M35A3 Custom Camper

[bajajoaquin]

This is no relation to me, but I think I've seen reference to in on this board. I've just put up the ad and the pictures from Craig's List so that after the ad expires, it can still be seen:

Description: 6X6 Off Road Motorhome

Chassis is a 6X6 M35-A3, powered by a Caterpillar 3116 engine, Allison AT 1545 automatic transmission and Rockwell 2.5 ton top loading axles with over-drive gearing. Additional features include a hydraulic winch, Central Tire Inflation System, air-ride leather seats, air over hydraulic brakes, exhaust brake, air assist steering, cold-start ether starting system and double layer sound insulation (still not really quiet).



Coachworks include 2 sleeping areas (one double bed and one queen), full kitchen with 3-burner stove, gas oven, microwave, fridge/freezer, large stainless steel sink and real granite counter top. Bath includes porcelain sink and toilet with full standup shower. All floors are natural cork and all cabinet faces are solid maple. Creature comforts include a 6-gal. water heater, air conditioning and forced air heating in the coach.



Coach construction is welded square-tube steel covered by an aluminum skin with a baked on finish and fully insulated walls and roof. There are outside lockable side storage compartments, outdoor shower/cleaning station, patio awning and additional enclosed storage on the roof.



Other Features include: Walk-on roof, 100-watt solar and 5-KW propane generator, TV with in-motion satellite 4-person intercom system and 2.5 ton Jeep trailer w/ air brakes.



Specifications:

Overall Length 24'

Width 8'

Height 12'-6'

Interior heights 7'-0"

Fresh Water 70gal. Heated

Gray Water 45 gal. Heated

Black Water 25 gal. Heated

LPG Capacity 2 X 10 gal

Fuel Capacity 50 + 30 gal.

Wet Weight +/-19,000 lbs.

Miscellaneous:
This is an American built vehicle. The “Cat” engine and Allison transmission can be serviced at any local dealer. Parts are available. Many parts can be purchased at military surplus sites at excellent prices.
It is a relatively simple vehicle because military requirements limited the use of computers and other electronics that might compromise the vehicle’s reliability.
The vehicle comes with operation and service manuals on CD Jeep trailer with air over hydraulic brakes
On-board tools include:
Large hand tools (sockets and wrenches)
Air tools
Power Socket wrench (NATO plug)
Many spare parts including rear axle and 24 Volt generator
One spare tire and wheel with vehicle and a second for storage


History:

This vehicle was commissioned to the U.S. military in 1973 as an M-35 A2 and assigned V.I.N. 054010965. In 1996, the vehicle was purchased privately and sent to AM General where it was completely reconditioned and converted to an M-35 A3 at a cost of +/- $140,000. I purchased the vehicle in early 2003 with less than 500 miles since the reconditioning. In 2004, I contracted with Ultra Haulers of Corona, California to remove the "Conestoga Wagon" back and build the motor home coach works. The current mileage is +/-17,500 I know this sounds like a lot of money, but this vehicle has to be seen to be appreciated. Its like new.

[dentedvw]

Wow, I can only imagine what it is going for. I didn't see a price, so I am going to guess about 200k?

[kerry]

It's been for sale for a long time at an outrageous price.

[jesusgatos]

I've seen a few nice A3's sell out of Barstow for under $8000 in the last six months. Prices have been driven up on all of the surplus Deuces (A2's & A3's) recently though, because there haven't been as many coming up for sale (especially on the west coast). Personally though, I don't think the A3's have much to offer. Especially when they're selling for 2-3 times the price of A2's. They're still under-powered, the CTIS system blows, the bodywork is TERRIBLE (the hood actually slants UP towards the front), the air-assisted power-steering is only mediocre at best (from what I've heard, no personal experience), and they're not multifuels. I do like the hydraulic winches and the super-singles on the A3's, but I'd rather buy an A2 and spend all that extra money on upgrades! I just bought a 5-ton multifuel engine to swap into my M109. It's basically the same engine (2.5-ton is an LDT & 5-ton is an LDS), but the power is bumped-up from 130hp to about 205hp AND it can still burn just about anything.

Oh, and that guy's asking $140,000 for that rig on craigslist.

[bajajoaquin]

Yeah, I removed the pricing and contact info, since I wasn't pimping for the guy (don't know him, and have just seen the ad recently). Mostly, I was trying to preserve the ad and pictures for the next time someone does a search for a deuce or M35-based camper.

Uh.... like me. ;)

I've been thinking about an A2 with either a Cummins or LDS swap and super singles. There's one for sale now on the East coast set up like that.

But, since I'm only just now teaching myself to weld mild steel, I think that aluminum fabrication for a camper box may be a step or two down the road.

[bajajoaquin]

I think an M35A3 would be my truck of choice if I were to re-do Casa on another Chassis. But I'd go for the ones made by BMY because they had Cummins 6CTA motors in them (personal preferance). I'd also remove a rear axle.
"A3's" are comming up GL more often now, but the bidding has been hot & heavy.

Why use an A3 chassis if you're going to remove an axle? It seems to me that one of the advantages of using that chassis is the walking-beam rear suspension setup. Wouldn't removing that put you right back where you are with your F-700?

[jesusgatos]

4x4 deuces are pretty badass. Lots of people are bobbing them (dropping an axle & shortening the frame), but I've thought about dropping the mid-axle on my M109. Doubt I'll do it, but it would drop a lot of weight, and it would still be really capable off-road.

[jesusgatos]

If I wasn't planning on living in mine full-time, I'd have just bought an M35 and one of those giant slide-in cabover campers. The 12ft bed could easily fit even the largest ones without any additional overhang, and the cabover is a great use of space. That's the only thing I wish I could change about my M109. Instead, I built a cabover rack that's NOT connected to the interior of the box, and I'm using it as a place to mount the AC condenser, water heaters, generator, etc. Maybe six of one, half-a-dozen of the other, but something to consider. Otherwise, the M109 box is GREAT. It weighs about 4000lbs, but it's double-walled steel with 2" thick insulation in the walls/ceiling and has really nice fold-out, double-pane windows that are rated for high-altitude/cold weather.

[bajajoaquin]

What can I say...I'm a serious Ludite!
Beside that, I've found from experience...
That on a vehicle the size of Casa...the issue is not size "so much" (once you commit to having HUGE truck you understand there are place you won't go), but mass.

I've read both you and DHackney talking about the mass issue. I guess I kept thinking that the third axle would be a good way to distribute the load, and reduce the bad effects of increased mass. But I guess it's also adding mass, any way you look at it.

I'll have to get my head around it.

And I totally concur with your thoughts on diesel versus multifuel. The multifuels can't do anything (that I really want, at least) that a diesel can't do. Your point about A3 vs adding super singles is also well taken. I may just re-evaluate my shopping list....

(Rant)One issue I had with the SS guys is their attitude about first-time deuce buyers. I understand that it's a completely different animal from a 1-ton truck, but their insistence that all MV owners should start out with something smaller is not useful. I currently have a 1-ton diesel. What will owning an M1009 teach me that I don't know now? (/Rant)

[bajajoaquin]

Really? I've rebuilt cars and motorcycles over the years, and owned and done maintenance on several trucks. The M1009s are just converted civilian GM trucks. Is there that much different in the militarization that it will be useful and transferable to an M35? I would have thought that the differences between a civilian model and a militarized model would have been vastly less than the difference between either of those and a deuce.

(And I just looked it up: I meant M1008, the CUCV pickup, not the M1009 CUCV Blazer.)

Hmmm. More to consider.

[SunTzuNephew]

Why use an A3 chassis if you're going to remove an axle? It seems to me that one of the advantages of using that chassis is the walking-beam rear suspension setup. Wouldn't removing that put you right back where you are with your F-700?

The A3 also has the Cat engine and auto tranny...and all (I think) A3's were actually made from factory rebuilt A2's

[bajajoaquin]

...And for the tractor to pull you out when you "F'd up"!

Which, of course, brings us full circle to the bit you said about people buying these on impulse. Although I wouldn't be buying it on impulse, I must confess that I really do like the idea of going off-roading in my local desert a few times before I build a camper box!

[762X39]

I used to drive 5/4 (radio and line) trucks and my share of deuce and a halfs.The uprated 1 tons that became 5/4's do have a little in common with their little 1 ton brothers but you will find all kinds of idiosyncrasies that will having you banging your head agianst a wall asking why:confused:
You will also have to get some bigger tools:)
And to the other comment about SS telling you to start out with something smaller if you are going to get involved in something olive drab, heed the advice!
People buy A2's and A3's for all kinds of reasons but they don't make good pets.:coffee:

[bajajoaquin]

And to the other comment about SS telling you to start out with something smaller if you are going to get involved in something olive drab, heed the advice!
People buy A2's and A3's for all kinds of reasons but they don't make good pets.:coffee:

Yes, I get that. But if I'm interested in one not because I want to collect MVs, but because of the very reason that they're different, there's not much use in starting somewhere else, know what I mean?

[bajajoaquin]

Joaquin Suave:

Looking at the dimensions and drawings you have posted, you mention that the shower pan and grey-water tank are an integral unit. If I look at the CAD drawing of Casa:

http://www.overlandhardware.com/images/ca_images/ca-cad-box.jpg

I see the fridge in blue, right? I think I see the shower head poking out in another picture. Is your shower in the entry way? If so, do you have a toilet in that space as well?

(I linked to the CAD drawing on the Overland Hardware site. If you're unhappy with that, let me know, and I'll edit my post to remove the link.)

[jesusgatos]

BINGO, but with a couple of key mechanical components I like, and the few i don't can be easily changed. It is a matter of..."bang for your buck! A3's have it over A2's.

Multi-fuel motors?????????????????????????

More power than Diesels????????????????????????

DIESEL ROCKS! Why use anything else?

The A3's go for more money for a reason! They have good, more modern components ( with reasonably priced spares), and have gone through government restoration.
A2's and A3's are very similar in most ways, and most of the 'improvements' to the A3's don't add much/any value as far as I'm concerned. I know that's totally subjective, but:

1) I don't like the engine/tranny combo, and if I was giving up the multifuel, I'd want a more powerful turbo-diesel in there. I decided to stick with the multifuel (but I'm swapping-in a 5-ton LDS engine) because I like the additional flexibility (mostly just being able to burn gasoline).

2) The air-o-matic power-steering is, well, air-powered...

3) The CTIS that was adapted to the 2.5-ton rockwell axles is said to be REALLY unreliable.

I just don't see the appeal.


Solving the problems in a healthy A3 costs less then fitting an A2 with super-singles by a long shot.
The A3 super-single wheels are cool, but the modified HEMTT wheels that are widely available now are even cooler, and you can get a complete set (7) of those wheels/tires for $2500 (stock A3 tires are 14.5's = 43" tall) to $4000 (395's = 46" tall). I just bought a bunch of 'almost new' Firestone T831 radials (11's = 43" tall) and I'm not sure what I'm going to do for wheels yet, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are a lot of options.


Jesusgato, Can we see some pictures of your truck?
Sure. I've been meaning to start a build-thread for a while now. Keep promising people I'll get around to it sometime soon. But this is more or less what it looks like right now, in it's temporary hippy-killer paintjob (to keep all the custom sheetmetal/tubing from rusting). All of the interior cabinetry and stuff is done. I've rebuilt the axles (hubs & brakes) and done a bunch of general maintenance. Right now I'm installing an air-shift transfer-case. Going to pick up that LDS engine sometime in the next few days. Still need to do all of the plumbing and electrical. That's about it though.

http://www.trailslesstraveled.com/media/forums/mah_deuce/mah_deuce_04.jpg


(Rant)One issue I had with the SS guys is their attitude about first-time deuce buyers. I understand that it's a completely different animal from a 1-ton truck, but their insistence that all MV owners should start out with something smaller is not useful. I currently have a 1-ton diesel. What will owning an M1009 teach me that I don't know now? (/Rant)
Really? I've been really active over there since I bought Mah Deuce last January. This is my first truck, and they've all been super-helpful. There are some things about what I'm doing that some of them just don't 'get', but that's when I turn to other forums, like this one, and Pirate, and Race-Dezert, and...


When or if you make the leap...Be prepared for everything to be bigger; the tools, the stands ( I use dunage), the amount you have to pay for replacement parts....And for the tractor to pull you out when you "F'd up"!
This is the first big truck I've ever owned or worked on. Biggest stuff I had and experience with before this was the 1-ton drivetrain in my old Jeep (http://www.trailslesstraveled.com/vehicles/1/). I really don't mean to keep contradicting you, but I've been amazed at how easy these things are to work on. Only special tools I've needed so have been a 1 1/2" socket for the lug-nuts, a 3" socket for the wheel-bearing nuts, and a big transmission jack (to swap the transfer-case). Otherwise, I've been able to rebuild this one pretty thoroughly with what I'd consider to be pretty basic tools. Getting stuck off-road is another thing altogether. I'll be adding a winch to Mah Deuce as soon as I can find/afford one.

[ntsqd]

I suspect that it is not that there are so many special tools needed as that the tools needed are larger than the usual set that most folks have in their garage. My wrench options stop at 1-1/2" and my socket options stop at 2-1/8" and I'd guess that is unusually large compared to most folks. Were it not for inheriting them my options would stop far smaller.

I assume y'all have seen this thread?
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37717

[jesusgatos]

VERY COOL picture Jesusgato! Please do make a thread, I'd like to follow your build.

Air shift T-case...GOOOOOOOD!

Sprag T-case...BAAAAAAAAAAD!



Its all good! different opinons make the world go round.
Thanks, I'll definitely start a thread soon. I've just been so busy building...
I've got the whole project pretty well documented though.

Yeah, sprag cases suck. When I went to change the oil and a bunch of metal chunks fell out!

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/deuce/40969-think-i-need-find-another-transfercase-looking-air-shift-unit.html


I suspect that it is not that there are so many special tools needed as that the tools needed are larger than the usual set that most folks have in their garage. My wrench options stop at 1-1/2" and my socket options stop at 2-1/8" and I'd guess that is unusually large compared to most folks. Were it not for inheriting them my options would stop far smaller.

I assume y'all have seen this thread?
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37717
No, that's what I'm saying. Other than the few large sockets that I mentioned, I haven't really found a need for any other large or specialized tools. The bud-type lug-nut socket and that 3" 8-sided socket only cost $30 each, so it's not such a big investment. I guess there's also the need for a 3/4" driver and those are kinda pricey. Luckily, I inherited some big tools too.

[JayGannon]

I've never worked on the drive train of any of these but we built an identical pair of off road production vehicles on M35A2's and found them a great platform to work on, a much more interesting proposition than other vehicles we had worked on.
The flexibility offered by the payload and the large physical space to work with can be liberating and a great experience.

[rickgrob]

Been lurking on this thread, and the board in general to soak up as much info as I can. Like many I am dreaming/planning what an optimal expedition vehicle might be like. Looked at the Fuso/Canter threads, the Unimog threads, the domestic full sized threads... etc. Bang for the buck, I can't really see why you wouldn't go with an A2/A3. Personally I would go A3 for the fact that they are really re-manufactured to new standards somewhere in the mid 90's vs the A2, but tastes and preferences differ. But for relatively cheap $$ you get 2.5 ton (offroad, 5 ton onroad) capacity, all mechanical construction, excellent ground clearance (big tires), easy service.

Only downsides I see is: slow (but most mogs are slow too), drinks fuel (probably 8-9 mpg on a good day), and ugly (not in the "cute" way). The way I see it, the Mogs which are popular are just as slow, might be a bit better on fuel, have less total weight capacity, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder (though I do think they look better). Also have you looked what a 1300l might cost? 30K is not unreasonable for decent shape and 25 years old.

But, I am a complete novice, and an armchair quarterback at best since I don't own any of these, so if I am out of line, be gentle :ylsmoke:.

R

[jesusgatos]

Just so you know, most of the A2's have been rebuilt somewhere along the way too. Mine was originally manufactured as a gasser in 1963, and was then rebuilt to as-new specs (and converted to a multifuel truck at the same time) in 1987. Mine had close t 30,000 miles on it when I bought it (if the gauges are right) and that's considered pretty high-mileage for a surplus truck. There are LOTS and LOTS of very clean, low-mileage A2's out there.

[jesusgatos]

That's a really good point about any vehicle might handle different types of crashes. But as big as Deuces are, I still think that's one of their biggest shortcomings.

Mah Deuce only has lap-belts in it right now (I think all the A3's might come with shoulder-harnesses). I've got a really nice set of Schroth retractable 4-point harnesses that I've been saving for this project.

The steering wheel and column concern me. I know that injuries cause by the driver impacting the steering wheel and column are pretty common (according to military crash statistics). Not sure what I'm going to do about this, but I'm converting to full-hydro steering so I've got some options.

I think there's also a pretty good chance that the front axle could get pushed back in a head-on collision. In an offset head-on collision, like what you could expect to happen when someone crosses over the center-lane, I wouldn't be surprised to see the driver's-side wheel/tire get pushed all the way back into the cab. Rollovers are also responsible for a lot of fatalities (again, according to military crash statistics). So I'm going to build a simple rollcage inside the cab of Mah Deuce. Nothing as extensive as the rollcage I built for my Tacoma. I just want to build a rollcage that won't be too intrusive, but will still provide some measure of protection in head-on and T-bone crashes, as well as low-speed flops (kiss your *** goodbye in a high-speed rollover). It's not going to be connected to the frame. It's meant to be more of a safety capsule, and will float on top of the frame with the cab. The other big reason I'm building a rollcage is to strengthen the cab, because I'm cutting a big hole in it to create a pass-through.

[thecarman]

Have you guys heard of different gearing available for the deuce axles? Some guy on Pirate was mentioning 4.11 being available instead of the 6.72. My expo-ing would be more highway travel than off-road, but I'd still need 4x4 (or 6x6 would work!) when I get to my destination. So the gearing (limited top speed) is the main reason I have not beeing thinking of a Deuce as a platform. Other than that, the M109 seems like a great start.

My other question is towing. I need to be able to flat tow my 3000 lb Samurai or trailer tow (with brakes) my K5 Blazer (8000lb trailer plus K5) behind whatever I build. I would hate to build the box into a camper, then end up with something that's over-weight. I haven't seen a definitive answer on Steel Soldiers about the legal GVWR and GCVWR - did the military under-rate them, etc. I'm concerned about both the legality of the weight for insurance/liability purposes, and the practicality of the weight for safety and reliability purposes.


The other big reason I'm building a rollcage is to strengthen the cab, because I'm cutting a big hole in it to create a pass-through.

I want to see how you do this! :)

[jesusgatos]

Yes, there are two different gear ratios available. 4.90 and 5.40? Try searching steel soldiers and pirate for more info. I know Ouverson makes one ratio, and someone else makes the other. The cheaper of the two is over $1000/set, and the more expensive is over $2000/set if I remember right though. The Deuce isn't intended to be a 70mph highway vehicle, but you can easily build one to drive at something closer to 60mph all day long. That's with stock gears and oversized tires (11's, 14.5's, 15.5's/395's, etc.).

You could easily tow your Samurai behind it. They're 'rated' for 10,000lbs (combined payload and towing weight) on-road. My motorhome conversion will probably end up weighing about 18,000lbs when it's all said and done, so that's eating up about half 5,000lbs of that payload capacity. I'm also hauling a 4,000lb enclosed trailer (empty) that usually has another 1,000-2,000lbs in it. So I'm estimating my total weight at somewhere bewteen 23,000-26,000lbs. I've put about 4,000 miles on it already, and the truck/trailer weigh about 20,000-22,000 right now. My stock Deuce has pulled it just fine - with 130hp! Not setting any speed records, but I've able to maintain 50+mph on flat highway. Hills have been a real killer, but I just adjust my driving accordingly. It's not a matter of whether it will make it up/over anything, only a question of how long it might take. I've found the stock brakes to be pretty good too. Stops heavy loads just fine.

I'll keep you posted on the rollcage. I'm driving up to WA next week to pick up my new engine and a hardtop and a bunch of other parts. I might even be getting a brand-new, still-in-the-crate Deuce cab. That would be so great. I'd be able to build the rollcage and pass-through and then just swap the whole cab, cage and hardtop onto the truck.

[bajajoaquin]

Jesusgatos: I saw your post about the interior dims on your 109 over at SS (7.5 X 12). What's the interior height?

[jesusgatos]

About 6.5ft down the center, and it's got a slight crown to it. I had to lay-down some 3/4" plywood so I could install radiant heating in the floor though (1/2" PEX tubing).

[rickgrob]

Quite astute for your first blush if you ask me!

This is a wisdom river that is as deep as it is wide. but trust me...

What ever discision you make, you will envy someone else for make a different/ better one! Except for those weathy/ lucky/ non-American f*ckers that have M.A.N. based expedition vehicles. We all envy them!

Each vehicle has its short-commings (maybe even the MANS)...So you've got to "choose your poison".

Personally, I don't think big expedition vehicle people place enough value on crash servivability. An A2/A3 or a conventional cab truck (like my F700 "Casa Azul") have everything else trumped! So what if I don't have as tight of a turning radius?...I'm on vacation, I have time to make a multi point turn!

I did many many years of exploring Baja in Ford vans and hated when the big on-coming camions would grab some of my lane because they knew that "they'd win" if we had a head-on. With Casa...They know we'll both loose, and it garners A LOT OF RESPECT.

With a cab-over, one thing is for sure...You'll be the first to scene of the accident!

I like birthdays! I want to collect as many as I can!

Thanks for the compliment, while I post seldom, I read voraciously and hopefully that means I pick up some of the wisdom of people who have far more experience than I in this area.

I too love those MAN trucks. The Europeans certainly have far more attractive options for base vehicles than we do. Even the Australians seem to have a good market for suitable platforms. So being limited in what we can choose, an ex-military vehicle has it's charms. Simple mechanical systems and good load carrying. It would seem to me, that this means you can build your camper with whatever tech you need safely protected in whatever you build. I think an aluminum frame with SIP sides would make a pretty nice system. Does anyone know if he bed on the M35 is mounted with a torsion free mount? Or how have people mounted a camper to this frame in the past?

R

[jesusgatos]

Here's a picture to show you how the M109 box is mounted.

[rickgrob]

Here's a picture to show you how the M109 box is mounted.

Very interesting mount. Clearly it lets the box move separate to the frame under torsional conditions. However those do see like substantial springs.

Thanks for the pic, that certainly helps visualize.

R

[tamangel]

a few more deuce pic's I have collected:

and this web site:
http://www.militarytrucks.ca/rv_project.htm

there's a number of other examples on this older Expo thread also:
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22698

Mike

[mjmcdowell]

Joaq S..... no pun intended ;) I some times think that when you comment on a post that you are "wearing tight under ware" Why? lots of people here have lots of ideas or/and dreams, why throw "dirty water" on them, sure you have a nice rig, you don't have to be so upitty, your lucky!! Don't be so cranky :) anyway stay safe, mjmcdowell

[jesusgatos]

Finally strarted a build thread (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=955676) about mah deuce.

[bajajoaquin]

Finally strarted a build thread (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=955676) about mah deuce.

And after badgering you about putting it up, I made sure to read it straight through as soon as I saw the link. Thank you.

Nice job.

[jesusgatos]

Thanks. Lots more updates coming, but haven't been working on it much lately. Been spending most of of my time overhauling my Tacoma (http://www.ttora.com/forum/showthread.php?t=171002). But now that's almost done and I'll be getting back on mah deuce.

[Terrainist]

Jesusgatos - Thanks for posting the link to your build, very impressive. And I have to smile every time I read that quote in your sig.

[jesusgatos]

Thanks. Put a lot of work into it and have a lot more left to do before it will be finished.

[Magneto]

Jesusgatos, Most awesome build on the M109. Thanks for the step by step pictures, nice work!

[jesusgatos]

Thanks. Long way to go. What's that in your avatar? Another M109 conversion? What's it all about?

[Magneto]

Jesusgatos - I've kept up with your and other M109 posts on Steelsoldiers and found them to be very helpful. I think they are one of the most extreme camper a person can build / use.

I involved some local college students in the transformation process which made it a fun event. They got to use tools they had only heard about :)

Would be interested in hearing how many miles you have and plan on running per year? What has been your longest trip?

I drove this truck 1400 miles to get it home to Kansas but have not planned on any long trips,,,, yet,,,,

Best of luck in your travels and hope to see your rig in person someday.

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20366&page=3

Pete

[NeverEnough]

Just got a chance to read through your build thread- SWEET!