The SAR Dog flunkie needs a replacement/buddie

[alosix]

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_1eyn8Rhjfg4/S3g9plchN7I/AAAAAAAADx8/H77HqK5WjEY/DSC_0609.jpg

So, after a good 4 months of SAR dog training we've basically figured out that Kira (the pup in the pic) just doesn't care about 'people' enough to go find someone. She'd much rather just run about in a field than do any of the exercises.

On the plus side, she's like 200x better in obedience than she used to be and is overall a better dog because of it.

But, she needs a buddy and I need to find a replacement to continue with the dog training.

So, looking for some breed suggestions. Due to apt living I need to stay away from purebred GSDs (which would be my first choice).

What are you guys using? (and FWIW, the local CARDA group is keeping an eye out as well).


Thanks
Jason

[92se-r]

Belgian Malinois. The work drive on them is unmatched by any other breed IMO. Border Collies have nothing on them.

[91runner]

http://www.tarheelcanine.com/ uses malinois gsd and gsd malinois mixes for sar protection drug and explosive search.

[alosix]

I need to stay away from 'gaurd dog' dogs because of the silly apt rules. So, unfortunately the Malinois is out as well.

I've been looking @ Golden and Flat Coated Retrievers.

So far, this group of flat coats look very promising:

http://www.flywayfarm.com/jetxlayla.html

Should have a litter coming up in the summer.

Does anyone know any Flat Coat SAR dogs? I know there has been one or 2 in the area.

Thanks
Jason

[Dale]

Our trainers swear by English Shepards.

[Co-opski]

The resort uses Nova Scotia Duck Trolling Retrievers up here.

[ol' scott]

Giant Schnauzers might be a good fit for you. Our six month old girl Maddie is doing really well. Every one I've known has been friendly and rugged with a lot of drive. We live in an apartment too, people see the word Schnauzer and think small dog.

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r63/olscotty345/DSCN3939.jpg

[SunTzuNephew]

A friend of mine in California has/had Bernese Mountain Dogs for SAR...

But, it's not the breed so much as the temperament of the dog.

[alosix]

Ah, I'd love a Berner. First one I ever saw was sitting majestically at the top of a hill all by himself on a farm..

I do worry that they wouldn't like the heat of gilroy or the high sierra's in the summer time. I know Kira (the pup in the pic) is useless in the heat. All she wants to do is find a tree and lay in the shade. Not that I blame her.

Jason

[elmo_4_vt]

If you'd consider a smaller dog, the English Springer Spaniels (ESS) are very smart, obedient, long-lived, and have excellent drive and demeanor. They top out at around 45lbs and are made for field duty and small spaces. I used to use mine for flushing/hunting and she still minds better than almost any other dog I know.

Gratuitous puppy pic... She's much bigger now... :ylsmoke:

[02TahoeMD]

Dunno if it is an option, but I would consider moving if it means getting a GSD or a Malinois to do the SAR work for you. The breeds have lots to offer. Stupid, stupid people who ban dogs "just because". I hate nannyism no matter where it shows up.

In due seriousness though, have you thought about a Bouvier des Flandres (http://www.bouvier.org/)? They look like a poodle but have the drive and dedication of a GSD. I saw one work at a K9 seminar years ago. We teased the handler about his "poodle" but the laughing stopped on our behalf when the dog went to work. He was quite impressive.

[SunTzuNephew]

A good friend of mine is a SAR / Working dog trainer...she prefers malinois'.

As far as banning certain breeds, get a certificate from the vet saying it's a mix.... I had to do this for my last dog (which looked like a pure-bred GSD). Since he was a rescue, there was no way of telling for sure.

[john101477]

I am going to through something out you can all either laugh at or what ever. Toy Australian Shepherd. extremely smart and obedient as well as very fast learning capabilities. My male is 14 in tall and a real go getter. the only problem is the breed suffered alot from a breeder in oregon. fairly easy to tell her dog line from others though. If is looks identical to a full aussie (non fluff) your good to go. wide eyes or front rear height difference is a no go. My dog is amazing on trails (scent or blood). voice commands as well as my grandfathers grand champion cattle dog (border collie)

[alosix]

Dunno if it is an option, but I would consider moving if it means getting a GSD or a Malinois to do the SAR work for you. The breeds have lots to offer. Stupid, stupid people who ban dogs "just because". I hate nannyism no matter where it shows up.

In due seriousness though, have you thought about a Bouvier des Flandres (http://www.bouvier.org/)? They look like a poodle but have the drive and dedication of a GSD. I saw one work at a K9 seminar years ago. We teased the handler about his "poodle" but the laughing stopped on our behalf when the dog went to work. He was quite impressive.


It absolutely drives me nuts that there are breed specific rules around most of the apartments around here. I nearly didn't take this job because I was having a hard time finding a place I could live for a while with a GSD mix. I finally found one, they said on the phone (3200 miles away) that GSDs are fine. One guy asked if I could leave my dog with friends. ... Yeah.. I'm moving across the country leaving all of my friends and family behind and I'm going to leave my dog too? Yeah.. no thanks...


I fill out the paperwork, GSD on there for the dog. A few months later they update their 'dog rules' and GSDs are on the 'can't have list'.


My gut says its more their insurance carrier than them, but who knows. I do know that an untrained GSD in the wrong person's hands is an accident waiting to happen. There are 2 guys in our obedience classes that can barely control theirs. They are such a smart strong dog that I don't see much middle ground with them. They are either really good, or a real problem.

Stupid lazy people need stupid lazy dogs I think :)

We will be moving when the lease is up (Oct i think) and trying to find a house to rent, but its still tough trying to find someone that will take a dog.

And the more I talk to the breeder about this batch of flat coats... the more I want to see how one might work..

Our team is quite the mix of dogs.
1 older GSD
1 czech shepherd (really good calm dog)
1 aussie shepherd
2 boxers (watching a boxer do area search is interesting)
2 Golden Rets
1 Yellow lab
2-3 blood hounds.
2 younger male GSDs

[alosix]

Aussie is on my 'short list' BTW.. I just need to convince the GF to have an aussie around. She's got some unknown hatred of them :)

The dog needs to be a good pet to and pretty close to the 80lb size the current girl is.

Jason

[dirtyboots]

Mal mal mal mal mal mine mine mine mine mine mine mine. The absolutely hands down no questions asked most completely obssessed working dog there is. Having said that in it's pure form it is a good thing. Of course you didn't ask what anyone thought about what is the best working dog. For SAR tracking spaniels are hard to beat.

They are not giganticus, have alot of endurance, obey, and are very social. Unless you are going to drop some serious bread on for realsies pure breed, complete with all of the proper socialization performed by a propper breeder (they have imprinting behavoirs dialed in to the day now for developing pups, and if you are going to buy a pup for work and the breeder isn't doing it by day / or doesn't know how for your particular interest / vocation to tailor the imprint, check somewhere that does)

And, now that I've rambled from least realistic (mals) to semi realistic (purebred mega cash dog) lets cover mutts. First, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and say that the dog you have is not going to work. IF there is anything that will overpower your dogs desire to find a person while on a track (say a game odor, lets say, rabbit) you have a training issue, it is not a drive issue. The dog is simply rewarding itself and gaffing you off. It's what dogs do. I am sure you have some great experienced trainers, just throwing that out there, take it for what it's worth.

Okay, anyway, the dog won't work. check rescues, and pounds. Bloodhounds although huge and messy would surely suit your needs. I will not say who, but there are vendors for large agencies that sell mutts from the pound for good amounts of cash. How do they do what they do? Ball drive. Insano ball drive. If you can find a dog that has a high prey / ball drive, higher than food, you can pretty much "teach" them to do anything. They are not often but definitely out there waiting to be adopted.

If nothing else is agreeable just take your time looking, and learning. It is not a breed issue as much as it is finding the right dog to suit your needs. There are selection tests and opinions on what makes a good tracking / trailing dog out the wazoo. Look for a dog whos nose hits the deck when it gets outside, and will take a ball over food. From there you have the beginnings of something workable. Hope that helps, and above all have fun.

[Waytec]

A friend of the family that is working with the Ontario Provencal Police SAR group uses 2 Standard Poodles. She keeps them in sport cut. Poodles where actually bread as hunting dogs.

Another one is the Belgian Tervuren or Groenendael. My mother in law breads Groenendaels so my wife and I had one for some time. The apartment we where in said no shepherds (we had a sheep dog) so we keep it there.

FYI a Malinois is not a guard dog is it a herding dog. AKC and CKC have them in the herding group. Also if you get the dog out of Canada it will be registered as a Belgian Shepherd. The CKC does not break them up as separate breads they are sub breads of the Belgian Shepherd.

I don't agree with the hole no guard dog thing, I bet the little old ladies are lowed there Lhasa Apso's they are a guard dog, look hear under "A Look Back" http://www.akc.org/breeds/lhasa_apso/ . I have been bit more by these little terds at shows than any other breed out there.

My rant for the day Good luck with the hunt. I would look at the Poodles those.

[RVR2RSQ]

I work a Chessie as my SAR dog (trailing and HRD). He is a bit large (mutant 100lbs) and when I start training another for his eventual retirement I will likely go smaller. My wife would prefer I stick with this breed because he has been such a good family dog. Kids 2 ,6 & 9.

I also like the Heelers (ACD) they are a great size, easy to pick up (fences, and what not) and usually have a good drive.

Our team has the following

1 GSD
2 standard poodles
1 border collie
1 Giant schnauzer
3 labs
1 airdale
1 swissie
1 labradoodle
1 chessie

Brian

[alosix]

The new guy , Kona, flew up last week from TX:

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_1eyn8Rhjfg4/TGhEZJkAlWI/AAAAAAAAEao/5B6i3wCNrOw/downloadfile-5.jpeg

http://picasaweb.google.com/jpower2/Kona#

Gotta say.. I didn't realize just how much energy a 'high play drive' pup would have. He is currently quite the handful to keep track of.

Seems pretty bright and happy.

Off to puppy obedience and introducing to the SAR team shortly.

Jason