P38 Range Rover Discussion

[Scott Brady]

As many of you know, I am looking for a new vehicle. I am considering a few other options, but would like to focus this thread on the Range Rover. I really like the classic Rangies too, but they are pretty aged in 2007. So, I thought the experts could help me with a curiosity. The P38 Range Rover. This will principally be Stephanie's machine, with use as a light trail machine and customer transport. Of course, I will kit it out a bit too. :ylsmoke:

http://www.rockrover.com/images/tech1.jpg

Actually, this RockRover (http://www.rockrover.com/) is what got me thinking about the P38 at all when it was on display at the LRNR in Moab.

So this leads me to my questions:

What are the major issues with the P38?
I have not heard of significant reliability issues with the model, outside of the airbag system. Is this true?
Can the viscous transfer case be swapped out for a unit with CDL?

Any other thoughts? Particular years to avoid?

[Brian894x4]

Scott,

Are you looking to replace the Tacoma, or a second vehicle? Just curious. Sorry I can't offer anything on this particular model.

[Scott Brady]

Good question Brian, and I should clarify.

Tacoma: The Tacoma will be my primary adventure machine for the next 2.5 years, taking me all the way through the end of the South America trip.

Jeep: For Sale, and will be replaced by a cool motorcycle (still not sure which one yet; trying to learn from the gurus). I am not real motivated to sell the Jeep quite yet as I haven't figured out the replacement, and its still a little chilly in Prescott :)

Trooper: There is nothing wrong with the Trooper, but it is time to look for a replacement. For several reasons, but mostly for an interim project with wider appeal. I need a road trip, training, customer transport and Stephanie transport. She really like the Land Rovers, and I think they are fun machines too. So the Trooper is being replaced by the P38 or similar.

I have not decided on the P38, just want to research if it is a viable solution. I actually prefer the Classic RR more, but they will be high mileage (last made in 1995). We have owned a 2001 Discovery II and would like to try something different.

Once we determine if the P38 is a good fit, then I will start an new thread on comparing all of the models.

[Jonathan Hanson]

Scott, have you seen this page?:

http://www.rangerovers.net/newrremedies.htm

[Monkeyboy]

Have you talked with "Pugsly" ... Jon ... memory fails me.

He's had their 110 all over the place and has begun modifying their P38 as well.

I'll go search for some links and report back.

ed ... Aha, look at http://pugsly.bechange.com/range%20rover%20projects.htm for some info..
Also, just thought of Jeff Corwin http://www.jcrover4x4.com/ he's modified the air springs with bits from Arnott and the height sensors as well.



In general it seems that if you carry the LR testbook with you, you're just fine ;)

KAA

[david despain]

thats allan bates p-38 isnt it? i nicer truck i have never seen.
are u going to stay with the eas air bag stuff or ditch alll that and go coils? that's a major source of headache and expense. i too have been trying to convince myself i need a rangie and i waffle on whether it should be a rrc or p-38. i love the iconic style of the classic but i desire a newer vehicle with less rust. but there are so many more places and system to pour money into with a p-38. and the aftermarket is almost non-existant. but the stuff that is out there is pretty cool. and since its unlikely you need to go X-TREEEEEEME with it i would suspect you can source or build what ever it is you want for it. the prices are coming down on them almost to the point where i could afford one in a few years. one other good thing is you can get a 4.6 motor in these before it was available in the disco. not a really dificult swap from what i hear but if its availabble factory then u know it will work.

have u seen these
http://www.rangie.com/
http://www.rangerovers.net/

[flyingwil]

My brother-in-law has one.

In fact I helped him pick it out. It was previously owned by a Rover mechanic, and was in very good shape for what it was. Since then normal wear and tear has brought the mighty Rover down a notch in my book.

Here is a list of issues he has encountered this past year that contribute my thoughts:

Seems way under powered (seems to have issues with hills)
All plastics cracked or will break due to AZ heat (front grill, A/C condensation hoses, interior knobs and switches, horn, ect..)
Door handles broke
aft lift gas struts broke
Fuel tank hose cracked and broke


It has some great styling and load capabilities that may be hindered by the underpowered engine. With his rover being a street queen, I can not imagine the increase in failures if were used off-road.

I am sad to say that I recommend this vehicle to my brother-in-law as "good vehicle." I am sure that with the right resources you would be able to find an expedition worthy P38 but inspect it with a fine tooth comb. Especially watch the plastics and the rubber.

[Jonathan Hanson]

Scott, as you know I approach Land Rovers as a highly interested third party except in the case of the Series III I own.

I have to say that I recall reading and hearing more complaints about the P38 series Rangie than any other. Perhaps that should not dissuade you from buying, especially if sales prices reflect the perception, but it's certainly something to consider.

Personally, I would rather spend the money on a really pristine southwestern Range Rover Classic.

[Brian894x4]

Scott,

Any ideas what you plan to replace the Tacoma with in the future?

[Scott Brady]

Scott,

Any ideas what you plan to replace the Tacoma with in the future?

Hmmmm, great question :)

Something "bigger", but I am really not sure what that would be.

[upcruiser]

This will be an interesting thread to watch. I really dig the Classics myself and almost purchased one (close enough that my gf told me to put the cash back in my pocket and just think about it overnight after a test drive). I have read up a bit on some of the problem areas on those but have often wondered if the P38's are any better. There is one locally that I swear I see driving around half of the time with the rear airbags flat on it.

[Wanderlusty]

Hmmmm, great question :)

Something "bigger", but I am really not sure what that would be.

You certainly seem to have high praise for the new JK's, but not sure if that woudl count as 'bigger' though.

I am betting if they made the Gladiator with a diesel...in white....

[FortyMileDesert]

P38s are really cheap now because they are money pits to keep running.

If you are a good mechanic, have access to parts cheap and buy a second one as a parts donor - - Maybe.

[david despain]

My brother-in-law has one.
In fact I helped him pick it out. It was previously owned by a Rover mechanic, and was in very good shape for what it was. Since then normal wear and tear has brought the mighty Rover down a notch in my book.
Here is a list of issues he has encountered this past year that contribute my thoughts:

Seems way under powered (seems to have issues with hills)
All plastics cracked or will break due to AZ heat (front grill, A/C condensation hoses, interior knobs and switches, horn, ect..)
Door handles broke
aft lift gas struts broke
Fuel tank hose cracked and broke

It has some great styling and load capabilities that may be hindered by the underpowered engine. With his rover being a street queen, I can not imagine the increase in failures if were used off-road.
I am sad to say that I recommend this vehicle to my brother-in-law as "good vehicle." I am sure that with the right resources you would be able to find an expedition worthy P38 but inspect it with a fine tooth comb. Especially watch the plastics and the rubber.

oh Will you just dont feel the LR love. nothing wrong with that, but if you dont then you will never like a leaky, broke, slow, christmas tree dash, experiance. If that SHORT list of stuff that broke is all that is wrong with that rangie then i'd consider that to be a truck is excellent shape. :Mechanic: They have their problem areas for sure; i would sort out the EAS air suspension and go to coils the first time it droped to the frame in "limp home" mode. i would go over the engine and such with a fine tooth comb before purchase and then replace all the replaceables when i got it home.
but with the exception of maybe some variant of the iconic land crusier this :26_13_1: only belongs on the spare tire cover or painted on the quater pannel of a rover. oh the civility and noble land rover, nothing is as proper as the queens car at a polo match. and the tailgate on a range rover makes an excellent place to prepare the afternoon tea.
and i will have you know that only the finest english parts are falling off this truck. so sayeth the owner of a broke(CEL & three amigos) double ought disco that has factory running boards and never been in the dirt, but my wife did take it to starbucks on saturday!

[Scott Brady]

The Tacoma replacement wont be an SUV, but a larger "truck".

In the mean-time, I am looking for an SUV to replace the Trooper and the YJ Wrangler. Two schools of thought right now. Buy an older vehicle and have fun with it for a year or two and then but a new vehicle (I am really wanting diesel), or buy a new vehicle now. The replacement will need to have at least as good trail performance as the Trooper, which is no small feat.

While in Denver I am driving a 6-speed, 4-Door JK Rubicon. I REALLY am falling for it bad... :safari-rig:

[FourByLand]

For Steph???

The P38 gets my vote!!!

[Dmarchand]

I've always thought the P38 was a good truck. Has it's quirks, just like any other LR. Plenty of software now to overcome some of the troubleshooting. I think the best part about it is the tailgate. Nothing better than a flip down gate for preparing food, etc.

[FourByLand]

You know she really wants another Dll though...:elkgrin:

[Scott Brady]

You know she really wants another Dll though...:elkgrin:

Yes :D

I think another Rover would be fun to have, and could be Steph's truck for many years as she puts on minimal mileage. More research in a few weeks.

[Scenic WonderRunner]

I just stumbled on this LR website today so I thought I would share the link.

I know nothing about these. But these folks might be good ones to talk to. They seem to have some good idea's and have done lots of Project Land Rovers.

http://www.eastcoastrover.com/RangeRovers.html


They have a good solution for this problem........... (http://www.eastcoastrover.com/132.html)


***text from their website***

Speaking of rocks and roots... The main weak link for any Discovery or Range Rover off road is the rear mounted steering stabilizer and tie rod. The stabilizer and tie rod hang down as nearly the lowest points on the vehicle, so they are very easy to hit even when doing mild logging roads, let along hard core stuff. The image above shows the ECR ROX tie rod guard installed. It fully surrounds the Rover tie rod so that nothing can hurt it. The guard is so tough you can jack the vehicle up by it if you like. Our ECR ROX tie rod guard differs from the other mass produced units because we allow you the option of keeping your factory sway bar if you wish. You can see above that the factory sway bar is still in place on this 1995 LWB Range Rover. The other thing that makes or tie rod guards great is that we offer them for the later model air suspension cars as well as the earlier units.


http://www.eastcoastrover.com/132/13212.jpg



To eliminate steering stabilizer problems we relocate the stabilizer to the front, and above the axle. This keeps the stabilizer out of harms way, just like on the Defender. We also make a heavy duty drag link, shown above, that is ultra tough and will take a hit in cause you misjudge the height of the obstacle in front of you. Combine that with the upgraded steering stabilizer from Old Man Emu and you have a combination that will do what you need off road and is even ready for the larger tires you may plan to install. We've also added a front diff guard to this Range Rover LWB for those "just in case" moments where a rock might harm the differential cover.
As you can see above, the lowest thing hanging down now is the diff guard and the ECR ROX tie rod guard. That means this RR is ready to hit the trail, and if it needs to grind over a rock or stump, nothing will be harmed. If you hit a rock of stump with your stock set up you'll to out your wheels and you'll be looking for a ride home, or at the very least a long trail side repair.


http://www.eastcoastrover.com/132/13211.jpg

[Scenic WonderRunner]

........and LOOK!

OH MY GOSH!

A Land Rover 101.........!

Uber Kewlness!:ylsmoke:

Who Knew!


http://www.eastcoastrover.com/Project%20Scans%20Aug02/10445.jpg

[gjackson]

Eastcoast rovers does top notch work, and they know it. They do a lot of restorations and upgrades, all really good stuff. They quoted a built Defender 110 for our Africa trip at $110,000. Makes that JK Earthroamer seem like a good deal!!

cheers

[Jonathan Hanson]

Yep. Hundred-twenty-bucks-an-hour labor adds up quickly. But they do produce some stupendous work, and are helping keep NAS Land Rovers alive and running, often in much better nick than when they left the factory.

[stevenmd]

Hello everyone... stumbled onto this site today... great thread... P38's are OK but if you really want a rangie I'd go with a classic... cheaper and easier to keep running, more aftermarket parts available, and you can get a LWB (long wheel base) for when you shuttle customers around. Yes, the 3.9 and 4.2 that come in the rangie are waaaaaaaaaaaay underpowered. If you could, I would put the 4.6 power plant in there and regear to 4.10... you will have plenty of power then.

Of course... I'm partial to the disco but that's just me. For some good feedack on rangies check us out at www.lrrforums.com

Cool site,:punk03: love the expedition threads. I will definately post upcoming trail runs here!!! There is an upcoming Land Rover National Rally in August this year. I'll post a link in the right section.

[Bergger]

The Tacoma replacement wont be an SUV, but a larger "truck".

In the mean-time, I am looking for an SUV to replace the Trooper and the YJ Wrangler. Two schools of thought right now. Buy an older vehicle and have fun with it for a year or two and then but a new vehicle (I am really wanting diesel), or buy a new vehicle now. The replacement will need to have at least as good trail performance as the Trooper, which is no small feat.

While in Denver I am driving a 6-speed, 4-Door JK Rubicon. I REALLY am falling for it bad... :safari-rig:


My wife had a 2000 Trooper, great truck, just this past October I got her a 2006 Xterra OR Model with the 6 speed MT. She loves it, so do I. Extremely fast truck, very comfortable and while I have yet to take it off road from what I have read it is very capable with the rear locker. The interior is surprisingly roomy and well designed. We picked it up for 23K so price is not bad either. Just a thought. As far as the larger truck to replace the Tacomoa, I had the opportunity to check out the new Toyota Tundras at the National Western Stock Show the other day. Very nice indeed and yes, very large. I'm not sure if you want to go that big but you should definitely check it out.


5341

[SeaRubi]

Scott:

The transfer case cannot be swapped out for the gear driven LT230 unit found in Discovery and RRC. If you look, you'll notice that the diffs are on the wrong side - P38's are drivers side drop, and Disco I, II, RRC, Defender are all passenger side drop. WHY in the world they did this I do not know. It stinks, because the rover transfer case is something of an engineering marvel.

Lots of electronics. you can ditch the EAS for coils very easily. You can also ditch the ABS. What's hard to ditch is all the luxury and creature comforts. All that interior junk starts to go south and after a while, makes it feel like a junker when half of it isn't working. windows, windshield and mirror defrosters, power seat, dash functions, heater core - all this stuff is really complicated on the P38 and is the biggest culprit to their bad reputation.

Off-road I've been told they're a dream. Good size vehicle, and even with just the ETC and some sticky tires they'll do very well.

You definitely want the 4.6 motor. The transmissions are solid ZF units, similar to RRC and Discovery. With proper care they'll last a long time.

Honestly, I'd recommend getting an Discovery II over a P38 just to be able to get the better transfer case. If you dont' mind dropping a grand into having one rebuilt then its no big deal. The Borg-Warner case isn't up to hard wheeling, but for light-duty work they have a decent service life, and the same 3.2 low range as the other rover cases.

Aftermarket 4.10 gears will work fine as well, but you're stuck in terms of any other axle or CV upgrades in this department. They key here is small tires, and truetracks. If you keep the ETC working and up to snuff, this is a very impressive combination. A friend wheel's a DII pretty hard with TT's and the ETC, and I'm amazed at what he can get over with that thing.


fwiw.


edit: I forgot that you once owned a DII :D having been down that road, and recommending it over the P38 ... well, you can see where I stand on that issue ;)

as for getting a Discovery I or a RRC: I will not do this again, nor a defender, until I'm prepared to spend the time in a frame off restoration. Best off-road vehicle IMO bar none is the RRC. BUT! They are all getting very old, and worn out. It's not really a fault of the rover - with 150k ~ 200k and higher mileage, they're tired and need more than "maintenance".

[stevenmd]

You can get a ton of RRC's in great condition. If you go DII... you can only get the CDL in 1999, 2000, part of 2001, and 2004. 1999, 2000, and part of 2001 have it but it's not hooked up. In the RRC, 1987 and 1988 are the only years it came with CDL. But you can acquire a CDL transfer case pretty easily and swap it out in a RRC or DII that doesn't have it.

Yeah, offroad they are a friggin' dream but anything over a 32" tire and you will need to upgrade the axle components. Anything over a 2" lift and you are looking at several more upgrades to keep her steady.

And, yeah again, they are a dream offroad. They are awesome stock and even better locked up.:victory:

[Scott Brady]

Cool site,:punk03: love the expedition threads. I will definately post upcoming trail runs here!!! There is an upcoming Land Rover National Rally in August this year. I'll post a link in the right section.

Welcome! I will be at the LRNR :) Hope to see you thee

[Scott Brady]

Thanks for the advice Steve and SeaRubi!

I might get a 4 Door JK Rubicon for Steph and a D1 for me. Best of all worlds then :)

I would love to build a 5-speed D1 to camel specs, but have it white.

[stevenmd]

I would love to build a 5-speed D1 to camel specs, but have it white.
I remember seeing a 5 speed 1996 DI on LRX in Los Gatos... out by me... if you get ahold of the lady, I can check it out for you.

[DBS311]

Taco replacement.

Decent payload as well.

[DBS311]

If 4 doors isn't enough, you can get 6.

[jingram]

LOL... yeah Scott, you would be pimping it out for sure through the desert, like a great white whale swimming out of the mists...lol! :088:

[Scott Brady]

Ha, isnt that the truth :)

[datrupr]

Nah, there is not enough chrome on that one for Scott's liking.:p

[craig]

Scott,

At one point I asked an independent Land Rover mechanic what the worst Land Rover was (as in which did he see the most and that customers spent the most on). The P38 was the unamimous answer amongst all 5 techs in the room.

That said, I have another friend who runs an independent Land Rover shop and he loved it on and off road. Seeing Alan's is enough to tempt anyone as that truck has all of the class that your wife deserves, and enough capability to go just about anywhere she'll want to take it.

Craig

[Grim Reaper]

P38's have the shop and their mechanics making more then the sales dept and sales people according to my Rover mechanic buddy that works at the Atlanta dealer. He works about 10 hours a day 6 days a week. Figures he will have his house paid off in 2 more years at that rate.

I have two friends with them. One has an extended warranty that has more then paid for itself with the suspension failing 3 times in 2 years and repeated issues with the passenger side front window failing. They are actually talking about replacing the door now thinking that something isn't straight binding the window and burning up the motor and controls.

Major fail on the suspension is a fitting that if it were repairable alone would be $5. But it part of the hose or the bag so its $300 to fix to buy the assembly. The one buddy went to the coils said it was an afternoon swap. The extended warranty is running out on the other buddies and he is already set to replace and might do it before it fails so he can sell the parts on ebay to offset the price of the coils.

Both have had several electrical issues. One had some problems with the front axle. Not sure what that was about.

I love what they look like and when they are right they are a sweet ride but miserable to keep right. After owning Toyota's I would be really pissed to have to deal with a vehicle that is that temperamental.

[alia176]

Scott,

I just happen to come across this post so I'm a little late...

The suspension on the P38 is quite nice. The rear arms are composite (I think) so they actually help the suspension cycle quite well. The air suspension has it's quirks and coils would prolly be better and cheaper for the long haul. Arnott industries carry replacement air bags; a much better alternative than the LR oem bags. However, I hear a lot about the BECM which controls the engine and all sorts of other devices. I think having one of these as a spare is the ticket. This vehicle is very hungry electrically so the alternator gets abused regularly. I think it's a Magento Marrelli or something like that and very expensive to replace. But, it should be cheaper to have it rebuilt I'd venture to guess.

The BW T case is quite robust I'd imagine. My old RRC had a BW Tcase and I replaced the chain and bearings around 120k miles so I expect the same rule applies to a P38. The viscous coupling performed fine in Moab, CO, CA and many other places. My BW Tcase used ATF instead of gear oil. I'm not sure what the P38 uses in the Tcase.

Sneak over to the P38 forum on discoweb to get a better sense of the common issues.

Interior appointments are very nice as are the seating positions; that was one of my favorite attributes in my RRC.

Be sure to get the 4.6 HSE; it's got balls and then some!

As with any LRs, you better be a comfortable field mechanic if you want to venture far from the beaten path!

Cheers.