loaded gun in the glovebox?

[BigAl]

I was having a discussion over lunch. My buddies premise is that it is legal to have a loaded gun stored in your glove box b/c it's an extension of your home. We are in PA. Does a concealed carry permit make a difference? Not interested in whether it's a good idea, only if it is legal and it what cirmumstance?

[RMP&O]

I think it varies state to state. In general a big no go though.....a few states it may not be a problem but overall it will get you in trouble.

I would think a concealed permit would make a difference but I am only guessing....

[Mr. Leary]

Of course its legal in Texas. Active September 2007 it falls under the "Castle Laws" which extend your rights to protection of your home to your vehicle.

That being said, it is always a good idea to get a CHL. You may know the laws in your own state, but you may not be as familiar with the laws in other states, and are better protected with a CHL in your wallet. There are reciprocity rules and arrangements between CHL states.

Details here. (http://http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/reciprocity.htm)

More details here. (http://http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/Federal/Read.aspx?id=59)

[DaveM]

I don’t believe there is any such thing as an extension of residence. In your vehicle, beyond your driveway, you are in public space not private. The glove box, if locked may be a suitable storage place for transporting a firearm. If unlocked it would amount to concealing a weapon IMO.

Edited to add: Texas and Alaska not withstanding ; )

[cruiseroutfit]

100% legal in Utah with or without a CWP. A little bit of the west still lives here.

You need to be extremely careful with the reciprocity of other states. For instance some states don't recognized the CWP's of a neighboring state, while others do.

[Street Wolf]

I don’t believe there is any such thing as an extension of residence. In your vehicle, beyond your driveway, you are in public space not private. The glove box, if locked may be a suitable storage place for transporting a firearm. If unlocked it would amount to concealing a weapon IMO.

Edited to add: Texas and Alaska not withstanding ; )

Perhaps in your state. However he was referring to Texas, which has the right idea.

[DaveM]

Perhaps in your state. However he was referring to Texas, which has the right idea.

We cross posted; I was actually replying to the original poster not the one above me. I knew about the Texas law, not the Utah one though. I guess what I'm saying is in the absence of a specific state law granting that right, then no it is not an extension your home and therefore concealment.

[cruiseroutfit]

I don’t believe there is any such thing as an extension of residence. In your vehicle, beyond your driveway, you are in public space not private. The glove box, if locked may be a suitable storage place for transporting a firearm. If unlocked it would amount to concealing a weapon IMO.

Edited to add: Texas and Alaska not withstanding ; )

When I am in my vehicle I am indeed in private space. No different then my house surrounded by public land.

I'm not giving you an opinion that it is legal, I'm telling you that the State of Utah considers it legal, so while you feel it is 'concealing a weapon', we consider it protecting our rights ;)

"This will essentially allow anyone who can legally own a gun to have it with them in their car, business or house, loaded or unloaded,concealed or visible, without need for a concealed weapon permit. Only the car part is new, and this reflects practices in most states in the mountain west, and more than a dozen other states. Another dozen or more states have similar but not identical provisions. None of the states allowing this practice have any problems or history of endangering law enforcement officers in traffic stops or shoot-outs over road rage. Yes, bad guys already illegally carry guns in their cars in every state, and do attack cops, but the proposed law does not protect the criminals in any way."


If you would like to read more about the Utah particular law, its House Bill 78 of the 2009 General Session, passed.

[DaveM]

[quote=cruiseroutfit;510635]When I am in my vehicle I am indeed in private space. No different then my house surrounded by public land.

I'm not giving you an opinion that it is legal, I'm telling you that the State of Utah considers it legal, so while you feel it is 'concealing a weapon', we consider it protecting our rights ;)
quote]

Please see my followup post above.

[cruiseroutfit]

...Please see my followup post above.

Gotcha, context is king, I thought you were referring to states in general :D

[ntsqd]

I can say that in CA it is not legal, locked/lockable or not. The wording of the law specifically excludes the glove box in asserting that handguns must be in a locked container while in a vehicle.
Where the laws get skewed is in an RV. When parked it is your domicile, so house laws generally apply. There are, in CA anyway, some caveats to this that I'm not familiar with enough to state.

The NRA publishes the abbreviated and concise laws for each state in a pamphlet. I'd look into seeing about getting a copy for each state that anyone might want to visit.

[Layonnn]

I don’t believe there is any such thing as an extension of residence. In your vehicle, beyond your driveway, you are in public space not private. The glove box, if locked may be a suitable storage place for transporting a firearm. If unlocked it would amount to concealing a weapon IMO.

Edited to add: Texas and Alaska not withstanding ; )

and LA, doesnt even have to be concealed either, and can be carried c0cked and locked.

[el_jefe]

The law in PA seems to be quite clear, google is your friend:

(a) Offense defined.-- (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.

(2) A person who is otherwise eligible to possess a [FN1] valid license under this chapter but carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license and has not committed any other criminal violation commits a misdemeanor of the first degree.

http://reference.pafoa.org/statutes/PA/18/II/G/61/A/6106/firearms-not-to-be-carried-without-a-license/


If you read further, it can be carried in the vehicle unloaded.

It also appears that if you have a CCW permit, it would be legal to carry. But I would check with someone in PA to be certain.

http://reference.pafoa.org/statutes/PA/18/II/G/61/A/6109/licenses/

[fowldarr]

Don't know about Nebraska (currently residing), but in Idaho, I believe that it could not be loaded or it was considered concealed. The easy solution was gun in the glovebox, clip in the pocket. I never got hassled about my loaded gun, just always told the officer there is a gun under the seat. It is loaded. It is holstered. Here is my concealed weapons permit along with my license. Had a couple ask me to step out of the vehicle, but that was just for their safety and did not effect the outcome of me driving too fast (I would have gotten the ticket anyway) :)

[Redline]

Regardless of what you do or do not do when it comes to carry in a vehicle, having a concealed permit, or whatever...

DO THIS:

Keep you weapons and vehicle papers/I.D. completely separate (like glove box & center console, you decide) in all your vehicles.

Practice and train yourself to NOT routinely get into the container holding a weapon if/when you are stopped by the cops.

Most people are not pulled-over often, and if you don't think about this and discipline yourself in advance you WILL do the wrong thing out of habit at the Wrong time.

This will make the cop's and your day much safer.

[Haggis]

The law in PA seems to be quite clear, google is your friend:

(a) Offense defined.-- (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.

(2) A person who is otherwise eligible to possess a [FN1] valid license under this chapter but carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license and has not committed any other criminal violation commits a misdemeanor of the first degree.

http://reference.pafoa.org/statutes/PA/18/II/G/61/A/6106/firearms-not-to-be-carried-without-a-license/


If you read further, it can be carried in the vehicle unloaded.

It also appears that if you have a CCW permit, it would be legal to carry. But I would check with someone in PA to be certain.

http://reference.pafoa.org/statutes/PA/18/II/G/61/A/6109/licenses/

Ding, ding, ding. we have a winner!

In PA you must have a concealed carry permit to transport a loaded firearm in a vehicle. Even if it's in a case, locked in a glovebox or hidden in a hardside case. Unloaded firearms are no problem. And you can carry any loaded firearm exposed except in some municipalities, but who wants to hang out there. Technically you're legal to have a loaded firearm in your vehicle while you are on your own property as you are not a public byway or public lands. But as soon as you hit the public highways you'd be in violation.

*EDIT* One other thing...Muzzleloaders are not considered loaded if there is no percussion cap affixed or primer powder in the frizzen, even if there is a powder load and ball down the snout.

[Cnickgo]

In NC, a firearm must be either securely locked or in plain sight, or else a Concealed Carry Permit is necessary. You can ride with a weapon on your dash all day long, but as soon as it is concealed from sight, such as a glovebox, you need a permit.

[Hanley Noel]

Just get a Utah permit. I'm signed up for the class in Jan. It will cover you in 34 of the states. Unfortunately I live in Illinois (have residency in Indiana) and carrying guns are a huge no no in Chicago--read felony.

Legally carry a concealed firearm in 34 States!
Non-residents of Utah, 21 years of age and older, who complete this 4 hour course, taught by Jim Floyd, M.Ed., a Utah Bureau of Criminal Identification Certified Concealed Firearms Instructor, are eligible to apply for a Utah Concealed Firearm Permit which is recognized in the following states:
Alabama
Alaska
Arizona
Arkansas
Colorado (recognizes Indiana license, NOT the Utah non-resident permit)
Delaware
Florida (recognizes Indiana license, NOT the Utah non-resident permit)
Georgia
Idaho
Indiana (Indiana residents MUST possess a Indiana handgun license!)
Kentucky
Louisiana
Michigan (recognizes Indiana license, NOT the Utah non-resident permit)
Minnesota
Mississippi
Missouri
Montana
Nevada
New Hampshire (recognizes Indiana license, NOT the Utah non-resident permit)
New Mexico
North Carolina
North Dakota
Ohio
Oklahoma
Pennsylvania
South Dakota
Tennessee
Texas
Utah (recognizes Indiana license AND the Utah non-resident permit)
Vermont
Virgina
West Virginia
Wyoming
Washington State

[TACODOC]

Regardless of what you do or do not do when it comes to carry in a vehicle, having a concealed permit, or whatever...

DO THIS:

Keep you weapons and vehicle papers/I.D. completely separate (like glove box & center console, you decide) in all your vehicles.

Practice and train yourself to NOT routinely get into the container holding a weapon if/when you are stopped by the cops.

Most people are not pulled-over often, and if you don't think about this and discipline yourself in advance you WILL do the wrong thing out of habit at the Wrong time.

This will make the cop's and your day much safer.

Great advice James.

[cruiseroutfit]

Just get a Utah permit.

Double check your source, at least one state on there (Nevada) no longer accepts Utah's permit.

[RMP&O]

Just get a Utah permit. I'm signed up for the class in Jan. It will cover you in 34 of the states. Unfortunately I live in Illinois (have residency in Indiana) and carrying guns are a huge no no in Chicago--read felony.

Legally carry a concealed firearm in 34 States!
Non-residents of Utah, 21 years of age and older, who complete this 4 hour course, taught by Jim Floyd, M.Ed., a Utah Bureau of Criminal Identification Certified Concealed Firearms Instructor, are eligible to apply for a Utah Concealed Firearm Permit which is recognized in the following states:
Alabama
Alaska
Arizona
Arkansas
Colorado (recognizes Indiana license, NOT the Utah non-resident permit)
Delaware
Florida (recognizes Indiana license, NOT the Utah non-resident permit)
Georgia
Idaho
Indiana (Indiana residents MUST possess a Indiana handgun license!)
Kentucky
Louisiana
Michigan (recognizes Indiana license, NOT the Utah non-resident permit)
Minnesota
Mississippi
Missouri
Montana
Nevada
New Hampshire (recognizes Indiana license, NOT the Utah non-resident permit)
New Mexico
North Carolina
North Dakota
Ohio
Oklahoma
Pennsylvania
South Dakota
Tennessee
Texas
Utah (recognizes Indiana license AND the Utah non-resident permit)
Vermont
Virgina
West Virginia
Wyoming
Washington State

That is pretty interesting....at least to me since I am in Wyoming.

I really would not want to have it loaded in my glove box. Just because cops are always so cautious when they approach a vehicle. Usually with there hand on their gun. It just seems like it could get ugly fast when you don't really need a loaded gun on you. I guess it could just depend on how you handle yourself in the situation.

I think it is best to know the law first. Get your info from good sources about the law. A forum is usually not the place for that. I have read big threads about this before. One not long ago about guns on the Rubicon. Seems like a lot of bad info can get tossed around pretty easily on a forum when it comes to guns.

[FAW3]

Forgive a long post, but the topic is too important for simple answers.

A previous post mentioned keeping your gun separate from "your papers", a very good idea! I have given several people "a bad moment" when they momentarly forgot what was where...but I would suggest the glove box or any OEM compartment is a dumb place to keep a gun.

Anyway, I climbed through the decision tree about 27 years ago about how my wife and I would maintain a ready handgun. First, we both have legal authority to carry concealed due to prior employment, if we did not, we would both have a CCW permit. By the way, in many states...if you have a CCW, that data is linked to your OL and vehicle registrations. When your tag is called in prior to a vehicle stop...in most cases, the cop already knows the registered owner has a CCW.

All our vehicles (and our bedroom closet) have a lockbox. The boxes are all the same. They use the same combination. Easy to open from drivers seat, very secure, unobtrusive. When we sell a vehicle, we move the box to the next. We have guns in each...all are similar in function, caliber, etc.

Here is a vendor I used in the past and would use again for the boxes:

http://www.deansafe.com/amg-swpb2.html

Please look at my vehicles: No LEO decals (not even the little blue stripe), no NRA, Glock or "you can have my gun..." type stickers.

If I am stopped, which is very rare (2x in 45 years) you get a smile, hands in sight, and my OL and registration. I am civil. I listen and answer approprate questions....Are there any weapons or drugs in your car? Answer: No. Can I search your car? No. What are you hiding? Nothing. What is in that small box? If anything, it is personal property of which I have a high expectation of privacy. Will you open it? No. I can get a search warrant? Ok, get one.

If you get tagged, shut up and get a lawyer. Would any of this make me lessen my abilty to protect me and my family from harm....no.

This system works for me....guns are secure from kids and theft, accessable, and I comply with the law. How could this be any simpler?

[el_jefe]

If I am stopped, which is very rare (2x in 45 years) you get a smile, hands in sight, and my OL and registration. I am civil. I listen and answer approprate questions....Are there any weapons or drugs in your car? Answer: No. Can I search your car? No. What are you hiding? Nothing. What is in that small box? If anything, it is personal property of which I have a high expectation of privacy. Will you open it? No. I can get a search warrant? Ok, get one.

If you get tagged, shut up and get a lawyer. Would any of this make me lessen my abilty to protect me and my family from harm....no.

This system works for me....guns are secure from kids and theft, accessable, and I comply with the law. How could this be any simpler?


That can get you in trouble in some states. You don't usually have to volunteer information, but many places if a police officer in the course of his/her duties asks, you may be legally obligated to tell them. Gun laws are sticky and vary greatly from state to state and even by county, your best bet is to research any areas where you will be going and read the law yourself, contact law enforcement in the area, or contact a CCW instructor in the area.

[craig333]

Best bet is just to not doing thats going to get you pulled over. Obey the speed limit and all other traffic laws. Not that hard.

[02tacotoy]

I don't Know if its been mentioned yet, but Handgunlaw.US is a great Reference for situations like this.

[astn]

I listen and answer approprate questions....Are there any weapons or drugs in your car? Answer: No. Can I search your car? No. What are you hiding? Nothing. What is in that small box? If anything, it is personal property of which I have a high expectation of privacy. Will you open it? No. I can get a search warrant? Ok, get one.

If you get tagged, shut up and get a lawyer. Would any of this make me lessen my abilty to protect me and my family from harm....no.

This system works for me....guns are secure from kids and theft, accessable, and I comply with the law. How could this be any simpler?

I personally think this is a bad idea. Many states require you to notify the LEO if you are carrying concealed as part of their permit law. While technically the only way they could find out if you've violated the law is via search, the end result is going to be the revocation of your permit. Even if the gun charge doesn't stand up (due to illegal search,) your permit can still be revoked--shall issue means that they have to find a valid reason to not give you a permit, and being charged with a firearms violation (even if dismissed or not guilty) is reason enough to deny. It depends on your locality as to how that'd play out, you may win, you may lose.

I think it's crap that there's such a debate on the "right" to carry concealed, but what are you going to do. If you're in a place where they don't feel the second amendment is an individual right (Chicago, New Jersey, California, etc) and you're interested in seeing change, join a local organization and start working on seeing it resolved. The SCOTUS has been seeing some cases that 10 years ago they wouldn't have touched, and the ball is rolling, we just need to fight it out (and win, which isn't as sure of a thing as it could be.)

Austin

[John E]

when asked by law enforcement if you have a weapon in your vehicle you deny it even though you're carrying one in your "lockbox"?

Hope you never get pulled over by a Federal agent, lying to them about that is an offense all by itself regardless of whether the gun is legally concealed or carried.

Why would anyone lie about legally carrying a weapon to a police officer?

I don't get it.

[w squared]

when asked by law enforcement if you have a weapon in your vehicle you deny it even though you're carrying one in your "lockbox"?

Hope you never get pulled over by a Federal agent, lying to them about that is an offense all by itself regardless of whether the gun is legally concealed or carried.

Why would anyone lie about legally carrying a weapon to a police officer?

I don't get it.

If there is no legal obligation to inform the police officer that you are carrying a weapon or have on in the vehicle, then you have the right to choose not to tell them. If someone decides to exercise a right which they have and is protected by law, I'm not going to tell them that it's wrong to do so.

That said, if a police officer decides that he is going to do something, do not attempt to stop him. Even if that "something" is illegal, you can voice your objection in a polite manner...but do not attempt to resist him in any physical manner (that includes Greenpeace style "passive resistance"). Let your objection to any action he takes be known after the fact...preferably in writing, with a lawyer involved.

In Canada, we have far fewer legal rights left with regards to firearms. We are hoping to win back just a tiny fraction of what has been taken from us in the next 6 months by having part of the current gun registry abolished. It has taken decades (literally) to accomplish this small step forward.

If you don't understand and exercise your rights, they will vanish. Quietly, steadily, one by one they will be eroded...in steps that are designed to seem "reasonable" and "logical".

[TACODOC]

If you don't understand and exercise your rights, they will vanish. Quietly, steadily, one by one they will be eroded...in steps that are designed to seem "reasonable" and "logical".

aka "Death by a Thousand Cuts"

[John E]

what specific right is one giving up by not lying to a police officer?

If the activity, in this case the passive activity of possessing a legal weapon is legal, why lie about it?

Refuse to answer, ok, I get that, that's using your right against self incrimination, lying about an otherwise legal activity isn't a right.
And as mentioned, if you do so to a U.S. Federal agent you can be charged with a crime for doing so regardless of the nature of the original activity that you were engaged in.

Again, I don't get it. I'm not advocating giving up any rights, I'm advocating not lying to a police officer about a legal activity.

As for giving up rights, in a previous life I worked as a photojournalist, I've been shot at, beaten up, had equipment seized, been lied to and about by police and other government officials on several continents while in the pursuit of stories, I don't give up rights easily or casually. I just don't see the point of lying about something when I'm not doing anything illegal.

[Martinjmpr]

The most important piece of legal advice I would give would be this:

Do not rely an an internet message board for legal advice!

Saying "Some guys on the internet told me it would be OK" is not a valid defense in any court I'm aware of. ;)

Most states post their laws online. Go straight to the horse's mouth (i.e. the state's official web site.) Contrary to what many people think, statutes are generally written in plain English and are fairly easy to understand, especially laws regarding firearms.

In CO it's legal to carry a firearm in your car or personal conveyance, locked and loaded and concealed and you do not need a permit. (Incidentally, this applies to any form of private conveyance including bicycles and motorcycles, too.)

However, the instant you step out of or off the vehicle, the weapon cannot be concealed unless you have a permit to do so or are on private property with the permission of the property owner.

Source: CRS 18-12-105 (http://www.michie.com/colorado/lpext.dll?f=FifLink&t=document-frame.htm&l=jump&iid=6e0451f1.601eaa37.0.0&nid=d319#JD_18-12-105)

Note also that it is illegal in CO to carry any firearm other than a handgun in a loaded and ready-to-fire condition. Long guns can have a loaded magazine but they must have an empty chamber

Source: CRS 33-6-125 (http://www.michie.com/colorado/lpext.dll/cocode/2/57da3/57dcb/583bd/583f1/585b9?f=hitlist&q=firearm%20loaded%20vehicle&x=Advanced&opt=&skc=80000003000585BA&c=curr&gh=1&2.0#LPHit1)

[Haggis]

Great post Martin. Sound advice.

This thread has sort of meandered from Al's original question. But it is important to remember that no matter what the laws are in the State that issued you your Conceal Carry Permit, you are subject to the State and/or Municipalitiy laws whose providence you find yourself under. Even if there is a reciporcal agreement on those permits. Assuming that just because your State allows you do do one thing, does not mean you can do the same in another State. It behoves those that do carry concealed to be aware of the regulations for the States, Municipalities, and Federal lands they are visiting.

[Martinjmpr]

Great post Martin. Sound advice.

This thread has sort of meandered from Al's original question. But it is important to remember that no matter what the laws are in the State that issued you your Conceal Carry Permit, you are subject to the State and/or Municipalitiy laws whose providence you find yourself under. Even if there is a reciporcal agreement on those permits. Assuming that just because your State allows you do do one thing, does not mean you can do the same in another State. It behoves those that do carry concealed to be aware of the regulations for the States, Municipalities, and Federal lands they are visiting.


That's a very good point and one worth repeating: Even if you are carrying under a reciprocity agreement, remember that you are bound by the laws of the state in which you are carrying, not the state that issued the permit.

This would probably be most applicable in situations such as:

* Restaurants that serve alcoholic beverages or bars. Some states prohibit concealed carry (even by permit holders) in any establishment that serves alcohol. Other states allow concealed carry in restaurants that serve alcohol but not in bars.

* Places such as schools, parks or other public access facilities owned or controlled by government bodies. Again, some states permit concealed carry in such places, others restrict or prohibit it.

* Places that post signs prohibiting concealed carry. In Colorado, for example, there's no law against carrying a concealed weapon in any private facility without the knowledge of the property owner. If the owner of the property wishes, they can post that weapons are not permitted, but the most they can do if they find you in possession of a firearm is ask you to leave. If you don't leave when they ask, you are trespassing. However, in other states, if there are signs posted, you can be arrested for carrying in violation of the signs.

Colorado has probably one of the most lenient concealed carry laws in the country. If you possess a CCW permit you can carry any place except a school, or a place that has magnetometers and other security apparatus to screen for weapons. That's it. No restrictions on carrying in bars, no restrictions on carrying in places that are posted "no weapons" etc.

The danger in having such a lenient policy is that Colorado CCW holders could find themselves in trouble if they go to another state and assume that the privileges of the CCW permit are the same there as they are at home. I know in NC, for example, the CCW permittees are very restricted in how they can carry.

Another point needs to be emphasized regarding reciprocity: Some states issue permits to non residents. Colorado (and some other states) do not recognize non-resident permits. IOW, if you are carrying on a Utah permit, you better have a Utah driver's license, too.

Final point is just to note the wide variance in offense levels. Carrying a concealed weapon illegally in CO is usually a misdemeanor (depending on when and where) but in other states it is a felony. Pleading guilty or getting convicted of a felony has serious consequences including the possibility of a lifetime ban on owning or possessing firearms under Federal law.

[FAW3]

Well it's taken 2 days...but I am now at "turkey critical mass" and am too stuffed to do anything but moan and maybe web surf. Anything worth doing...

Anyway, a lot of thoughtful advice followed my post...I'll just reemphasize the main point of my post was the use of a unobtrusive lock box as a secure, safe and easily accessible method to carry a gun afield in a vehicle. Handy to have an extra credit card and some $ in reserve in there too.

As far as when/where and how to carry...follow the law & keep a low "firearm" profile. I try to (I'll note an exception below).

As far as what to say to a law officer, that is my script, I have used it, likely might again. Depends on circumstances. Yep, USC Title 18; 1001 can be a nasty hook to get caught on. But in the not too distant past, you could have a month long trip, and spend one or two nights in a national park, or just have to drive thru one, and be in violation of law as posted or asked about firearms...I have to admit, I have been asked, I lied. My choice. I have to admit that the fact that the NP forest lands in the vicinity of where I live near Washington DC have seen several murders of campers in the last decade or so. Seems someone else isn't reading the park brochure either.

[SunTzuNephew]

I can say that in CA it is not legal, locked/lockable or not. The wording of the law specifically excludes the glove box in asserting that handguns must be in a locked container while in a vehicle.
Where the laws get skewed is in an RV. When parked it is your domicile, so house laws generally apply. There are, in CA anyway, some caveats to this that I'm not familiar with enough to state.

The NRA publishes the abbreviated and concise laws for each state in a pamphlet. I'd look into seeing about getting a copy for each state that anyone might want to visit.

California also has a special case of being on the State Capital grounds in Sacramento-not only must the firearm(s) be unloaded, the ammo can't be in a magazine or speed-loader....

The pols want to make sure they're protected....

[dieselcruiserhead]

Utah law:
http://publicsafety.utah.gov/bci/FirearmLaws.html#Carrying


Carrying in Vehicles

A person may not carry a loaded weapon in a vehicle unless they have a valid permit to carry or:

* They are at least 18 years old and
* Has lawful possession of the vehicle or consent of the person who has lawful possession of the vehicle and
* The weapon is not a rifle, shotgun or muzzle-loading rifle

It is lawful for a person with a concealed firearms permit to carry a firearm into a bus terminal.

It is lawful for a person with a concealed firearm permit to board a bus or a train or enter a terminal with a firearm upon their person or effects. This also applies to law enforcement officers or commercial security personnel with firearms used in their employment.

It is lawful to carry a firearm in a vehicle without a permit if: the firearm is unloaded; securely encased (not including a glove box or console box) and is not readily accessible for immediate use.

Laws governing the use of concealed firearms differ from state to state. It is important to understand the laws to ensure that your actions are in compliance with Utah law.

Sources: 53-5-704 Division duties - Utah Code §§ 23-20-11 et seq., 24-2-17, 76-10-301, 76-10-501 et seq.

[skysix]

As far as what to say to a law officer, that is my script, I have used it, likely might again. Depends on circumstances. Yep, USC Title 18; 1001 can be a nasty hook to get caught on. But in the not too distant past, you could have a month long trip, and spend one or two nights in a national park, or just have to drive thru one, and be in violation of law as posted or asked about firearms...I have to admit, I have been asked, I lied. My choice.

On the other hand - if you have any prescription medications on board you could say yes - then produce the drugs when asked. Likely the LEO will not get more specific in his questioning, although he might lecture you about wasting his time with 'drugs' when he wanted to know about DRUGS....

[Overdrive]

Refuse to answer, ok, I get that, that's using your right against self incrimination, lying about an otherwise legal activity isn't a right.
And as mentioned, if you do so to a U.S. Federal agent you can be charged with a crime for doing so regardless of the nature of the original activity that you were engaged in.

Again, I don't get it. I'm not advocating giving up any rights, I'm advocating not lying to a police officer about a legal activity.

It's not just lying to a Federal agent that can get you into legal trouble. Here in Arizona, and I'd guess all other states, it's illegal to lie to a state or municipal police officer. (ARS 13-2907.01)

Some posts have jumped on FAW3 for his thoughts/procedures. Reading between the lines, I can tell they have been crafted after years of experience in knowing the human nature of cops as well as the law. As he stated, he does not hold a CCW; therefore, he is not under the same legal obligation to surrender his weapon for inspection if asked by a cop. Yes, you give up some rights to continue holding your CCW that you would not have to give up as a non-CCW holder.

Telling a cop that you don't have a gun when you are a law abiding citizen, not suspected of any sort of crime, may be the prudent thing to do if you want to just continue on with your trip without being interrogated or having your vehicle searched because you've raised the cop's suspicions. I know, I know--cops "cannot" do that without a search warrant. But it happens. Some folks would just rather avoid that whole mess the easy way instead of adamantly asserting their rights. As he said, it's a conscious choice one needs to make.

[Martinjmpr]

...if you want to just continue on with your trip without being interrogated or having your vehicle searched because you've raised the cop's suspicions. I know, I know--cops "cannot" do that without a search warrant. But it happens. Some folks would just rather avoid that whole mess the easy way instead of adamantly asserting their rights. As he said, it's a conscious choice one needs to make.

Common misconception but wrong.

The police don't need a search warrant to search a car on the highway. All they need is probable cause, which is usually defined as an objective set of circumstances that would cause a reasonable person to believe that a crime has been committed and that evidence of the crime can be found in the place to be searched.

Carroll v. US, 267 U.S. 132 (1925) (http://supreme.justia.com/us/267/132/case.html)

[Overdrive]

The context of my post was "when you are a law abiding citizen, not suspected of any sort of crime".

Meaning, no probable cause would exist for a cop to suspect you have a gun in the car.

[SunTzuNephew]

Common misconception but wrong.

The police don't need a search warrant to search a car on the highway. All they need is probable cause, which is usually defined as an objective set of circumstances that would cause a reasonable person to believe that a crime has been committed and that evidence of the crime can be found in the place to be searched.

Carroll v. US, 267 U.S. 132 (1925) (http://supreme.justia.com/us/267/132/case.html)

And in some jurisdictions, if you don't grant the police permission to search, they will call in a 'drug detection canine' to walk around your vehicle. And guess what?

Then they have PC to search you.

[SunTzuNephew]

If a law-abiding individual wishes to comply with the appropriate laws, and have a handgun in their vehicle a better way to keep it secure is in a locking vault such as those available from http://www.center-of-mass.com/index.htm

I've purchased several from them, and am happy with the products.

[Jnich77]

And in some jurisdictions, if you don't grant the police permission to search, they will call in a 'drug detection canine' to walk around your vehicle. And guess what?

Then they have PC to search you.



To an extent. If the dog doesn't hit on something, then no PC

[SunTzuNephew]

To an extent. If the dog doesn't hit on something, then no PC


In those jurisdictions, the dog always hits...and it's reported in more than one occasion that they find drugs that weren't there before.