Welding!

[Brian McVickers]

I've decided to start welding and I'm hoping that some of you can lend some advice. It seems there are a few people here who weld or know how to and make stuff for their rigs.

If it matters:
:box: I will be storing and using my equipment in a garage that has both 110v outlets and a 220v outlet for the washer/dryer.
:box: I have never welded before.
:box: I want to be able to weld steel and aluminum up to 1/4 inch thick.
:box: I want to be able to cut steel and aluminum up to 1/4 inch maybe even 1/2".
:box: Primary uses will be to fabricate stuff for my rig and eventually artwork and sculpture.
My first project, after I've practiced!, will probably be a rear bumper with swing arm for spare tire and jerry can!! :jumping:

I am considering two options:
A mig welder and a cutting torch or
An acetylene set-up that I can use as a cutting torch and welder.

I am also on a bit of a budget, so I've been looking for used equipment and also at Harbor Freight.
Unfortunately the Tig and plasma cutter are not an option.

So:
What type of equipment should I get?
What should I look for or beware with used equipment?
What should I look for or beware with new equipment?

Any other suggestions or advice is certainly welcome. :ylsmoke:

[erin]

I would probably try and find good used professional equipment and avoid Harbor Frieght. At the company I work for we have tried many of their products which seem at first to give great bang for the buck but just don't seem to last. I have had very good luck with the Lincoln welders that Home Depot sells for a reasonable price that last far beyond what they should. They also sell different kits and upgrades to handle different types of materials/or applications.

Hope this helps alittle.

[goodtimes]

The first thing you need to do, is lose your budget. I hate to say it, but if you want the ability to cut/weld up to 1/2" plate, it will not be cheap. It also will not be a quick project.

The first thing you should do is go talk to the local community college or trade school and see if they offer any welding classes. Learning from a professional will cut YEARS off of the learning curve. I have been welding for several years, and I still consider taking classes (if I could just find the time between paying the mortgage and working on my BSEE).

For equipment, go with name brand gear, plain and simple. Miller, Hobart, Lincoln are the big 3. My personal preference is Miller (btw, miller owns Hobart.....that is their "economy" brand...but still good machines). Lincolns are just as good, so it is a matter of features and color. If you want a MIG (very easy to learn on, compared to stick or TIG or oxy/acetelyne), you will need a machine that puts out 250 amps to get that 1/2" plate...so you are looking at ~$1700 if you watch for a good sale. You can buy attachements to make a mig weld aluminum pretty inexpensively (the spoolgun for my Millermatic 210 runs about $300, then I need to get a bottle of the mixed gas, reverse the polarity of the welder and I'm all set...easy process). The problem with MIG is that it doesn't leave nearly as nice of a weld as TIG. I only say this because you mention doing artwork. A TIG will give you infinately more control than a MIG, will give you a superior weld (astetically), and most TIG's will also double as a stick welder. The downside...a nice square wave TIG will run you 3x as much as a MIG. Consumables also cost more per foot of weld. A simple "buzz box", or stick welder is very inexpensive compared to a MIG or TIG, but they are difficult to learn on (again, take some classes, this will help you ALOT), don't give you as much control as a MIG or TIG (particularly when you are still learning), and generally splatter alot more, leaving a bigger mess to clean up. But the price is good, and they are very versatile...just buy the right electrode for the job, set the polarity you need, and go at it. Gas welding....as in oxy/acetelyne welding.....I know very few people who still do this, and I dont even know if they teach it anymore. But, some people swear by it. I know very little about it, so I can't really comment on it. The critical things to look at when buying welders...duty cycle (IMO 40% is bare minimum, 60% is better), this tells you how long the welder will run w/o having to stop and cool down. A 10% duty cycle means that it will weld for 1 out of every 10 minutes. 60% will run for 6 out of every 10 minutes. It is difficult for a fabricator to exceed 60%, unless you have a whole bunch of pre-cut pieces that are all set up in a jig. I usually find myself laying down a small bead (~10 seconds), stopping, moving to another location (to avoid warping the parts), which takes me 10 - 15 seconds, then another small bead....and so on. I have never exceeded the 60% on my miller. Next, look at output amps. Assuming you are getting ~28 - 30 volts, it is going to take 200 amps to weld 3/8" steel in a single pass, 250 amps for 1/2" (those are approximate numbers that will vary depending on wire speed, gas type, bevels on the working edge, etc., but are good for sizing the equipment you need to purchase). With a MIG, be sure to get something with steel drive rollers. And no matter which type you go with, get the 230v machine.

As for cutting, your gonna hate me for this....but don't waste your time with a torch. The price of plazma cutters is coming down, you can get set up to cut 1/2" plate for under $1100. The kerf is small and strait compared to oxy/acetelyne, the heat affected zone (HAZ) is generally very small (1/16" compared to 3/8 - 1/2") which equates to less grinding and less mess, and they are very simple to use. If you ever need to get into a tight spot, or cut something that you don't want to anneal (such as motor mounts, suspension mounting brackets, etc), the plazma cutter is the only way to go. The downside is that consumables are expensive ($35 per set)....but to be honest, I am still using the original set on my hypertherm 380...they are about 2.5 years old.

By far the most important thing, IMO, is to learn the process before you buy equipment. It will likely save you alot of $$$. Take the class! I cannot say it enough. Even with my welding ability (I have no problem welding roll cages, suspension components, etc.), I wish I would have taken the class. I would have started out at the level it took me years to achieve...meaning that right now I would be that much better. So take the class.

Take the class.

Take the class.

Take the class.

Take the class.

Take the class.

Take the class.













Take the class!!!!!


Seriously....take the class!

[erin]

Very good advice!!!

I too wish that I had some formal instruction, instead of just self taught.

[Suty]

I just got back from Urban Search and Rescue School, and we used a cutter down there I had never seen . Its called Petrogen , and it is Oxygen and Gasoline ( ya, I know sounds like a accident waiting to happen) it was tremendous and cuts like a knife. Cheaper than plasma and more mobile. Basiclally , looks like Oxy-Actelene from the Nozzle back, its when you get to the Bottles that it's different. 1 Large o2 Bottle and a little 3-5 Gallon gas can that you pressurize to 20 psi. Turn your o2 wheel a half a turn at the tip , turn the fuel on at the tip until you see a mist on the steel your cutting, then spark it up. Couple of seconds to allow the tip to warm and get the gas right, place the tip a inch or two from the metal , and when you see it begin to melt and pool , hit the oxygen lever and watch'r cut.
Anywho, just thought I would add a little to this post incase no one else hard heard of this either. Tu Compa, Suty

[Scott Brady]

I have a Lincoln 220v stick welder for the big stuff and a nice 120v Lincoln mig for everything up to 1/4". It welds great and was $500 at home depot.

I have a nice band saw for cutting stock.

A plasma cutter is next on my list :)

[Brian McVickers]

Thanks for all the input.

What a tremendous amount of information to digest!

My wife, Amy, keeps telling me to just take a class as you all suggested. I have been holding off and thinking I would use the class money to buy some used equipment and then teach myself. I guess I'll look and see what types of classes are offered.

Thanks again

[goodtimes]

Don't forget to consult your tax advisor, there are educational deductions to be had.

[otter]

Hello,
I have equipped my shop with mostly used equipment, found on government liquidation.com, newspaper classified, craigs list, and word of mouth.
Welder-Miller Goldstar 500amp TIG, traded for auto engine install
Plasma cutter-ThermoDynamics 4Xi, $450.00, Craigs list
Band saw-Delta 14", $400.00, E-bay
Radial arm drill press- Walker Turner $99.00, Govt. liquidation
Milling machine- Clausing, $1100.00, E-bay
Lathe-Craftsman/Atlas $0.00 salvage from scrap pile
Press- Harbor Freight 20ton, 199.00
Compressor- Campbell Hausfeld 5hp, $499.00
Cutoff Saw- Makita 12" dry cut $499.00 retail store
Belt sander-Burr-King $650.00 E-bay
Hand tools-SnapOn, Craftsman, and various other manufacturers, some new lots used.
Equipping a shop does not have to be prohibitively expensive, judicious use of alternative sources to acquire the tools is the key to reasonable cost control. The above are in my shop that measures 16'x26' and is dedicated to the shop concept. Welding is about 20% science, 70% technique and 10% style. If you learn to oxyacetylene weld you will be able to apply those basics to all the other forms of welding. There are limitless sources for oxy welding learning. The basics must be learned then it is endless practice to achieve an acceptable weld. I learned oxy welding in high school metal shop in 1972 and have been welding since. Steel, aluminum, stainless steel, titanium are a few of the stocks that I currently use. The local welding shop may offer basic welding classes, another possibility may be the community college also. Practice, practice practice on scrap material until you can produce decent welds, then practice some more.


:sunny:
eric

[Brian McVickers]

For anyone interested in welding study
This publishing company publishes the Naval training manuals and has them online. This link is to the Naval Welding Manual called Steelworker Volume One and along the left side of the page you will see links to thier many other subjects of publication.
You can purchase hard copies or just read them on line.

From what I have read so far they seem to be very complete and informative.


http://www.tpub.com/content/construction/14250/index.htm

:coffee: :coffee:

[Brian McVickers]

This is pretty cool!

This is an online machine shop with downloadable software. The idea is that you use the software to create what you want and then send them the design to have them make it. Personally if I need something machined I would rather support a local machine shop but the free CAD software is great! They even have an audio tutor to help you get started.


http://www.emachineshop.com/index.html

[MaddBaggins]

The only kind of welding I have done is oxy/acetylene. I was pretty good at it but it's been years since I have done it. Some day I will take a class and I am looking at a used mig.

[Ursidae69]

I think I'll take Brian's advice and look for a class so I can use my new toy more efficiently. :victory:

[calamaridog]

Allow me to be so bold to suggest you practice a WHOLE BUNCH before welding a bumper with a tire carrier or jerry can holder. Both of those items can cause the vehicle behind you to have a very bad day when they separate from the vehicle.

[Brian McVickers]

C'mon are you kidding!
I just got a great 220v stick welder a week and a half ago.
Picked up some welding rods at a local garage sale, about 15lb of rods for 50 cents for the whole bunch, they're a bit chalky though and the flux is crumbling off some of them but still a great deal!
Went the the scrap yard that same afternoon, started welding the next day.
So far the bumper itself and the mounting brackets are complete and the swing away tire carrier is next. Should have it all complete in about another week. This is great, I've never welded before! :luxhello:

Just kidding! :xxrotflma

Brian will be happy that I am looking at a local college welding 101 class that begins next spring.

I did however get a nice stick welder but have not purchased any welding rods yet because I am still learning about them. I want to make sure I get the appropriate rod for the materials I will be welding. I'll start out by reading a lot and practicing the basics. I can't wait till I actually stick two random pieces of metal together. I'll probably be running all over the place to friends and family "hey look what I can do!" and I'll be sure to post a picture.

I'm sure to have lots of questions for you all as I figure this out! :ylsmoke:

[Scott Brady]

I'll probably be running all over the place to friends and family "hey look what I can do!" and I'll be sure to post a picture.


:xxrotflma :luxhello:

[datrupr]

You know, I don't think I have spoken up on this thread yet, but I too want to learn to weld. I told my wife this last night when we were watching Discovery Channel and she just gave me this blank look for about 5 minutes, then she said to me that I was crazy.

Now I am sure about it, I wanna learn how to weld. :D

[Scott Brady]

Yeah, welding is one of those primal tendancies. It involves FIRE, and sparks fly everywhere... Even my neighbor, who is an accountant looked in my garage and said, "oh, you have a WELDER", with a little grin curling from the corner of his mouth...

Argh argh argh :ar15:

Here is Bajataco a few nights ago during out "super trick" winch install session:

http://www.expeditionportal.com/portal_temp/chris_and_sparks.JPG

[goodtimes]

Lesson #1: Protect your eyes, or something WILL get stuck in them. Then you will ignore it and it will start to rust. Then, the next day you will be in the local clinic while a doctor literally drills out the piece of metal (it almost looks like Chris is wearing safety glasses....kinda hard to tell...if he is, good on 'ya!)

Lesson #2: Protect your ears. Grinding will create enough noise to permanently damage your ear drums. You only get one set...protect 'em.

Lesson #3: Hold the grinder in such a fashion as to throw the sparks away from the band saw and the truck (good job in the pic), but be sure to also direct the sparks away from the beer. This will lead to tragedy if ignored.

Lesson #4: Don't move all your steel stock before you close on the house. The deal may fall through which leaves you in the house with no steel to build stuff out of. This is also very sad. You will have ample supply of beer, but no metal to burn.

[Ursidae69]

Lesson #1: Protect your eyes, or something WILL get stuck in them. Then you will ignore it and it will start to rust. Then, the next day you will be in the local clinic while a doctor literally drills out the piece of metal (it almost looks like Chris is wearing safety glasses....kinda hard to tell...if he is, good on 'ya!)

Lesson #2: Protect your ears. Grinding will create enough noise to permanently damage your ear drums. You only get one set...protect 'em.



Tsk, tsk, tsk!!! :exclaim:

No eye & ear protection, or even gloves! :clapsmile :shakin:

[datrupr]

Brain, sorry to hear the deal on your house didn't go through. But in this market there will be another buyer soon I am sure. ;)

[Scott Brady]

Chris was wearing eye protection. So was I. :cool: :clapsmile

[goodtimes]

Smart move Scott (and Chris). You only get one set......and I have found sunsets look better with both of 'em working properly.

I guess that is something that should be mentioned since this is a welding thread.....Please be sure you are using the appropriate shade of lens when welding. Not all lenses are created equil.......if you are going to be ARC welding (stick welding, SMAW), you can damage your eyes with less than a #12.....MIG and TIG you can get away with less tint, but personally, I only keep one hood around, so it has a 12 in it, this way I am covered no matter what process I use (despite the fact that I only have a MIG at home). If you are even in doubt, ask the guy at the welding supply house when you pick up your consumables, they will steer you in the right direction.

Also, auto-darkening helmets may seem overkill....but I gotta say, I bought one a couple years ago and I don't know how I lived without it! Kinda like going from a desktop computer to a laptop w/wireless.....

Now, how about some "finished" pics of the new version of the bajataco bumper?

[MaddBaggins]

Lesson #5 If you are wearing a button up shirt, make sure it's buttoned all the way up while welding or you will get sunburned. :smilies27

[vanguard]

I'm a welding newb. I probably have about 100 feet of experience and I was taught by my father-in-law. He is very good and did it professionally for a few years. Still, I'm a bit in front of you so I'll share what I know.

1) Stick welders make it difficult to produce good looking welds but they are typically very strong because getting good penetration is easy. They are also cheap. That is what I use. (Lincoln AC220 I think)

2) Mig welders are easier to make good looking welds with but they are more expensive and can produce weak but attractive welds in the hands of a novice.

3) Tig welders are typically for thinner materials such as sheet metal. They are very expensive too.

4) Welders can last a lifetime in a hobbiest's shop. Get a good version of whatever you choose.

5) Eye protection is serious when working with metal. I think everybody has done something around the house without proper saftey gear. Does anybody put on eye protection to hammer a nail? Working with metal is different. Metal shards and sparks fly everywhere. The weld is about 5,000 degrees. Even drilling is fairly dangerous. I like a full face mask like this one (http://www.wired-2-shop.com/joneakes/ProductDetail.asp?ProdID=133&nPrdImageID=&CatID=13). They are light and shards/sparks seem to find their way past regular saftey glasses.

6) For hearing, I bought a pack of 250 ear plugs for $20. They are great if you know how to put them in. For an extended session on the chop saw or grinder sometimes I'll double up. Double hearing protection just makes it more pleasent.

7) Heavy leather gloves are a must. Just but the best thing that Home Depot sells for about $15. You wear them for welding, and grinding but not drilling. They can grab and get you hurt.

8) Buy a soapstone marking tool. You'll be happy you did.

9) Jeans are good for welding, shorts are asking for trouble. If you jeans have big fuzzy holes at then knees (like most of my shop clothes) they *will* catch fire. Sometimes several times a day. Don't ask me how I know this. :eek:

The guys are grabbing me for lunch time. That's all for now.

[Brian McVickers]

Thanks Vanguard
I am slowly collecting all of the accessories I need and may be welding by the end of the month. My wife kind of wants to put my new-to-me welder that we just got under the tree for the holidays! Since I'm still setting up my workspace I figure that's ok and will be a fun addition to the gift giving entertainment of the season!

[Scott Brady]

Vangard,

Great advice! Thanks

[vanguard]

A few more metal working thoughts that might help you out.

* When drilling, the key is pressure not bit speed. I must have wasted $50 in bits before I learned to slow the drill down, keep it lubricated, and press harder. I use WD40 as the lube but if somebody has something better I'd listen. It's too bad that bit speed isn't good it's easy, just pull the trigger. Pressure is just hard work, especially if you're on your back under the truck. I find a cordless drill set to slow speed to be pretty good. Maybe even better than a corded drill.

* If you use a stick welder you'll be tempted to knock a little slag off without eye protection. Don't do it. We're talking about something like molten rock flying in unpredictable directions. (I know, this is sort of a duplicate but I'm hoping that you'll think of this when the urge hits you. :) )

* I find that a separate wire brush and hammer is much better than the wire brush/hammer combo tool.

* My favorite stick is the 7018. It splatters less and leaves a nicer looking weld. If the material I'm welding is especially yucky or even painted I use a 6018.

* Somewhere around 100 amps is good for general welding on bumpers/sliders with a 1/8" stick.

* (This is a good one.) If you have a hard time getting the arc to start, rub the stick on the concrete until more metal shows. If it still won't start turn up the amps.

* Too many amps will burn through the metal (which is tricky to fix). Not enough amps will give poor penetration and it will be hard to start the arc.

* If you have the budget, buying two 4 1/2" grinders is a great idea. One for grinding and one for cutting. The $40 dewalt grinder is a good choice. I must have 200 hours on mine and I love it. (I use it for woodworking too.)

* When you weld, the metal want to bend toward the weld. So if you weld a square tube to a plate it will bend over so that there is a gap on the side opposite the weld. For that reason, you should tack down opposite sides until all 4 are tacked. After that you can weld it fully. You might want to do a light weld, clean it up, then weld again to prevent the plate from warping.

* Know your welder's duty cycle. If you're like me you spend a lot more time setting things up than welding but sometimes I'll get all my tacks in place then really go at it for a while. When that happens I could exceed my welder's 2 out of 10 minute duty cycle if I wasn't aware of it. Shouldn't be a problem since I'm not going at 200 amps but it's good to be easy on the welder.

* Leave the welder on between welds. The fan is cooling things off.

Well, that's the basics. When you make something post some pics. :)

[goodtimes]

Something that took me awhile to realize with a ARC welder....it is much easier to strike an arc by rubbing the electrode on the work surface...like writing on a black board with a piece of chalk, not by tapping the work surface with the end of the electrode. 7018 is good general purpose rod....6010 has done well for me too....but in all honesty, if I can avoid the stick, I do. I'm much happier with my MIG.

If you are going to use a grinder alot...don't waste your time with cheap tools. I went through several Milwaukee's and a dewalt before I figured this out. For just a couple bucks more than a milwaukee, you can get a Metabo. Night and day difference in how smooth it runs, and how long is lasts. I was having motors put in the Milwaukees every 10 - 12 months...the metabo has been running for about 3 years now. Quality cutting wheels make a big difference too. Buy them from your local welding supply instead of home depot. They cost 25% more, last 100% longer, and run smoother.

[erin]

It's interesting that your Metabo lasted so long, I have found just the oppisite to be true, but in the granite business, we use grinders harder than anyone, plus the extreme dust factor. The biggest problem I had with the Metabo was bearing life, and accessiblility to parts. We switched to Makita 9564cv's 2 yrs ago and are really happy. The best thing is that the Makita is the same price if not cheaper and also vari-speed so that you can use 1 machine for everything. Plus it has a 12amp motor w/electronic brake to reduce kickback quite a bit. They are also much easier to find that Metabo's.
But to each his own. :)

[kevin]

I thought I would add one more thing to the saftey list, ear protection. Welding slag can get into your ear, especially if you are welding over head, (I learned this the hard way!) Also, I like to use automatic transmission fluid as a lubricant when drilling metal, it is designed to withstand high temps, and other lubricants like WD-40, are flamable.

[Brian McVickers]

Sweet! I stuck two pieces of metal together!!

I finally got around to setting up my stick welder.
I wanted to weld something but I did not have any raw metal around. My neighbor was throwing away this old iron chair that was painted so I used the grinder to cut it up into smaller pieces and then used an electric wire brush to quickly strip the paint. It wasn't too bad for practice material but I can see how good clean metal would be better.

It took a while of playing with the voltage levels but after a while I was able to make a bead, it was ugly but it stuck! Some of the metal was so thin that I burnt right through it if the voltage was too high.

So here are a few questions:

1- Is there a sure way to strike an arc? I could touch the rod to metal and no spark, other times it would spark even before I touched. Then sometimes it would spark and then get stuck!

2- How much does voltage have to do with the size rod you are using? I had a 1/16 and a 1/8 rod. The 1/16 was tough to strike an arc with 40V but at 75V it welded great but then again at 90+ Volts it would burn very quickly. Same with the 1/8 rod, It seemed as if you need at least 90V to even get an arc without getting stuck.

3- After welding a bit everything was black and dirty. I tried the wire brush and event the chipping hammer but never really got that shiny metal look I was expecting. How do you make things less messy or at least clean it up?

Thanks
Brian:ar15: :ar15: :victory:

[goodtimes]

The easiest way I know of to consistantly strike an arc, is to rub the end of the electrode on the metal....imagine writing on a black board with a piece of chalk.....also, take a look at the end of the electrode. Every so often I manage to get some of the flux to solidify at the end (basically covering it)....when you are running low voltage (for thin material), the flux can act as a insulator. At higher voltages it doesn't seem to be a problem (at least in my limited experience with a arc welder).

I'll leave your other questions to someone who actually has a clue about arc welding (I have half of a clue about running a MIG, and 1/3 of a clue about running a TIG....but that is about it).

[Brian McVickers]

Thanks,
I remember your advice from an earlier post about sometimes rubbing the electrode on the concrete to refresh the end. I tried that a few times and it worked well. I also tried running the rod along the metal trying to catch a spark but the downside of that is it is difficult to be precise with the weld as you are moving all over the place.

[Desertdude]

This welding DVD link (http://www.premierpowerwelder.com/learn_weld.html) popped up on another board thread - thought you might like it :)