Help me pick a handgun

[BKCowGod]

I dunno why I keep waffling back and forth on this one, but I am. In the sub-$300 range, I am looking at a CZ-82, a used Ruger 9mm, and a Smith 4043. This will be for the lockbox in the truck and (as a very secondary use) for basic home defense. I like how cheap the ammo is for the CZ, and every report I have read says it's a pleasure to shoot. The 9mm has the appeal of being a non-orphaned round and being a much more modern frame. The Smith is just pretty, but I worry that I wouldn't get much practice with how expensive it would be to shoot (relative to the other two). In theory I would be the only shooter, but I would like for the wife to be able to operate it in a pinch.

Any thoughts are appreciated! And if anybody in Cali wants to sell me something, I am open to suggestions - I would be happy to partial trade my Marlin 795 and 500rds of .22

[akblack10]

If you are looking for a "defense" handgun... as you mentioned, It's hard to beat the reliability of a revolver. Yes they have fewer rounds than an auto but it's not likely you are going to get into a running gun battle with an intruder in your home. Additionally, if for "defense" you want to be sure that what or whom you shoot doesn't get back off the floor and shoot you again because you only made him angry with a .22 round to the buttocks. I recommend a .357 revolver or a.45 auto. I know we (collective we) hope to never have to pull a gun on someone invading our homes to do us harm, but if we are going to pull a gun we better be ready to use it! And if you have to use it... it better do the trick. Cost of ammo? I wouldn't worry too much about that, it won't take boxes and boxes of ammo to gain and maintain enough skill to feel confident with your weapon.

[BBsound]

an old police trade in Glock 17

[Colorado David]

Get a SigSauer P239 in .40. It is twice your budget, but you'll only have to buy it once.

[MotoDave]

I really recommend finding a range that has guns you can rent, and trying out as many as you can. There's no substitute for actually seeing how it feels in your hands while shooting.

[BKCowGod]

I really recommend finding a range that has guns you can rent, and trying out as many as you can. There's no substitute for actually seeing how it feels in your hands while shooting.

Probably should have mentioned - I have played with all three on my shortlist, and all feel good in my (admittedly inexperienced) hands. I am also not horribly prejudiced against the idea of a revolver, it just comes down to the incredibly shallow fact that I don't like the appearance as much as that of a classic automatic. If I get a screaming deal on a .38, I would probably grab one and call it a day.

I did not like how the Glock felt. No clue why, it just feels like a toy to me for some reason. Budget is not at all flexible, so the Sig is out of the running for the timebeing. Keep the tips coming!

[MotoDave]

My co-worker just picked up a used police issue SIG P225 or P6, I cant remember which. Its a 9mm single stack magazine. They are pretty cool, most have a cool patina from holster wear but havent been shot all that much. I think it was around the $300 mark.

[sjk99]

Does this list apply to your situation?

http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/safeguns.asp

[Colorado David]

I did not like how the Glock felt. No clue why, . . .

It might be the grip angle. I will get in trouble for saying so, but I seriously dislike the Glocks. One reason for me is the grip angle. If you are used to the feel of a 1911 or guns with a similar grip, the Glock will not feel right.

[BKCowGod]

Does this list apply to your situation?

http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/safeguns.asp

Yes it most certainly does...

[BKCowGod]

It might be the grip angle. I will get in trouble for saying so, but I seriously dislike the Glocks. One reason for me is the grip angle. If you are used to the feel of a 1911 or guns with a similar grip, the Glock will not feel right.

Wanna cry? Years ago, my dad traded the 1911 that my grandfather carried in WW2 for a case of beer. Among other stupid trades for which we have never forgiven him - 1953 Chevy Pickup (beer), Martin D-19 (beer), 1965 Porsche 911 (Volvo station wagon).

[TrailTrackers]

There is a solid reason why most law enforcement agencies in the country are issued and carry the Glock Model 22 (.40 cal).

'nuff said. :ar15:

[Colorado David]

There is a solid reason why most law enforcement agencies in the country are issued and carry the Glock Model 22 (.40 cal).

'nuff said. :ar15:

Yup. It's because they can't afford the SigSauers.:sombrero::bike_rider:

[BKCowGod]

There is a solid reason why most law enforcement agencies in the country are issued and carry the Glock Model 22 (.40 cal).

'nuff said. :ar15:

Yes - Glock has the best sales team. Same reason they almost all drive Crown Victorias.

[KG6BWS]

There is a solid reason why most law enforcement agencies in the country are issued and carry the Glock Model 22 (.40 cal).

'nuff said. :ar15:

Just because the AGENCIES issue them doesnt mean the OFFICERS like them. Ive talked to quite a few officers that cant stand the Glocks but thats what theyre told to carry. Same with several sheriffs I know who are issued the Beretta and dont like those either. I personally cant stand Glocks either. THey just dont feel right in my hands.

OP - If youre looking to get a gun strictly for self defense I highly recommend a revolver. Theyre the simplest to learn and theyre, no offense intended, completely idiot proof. If it has bullets in it you cannot screw up a revolver. On the other hand, with an auto, you could end up forgetting to rack the slide or accidently hit the mag release, etc.

If you're going to use it recreationally (ie. IDPA, IPSC, target shooting, etc.) and are going to spend the time to learn the gun and get seriously comfortable with it, well then an auto is fine. I personally like the 1911 frame, and have a Para Ordnance LDA .45acp that I love.

But I also have a Uberti Cattleman (cowboy style) in .45colt that is my mountain gun. I have it with me anytime I'm camping, fishing, hunting, exploring, etc. Its accurate, reliable, and foolproof. If I'm in the backcountry fishing, and something happens, I have it to defend myself if need be or to hunt with.

Im one of those people that follows the "rather have it and not need it then need it and not have it" rule.

[BIGdaddy]

best sub-$300.00 gun in my book is the Bersa thunder .380.

Its solid, reliable, and fits very well in my big hands due mostly to the thin single stack mag well as well as the pinky extension on the magazine itself.

It holds 7 or 8 rounds and .380, with good golden saber or good ball ammo, is likened to the 38 special as far as power goes.

(no-one being shot with 7 center-mass rounds is going to stop and ask what caliber it is..hahaha)

I just traded mine to my dad, for some jeep parts, and don't regret it due to the circumstances. It certainly wasn't due to anything on the guns part, be assured.

I wouldn't feel undergunned at all in the back country or in a downtown area, because of four things:

-I was a bulls-eye shooter @ 15 yards with it
-It was small enough that I always had it
-It never failed to fire or feed, once broken in (540ish rounds)
-I had three well-tested mags as backup.

[KG6BWS]

Went and found the paperwork on my .45 colt. Might meet your sub 300.

Its a Uberti Cattleman 1875 with 4 5/8" barrel, in .45colt. Was 360 including all of the fees, tax, etc.

[BKCowGod]

Went and found the paperwork on my .45 colt. Might meet your sub 300.

Its a Uberti Cattleman 1875 with 4 5/8" barrel, in .45colt. Was 360 including all of the fees, tax, etc.

I do like this one, looks to be the same as you are describing... MSRP is $580, so it sounds like you got a good deal!
http://www.uberti.com/firearms/images/1873_cattleman_chisholm_nm.jpg

[Colorado David]

If the purpose of the gun is defense, whether in the truck lock box or in the home, I think you should stick to a double action.

[nebep]

I've found the Ruger LCP to be a very capable unit - price was right around where you seem to want to be...The in-pocket holster by Don Hume is a tad pricey, but VERY comfy...

S&W Airweight is a nice unit too - but, it is a firecracker!! (.38 - and *MY* wife HATES it!!)

SIG P250 - out of budget, but, would be worth saving for. (Wife LUVS this one..9mm.)

Don't leave KAHR out of the picture...Personal taste - CW45. The PM's are stellar as well.

Remember, in a defense situation, even if you're right, it probably won't be yours anymore. So, choose the defense wisely, and don't hesitate to buy 2.

[sjk99]

You can do some web window shopping at J&G Guns of Prescott, AZ. They carry some police trade-ins and some other surplus. Add whatever your dealer charges for a transfer & ....

Sig P6(225) 9mm single stack German Police trade-in $349 (http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/handguns/sig-sauer/p/sig-p6-p225-9mm-caliber%2C-semi-auto-sig-sauer-pistol-very-good-condition/cPath/16_234/products_id/1903)

Glock 23 40S&W police turn-in $379. (http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/p/glock-23-40s-w%2C-2nd-gen%2C-vg-condition-/products_id/3957) Looked like it was on the Cali list (?)

Ruger KP95R 9mm 339.95. (http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/ruger/semi-auto/p/ruger-model-kp-95pr-9mm-new-semi-auto-pistol-/cPath/16_148_485/products_id/1725) Looks like it's on the list.

[Scenic WonderRunner]

I love my Browning Hi Power....9mm.

I bought it for the history....the NATO Round and the very few moving parts. I think I could feed it in a Homeland war, that's why I bought it back in the mid 1980's! It has already gone up in value!

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/browning_hp_3.jpg

http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/family.asp?webflag_=007B&catalog_=B

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/HiPowerComments.html



But this is my dream hand gun!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__JkOUheyVk

http://www.magnumresearch.com/




.

[Scenic WonderRunner]

.50 Action Express..... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50_Action_Express)


Holy!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/82/CartridgeComparison.jpg/400px-CartridgeComparison.jpg



What would you prefer in your handgun?!!!!




.

[Martinjmpr]

If your criteria is:

* Easy to use/learn

* Reliable with any kind of ammo

* Safe

* Rugged

* Under $300

Then you can't do better than this:

http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/p/smith-wesson-model-67-38spl-4in-stainless%2C-dao-very-good-plus-condition/products_id/4120?osCsid=2fcd23fac96ab7642a1ef377dc6576f0

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z256/ZappBranigan/Misc%20pictures/m67.jpg

Smith and Wesson M67, Stainless Steel, .38 Special, 4" barrell Police trade-in guns, modified to double-action-only. A screaming deal for under $300. The M67 has adjustable sights. A buddy of mine just got a model 64 (same thing but with fixed sights, a stainless version of the M10) for $200 from J&G.

I'm a big fan of revolvers, especially for a "casual use" self defense gun. Autos are nice but their biggest advantage is magazine size - a factor that is irrelevant in a self defense situation (where typically no more than 3 shots are fired.) Automatics require more training and are much more prone to accidental discharge (look at the statistics of police agencies that switched from revolvers to autos in the 1980s and 1990s.)

If you don't need stainless, you can get a M15 for under $225:

http://www.jgsales.com/product_info.php/p/smith-wesson-model-15%2C-38spl-4in%2C-dao-good-to-very-good-condition/products_id/4124?osCsid=2fcd23fac96ab7642a1ef377dc6576f0

Some people dismiss the .38 special round but with the proper bullet it's every bit as good as a 9mm for self defense.

As for quality, S&W is one of the best out there. I trust my life to a S&W revolver that's at least 30 years old.

IMO A used $279 S&W is a much better buy than a new <$300 Rossi or Taurus.

[Mercedesrover]

Smith and Wesson M67, Stainless Steel, .38 Special, 4" barrell Police trade-in guns........IMO A used $279 S&W is a much better buy than a new <$300 Rossi or Taurus.

AB SO LUT LEY!!!! For the money and your use, you won't beat this.

This isn't going to be a shooter. It'll spend 99.9% of its time locked up in your truck. You want a revolver for sure.

[6Pins]

I'd agree on the revolver. I've got a Colt Detective special that is my HD gun, and its every bit of 40 years old. Still shoots like a charm, and the grip is small enough that my wife has no problems with it.

[Mr. Leary]

.50 Action Express..... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50_Action_Express)


Holy!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/82/CartridgeComparison.jpg/400px-CartridgeComparison.jpg



What would you prefer in your handgun?!!!!




.

Off topic...

Well... I personally prefer a round that allows rapid re-acquisition. If you know how to shoot, all it should ever take is two to the chest, one to the head. 9mm has many advantages. Chambering a bigger round gives you more beef, but is expensive and hard to handle. My favorite pistol to shoot is my Baretta 92.

Back on topic...

Double action. Do it.

You will never stick a wheel gun. Think of them as the Toyotas of handguns. They may not be the slickest peice around, but they won't let you down! The gun I carry with me most often while out and about is my Taurus Judge. The simplicity and reliability of a wheel gun is what I want if I have to act when I'm not at my best. I have never faced a situation where I needed to pull out a firearm on my terms. You need to be ready to meet them at a time of your attacker's choosing, which like I said is often not at your best. I feel confident that my wheel gun will do the job if asked, with no issues.

[Gunnslinger]

If you are an inexperienced shooter the revolver, in my opinion, may be the way to go. I would consider the .357 magnum and am personally fond of the ruger DA revolvers (GP100 and SP101). The SP101 will conceal well.

A used Ruger Blackhawk SA revolver would probably be in your price range as well. My father carried one for years and was deadly with it. It does not conceal well.

The .357 will deliver more energy on target. With 180 grain loads from Buffalo Bore (for example), it may even persuade a bear or other large predator to stop eating you (if not, repeat as necessary). Two legged predators can be persuaded more effectively as well.
I believe most of the .357 revolvers will also chamber the .38 special cartridges for practice or reduced recoil if you feel that is relevant. Ammunition is precious these days, having a choice of two common calibers is a good thing.

At the end of the day, mindset and skill with the weapon and not the weapon itself will win the fight. Save your money and get training. Gunsite is my prefered venue but there are many others that provide excellent training. There are also many to be very wary of, ask around before you sign up.

Unsolicited advice: Wear the pistol. Left in a car or a dresser drawer it will probably make an interesting prize for whoever kills you. If I have to go and fetch a weapon, it will probably be a 12 gauge.

Remember:
All guns are loaded. It is not safe to assume otherwise, handle them accordingly.

Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.

Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.

Positively identify your target (and what's behind it).

[SunTzuNephew]

Yup. It's because they can't afford the SigSauers.:sombrero::bike_rider:

About the only agencies that can are paid with federal tax dollars...

There's nothing magical about Sigs..

[BKCowGod]

If you are an inexperienced shooter the revolver, in my opinion, may be the way to go. I would consider the .357 magnum and am personally fond of the ruger DA revolvers (GP100 and SP101). The SP101 will conceal well.

A used Ruger Blackhawk SA revolver would probably be in your price range as well. My father carried one for years and was deadly with it. It does not conceal well.

The .357 will deliver more energy on target. With 180 grain loads from Buffalo Bore (for example), it may even persuade a bear or other large predator to stop eating you (if not, repeat as necessary). Two legged predators can be persuaded more effectively as well.
I believe most of the .357 revolvers will also chamber the .38 special cartridges for practice or reduced recoil if you feel that is relevant. Ammunition is precious these days, having a choice of two common calibers is a good thing.

At the end of the day, mindset and skill with the weapon and not the weapon itself will win the fight. Save your money and get training. Gunsite is my prefered venue but there are many others that provide excellent training. There are also many to be very wary of, ask around before you sign up.

Unsolicited advice: Wear the pistol. Left in a car or a dresser drawer it will probably make an interesting prize for whoever kills you. If I have to go and fetch a weapon, it will probably be a 12 gauge.

Remember:
All guns are loaded. It is not safe to assume otherwise, handle them accordingly.

Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.

Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.

Positively identify your target (and what's behind it).

Thanks for the continued advice, y'all. Just a few further notes to explain why I am dismissing some of it:

* Concealment is not an option, nor (for the most part) is wearing it most of the time. In Cali, when it is in a car it is locked in a box unloaded. When it's not in a car, it must also be unloaded. Because of this, size is less important than comfort.

* The reason I am leaning automatic is because 99.99% of my shooting will be at targets, so the extra 4rds capacity of most automatics and the ability to load multiple magazines will be a huge time saver. Additionally, again due to the state I live in, when it is worn on my belt it must be visibly unloaded. I would rather have a loaded magazine on one side and a gun on the other than have a revolver that would take longer to load.

I really do like the .38's at JG, but I am still wondering (back to my original question), which would be preferable of my three original choices - 9x18 Mak, .9mm, or .40S&W and why.

Oh, and Mr. Leary - the absolutely best way to make me decide against anything is to compare it to a Toyota. I just can't stand 'em - I've driven every model they have made in the last few decades and I absolutely hate how they feel. But I do understand what you were getting at and the advice is taken to heart. Honestly, I would love to have a Smith revolver and the CZ-82, but I can only afford one for now.

[Gunnslinger]

If I only had those three calibers to choose from and given the unlikely possibility of a defensive engagement due to the weapons unavailability, the 9mm parabellum is probably the cheapest to shoot.

[Scenic WonderRunner]

If I only had those three calibers to choose from and given the unlikely possibility of a defensive engagement due to the weapons unavailability, the 9mm parabellum is probably the cheapest to shoot.

This is why I posted the Round choice question.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/82/CartridgeComparison.jpg/400px-CartridgeComparison.jpg

Because the round choice....can also guide you to the proper handgun for you. It's a Personal Choice.

And remember! Nobody says, you can only have just one.



,

[njsjeep]

I haven't read every post in this thread so I may be commenting without enough information. It sounds like the intent of the original poster is to acquire a handgun for mostly recreational use and fun. I'm going to go against everyone else and recommend a match grade .22 like the Smith and Wesson model 41 pistol

A match grade pistol isn't cheap initially but they aren't too difficult to find used. The advantage the .22 rimfire is that you can shoot thousands of rounds more cheaply and with less physical wear and tear than you can with a larger caliber round.

Learning to shoot well is much more important than making a big blast and the best way to do that is shoot thousands of rounds with a quality handgun.

With a quality match grade pistol, even a .22, it is possible to set up the grips to be similar to a larger caliber pistol. This makes it easy to use a larger caliber without having to alter shooting technique.

[Scenic WonderRunner]

I haven't read every post in this thread so I may be commenting without enough information. It sounds like the intent of the original poster is to acquire a handgun for mostly recreational use and fun. I'm going to go against everyone else and recommend a match grade .22 like the Smith and Wesson model 41 pistol

A match grade pistol isn't cheap initially but they aren't too difficult to find used. The advantage the .22 rimfire is that you can shoot thousands of rounds more cheaply and with less physical wear and tear than you can with a larger caliber round.

Learning to shoot well is much more important than making a big blast and the best way to do that is shoot thousands of rounds with a quality handgun.

With a quality match grade pistol, even a .22, it is possible to set up the grips to be similar to a larger caliber pistol. This makes it easy to use a larger caliber without having to alter shooting technique.




Read Every Post.....!




.

[Fireman78]

CZ=crap

[Riptide]

Let me add my two cents, since I recently was on a "house gun" quest...

You mentioned that maybe the wife might have need to use the weapon. Can your wife clear a jam? Does she shoot with a firm wrist?

Mine cannot, and so that ruled any semi-automatic out. (Nuts. Had to go buy another gun, but this time with her full knowledge and blessing...).

In the end, I settled on a couple of Ruger SP101's, in .327 Federal. Stone reliable, and wife-friendly.

Just something to think about.

[BKCowGod]

I haven't read every post in this thread so I may be commenting without enough information. It sounds like the intent of the original poster is to acquire a handgun for mostly recreational use and fun. I'm going to go against everyone else and recommend a match grade .22 like the Smith and Wesson model 41 pistol

A match grade pistol isn't cheap initially but they aren't too difficult to find used. The advantage the .22 rimfire is that you can shoot thousands of rounds more cheaply and with less physical wear and tear than you can with a larger caliber round.

Learning to shoot well is much more important than making a big blast and the best way to do that is shoot thousands of rounds with a quality handgun.

With a quality match grade pistol, even a .22, it is possible to set up the grips to be similar to a larger caliber pistol. This makes it easy to use a larger caliber without having to alter shooting technique.

Thanks for the tip, and I have looked very closely at a few .22's. Thanks also for reading my initial post - you are completely right on my main use and intent. I don't expect to ever have to shoot anything bipedal (or quadrapedal... and for that matter, probably no reason to shoot snakes or fish or insects either). I own guns because I am fascinated by anything both precise and mechanical. I shoot guns because I own guns, and because it is an interesting and fun challenge. That's why the CZ was so appealing - at less than $.23/rd, it's about equal to the cheapest 9mm ammo, and the CZ is a more interesting weapon.

Oh, and Fireman - thanks for the review. A bit more detail, perhaps (since yours is the first negative thing about the CZ-82 I have heard)?

[njsjeep]

Thanks BKCowGod. Another thing you might consider is learning Reflex or Instinctive shooting. It isn't too difficult to learn and a lot of fun but requires a LOT of practice, like thousands of rounds a month. The basic idea is that when you look at something quickly and point at it you naturally tend to point at the center. Try taping a laser pointer to your finger to see what I mean. You then have to learn to make the handgun an extension of your arm/finger. This requires essentially a perfect, consistent almost painfully tight grip using one or both hands and lots of practice. Using a well made pistol and cheap ammo makes it easier to shoots hundreds of rounds at a time to practice.

[bucketosudz]

Oh, and Fireman - thanks for the review. A bit more detail, perhaps (since yours is the first negative thing about the CZ-82 I have heard)?

X2 I have only heard good things as well.

[jnelson4x4taco]

I dont claim to be knowledgeable about guns, by any stretch of the imagination and some very well may disagree with my logic and theory but here goes..

For home defense I purchased a Mossberg 500 .12 gauge pump shotgun with a 18" and 27" barrels. At home I keep the 18" barrel on and stagger 00 buckshot with steel slugs. From what ive heard from friends and family in law enforcement, someone on drugs (meth, coke, etc.) can stand a 9mm shot and even a .40 cal shot and keep coming. for that, I want to be prepared with a big kaboom! Additionally, the thought of being accurate, late at night, awoken from a dead sleep, with shaky hands, a thumping heart and and a groggy mind, didnt seem realistic. The impact area of a bullet is pretty small, but the impact area of 00 buck out of an 18" barrel gives me a much better chance of hitting my target and being able to follow it up with a slug. In addition to the firepower behind a shotgun, the sound of racking a shotgun will deter all but the ballsiest intruders, given you hear them. Like you all, its something I hope to never encounter. Also like you, if I ever do find myself in that position, you bet im gonna empty those shells to protect my family.

Regarding a handgun to carry in the woods/truck, sorry, cant help you there, but I am following this thread as im considering the same type of gun for myself.

[KG6BWS]

I dont claim to be knowledgeable about guns, by any stretch of the imagination and some very well may disagree with my logic and theory but here goes..

For home defense I purchased a Mossberg 500 .12 gauge pump shotgun with a 18" and 27" barrels. At home I keep the 18" barrel on and stagger 00 buckshot with steel slugs. From what ive heard from friends and family in law enforcement, someone on drugs (meth, coke, etc.) can stand a 9mm shot and even a .40 cal shot and keep coming. for that, I want to be prepared with a big kaboom! Additionally, the thought of being accurate, late at night, awoken from a dead sleep, with shaky hands, a thumping heart and and a groggy mind, didnt seem realistic. The impact area of a bullet is pretty small, but the impact area of 00 buck out of an 18" barrel gives me a much better chance of hitting my target and being able to follow it up with a slug. In addition to the firepower behind a shotgun, the sound of racking a shotgun will deter all but the ballsiest intruders, given you hear them. Like you all, its something I hope to never encounter. Also like you, if I ever do find myself in that position, you bet im gonna empty those shells to protect my family.

Regarding a handgun to carry in the woods/truck, sorry, cant help you there, but I am following this thread as im considering the same type of gun for myself.

Nothing wrong with the logic, but you would be better off with either goose loads or just the buckshot. A goose load at close range would do some SERIOUS damage to an intruder but not go thru any walls. Your buckshot will definately do damage, but may or may not go thru a wall.

Unless the intruder was wearing body armor, a slug that close would probably go thru your intruder, and several walls before stopping. A miss would probably go thru the house.

[jnelson4x4taco]

A goose load at close range would do some SERIOUS damage to an intruder but not go thru any walls. Your buckshot will definately do damage, but may or may not go thru a wall.

Probably true, and something i will look into. As I said, I dont know a lot about guns or ammo beyond safety. Without getting too far off topic, since this thread was about handguns, my intent for owning a self defense weapon is not to do "damage". My intent is to make sure that the person who intended to victimize, hurt, steal or do worse to my family does not have the chance to sue my ***** of for doing "serious damage" to them.

[Gunnslinger]

"probably no reason to shoot snakes or fish or insects either"

No reason to shoot snakes, fish or insects? That's crazy talk.

A really big nest of wasps and a red ryder BB gun can provide nearly endless hours of amusement.

[KG6BWS]

"probably no reason to shoot snakes or fish or insects either"

No reason to shoot snakes, fish or insects? That's crazy talk.

A really big nest of wasps and a red ryder BB gun can provide nearly endless hours of amusement.

Maybe for you. Im allergic to the damn things. My policy is "You leave me alone and Ill leave you alone".

[robert]

The CZ-82, like most of CZs guns, is actually a good choice. They are typical Comm-bloc guns in that the finish isn't as nice as some and the trigger pull is usually heavy out of the box. Change the springs out for some from Wolff Gunsprings and you should be happy (see some of the internet CZ forums for recommendations based on your chosen loads). Personally I like the 9x18 (Mak) round but it tends to feel snappier in the hand- most of the guns chambered for it are blowback operated like a .380 instead of a locked breach like most 9mm and above. Recoil is a personal thing though- shoot what's comfortable for you. There are .380 barrels available for it too. If you are going to load it for social work I would go with something like the Hornady HPs.

Ruger makes a reliable pistol, but they are heavy clunky feeling things in my hand and I just don't care for them. The only Smith pistols I like are their 1911s. A used S&W revolver on the other hand would definitely be a good choice too.

I would prefer a 9mm (9x19) over a 9mm Mak (9x18) or .380ACP (9x17). I do not like .40s; don't like the recoil and don't see that it does anything better than a good 9mm and certainly not better than a .45.



Incidentally, anyone who thinks a goose load (or birdshot) won't go through a wall needs to go to your local big box store and get some pieces of scrap drywall and shoot it. Even birdshot will usually penetrate drywall within the short ranges within a house*. Usually the wad does too. Folks generally overestimate the distances they are likely to be shooting, underestimate how far a shotgun round will go, overestimate how much a shotgun round will open up within that range and overestimate how far a handgun round will go. Know what's behind your intended target; if you are worried about it then shoot Israeli crowd style- take a knee and shoot at an upward angle so that you minimize the chances of a round striking someone on the same level as yourself.

* If anyone ever tells you that birdshot is a good home defense round just thank them for their time, smile and walk away knowing that they're an idiot. Anything less than buckshot will not retain enough energy to reliably penetrate deeply enough into a body to disrupt major organs. That's not to say birdshot won't do the job, it just won't penetrate to 12" reliably or retain enough energy to do it's job (FBI standards). Read the FBI tests and reports, the coroner's reports and talk to the medics on the streets and doctors in the ERs. It produces some nasty looking wounds, but most aren't fatal nor do they incapacitate reliably. Yes, a duplex/goose load may work within a house, I've never seen anyone shot with one or read a report of it.

[BKCowGod]

I finally got a chance to play with a CZ-83 (to compare to an -82) and I am sold on the -82. Will be ordering from J&G shortly!

Thanks all for the advice...

[robert]

Congrats, I think you'll be happy with it. You'll have to post some pictures and a report on it when you get it. Be sure and order extra magazines with it as they can be hard to find. The Wolff Springs will help that trigger too.

[calamaridog]

Hopefully you are getting a 9mm not a .380?

[BKCowGod]

Hopefully you are getting a 9mm not a .380?

Of course... Look at that cheap ammo!

[robert]

The CZ82 is 9mm Makarov (9x18) NOT 9mm parabellum (9x19). Do not interchange the two! Incidentally, .380 is 9x17. A .380 conversion barrel is or at least used to be available but there's not much reason to buy one as the Mak ammo is more available than the .380 right now and lots cheaper.

I've had good luck with the Silver Bear ammo- every round of it I've shot has gone bang.

[BKCowGod]

The CZ82 is 9mm Makarov (9x18) NOT 9mm parabellum (9x19). Do not interchange the two! Incidentally, .380 is 9x17. A .380 conversion barrel is or at least used to be available but there's not much reason to buy one as the Mak ammo is more available than the .380 right now and lots cheaper.

I've had good luck with the Silver Bear ammo- every round of it I've shot has gone bang.

Yah, as tempted as I am by thr $9/50rd Brown Bear, I figure I could pony up a little bit more and go for the good stuff. Any recommendations for load? Looks like 94 or 100gr are the two most common choices.

[robert]

It's a comm bloc gun, why not run commie ammo in it? For plinking, it's hard to beat. I've read where people have chrono'd it and said it has a bit more of a spread than say US ammo but nothing I would worry about. It's definitely not target grade ammo though. For social work/carry ammo the Hornady's JHP seem to be the hands down favorite. Whatever you decide on, buy several boxes and make sure it runs reliably with that ammo.

I've got a PA63 as a truck gun (they used to be $99 from J&G) which has an aluminum frame. It's not recommended to run anything over 94 grains or as hot as some of the newer loads so I haven't tried them; the Hornady's are 95gr. The CZ is a steel frame so you should have no issues with any of the heavier bullets available. I've got several boxes of the Silver Bear FMJ and several of the Silver Bear HPs and I've never had a problem with either. The HPs don't mushroom as pretty as a modern well designed JHP, but they do deform and in my nonscientific, nonprofessional testing the difference when shooting a gallon jug of water was obvious.

[BKCowGod]

And it is ordered!!! Full writeup will be posted. On an aside, I visited City Arms in Pacifica and Bay Area Gun Vault in Sunnyvale/Mt. View, and I emailed three or four different FFL's online. CA and BAGV treated me like trash because I didn't want to buy a new Sig or Les Baer 1911 from their shelves - and I initially walked in asking to see their used selection, NOT asking to do an FFL transfer! None of the FFL's bothered to respond to my emails at all (some as many as three months later!).

UG Imports (http://www.ugimports.com) (in Fremont) responded to my email in less than 30 minutes with a well-reasoned, clear, and very friendly and welcoming response. They also didn't tack any surcharge onto any of the mandatory fees, and they charged half of what the others were charging. Guess who's gonna get my business in the future?

[Fireman78]

Hey I wasn't trying to offend anyone. I love you guys!
I just think these types of forums are funny because these are people's opinions. My OPINION is that CZ's are crap-ola. I feel the same way about EAA. (European American Arms).
I have been shooting pistols and other various weapons for my entire life. I have been a US Army Paratrooper, a State Policeman, and a farm boy, all equally good with guns.
It is my opinion that a 275 dollar piece of communist junk is just that...junk.. Hold one in your hands, shoot one, feel one, compare it to a nice, well made firearm.
Learn how to clear a stoppage though.

I also find it funny that it is perfectly acceptable to spend 2000 on a tent, 1000 on a fridge, 30K plus on a vehicle, 1400 on a set of tires, several grand on recovery gear, 2000 on a winch, ect... but when it comes to a small piece of equipment that can actually save your life in a split second, cheap is OK. I just don't get it.

[SunTzuNephew]

And it is ordered!!! Full writeup will be posted. On an aside, I visited City Arms in Pacifica and Bay Area Gun Vault in Sunnyvale/Mt. View, and I emailed three or four different FFL's online. CA and BAGV treated me like trash because I didn't want to buy a new Sig or Les Baer 1911 from their shelves - and I initially walked in asking to see their used selection, NOT asking to do an FFL transfer! None of the FFL's bothered to respond to my emails at all (some as many as three months later!).

UG Imports (http://www.ugimports.com) (in Fremont) responded to my email in less than 30 minutes with a well-reasoned, clear, and very friendly and welcoming response. They also didn't tack any surcharge onto any of the mandatory fees, and they charged half of what the others were charging. Guess who's gonna get my business in the future?


Something I was surprised at when I moved out of California....the people in gun shops in Arizona and Montana are actually friendly: A characteristic I rarely (if ever) saw at the shops I'd frequent in the Los Angeles area (Martin B. Retting, B&B when they were open, Kings Guns mostly).

I think thats because they are so imposed on by the state they feel like they're under attack, and respond to everyone like they're an agent of ATFE or the state trying to screw them over.

I don't know (myself) what the shops actually go through but I think that the successful shops would at least treat their customers or potential customers decently. And thats what I get, outside the Black Hole State.

[Scenic WonderRunner]

Hey I wasn't trying to offend anyone. I love you guys!
I just think these types of forums are funny because these are people's opinions. My OPINION is that CZ's are crap-ola. I feel the same way about EAA. (European American Arms).
I have been shooting pistols and other various weapons for my entire life. I have been a US Army Paratrooper, a State Policeman, and a farm boy, all equally good with guns.
It is my opinion that a 275 dollar piece of communist junk is just that...junk.. Hold one in your hands, shoot one, feel one, compare it to a nice, well made firearm.
Learn how to clear a stoppage though.

I also find it funny that it is perfectly acceptable to spend 2000 on a tent, 1000 on a fridge, 30K plus on a vehicle, 1400 on a set of tires, several grand on recovery gear, 2000 on a winch, ect... but when it comes to a small piece of equipment that can actually save your life in a split second, cheap is OK. I just don't get it.

I agree......

I would never even think of buying this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%8CZ_vz._82

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg26-e.htm

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/cz83.jpg


How about we start to think about Buying American?





.

[TACODOC]

Nothing wrong with CZ's or most eastern block/chicom weapons IMHO. In fact, the AK series is arguably the best mass produced military rifle ever.

That being said, American steel is what lives in my gun safe because that's what I choose to buy :ylsmoke:

YMMV

[BKCowGod]

Hey I wasn't trying to offend anyone. I love you guys!
I just think these types of forums are funny because these are people's opinions. My OPINION is that CZ's are crap-ola. I feel the same way about EAA. (European American Arms).
I have been shooting pistols and other various weapons for my entire life. I have been a US Army Paratrooper, a State Policeman, and a farm boy, all equally good with guns.
It is my opinion that a 275 dollar piece of communist junk is just that...junk.. Hold one in your hands, shoot one, feel one, compare it to a nice, well made firearm.
Learn how to clear a stoppage though.

I also find it funny that it is perfectly acceptable to spend 2000 on a tent, 1000 on a fridge, 30K plus on a vehicle, 1400 on a set of tires, several grand on recovery gear, 2000 on a winch, ect... but when it comes to a small piece of equipment that can actually save your life in a split second, cheap is OK. I just don't get it.

Funny thing is, I held one in my hands and then I held a Glock 17 and I preferred the CZ. My concern wasn't with your opinion - I was looking for opinions. My request was for you to back up those opinions so I could know why you came to those conclusions, thereby contributing to the thread.

Yours still remains the single dissenting voice from anybody who has shot one of these guns. Based on the otherwise universally good reviews, I bought one and am fully expecting to enjoy it.

[BKCowGod]

I agree......
How about we start to think about Buying American?
.

I would never limit myself to a single country. I buy German cars because they're the best. I buy American tools because they are the best.

[Fireman78]

Funny thing is... one of my favorite weapons I own is as American as apple pie. A Springfield XD 45. (made in Croatia!! .. NO KIDDING).. LOL

Hey if YOU like a particular weapon and YOU can shoot well with it and YOU are comfortable with it...., that's all that matters, really. :sombrero:

[DaveInDenver]

I would never limit myself to a single country. I buy German cars because they're the best. I buy American tools because they are the best.
Well, technically, you bought a Czech tool if you think about it. Says the guy who drives a Japanese-made Hilux, eh? Anywho, my tools were made in Springfield, MA, and Southport, CT... I do think first and foremost you have to use what feels right to you. Doesn't matter if it has the 'right' place of manufacture if you're in the hospital or dead.

[BKCowGod]

Well, technically, you bought a Czech tool of sorts... Says the guy who drives a Japanese-made Hilux, eh? Anywho, my tools were made in Springfield, MA, and Fairfield, CT... I do think first and foremost you have to use what feels right to you. Doesn't matter if it has the 'right' place of manufacture if you're in the hospital or dead.

No, I bought Craftsman tools. I own a Czech, a Russian, and an American gun. I own two German cars, a Japanese compact truck which is not a hilux, and an American fullsize truck. Like I said - I don't limit myself to any manufacturer or place of manufacture. I do try to avoid China as much as possible, and have refused for the last decade to own a Toyota - but that's just because I hate their interiors and their brakes.

[BKCowGod]

Funny thing is... one of my favorite weapons I own is as American as apple pie. A Springfield XD 45. (made in Croatia!! .. NO KIDDING).. LOL

Hey if YOU like a particular weapon and YOU can shoot well with it and YOU are comfortable with it...., that's all that matters, really. :sombrero:

I do like those XD's - some day, when I have a gun safe and a budget that doesn't call for $600 trucks :victory:

[DaveInDenver]

No, I bought Craftsman tools. I own a Czech, a Russian, and an American gun. I own two German cars, a Japanese compact truck which is not a hilux, and an American fullsize truck. Like I said - I don't limit myself to any manufacturer or place of manufacture. I do try to avoid China as much as possible, and have refused for the last decade to own a Toyota - but that's just because I hate their interiors and their brakes.
LOL! I've always considered firearms as tools. ;-) Yeah, Toyota, I'd consider replacing mine with something with a superior interior and brakes when it dies. It clicked over 220,132 miles (corrected to about 240,000 when you consider the +/- 15% tires/gearing mismatched for the last 9 years) on the drive back from skiing today so I guess I have a while to worry about it. Silly foreign crap. Good thing about mediocre brakes is it's not really much of a problem with only 120 HP. We only own the one truck, so manufacturing diversity is not in our vocabulary.

[Fireman78]

Sorry if I've been a little crabby. my mother in law just moved in with us. I can't seem to find a way out of this one at the moment. Speaking of "cheaper" guns.. i have been fairly impressed with the KelTec line. I have a small 32 caliber that is really really small. I know, I know, 32 cal right... well, I always remember some advise I heard a long time ago. .."The best gun in the world is the one you have with you".

[BKCowGod]

Sorry if I've been a little crabby. my mother in law just moved in with us. I can't seem to find a way out of this one at the moment. Speaking of "cheaper" guns.. i have been fairly impressed with the KelTec line. I have a small 32 caliber that is really really small. I know, I know, 32 cal right... well, I always remember some advise I heard a long time ago. .."The best gun in the world is the one you have with you".

Don't even worry about it - One must always remember that text can not convey emotion. In person, you will find me to be one of the most thick-skinned and sarcastic people ever. I really do appreciate your opinion, and if we ever get to meet around a campfire maybe we can swap guns and fire off a few rounds to compare back to back...

[BKCowGod]

LOL! I've always considered firearms as tools. ;-) Yeah, Toyota, I'd consider replacing mine with something with a superior interior and brakes when it dies. It clicked over 220,132 miles (corrected to about 240,000 when you consider the +/- 15% tires/gearing mismatched for the last 9 years) on the drive back from skiing today so I guess I have a while to worry about it. Silly foreign crap. Good thing about mediocre brakes is it's not really much of a problem with only 120 HP. We only own the one truck, so manufacturing diversity is not in our vocabulary.

Haha - it's funny... I recommend Toyotas to my non-car-guy friends because they are the logical choice. But when I was selling and renting cars, I grew to absolutely hate the ergonomics and the feel of the interiors. I think they're great vehicles that are horribly suited to my needs.

[Scenic WonderRunner]

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/75/products_id/52387

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/images/D11/52/52387.jpg

Cheap is cheap. I'm all about saving money. But I'm careful when I choose my handgun/firearms.

Here is another good choice. And it's made in the USA.

Many other very good USA Choices out there!

.

[BKCowGod]

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/75/products_id/52387



Cheap is cheap. I'm all about saving money. But I'm careful when I choose my handgun/firearms.

Here is another good choice. And it's made in the USA.

Many other very good USA Choices out there!

.

I'm careful too - thus why I chose the CZ! Looking forward to experiencing for myself all the accuracy and quality that I have been reading about and researching for the last 6 months.

[calamaridog]

What tangible benefit is there to "buying American" when it comes to firearms?

If your argument centers around Ruger semi-autos then you have already lost:victory:

[maXTERRA]

I've got a CZ75sa in.40 I bought maybe 10 yrs ago when they were a but cheaper than some of the other guns ($350-ish).
Been a great gun and very accurate shooter, being the single-action trigger.
Feels very good in the hand , too!

No complaints here at all on their quality.

[BKCowGod]

What tangible benefit is there to "buying American" when it comes to firearms?

If your argument centers around Ruger semi-autos then you have already lost:victory:

The benefit comes from a belief that we do not live in a world economy. It also becomes an especially moot point when one buys used - I doubt the 1989 Communist government of the Czech Republic much cares at this point that I bought one of the guns that was made for their police force.

Similarly, I'm not sure how much the people of West Germany were affected by my decision to purchase a 1986 Porsche instead of a 1986 Corvette.

[Martinjmpr]

The benefit comes from a belief that we do not live in a world economy. It also becomes an especially moot point when one buys used - I doubt the 1989 Communist government of the Czech Republic much cares at this point that I bought one of the guns that was made for their police force.

Similarly, I'm not sure how much the people of West Germany were affected by my decision to purchase a 1986 Porsche instead of a 1986 Corvette.


For that matter, isn't buying a used anything kind of the same thing as buying an import? Either way, the current US manufacturers aren't getting your money.

I would never buy a new S&W revolver, for example, not when you can get a decent used one for hundreds less. And unlike other products, firearms generally don't wear out, so buying used is just about as good as buying new.

[SunTzuNephew]

For that matter, isn't buying a used anything kind of the same thing as buying an import? Either way, the current US manufacturers aren't getting your money.

I would never buy a new S&W revolver, for example, not when you can get a decent used one for hundreds less. And unlike other products, firearms generally don't wear out, so buying used is just about as good as buying new.

Not only that, but depending on when the revolver was made, they may well be far, far better built than the ones made today. Of course, they may also be worse built (if built in the late '80's/early 90's). Do some research and check serial number ranges.

[EricRichards]

The one handgun everyone should own is... a .22!
Choose a semi-auto or a revolver, that depends on your taste. Though the down side to a semi is the magazine or more exactly its need for one. Other than that, they are equal.
Now as to the pros and cons:
Cons-
Not a MANS pistol!
Can't shoot and cook your food at the same time-lack of muzzle blast.
Not a MANS pistol!
Can't brag that you shoot a MAGNUM!

Pros-
Cheap to shoot. A box of 550rds is the size of a 6 volt battery and cost less than 100rds of 9mm.
Not a MANS pistol!
Any one that can hold it can fire it.
You can shoot a 1000 rounds and not even feel it.
It can be used for HD/PD or for survival.

[calamaridog]

Can't brag that you shoot a MAGNUM!

Sure you can. 22 Magnum:)

[Scenic WonderRunner]

Since you are talking 22's.

This was on sale at a very fair price at my local Turner Guns store recently.

I'm considering getting it. I like it! I like the fact that's it's 90% of the weight of the P226.

If you choose a .22 plinker....find one that is close in size to the larger cal. hand gun you really want to own.

http://www.sigsauer.com/Products/ShowCatalogProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=30&productid=184

http://www.sigsauer.com/upFiles/catalog/product/M-Sport-detail-L.jpg


The hottest pistol offering from SIG SAUER® is the SIG SAUER Mosquito®. Featuring a polymer frame chambered in 22LR, the Mosquito is 90% the size of a P226® and the ideal choice for hours of shooting fun. The Mosquito features a wear-resistant polymer frame outfitted with an integrated accessory rail. The slide features adjustable sights, and along with the rugged blowback system, fixed barrel and superior ergonomic grip, the SIG SAUER Mosquito delivers traditional SIG SAUER accuracy. Additional safeties include an internal locking device and slide mounted ambidextrous safety.






.

[John E]

at Turners and the Turners in San Diego are anything like the one here in Pasadena, you can find that same pistol cheaper almost anywhere.

Unless they did some sort of big deal with their Sig/Sauer distributor they're consistently more expensive than other dealers are in the Los Angeles area.

Their employees aren't the smartest either but that's a whole nuther issue.

Just an opinion.

John E

[Scenic WonderRunner]

My post was about.

......The SIG SAUER Mosquito.


http://www.sigsauer.com/upFiles/catalog/product/M-Sport-detail-L.jpg






.

[robert]

I'd recommend doing some research on the Sig Mosquito before buying one. I don't know how they are now, but from everything I read when they came out they weren't worth the money. Hopefully they've got them sorted out by now, but there were lots of issues with them initially.

[BKCowGod]

there are a LOT of used mosquitoes on the market up here in the bay area. Every used gun shop has at least two or three of them. I played with one just because I could and it really reminded me (build quality-wise) of a really nice pellet gun.

On another note, my CZ shipped yesterday! :wings:

[DarinM]

My old S&W Model 19 .357 is starting to act its age a little bit, and I think it needs a visit to a gunsmith for some minor repairs.
So I bought a S&W Sigma .40 on Saturday. I'll be going to the range this weekend to try it out. I read quite a few reviews on various forums and couldn't find anything overwhelmingly negative about it - other than the trigger pull takes some getting used to.
Looking forward to seeing how your CZ works out, and I'll post up a review of the Sigma as well.

[BKCowGod]

My old S&W Model 19 .357 is starting to act its age a little bit, and I think it needs a visit to a gunsmith for some minor repairs.
So I bought a S&W Sigma .40 on Saturday. I'll be going to the range this weekend to try it out. I read quite a few reviews on various forums and couldn't find anything overwhelmingly negative about it - other than the trigger pull takes some getting used to.
Looking forward to seeing how your CZ works out, and I'll post up a review of the Sigma as well.

I read a lot about the Sigma too - I think it was summitgunbroker that had one well within my price range. Honestly, I don't recall why I discounted it except that I've always loved the idea of the CZ. I hear great things about the ergonomics on the Sigma.

[12valve]

I know many people dismiss Taurus pretty quickly, but I have to disagree. I purchased a Taurus PT24/7 pro DS a couple of months ago in .40 S&W (also comes in 9mm and .45. This gun is dead accurate and comfortable to hold as well. Plus you can't beat OD.

The best part is...it was only $380 on sale at Cabela's.:victory:

http://www.taurususa.com/images/imagesMain/247PLS-9B-18_2.jpg

[EricBirk]

If you are an inexperienced shooter the revolver, in my opinion, may be the way to go. I would consider the .357 magnum and am personally fond of the ruger DA revolvers (GP100 and SP101). The SP101 will conceal well.

A used Ruger Blackhawk SA revolver would probably be in your price range as well. My father carried one for years and was deadly with it. It does not conceal well.

The .357 will deliver more energy on target. With 180 grain loads from Buffalo Bore (for example), it may even persuade a bear or other large predator to stop eating you (if not, repeat as necessary). Two legged predators can be persuaded more effectively as well.
I believe most of the .357 revolvers will also chamber the .38 special cartridges for practice or reduced recoil if you feel that is relevant. Ammunition is precious these days, having a choice of two common calibers is a good thing.

At the end of the day, mindset and skill with the weapon and not the weapon itself will win the fight. Save your money and get training. Gunsite is my prefered venue but there are many others that provide excellent training. There are also many to be very wary of, ask around before you sign up.

Unsolicited advice: Wear the pistol. Left in a car or a dresser drawer it will probably make an interesting prize for whoever kills you. If I have to go and fetch a weapon, it will probably be a 12 gauge.

Remember:
All guns are loaded. It is not safe to assume otherwise, handle them accordingly.

Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.

Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.

Positively identify your target (and what's behind it).

Those 4 words of advice are the first 4 things that were drilled into my head as a kid before even touching one of my dads guns. Best advice ever given.

[Every Miles A Memory]

My personal favorite to carry is the Glock 19C, 'C' stands for Compact and my version is ported with a competition trigger, best shooting gun I've ever shot

If I was to buy another gun and this will probably be my next purchase, I'd buy the Smith & Wesson 357 Airlite (http://www.smithwessonhandguns.com/item/68408_Smith__Wesson_Hand_Guns_Pistols_SW_163073_MP 340_C-Trace.aspx) (I'm not sure why this link gives you that price, most shops have it for alot less)

This gun is small, a revolver so no worries about anything jamming it up, hammerless and light as a feather.

The .357 version also holds .38 rounds so shooting it at the range can be less expensive, but carrying it with the .357 rounds you have no worry about your attacker getting back up

I've shot this gun a bunch with both the .38 and the .357 and it's a really nice gun

[BKCowGod]

Yaaaay! Stopped by my FFL today and got to check out the CZ for the first time - looks waaaay better than the one in the J&G picture. I have 150rds otw from Cheaper than Dirt and my local surplus store has a holster with mag pouch for $4. I am a happy camper!

[BBsound]

My personal favorite to carry is the Glock 19C, 'C' stands for Compact

The C stands for compensator, the ports you mentioned.

The 19 and the 19C are the same size.

[dieck]

It's a personal choice and highly recommend you go rent guns at the range and shoot them. I initially wanted a glock after hearing so much good press about them. But after going to the range I found they didn't feel right in my hand and were akward for me to shoot. My fav to shoot were the sigs and the Kimber 1911s I ended up buying both and now own 7 handguns. However after several thousands of round through all of them I like the sigs the best. They are solid, simple, reliable, easy to shoot and among the very easiest to field strip and clean. I didn't want to like them but they are my most used and therefore my most accurate guns. I also am more likely to clean them regularly because it is a snap.

[Every Miles A Memory]

The C stands for compensator, the ports you mentioned.

The 19 and the 19C are the same size.

I'm confused then? Which isnt hard to do I should mention.

My buddy has a Glcok 19 and his is a full frame. I have a Glock 19C and mine is half the size of his

I was told by the salesman at the shop I bought it that the 'C' stood for Compact. Not compact like the Model 26

Ok, I just went to the Glock Site (http://www.glock.com/english/index_pistols.htm) and spent some time looking at the various models. I guess the Glock 17 is the 9mm fullframe, the 19C is the smaller 9mm which is Compensated, and the Glock 26 is the really small 9mm....Just incase anyone else is wondering

Sorry for the mis-information in my earlier post

[Every Miles A Memory]

For anyone thinking about a gun, read this ultimate Torture Test (http://www.theprepared.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=90) this guy did on his Glock

It's amazing the stuff and time this guy spent trying to ruin this gun. Everything from shooting it with another gun, burying it in a bucket with everything and anything he could think of and dropping it from a plane...LOL

It's a very funny read and makes me not feel so bad about not cleaning my Glock after my range time

[Fireman78]

Just picked up a Springfield XD M Series 9mm "3.8" . What a nice piece. Match barrel, tighter, 20 round capacity..... they took the allready great XD and made it better. http://sgcusa.com/images/supporting_images_large/Springfield_XDM_38_B.jpg

[DarinM]

I took my Sigma .40 to an indoor range yesterday and fired 100 rounds through it. Definitely is a different feeling gun from what I'm used to - most recently a S&W Model 19 .357.
Overall I was satisfied with how it shot. The trigger pull does take some getting used to and the time to reacquire the target seemed to take me longer than with the .357.
I took my proficiency for my Texas CHL with it today - another 50 rounds - 20 from 3 yds, 20 from 7 yds and 10 from 15 yds. I put all but 4 shots on the primary figure of the target, with probably 80% of them in about a 6 inch grouping at center mass.
Not great shooting, but for my second day of shooting the gun I can live with that. And it was good enough that I passed my proficiency.
The gun takes down very easily and is easy to clean. The magazine release is a bit awkward, but I am getting used to it. It fits my hand well and is very lightweight due to the polymer frame.
I think it's too big to be a good concealed carry weapon, but I'm not planning on carrying much. I mainly wanted the license to be able to carry concealed in my vehicle when I'm traveling and with the reciprocity agreements that Texas has with so many states, I'm going to be able to do that - assuming those states have similar laws.
I'll give the Smith and Wesson Sigma .40 one and 1/4 thumbs up. For the price $299 with either a $50 rebate or 2 free magazines (I chose the mags) - I don't think you can beat it.
Happy (and safe) shooting!

[Martinjmpr]

I mainly wanted the license to be able to carry concealed in my vehicle when I'm traveling and with the reciprocity agreements that Texas has with so many states, I'm going to be able to do that - assuming those states have similar laws.

That's an important point and one worth hammering home. People with CCW permits who plan to travel to other states need to be very aware of what reciprocity is and what it is not.

Reciprocity means the other state will grant you the privileges of CCW but only under the terms of their state, not the terms of the issuing state.

The reason that's important to know is because CCW permit laws vary widely by state. CO, for example, has a very lenient CCW law, probably one of the most liberal in the nation. A CO permit holder can carry concealed almost everywhere except a Federal building, an elementary/junior high/high school, or a state/local government building where they have metal detectors. There are no restrictions in CO against carrying in state parks, colleges/universities (though there are usually college/university policies against carrying weapons), government buildings without metal detectors, banks, bars, nightclubs, or restaurants.

However, many other states restrict carry in all government buildings, and quite a few states prohibit carry in bars. Some states prohibit carry in any establishment that sells alcohol of any kind - meaning that if the Denny's has a liquor license, you cannot carry there on your permit.

A CO CCW permit holder could get into a lot of trouble if he simply "assumed" that he had the same privileges in TX when carrying on his CO permit that he would have back home in CO.

Now, having said all that, just FYI, your TX CCW permit is not needed to carry in your vehicle in CO. In fact, many Western states permit you to carry a loaded, concealed weapon in your vehicle without any permit whatsoever. ;)

[DarinM]

Now, having said all that, just FYI, your TX CCW permit is not needed to carry in your vehicle in CO. In fact, many Western states permit you to carry a loaded, concealed weapon in your vehicle without any permit whatsoever. ;)

You can do so in Texas as well without a permit.

I was mainly concerned about the states that have more restrictive laws for non-permit holders. For example, I travel regularly through Oklahoma. It's illegal to carry a loaded, concealed weapon in your vehicle in Oklahoma unless you have a license. And it would just take some research to find out what each state requires before traveling.

[BKCowGod]

Carryconcealed (http://www.carryconcealed.net/legal/) has a pretty good state-by-state guide with reciprocity.

Handgunlaw.us (http://www.handgunlaw.us/) is a crap site, but the PDF download from the "rv/car carry" link seems pretty comprehensive.

[captblack]

Good thead to follow and a lot of good information. Personally, I have a MK III for just plain fun and a P95 for a little more power (but is still fun to shoot). Here in Georgia, it makes a good carry gun as well.

Still looking for the perfect .45 but for some reason, they want a lot of money for the one I think is perfect ... Colt 1911 just like Uncle Sam made me learn to shoot.

[KG6BWS]

Good thead to follow and a lot of good information. Personally, I have a MK III for just plain fun and a P95 for a little more power (but is still fun to shoot). Here in Georgia, it makes a good carry gun as well.

Still looking for the perfect .45 but for some reason, they want a lot of money for the one I think is perfect ... Colt 1911 just like Uncle Sam made me learn to shoot.

check out the Para Ordnance LDA. Its a fullsize 1911 frame, but double action only. The LDA stands for "Light Double Action. Doesnt have an exposed hammer, but it comes back when you pull the trigger. Even though its DA, the trigger is not even remotely heavy or stiff. Its just flat out AWESOME!!! Buddy of mine had a Colt 1911 Govnt Model, tried my Para, and ended up selling his Colt.

Its also a very reliable, and accurate, pistol. As long as I clean mine, when Im done shooting, or every 700 to 800 rounds, I dont have any problems. The only ammo that mine just flat DOES NOT like, is Wolf. Put Remington, Winchester, Federal, handloads...eats them all just fine. Put Wolf in it, and it wont make it halfway thru the first clip before it jams.

If you like the 1911, I HIGHLY recommend the PO LDA.