around and ruined this entire thread.

I apologize to G Force as this thread is totally ruined but then its about G Wagen and Toyota has no place here, no matter what. Time and again, Toyota boys keep responding with crud like 278mm of ground clearance Toyota with lockers running circles around the G Wagen. They have a place to write that and thats the Toyota thread, certainly not a thread about G Wagen.

This truly needs to be stopped, Toyota fans should post on their thread as we G fans do. This is my last post regarding this and mods must take notice now. Please limit Toyota fans to their own thread where they are free to bash others or praise their own.

[mrbishi]

http://austrekkers.net/forum/images/smilies/Extras/doh.gif

[Christian]

As an outsider reading this thread it makes me sad to see what it has developed in to. An innocent question "Would you all who have G-wagons rate the reliabilty better than a Land Cruiser?"(#12) has turned this in to something ugly.

Gurkha, YOU are the main flamer, you started this, and continued it again and again, and you have done this in other threads too! It is you who call Toyotas Tonka toys and Toyota drivers Tonka Boyz thereby taking every reasonable discussion down in the gutter. I have not seen others make any references to sausages, ill prepared cabage or small men with funny mustages at the expence of either the G or you.
It is you who acts like a religious celot in your praising of the G-wagen at the expence of others. It is never pretty to see somebody trying to climb a bit higher by treading on others!

And now you try to act like you did not have a part in it. As for excluding others, well beware, it might be you who are banned, as I recall it has happened before right?

[Gurkha]

As an outsider reading this thread it makes me sad to see what it has developed in to. An innocent question "Would you all who have G-wagons rate the reliabilty better than a Land Cruiser?"(#12) has turned this in to something ugly.

Gurkha, YOU are the main flamer, you started this, and continued it again and again, and you have done this in other threads too! It is you who call Toyotas Tonka toys and Toyota drivers Tonka Boyz thereby taking every reasonable discussion down in the gutter. I have not seen others make any references to sausages, ill prepared cabage or small men with funny mustages at the expence of either the G or you.
It is you who acts like a religious celot in your praising of the G-wagen at the expence of others. It is never pretty to see somebody trying to climb a bit higher by treading on others!

And now you try to act like you did not have a part in it. As for excluding others, well beware, it might be you who are banned, as I recall it has happened before right?

Please check the thread again at who started it, the Tonka toy reference came when direct, derogatory comparisons were made by Toyota guys at the G and Gurkha quoting my post. If I praise the G Wagen like a Zealot, its because this thread is dedicated to the G Wagen and not Toyota Land Cruiser. Sausages, Cabbages, small men with funny mustache, are those stereotypes about Germans? I guess another Toyota boy got hurt, go fix idler arm or weld that cracked chassis. Now you attack German race directly pulling this thread down to a level lower than any, no one attacked Japanese race here including myself.

[LC/LR4Life]

Regardles Ghurka the Land Cruiser will out wheel a G-Wagen any day of the week. Just watching your video post earlier with the Red G-Wagen on trail with those Land Rovers shows how the G-Wagen has no articulation. Furthermore you wouldn't have all these LC owners jumping in here except that you insult the Land Cruiser and expect nobody to say anything. Got news for you, Land Cruiser owners are rabid, so be careful of their bite.

Now back to the G-Wagen build.....

[Root Moose]

This thread needs more cow bell.

If you don't have anything to directly say about G-Force's truck then STFU.

I suppose at this point the thread might as well be deleted anyway - unless a mod wants to trim/edit with extreme prejudice.

[39Ronin]

The only comment that seems to bother me is when people talk about how LC are widely used by Nato and throughout Africa, rather than a compliment to the strength of the LCs I think it is more of a price point issue that makes them the choice. If G's were the same price as LCs we would see alot more in service. The Toyota seems like good value for your money. The HZJ77 being one of my favorites, but to say LC's wheel cricles around G's or G's outwheel LCs is laughable. Don't forget the driver is the most important equation here when we are splitting hairs about which vehicle is the end all be all.:smiley_drive:

[datrupr]

*Soapbox/On*

OK, one more time. This thread needs to get back on track! I have never wheeled a G and I have never wheeled an LC. I like them both. I think they are both just as capable. And for my needs, a 3rd gen Montero with unibody and IRS works beautifully. Anyone want to flame about that in this thread too? This is rediculous. What has this board turned into? The level of disrespect brought on to G-force's thread in inconceiveable. The original question was posed to G-Force (who has owned many G's) was if he felt the reliability on the G's was good (a very valid and good question). And then it went straight down hill form there. Please, lets get this back on track. I don't care who "thinks" their truck is better. I love them all and want to look at and learn about them all. I want to see them built up and watch the build up process (despite the brand, I learn a lot and get some great ideas from different buil up's). This is turning into some of the LR threads. It is getting rediculous. If you like your brand and are blind to the attributes of all others then you should not post anything. The reason behind ExPo is that we are all interested in vehicle dependant travel, type of vehicle being a non-factor. We need to get back to that level. Please.

Also, Ronin, you are right, the driver is about 90% of any vehicles capabilities.

G-force, please tell us more and lets get this thread back on track.

Mods, can we please help by editing this thread to bring it back to where it should be?

Thank you.

*Soapbox/Off*

[snyder.hunter]

*Soapbox/On*

OK, one more time. This thread needs to get back on track! I have never wheeled a G and I have never wheeled an LC. I like them both. I think they are both just as capable. And for my needs, a 3rd gen Montero with unibody and IRS works beautifully. Anyone want to flame about that in this thread too? This is rediculous. What has this board turned into? The level of disrespect brought on to G-force's thread in inconceiveable. The original question was posed to G-Force (who has owned many G's) was if he felt the reliability on the G's was good (a very valid and good question). And then it went straight down hill form there. Please, lets get this back on track. I don't care who "thinks" their truck is better. I love them all and want to look at and learn about them all. I want to see them built up and watch the build up process (despite the brand, I learn a lot and get some great ideas from different buil up's). This is turning into some of the LR threads. It is getting rediculous. If you like your brand and are blind to the attributes of all others then you should not post anything. The reason behind ExPo is that we are all interested in vehicle dependant travel, type of vehicle being a non-factor. We need to get back to that level. Please.

Also, Ronin, you are right, the driver is about 90% of any vehicles capabilities.

G-force, please tell us more and lets get this thread back on track.

Mods, can we please help by editing this thread to bring it back to where it should be?

Thank you.

*Soapbox/Off*

Amen! Back to the original question. This is going to sound so weird but I've only owned G Wagens my entire life. Provided I've been driving for four years now hehe. My first was an 81 300GD SWB, super super reliable and so much fun. I consistently got 20-24 mpg and it NEVER broke down on me. My next was an 84 280GE (6 cylinder gas engine - piece of ****). The motor overheated and blew a headgasket. So we canned that motor and did a proper turbo diesel swap and I've been returning awesome gas mileage 25+ mpg. This engine is freakishly efficient and powerful.

Anyway, yes the G is a GREAT car in terms or reliability. Parts are expensive (some of the most expensive cars in the expediton world i'd assume), but they are all of high quality. I love my G's. If anyone has any questions at all, feel free to PM me; be more than happy to share my stories and experience with them.

[Scott Brady]

WOW, there is some serious misinformation and brand-fueled ignorance spewed in this thread.

Here are the facts:
A vehicle is evaluated on several criteria, not just one. This is particularly true when considering an overland vehicle. I have a G-Wagen and have owned, wheeled, raced many Toyotas, including the 80 and 70 series.

Capability: Tie
To say that a G-Wagen is more capable on the trail than an 80 or 70 series Land Cruiser is absolutely false. An 80 and a G-Wagen is essentially the same, both in design and in use. The G has a slight advantage in sand with the ability to perform a rolling (5mph) hi to low range gear change, but other than that, they will be exactly the same. The 80 series is more stable, the G has faster acting lockers. The G has a better departure angle, the 80 has better differential clearance - splitting hairs. The Jeep Unlimited will run circles around both.

Durability: G-Wagen- Barely

The G-Klass is build to a higher degree of durability, with larger axles, heavier frame, larger components overall for the GVWR. This comes at a cost in purchase price, curb weight and poor fuel economy (yes, there is a truck that gets WORSE fuel economy than the 80 series).

Reliability: Land Cruiser

Sure, the G-Klass is reliable, but even the most basic understanding of automotive manufacturing proves that it is impossible for the G-Wagen to be more reliable than the 70 series. This is by nature of the assembly process, the G being built in small volumes, by hand. No matter how good the workers are, there are variables impossible to control. Though reliable, the Gs failure modes will be less predictable. Toyotas are build under the TMS, the best in the world. Reliability issues will always be more predictable with Toyota. Based on the service history of my 463, the G-Wagen does have more issues than a comparable 70 series.

But, for the sake of argument, lets assume that a 70 series and G-Wagen 461 are exactly the same reliability. Then why would the Toyota win? Serviceability! Go to any developing country in the world, and there will be 70 series trucks running around and a dealer network and mechanics to service them. Fact.

There is a difference between durability and reliability. Durability is the designed ratings and construction of the individual components. Reliability is the workmanship, the assembly, the long-term service of the various systems without failure.

People are passionate about their trucks, and they want to "prove" that their purchase decision, or brand is the best. The fact is that no one truck is perfect. The Jeep is more capable on the trail than the G or TLC, yet the G is more durable than either and the TLC is more reliable and serviceable than them all. Pick your flavor.

The real advantage of the G-Wagen from my perspective is the fit-finish, durability, balance of road/trail performance and that it is so unique. The G-Wagen gets us the classic design and uniqueness of the Defender, but the build quality of a Toyota. For me, that is worth the price of admission ;)

[Scott Brady]

Combining the various posts from those with TLC and G colored glasses ;)

[4Rescue]

HAHHAHAHAHAHAA When I saw this I thought that G-Force had given up and just changed the name of the thread :D Well done, I felt sorry for G-Force's build thread.

Cheers

Dave

[Gurkha]

This link says all about G Wagen service.

http://www.4x4abc.com/Carlos_adventures/MB_road_side_long.html

And yes, definitely plenty of misinformation, both sides are guilty, myself included and yet I will repeat, G Wagen rules supreme due to many facets not present in its competitors.

[Gurkha]

The only comment that seems to bother me is when people talk about how LC are widely used by Nato and throughout Africa, rather than a compliment to the strength of the LCs I think it is more of a price point issue that makes them the choice. If G's were the same price as LCs we would see alot more in service. The Toyota seems like good value for your money. The HZJ77 being one of my favorites, but to say LC's wheel cricles around G's or G's outwheel LCs is laughable. Don't forget the driver is the most important equation here when we are splitting hairs about which vehicle is the end all be all.:smiley_drive:

Very good point on the price factor, that has deterred even those who have yearned for this vehicle and are capable of showing of its prowess off road. Many fear to take a US$80,000+ vehicle in trails for the exact same reason. I am not innocent, I do more off roading with my Gurkha than with my G300 for the very same reason.

[dclee]

Thanks Scott! A well-reasoned response.

[Pokey]

This thread should be edited to include:

Post#1.- with a little more specificity as to intended purpose and cost parameters.

Post#54- by Scott highlighting relative differences with respect to the difference between "reliability" "durability" and how both vehicles fit into those categories. (in a cursory more overview type way which hopefully would lead to some more detailed "examination" vs. "bashing".)

added to the above it would be nice to examine a few of the main weaknesses/owner complaints of each--ie.
--80series HG issue.
--80 series departure angles
--80 series non-diesel option in US.

---G series articulation
---G series initial cost-costs of ownership-repair etc
--- aftermarket support /performance enhancment cost etc

POST #1 didnt really highlight the parameters of cost and intended use ie (expedition,rough expedition,onroad-offroad dual useability etc). Not factoring in cost is fine for Saudi Sheiks---but for 99% of the real world- cost to performance is probably the main factor in the decision making and comparison process. Obviously more focused 'intended use' details may help.

In many forums that ive noticed- cost to performance is glossed over. Comparing a $80k new stock vehicle to a $10k-100,ooo mile vehicle is useless. Likewise comparing a stock vehicle to a slightly or heavily modded vehicle is also equally useless UNLESS you start to factor in "cost" and "intended use" parameters.

I wish post #2 was- "whats your intended use that you are examining these two vehicles within" and "do you want to put x-$$$ into either? or leave stock"

[I Leak Oil]

I think I'm lost...This sure seems like it should belong in the Land Rover section. O.K., I'll go away now....:peepwall:

[Scott Brady]

Interestingly, the new 78 series and the 461 G-Klass are closer in price than expected. Both are quite expensive for a work truck. i.e. $50,000

It is the G55 and the older Europa trucks that are way up there on price.

[G-force]

Wow:Wow1:

I just read this whole tread, and it seems to be in order with an apology. After seeing the aftemath of my answer to a simple question, i should have known that the answer was petrol on a fire! Did not know at all that it could turn into this.

Do agree on a lot of the arguments, but it should not come to this form of discussion. As i read trough the end of the tread, it seems to blow over, and that sounds good to me.

And to all of you who were afraid of my disaperance, i was just a bit oqupied for a few weeks. Rather strange to see whats happened during my time off. But i love this forum. It seems to offer me all the info i need, to build me an capable adventure truck, with capable off road abilities. Paralell to the build up of my truck, im planning a small trailer, to pull behind the G.

Itching to get started!!

Thanks everyone. Keep it interesting, as always:elkgrin:

[upcruiser]

Well handled Scott. Some major chest pumping going on in this thread. I think what it boils down to between the TLC and the G wagen is which one YOU like. They both are excellent in many facets and they both make their owners proud. Brand loyalty is like politics or religion these days... sheesh. There are some great vehicles out there that you are missing out on if you have a close minded disposition on brands. I feel bad for those people as they will likely never try some of the good stuff.

For the record, my FJ80 has over 200,000 miles on the clock, 100,000 of which have been either offroad or fully loaded driving crosscountry to some location to explore offroad. It has been an incredible truck and I'll admit that I'm not the best person on upkeep, but despite this it just keeps chugging along. Sounds like the G Wagen is in the same class and in fact I almost bought a 280G 5 years ago, the only things that stopped me was rust, $$ of parts combined with availability. It had the exotic factor, capablity, and prestige, but for me, it was a choice to stay with the more ordinary and practical vehicle. I probably would have been happy either way.

Buy what you love, just don't love what you buy too much! :victory:

[roscoFJ73]

My facts are poor because they don't reflect the love of your life TLC in good light. Well I am an ex TLC owner. I never said the H series Hino engines are inferior in any sense, however they are not MB and not all MB engines come close to the legend of the two I mentioned. That goes to show your knowledge on MB. FYI, there was a massive recall on one of the H series engines, good old Toyota played it down initially, then when lawsuits piled, they went and quietly did the job. The engines would have premature crank bearing failure due to design. It affected late 80s TLCs. ]

Can you give me a link to this "massive recall" and the law suits that piled up?

Im not sure what you mean by a "H series engine" There were a few with H in the code but they are not all from the same series.
A 2H engine bears no relation to a 1HZ or 1HD FTE .

Your posts seem to be a collection of internet chatter with very little 1st hand knowledge.

They tried selling the Gwagon against the landcruiser in Australia.
Compared to the Landcruiser,it was too small,too slow and too expensive.
It was great offroad but not much chop when you have 2000klms of highway ahead of you with the wife and kids on board

[charlieaarons]

The main bearing thing for the 1HD-T engine in 90-95 HDJ80s was a real, legitimate problem. Naturally Toyota blamed it on the oil, everyone else blamed it on Toyota. It's one reason we have the JASO DH-1 oil spec. (I spent a lot of time this summer teaching myself about motor oil and diesel emission specs).
http://www.markerink.org/WJM/HTML/80bigend.htm
It only affected 12 Valve (not 24 valve) turbo direct injection versions of the H engine. One of the fascinating footnotes to this saga is that people (mainly Australians) who put aftermarket turbos on their 12 valve indirect injection naturally aspirated 2Hs didn't have unusual amounts of main bearing problems.

Markerink's huge file is always interesting:
http://www.markerink.org/WJM/HTML/main_4x4.htm

As far as this whole crazy thread in general, I have a very high opinion of Landcruisers and also Mercedes vehicles especially their trucks of course. It's too bad you can't get Unimogs, diesel Gs, and especially 70 series Landcruisers in this country.

Charlie

[Gurkha]

Thank you Charlie, I rate the HINO engine to be excellent and I use the W04D on my Nissan Patrol. Its very well made but intolerant to bad maintenance. Unlike the cast iron head OM616/617, HINO engine doesn't take well to overheating. This is common in vehicles with HINO engines operated by the Indian army in the highest point on earth that is Leh and Ladakh.

G Wagen also comes in LWB which compares favorably with the Toyota TLC but the TLC is more on road worthy and comfortable, G Wagen is skittish at high speeds.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_ncvkU4mFUsE/R1liE1GEgvI/AAAAAAAAAYQ/40Npm0D0s7A/Jonga.jpg

[roscoFJ73]

The main bearing thing for the 1HD-T engine in 90-95 HDJ80s was a real, legitimate problem. Naturally Toyota blamed it on the oil, everyone else blamed it on Toyota. It's one reason we have the JASO DH-1 oil spec. (I spent a lot of time this summer teaching myself about motor oil and diesel emission specs).
http://www.markerink.org/WJM/HTML/80bigend.htm
It only affected 12 Valve (not 24 valve) turbo direct injection versions of the H engine. One of the fascinating footnotes to this saga is that people (mainly Australians) who put aftermarket turbos on their 12 valve indirect injection naturally aspirated 2Hs didn't have unusual amounts of main bearing problems.

Markerink's huge file is always interesting:
http://www.markerink.org/WJM/HTML/main_4x4.htm

As far as this whole crazy thread in general, I have a very high opinion of Landcruisers and also Mercedes vehicles especially their trucks of course. It's too bad you can't get Unimogs, diesel Gs, and especially 70 series Landcruisers in this country.

Charlie

Ive read all that,several times. Still waiting on the "massive recall" and the law suits that piled up links.

[charlieaarons]

Ive read all that,several times. Still waiting on the "massive recall" and the law suits that piled up links.

To my knowledge there never was a recall. That's all I'm going to say.

Charlie

[Chas Stricker]

Soooooo, with the 617a you can get 20-25 mpg? Is it driveable power wise? Keep in mind I drive a slooooooow truck. My wife drives a ML and I'm looking at a G to replace it so I can do the work on it. Is the above mileage for the wagen? Thanks guys,
Chas

[Gurkha]

The W04D in the Patrol pictured above. The engine is truly amazing, even after 6000 miles, the oil hardly goes dark. Even in -5C weather the engine starts in quarter turn, there are no glow plugs or block heater in it. Has done 140,000 miles and still runs like a champ.

[zimm]

assuming TMS ='s TPS, thats a system of "waste" management. the quality comes from what the company will tolerate from its suppliers in the TPS chain.

if you took all the suppliers of defender parts and instituted TPS at LR, you'll still have a defender and it wont be any more reliable or predictable than the one built under a "buy a part and store it in a warehouse" method.

and TPS has it limitations. try being a small upstart builder of vehicles and getting toyota to supply the drivetrains. a lot of the resistance is due to TPS friction. GM.... they got a warehouse full. deals will be cut.




my kinda thread.