Campfires! What, Where and When?

[Boston Mangler]

Ok, we were recently in DV and had some folks giving us some crap for having firewood saying that fires are strictly forbidden and such.

On my map is says that GROUND fires are prohibited.

I took that as fires on the ground, as to not catch and spread.

We brought a steel drum (with feet on it so its not on the ground) and burned the wood in that. We packed most of the larger (burnt) pieces out with us and buried the ashes. All flames were contained at all times.

I dont see any problems with this. Does anyone else?

I am curious what the proper procedure is here.

Every book, pamphlet, guide i have on DV says something a little different, but does not say the word "Prohibited" anywhere.!

Whats the real deal and where are ya getting that info!!

Thanks

:campfire: :1888fbbd: :camping:

[articulate]

Good questions. If you ever wonder, simply call the ranger office at the park you want to visit. Specifically though:
The NPS tends to differentiate between camping in established campgrounds and camping in the backcountry.
For instance, there are several established campgrounds within DV:
http://www.nps.gov/deva/planyourvisit/camping.htm (http://www.nps.gov/deva/planyourvisit/camping.htm)

And for backcountry camping in DV:
http://www.nps.gov/deva/planyourvisit/upload/Backcountry%20Camping.pdf

According to these sources, campfires are prohibited unless in one of the fire pits in one of the established campgrounds. This rule tends to be pretty standard within National Parks. There might be an exception out there that I don't know of.

Hope it helps, bro!

Mark
:campfire:

[Boston Mangler]

Hey Mark

Excellent Links! That clears things up quite a bit! I apprecite it!

I have always thought of "Backcountry" as only accessable by foot and not 4x4 trails.

I guess Backcounty in this case means anything not "Established" as a campground? :rolleyes:

Thanks for the reply! I will look into this some more!

Cant go camping without :campfire:

[articulate]

Actually, they also set boundaries to demarkate backcountry from...uh, whatever non-backcountry is. It might be on that map.

:rockon:

[Boston Mangler]

Actually, they also set boundaries to demarkate backcountry from...uh, whatever non-backcountry is. It might be on that map.

:rockon:

Thanks Mark

Yeah, we saw "Wilderness Boundary" signs and we were "inside" of them

Wilderness Boundary, Backcountry Boundary, geeeeeez

:campfire: :campfire: :campfire: :campfire: :campfire:

[Steve Curren]

If you have to have a fire, check out the ones with fake logs and propane. I used that type on the North Rim in the backcountry and the Rangers who came by liked it and gave no grief. I bought mine at Sportsman's Warehouse.

:campfire:

[Boston Mangler]

If you have to have a fire, check out the ones with fake logs and propane. I used that type on the North Rim in the backcountry and the Rangers who came by liked it and gave no grief. I bought mine at Sportsman's Warehouse.

:campfire:

That is actually an Awesome idea! I wonder if they have a semi-realistic portable one, that sure would solve the issue of lugging around all that damn firewood! :D

Do they throw off much heat?

:campfire: :campfire: :campfire: :campfire: :campfire: :campfire:

[calamaridog]

If you have to have a fire, check out the ones with fake logs and propane. I used that type on the North Rim in the backcountry and the Rangers who came by liked it and gave no grief. I bought mine at Sportsman's Warehouse.

:campfire:

An excellent idea.

[Scenic WonderRunner]

I did a quick search because I got curious.....and this popped up.

I'm no expert on these at all and have never used one.


"Campfire in a Can"................ (http://www.campfireinacan.com/shopping.htm)


http://www.campfireinacan.com/images/GAS_CAN_white.jpg


Here is another one.................. http://www.portafire.net/



.

[Steve Curren]

The unit is totally portable and gives out enough heat for a moderate night, nothing like a real rip roaring fire but it gives the illusion of a real one and is simple to operate. The box it comes in is 18" square and fits nicely in the back of the Jeep or the Chaser. Check out Camp Chef site for another one..

[Scenic WonderRunner]

I just searched for a budget priced unit and found this one for $59 bucks.


Camp Chef Stove with Campfire Logs - 60K BTU High Pressure....... (http://www.sierratradingpost.com/p/,73760_Camp-Chef-Stove-with-Campfire-Logs-60K-BTU-High-Pressure.html?cm_mmc=PaidPlacement-_-Shopping-_-WSHOP6-_-Camp_Chef_Stove_with_Campfire_Logs_-_60K_BTU_High_Pressure)

http://www.sierratradingpost.com/eccStoreFront/stp/product_images/73760/F_73760_1.jpg




details.............

Camp Chef Stove with Campfire Logs - 60K BTU High Pressure
$59.95 $120.00 Save 50% Item #73760


Closeouts. Camp Chef stove includes the high-output single burner stove plus the stovetop campfire accessory. Just because there's no firewood doesn't mean you can't have a campfire.
Includes UL approved hose and regulator
Sturdy four-leg base reverses for compact travel and storage
60K BTU
Stove diameter: 15"
Stove height: 16"
Stove weight: 13 lb. 8 oz.
Log top diameter: 14-5/8"
Log top weight: 13 lb. 6 oz.
Materials:
Cast iron stove
Coated iron log top and ceramic logs
Polyester carry bag for campfire log top
Closeouts. China.
Recommended for use with cookware with an effective diameter of 13".
Must ship UPS ground, within the continental U.S. only.

[Boston Mangler]

Very Cool!

Thanks guys! There are a lot of options out there! I am definitely going to look into this more!

:campfire: :campfire: :campfire: :campfire: :campfire:

[Scenic WonderRunner]

Kevin.........

You are so good!........I know you could make a better one for even less $$$$

:camping:






Very Cool!

Thanks guys! There are a lot of options out there! I am definitely going to look into this more!

:campfire: :campfire: :campfire: :campfire: :campfire:

[Robthebrit]

very cool (or hot???) guys.. how many typically carry a large propane tank when camping? I know Scott does but I was trying to get away from gas and move to liquid fuel but maybe a larger refillable tank is the way to go.

For you folks that have the larger tanks, how does it work out? Do you connect one thing at a time or split the hose multiple times?

Rob

[Boston Mangler]

Yeah, i agree carrying a large propane tank is a PITA, but for a longer trips, it would be easier then trying to lug around all of the wood!

A propane tank takes up MUCH less space then wood for 4-5 campfires! And its cleaner! :D

AND, it could be used for cooking and such.

Wood is expensive if you dont have a good source and most of it burns fast!

If the propane idea puts off enough heat, it might be "Ideal"

[Wanderlusty]

I may be playing around reading between the lines, but on that second PDF link, it did say that camp stoves and charcoal grills are allowed. Now wood in a barrel is not charcoal, I give you, but if you pack in your own wood and pack out the remnants, the difference is in name only.

I would expect the purpose of the rule is to keep from littering the landscape with rogue fire rings, and the method you used follows the spirit of that.

Of course following the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law doesn't preclude getting in trouble with the law....

The gas logs seems a good compromise, and I imagine that despite how big they are, they can't be any bigger than firewood and a barrel.

Soo....in the end, maybe that is just the better choice anyway.

But I do wish that things like this were spelled out with a bit more clarity.

[njtaco]

very cool (or hot???) guys.. how many typically carry a large propane tank when camping? I know Scott does but I was trying to get away from gas and move to liquid fuel but maybe a larger refillable tank is the way to go.

For you folks that have the larger tanks, how does it work out? Do you connect one thing at a time or split the hose multiple times?

Rob

I have begun carrying a 20LB tank recently...I was having a hard time justifying the throwaway tanks ending in a landfill, and they are costly.

I run a "tree" with a lantern on top, camp stove with a short hose, and sometimes a gas grill (small) on the third port.

I presume we don't need to discuss the drawbacks of propane in cold weather, as opposed to liquid fuel. I still have my white gas stoves and lanterns if I need them. Also, a 20LB tank of LP has an easier time of keeping up than a disposable in cold environs. I can't prove this on paper, but I do grill all winter! :eatchicke

[Steve Curren]

I have been using the larger tank for years with the "tree" and find it's very easy to haul and simple enough for even me to use. As for the fires, I asked the National Park Ranger about fires and cooking in the backcountry and the answer was that you and not use anything that made sparks. I was told that in a maintained campsite they have fire rings and BBQs for use.

[adventureduo]

Yeah DV is kinda funky about campfires that way. We were in Panamint Springs campground so it was cool for us to just about burn the place down. I could never understand why they even care about campfires out there as long as they have a ring around them. Not like there's anything but dirt to burn down.

[asteffes]

I think it's part of the Leave No Trace ethos. Regardless, showing that you're a safe campfire builder will go some ways to calming the authorities if you are questioned about your fire. As a Boy Scout, I was taught to always have a couple coffee cans full of dirt and water handy to quickly extinguish a fire or one that got out-of-hand. Also, it indicates a certain responsibility to others.

[Robthebrit]

I called the ranger and asked him, had quite a good conversation with him. He sees it both ways but has to play by the rules.

He agrees a fire in a container poses little or no threat and in death valley as there is little to burn from sparks. He did point out that earlier in the year, especially after a wet winter there is a lot more dry vegetation and more potential for a fire. By mid year the vegetation is bone dry and humidity very low which makes for ideal fire conditions easily started by a spark. A fire in death valley does not typically spread very far but it leaves a scorch mark that takes mother nature years to clean up.

Some of the rules come from its federal status and because its a wilderness area. Some of the rules are specific to death valley due to the speed at which nature can recover.

The rules in a wilderness area also very strict, technically you are not supposed to move anything and that includes rocks for a fire ring. If you did have a ground fire then you still have a scorch mark and while burying it gets rid of it you disturb the ground which also takes years to go away.

Vehicle traffic is not allowed in the wilderness but can drive through on existing roads (technically the roads and 100 feet each side are not part of the wilderness). Only a vehicle could reasonable carry supplies to make a fire, people traveling on foot or horse can go anywhere and they don't want fires where they cannot get to. People hiking are unlikely to be carrying their own firewood or the means to contain a fire, if fires were allowed this would be an invitation to make fire ring and find fire wood on the ground.

Ultimately, it would be difficult to make and enforce rules to cover all the circumstances so its easier just to say no fires. Its a clear rule and its easy to enforce.

I can see it from his point of view, while I think most people on this forum would do a good job of leaving no trace this unfortunately is not the way of the general public who go to these areas.

Rob

[awalter]

Rob,

Excellent post.

[calamaridog]

Ultimately, it would be difficult to make and enforce rules to cover all the circumstances so its easier just to say no fires. Its a clear rule and its easy to enforce.

I agree, and I'll add that it is the responsibility of the traveler to make sure they have the correct permits, etc. and know the rules for the area they are in. Most of us are guilty of a lapse at some point, I know I've made my fair share.

[Scenic WonderRunner]

During my recent Sept. '06 trip to AZ. Utah and Colorado I chose not to have any campfires.

I felt so bad about all the terrible fires during the fire season and I just didn't want to have an "incident" and somehow add to the problem. I was also alone most of the time and would have no help in case a fire got out of hand.

On my second night out on Cedar Mesa Utah......
In the pic you can see how I dragged a 200+ lb. log to a fire ring. I continued to look around for smaller pieces of wood but they had mostly been gathered up and used. I would have had to drag other large pieces of wood to get a fire going, which I could have done.....but this is not ideal....and could create a problem especially if the winds kicked up all of a sudden.

I had considered using the huge log as a backdrop for a smaller fire in front of it and hoping to burn it in half and push it all together (which I'm sure we all have done in our wilder days!). The huge log looks burnt in this pic but it not. Must be the lighting.

I chose not to have a fire that night or any other night on my trip. I decided I was fine with my Coleman Heater, and increased night vision for star gazing!

The point is.....I survived.

On Cedar Mesa Utah..........
http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i156/ScenicWonderRunner/2006_0919Summerinthesanjuans0026.jpg