Which Winch ? [Archive] - Expedition Portal

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Icewalker

12-29-2006, 09:12 PM

Got a lovely unexpected check in the mail today and I can just about swing a winch without the other half getting too upset :)

The question I have is probably a two fold one. There is of course the whole electric v hydraulic debate ? Still not sure which side I end up on.

Also though has anyone had any experience with the milemarker electric winches - they seem to be too reasonably priced to be good - but open to suggestions.

Thanks

Jeff

Scott Brady

12-29-2006, 09:41 PM

From my experience and lots of winching, buy an M8000 and fit it with synthetic line. Screaming line speed allow for easy double line pulls.

Another option (and one I am going to test in a month or so) is a Superwinch with synthetic line. This EP9000 (http://www.superwinch.com/pages/ep/ep9.html) is a really nice winch with lower than average amp draw.
I am working with Viking OffRoad on a winch/synthetic combo.

Unless you are doing competition winching or lots of mud (pull after pull) the other options are absolute overkill. More bling, but also more weight, cost, etc.

Scott Brady

12-29-2006, 09:45 PM

My build of a sub-50lb. M8000 (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21&highlight=m8000)

I know Quadratec has M8000's for $529, which is SMOKING:PROFSheriffHL:

Icewalker

12-29-2006, 09:59 PM

Thanks Scott - does the M8000 have enough pulling power for a fully loaded disco? I was looking at the milemarker SE9500's which seem to be in the same ballpark price wise. I know milemarker seems to be the one to have if I go hydraulic - not so sure about he quality of their electric winches though. If memory serves me right the Warns do have a Bosch motor.

Jeff

Scott Brady

12-29-2006, 10:25 PM

Winches are about creating mechanical advantage. Since yours will be used for infrequent recovery, the M8000 is more than sufficient. This allows for a double line pull which keeps things moving slow and very strong, and since the winch is not working hard (because of the 2:1 effect of the pulley), amp draw is also less. Double line pull also allows the cable to bear less load and the return line to be connected to the frame, halving the stress on the bumper (return lines should always be connected to something other than the winch mount, like a frame mounted recovery ring).

So, to answer your question, 1.5x the vehicle weight is preferred, but certainly not required if good rigging is employed.

HenryJ

12-29-2006, 10:54 PM

Keep in mind that the winches rating is usually with one wrap on the drum. Shorter pulls reduce the winches load capacity. Pulling the line off for a doubled pull is of a dual benefit in this case. Enough line is off for the gear reduction, plus the load is cut in half with the mechanicl advantage of the doubled line.

I have a Mile Marker 9,000 lbs Electric Winch (http://www.milemarker.com/e-winch9.html)
I have had no problem with it other than the poor quality remote control and cheezy solenoid mounting bracket. I adapted my Superwinch pistol grip controller to work with it and made my own mounting bracket for the control box. I have been very happy.

http://www.fmtc.com/~brule/hitch/winch2.jpg http://www.fmtc.com/~brule/hitch/winch1.jpg

I do not use it frequently. No personal recoveries to date. I hope that record stands. Like a lucky charm, if I have it along, I don't need to use it :D
I picked up my Mile Marker winch new with a receiver mount second hand for $400. A deal I could not pass up.
I have been considering synthetic rope, but hesitate since my terrain contains broken basalt ,shale and other highly abrasive volcanic rock.
I have nothing to compare with except very little time with an old Warn winch and lots of time with a S3500 Superwinch. The Superwinch has held up to years of use on my car trailer and a short stint on the truck.

My truck grosses 5995 lbs loaded for a five day dry camp. My car weighs 3000 lbs as loaded on the trailer for the races. I think both the Mile Marker for the truck and the Superwinch for the trailer serve my needs well.
I would not be afraid to buy either again.

goodtimes

12-29-2006, 10:57 PM

So, to answer your question, 1.5x the vehicle weight is preferred, but certainly not required if good rigging is employed.
x2

As Scott mentioned, running the cable (or synthetic line) back to the vehicle will effectively double the pulling power of the winch at the cost of cutting effective line speed in half. But when you consider that probably 95% of winches ever sold will be used only one or two times in the first 5 years...a little lower line speed is not such a big deal.

My personal preference on electric vs hydraulic, is electric. Much cleaner and easier install, and if sh*t really hits the fan, it will work with the engine shut off (but not for long).

calamaridog

12-29-2006, 11:15 PM

I picked up my Milemarker E9000 for $375 shipped. Brand new in box.

It's been sitting in my garage now for over a year waiting for a new bumper:o

I think $529 for a Warn sounds too good to pass though.

Icewalker

12-29-2006, 11:39 PM

Warn Winch on the way :bike_rider: Thanks guys

Jeff

Colorado Ron

12-30-2006, 04:45 AM

Im really a big fan of the Warn 8274. You can pick up used ones for $300-400 fairly easy. Great winch. I have had 4 of them and not one has failed me. The winch on this page was picked up for $250 and bought the Synthetic Line to complete the deal:
http://www.offroad-adventure-travel.com/my-jeep-wrangler.html

http://www.offroad-adventure-travel.com/images/98tj-5.jpg

Nullifier

12-30-2006, 01:46 PM

I like the superwinch Mike (outsidr) has a super old one on his landrover and it works great. We put 2 on the baja truck but unfortunetly or foutunetly did not get to use them but they lok sweet LOL!

DaktariEd

12-30-2006, 02:59 PM

I have the 8274 also...never used it yet except in test pulls and as a demo at the ExPo Trophy.

But it's all I should ever need!

:sombrero:

Scott Brady

12-30-2006, 03:43 PM

Im really a big fan of the Warn 8274.

I agree, greatest winch ever made, but heavy and expensive. On a vehicle that sees a lot of mud or competition, nothing better.

With the modified 8274 (with a 6.5hp motor), Nathan and I won every recovery event in the Outback Challenge

upcruiser

12-30-2006, 03:45 PM

This thread is a refresshing alternative to the other ones on unnamed forums where everyone insists that I need a 12,000# Warn and nothing less for my 80.

Lost Canadian

12-30-2006, 07:54 PM

Winch Depot has an killer deal on right now as well. A M8000 with roller fairlead and 100 feet of cable is only $549.....with FREE SHIPPING and a FREE receiver shackle.:Wow1:
http://www.winchdepot.com/index.asp

Icewalker

12-31-2006, 03:50 PM

Probably a dumb question - but now I have the winch on the way and I'm going to be sorting out the dual battery setup etc. I know there is the remote switch on the winch itself but has anyone rigged up a set of switches inside their cab so that they can operate the winch in comfort without having to run the winch controller through the window?

On my Discovery I'm getting rid of the two low and high volume controls on the dash (they're pretty redundant since there's a volume button on the stereo). I was wondering if I could use these two switches as the feed in/feed out controls and then add a third switch to turn the winch on from inside the cab?

Anyone have any diagrams ?

Thanks

Jeff

Scott Brady

12-31-2006, 04:00 PM

Like this? (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3306&postcount=128)

http://www.expeditionswest.com/equipment/tacoma/electrical/DSCF1105.JPG

From Roadless Gear (http://www.roadlessgear.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?page=TOY/PROD/M/RG631)
Super easy to install with a Warn and prewired. A snap.

Icewalker

12-31-2006, 04:13 PM

Excellent - thanks Scott :D

Grim Reaper

12-31-2006, 04:39 PM

devinsixtyseven

01-02-2007, 08:52 PM

This thread is a refresshing alternative to the other ones on unnamed forums where everyone insists that I need a 12,000# Warn and nothing less for my 80.that's only because they're looking at gvw and comparing it to the outer wrap single line pull rating, without thinking outside the box.

technically i should get a 12K for the tundra, but with a little ingenuity and planning it's not necessary...that 12K weighs a freaking ton.

with an extension (or two or three in different sizes) and some planning, a guy could theoretically strap a proper length extension to a tree, fix a block to the extension, then do a double pull on the first or second wrap with a short line length and a lightweight 6K# winch, and i bet in a good stuck it'll be a negligable time difference between that and a long single pull on the last wrap of a 12K# winch. the extensions just need to have twice the rating of the winch-mounted line.

i'll probably end up with a 10K since that's what fits the arb on my tundra...but i'm pretty sure with practice i could rig up with the 8-9K range winches in similar time to a guy rigging up a pull on the 12K.

-sean

Icewalker

01-05-2007, 01:43 AM

that's only because they're looking at gvw and comparing it to the outer wrap single line pull rating, without thinking outside the box.

technically i should get a 12K for the tundra, but with a little ingenuity and planning it's not necessary...that 12K weighs a freaking ton.

with an extension (or two or three in different sizes) and some planning, a guy could theoretically strap a proper length extension to a tree, fix a block to the extension, then do a double pull on the first or second wrap with a short line length and a lightweight 6K# winch, and i bet in a good stuck it'll be a negligable time difference between that and a long single pull on the last wrap of a 12K# winch. the extensions just need to have twice the rating of the winch-mounted line.

i'll probably end up with a 10K since that's what fits the arb on my tundra...but i'm pretty sure with practice i could rig up with the 8-9K range winches in similar time to a guy rigging up a pull on the 12K.

-sean

Snatch blocks and rigging seem to be the order of the day :D - next items on the shopping list. BTW how many snatch blocks are enough? I was planning on 3 plus of course the D shackles to go with them, a couple of straps and a land anchor. Anything else I should be thinking of? Thought about getting either a come along or a winch kit for the hi-lift for when I have to winch out backwards - too bad no one has come up with a system as elegant as the Foers Ibex.

Scott Brady

01-05-2007, 04:25 AM

Pulleys: Most people bring one. I have two. Three would be for jungle trekking or Alaska IMHO.

Recovery Kits: Viking Off-Road and Extreme Outback both have nice (complete) kits. I have two of the Extreme Outback kits.

Alternate Solutions: The hi-lift is tough to use in a recovery, but it can work in a pinch. I have used a Black Rat Tirfor style and bring it along occasionally if side pulls or additional rigging is necessary.

Willman

01-05-2007, 05:07 AM

michaelgroves

01-10-2007, 09:15 AM

My 2 cents:

LINE SPEED, LINE SPEED, LINE SPEED!

I have seen it over and over again where a slow winch kills you.

Most stucks like we encounter once you get unstuck you can usually keep moving on your own TILL you have to stop to keep from running over the winch line. Then you are stuck again and having to make a second hard pull instead of just reeling in the slack. That right there is one of the things that makes the 8274 one of the greatest winches ever.

Well, respectfully, I have to disagree with this: IMO, line-speed is just NOT an issue with winches. Unless you're competing, perhaps. But for expedition use, it's a very minor consideration. I find that, at least here in the UK, the most widely publicised winch training and advice is given by competition experts. They have awe-inspiring technical expertise, but a completely different set of priorities to people who use winches professionally, or those who need them for vehicle recovery during an adventure or expedition.

So at the risk of either stating the obvious, or alternatively contradicting all the advice you've read before, here's my ranked outline of the objectives and constraints of non-competitive winching:

1) Personal safety.
2) Minimal damage (including enviromental).
3) Effective recovery.
4) Least work.
5) Least time.

To achieve all of that simultaneously means spending time doing the rigging properly; the time spent actually winching-in is negligible compared to the planning, preparing, and rigging. So from that point of view, line-speed under load is an insignificant feature of a winch. (There should be a reasonably fast spool-in, though, to make re-rigging quicker and easier).

In terms of specific techniques, most of the usual advice is in line with the objectives above. One exception is the widespread idea of "helping" the winch by driving the vehicle at the same time. In my opinion, where possible don't use drive-assist, because it makes for uneven, unpredictable loading on the winch and rigging, and because it makes everything happen too fast. Far better to use a few snatch-blocks and have the truck pulled out very slowly so that you have time to watch for snags, obstacles, anchor movement, vehicle damage, and uneven spooling.

Of course, I concede that sometimes you might have to assist the pull with some engine power - for example if you don't have sufficient rope or a suitable anchor for a snatch-block pull. But don't rush it. Obviously, keep driving even if the rope goes slack and you can do so without risk of a wheel going over it. But don't let it become a desperate attempt to keep moving - winches are made for slow steady pulls, not the sudden shock loads imposed by the vehicle slipping back and forth under its own power. If the truck bogs down again, just take another look at the new situation, spool in, take up the tension, and start pulling again. The winch doesn't mind.

The other thing I seldom see emphasised during winch training (though all winch manufacturers do state it loud and clear) is that a winch is NOT a lifting device. Any fight against gravity counts as lifting. So DON'T use a winch to drag yourself up a hill, unless you have a secondary method of controlled descent if the winch, anchor, rope, or mounting points should fail. If you really have to winch your way up a crazily steep or slippery slope where the brakes might not be able to hold you, use a secondary rope, anchor and mounting points, and then "tail" the second rope in as the winch pulls. Any failure in the primary rigging will be taken up by the secondary lot.

I am aware of a lawsuit involving a Z71 that ended up shooting down a hill backwards when a clutch deicide to pop out. Ended up laying on its side in a creek. The guy was only re spooling on a light grade for tension when it happened.

Case in point. I have no idea what caused the clutch to pop out, but it could equally well have been the rope breaking, gear failure, a shackle giving way, the anchor slipping, or the operator hitting the wrong button. In this case, it was a clutch. Always have a backup arrangement if there is any chance of the load running away in the case of failure. Even if you're just spooling in - failures do happen. If you must winch up a slope to get your spool-in tension, at least have a driver in the truck!

As regards the actual choice of winch, I'll post my views in a new posting below, so as not to make this post any longer than it already is!

M...

michaelgroves

01-10-2007, 12:13 PM

As this very thread shows, choosing a winch, like almost every other choice, is a compromise. There's no right answer, it's just a matter of the importance that you, as an individual, attach to the various features and advantages (or lack thereof) of each possible choice.

I like lists, so:

Personal safety
Rope capacity
Drum configuration
Ability to take synthetic rope
Pulling time without the engine running
Duty cycle under load
Load capacity
Reliability
Durability
Weight
Ease of installation
Cost
Maintenance requirements
Mounting configuration
Line speed under load
Respool speed
Ease of operation

I'm sure there are many more considerations - these were just the ones that occurred to me, and in no particular order.

What makes it hard to choose a specific product is that it's not just deciding which factors are most important to you, it's deciding (and assessing) the trade-off rates. So how much extra cost are you prepared to incur to get (how much?) extra reliability? And how would you usefully assess the reliability on that scale, of a cheaper versus a more expensive winch?

It becomes a matter of knowing the circumstances under which you will be using a winch, and judging the experience and opinions of others who use theirs under similar circumstances.

So, for what it's worth, here's my reasoning for a vehicle used primarily for expeditions to remote places:

Firstly, why have one at all? For a start, one winch between several vehicles may be enough. And even alone, if you think you are unlikely to get stuck, and that if you do, you will be able to get free after a few hours with a high-lift jack and a Tirfor, then the weight and cost of a winch might well be avoided altogether. Provided the consequences of being unsuccessful are not too dire, of course.

Ok, so you are going to a place where you might get quite badly stuck, and where an hour with a winch can save you a day without one...

Firstly, I would say if it's worth having a winch at all, it's worth spending money on a good one. If the winch seals poorly against water and dirt, and the components are low-quality, then come the day you need it, you'll find it's all corroded, or the gears strip or the motor seizes or whatever. I've had that happen a few too many times.

I'd choose a mechanical or hydraulic winch. Yes, they don't work if the engine doesn't run. In reality, that only matters if you're in a river too deep for your engine to run. So don't go there (certainly not solo). You'll drown the engine even before you need the winch. Send the other guy and see what happens. Then you can winch or pull him out and rebuild his engine together. :oops: Other situations where it's vital to winch without an engine are very rare - you need a lot of imagination to come up with any compelling scenarios!

Once one's got over that disadvantage, then mechanical and hydraulic winches are pretty clear winners (cost aside). The plus-points below apply to the Milemarker hydraulic H12000 specifically (I think it's a very good hydraulic winch for the price), but most of them apply to hydro and mechanical winches in general:

1) They will run all day, quietly, with no overheating, no loss of power, and without having to rev the engine. This fuss-free operation is a huge benefit when you undertake a long, complex recovery - i.e. when you really need a winch.
2) Simple - therefore (in my experience) reliable, durable, and low maintenance.
3) Slow and powerful (4-5 tons actual line-pull in my experience), but with high speed respool.
4) Speed and line-pull are both very constant. Electric motors react to resistance by drawing more amperage, so a nearly-stalled electric winch can generate huge line-pull spikes, way in excess of their rated capacities. Other things being equal, hydraulics are less prone to breaking dangerous rigging for this reason.
5) Small, low-profile, and lightweight.
6) Wide drum allows long pulls per layer of rope.
7) Easy to install.

I would definitely fit any winch with good synthetic rope if possible, rather than wire rope. It's much easier to rig and re-rig, and much safer. On the downside, it's more expensive by a long chalk, and it can be damaged in ways that would leave a wire-rope unscathed (though the reverse applies too).

Two or three snatch-blocks with matching shackles, and a long winch extension rope of good synthetic will make your winching kit much more flexible. Together, this kit can allow you to alter the angle of pull, increase the maximum line pull several-fold, or use an anchor that's too close or far to use with the winch alone. Remember that the snatch-blocks and shackles must be safely rated for at least twice the pulling capacity of your winch and its fitted rope! The extension rope should also preferably be double the capacity (in case you need to use it in-line with a snatch-block, rather than around the sheave).

So that's my vote cast - hope it makes some sense, at least in the context I placed it in.

Happy adventuring in 2007, everyone.

M...

Grim Reaper

01-10-2007, 12:22 PM

Well, respectfully, I have to disagree with this: IMO, line-speed is just NOT an issue with winches. Unless you're competing, perhaps. But for expedition use, it's a very minor consideration. I find that, at least here in the UK, the most widely publicised winch training and advice is given by competition experts. They have awe-inspiring technical expertise, but a completely different set of priorities to people who use winches professionally, or those who need them for vehicle recovery during an adventure or expedition.

So at the risk of either stating the obvious, or alternatively contradicting all the advice you've read before, here's my ranked outline of the objectives and constraints of non-competitive winching:

1) Personal safety.
2) Minimal damage (including enviromental).
3) Effective recovery.
4) Least work.
5) Least time.

To achieve all of that simultaneously means spending time doing the rigging properly; the time spent actually winching-in is negligible compared to the planning, preparing, and rigging. So from that point of view, line-speed under load is an insignificant feature of a winch. (There should be a reasonably fast spool-in, though, to make re-rigging quicker and easier).

In terms of specific techniques, most of the usual advice is in line with the objectives above. One exception is the widespread idea of "helping" the winch by driving the vehicle at the same time. In my opinion, where possible don't use drive-assist, because it makes for uneven, unpredictable loading on the winch and rigging, and because it makes everything happen too fast. Far better to use a few snatch-blocks and have the truck pulled out very slowly so that you have time to watch for snags, obstacles, anchor movement, vehicle damage, and uneven spooling.

Of course, I concede that sometimes you might have to assist the pull with some engine power - for example if you don't have sufficient rope or a suitable anchor for a snatch-block pull. But don't rush it. Obviously, keep driving even if the rope goes slack and you can do so without risk of a wheel going over it. But don't let it become a desperate attempt to keep moving - winches are made for slow steady pulls, not the sudden shock loads imposed by the vehicle slipping back and forth under its own power. If the truck bogs down again, just take another look at the new situation, spool in, take up the tension, and start pulling again. The winch doesn't mind.

...

You have good points but I still stand by my statment on the most common winches we see in the US. I am talking 12v electric.

Where I wheel we are usually on a steep hill snot slick with mud. If you can keep moving you must do so. Once we lay cable out only the anal retentive respool till off the trail. It gets butterfly wrapped on the bumper.

We lay as much cable out as we possibly can to get the longest pull on the least wraps of the drum. Somebody usually keeps an eye on the winch and stops the driver if it birds nests the cable.

To allow the winch to do all the pulling here is going to result in the following if you don't stop every 1-2 minutes to let the winch rest 10 (the manufacture general recomendations).

Burned up solenoids
Burned up battery
Burned up alternator.
All of the above

Unloaded line speed NEVER hurts. In places like Tellico doing it as you suggest means the difference of a 10 minute recovery per vehicle to a 1 hour recovery per vehicle. When you have 10 truck in a group you are talking a huge amount of time.

The average 12v winch is designed for short bursts of load. To run them continuously will damage them. They are not designed for long continuous pulls. Even says so in the owners manual.
http://www.warn.com/images/925/73203.A0_rdr.pdf

Running a worm drive continuously is not nearly as bad as a planetary. A 24v winch has much longer duty cycles. A hydraulic or PTO drive are the only winches I would think about not assisting the winch for anything other then a very minor pull.
Here is why:
12V DC Performance Data:

Load (lbs.) Current (amps) Speed (fpm)

9,000 454.5 5.2

8,000 419.9 6.1

6,000 344.9 7.8

4,000 261.8 10.3

2,000 194.6 14.6

0 87.7 26.9

Even with no load on the line you are pulling 90amps. A light load of 2000lb exceeds the power on 99.9% of most peoples alternator capacity. The electrical system simply cannot sustain that on most vehicles more then short bursts.

chet

01-10-2007, 03:42 PM

I have seen both electric and hydraulic winches fail. The newer milemarker winches may be better but the old ones sucked. They were so slow it was rediculous. Plus your PS system better be top notch or you will overheat the fluid and it also limits your ability to turn as it robs some of the systems pressure.

I presonally like electric as its kind of a stand alone unit. If it fails nothing else fails with (ala hydraulic line)

I like PTO winches as well for the different gears they allow. One guy in our club has a JDM cruiser with a PTO winch and I'm sure it will be great if the shear pins didn't snap at anything more than a persons weight!!! :rolleyes:

SeaRubi

01-10-2007, 04:36 PM

couple rover specific notes- a friend has an older M8000 on an armored range rover classic and it's got plenty of grunt (sliders, bumpers, skids etc. ). we've made some very long pulls with that little beast on steel cable and it's performed well. He runs a single optima setup with a wrangler high-zoot 160 amp alternator. With some revs it doesn't have a problem keeping winch, rear work lamp, and hella halogens and fogs up front all working well into the night.

fwiw.

i myself chose slow and heavy to get reliability and durability. I have a worm-drive pierce that's a 9k and has a nearly 12k stall. I ordered one with a wider 11" drum compared to the normal 8" to keep the wraps closer to the spool. It will weigh right at 100lbs with synthetic but it's built like a tank, and I feel i'll be able to trust it.

we've mounted this same winch on a heavy Discovery II with an 8" drum and it performs very well. In terms of line speed, I will say this - these worm drives pull about the same speed under load as a warn 9k on a similarly sized truck. The only downside I really saw was spooling the line back in under no-load compared to the sexier Warns. We just butterfly the synthetic line around the bullbar until it's time to hit the road, or when setting camp for the night.

here's a pic for anyone interested.

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/jpgordon13/images/pierce.jpg

as installed in a Discovery II, with Dixon Bate recovery points:

http://nwrovers.com/pics/albums/album29/IMG_4788.sized.jpg

Here's a pic of the 11" drum like mine as mounted on CJ. They can be equipped for 12 or 24 volt:

http://www.eurekaboy.com/jeep/jeep3.jpg

cheers
-isaac

michaelgroves

01-11-2007, 11:50 AM

...
Where I wheel we are usually on a steep hill snot slick with mud. If you can keep moving you must do so.
...

To allow the winch to do all the pulling here is going to result in the following if you don't stop every 1-2 minutes to let the winch rest 10 (the manufacture general recomendations).

Burned up solenoids
Burned up battery
Burned up alternator.
All of the above

Valid points - I concede that my thinking was geared towards travel-type expeditions rather than the sort of extreme terrain challenges that you are describing. I guess if you have a long convoy of vehicles that all need winching through several stages of a route, all in one day or a weekend, then winching speed does take on a new importance!

I also can see the logic about drive-assistance in the context of electric winches - contrary to what I said, the winch does mind doing lots of repeated pulls. In which case, it makes sense not to make it pull any more than necessary.

In general, when I have needed a winch, it has been for a heavily-laden vehicle, in circumstances where careful rigging is called for, and where taking an hour or two to traverse a kilometre doesn't really matter.

So I guess it always does come back to under exactly what circumstances you anticipate needing the winch in the first place.

...
The newer milemarker winches may be better but the old ones sucked. They were so slow it was rediculous. Plus your PS system better be top notch or you will overheat the fluid and it also limits your ability to turn as it robs some of the systems pressure.

Well, mine is only about 5 years old, and while it is slow, that aspect has never bothered me, for the reasons I outlined above. (The single-speed versions would be annoying, though, because respooling a full length of rope would take about 10 minutes!).

Regarding the use of the power-steering pump, this overheating business is actually an ongoing myth. (I looked into this very carefully before committing to a hydraulic winch). Continual shock-loads through the steering when driving off-road put a much greater load on the pump than winching, even near full load. The heat dissipates through the fluid circulation - the pump, hoses, reservoir, and steering box all act as efficient heat-sinks. The proof of this is to feel the body of a hydraulic winch after it has been working hard - it is just warm to the touch. The potential problem with using the PS pump is that some models (like Land Rovers) simply don't have the flow-rate and working pressure to get full performance from the winch. I used a dedicated ZF74 pump, although it didn't actually seem to make much difference compared to sharing the standard pump.

I presonally like electric as its kind of a stand alone unit. If it fails nothing else fails with (ala hydraulic line)

What do you think is more likely: a standard industrial hydraulic line bursting, or a winch toasting your wiring/battery/alternator? :)

I like PTO winches as well for the different gears they allow. One guy in our club has a JDM cruiser with a PTO winch and I'm sure it will be great if the shear pins didn't snap at anything more than a persons weight!!! :rolleyes:

Funny you should say that - I've only ever seen a few PTO winches, and all of them seem to have the same issue! I also like the idea of being able to have multiple speeds, but I don't fancy all those little driveshafts etc. What I really like the sound of is those PTO-driven centrally mounted winches, with cable fore and aft. If you have the space for it underneath, it seems a neat idea.

michaelgroves

01-11-2007, 12:20 PM

For you electric winch lovers out there - this did look quite interesting!

http://www.dborc.co.uk/goodwinch/pdf/newg12.pdf

Icewalker

01-11-2007, 12:36 PM

For you electric winch lovers out there - this did look quite interesting!

http://www.dborc.co.uk/goodwinch/pdf/newg12.pdf

Micheal is that your defender?

Jeff

michaelgroves

01-12-2007, 09:11 AM

Micheal is that your defender?

Jeff

Sadly, not! I had a hydraulic winch on my expedition Defender, but even I'd be tempted by that beast of an electric one! Mind you, one has to wonder what current it draws at full load???

Pics of my vehicle (sold now, to another adventurer) at http://www.expeditionoverland.com.

Rgds,

Michael...

Scott Brady

01-12-2007, 02:05 PM

For you electric winch lovers out there - this did look quite interesting!

http://www.dborc.co.uk/goodwinch/pdf/newg12.pdf

Yes, very interesting... Thanks for posting that. :clapsmile

cshontz

01-12-2007, 02:23 PM

The nice thing is, it looks like you might be able to use the Goodwinch gearbox as a back-up transfer case in a pinch. ;)

Robthebrit

01-12-2007, 04:58 PM

What do you think is more likely: a standard industrial hydraulic line bursting, or a winch toasting your wiring/battery/alternator? :)

Thats a hard question to answer, in general it depends on usage/ duty cycle and hydrualic will always win on a long pull but thats already been talked about. It also depends on the size of the truck, an electric winch for my truck is not practical and while Warn make an 18000 pound eletric winch the electrical requirements are insane. So for me hydraulic is the only reliable optrion.

Now lets consider just components: For the hydraulic system it depends on the type of hose used and the routing of that hose. For the electric system it depends on the size of the wire and the battery/alternator capacity.

For example the low pressure hydraulic hose on my mog is 100R2, its fairly brutal stuff and it has a wear sleeve, you have to cut 100R2 on a metal cutting chop saw!. All my high pressure lines are metal and then from the quick connects to the winch is high pressure wire bound (multi wire) hose. In this scenario the hydrualic is orders of magnitude more reliable especially for big and long pulls.

If you are looking at a do it yourself install on a power steering system with the rubbish components that come with a mile marker hydraulic winch then eletric is probably more reliable. But these winches have an advantage in some ways because they can be driven by an electric hydraulic pack should the engine fail. This is not an option for bigger trucks.

There is a potential common failure point to both systems but failure is more of a problem to the hydraulic system - the belt that drives the pump. Most small hydraluc systems are belt driven and that belt needs to be good, some bigger systems are crank or pto driven and are far more reliable but you are unlikely to come across them on a truck used for expeditions. You have the same problem with electric but even if the belt breaks you still have some reserve battery for a short pull.

Modern vehicles with serpentine belts should not put the load of a hydrualic winch on that belt, serp belts do not like to slip and hydraulic belt failures are quite common. If you are going to break a belt you want to break the hydraulic pump belt and not the main serpentine. Power steering pumps are driven by the serp. belt so mile marker type winches break this cardinal rule.

If you go the hydraulic route with quick connects then remember if you are going to travel to use metric connections, yes they are difficult to find in the US but the US is the only country in the world that commonly uses none-metric fittings for hydraulics. If you have to replace a hose you'll need a new connector and you'll have a hell of a time finding the US version even in europe.

Hope that helps a little..

Rob

barrypt5

01-12-2007, 05:49 PM

Icewalker

01-13-2007, 12:55 AM

Sadly, not! I had a hydraulic winch on my expedition Defender, but even I'd be tempted by that beast of an electric one! Mind you, one has to wonder what current it draws at full load???

Pics of my vehicle (sold now, to another adventurer) at http://www.expeditionoverland.com.

Rgds,

Michael...

Whoa - that is a beautiful defender.

Jeff

Lost Canadian

01-13-2007, 12:00 PM

Has anyone considered T-max winches?

http://www.t-maxwinches.com/

pretty reasonable prices here:

http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product2_10001_10002_755480_-1

I am considering this myself and any input would be greatly appreciated!

Barrypt5
I was on the fence about whether to get a T-max 9000 or another Warn M8000. Looking at the T-max it is very comparable to the Warn and I thought the T-wax was a good deal at $599 but then I saw that Quadratec was selling the Warn M8000 for $529 and Winch Depot had it for $549 with free shipping and a free reciever hitch.:yikes: After I saw that my mind was made up, a Warn M8000 it is, there was no way I could pass up on either one of those deals. If you can get a proven reliable winch like the M8000 for cheaper then the T-max well... Nothing wrong with the T-max it's a pretty good piece and it's very comparable to the Warn, but Warn is the proven leader and if you can get a Warn for cheaper then the T-max then hey....

michaelgroves

01-18-2007, 04:16 PM

...

If you are looking at a do it yourself install on a power steering system with the rubbish components that come with a mile marker hydraulic winch then eletric is probably more reliable. But these winches have an advantage in some ways because they can be driven by an electric hydraulic pack should the engine fail. This is not an option for bigger trucks.

There is a potential common failure point to both systems but failure is more of a problem to the hydraulic system - the belt that drives the pump. Most small hydraluc systems are belt driven and that belt needs to be good, some bigger systems are crank or pto driven and are far more reliable but you are unlikely to come across them on a truck used for expeditions. You have the same problem with electric but even if the belt breaks you still have some reserve battery for a short pull.

Modern vehicles with serpentine belts should not put the load of a hydrualic winch on that belt, serp belts do not like to slip and hydraulic belt failures are quite common. If you are going to break a belt you want to break the hydraulic pump belt and not the main serpentine. Power steering pumps are driven by the serp. belt so mile marker type winches break this cardinal rule.

...
Rob

One thing you must remember about these winches is that by the standard of hydraulic equipment, they are very low-load. The "rubbish" that Milemarker provide in the way of hoses are just standard hydraulic hoses - nothing special, but far over-spec for the pressure and working conditions of a piddly little pump and winch-motor. Similarly, the pump (dedicated or piggy-back off the PS pump) draws a tiny horsepower. Certainly not enough to break a v-belt,or even be noticed by a serpentine. When operating the winch, the engine is at idle, and there is scarcely a change in revs as the load varies, even up to the maximum line load of 4-5 tons.

Of course, things do break - maybe the belt is misaligned, or incorrectly tensioned, or just plain old. But I would stand by my view that hydraulics are generally an order of magnitude more reliable than electrics, and when they do go wrong, they are more often quickly fixed, and do no "collateral" damage. On the other hand, a bad electrical connection, or a short, or even just a bad earth, can fry just about everything (especially in more modern electronic trucks), or start a fire.

I concede that am partisan. I like hydraulics partly because they are better in general and so they appeal to me in principle. But mainly because in practice, I have found them to be much more dependable. I have had several electric winches myself, and seen/been party to the use of many many more. What I can't avoid noticing is the number of times electric winches have either simply not worked at all when they are called upon (most often due to having been submerged sometime in the past), or burnt out during the recovery. On the occasions then they do work, it always seems that they are on their last legs - lots of groaning and smoking and revving of engines and ozone smells.

This is in contrast to my experience of engine-driven winches (PTO, PTO-hydraulic, or PS-pump-hydraulic), which just seem to work competently (if somewhat boringly) under all conditions, providing the engine runs. I have had two Milemarkers myself, the first bought with trepidation, the second with enthusiasm. (Sadly, both required money also!).

So, unlike the writers of this (http://www.4x4review.com/products/accessories/mmwinch.asp) article, I have nailed my colours to the mast!

Michael

michaelgroves

01-18-2007, 04:19 PM

Whoa - that is a beautiful defender.

Jeff

Thanks, Jeff. As you can imagine it was not easy to part with her. But my bank manager is a persuasive man!

navara-au

03-10-2007, 05:23 AM

Here is a link to a product review of several winches available in Oz
Maybe worth a read if you plan on buying one.
BTW still waiting for the next article.
http://autumn2006.4wheelingoz.com/au06%20WHICH%20WINCH%20Tech%20by%20Andrew%20Hiscoc k.htm