Heating a Wildernest/Flip-pac

[Rando]

This winter I have been incredibly jealous of my friends VW Westfalia camper with Propex Heatsource LPG heater:
http://www.propexheatsource.co.uk/air-heaters.php

I know AT is selling these for their version of the Flip-pac, but I am wondering if anyone has actually used one in a flip-pac (without the rain fly) or in a wildernest and can attest to how well they work and what sort of temperature rise one can maintain over outside temperatures?

In the Westy the propex will easily keep the inside in the 50's even with outside temps in the single digits, however this is without the top popped. Obviously a wildernest (or flip-pac) has significantly more fabric area than a Westy, even with the top popped. It would have to work fairly well to justify the $800 price tag!

Just for reference, I have tried several other methods for heating the 'nest. I have a Zodi heater, it works OK, but only seems to provide a 10 - 20F raise and is loud and inconvenient to use and rather inefficient. I have also tried a Coleman Sport Cat heater. Again this would only produce about a 10F temperature rise, and produced a fair amount of condensation. It is also not something I would be comfortable running over night (neither would the Zodi for that matter). The Mr Heaters are an option, but I do most of my winter camping well above 7000' so I am not sure they will even work.

Thanks!

[One4adventure]

I have been thinking about a micro airtight wood burner, crazy maybe but my mind does tend to wander to these obscure notions....perhaps I am nostalgic about the smell of burning maple.....family cottage splitting wood etc.

If you can make it safe!!! That is the question.

[NothingClever]

I have been thinking about a micro airtight wood burner, crazy maybe but my mind does tend to wander to these obscure notions....perhaps I am nostalgic about the smell of burning maple.....family cottage splitting wood etc.

If you can make it safe!!! That is the question.

I don't think that's a crazy solution at all. The wall tent community will have some slick options for you. The only drawback will be carrying wood. If you have a trailer, no problem. Otherwise you might tire of pulling wood in and out of the truck bed every time you stop and pop.

[One4adventure]

"My character shouldn't be defined by the toys in my signature line on an internet forum."

Now I feel guilty about my signature Thx.

[NothingClever]

Nahhhh, your signature is appropriately (IMO) tame :ylsmoke: .

[robert]

I think you will probably be alright- especially if you insulate your tent. That's a lot of canvas but the Propex is a great heater. I have a couple of friends with them in their VWs and they will get it very hot inside the small space of a VW. One thing you may want to do is split the heater duct and direct part of it into the bed and part towards the sleeping area.

I use a Mr. Heater in my VW and it does fine as long as the top is down; with the top up it has a much harder time (have to run it on high) but is capable of still being fairly comfortable while outside temps are in the lower teens. I do have the bus itself insulated and draw the curtains over the glass as well as hang a blanket behind the front seats. The bus also has a fiberglass top, heavy canvas tent and less overall tent to bleed off heat.

A small stove is easily doable but the problem with them is two-fold; you have to cut the wood to fit them (read more cutting) and more importantly, because of the small size, they only burn for a few hours on a load so you have to get up and feed them. Bear in mind this is only my experience with the very small packer style stoves for canvas tents. There are also tiny diesel and coal stoves for marine use that may suit your needs.

[Rando]

I have friends who love their propex heaters in their VW's, however before buying such an expensive heater I really want to be sure that it would work well in a wildernest. As soon as I have a free evening I think I will set up 750/1500W electric space heater in mine in the driveway and see how warm that will keep it. The smaller propex is ~2100W output, so if the 1500W space heater can provide sufficient temperature rise, the propex should do even better. I will post up the results in case anyone else is considering this.

The next question would be how to mount it and route the intake/exhaust in a truck topper style camper. I am guessing I will have to drill a couple of holes in the bottom of my bed.



I think you will probably be alright- especially if you insulate your tent. That's a lot of canvas but the Propex is a great heater. I have a couple of friends with them in their VWs and they will get it very hot inside the small space of a VW. One thing you may want to do is split the heater duct and direct part of it into the bed and part towards the sleeping area.

I use a Mr. Heater in my VW and it does fine as long as the top is down; with the top up it has a much harder time (have to run it on high) but is capable of still being fairly comfortable while outside temps are in the lower teens. I do have the bus itself insulated and draw the curtains over the glass as well as hang a blanket behind the front seats. The bus also has a fiberglass top, heavy canvas tent and less overall tent to bleed off heat.

A small stove is easily doable but the problem with them is two-fold; you have to cut the wood to fit them (read more cutting) and more importantly, because of the small size, they only burn for a few hours on a load so you have to get up and feed them. Bear in mind this is only my experience with the very small packer style stoves for canvas tents. There are also tiny diesel and coal stoves for marine use that may suit your needs.

[Piet]

I am researching heating options for my next rig. I am looking at either the:


Propex Heatsource
Zodi hot vent


Nice to know about the Zodi. I have an old 1977 Bonair tent trailer with a Coleman Convection heater in it that works like a charm. Might have to pull that out before I ditch the trailer.

The other unit I was looking at was the Ducktec Suburban Furnace... Ever hear of it?
http://www.ducktec.com/itm00098.htm

[Rando]

The Zodi is fine for occasional use in a real tent where you don't have many other options, but it really is a fairly hokey solution for something more akin to a camper.

I have looked into the Ducktec and Atwood RV style furnaces, but they seem a lot more difficult to install due to their venting arrangement and use twice the power to operate their fans. I may have to be the guinea pig and install the first propex in a wildernest / flip-pac.


I am researching heating options for my next rig. I am looking at either the:


Propex Heatsource
Zodi hot vent


Nice to know about the Zodi. I have an old 1977 Bonair tent trailer with a Coleman Convection heater in it that works like a charm. Might have to pull that out before I ditch the trailer.

The other unit I was looking at was the Ducktec Suburban Furnace... Ever hear of it?
http://www.ducktec.com/itm00098.htm

[Youngunner]

I'm debating whether to take out a little more on the loan for a flippac to get the heater AT sells too. I'm interested in the results of your heater experiment, Rando!

[paulj]

The Wildernest had some features derived from cold weather tents. For example the initial models had tunnel vents like those used on mountain tents, though those were later changed to triangular ones. They also sold a frost liner, white cotton sheeting designed to hang just under the tent. It was supposed to prevent frost from falling on the occupants. Wildernest had some sort of connection with Lowe Alpine, a maker of cold weather clothing.

But overall it was too large and airy to contain much heat.

I bought a radiant heater, and used it a few times to take the morning chill off. But our normal defense against cold were warm sleeping bags.

[Martyn]

I'm have 95% completed a prototype of a Portable Propex Heatsource heater.

I have the furnace mounted in a steel box with all the hole cut for the gas, air inlet and outlet, and the combustion side air intake and exhaust.

I should have it fired up tomorrow for testing.

The production model will have a fast disconnect gas line, but right now I'm struggling with gas fittings.

The furnace has a 1/4" female BSPT threaded fitting (found that out at the last minute).

I have a conversion nipple from 1/4" BSPT to 1/4" NPT thread.

Then I want to go straight to a quick disconnect gas fitting. The issue is the quick disconnects have NPTF threads. I'm trying to keep this as short, in length, as possible, and I need to find a 1/4"NPT female to a 3/8 NPTF female.

I think I'm in plumping hell :wings:

I'll start a new thread on it once I get it fired up tomorrow with some temporary fittings.

[washington taco]

I use a Mr Heater buddy heater @ 4100' I keep the propane in the cab (warm) until ready to use. It works so well that I keep the windows (3) open about 2-3" all night. The 1 pound bottles last about six hours on low. This is with night time temps in the mid twentys. I use this in a conopie on the back of my Taco.

[Ranchero]

Rando - Here is one observation on the Propex. I have one in my Syncro Westy. I mainly use mine for taking the chill off when we're winter camping. Rarely use it unless the temp is below 20-30 outside. With the top up and no insulation on a 0-10 degree night, a beer left on the top of the cabinet by the sink had ice forming in it by the morning, so it wasn't warming above 30 or so.

With insulation foil-faced bubble wrap on the inside of the windows and pop top, it will maintain 45-50 easy on a zero degree night. Not the most restful sleep with that blower going on every 10 minutes though.

[robert]

Well there's always the Atwood's also; they're a few hundred cheaper and are also popular with the VW crowd along with Olympians heaters (the Olympians don't have to be vented- I'm paranoid about that sort of thing though). There are several threads about various heaters, including the Propex, on the various VW bus forums including thesamba.com and fullmoonbusclub.com.

The Atwood Everest Star 7920 II Furnace for example retails for around $400 and puts out 19,500BTUs.

One example- no affiliation, just a Google search. They sell several brands of furnaces and heaters including the Olympians.
http://www.adventurerv.net/furnaces-amp-heaters-furnaces-c-24_84_155.html?osCsid=fud2c5u41ssk2narjp1ee9etk1

I still think your best bet would be to include an insulating layer and probably splitting the ducting and directing part of the flow over the sleeping area. JMHO

[rusty_tlc]

I'm have 95% completed a prototype of a Portable Propex Heatsource heater.

I have the furnace mounted in a steel box with all the hole cut for the gas, air inlet and outlet, and the combustion side air intake and exhaust.

I should have it fired up tomorrow for testing.

The production model will have a fast disconnect gas line, but right now I'm struggling with gas fittings.

The furnace has a 1/4" female BSPT threaded fitting (found that out at the last minute).

I have a conversion nipple from 1/4" BSPT to 1/4" NPT thread.

Then I want to go straight to a quick disconnect gas fitting. The issue is the quick disconnects have NPTF threads. I'm trying to keep this as short, in length, as possible, and I need to find a 1/4"NPT female to a 3/8 NPTF female.

I think I'm in plumping hell :wings:

I'll start a new thread on it once I get it fired up tomorrow with some temporary fittings.

Brass is pretty easy to mill and thread, couldn't you do a special fitting from 1/4" BSPT to 3/8" NPTF?

[DaveInDenver]

Folks around here have taken out the driver's side window of their WilderNest and fitted a blank panel of either aluminum or plywood. They then cut a hole in that panel to fit various RV heaters. A couple of things come to mind, first a few have burned their camper and trucks down. There is a whole lot of non-fireproof nylon (you have to be very careful of the driver's side curtain and tent divider that hang down) and usually gasoline fumes in the back of your truck. Second, it's generally to minimal effectiveness due to the aforementioned expansive nylon. Personally in the winter I put a layer of closed cell foam and a wool blanket under the mattress and pull out the heavier sleeping bags and we're good down to zero-ish. The curtains are very important, keep 'em closed and the sleeping area is noticeably warmer. Getting up in the morning, now that is a real wake-up, though! Keep it simple, invest in good down booties and a down sweater.

[paulj]

... Personally in the winter I put a layer of closed cell foam and a wool blanket under the mattress and pull out the heavier sleeping bags and we're good down to zero-ish.....

Heat loss through the open cell foam mattress that comes stock with the Wildernest is an important consideration, though the foam core (or what ever it is) inside the fiberglass lid provides some insulation of its own. That combo of close cell foam and a wool (or fleece) blanket should make a big difference.

[Rando]

That is the route I took with my Zodi heater. I made a plywood blank that would fit in the sliding (side) window opening and would then close the window against the blank to seal it off. I have two holes cut in the blank for the Zodi inlet and outlet ducts. I guess I could take the same route with a propex, but ideally it would be permanently mounted in one of my cabinets, so all I would have to do is flick on the thermostat and feel the warmth!

I am also not concerned about heating the wildernest while sleeping - I have a -20 F sleeping bag and a ridgerest on top of the open cell foam mattress as well as a 12v electric blanket. What I want the heater for is having somewhere to warm up and cook after a day of skiing, and a warm place to wake up and get dressed in the morning. I replaced the normal curtain between the bunk and rest of the topper with an insulated one so that I can essentially just heat the topper side of the 'nest.

Unfortunately it has been way to warm in the evenings here (40F) to do a meaningful test with the electric space heater. One of these days winter will return and I can try it out.




Folks around here have taken out the driver's side window of their WilderNest and fitted a blank panel of either aluminum or plywood. They then cut a hole in that panel to fit various RV heaters. A couple of things come to mind, first a few have burned their camper and trucks down. There is a whole lot of non-fireproof nylon (you have to be very careful of the driver's side curtain and tent divider that hang down) and usually gasoline fumes in the back of your truck. Second, it's generally to minimal effectiveness due to the aforementioned expansive nylon. Personally in the winter I put a layer of closed cell foam and a wool blanket under the mattress and pull out the heavier sleeping bags and we're good down to zero-ish. The curtains are very important, keep 'em closed and the sleeping area is noticeably warmer. Getting up in the morning, now that is a real wake-up, though! Keep it simple, invest in good down booties and a down sweater.

[ExpoMike]

I'm have 95% completed a prototype of a Portable Propex Heatsource heater.

I have the furnace mounted in a steel box with all the hole cut for the gas, air inlet and outlet, and the combustion side air intake and exhaust.

I should have it fired up tomorrow for testing.

The production model will have a fast disconnect gas line, but right now I'm struggling with gas fittings.

The furnace has a 1/4" female BSPT threaded fitting (found that out at the last minute).

I have a conversion nipple from 1/4" BSPT to 1/4" NPT thread.

Then I want to go straight to a quick disconnect gas fitting. The issue is the quick disconnects have NPTF threads. I'm trying to keep this as short, in length, as possible, and I need to find a 1/4"NPT female to a 3/8 NPTF female.

I think I'm in plumping hell :wings:

I'll start a new thread on it once I get it fired up tomorrow with some temporary fittings.

So Martyn, what's the verdict?

After our recent Death Valley trip, where Saturday night it was 27* inside our Kamparoo, a heater has become a very wanted item. Since 90% of our camping will be done in late fall, winter and early spring, temps tend to be low overnight. The HeatSource seems like an ideal (if exspensive) unit but I would like some real world accounts before dropping that much $$$.

[Martyn]

So Martyn, what's the verdict?

After our recent Death Valley trip, where Saturday night it was 27* inside our Kamparoo, a heater has become a very wanted item. Since 90% of our camping will be done in late fall, winter and early spring, temps tend to be low overnight. The HeatSource seems like an ideal (if exspensive) unit but I would like some real world accounts before dropping that much $$$.

Mike

Sorry for the delay in updating you. As with all prototyping I hit a snag. I needed a two stage regulator to run the unit and there are none in the town I live in.

A trip to Reno to pick one up is out of the question as we are in the middle of a serious snow storm right now.

I ordered parts online and should have them in a couple of days.

Looking at the heater, the specs, and the fact it's marine grade I don't think heat is going to be an issue with this unit.

I'll post as soon as I have something up and running.

[Youngunner]

You are definitely getting the worst of the storm! Reno had mostly rain today.

[Martyn]

You are definitely getting the worst of the storm! Reno had mostly rain today.

I like rain, it's easier to shovel :)

[abeaudin1971]

Hey Martyn,

Did you get the heater in a box prototype prototyped yet?

:)

-a

[Rando]

A quick update on the heating dillema.

I never got a chance to run an electric heater in the nest, but I did do a quick experiment with a Mr Heater. With an outside temperature at ~20F and a slight breeze blowing (at an altitude of ~8000') the Mr Heater big buddy raised the Wildernest temperature at about 1F / 10 min on low. I didn't leave it long enough to reach steady state on low. On Medium the rate about doubled to 1F per 5 mins, and on high it approximately doubled again to 1F every 2 minutes. On Medium it reached an approximately steady state temperature of ~45 F. On high it got reached 65 F (after about 20 mins) and we turned it down.

For reference the Big buddy is ~1200 W on low, 2600 W on medium and 5000 W on high.

I need to repeat this test in a more scientific fashion (and hopefully will do so this weekend), but for the conditions that I would be buying a heater for (similar to above), the regular Buddy (2600 W) would be OK and can produce about a 25F temperature rise, but the bigger buddy is fine, with at least a 45F temperature rise. More importantly for my long term plans, the smaller Propex Heat source being talked about here (1900 W) is not going to be able to comfortably heat a wildernest or fllip-pac in below freezing temperatures. The larger Propex ( 2800W) would be marginal, and certainly not worth the $1000+ it would likely cost.

This agrees pretty well with what my VW westy friends have found. The smaller Propex will heat a westy down to about 20F with the top down but with the top up (similar to a Wildernest or Flip-pac) they don't really cut it.

[Martyn]

A quick update on the heating dillema.

I never got a chance to run an electric heater in the nest, but I did do a quick experiment with a Mr Heater. With an outside temperature at ~20F and a slight breeze blowing (at an altitude of ~8000') the Mr Heater big buddy raised the Wildernest temperature at about 1F / 10 min on low. I didn't leave it long enough to reach steady state on low. On Medium the rate about doubled to 1F per 5 mins, and on high it approximately doubled again to 1F every 2 minutes. On Medium it reached an approximately steady state temperature of ~45 F. On high it got reached 65 F (after about 20 mins) and we turned it down.

For reference the Big buddy is ~1200 W on low, 2600 W on medium and 5000 W on high.

I need to repeat this test in a more scientific fashion (and hopefully will do so this weekend), but for the conditions that I would be buying a heater for (similar to above), the regular Buddy (2600 W) would be OK and can produce about a 25F temperature rise, but the bigger buddy is fine, with at least a 45F temperature rise. More importantly for my long term plans, the smaller Propex Heat source being talked about here (1900 W) is not going to be able to comfortably heat a wildernest or fllip-pac in below freezing temperatures. The larger Propex ( 2800W) would be marginal, and certainly not worth the $1000+ it would likely cost.

This agrees pretty well with what my VW westy friends have found. The smaller Propex will heat a westy down to about 20F with the top down but with the top up (similar to a Wildernest or Flip-pac) they don't really cut it.

When you do your more scientific study, here are a few things to take into account.

The Propex heater can be used in a sealed environment, as the air for combustion and the exhaust from combustion is taken from the exterior. The Mr. Heater heats combusted air and requires 18 sq inches open to the exterior for ventilation.

The Propex heater blows hot air at 60 and 85 cubic feet per minute, with the air coming out of the vent around 125°F, so it's very much like the forced air system in a home.

You also have the ability to re circulate air from the living area and re heat it through the firebox in the furnace.

As the combusted air in the Propex heater is completely separate from the heated air it is free from the condensation associated with direct propane heat.

The biggest issue for cold weather camping is to reduce the amount of cold air coming into the tent or vehicle, and to reflect the heat that is in the living space back into the living space and not have it radiate out.

There are some very effective ways of achieving this, Autohome uses silver reflective winter hoods on their tent, which work very well. There is soft Tyvek http://www.materialconcepts.com/products/tyvek/ product that works to reduce airflow. Other materials like reflective bubble wrap work as insulation layers and reflective layers, or TempShield work as insulation and radiant barriers.

Having lived in snow country for 23 years I know that you can easily heat a house that’s sealed and well insulated. The quality of the heat is much better as there are no cold drafts, you use less energy, and your more efficient. I don’t believe the answer is to throw more heat at the problem.

[Rando]

I am fully aware that the Propex is a much more elegant system with a sealed and separate combustion and warm air path. I spent several nights in a VW Westfalia camper with a propex and it is an excellent solution for that application. The main reason I wanted to do these tests (I had originally planned to do it with a 1500W electric space heater) was to get an idea of the suitability of a Propex for my application, which is camping in the CO mountains in winter. A Mr Heater is a definitely a poor substitute to a propex for the reasons you listed (mostly moisture), but for me it was worth testing the concept of heating my Wildernest with a $69 Mr Heater rather than with a $900 Propex heatsource. The (minimal) testing I have done so far seem to point to the propex not having sufficient heat output to give me the temperature rise I desire under the conditions I use it. A Propex might be a good solution for people in a warmer and less windy environment or for those willing to make an insulating liner for their tents. Hopefully someone will try this and let us know!

I guess the point I am trying to get across is that I am in no way disparaging the propex, but I am presenting the data points that I have to help others. This weekend I will hopefully have the opportunity to get some better data, and can share that as well.



When you do your more scientific study, here are a few things to take into account.

The Propex heater can be used in a sealed environment, as the air for combustion and the exhaust from combustion is taken from the exterior. The Mr. Heater heats combusted air and requires 18 sq inches open to the exterior for ventilation.

The Propex heater blows hot air at 60 and 85 cubic feet per minute, with the air coming out of the vent around 125°F, so it's very much like the forced air system in a home.

You also have the ability to re circulate air from the living area and re heat it through the firebox in the furnace.

As the combusted air in the Propex heater is completely separate from the heated air it is free from the condensation associated with direct propane heat.

The biggest issue for cold weather camping is to reduce the amount of cold air coming into the tent or vehicle, and to reflect the heat that is in the living space back into the living space and not have it radiate out.

There are some very effective ways of achieving this, Autohome uses silver reflective winter hoods on their tent, which work very well. There is soft Tyvek http://www.materialconcepts.com/products/tyvek/ product that works to reduce airflow. Other materials like reflective bubble wrap work as insulation layers and reflective layers, or TempShield work as insulation and radiant barriers.

Having lived in snow country for 23 years I know that you can easily heat a house that’s sealed and well insulated. The quality of the heat is much better as there are no cold drafts, you use less energy, and your more efficient. I don’t believe the answer is to throw more heat at the problem.