Dang Death Wobble!!!

[Explorer 1]

Now that the "Murfmobile" is gone I thought I would be able to get back to my Cherokee wheel well modifications but no such luck......seems I've been blessed with the infamous death wobble, done the balance and alignment route now I'm replacing and taking apart the whole front end piece by piece.....by the time I'm done I should know the front end pretty well!

Wish it was summer when the sun stayed out late............

Thanks,
Fred
Explorer 1

[Maximus Ram]

Fred, I know your pain. I chased DW for a year. I had my tires balanced and
rotated a few times. I replaced everything in the front.. My daughter bought some new tires, so just for kicks, I put 2 on the front....DW was gone. OK, new tires , I guess. Then a couple of weeks later , I got bored and switched the fronts to the back and versa visa.....DW not there. Very strange, but it seems to be the tires causing my problem. Apparently they can become out of round and cause DW. This was never noticed when being balanced , either.
May be something to look into.

good luck..DW is frustrating.

[OS-Aussie]

check the drag link if you have lifted the Jeep it is often the cause. If the Jeep also gets unsettled after good bumps it is also a sign. Some tires suffer more than others and pressure can also cause it, as can a particular speed range.

[Explorer 1]

I've tried three different sets of tires thinking the same, brand new 35's on new rims, my current 33's and then I even put on the stock tires and rims from the Murfmobile just to see if that made any difference. I did notice that the wobble was tighter and faster on the smaller tires.....

Thanks again, I guess there is some comfort knowing that so many have been there before.

Thanks,
Fred
Explorer 1

[juicexj24]

Having built several XJ's over the last 10 years and tracking down DW.

1) control arm angles
2) tie rod ends
3) track bar (lower bolt hole can wallow out causing play)(upper end-TRE if if you have one)
4) Unit Bearing (pull the tire & rotor and check for play-just fixed this on my WJ)
5) Tire pressure (worth a shot)
6) Wheel mounting (make sure they are sitting square with the rotor/hub)
7) Steering Stabilizer (OME's make great ones-does mask the problem or diminish it)
8) Get a good alignment (google lifted XJ's specs if your lifted and take those numbers with you to the shop)
9) Tighten overy bolt and nut, grease everything.

Hope that helps. Juice

[gasman]

'' dang ''

i could use a few more words to descibe it , like f$% %^%$^%$^ !!!!!(*&$TY%###@ !!!!

i have had this frustrating issue as well my trac bar bushing some how " wallowed out '' on the inside causing a little play, BDS 6.5'' lift, anyway wrong part was sent,, waited again got the new bushing, i also replaced tie rod ends .u joints and wheel bearings were done a year ago. now 3 days ago while driving around the corner the trac bar snapped right off.. i narrowly missed puttin the jeep in the snow bank.. very lucky nobody was commin the other way.. and i wasnt very far from home, i was able to nurse it back to the house i shoulda took pics. the jeep is now sitting waiting for the new upgraded trac bar.. i guess they have had a problem with them.. the only thing .. that has kept me from going completely postal, is BDS has a life time warranty..no questions asked , so im stuck walkin to work for a bit cuz i am NOT diggin my car outta storage its never seen snow and salt and it never will

good luck tracing your wobble i feel your pain brother......... if i dint love my jeep so much i woulda blown it up real good along time ago

[scarysharkface]

I had it again last night on my way to a gig in the rain. Crossed some relatively smooth railroad tracks at 55 and had to pull off the highway. DW is the only thing I do not love about my JKU. I've got a ~2.5" lift and the trackbar relocations. It feels like the knuckles are shot, at 23,000 miles (it literally turned over 23,000 miles as I crossed those tracks!). I think I might just return it to the unlifted state and see it that helps or not. With the longer wheelbase of the Unlimited, though, I do really like the extra clearance.

John

[Grim Reaper]

I had it again last night on my way to a gig in the rain. Crossed some relatively smooth railroad tracks at 55 and had to pull off the highway. DW is the only thing I do not love about my JKU. I've got a ~2.5" lift and the trackbar relocations. It feels like the knuckles are shot, at 23,000 miles (it literally turned over 23,000 miles as I crossed those tracks!). I think I might just return it to the unlifted state and see it that helps or not. With the longer wheelbase of the Unlimited, though, I do really like the extra clearance.

John
Track bar. My buddy has a lifted XJ and had problems with the track bar regularly. The drop bracket with the lift kit kept getting lose. Broke the mounts clean off once. He has also had problems with the wheel bearing and oversize tires.

[scarysharkface]

Track bar. My buddy has a lifted XJ and had problems with the track bar regularly. The drop bracket with the lift kit kept getting lose. Broke the mounts clean off once. He has also had problems with the wheel bearing and oversize tires.

I'm using the stock 31" tires, and have the beefiest trackbar relocator bits I could find. I guess that the bushing(s) in the trackbar ends themselves may be shot, as well as possibly other steering components?

John

[Jeffb79]

don't rule out ball joints either.
I chased down dw for almost a year... replaced 2 bad tre's in the steering, several balance and alignments, rebuilt the jj's in my control arms, tried different tires, finally decided to replace my units bearings, ball joints and axle u joints. Both lower ball joints were shot and 1 unit bearing was shot. DW fixed.

[Desert Dan]

how is your Caster angle?

[Explorer 1]

Thanks to all you guys that have given me many points to work on. The easy way out would be to just dump the vehicle but I guess we have too many adventures and miles together to do that, not to mention all the $$$ alreday invested.

I've already gone the route of different tires, alignment and balance.

I also checked the shop manuel and the Jeep Cherokee XJ Builders Guide as they both have a check list. One problem I'm having is the check lists state to "check this or that part for wear" what exactly am I looking for and how do I "check" it. Are there tolerances listed somewhere or do I just use a pry bar and see if some of the joints are lose. I've moved the steering back and forth both on the ground, with one side on jacks and both sides raised and all appears tight.

To date I've had two off-road shops, one stating that they couldn't see any thing at first check (they admitted that had limited experience with Death Wobble) the other shop which is quite well know here in So. Cal said it was one of the parts listed below and proceeded to replace it. (if didn't work)

So to date I have replaced:

1. Tie Rod end - Drag Link to Tie Rod
2. Drag Link End

Both shown in the lower portion of the picture as an insert.

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q41/fredsjeep/Cherokee/partsreplacedjpg.jpg

Tomorrow early I'm driving over to Currie Enterprises and ask them to check it out and see what parts would be next.

By the time this is done I should be qualified to tell other how to do it.

Thanks again for all the good input,

Fred
Explorer 1 (partially disabled)

[Maximus Ram]

Fred, is the jam nut omn the RE track bar suppose to tighten against the short section of the bar ? On my rusty's(crap) it is against the long section.
Just wondering.. looks funny to me.

[lamontagne]

How old are is the RE trackbar? The frame bushing is rebuildable.

Try this, get a friend to to sit in the truck, with the engine running and in PARK, have them turn the steering wheel back and forth quickly (only about 4in or so in each direction).

While they're doing this, you get under the front end and (VERY CAREFULLY) put your hand on every piece that moves. What you are feeling for is a popping sensation.

If this doesn't produce results, borrow some tires from a friend and try that. I had a set of BFG muds one time that caused DW even though they only had 20,000 miles on them.

[Explorer 1]

"Max" the RE track bar nut holds the threads tight which are a part of the longer section which screws into the shorter section ( make sense?)

"Lamontague" the RE reack bar has less than 5000 miles on it and we have checked out the bushing and it seems to be tight and not the cause of the problem.

This morning I drove the ailing vehicle to Currie Enterprises and with reviewed the parts that had been replaced and the tests I had done including the one where the steering wheel is moved back and forth. They were without any further recommendations other then checking out the alignment again.

I drove over to Rock-Tec and we discussed the problem again, one thing we did notice was that there was a bit of slop in the linkage from the steering wheel to the steering box ( by the way I have replaced and upgraded the steering box and also added the C-Rok box reinforcement). Seems strange that the linkage on the up side of the steering box would cause the problem but I'm running out of options.

We ordered the upgraded linkage and will have it installed Wednesday, then we will try the alignment one more time, making sure it is as close to "0" as possible, after that I've ran out of tests and options.........

Thanks,
Fred
Explorer 1

[Root Moose]

I haven't read the entire thread...

What are the odds that sagging springs are causing enough of a caster change to create DW? I'd check the geometry before randomly spraying money at new parts - unless it is a convenient excuse for upgrades of course. :)

[Desert Dan]

I think sagging springs would only improve the caster situation as far as DW.

[jeepersjeep]

Having built several XJ's over the last 10 years and tracking down DW.

8) Get a good alignment (google lifted XJ's specs if your lifted and take those numbers with you to the shop)


Hope that helps. Juice

If it's lifted you may need longer control arms. It fixed mine and made it drive better than stock.
I fought with death wobble and won.:smiley_drive:

You could'nt drive over 30mph without it dw'ing then would'nt stop till I did.
Ended up buying trackbar-nope, changing back to stock wheels/tires-helped but nope, steering stabilizer- helped but nope, longer control arms-FIXED.

Just my 2 cents. Let us know what fixes it.:victory:

[OverlandZJ]

Has anyone checked the ball-joints?

Jack it a few inches, throw a pipe under the tire and see if you have any movement of the outer knuckle.

[xr8dxj]

Fred, I know your pain. I chased DW for a year. I had my tires balanced and
rotated a few times. I replaced everything in the front.. My daughter bought some new tires, so just for kicks, I put 2 on the front....DW was gone.

I dealt with death wobble for a month. Alignment helped some what (i.e. gave me a few more MPH before wobbl'n), and new tires cured it. Great excuse for new tires...

[Black Dog]

...and new tires cured it. Great excuse for new tires...

True that! I knew mine was way out of alignment because my front tires were going bald along the outer edge, and they were bad enough that they needed replaced. The tires I had sucked offroad (medalist sport kings, before they looked like BFG ATs) and tires were on sale at my local shop, so I gave that a try. They couldn't do the alignment the same day they did the tires, but even with the new tires before alignment the drive home was better. Since then it hasn't done the full on death wobble, but once it kind of shimmied a little when I hit a bump at highway speed.

I was able to justify the $700 for new tires for my wife because I showed her forums like this one, and showed her the threads where guys list all the stuff that they did but didn't work, so when I tallied up the cost of replacing all those parts that may or may not fix the problem she agreed to the "expensive" tires. I got lucky that the tires and alignment fixed it, she would have seen that as $700 wasted.

[Maximus Ram]

"Max" the RE track bar nut holds the threads tight which are a part of the longer section which screws into the shorter section ( make sense?)

Thanks,
Fred
Explorer 1

Ahh, thats why it look weird. It is opposite of others I have seen and my garbage rustys tb..

[lamontagne]

"Lamontague" the RE reack bar has less than 5000 miles on it and we have checked out the bushing and it seems to be tight and not the cause of the problem.


LOL...geez, I even get my name wrong on forums now! :ylsmoke:

I fought DW with my old XJ and won too! If I remember correctly, I set the toe to 1/8" toe in, caster was stock (with the Jeep sitting on level ground you should be able to put an angle finder on the yoke of the front diff and it should read 90*, no more, no less).

[Explorer 1]

Well I went ahead and replaced the rather worn steering shaft assembly, and upgraded to a Borgeson. The shaft and u-joints were a bit loose and with all the other upgrades I've done, it was a worthy move.

I went and had the alignment checked again and the front tires balanced again (3rd time). This time on the test run there was a slight improvement but I'm still not cured and where the vehicle was 6 months ago.

Tomorrow I'll start by pulling some other part of the suspension apart and continue the search.

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q41/fredsjeep/Cherokee/Jeepfrontsuspension006.jpg

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q41/fredsjeep/Cherokee/Jeepfrontsuspension007.jpg

I think I've going to remove the front drive shaft and see if that makes any difference........

Thanks for all the advice, I'll let you know when and what finally fixes it.

Fred
Explorer 1

[ExpoMike]

Death wobble is one of those hard to figure out a single cause and most of the time it is a combination of problems. In most cases worn part (i.e. anything with more than 75,000 miles on them) are the main problem but tires and alignment play a big part.

If you are running anything other than a stock offset wheel, this adds a lot of leverage to the spindles, unit bearing and ball joints. This will make an "iffy" part fail very quickly and add play into the system.

It tends to be hard to figure out what is really worn out because most of the parts are loaded up by the suspension or due to weight. It's hard to see a few hundredth inches of play in parts when you are wresling with a 80# wheel assembly.

It is also hard to pinpoint a single fix as everyone will have different issues based on age and wear. What works for one may not have any bearing on another persons problem. You can start with the common known items but ultimately it can be something completely different then where you started. Sometimes you get lucky and it's the first thing you try, other times it doesn't get solved until it seems like you replaced everything in the front end.

Good luck on your hunt.

[Explorer 1]

Thanks Mike, it came at a time I needed the encouragement with this project.

Thanks again, :)

Fred
Explorer 1

[Root Moose]

If it were me... if here is enough adjustment left max out the caster - even set it a few degrees beyond stock. See if it makes a difference.

[Xjaddiction]

In your thread I can't find what size lift your running, but if your 4.5"es or better, get some RE drop Brackets. Do that, and DW will be gone for good. After the RE DB's on my XJ with 6.5"es of lift, No DW with, loose trac bar, bent tie-rod, bad SS, etc. Nothing would make the thing DW again, like it did before without them. With a lift, the Cherokees are prone to DW because the CA's end up at too steep of an angle. Most 4x4 solid axles will get DW when something changes with wear in the front end, but nothing seemed to bother the XJ after those DB's were added. The ride improved 100% too. Go LA or DB. My Grand had DW with stock lift. I added two steering stabilizers, and the thing worked fine. After changing out the bent front axle(didn't know that it was bent), DW was gone. I'm going to lift it soon, but will be on LA's.

[Explorer 1]

Todays project was to start checking everything related to the front suspension. So far nothing showed any amount of wear that I would associate with the DW.

Did find a couple of "johnney joints" a bit dry and one that had some wear on the outside of the ball where the washer pressed against it. But even these were still tight and with no slop.

The ball joint joints, hub bearings, and u-joints also appear tight but I am still going to pull them apart and do an inspection.

Then it's back together and another alignment and the I'll also try some other rims and tires than the three I've alreday tested.

On the bright side I'm getting a real education on the front end of my XJ. :Mechanic:

Here is how I left it this evening:

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q41/fredsjeep/Cherokee/Jeepfrontsuspension009.jpg

Thanks for all the suggestions,

Fred
Explorer 1:Mechanic:

[Maximus Ram]

Fred, did you check to see if your track bar bracket is tight. At one point when we were checking everything , the bolts were a bit loose. Funny thing was it had never been removed.

On a side note...I picked up yesterday and installed today the RE 1660 track bar and drop bracket today on mine. Man the threaded section is so much more beefy than my other one using the tierod end.

[Explorer 1]

Max,

Yep, track bar was checked twice, once by the off-road shop I first went to and myself today as I had to loosen it to remove the axle.

Thanks,
Fred
Explorer 1

[Jeffb79]

I know you said they appeared tight... my ball joints appeared tight as well, until I took the knuckle off. The lowers were shot, and 1 of my unit bearings was shot. Couldn't tell until I had everything apart. And these parts were definitely the cause of my DW.
I would think about replacing the ball joints at least, you can check the unit bearings when you pull them off.

[Explorer 1]

I pulled the axles out and with that also the knuckles. This allowed me to inspect the ball joints and while the top also was tight the bottom which is made to rotate some appeared to be rather loose, so off the axle went to the shop to press out all 4 and put in new ones.

I also made another trip to Currie Enterprises this morning taking with me all 4 control arms. I decided to replace both upper control arm johnnie joints.

The list continues of new parts.

While I have it apart I'm opting to go with the Vanco front brake upgarde kit. Should arrive sometime this week..

Thanks,
Fred
Explorer 1

[jeepersjeep]

If it were me... if there is enough adjustment left max out the caster - even set it a few degrees beyond stock. See if it makes a difference.

This is what my money is on.:victory:

[Xjaddiction]

Johnny Joints... Great.... they will wear quickly with off-road dirt and grime. Then you'll have another reason for DW. They are great for articulation, but terrible for anything that sees miles on the street. Drop Brackets and support braces from RE will solve the DW for you... Trust me... I spent a year chasing this back in 2000 before anybody was really lifting the XJ's with more than 4"es of lift... well not many XJ's were lifted at all 10 years ago. I found a Jeep Mechanic (now a good friend of mine) that saved me from dumping the Jeep. He told me the CA short arms were at too steep of an angle. Way out of Jeep spec. He had me get the caster down (which Tereflex also told me to get to -2 degrees to solve the problem, as they were working to fix the DW as well at the time), and he told me that RE was making DB's for the UCA's, and LCA's. When they came out, I ordered them, had them shipped out the overnight, and put them on that weekend. Ride was fantastic, and never had DW again. Get DB's for the short arms, or get LA's...