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Scott Brady
01-09-2007, 03:16 AM
I received an email from the land owner of the Coke Ovens property. She is asking that the OHV community not trespass on their land, which includes the ovens and the home (what is left of it). They are having horrible vandalism issues, which is destroying that entire area.

I know that no one on this forum (and most in the area clubs) would vandalise that site, but lets respect the owners wishes and not drive in to the ovens if it is posted "no trespassing" or not (the signs are getting stolen or shot up).

UPDATE: Added Email Dialog from Family. Contact information removed.


From: KARA TRAUT
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 9:47 PM
To: @expeditionswest.com
Subject: Coke Ovens trip

I have seen in your pictures that you have been right up to the coke ovens. I have read that they are on private land. Do you get permission from the owner to be there?


----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Brady
To: 'KARA TRAUT'
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 9:33 PM
Subject: RE: Coke Ovens trip

Hi Kara,

The Coke Ovens are on private land. There are just other ways to access the area and view the Ovens from a distance, without trespassing (if there is a trespassing issue at this time).

The southern route crosses the Gila near the old Cochran town site and the other parallels the Gila on the north side for several miles and then turns north at Walnut Canyon.

As far as the boundaries to the private land, I have not looked at a plat. I do know the actual ovens are on private land (or at least were), as many years ago one was modified for use as a unique motel.

Hope this help

What is your interest in the Ovens? Maybe I can help point you in the right direction for more information.

Scott Brady
Expeditions West
www.expeditionswest.com


My interest in the ovens is that my family owns them and I am sick about people thinking that they can go onto private land without permission. I am more sick that people think they have to vandalize. I realize that you are not one of those people. They are a historical site and soon they won't be there anymore. I wanted to know if anyone actually knows that they are privately owned and that they are trespassing when visiting there. Sorry that I singled you out, but you were the only one that was readily accessible. I just wish there was something I could do to keep the riff raff out, but our hands are tied. The law is on everyone else's side, not the landowners. We put signs up and have fenced it, but it doesn't matter.

Kara




----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Brady
To: 'KARA TRAUT'
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 10:07 PM
Subject: RE: Coke Ovens trip

Kara,

I will update my website to reflect your wishes of no trespassing. I can also post the „no trespassing‰ request on the discussion forums that service Arizona OHV clubs. The effect it will have is minimal, as clubs rarely, if ever have vandalism problems. I even know of a few clubs that have done clean-up runs to the area of your property to fix some of the mess. The problem is the small groups of ATV and OHV users that are drinking and accessing the area. Nothing is sacred in their mind.

Historical sites throughout the area have been vandalized and destroyed. It is so heartbreaking that I do not go back to the Florence Junction area anymore. Martinez Canyon was closed for nearly a year due to vandalism.

5 million people are within a few hours of your property now∑an unsustainable situation.

Scott Brady
Expeditions West
www.expeditionswest.com


Scott, I appreciate that. But, like you say, it won't do any good anyway. We have put 'No Trespassing' signs right on the property and it hasn't helped. So the OHV clubs are jeeps and such that go? I saw one site that had 4-wheelers and dirt bikes pictures. I can imagine those are the people tearing up the roads as well.

I also appreciate that you appreciate the land. As I said before, I know you aren't one that is vandalizing.

Again, I apologize for singling you out. I was upset last night after seeing so many sites with pictures. But it is something that we have to live with because it will never be stopped. Pretty soon there won't be anything left to go see anyway.

Thanks for hanging in there with me!!

Kara


I forgot to mention:

I had no idea that people have gone out to pick up the place. That is a very nice gesture and I will be sure and tell my father that is being done. That does show that there are good people left. Thank you.

Kara


From: William Lorenz -
To:
Subject: Coke Oven Info

Scott -

We understand that you have been in contact with Kara Traut, daughter of Donn Lorenz, the Coke Oven property owner. She mentioned that you may want more information on this property.

Attached find photos of the Coke Oven property, circa 1992, in the original condition. Also note photo of fence repair across the trail.

See following email with property boundaries.

Sincerely,
William Lorenz
Son of Donn, owner


Bill,

Thank you so much for the email and follow-up. I apologize for the delayed reply, as I have been on an expedition to the Arctic: http://www.expeditionswest.com/arctic_ocean/index.htm

The images you share are heartbreaking. When I first started traveling to the ovens, your father still lived on the property. It was always a pleasure to visit.

Now, most of the area has been ransacked by our growing population of wildcat OHV’ers, principally ATV and dirt bike riders. I am sorry that your family must see the degradation of your fathers land and property at the hands of selfless individuals.

With your permission, I will post some of the images you sent to show the destruction of the property and how it looked in the past.

Is there any way the OHV community can support your family? I will relay your wishes to the community. Can we do a clean-up, post signs, help with maintenance, etc.? If your wish is that we simply “keep out”, then we will gladly respect that as well.

All the best Sir.

Regards,

Scott Brady
Expeditions West, LLC
www.expeditionswest.com


88240

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jeffryscott
01-09-2007, 03:45 AM
That is such a shame, the Ovens are super cool and a neat piece of history. Why, oh why do people feel the need to go back into remote areas in 4x4s or quads or motorcycles and trash stuff ... :ar15:

goodtimes
01-09-2007, 04:06 AM
Scott (or anyone else who knows), specifically, what is the area in question? Is the entire area surrounding the Ovens affected by this request, or just the ovens/structures themselves? Is the trail itself part of this? If so, at what point do we cross from BLM to private land? If I were to head back there right now, barring any signs, I would not know what is BLM and what is private, so I wouldn't know what area to stay out of....

flyingwil
01-09-2007, 04:30 AM
Scott (or anyone else who knows), specifically, what is the area in question? Is the entire area surrounding the Ovens affected by this request, or just the ovens/structures themselves? Is the trail itself part of this? If so, at what point do we cross from BLM to private land? If I were to head back there right now, barring any signs, I would not know what is BLM and what is private, so I wouldn't know what area to stay out of....


I do not think I have ever seen any such signs out on the trails there. It is a shame as it is such a cool piece of history to come across.

I agree with Brian... at what point are we no longer on BLM land and on private land?

Scott Brady
01-09-2007, 04:52 AM
without looking at a plat, I don't know. I do know that the trail that comes down the hill and besides the ovens and house is on their property. Basically, we should not drive within a few hundred yards of the home or ovens until we have more details on the property lines.

I am so sick about all the damage in that area that I have little desire to go to FJ at all.

flyingwil
01-09-2007, 05:33 AM
I am so sick about all the damage in that area that I have little desire to go to FJ at all.

I have to agree, each time I go there I leave with a full bed of trash! With the mining at Hackberry, and the vandalism at the cabins, and now the coke ovens.... I think they need to enforce the permits. I bet that 90% of the people out there do not have valid ASLD permits. Come to think of it every vehicle I see out there never is displaying their permit nor have I ever seen anyone enforcing them along Cottonwood Canyon road.

The stolen Mitz Lancer is still in along Cottonwood Canyon road, I have called and reported it about 5 times since I first spotted it. Sure enough it is still there, just more bullet holes in it now.

To make things worse, we ran up 4 Peaks Rd to go camping, and every site for about the first hour on the road off the bee line was covered in trash or used "targets". That is the next bad place. Basically anything with an hours drive of Phoenix is becoming trashed by uneducated people. I would bet they are all on the list to be closed.

Scenic WonderRunner
01-09-2007, 05:37 AM
OK!

.............JUST GREAT!

I always wanted to go there.

Now what?


:26_16_2:



.

Rockcrawler
01-09-2007, 05:52 AM
That's too bad... I guess I'm just glad that I was able to enjoy them and the Cabins in Martinez Canyon before the idiots took over and trashed everything. As with anything else, it only takes a few "bad apples" to ruin things for the rest of us.

Scott Brady
01-09-2007, 02:15 PM
That's too bad... I guess I'm just glad that I was able to enjoy them and the Cabins in Martinez Canyon before the idiots took over and trashed everything. As with anything else, it only takes a few "bad apples" to ruin things for the rest of us.

:iagree:

I remember when there were still overhead belts at the rock crusher and an old guy lived at the Coke Ovens in the house...

Wanderlusty
01-09-2007, 02:21 PM
Maybe this could be seen as a chance to win some good will. Perhaps someone here could contact the owners and offer to come out and help clean up/repair some of the damage. It may do nothing as far as gaining access again, but it would be a nice thing to do.

Sometimes when I read this, I wish I lived closer so I could help out on more cleanups and such.

Sometimes when I read this, it makes me sad that it seems improper trail usage has reached levels enough to make someone who loves that area say they "have little desire to go there at all" and that is just sad it has gotten that bad.

Around here, litter is a problem. Vandalism to a lesser extent. Illegal dumping in some areas is bad enough that it would take a large dump truck (or two) to haul out all the trash. Heck, there is a lot not far from my house that currently has no less than 3 mattresses, and several other pieces of junk.

I just don't get it. I totally don't understand the mentality of the person who pushes a washing machine off the back of their truck onto someone elses, or even public property, and doesn't feel bad about it.

Sometimes it just makes me wanna :ar15: !

Scott Brady
01-09-2007, 02:27 PM
We are seeing the affects of the "ME" generation now. 90% had no parenting and they are running wild and think nothing of leaving garbage around. My dad showed me by example to leave things better than I found it.

I just did a clean-up in the Four Peaks area on a small, side trail (we are using it for a Jeep launch). We hauled out 40 bags of garbage and a burned out Dodge Ram.

I did mention to the owner that the Copper State Cruisers did a clean-up. They expressed their appreciation.

If someone is willing to coordinate the run, I will be happy to contact the owner and get permission for a clean-up and legal access to the Ovens.

seth_js
01-09-2007, 02:43 PM
I bet that 90% of the people out there do not have valid BLM permits.

I wasn't aware of any BLM permits for FJ. State land, yeah.

DaktariEd
01-09-2007, 02:44 PM
We are seeing the affects of the "ME" generation now. 90% had no parenting and they are running wild and think nothing of leaving garbage around. My dad showed me by example to leave things better than I found it.

I just did a clean-up in the Four Peaks area on a small, side trail (we are using it for a Jeep launch). We hauled out 40 bags of garbage and a burned out Dodge Ram.

I did mention to the owner that the Copper State Cruisers did a clean-up. They expressed their appreciation.

If someone is willing to coordinate the run, I will be happy to contact the owner and get permission for a clean-up and legal access to the Ovens.


That might be a good opportunity for ExPo goodwill and to assist the property owner. Could even help them post signs (though no doubt short-lived) in appropriate areas.

jeffryscott
01-09-2007, 03:26 PM
a clean-up would be a good idea, I don't know the area well (been there just once) so don't feel too comfortable organizing anything, but am willing to help.

Let's pick a date as a starting point (Saturday's would be best for me as I work Sunday afternoon) and when a date is chosen (if the land owner wants this) then I'll contact my friends at the Land Rover group (AZLRO) and I'm sure we could get help from the Copper State Cruisers (John Shotts? Mad Baggins?) and we could pick areas: Expo, AZLRO, CSC to concentrate our efforts.

One thing I've seen on C-Gap is a welded sign ... maybe a few signs made of heavy metal would last a few shotgun blasts longer than wood or plastic ...

Let's get this going ...:archaeolo

(I'd take my 4-year-old too ... start teaching her some of this stuff. Everytime we go out and pick stuff up, she says we should organize a cleanup. Here's her chance ... cool.)

BajaTaco
01-09-2007, 04:01 PM
Just thinking out loud here...

I think a clean-up is a great gesture, and I bet there are a ton of community oriented 4wd people already thinking the same thing. If the word was spread around to the various AZ clubs and such, I bet the number of volunteers would be staggering since it is such a popular destination. HOWEVER, a clean up is a short-lived thing. Perhaps too little too late. I bet if the various phoenix area clubs could organize their efforts, a plan could be proposed to set up a training day for volunteers. The participants would volunteer two weekend days per year (doesn't have to be two consecutive days) to camp out or day-trip at the ovens and act as a guide for visitors. All visitors would be required to have the guide take them through the property. It would take 52 people to do it, but I bet the positions could be filled quite quickly. If I lived in the area, I certainly wouldn't mind doing that. It would also be a fun way to meet people and see a lot of cool vehicles. My guess is that after the clean up has taken place, and if the property has a baby sitter on the weekends, the amount of vandalism/irresponsible acts would go way, way down.

GeoRoss
01-09-2007, 05:03 PM
Scott, could you forward this email to the CSC site on Mud? We are in the process of creating a "trail info" sticky.

If someone could supply some UTM/state plane coordinates I can try and provide a better idea of the property lines.

Ross

SLOwag
01-09-2007, 05:47 PM
HOWEVER, a clean up is a short-lived thing.

Agreed. What may need to happen is to "Adopt The Trail", whereby a group regularly picks up trash similar to the road adoption we have here in CA. I belong to a club where we adopted a section of road in a beach town that gets trashed especially hard during the summer and holidays. We schedule a pick up day as needed and leave the bags by the road for the DOT to pick up.

Everytime we are out picking up trash we are stopped by the locals and thanked for our service, at that time we tell them the name of our club and we're happy to give back to the community......This service goes a long way when we put on events that require community approval.

I remember an article last year in Toyota Trails where the Alaskans went way back in the bush to recover and remove stolen wrecks, If it can be done up there, it can be done here.

TBob
01-09-2007, 07:49 PM
I posted this thread on the VJC and I think members from there as well as members from the AZTTORA would be willing to come out for a clean up.

saltamontes
01-09-2007, 09:25 PM
solar cell powered web-cam and microPC with donated cell phone (is there coverage?) to upload n-second stills to [path].expeditionportal.com

...or...

web-cam w integrated web server running dynamic dns resolution sWare
(images not uploaded anywhere; kilns.az.webCam.expeditionportal.com resolved to whatever ip the cam/server assigned).

...either way...

images are fifo, w/ no prob storing days of "latest images" thus providing both a record of visitors (and possible vandals) as well as a cool live web-cam link to popular offroad destinations.

place a Cingular ad on the site in exchange for them donating the cell account or do it via ham packet radio or cell patch.

would be cool.
if you can get the hWare stable/bulletproof and nobody steals it


==============

personally, i would like to see an artist create a set of interpretive sign design templates that off-road clubs (we know the state will not fund it) can use to fashion informative historical landmarks that hopefully instill some sense of wonder/awe/respect in visitors that would otherwise vandalize.

get the state(s)/blm/feds to agree to not rip em out and foster some good pr for local offroad clubs.
look at what was done by a public/private partnership between the bellmaker and caltrans for the Camino Real.

oldhockeyvb
01-10-2007, 12:00 AM
It does not appear to me the ovens themselves are on private land. I am sensitive to the private land owners concerns and am willing to work on trail cleanup and maintenance but I don't believe they can deny access. We should still work with them to help alleviate the damage.
Vern

http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/showthread.php?p=145216&posted=1#post145216

flyingwil
01-10-2007, 12:52 AM
I wasn't aware of any BLM permits for FJ. State land, yeah.

Good Catch!

Sorry, I meant state permits through the ASLD recreation use permit program. http://www.land.state.az.us/programs/natural/rec_offroad_permit.htm

Scott Brady
01-10-2007, 01:22 AM
Vern,

Thank you so much for posting that link. I will send a copy of the screen shot to the owners to help clarify the boundaries. It is the daughter of the land owner and she has been good to work with. For those of us who visited the area when the house was still occupied (that was the early 90's for me), then you know how much damage has been done to the site.

It looks like access is still ok from the NW (the more challenging shelf road).

SOAZ
01-10-2007, 03:01 AM
Instead of just a sign maybe we could go out there and drag some boulders into the road on the private land road so people find it easier to go down the correct road. I know vandals are lazy so maybe it would work...

It makes me ashamed to be associated with offroaders in AZ. Is it just me or when you go to Utah or Colorado the structures that have been abandoned seem to last a LOT longer and never have a mark on them...
What is wrong with our fellow Arizonans!!?? Even when I was a kid I might light some fire works or kick up too much dust doing donuts, but I'd never destroy something. Of course that was in California, but same difference.

TBob
01-10-2007, 03:24 AM
Whoa there - I would be throwing stones at the offroaders... I don't believe that is where the problem lies. Try parting teens and such... Let me ask u how many times have you seen offraoders being the offenders?



Instead of just a sign maybe we could go out there and drag some boulders into the road on the private land road so people find it easier to go down the correct road. I know vandals are lazy so maybe it would work...

It makes me ashamed to be associated with offroaders in AZ. Is it just me or when you go to Utah or Colorado the structures that have been abandoned seem to last a LOT longer and never have a mark on them...
What is wrong with our fellow Arizonans!!?? Even when I was a kid I might light some fire works or kick up too much dust doing donuts, but I'd never destroy something. Of course that was in California, but same difference.

SOAZ
01-10-2007, 03:30 AM
Don't take offense. I don't consider offroaders to be one huge group. Anyone in a club and everyone on here is ten steps up from anyone doing the vandalism. My point is more that when I talk to someone at work or walk up to someone on the street, to them we are all just a bunch of offroaders if we go offroad at all. Thats why I hate being lumped into that group. So thats why I'm upset, but excited to do something positive to change the image that your average joe bloe or sierra club member has of us.
(your right though, it is almost always kids or dumb drunk adults that would do something so illogical):victory:

Hatch
01-10-2007, 04:49 PM
I don't think the DOT map is accurate. According to Pinal County Assessor, the Coke Ovens are in fact on private land.

Scott Brady
01-10-2007, 05:21 PM
Hatch. Thank you for the comment. Would it be possible to scan the plat you have seen?

Hatch
01-10-2007, 06:15 PM
Hatch. Thank you for the comment. Would it be possible to scan the plat you have seen?

I called the Pinal County Assessor. I have the parcel numbers if you would like.

BMAN
01-10-2007, 09:57 PM
This is a real shame if it is truely the case that the Coke ovens are to be closed. One of my fondest memories as a child is a trip with my parents and all their friends back to the Coke Ovens. I am truely glad that I had the chance to alt least share the area with my wife and daughter before this inevitable event happened. Unfortunately it seems that my sons will not have the same chance.

That said, Scotty, please let the land owner who contacted you know that Copper State Cruisers is more than happy to lend a hand ANY time there is a need. The cleanup we hosted out there in March of '05 was the last time I visited the Ovens. We hauled out what must have been easily a ton of trash from the site. It was a very long hard day of work, but damn it felt so good. The idea of losing access weighs heavily on my heart. If you would be so kind as to forward my contact info to the owner, I'd really like to talk to her about adopting the site either as a club or if I have to, just as a single individual to go out once or twice a year and haul out whatever needs to be hauled.

oldhockeyvb
01-11-2007, 02:13 AM
I didn't get a straight answer from the pinal county assessors office. I'm going to call them again tommorrow and try to get better information. The BLM mesa map shows the ovens on public lands.
Again, nothing against the property owner, we all need to respect their rights. I would never do anything to discredit our sport. I just want to have the facts.
I hope there is still an opportunity for us to work with the property owner to set up a sustainable trail. I volunteer myself, and I think I can get some friends to cooperate also.
Vern

oldhockeyvb
01-11-2007, 06:22 PM
The coke ovens are on private land. The maps I had from BLM and the state are incorrect. Here is the parcel map. The ovens are in 1C.

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/672767/1

Vern

Scott Brady
01-11-2007, 09:54 PM
Thank you for looking up the plat. This is helpful.

I have been discussing more with the land owner and they would like to partner with a few clubs on this to help preserve the ovens. That is their greatest concern. I will post more details in mid. Feb.

edgear
01-11-2007, 10:16 PM
I've enjoyed a few (low impact) trips to the Coke Ovens & surrounding trails around Florence Junction. Definitely a cool piece of Arizona history.

Even though I now live farther away, I would be down for helping out w/ the cleanup effort. Count me in whenever the trip is organized! And I'll be sure to pack light so that the entire bed of my truck is available to haul junk out. :elkgrin:

oldhockeyvb
01-11-2007, 10:18 PM
Thanks Scott for taking the lead on this. Please keep me updated on the needs. I am interested in being a part of this. If you need something let us know!
Vern

Rockcrawler
01-12-2007, 03:36 AM
I'm in for whatever we can do to preserve the coke ovens as well...

Kyle

DaktariEd
01-12-2007, 12:54 PM
Scott,
Perhaps this would be worthy of an article in some nationally circulated 4WD mags about the issues involved with vandalism, private property rights, historic preservation...and good folks trying to set things right!
:sombrero:
Ed

DaktariEd
01-12-2007, 12:56 PM
PS...count me in for a cleanup...
:D

Desertdude
01-12-2007, 01:36 PM
I am sure you can count on the Copper State Cruisers (http://forum.ih8mud.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=25) for clean up muscle when needed :REExeSquatsHL1:

Steve Curren
01-13-2007, 01:58 PM
Scott,
I belong to a group of off roaders who would love to help with cleaning up and repairing, please keep us posted.

Steve Curren

ShottsCruisers
01-15-2007, 10:21 PM
This will be a tough area to "Police".

Entries from:

*Price via the Gila River channel
*West ford from road to the Kelvin-Florence Highway
*East ford from road to the Kelvin-Florence Highway and/or Battleaxe/Walnut Canyon Trail
*Main road from Martinex area with east and west access roads

It'll be a shame to view the Ovens from a distance. I just hope this closure will not effect entry to the "area"....if you follow me. I hope we can "go around".

I think a major clean up effort would be the minimum we all could propose. If they insist on closure we should adopt a plan to keep vehicles off their property.

Getting the quads to stay out might be a real task.

BMAN
01-15-2007, 10:43 PM
Thank you for looking up the plat. This is helpful.

I have been discussing more with the land owner and they would like to partner with a few clubs on this to help preserve the ovens. That is their greatest concern. I will post more details in mid. Feb.


Scott,

As others have said, thank you for aking this upon yourself. Again, CSC is at your disposal when the time arises. It is terribly important for all of us to respect the owners wishes and stay out until such a day that we might be able to construct something that will help preserve the location for generations to come. I will be sure to do my part when out in the area to inform others of the owners wishes.

24HOURSOFNEVADA
03-13-2007, 05:40 AM
Does anyone have any pics to post of the ovens, so that the out of towners can see what you guys are talking about.

flyingwil
03-13-2007, 03:51 PM
Does anyone have any pics to post of the ovens, so that the out of towners can see what you guys are talking about.


Here:
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a352/flyingwil/IMG_0681.jpg

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a352/flyingwil/IMG_0682.jpg

ShottsCruisers
03-13-2007, 03:58 PM
Oooo, that first one with South Butte in the background is suuuweeeeet!

Steve Curren
03-16-2007, 02:09 PM
Does anyone know the status of the Coke Ovens? I know they are closed but I have had friends asking about any progress with the owners as to helping clean up and maintain the area. It is such a shame that we have "people" who just seem not to be able to leave things alone and have to leave their mark like idiots.
Well, if anyone has info please let me know.

Thanks,
Steve

24HOURSOFNEVADA
03-22-2007, 03:49 AM
Wow! Those are kewl! or hot! I mean.









get it oven = hot. ok maybe it lost something in the translation. Thanks for the pics.

adventureduo
03-22-2007, 11:16 PM
We can still walk in right? Cause i haven't been there yet. It's on my list to-do.

Has anyone posted this on panamintcharlie.com? or read anything over there?

I'll see if i can find out anything more. My good friend just moved to live at Panamint
Springs resort year round. He was just at the ovens 2 weeks ago.

awalter
03-22-2007, 11:30 PM
We can still walk in right? Cause i haven't been there yet. It's on my list to-do.

Has anyone posted this on panamintcharlie.com? or read anything over there?

I'll see if i can find out anything more. My good friend just moved to live at Panamint
Springs resort year round. He was just at the ovens 2 weeks ago.



The coke ovens referred to here are in AZ. Don't confuse them with the ones in Death Valley.

Allen McMurtrie
02-21-2012, 12:34 AM
I received an email from the land owner of the Coke Ovens property. She is asking that the OHV community not trespass on their land, which includes the ovens and the home (what is left of it). They are having horrible vandalism issues, which is destroying that entire area.

I know that no one on this forum (and most in the area clubs) would vandalise that site, but lets respect the owners wishes and not drive in to the ovens if it is posted "no trespassing" or not (the signs are getting stolen or shot up).

Hi Scott

I'm looking for verification of the fact the ovens are closed. Without the actual notice from the owner LEO's cannot enforce trespass, and therefore people will keep visiting the ovens. If you have such an e-mail you should post it at the heading of your trip report and make it available to view, then maybe the million or so people on this interweb that disagree with you will find the truth!

I have confirmed the law and officers need at least 1 of:
1. the owner to trespass you
2. a sign that says keep out
3. a fence
to enforce, but none of those exist!

I believe the owner has the right to close it, but she has fallen short in her efforts to make it happen. Just telling you doesn't make the area legally closed to everyone.... just to you.

If you have the owners written request I'd be happy to help post it up on all the jeep websites and spread the word until it actually gets people stopping.

I'd rather work with the owner to get a club sponsorship for the area and keep it maintained and open.

Ozrockrat
02-21-2012, 01:45 AM
I know it is a difficult task but somewhere on the Cape (Australia, Cape York) there is a set of buildings that they have preserved and basically vandal proofed from what I can remember. I think it was the Old Laura Station (but that memory was a lot of beers ago. Could of been one of the telegraph stations). Along with working with the land owner to keep the place clean and limit access we could do something along the same lines.

I bet Ron Moon could quickly tell you which place I am thinking off and grab some photos.

I would be willing to help out!

ShottsCruisers
02-21-2012, 05:56 PM
Legal signs, fences, whatever won't keep those small percentages of irrisponsible and drunken wheelers out of closed places like the Ovens. It's a shame...but reality.

Allen McMurtrie
02-21-2012, 08:01 PM
true, but if signs were posted and those signs were photographed and posted here and other places then LEO's who find a drunken bash going on there WOULD be able to do something.... as of now they cannot!

Scott Brady
02-24-2012, 04:15 PM
Here are all of the emails. The only thing edited are the email address removed.


UPDATE: Added Email Dialog from Family. Contact information removed.


From: KARA TRAUT
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 9:47 PM
To: @expeditionswest.com
Subject: Coke Ovens trip

I have seen in your pictures that you have been right up to the coke ovens. I have read that they are on private land. Do you get permission from the owner to be there?


----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Brady
To: 'KARA TRAUT'
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 9:33 PM
Subject: RE: Coke Ovens trip

Hi Kara,

The Coke Ovens are on private land. There are just other ways to access the area and view the Ovens from a distance, without trespassing (if there is a trespassing issue at this time).

The southern route crosses the Gila near the old Cochran town site and the other parallels the Gila on the north side for several miles and then turns north at Walnut Canyon.

As far as the boundaries to the private land, I have not looked at a plat. I do know the actual ovens are on private land (or at least were), as many years ago one was modified for use as a unique motel.

Hope this help

What is your interest in the Ovens? Maybe I can help point you in the right direction for more information.

Scott Brady
Expeditions West
www.expeditionswest.com


My interest in the ovens is that my family owns them and I am sick about people thinking that they can go onto private land without permission. I am more sick that people think they have to vandalize. I realize that you are not one of those people. They are a historical site and soon they won't be there anymore. I wanted to know if anyone actually knows that they are privately owned and that they are trespassing when visiting there. Sorry that I singled you out, but you were the only one that was readily accessible. I just wish there was something I could do to keep the riff raff out, but our hands are tied. The law is on everyone else's side, not the landowners. We put signs up and have fenced it, but it doesn't matter.

Kara




----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Brady
To: 'KARA TRAUT'
Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 10:07 PM
Subject: RE: Coke Ovens trip

Kara,

I will update my website to reflect your wishes of no trespassing. I can also post the „no trespassing‰ request on the discussion forums that service Arizona OHV clubs. The effect it will have is minimal, as clubs rarely, if ever have vandalism problems. I even know of a few clubs that have done clean-up runs to the area of your property to fix some of the mess. The problem is the small groups of ATV and OHV users that are drinking and accessing the area. Nothing is sacred in their mind.

Historical sites throughout the area have been vandalized and destroyed. It is so heartbreaking that I do not go back to the Florence Junction area anymore. Martinez Canyon was closed for nearly a year due to vandalism.

5 million people are within a few hours of your property now∑an unsustainable situation.

Scott Brady
Expeditions West
www.expeditionswest.com


Scott, I appreciate that. But, like you say, it won't do any good anyway. We have put 'No Trespassing' signs right on the property and it hasn't helped. So the OHV clubs are jeeps and such that go? I saw one site that had 4-wheelers and dirt bikes pictures. I can imagine those are the people tearing up the roads as well.

I also appreciate that you appreciate the land. As I said before, I know you aren't one that is vandalizing.

Again, I apologize for singling you out. I was upset last night after seeing so many sites with pictures. But it is something that we have to live with because it will never be stopped. Pretty soon there won't be anything left to go see anyway.

Thanks for hanging in there with me!!

Kara


I forgot to mention:

I had no idea that people have gone out to pick up the place. That is a very nice gesture and I will be sure and tell my father that is being done. That does show that there are good people left. Thank you.

Kara


From: William Lorenz -
To:
Subject: Coke Oven Info

Scott -

We understand that you have been in contact with Kara Traut, daughter of Donn Lorenz, the Coke Oven property owner. She mentioned that you may want more information on this property.

Attached find photos of the Coke Oven property, circa 1992, in the original condition. Also note photo of fence repair across the trail.

See following email with property boundaries.

Sincerely,
William Lorenz
Son of Donn, owner


Bill,

Thank you so much for the email and follow-up. I apologize for the delayed reply, as I have been on an expedition to the Arctic: http://www.expeditionswest.com/arctic_ocean/index.htm

The images you share are heartbreaking. When I first started traveling to the ovens, your father still lived on the property. It was always a pleasure to visit.

Now, most of the area has been ransacked by our growing population of wildcat OHV’ers, principally ATV and dirt bike riders. I am sorry that your family must see the degradation of your fathers land and property at the hands of selfless individuals.

With your permission, I will post some of the images you sent to show the destruction of the property and how it looked in the past.

Is there any way the OHV community can support your family? I will relay your wishes to the community. Can we do a clean-up, post signs, help with maintenance, etc.? If your wish is that we simply “keep out”, then we will gladly respect that as well.

All the best Sir.

Regards,

Scott Brady
Expeditions West, LLC
www.expeditionswest.com


88240

88238

88239

Scott Brady
02-24-2012, 04:23 PM
I'm looking for verification of the fact the ovens are closed. Without the actual notice from the owner LEO's cannot enforce trespass, and therefore people will keep visiting the ovens. If you have such an e-mail you should post it at the heading of your trip report and make it available to view, then maybe the million or so people on this interweb that disagree with you will find the truth!


I have posted what you requested. The 'million' that disagree only do so because it serves their interest, not those of the family that made the request. And we wonder why trails get closed. . .

agavelvr
02-24-2012, 04:54 PM
From: KARA TRAUT
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 9:47 PM
To: @expeditionswest.com
Subject: Coke Ovens trip

I have seen in your pictures that you have been right up to the coke ovens. I have read that they are on private land. Do you get permission from the owner to be there?

I feel bad for land owners who suffer the effects of mindless vandalism of their property. I do find it odd that a family member of the "owner" would use such bait tactics to get information from you in the beginning of your exchange. What ever became of all the clubs posting no trespassing signs for the family and such. Did the family ever set up anything in this regard? It's been 5 years and little to nothing has been done?

If you are a property owner in remote areas, you enjoy the benefits of solitude but must be vigilent against predation by yahoos. It stinks, but that's reality. It is no different than personal protection in an unsavory urban area. You either prepare yourself for possible problems or choose not to go.

I bet the old guy that used to live there is a cool. It is unfortunate that the family has not stepped up their efforts to protect something that seems to be important to them.

Scott Brady
02-24-2012, 04:59 PM
Yeah Jeff, it was full bait and switch at the start of the exchange. I can see it from her perspective though and the fear of being attacked verbally, etc.

agavelvr
02-24-2012, 05:25 PM
After reading this again, there seems to be a PR issue in the OHV community in regards to the characterization of clubs vs random ATVs, bikers, etc.

In my experience, the organization of the user group has little to do with the land use ethic. Individuals rarely commit acts of vandalism or abuse in remote areas, rather a flawed individual is enpowered to do so when traveling in a group. People with vandal tendencies are generally doing their misdeeds for the attention of a peer group (be it good or bad).

The last time I was in the coke oven vicinity with some **EDIT** members, they triumphantly showed me some cell phone pics of their rigs, along with some of the club leadership's rigs possing on the coke ovens and pulling things out of the Martinez mill...this from the same club leaders who helped the blm with a mine inventory of the area and numerous cleanups.

I did a trail run in central Arizona, led by a company that teaches 4x4 driving. I "learned" that you should always close cattle gates (so the cattle die of thirst I guess), no matter how you find them. Then we proceeded to go "mudding" part of the General Crook Trail along with committing numerous other no-nos.

I have had to tell two Sierra Club members to pick up their butts during an interpretive hike I was leading for the forest service.

Even at the coke ovens back in the 90's, there was a modern trash pile, conveniently located just off property.

So, while driving a nice expedition vehicle or being in a club might project the image of stewardship, there is a given % of all populations that just suck plain and simple. Like a bad apple ruining the bunch, a lame person can swing a group into behaving badly almost unconsiously.

Locked doors keep honest people out, a trail closure in that area would probably result in increased vandalism. That's what I have seen out at the Butterfield Stage Area that was closed a few years ago...The last 3 times I have driven by there I have seen dirt bikes or dust clouds and it is well signed and fenced.

I honestly hope the land owners can find peace. It is so frustrating to have your land violated. At some point the frustration becomes motivation to sell or take appropriate action.

agavelvr
02-24-2012, 05:28 PM
Yeah Jeff, it was full bait and switch at the start of the exchange. I can see it from her perspective though and the fear of being attacked verbally, etc.

Yes, after having our own family property and animals damaged or stolen, I can relate to the emotions they probably are having. I wish there was a cure for the yahoo gene.

Adventure IQ
03-28-2012, 03:52 AM
Heart breaking.... My grand dad took me out there in late 70's early 80's. Sad we cant hang vandals

I Leak Oil
04-07-2012, 01:08 PM
...and therein lies the problem. There is no real disincentive for the law breakers. Even if caught it's nothing more than a scolding. Have we become too humanitarian to the criminal? Absolutely! Meanwhile the victim lives with the crime forever...

john101477
05-03-2012, 09:22 PM
Very sad that this type of thing happens. We used to have to fix fence often after dumb A#$es would cut the fences to bypass the gates.

...and therein lies the problem. There is no real disincentive for the law breakers. Even if caught it's nothing more than a scolding. Have we become too humanitarian to the criminal? Absolutely! Meanwhile the victim lives with the crime forever...

to answer this, yes! We are to soft on criminals at every degree. vandals and litterbugs should be forced to hand over their keys and then marched up and down the roads for miles until they have picked p every bit of garbage along side these roads. Automatic Community Service. Makes me mad when I see some idiot throw out a cig butt, a beer can, or even just spinning their tires so they dont have to get out and lock hubs...

Taco Gunner
05-26-2012, 05:31 PM
Good for the owners....