Do you feel the need to have a weapon when camping

[Expedition Key]

I hope this is the appropriate forum to discuss this. I did a search and found a lot of posts in the gun forum, but I'm not necessarily thinking of guns per se.

When I'm camping in the backcountry I sometimes wonder if I'm being naive for not having some sort of defense mechanism other than my fists or whatever crude object I may be able to scramble if awoken to some threat. I generally like to live my life free of fear but I also always like being prepared.
I've been researching guns, stun guns and knives recently and I'm curious what others are doing.

I know this is a touchy subject but I value all the input on other gear and usefulness of it, so thought I'd see what you guys are doing. I really never felt the need for any kind of weapon when I was by myself or with friends camping, but now that I have a family, protection comes to mind.

Feedback is much appreciated.

Thanks,

Kye

[modelbuilder]

Don 't see why it's touchy. If you don't like guns/weapons when camping no need to reply and tell us why you don't like them. With that said I carry a gun when I am camping.



.

[BIGdaddy]

12g shotgun on one side

my wife on the other...

I sleep like a baby.

:)

[jcbrandon]

Kye-

Good question.

My perspective: One always has a weapon of some sort available. You just need to look at everyday objects in a new light, Typical stuff one takes camping can make a pretty useful self-defense tool: Fire extinguishers, camping knives, fuel bottles, flashlights and a zillion other things can all be used as weapons.

A most important weapon is situational awareness. A mindset that makes it hard for a hostile intruder to surprise you. And a posture that makes it easy for you to defend yourself should the need arise.

With those things established, then you might decide that the available improvised weapons are not the best choices. That's when you start deciding to arm yourself with a tool that is specifically for self defense.

[Richie]

The only "weapon" I have on me while camping would be my machete. And I don't think that would do much against a 400lb bear or an idiot with a gun. I like secluded camping so to be honest with you I've always been worried about the bear.
With that in mind I have considered getting a shotgun. Better safe than sorry.

[barlowrs]

I grew up with the following rule imprented on me before I could even walk...

"Never go into the wild without some form of fire (flint, matches, lighter, etc), and a knife on you"

That being said, I ALWAYS have a knife on me, work, school, EVERYWHERE. When camping, depeding on where I am, and the local wildlife (including crazy humans), I will sometimes bring a handgun as well.

[Expedition Key]

Kye-

Good question.

My perspective: One always has a weapon of some sort available. You just need to look at everyday objects in a new light, Typical stuff one takes camping can make a pretty useful self-defense tool: Fire extinguishers, camping knives, fuel bottles, flashlights and a zillion other things can all be used as weapons.

A most important weapon is situational awareness. A mindset that makes it hard for a hostile intruder to surprise you. And a posture that makes it easy for you to defend yourself should the need arise.

With those things established, then you might decide that the available improvised weapons are not the best choices. That's when you start deciding to arm yourself with a tool that is specifically for self defense.

Thanks for the feedback, yeah, I'm leaning towards getting a handgun, either a .380 or a 9mm. I've had both as a young man as well as many other guns..22s, 38,32, 357, Uzi 9mm, AR-15.

I haven't owned a gun in years, and never felt the need to cary one until lately as I spend more and more time in the backcountry. I don't know if things have changed or I'm just more aware as being a parent.

Anyway thanks,
Kye

[Capt Sport]

12g shotgun

X2

I recommend you get a home defense style shotgun for this purpose. They're typically cut down versions, so they are easier to move around in cramped quarters like a camper/tent. Plus, you don't have to be as accurate as you do with a pistol when shooting, they're less likely to be pointed at something you don't want to shoot, and there's nothing like the sound of a pump shotgun being racked to get someone's attention. ;)

As far as Bears are concerned I wouldn't shoot any of them with a gun unless it's a last resort. All a shotgun/pistol is going to do is piss em off. Bear/Pepper spray is much more effective at getting them to leave your camp. That being said the few times I have had Bears in my camp they were only looking for food and ran off as soon as I yelled and shined a light on em.

[Hilldweller]

If there's a bear in camp, the first line of defense is the alarm remote on my keychain. If the honking horn doesn't scare it off, we have an air horn. Then bear spray. Then the 12 gauge.
I've only had one nuisance bear encounter while camping and it was enough.

[UK4X4]

I pack a weimy.......70lbs of lean muscle with a large set of teeth.

We don't get many visitors !

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g165/POshaughnessy/Diesel/Theresbirdsinthistreedad.jpg

[stu454]

....Plus, you don't have to be as accurate as you do with a pistol when shooting, they're less likely to be pointed at something you don't want to shoot,....

Sermon on:
Accuracy is not a given with a shotgun. You do still have to aim it to hope of getting a hit. It is easier to hit with than a handgun but 'spraying and praying' won't cut it.

I have been swept over a dozen times by shotguns. Most of the time it was in close quarters. You must always be aware of the muzzle.

Sermon off. ;)

[Jnich77]

I hope this is the appropriate forum to discuss this. I did a search and found a lot of posts in the gun forum, but I'm not necessarily thinking of guns per se.

When I'm camping in the backcountry I sometimes wonder if I'm being naive for not having some sort of defense mechanism other than my fists or whatever crude object I may be able to scramble if awoken to some threat. I generally like to live my life free of fear but I also always like being prepared.
I've been researching guns, stun guns and knives recently and I'm curious what others are doing.

I know this is a touchy subject but I value all the input on other gear and usefulness of it, so thought I'd see what you guys are doing. I really never felt the need for any kind of weapon when I was by myself or with friends camping, but now that I have a family, protection comes to mind.

Feedback is much appreciated.

Thanks,

Kye

I almost always have a mini-14 and 1911 when I go camping...both in stainless :coffeedrink:

[Corey]

Growing up camping with my parents a lot we used trailers to camp in.
My dad always had a handgun next to him.

I took a Taurus 9 mm with me when camping when my kids were small.

No longer have that, I now have a Colt AR15.
I will be taking it this year, but I would like to purchase a handgun again, a little easier to carry and have next to me in the roof top tent.

You never know what you might encounter when in the back country and away from civilization, and the most dangerous creatures out there are the two legged ones.

[Jnich77]

X2

I recommend you get a home defense style shotgun for this purpose. They're typically cut down versions, so they are easier to move around in cramped quarters like a camper/tent. Plus, you don't have to be as accurate as you do with a pistol when shooting, they're less likely to be pointed at something you don't want to shoot, and there's nothing like the sound of a pump shotgun being racked to get someone's attention. ;)

As far as Bears are concerned I wouldn't shoot any of them with a gun unless it's a last resort. All a shotgun/pistol is going to do is piss em off. Bear/Pepper spray is much more effective at getting them to leave your camp. That being said the few times I have had Bears in my camp they were only looking for food and ran off as soon as I yelled and shined a light on em.


1. You still have to aim a shot gun. I prefer a semi-auto rifle with collapsible stock.

2. A 12 ga with the right rounds will do a lot more than piss off a bear. Same goes for a pistol.

3. If you fire a round into the dirt...the bear will run. The disadvantage of pepper spray is you have to pay attention to wind direction, and run the risk of contaminating your camp site and making it very uncomfortable to hang out in.

[Sean VHA #60013]

I always bring some sort of Handgun and I usually have a home defense 12ga pump shotgun in tow :-)

[Street Wolf]

Always have a weapon. Camping or whatever else.

[SunTzuNephew]

I hope this is the appropriate forum to discuss this. I did a search and found a lot of posts in the gun forum, but I'm not necessarily thinking of guns per se.

When I'm camping in the backcountry I sometimes wonder if I'm being naive for not having some sort of defense mechanism other than my fists or whatever crude object I may be able to scramble if awoken to some threat. I generally like to live my life free of fear but I also always like being prepared.
I've been researching guns, stun guns and knives recently and I'm curious what others are doing.

I know this is a touchy subject but I value all the input on other gear and usefulness of it, so thought I'd see what you guys are doing. I really never felt the need for any kind of weapon when I was by myself or with friends camping, but now that I have a family, protection comes to mind.

Feedback is much appreciated.

Thanks,

Kye

I have one for the same reasons that I have auto insurance, a fire extinguisher, and a medical kit. Far better to have them and not need them then the opposite.

[SilverBullet]

I actually bought a 12g for camping with the family. In ou rTent Trailer, smells escape and attract animals, so I bought it to protect the family.

[BorntoVenture]

You never know what you might encounter when in the back country and away from civilization, and the most dangerous creatures out there are the two legged ones.

This is why I carry when camping. I always have the Glock 23 (.40 S&W) on me and my Hi-Point 9mm Carbine in the truck. Over the years I've only been involved in one outdoors incident that made me draw my firearm and I thank my stars I had it on me. No shots fired but it did end a very unstable situation with a group of people planning to rob a group of campers.

[BIGdaddy]

As far as the discussion about shotguns go...please don't pigeon-hole me with your thought about racking to scare someone.

thats about the stupidest thing one could do, mostly because you loose the element of surprise...

Also, as far as bears go, a quality brenneke slug or 2 will absolutely take care of a bear, including some of the larger breeds.

In terms of aiming, I don't know about you, but I'm pretty freakin' surgical with my shotgun. I practice monthly at the range, and shoot trap to get better at moving targets (charging animals, etc)

Not to say I won't miss, but I'm still going for a center mass double hit with a quick followup shot...just like I would a pistol

What can be said about a shotgun or any longarm is that it's easier to line up on the target for most people because of the longer sight radius (distance between front and rear sights.) if you're shaky due to adrenaline, it will effect your accuracy less with a longer gun.

just fyi.

[BIGdaddy]

Here's my current setup, though I'll probably go to a knoxx recoil-reducing stock soon, so that I can adjust the length of pull for my wife to be able to use it better.

http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb64/kodiak1232003/DSC07366.jpg

[vhram]

20 Years ago , My wife always questioned why I always took guns on my backcountry trips, until we ran into a group like Barnold did. Had the mini 14 . Amazing people know what that slide sounds like when you rack a round.I believe if I wasnt armed this would have turned out badly.12 to 1 is not good odds unarmed . Wife hasn't had a question about the guns since then.

[Maximus Ram]

Having a firearm is always good. the real question is are you mentally prepared to use it. Yes, most would be ok with taking down a 4 legged animal, but to be mentally prepared to take down a 2 legged one could pose a problem for some.

[Overdrive]

When I'm camping in the backcountry I sometimes wonder if I'm being naive for not having some sort of defense mechanism... I generally like to live my life free of fear but I also always like being prepared.

Being prepared allows you to live your life free of fear.

[Martinjmpr]

I have one for the same reasons that I have auto insurance, a fire extinguisher, and a medical kit. Far better to have them and not need them then the opposite.

Pretty much my attitude. In 25+ years of camping and outdoors-exploring I've never had to present, much less use, a gun. Never had any bad encounters or ran into any bad folks or hungry animals.

But you know what? In 25+ years I've never had a fire go out of control, either, and I still carry a fire extinguisher and a shovel. :elkgrin:

[JKDetonator]

I agree with Overdrive, being prepared is what its all about! My Father always went camping with a weapon, and he taught me. I always go camping with a weapon and I taught my children. My wife, kids, and I train with our weapons at the range often. Out of 5 children, 3 have concealed carry license with myself and wife. The other two just don't like them, and thats OK. However, I've noticed more than once when they have asked if I was armed, of course the answer is - ALWAYS! How can you go camping without a knife? One of the purposes of a forum like this is to discuss preparedness, whether that is an 4wd vehicle, your person, or your equipment. I try to keep all of the above in a state of preparedness just in case they are needed. Being a parent also changes your perspective and your primal protectiveness genes kick in overdrive. By protecting oneself you are capable of protecting your family. That being said, I fear the two legged animals much more than the four legged varieties; however, seldom does anyone in my presence know that I am armed and capable. I've lived in AK and had browns within rock throwing distance, I've never pointed a weapon at them. I've had black bears looking in my windows of the camper; never pointed a weapon at them. Common sense and the lack of fear allowed me to difuse the situation because I was armed and used other tactics first. God created all men; Samual Colt equalized all men. Sometimes a smile and quick tongue just aren't enough. Good luck with your decision, you are just begining to work on your preparedness.

[R_Lefebvre]

I go back and forth on this. I like to be prepared for things in general. But I think I'm more afraid of guns than other threats out in the wild. It seems to me, the things I'd need to do to have the gun safe and legal in Canada, also make it somewhat useless for defence. ie: fumbling with a trigger lock while a bear attacks, etc. Also, I do believe there are more accidental firearm deaths every year than bear deaths.

Interesting note:


According to Taylor Y. Cardall MD and Peter Rosen MD, in their article "Grizzly Bear Attack" published in the Journal of Emergency Medicine, there were 162 bear-inflicted injuries reported in the United States between 1900 and 1985. This constitutes approximately two reported bear-inflicted injuries per year. Likewise, Stephen Herrero, a Canadian biologist, reports that during the 1990s bears killed 29 people in the U.S. and Canada, or around three people a year, as compared to the 15 people killed every year by dogs. Multiple reports remark that one is more likely to be struck by lightning than to be attacked by a bear when outdoors; around 90 people are killed by lightning each year.

By contrast, the CDC reports over 20,000 accidental non-fatal gunshot wounds in the US in 2000 alone.

Do people who carry guns for defense, also walk around with lighting rods? ;)

I do carry a large knife, and will be getting some pepper spray. Also, as part of "being prepared" I chose to live in an area where I don't need to worry about crime so much.

[Pedro]

I go back and forth on this. I like to be prepared for things in general. But I think I'm more afraid of guns than other threats out in the wild. It seems to me, the things I'd need to do to have the gun safe and legal in Canada, also make it somewhat useless for defence. ie: fumbling with a trigger lock while a bear attacks, etc. Also, I do believe there are more accidental firearm deaths every year than bear deaths.

Interesting note:



By contrast, the CDC reports over 20,000 accidental non-fatal gunshot wounds in the US in 2000 alone.

Do people who carry guns for defense, also walk around with lighting rods? ;)

I do carry a large knife, and will be getting some pepper spray. Also, as part of "being prepared" I chose to live in an area where I don't need to worry about crime so much.
Stupid hurts and sometimes kills. that is all the posted statistic is. There are pluses and minuses to the gun laws in this country. But unfortunately the reckless and stupid make all of the gun owners look bad or irresponsible.

[XJINTX]

I carry and have my CHL. Interesting note is that at the class for CHL we had a woman that was a police officer but no loner associated. She said that she was taught that wasp spary worked better than pepper spray. Much more range and can be deadly or damageing. That is why self-defense people will not come out and recommend it.

Since then I always have a can in my camping gear bug-out bag. Heck, never know when I'm attacked by wasps ;)

[timh]

I can see how the area that one lives or grew up in could influence thier decision on this matter. Myself, I have always lived in Southern Arizona and have always been around guns. The only time I carry is in the backcountry. Living this close to the border I worry more about people than animals.

[Hilldweller]

Wasp spray is awesome. After my friend was stung about 30 times after an inadvertent interaction with a yellow jacket nest, I never camp in the warmer months without it.

[R_Lefebvre]

I carry and have my CHL. Interesting note is that at the class for CHL we had a woman that was a police officer but no loner associated. She said that she was taught that wasp spary worked better than pepper spray. Much more range and can be deadly or damageing. That is why self-defense people will not come out and recommend it.

Since then I always have a can in my camping gear bug-out bag. Heck, never know when I'm attacked by wasps ;)

Interesting... You saying wasp spray can be deadly to mammals?

[BIGdaddy]

Interesting... You saying wasp spray can be deadly to mammals?

I've gotten hit by a bit of spray while using it for its intended purpose...just a few parts per million were enough to make me dizzy, vomitty, and pretty much useless for about an hour.

I'm a lot more careful now...:elkgrin:

[Flounder]

Never. Never have. Never will. I grew up around guns as a kid in rural Kansas. As I matured, I found guns had little place in my life. Millions of people all over the world seem to survive just fine without guns, so I probably can as well. Never even thought of having a gun when I lived and guided in thick bear country in Alaska.

I appreciate why people like to own guns and feel safer with one on their hip, but for me it seems like one more bit of kit I'll never need and the potential for added complications are compounded. No one is at risk of being killed by my 20 year old pocket knife, storm lighter or fire extinquisher.

I also prefer the people I travel with to not carry. People crash cars, set stuff on fire, and generally make mistakes. I'd rather not be around when that mistake involves a gun.

[milo12]

According to Snopes.com wasp spray is the ticket.

http://www.snopes.com/crime/prevent/waspspray.asp

All the reasons they say not to use it are weak. It is too dangerous to mammals and is illegal in some areas.

[winkosmosis]

Get a can of bear spray. If it makes a bear blind, unable to smell, and immobilized by pain, what do you think it does to a human?

No need to kill or cause brain damage or whatever to anyone, including yourself, with wasp spray

[MossMan]

My question is: why wouldn't you carry a defense weapon?

[haven]

I've traveled and camped in areas around the world for almost 50 years.
I have never found myself in a situation where firearms might have helped
deter a threat.

[Hilldweller]

Get a can of bear spray. If it makes a bear ... unable to smell,...Oh, they still smell. In fact, they smell awful.

[SunTzuNephew]

I've traveled and camped in areas around the world for almost 50 years.
I have never found myself in a situation where firearms might have helped
deter a threat.

Here are four people (the first that popped up on google) that weren't as lucky:

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2009-10-28-cape-breton-hiker-death_N.htm

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=585983

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,321107,00.html

[762X39]

I usually have my 870 LEO shotgun in the truck because I hunt all the time but really, I think it is sad that anyone feels the need to be armed to survive in the woods.I know there are statistics (and damn lies) that my prove me wrong but really...:coffee:

[Rando]

I don't carry any sort of weapon, and likely never will. I do think the concept of being armed when going into the back country is a very American thing and is more of a cultural artifact than a logical decision (not that it is wrong, much of what we all do is this way). We spend a lot of time on this forum drooling over tremendously unsafe cars and describing ways to make our cars less safe (lifted, top heavy, crumple zone defeated etc etc.), then we talk about arming ourselves to address the freak possibility of a bear attack!

On the other hand, while I don't share it, I can see the romantic attraction to being armed when heading out into the wilds.

[SeaRubi]

A proper knife and training can be very effective for personal defense, against man or animal. Something to consider.

cheers,
-ike

[winkosmosis]

A proper knife and training can be very effective for personal defense, against man or animal. Something to consider.

cheers,
-ike

Not much a knife is gonna do against a bear or a marijuana grower with assault rifles

[R_Lefebvre]

Here are four people (the first that popped up on google) that weren't as lucky:

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2009-10-28-cape-breton-hiker-death_N.htm

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=585983

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,321107,00.html

I tried to search for news stories on all the millions of people who didn't die during their camping trips, but couldn't find any. :coffee:

http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=campers+didn%27t+die+during+trip

See, nothing.

I did find this however, which is an interesting read.

http://www.med.umich.edu/yourchild/topics/guns.htm

I am not interested in suicide deaths, and homicides as... it could be argued that they could occur with or without a gun. I'm more concerned with accidental deaths.


According to the CDC, the rate of firearm deaths among children under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. American children are 16 times more likely to be murdered with a gun, 11 times more likely to commit suicide with a gun, and nine times more likely to die in a firearm accident than children in these other countries


When researchers studied the 30,000 accidental gun deaths of Americans of all ages that occurred between 1979-1997, they found that preschoolers aged 0-4 were 17 times more likely to die from a gun accident in the 4 states with the most guns versus the 4 states with the least guns. Likewise, school kids aged 5-14 were over 13 times more at risk of accidental firearm death in the states with high gun ownership rates. The findings indicate that gun availability is associated with accidental death by shooting


This is a controversial subject. Many people feel safer when they have a gun at hand. However, the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP)* has reviewed the current medical research on the subject and concluded that if you have children, it is safer not to have a gun in your home


What if I've taught my kids not to touch a gun if they find one?
A number of studies, suggest that even kids who are trained not to touch guns can't resist, and that parents have unrealistic expectations about their kids' behavior around guns. That's why parents are encouraged to keep guns unloaded and locked separately from ammunition , and to ask about guns at the houses where their children play. Here are links to the full text or abstracts of the studies:


How can I keep my child safe from gun injury?
According to the American Academy of Pediatrics, the best way to keep your child or teen safe from gun injury or death, is to never have a gun in your home, especially not a handgun.

For those who know the dangers of guns, but still keep a gun in the home, each of the following four measures helps protect children and teens from accidental firearm injury and suicide [13]:

Keep the gun locked
Keep the gun unloaded
Store the ammunition locked
Store the ammunition in a separate place from the gun


And I've said this before... I'm not anit-gun. I am interested in them as a technological device. I want to get one, but mostly for TEOTWAWKI reasons. But as a home defense, or camping defense tool, I struggle to see how they would be useful if they are all locked up, as required to keep my kids safe.

I also just don't like to live my life under the shadow of a gun. "If they live their lives in such fear, why do they want to live so bad?"

30,000 accidental gun deaths in 18 years. What was the number of bear attacks again?

[timh]

Don 't see why it's touchy. If you don't like guns/weapons when camping no need to reply and tell us why you don't like them. With that said I carry a gun when I am camping.



.

This thread has gone in the direction we hoped it wouldn't!:(

[R_Lefebvre]

Yeah, I guess maybe to try and bring it back from the brink...

No, I generally don't feel the need to have a weapon. I do have a large knife, but it's more intended for cutting things that are already dead. ;)

I have thought about going old school... A walking stick with a removable cover revealing a spearhead.

[Mr. Leary]

I bring a firearm with me when I go out there. I bring it for warning and signaling purposes, defense if the need arises, and hunting. It is another tool in the bag. Better to have it and not need it then need it and not heve it. It rarely makes it out of the bag during trips. I bring different loads for different applications. .45LC for effect, .410 8.5 shot for warning / hunting, and .410 000 buck shot for hunting larger game / defense.

Tools are often not needed, but when the need arises, it always works better if you have the right tool for the job. When personal defense is needed, its good to have a tool in the bag that is well suited to the particular task, among other things.

You may never encounter hostile people out there. What if you do?

The people who are likely to hurt you are the ones that will likely be culled only by force or the threat of it. Criminals tend not to think about the consequences of their actions. Thats why they are criminals. Your chances are poor that you will be able to reason with them without assuring them that if they try to bring harm to you and yours that you will make them hurt for it.

Those who don't wish to hurt you have nothing to fear from a responsible and level headed person with a weapon, such as yourself. For some reason, people are scared of weapons. I fear the people behind them with malicious intent.

BTW. If you are completely confident in your fellow man, so be it. A hand gun is a last resort and a pretty poor one at that for defense against a bear or big cat. You are far better off staying alert, keeping a clean camp, and getting a couple cans of bear spray.

[BIGdaddy]

I tried to search for news stories on all the millions of people who didn't die during their camping trips, but couldn't find any. :coffee:

I did find this however, which is an interesting read.

http://www.med.umich.edu/yourchild/topics/guns.htm

I am not interested in suicide deaths, and homicides as... it could be argued that they could occur with or without a gun. I'm more concerned with accidental deaths.

And I've said this before... I'm not anit-gun. I am interested in them as a technological device. I want to get one, but mostly for TEOTWAWKI reasons. But as a home defense, or camping defense tool, I struggle to see how they would be useful if they are all locked up, as required to keep my kids safe.

I also just don't want to live my life under the shadow of a gun. "If they live their lives in such fear, why do they want to live so bad?"

30,000 accidental gun deaths in 18 years. What was the number of bear attacks again?

the camping trip comment cracked me up, Rob..hahahahaha!

Here's my setup:
my shotgun is locked at home right now. the only key is on my keychain sitting on my desk. When I get home I unlock it, still unloaded, with 6 rounds attached with a sidesaddle to the side of the action.

It sits above a mirror in plain view and my kids know that they can get it down and check it out if I'm around. Culled a lot of curiosity(they're all under age 5). At night it stays unlocked and then in the morning I re-lock it before I leave.

the action lock (not trigger lock) is attached to my keys until I put it back on my shotgun. I haven't forgot to re-lock in the many years I've kept this routine...though I did try to put my keys with the lock still on it in my pocket one sleepy morning. Nice metal bulge in my pocket, made me chuckle. :D

I guess there is a danger that my kid could:

-pull it down
-close the slide
-put a shell in
-rack the slide while pressing the slide release
-and then fire it...

...but I feel like I have a good handle on where my kids are when I'm in the house, and have quenched any curiosity they have with proper, frequent handling (not operation) with me present.

That said, my handguns ARE locked in a touchpad lockbox 24/7 fully loaded and ready to rock...too much like a toy, and too difficult to load with sleepy hands...Good compromise there...literally takes me 2 seconds to have a loaded handgun in my hand ready to go.

[91runner]

An interesting read is John lotts more guns less crime. But I digress, I do carry a pistol because if I ended up needing it to protect my wife and kids I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I didn't have every tool available.

[BIGdaddy]

Mr. leary. we both used "culled" in our posts. do we get a prize?

OD USP.45?

I'll take a XD-9, actually...:)

or maybe a Ruger blackhawk

or maybe a GP100 in .357...hmmm

one of each?

[Rando]

Could you live with yourself if you were hit by a drunk driver and your wife and kids were injured because your 91 4runner doesn't have side impact airbags?

Now before this gets taken the wrong way, I am not suggesting you shouldn't carry a gun for self defense, it is a personal choice, or that you should stop driving your 4runner. I just think it is odd how our fears and actual risks are not often that well correlated. It is more about a feeling of safety and control (which is very valuable in itself) than actual safety.


An interesting read is John lotts more guns less crime. But I digress, I do carry a pistol because if I ended up needing it to protect my wife and kids I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I didn't have every tool available.

[TACODOC]

When I'm camping in the backcountry I sometimes wonder if I'm being naive for not having some sort of defense mechanism other than my fists or whatever crude object I may be able to scramble if awoken to some threat. I generally like to live my life free of fear but I also always like being prepared.
I've been researching guns, stun guns and knives recently and I'm curious what others are doing.

I know this is a touchy subject but I value all the input on other gear and usefulness of it, so thought I'd see what you guys are doing. I really never felt the need for any kind of weapon when I was by myself or with friends camping, but now that I have a family, protection comes to mind.

Feedback is much appreciated.

Thanks,

Kye

I carry 99.97% of the time in the back country but one would never know I was armed.

I never show it nor speak of it around the campfire, but I know it is there and it gives great peace of mind especially when things go bump in the night ;)

[Mr. Leary]

Not much a knife is gonna do against a bear or a marijuana grower with assault rifles

Not sure what a pistol is gonna do against a grower with an assault rifle either except maybe keep their heads down long enough for you to get the heck out of there.


Mr. leary. we both used "culled" in our posts. do we get a prize?

OD USP.45?

I'll take a XP-9, actually...:)

or maybe a Ruger blackhawk

or maybe a GP100 in .357...hmmm

one of each?

Yummy!

[91runner]

we drive a 91 runner because its what we found that best fitted our needs for the price. I don't think anyone wants to drive a 3.slow haha :ylsmoke:

[SunTzuNephew]

Could you live with yourself if you were hit by a drunk driver and your wife and kids were injured because your 91 4runner doesn't have side impact airbags?

Now before this gets taken the wrong way, I am not suggesting you shouldn't carry a gun for self defense, it is a personal choice, or that you should stop driving your 4runner. I just think it is odd how our fears and actual risks are not often that well correlated. It is more about a feeling of safety and control (which is very valuable in itself) than actual safety.

Not really the right question, since one can't really add aftermarket airbags, afaik. How about driving a (say) 1962 CJ without seatbelts or a rollbar?

I know if my family was hurt driving such a vehicle, I'd feel responsible.

[Rando]

I am definitely not criticizing what you choose to drive, and you don't have to justify to me or anyone else :) I drove an 88 4runner for many years, and it was an even less safe car!


we drive a 91 runner because its what we found that best fitted our needs for the price. I don't think anyone wants to drive a 3.slow haha :ylsmoke:

[Rando]

It was an analogy, you can't add after market airbags, but you can choose to drive a vehicle with airbags.

The point being, the risks we take in the other aspects we discuss here, FAR exceed the risks from violence while camping in the woods, yet there is far more discussion about what sort of gun to carry than there is off trying to convince ARB to make an aftermarket airbag system :) This is not a criticism, just an observation.



Not really the right question, since one can't really add aftermarket airbags, afaik. How about driving a (say) 1962 CJ without seatbelts or a rollbar?

I know if my family was hurt driving such a vehicle, I'd feel responsible.

[R_Lefebvre]

Could you live with yourself if you were hit by a drunk driver and your wife and kids were injured because your 91 4runner doesn't have side impact airbags?


That's a VERY good point. I would think the odds of somebody needing ANY weapon for defence is very much lower than the odds of one being injured driving or riding in an older vehicle.

[R_Lefebvre]

It sits above a mirror in plain view and my kids know that they can get it down and check it out if I'm around. Culled a lot of curiosity(they're all under age 5). At night it stays unlocked and then in the morning I re-lock it before I leave.

How do you feel about this?

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/107/6/1247


Results. Twenty-nine groups of boys took part in the study. The mean age of participants was 9.8 years. Twenty-one of the groups discovered the handgun; 16 groups handled it. One or more members in 10 of the groups pulled the trigger. Approximately half of the 48 boys who found the gun thought that it was a toy or were unsure whether it was real. Parental estimates of their child's interest in guns did not predict actual behavior on finding the handgun. Boys who were believed to have a low interest in real guns were as likely to handle the handgun or pull the trigger as boys who were perceived to have a moderate or high interest in guns. More than 90% of the boys who handled the gun or pulled the trigger reported that they had previously received some sort of gun safety instruction.

[Zatara]

Never. Never have. Never will. I grew up around guns as a kid in rural Kansas. As I matured, I found guns had little place in my life. Millions of people all over the world seem to survive just fine without guns, so I probably can as well. Never even thought of having a gun when I lived and guided in thick bear country in Alaska.

I appreciate why people like to own guns and feel safer with one on their hip, but for me it seems like one more bit of kit I'll never need and the potential for added complications are compounded. No one is at risk of being killed by my 20 year old pocket knife, storm lighter or fire extinquisher.

I also prefer the people I travel with to not carry. People crash cars, set stuff on fire, and generally make mistakes. I'd rather not be around when that mistake involves a gun.
Do you ever ride as a passenger in someone elses vehicle ?

[BIGdaddy]

How do you feel about this?

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/107/6/1247

hmmm...interesting, and kind of scary at the same time.

As I said, I tend to agree with the study and therefore will only have handguns in the house that are locked in a quick-access lockbox, because I don't think its a matter of if, its a matter of "when" they will play with a handgun.

The shotgun, for me seems different, maybe because its unloaded, maybe because, its out of reach. Honestly, maybe I need to take more precautions with it,now that my kids are older.

good read!

[BIGdaddy]

It was an analogy, you can't add after market airbags, but you can choose to drive a vehicle with airbags.

The point being, the risks we take in the other aspects we discuss here, FAR exceed the risks from violence while camping in the woods, yet there is far more discussion about what sort of gun to carry than there is off trying to convince ARB to make an aftermarket airbag system :) This is not a criticism, just an observation.

Just Fyi, Rando, this is how I took it..just an analogy/observation.

Its a good comparison, and you make a good point.

[Zatara]

When discussions like this come up I am often reminded of this quote from Sigmund freud....
“A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity”

[R_Lefebvre]

hmmm...interesting, and kind of scary at the same time.

As I said, I tend to agree with the study and therefore will only have handguns in the house that are locked in a quick-access lockbox, because I don't think its a matter of if, its a matter of "when" they will play with a handgun.

The shotgun, for me seems different, maybe because its unloaded, maybe because, its out of reach. Honestly, maybe I need to take more precautions with it,now that my kids are older.

good read!

I do agree that a long gun is different. Just because of the size. I read something a few years ago about a comparison between ATV and Dirtbikes. Most parents think that ATV's are safer, because they have 4 wheels, etc. The reality is much different. ATV are statistically MUCH more dangerous than dirtbikes for kids. Why? Because a small child can climb on a full size ATV and drive it. And parents often let them. But children CANNOT ride a full-size dirtbike. They can only drive bikes made for them.

Same deal with a long gun. Less likely a child could even pick it up.

Still, I wouldn't leave a long gun unlocked with my family anywhere nearby. Which greatly reduces it's usefulness.

[R_Lefebvre]

When discussions like this come up I am often reminded of this quote from Sigmund freud....
“A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity”

I had to Google that one. Interesting.


A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity.

This is not a statement that appears in any translation of any of Freud's works. It is a paraphrase of a statement from the essay "Guns, Murders, and the Constitution" (February 1990) by Don B. Kates, Jr. where Kates summarizes his views of passages in Dreams in Folklore (1958) by Freud and David E. Oppenheim, while disputing statements by Emmanuel Tanay in "Neurotic Attachment to Guns" in a 1976 edition of The Fifty Minute Hour: A Collection of True Psychoanalytic Tales (1955) by Robert Mitchell Lindner:

"Dr. Tanay is perhaps unaware of — in any event, he does not cite — other passages more relevant to his argument. In these other passages Freud associates retarded sexual and emotional development not with gun ownership, but with fear and loathing of weapons. The probative importance that ought to be attached to the views of Freud is, of course, a matter of opinion. The point here is only that those views provide no support for the penis theory of gun ownership."

Due to misreading of this essay and its citations, this paraphrase of an opinion about Freud's ideas has been wrongly attributed to Freud himself, and specifically to his 10th Lecture "Symbolism in Dreams" in General Introduction to Psychoanalysis on some internet forum pages:

Yeah, apparently he never said that. But it is commonly used on the internet to ridicule. Does it speak to some people's propensity to believe anything to be true, no matter how ridiculous, if it supports their current views?

[BIGdaddy]

I do agree that a long gun is different. Just because of the size. I read something a few years ago about a comparison between ATV and Dirtbikes. Most parents think that ATV's are safer, because they have 4 wheels, etc. The reality is much different. ATV are statistically MUCH more dangerous than dirtbikes for kids. Why? Because a small child can climb on a full size ATV and drive it. And parents often let them. But children CANNOT ride a full-size dirtbike. They can only drive bikes made for them.

Same deal with a long gun. Less likely a child could even pick it up.

Still, I wouldn't leave a long gun unlocked with my family anywhere nearby. Which greatly reduces it's usefulness.

yup, I see where you're coming from, Rob. Why have something around that may as well be a baseball bat, with all the processes/steps required to bring it to bear?

Makes a handgun a pretty good choice, if you can be accurate with it, (which most people can)since there are lots of different products available to keep kids safe, while allowing it to be ready to use, quickly.

One thing I like, too, about handguns, like Dave mentioned, is that when you're in camp, you're not "the guy carrying around the shotgun" like some sort of michigan militia wannabe. You're fully legal carrying a gun on your hip,chest pack,fanny pack in most backcountry area's(becomes your home/house for the night, legally)


Also, one thing to consider, being a dad like me, is that likely you'll be carrying a child with you to safety, if the scenario is bad enough to require pulling a gun...that takes one hand/arm out of the picture as far as function goes.

With respect to gun use it complicates

-loading
-racking slide/closing cylinder (revolver)
-clearing jams
-manipulating weapon light/laser
-unloading
-application of safety

Something to consider. I'm good with my shotgun, but there's no way, other than the first shot, that I'd be able to manipulate my shotgun while holding a kid.

One thing handguns are good for too, with the advent of modern weaponlights is the ablity to have both your handgun and your
flashlight in one hand. Most are easily removable, too, so that
you can use the light without aiming the gun at a "non-threat"

Alright, back to work for me. :)

[R_Lefebvre]

Yeah, handguns are not an option to me. IF I bought a gun, it would like be an 870 as recommended by an LEO friend. In the house, it would be locked in a safe. In the truck, it would be locked in a safe. In both cases, it wouldn't be readily available in times of crisis. On a hike, am I really going to walk through the woods with a shotgun over my shoulder? Not likely.

Can you really handle a handgun, one handed, that would have any hope of stopping a bear? I fired a S&W 500 once, not something I'd want to try one-handed. The other was a Glock 10mm. Not sure I'd want to try that either.

I was accurate at 75 feet, 12 out of 13, taking my time. Am I going to be accurate against a running bear? With fear, etc. in my veins? Not likely. It won't take long for a bear to cover 75 feet.

So we're back to the shotgun.

I was recently talking to a friend of mine who's a hunter. He said you aren't likely to stop a bear with a shotgun anyway. They have too much "Will to live". Unless you have slugs loaded, and take out it's shoulder blade, it'll just keep coming, and now it's REALLY mad. He has guns, and hunts, and said if he was attacked by a bear, he'd rather have pepper spray.

[jcbrandon]

Just an observation:
For a topic that can get emotional, and a thread that could have easily spiraled into chaos, this has become a pretty good conversation.

Nice job, Expo-folk.

[Zatara]

I had to Google that one. Interesting.



Yeah, apparently he never said that. But it is commonly used on the internet to ridicule. Does it speak to some people's propensity to believe anything to be true, no matter how ridiculous, if it supports their current views?

I read several sites and tried to read snopes before posting but I can't get that site at work..
Where did your info come from ?
If it's not correct then I retract the statement.

[BIGdaddy]

Just an observation:
For a topic that can get emotional, and a thread that could have easily spiraled into chaos, this has become a pretty good conversation.

Nice job, Expo-folk.

Agreed, and Rob's a poopyhead.

[smacks Rob with a chain mail gauntlet and runs away]

Take that!!!

:D

[91runner]

It was an analogy, you can't add after market airbags, but you can choose to drive a vehicle with airbags.

The point being, the risks we take in the other aspects we discuss here, FAR exceed the risks from violence while camping in the woods, yet there is far more discussion about what sort of gun to carry than there is off trying to convince ARB to make an aftermarket airbag system :) This is not a criticism, just an observation.

I in no way felt criticized, and certainly understand the analogy. To be honest I do not feel the need to carry. Its just a choice I make, and it is a personal choice my brother and sister for example are uncomfortable around guns and would never carry. A gun is a tool, and you never know if you will need it and can make survival much easier in the back country. Now I think the odds of actually needing it are astronomically low and I hope I never need to use it, but its one more tool that's there if I need it.

[R_Lefebvre]

I read several sites and tried to read snopes before posting but I can't get that site at work..
Where did your info come from ?
If it's not correct then I retract the statement.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Sigmund_Freud

There's some interesting ones in there. Considering many pro-gun people in America like to site this supposed Freud quote, they should be aware of the man they are considering to be an authority.

"America is a mistake, admittedly a gigantic mistake, but a mistake nevertheless. "

This one is very interesting:

"Perhaps the last cultural fad one could still argue against was Karl Marx. But Freud — or Rawls? To argue against such persons is to grant them a premise they spend all of their effort disproving: that reason is involved in their theories. " - Ayn Rand

"Doctor Freud not only used cocaine himself, but he also prescribed it to his patients. And then he drew his generalizations. Cocaine is a strong sexual arouser. That's why everything Freud invented — all those oedipuses, sphinxes and sphincters — is relevant only to a mental dimension of a patient, whose brain is turned to fried-eggs by cocaine. In such a state, one really has only one problem left — what to do first, to [Edited by Rob] his mother or to do away with his father. Of course, until his cocaine runs out. And in those times, there were no problems with supplies. But so long as your daily dose is less than three grams, you don't have to fear either the Oedipus complex, nor other things discovered by Freud. "

- Victor Pelevin

[Klierslc]

I had to Google that one. Interesting.



Yeah, apparently he never said that. But it is commonly used on the internet to ridicule. Does it speak to some people's propensity to believe anything to be true, no matter how ridiculous, if it supports their current views?

Umm... He may not of "said" it but....

From your post...
"In these other passages Freud associates retarded sexual and emotional development not with gun ownership, but with fear and loathing of weapons."

Sounds like he said it to me....

I carry a gun all the time. Part of getting dressed is determining which holster and which gun to wear. I have a light, stainless pistol for back packing, and keep a side folder AK w/flashlight in camp.

I honestly hope I never have to use any of my guns in defense of myself and others. I spent some time in combat and wasn't a fan. I also refuse to become a sheep and walk through life relying on those agencies (police, sheriff, etc) that are under no obligation to protect me. (per the supreme court.) If they don't have to protect me, then it is really up to me to protect myself. Situational awareness goes a really really long way, but something unexpected can always happen to even the most careful folks.

To me a gun is just another tool--like a lug wrench, high lift, etc.

Why would you go somewhere without taking all the tools you might need? I am sure lots of folks on here have a high lift jack that has been used very little. It is a dangerous design, but training and responsible use make it a valuable tool. IMHO, there is no difference.

.02

[Flounder]

My question is: why wouldn't you carry a defense weapon?
Same reason I don't carry a banjo or a Snoopy Snow Cone Machine. I have no need for it. But, that's me. I respect anyone who needs to carry a gun to feel safe or a Snoopy Snow Cone Machine for that matter.

[BIGdaddy]

Same reason I don't carry a banjo or a Snoopy Snow Cone Machine. I have no need for it. But, that's me. I respect anyone who needs to carry a gun to feel safe or a Snoopy Snow Cone Machine for that matter.

I just laughed loudly in a quiet office.

:D

[Corey]

Ahhh, my next accessory to add to my camping gear.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41RqnrFi4OL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

[pan7eraboyca]

Im actually surprised at the number of those that carry a gun while camping. I never even thought of it (not that I could for the most part anyway). I spent years backpacking in Alberta and South West BC and have run into my share of bears and having a gun was never a thought. Protection from other people? I didnt know there was that many muggers out climbing mountains. lol.

Having a family now and doing mostly car camping a gun is still not a thought. Ive never felt remotely threatened, ever. Had bears strolling through our site in Waterton last year but thats what they do.

[DarinM]

Same reason I don't carry a banjo or a Snoopy Snow Cone Machine. I have no need for it. But, that's me. I respect anyone who needs to carry a gun to feel safe or a Snoopy Snow Cone Machine for that matter.

Looks at the banjo sitting by my desk here in my office and feels somehow judged harshly... :D Danged anti-banjo lobby...

[R_Lefebvre]

Umm... He may not of "said" it but....

From your post...
"In these other passages Freud associates retarded sexual and emotional development not with gun ownership, but with fear and loathing of weapons."

Sounds like he said it to me....

No. It sounds like somebody said he said it. He never said it.

"This is not a statement that appears in any translation of any of Freud's works."

What he did say: "Woe to you, my Princess, when I come... you shall see who is the stronger, a gentle girl who doesn't eat enough or a big wild man who has cocaine in his body. "

Yeah, I don't have much respect for anything Freud said.


I respect anyone who needs to carry a gun to feel safe

One of my best friends in an LEO in MI, and he's the one who introduced me to guns. When he first told me he carried everywhere he went, anytime WE were at an autocross or trackday, I was shocked. He took me to the range, and I got a little more comfortable. Most especially because of his skill, and when I saw how much better he was than everybody else. I believe in the idea that... If you draw a gun, now it's a gunfight. But I learned that he was better than just about anybody else we're likely to meet.

I've also gone shooting with some co-workers in Ohio.

However, if I saw somebody I didn't personally know in a campsite who was carrying, I would likely leave. Actually, I have already done that. While doing an east coast trip, we stopped at a campground, where there were a bunch of guys standing around a campfire with guns over their shoulders and drinking beer, so we left.

[Klierslc]

I very rarely open carry, and only in appropriate situations. For one, manners is about making others comfortable, for two, if a criminal knows I am armed, I will be the first one killed--probably shot in the back.


Also, what is the point of the stats that say that there are more gun accidents with kids in states that have more guns?

I could have told them that with no multimillion dollar study. Just like I can say with absolute certainty that there are more bear attacks in states that have more bears...

[Fireman78]

Honestly I feel a good dog is by far the best "weapon" anyone could have in the woods. (Yes...I do love guns and knifes and all things tactical and other dorky stuff like that). But a dog is great. :sombrero:

[R_Lefebvre]

I know the conclusion of the stats are obvious. The point of bringing it up is that the oft-sited reason for carrying a weapon is for protection. In particular, many people say they want to protect their family. The stats bring it into stark reality that having a gun in one's home greatly increases the risk of death by accidental gunshot.

In 1999, 3385 children were killed by guns. 489 in the age group 0-14. According to Wiki, 20.2% of the American population is in this age group, or 56.8 million kids. So the death rate by gun is 0.86 deaths per 100,000 children. The referenced study shows that gun deaths in other countries (with presumably lower gun ownership) is 12 times lower, so presumably 0.07 deaths per 100,000. 448 kids per year could be saved if gun ownership were reduced. On average, only 2-3 people per year (not just kids!) die from bear attacks. That's only about 0.0001/100,000. So you've increased the chance of accidental shooting death by 0.79/100,000, in order to reduce the odds of a bear attack by 0.0001? I know this doesn't get into the discussion about human attacks but I don't even know where to begin with those numbers. I guess I could just trot out the obvious crime rates in the US vs. other countries.

I don't protect my family by having a gun. I protect them by not having a gun.

This is very interesting... this discussion has actually swung me back the other way. I will probably just stick to bear spray. And it works on people too. ;)

http://www.adn.com/2008/04/20/381252/spray-proves-its-worth-in-bear.html

[Mr. Leary]

It was an analogy, you can't add after market airbags, but you can choose to drive a vehicle with airbags.

The point being, the risks we take in the other aspects we discuss here, FAR exceed the risks from violence while camping in the woods, yet there is far more discussion about what sort of gun to carry than there is off trying to convince ARB to make an aftermarket airbag system :) This is not a criticism, just an observation.

I agree, with a small caveat: One tries to protect his family as well as he can while experiencing life with them. You are far more likely to be injured on the road getting to camp, and we all know this to be true, but you cannot avoid the roads in today's world. You can only drive more carefully or less often. While you are relatively safer out in the woods, you still wish to take the precautions deemed necessary to protect your family from harm, and there is nothing worse than a helpless feeling.

One cannot easily mitigate the dangers of the roadway. One can easily procure and develop proficiency with a tool that can help keep one's family from harm when there is no one or nothing else keeping them safe. Safely store it as it is a dangerous tool, as one would take similar precautions with small children and a fillet knife.

We are talking about the difference between factors you have influence over and those you don't.


Agreed, and Rob's a poopyhead.

[smacks Rob with a chain mail gauntlet and runs away]

Take that!!!

:D

:xxrotflma

[Mr. Leary]

I know the conclusion of the stats are obvious. The point of bringing it up is that the oft-sited reason for carrying a weapon is for protection. In particular, many people say they want to protect their family. The stats bring it into stark reality that having a gun in one's home greatly increases the risk of death by accidental gunshot.

In 1999, 3385 children were killed by guns. 489 in the age group 0-14. According to Wiki, 20.2% of the American population is in this age group, or 56.8 million kids. So the death rate by gun is 0.86 deaths per 100,000 children. The referenced study shows that gun deaths in other countries (with presumably lower gun ownership) is 12 times lower, so presumably 0.07 deaths per 100,000. 448 kids per year could be saved if gun ownership were reduced. On average, only 2-3 people per year (not just kids!) die from bear attacks. That's only about 0.0001/100,000. So you've increased the chance of accidental shooting death by 0.79/100,000, in order to reduce the odds of a bear attack by 0.0001? I know this doesn't get into the discussion about human attacks but I don't even know where to begin with those numbers. I guess I could just trot out the obvious crime rates in the US vs. other countries.

I don't protect my family by having a gun. I protect them by not having a gun.

This is very interesting... this discussion has actually swung me back the other way. I will probably just stick to bear spray. And it works on people too. ;)

http://www.adn.com/2008/04/20/381252/spray-proves-its-worth-in-bear.html

I understand your argument. I also feel that responsible gun ownership entails protecting your family from itself. Trigger locks and unloaded if there are kids in the house. If you need a grab and go... there are biometric safes that open in a second or so... if you need to move faster than that... time to relocate.

As far as worries about children getting into the guns while out camping... don't see how they could mess with it on my person without me knowing about it.... but I have no children of my own, so I can get by woth considerably fewer precautions.

[JK-Mg1212]

This is a very interesting thread and is more or less the reason I stopped doing outdoor stuff with a friend of mine. I have been into hiking and kayaking for many years and have never carried a weapon. Tools yes (knife) but not a weapon. Now I should mention I have a number of them at home for target and a little hunting and have taken a number of classes so I feel I am somewhat comfortable around them.

I understand why someone might feel safer with a gun but I am not sure for me it is a good choice. I have had bears in the camp on a couple occasions and they are very food fixated and not so interested in the humans in my experience. As for the human kind I have never really been in a position to be concerned in the north woods. Yes I know there are exceptions but I am looking at the odds here.

My issue with my friend was when he bought a handgun, fired it twice on a range (no training) and indicated he was going to carry it on a sea kayaking trip with our group. The guy always was a bit nervous in the backcountry (I think he lays awake worried about bears, etc) and it worried me more that he would hear Rocky the Raccoon and take a shot in the middle of the night without situational awareness and shoot me in my tent. This seemed a much bigger risk to me.

I really don't have a problem with someone carrying if they have the training and experience but just picking up an 870 at Walmart or getting a hand gun and throwing it in the back of the truck in not a good idea in my opinion. If you are going to bring a gun at least make sure you have the training to handle it in a stressful situation. (steps off soap box)

[timh]

More with the gun/no gun arguments??? No one is going to change their mind one way or the other.

I will say however, in regards to all of the statistics, it comes down to education, supervision, and responsibility. It is completely safe to own a gun with children around if you use common sense. GUNS are not the problem, lazy, irresponsible people are the problem. Ever get annoyed when someone let's their kids run around a store yelling and screaming out of control? What do you think their household is like and what if they owned guns? My guess is that the lack of supervision applies at home as well in most cases. People have forgotten what it takes to be a parent, THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

[BIGdaddy]

This is a very interesting thread and is more or less the reason I stopped doing outdoor stuff with a friend of mine. I have been into hiking and kayaking for many years and have never carried a weapon. Tools yes (knife) but not a weapon. Now I should mention I have a number of them at home for target and a little hunting and have taken a number of classes so I feel I am somewhat comfortable around them.

I understand why someone might feel safer with a gun but I am not sure for me it is a good choice. I have had bears in the camp on a couple occasions and they are very food fixated and not so interested in the humans in my experience. As for the human kind I have never really been in a position to be concerned in the north woods. Yes I know there are exceptions but I am looking at the odds here.

My issue with my friend was when he bought a handgun, fired it twice on a range (no training) and indicated he was going to carry it on a sea kayaking trip with our group. The guy always was a bit nervous in the backcountry (I think he lays awake worried about bears, etc) and it worried me more that he would hear Rocky the Raccoon and take a shot in the middle of the night without situational awareness and shoot me in my tent. This seemed a much bigger risk to me.

I really don't have a problem with someone carrying if they have the training and experience but just picking up an 870 at Walmart or getting a hand gun and throwing it in the back of the truck in not a good idea in my opinion. If you are going to bring a gun at least make sure you have the training to handle it in a stressful situation. (steps off soap box)


all good points fur shur.

[kjp1969]

I know the conclusion of the stats are obvious. The point of bringing it up is that the oft-sited reason for carrying a weapon is for protection. In particular, many people say they want to protect their family. The stats bring it into stark reality that having a gun in one's home greatly increases the risk of death by accidental gunshot.

When you look at the very young curious ones, the numbers are much, much different.

http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2001/07/levittpoolsvsguns.php

Here's the intro: What's more dangerous: a swimming pool or a gun? When it comes to children, there is no comparison: a swimming pool is 100 times more deadly.

[Mr. Leary]

I really don't have a problem with someone carrying if they have the training and experience but just picking up an 870 at Walmart or getting a hand gun and throwing it in the back of the truck in not a good idea in my opinion. If you are going to bring a gun at least make sure you have the training to handle it in a stressful situation. (steps off soap box)

(steps onto soap box)

... pretty much why I am contemplating cancelling my lifetime membership to the NRA even after paying all that money. I am an advocate of the responsible gun owner. I am not pro gun. Traveling into the back country with a tool that you are not properly trained and practiced with adds an additional degree of danger for everyone around you. Protecting this type of ignorant gun ownership is bad for everyone, especially the people who have been convinced by someone with a political agenda that the bogeyman is out there and only a gun will stop him. As mentioned many times above, American children are paying the cost of this ignorance with their blood. Right here, right now, at least one per day if I'm not mistaken.

Be safe. The decision to hold and bear arms comes with a great responsability. If safety is not your primary concern, go get a dog and a baseball bat, they'll handle most of it.

(steps off soap box)

[The Adam Blaster]

Having a family now and doing mostly car camping a gun is still not a thought. Ive never felt remotely threatened, ever. Had bears strolling through our site in Waterton last year but thats what they do.

Waterton is beautiful, I've been there a couple of times, and seen the recently posted bear warnings. Strap on a little bell and they stay away from you because they know you are coming.

I'm never going to own a gun of any sort, having only one good hand prevents me from using 99% of the firearms out there properly, or safely. I usually have my little 4" long camping knife on my belt, but it's more for whittlin' than anything else. :D

[bobDog]

12g shotgun on one side

my wife on the other...

I sleep like a baby.

:) Yep nothing like the click klack of a pump shotgun while hearing a womens voice behind the door saying 'who is it?':sombrero:

[bobDog]

I hope this is the appropriate forum to discuss this. I did a search and found a lot of posts in the gun forum, but I'm not necessarily thinking of guns per se.

When I'm camping in the backcountry I sometimes wonder if I'm being naive for not having some sort of defense mechanism other than my fists or whatever crude object I may be able to scramble if awoken to some threat. I generally like to live my life free of fear but I also always like being prepared.
I've been researching guns, stun guns and knives recently and I'm curious what others are doing.

I know this is a touchy subject but I value all the input on other gear and usefulness of it, so thought I'd see what you guys are doing. I really never felt the need for any kind of weapon when I was by myself or with friends camping, but now that I have a family, protection comes to mind.

Feedback is much appreciated.

Thanks,

KyeHell I don't feel good using a public restroom w/o a handgun! Camping and fishing takes it way over the top! That's why God let Oregonians have gun permits isn't it?:victory::gunt:

[Klierslc]

I am following about protecting the family by not having a gun, but what about the roughly 2.5 milllion defensive uses of hand guns in a year in the United states? How do your numbers stack up against that?

Source: http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/noframedex.html

I am not going to run the math for you, but I'd wager my two newest guns that there is a greater chance of needing a gun defensively than having your kids shoot themselves.

The other facet to that problem has already been brought up--Training. I have 4 kids, 7 and under. I don't lock up my weapons, I keep the majority of them loaded, and my kids are comfortable around them. They are not forbidden fruit so to speak. If the kids want to touch them or handle them, I let them and use it as an opportunity to give a quick gun safety class. Whether at home or at anyone else's house, if the kids see a gun, they yell "there's a gun out" and go tell an adult. I conduct tests of this periodically and leave a double checked unloaded weapon out. Sometimes obviously, sometimes partially hidden. I then check to see if it has been disturbed after awhile if I don't hear the "gun out" alarm. So far, my kids have a perfect score. My loaded guns are kept without a round in the chamber and I choose specific firearms with actions that are nearly impossible for a yound child to cycle. While some of my weapons are within reach, the kids don't think anything about it. They have seen the pistols, they have touched them, they have seen me take them every place we go. To them, it is nearly as exciting as getting into mom's china.....

When other kids come over, I relocate things to more inaccessible locations.

Quick anecdote:

My Dad has roughly 60 guns. On my last count, (10 years ago or so) He had 45 or so loaded, staged in different parts of the house. With three boys in the house, numerous friends over, many parties, family holidays, 10 kids or so, over the course of 30 years, the closest thing he has had to an incident was a 2 year old getting a loaded bolt action 22 rifle out of a kitchen cabinet and toddling across the room with it. There was no round chambered--that is how he keeps his guns too. Several folks freaked out, but the most damage he could have done was dropped it on somebody. He had the rifle for about 4 seconds....

[Albin]

Like someone said: "Why wouldn't you carry a gun?"

I'll let you decide whether or not I carry, or my son, from the pic below. This was from our 2008 summer desert trip when my son was "only" 13; he's 15 now (and much bigger).

And anyone who uses (bogus) gun accident statistics on a vehicle forum as an excuse not to carry or have a gun is a hypocrite, pure and simple. There are at least +30K deaths due car accidents in this country every year; using the same logic, these simpletons shouldn't even have a car much less one for a hobby.

http://www.rocketcityrockcrawlers.com/pubpics/2008_Summer_Desert_Trip/Al_08_10/07-21-08-16-52-02_IMG_0846_Albin.JPG_s.jpg

[Klierslc]

For those who only carry a knife, do you lock up your knife at home? How many kids are killed or injured playing with knives each year?

[TACODOC]

(steps onto soap box)

... I am an advocate of the responsible gun owner. I am not pro gun. Traveling into the back country with a tool that you are not properly trained and practiced with adds an additional degree of danger for everyone around you. Protecting this type of ignorant gun ownership is bad for everyone, especially the people who have been convinced by someone with a political agenda that the bogeyman is out there and only a gun will stop him.
(steps off soap box)

Ahem... cough... cough...

I too am an advocate of responsibility and training. The more the better.

That being said, I am NOT an advocate of interpreting the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, or any Amendments. Even the ignorant and untrained have rights under our system, who are we to decide who is smart enough/trained enough? I'm no fan of nanny state nonsense no matter how it is camoflauged.

As for the boogeyman, you had better believe he is out there... you see it on the news every day.

We live in a CRAZY world where chance has always favored the prepared.

.02

[RR1]

Nah, I feel no need for a firearm in the back country, I get by on my rugged good looks.:ylsmoke:

[MoGas]

I don't necessarily consider it a need, per se.

I do, however, exercise the rights guaranteed me by the U.S. Constitution.




Dave

[Flounder]

For those who only carry a knife, do you lock up your knife at home? Heck, I hardly lock my home.

I agree with a previous poster that the question of this thread was to inquire as to who totes and who does not. I don't think he intended for this to be a debate to swing anyone from one side to the other, because that will never happen.

[Klierslc]

One other thing: The issue I have with stats (ie 1 in a million) is that there is a 100% chance of it happening to the poor bastard who is the "one"

It has to happen to somebody, may as well be prepared if it happens to be me....FWIW.

[R_Lefebvre]

Glad we can keep this a pretty good conversation so far.


I agree, with a small caveat: One tries to protect his family as well as he can while experiencing life with them. You are far more likely to be injured on the road getting to camp, and we all know this to be true, but you cannot avoid the roads in today's world. You can only drive more carefully or less often.

Or drive a safer car. Side impact airbags reduce the chance of death in side impacts by 50%. Electronic Stability Control reduces the chances of a single vehicle collision by... I think it's 30% or something.


As far as worries about children getting into the guns while out camping... don't see how they could mess with it on my person without me knowing about it.... but I have no children of my own, so I can get by woth considerably fewer precautions.

I don't know that much about guns. I do know my buddie's Glock had no absolute safeties. He showed me all the features such that it could never fire unless the trigger was actually pulled, but if you pulled the trigger, it always fired. I was really surprised by that. The ease of a possible accident cause by kids messing around is scary, even if the gun is on you.


My issue with my friend was when he bought a handgun, fired it twice on a range (no training) and indicated he was going to carry it on a sea kayaking trip with our group. The guy always was a bit nervous in the backcountry (I think he lays awake worried about bears, etc) and it worried me more that he would hear Rocky the Raccoon and take a shot in the middle of the night without situational awareness and shoot me in my tent. This seemed a much bigger risk to me.

I would be very concerned too, and probably would also avoid this person. I was only comfortable with my buddy because he showed me his skills. He wasn't just an LEO, but a rangemaster. I was surprised that after about 2 hours, he said I was better than many officers.


More with the gun/no gun arguments??? No one is going to change their mind one way or the other.


Actually, I waffle back and forth on this, was planning on getting one this year. But now I'm doubting it again.


Here's the intro: What's more dangerous: a swimming pool or a gun? When it comes to children, there is no comparison: a swimming pool is 100 times more deadly.

I don't doubt it. I don't have a pool. My son takes swimming lessons.


I am following about protecting the family by not having a gun, but what about the roughly 2.5 milllion defensive uses of hand guns in a year in the United states? How do your numbers stack up against that?

I never understand that argument. How can one possibly argue the case of defensive gun ownership, when so many other industrialized countries with more gun control have so much lower crime rates? Are we instead defending ourselves with our SnoCone Machines?


I am not going to run the math for you, but I'd wager my two newest guns that there is a greater chance of needing a gun defensively than having your kids shoot themselves.

It would be almost impossible to argue this. For every instance where you may feel you used a gun defensively, another person may have simply turned and walked away. Again, I get back to root crime statistics.

[Fireman78]

I bet he wished he had a gun when he was camping...

[john101477]

I carry.

[JK-Mg1212]

I bet he wished he had a gun when he was camping...

Ok - maybe I might change my mind now! :Wow1:

Funny thing is I have a tee shirt that says "Paddle faster I hear banjos!" Didn't Burt use a Bow? I haven't seen that movie in years.

[SunTzuNephew]

How do you feel about this?

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/107/6/1247


By all means, firearms should be kept out of the hands of young children.

I also don't like toy guns - water pistols and the like. Some of them are quite realistic (I actually carried one as my 'sidearm' during National Guard annual training one year - rather than risk losing it) and asking an 8 year old kid to discriminate between real and fake is unreasonable (but then, thats the kind of nonsense we've come to expect from Dr. Kellerman). Imagine, locking up a couple of kids in a room with drawers, with who knows what other stimulation for 15 minutes and guess what will happen? What would happen in a room with a TV or playstation, books, toys, magazines? Or, if the kids were alone? But, Dr. Kellerman is known for stacking the deck.

On the other hand, 'safely' locking up firearms can result in tragedy: Google Jessica Carpenter and Merced - a 14 year old girl that had been trained to safely handle firearms. She was responsible for her siblings while the parents were away, and the family firearms were legally, and safely locked up.

A pitchfork-wielding mutant broke in after cutting the phone lines, and proceeded to start stabbing the kids in their beds. Jessica tried to call 9-1-1, the statist clown's answer for this situation, but the lines were cut. She tried to get to the families guns, but they were locked up in accordance with California's laws. She ran next door and asked the neighbor not to call 9-1-1 (since her siblings were ALREADY being killed), she asked that the neighbor get HIS gun and kill the guy.

After all, when you have only seconds to live, dial 9-1-1: The police are only MINUTES away.

William and Ashley Carpenter were dead. Anna was wounded, but survived.

The State of California put Mr. Carpenter into an untenable situation. He could leave the tools available for his qualified family members to defend themselves and each other....or he could go to jail. Thanks to the California legislators desire to prevent people from defending themselves.

I wonder how Mr. Carpenter feels about his 'lawful' choice today?

[Klierslc]

Glad we can keep this a pretty good conversation so far.



I never understand that argument. How can one possibly argue the case of defensive gun ownership, when so many other industrialized countries with more gun control have so much lower crime rates? Are we instead defending ourselves with our SnoCone Machines?

It would be almost impossible to argue this. For every instance where you may feel you used a gun defensively, another person may have simply turned and walked away. Again, I get back to root crime statistics.


I agree, a good discussion.

Part of being a responsible gun owner and CHL holder is the responsibility to de-escalate a situation if possible. Using deadly force is a last resort.

Crime rates in many of the "unarmed" countries are quite a bit higher than the US....http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_percap-crime-total-crimes-per-capita

I think we are treading on the political side here. I am not trying to talk policy, I am talking about an individual decision. As stated above, Regardless of how low your crime rates, crime does happen. You have to make a decision. If it happens to you and yours, will you be equipped as well as possible to neutralize a threat, or will you stand by bleating like a sheep, powerless to protect your loved ones?

I am not sensationalizing things here. This happens to people more often than it should. Again, it has to happen to somebody....

[SunTzuNephew]

Yeah, handguns are not an option to me. IF I bought a gun, it would like be an 870 as recommended by an LEO friend. In the house, it would be locked in a safe. In the truck, it would be locked in a safe. In both cases, it wouldn't be readily available in times of crisis. On a hike, am I really going to walk through the woods with a shotgun over my shoulder? Not likely.

Can you really handle a handgun, one handed, that would have any hope of stopping a bear? I fired a S&W 500 once, not something I'd want to try one-handed. The other was a Glock 10mm. Not sure I'd want to try that either.

I was accurate at 75 feet, 12 out of 13, taking my time. Am I going to be accurate against a running bear? With fear, etc. in my veins? Not likely. It won't take long for a bear to cover 75 feet.

So we're back to the shotgun.

I was recently talking to a friend of mine who's a hunter. He said you aren't likely to stop a bear with a shotgun anyway. They have too much "Will to live". Unless you have slugs loaded, and take out it's shoulder blade, it'll just keep coming, and now it's REALLY mad. He has guns, and hunts, and said if he was attacked by a bear, he'd rather have pepper spray.

If you train to stop bears with a handgun, you can stop bears with a handgun. I used to carry (and practice every 2 weeks) with a Glock 20 in 10mm... I even took it to shooting schools to use. I could clear my holster, engage 3 different targets with 3 rounds each (and reloading) while moving and performing a threat analysis on which of the 3 targets was the greatest immediate threat, in under 4 seconds.

These days I carry a .45ACP Glock 30 (usually). The ammo is WAY cheaper, and adequate for defense against 2-legged mutants; when I'm some place with 4-legged violent critters I carry something considerably more powerful than a handgun. Handguns are useful only to fight to your long guns, as the saying goes and if I plan on attending a gunfight I either dress for it (with a long gun) or go elsewhere (more likely).

Like any tool, practice is good.

[SunTzuNephew]

I know the conclusion of the stats are obvious. The point of bringing it up is that the oft-sited reason for carrying a weapon is for protection. In particular, many people say they want to protect their family. The stats bring it into stark reality that having a gun in one's home greatly increases the risk of death by accidental gunshot.

In 1999, 3385 children were killed by guns. 489 in the age group 0-14. According to Wiki, 20.2% of the American population is in this age group, or 56.8 million kids. So the death rate by gun is 0.86 deaths per 100,000 children. The referenced study shows that gun deaths in other countries (with presumably lower gun ownership) is 12 times lower, so presumably 0.07 deaths per 100,000. 448 kids per year could be saved if gun ownership were reduced. On average, only 2-3 people per year (not just kids!) die from bear attacks. That's only about 0.0001/100,000. So you've increased the chance of accidental shooting death by 0.79/100,000, in order to reduce the odds of a bear attack by 0.0001? I know this doesn't get into the discussion about human attacks but I don't even know where to begin with those numbers. I guess I could just trot out the obvious crime rates in the US vs. other countries.

I don't protect my family by having a gun. I protect them by not having a gun.

This is very interesting... this discussion has actually swung me back the other way. I will probably just stick to bear spray. And it works on people too. ;)

http://www.adn.com/2008/04/20/381252/spray-proves-its-worth-in-bear.html

Yeah, thats the first bad study that Kellerman did. He stacked the deck there too - comparing slums in Seattle (poor, criminal elements, lack of education) with very nice neighborhoods in Vancouver.

He eventually had to 'adjust' his data, at first he made some claim about 30-40 times greater.

Thats why Kellerman isn't particularly credible.

Ten Myths of Gun Control (http://www.duke.edu/%7Egnsmith/articles/myths.htm)

[modelbuilder]

I love guns so much I think we should arm every newborn infant.



.

[SunTzuNephew]

When you look at the very young curious ones, the numbers are much, much different.

http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/2001/07/levittpoolsvsguns.php

Here's the intro: What's more dangerous: a swimming pool or a gun? When it comes to children, there is no comparison: a swimming pool is 100 times more deadly.


So are 5 gallon buckets. More little kids drown in them then are killed by firearms.

[kjp1969]

I don't know that much about guns. I do know my buddie's Glock had no absolute safeties. He showed me all the features such that it could never fire unless the trigger was actually pulled, but if you pulled the trigger, it always fired. I was really surprised by that. The ease of a possible accident cause by kids messing around is scary, even if the gun is on you.


You'll never find a gun that has an "absolute safety," whatever that is. I happen to like Glocks and revolvers because there is only one rule: Trigger = bang, No Trigger = no bang.

If you're going to own a gun you have to embrace the fact that you are the only safety that matters. If there are "kids messing around," with your guns, you've screwed something up big time.

[Lost Canadian]

I never carry a weapon, well perhaps a knife but defence is not why I carry it. I've never felt fearful without a weapon and I am totally comfortable being out there by myself, or with others, without weapons. Personally I have more faith in my ability to use the gray matter between my ears than I do in my ability to wield a weapon effectively so I don't find them to be well adapted to me. I don't object to responsible individuals having weapons and I am totally comfortable around those who respect them, but I fully admit to being somewhat skittish around the Rambo/John Wayne types who would put more faith in their weapons as a means of defence then they have in their own cognitive capacities to facilitate an outcome without violence.

[SunTzuNephew]

Waterton is beautiful, I've been there a couple of times, and seen the recently posted bear warnings. Strap on a little bell and they stay away from you because they know you are coming.

I'm never going to own a gun of any sort, having only one good hand prevents me from using 99% of the firearms out there properly, or safely. I usually have my little 4" long camping knife on my belt, but it's more for whittlin' than anything else. :D

Don't go camping in Churchill, then :)


"Most people have a shotgun with them when they go out because you just never know," Ms. Wokes said. "It's just a fact of life here. Most people don't lock their doors because you never know when someone might need a place to run into." (http://www.ctvolympics.ca/torch/news/newsid=19252.html)

[kjp1969]

I never carry a weapon, well perhaps a knife but defence is not why I carry it. I've never felt fearful without a weapon and I am totally comfortable being out there by myself, or with others, without weapons. Personally I have more faith in my ability to use the gray matter between my ears than I do in my ability to wield a weapon effectively so I don't find them to be well adapted to me. I don't object to responsible individuals having weapons and I am totally comfortable around those who respect them, but I fully admit to being somewhat skittish around the Rambo/John Wayne types who would put more faith in their weapons as a means of defence then they have in their own cognitive capacities to facilitate an outcome without violence.

Very well put, sir.

[bobDog]

I never carry a weapon, well perhaps a knife but defence is not why I carry it. I've never felt fearful without a weapon and I am totally comfortable being out there by myself, or with others, without weapons. Personally I have more faith in my ability to use the gray matter between my ears than I do in my ability to wield a weapon effectively so I don't find them to be well adapted to me. I don't object to responsible individuals having weapons and I am totally comfortable around those who respect them, but I fully admit to being somewhat skittish around the Rambo/John Wayne types who would put more faith in their weapons as a means of defence then they have in their own cognitive capacities to facilitate an outcome without violence.That gray matter is usually what the crazies aim for!:sombrero:

[Root Moose]

I never carry a weapon, well perhaps a knife but defence is not why I carry it. I've never felt fearful without a weapon and I am totally comfortable being out there by myself, or with others, without weapons. Personally I have more faith in my ability to use the gray matter between my ears than I do in my ability to wield a weapon effectively so I don't find them to be well adapted to me. I don't object to responsible individuals having weapons and I am totally comfortable around those who respect them, but I fully admit to being somewhat skittish around the Rambo/John Wayne types who would put more faith in their weapons as a means of defence then they have in their own cognitive capacities to facilitate an outcome without violence.

The other reality is that we likely have a lot less scared white guys with guns running around in the woods so there is less need for them up here.

I carry a gun when I intend to kill something. That's pretty much it.

[pint]

I've never been a gun owner until a couple years ago. When in the back country of CO I'm always weary of bears, mountain lions, etc. However, as has been mentioned, it's the 2 legged kind that usually cause the problems. 3 or 4 years ago my wife, 3 kids and I were primitive camping in the middle of nowhere...6-7 miles from anyone. About 11:30 at night after the kids were in bed this Jeep with monster tires, about 8 bright lights and tunes cranked comes flying up the trail towards camp. My wife and I were enjoying the peace and quiet, the stars and a nice fire. The Jeep rolls into our camp and out jump these 2 f'ing hillbillies just drunk *** h#ll. They start giving us a hard time, asking us what we were doing out here all alone, circling around us with beers in hand telling my wife she had a nice @ss, etc. I had no real weapon...a shovel, an axe, but no real weapon. I felt helpless and really thought they were going to do something stupid that I might not be able to prevent. My kids woke up due to the noise and one guy told them to shut up. I noticed one of them had a large Rambo knife on his belt and the other had a holster that looked like a pistol However, it was dark and I wasn't asking questions. After about 10 minutes another truck was coming in the distance. They quickly jumped in their rig and took off never to be seen again. I didn't sleep a wink all night! The next week I bought a Glock 21 .45 caliber. I never go into the back country without it now. There is no way I will ever feel as helpless to defend my family as I did that night...hopefully I'll never need to use it.

[Klierslc]

I never carry a weapon, well perhaps a knife but defence is not why I carry it. I've never felt fearful without a weapon and I am totally comfortable being out there by myself, or with others, without weapons. Personally I have more faith in my ability to use the gray matter between my ears than I do in my ability to wield a weapon effectively so I don't find them to be well adapted to me. I don't object to responsible individuals having weapons and I am totally comfortable around those who respect them, but I fully admit to being somewhat skittish around the Rambo/John Wayne types who would put more faith in their weapons as a means of defence then they have in their own cognitive capacities to facilitate an outcome without violence.

FYI, fear has very little to do with it. As I stated before, it is in a gun owner's best interests to de-escalate a situation so he doesn't have to use a gun. However, when you get to the end of your go/no go chart, you will be left with an angry criminal who wants to kill you for trying to talk his ear off. I am left with a very polite criminal who will do what I say.

[bobDog]

The other reality is that we likely have a lot less scared white guys with guns running around in the woods so there is less need for them up here.

I carry a gun when I intend to kill something. That's pretty much it.Hmmmmm......I never carry a handgun w/ the intent to kill.....but the day I do need to defend myself and others, and there is nothing in the small of my back will a sad day indeed. Sorry but I carry as a precaution. You carry a 1st aid kit but you don't plan on getting hurt, right? :coffee:

[bobDog]

I've never been a gun owner until a couple years ago. When in the back country of CO I'm always weary of bears, mountain lions, etc. However, as has been mentioned, it's the 2 legged kind that usually cause the problems. 3 or 4 years ago my wife, 3 kids and I were primitive camping in the middle of nowhere...6-7 miles from anyone. About 11:30 at night after the kids were in bed this Jeep with monster tires, about 8 bright lights and tunes cranked comes flying up the trail towards camp. My wife and I were enjoying the peace and quiet, the stars and a nice fire. The Jeep rolls into our camp and out jump these 2 f'ing hillbillies just drunk *** h#ll. They start giving us a hard time, asking us what we were doing out here all alone, circling around us with beers in hand telling my wife she had a nice @ss, etc. I had no real weapon...a shovel, an axe, but no real weapon. I felt helpless and really thought they were going to do something stupid that I might not be able to prevent. My kids woke up due to the noise and one guy told them to shut up. I noticed one of them had a large Rambo knife on his belt and the other had a holster that looked like a pistol However, it was dark and I wasn't asking questions. After about 10 minutes another truck was coming in the distance. They quickly jumped in their rig and took off never to be seen again. I didn't sleep a wink all night! The next week I bought a Glock 21 .45 caliber. I never go into the back country without it now. There is no way I will ever feel as helpless to defend my family as I did that night...hopefully I'll never need to use it. good on you....just be sure you have a lot and always recent training and practice so you are always at the top of you abilities.....will make a world of difference if you ever need to defend you and yours!

[bobDog]

I love guns so much I think we should arm every newborn infant.



. Not to mention a tattoo, right?:sombrero:

[Lost Canadian]

FYI, fear has very little to do with it.
For some I believe fear has a lot to do with the decision to carry a weapon or not. Heck simply read some of the responces in this thread. I would and will never argue that it's everyones reasoning, but discounting fear as a motive to have a weapon while in the back country would be naive thinking. Certainly there are those whom carry because they are fearful of others or the possibility of bad circumstance, that goes without question.

Weapons are tools, and like all tools not everyone has the capacity to use them effectively. I think the typical arguments for and against weapons are quite nonsensical. The choice should be an entirely personal one. People who blindly suggest that others would be better served by having a weapon are missing a critical link with the reasoning for having it.

[Klierslc]

For some I believe fear has a lot to do with the decision to carry a weapon or not. Heck simply read some of the responces in this thread. I would and will never argue that it's everyones reasoning, but discounting fear as a motive to have a weapon while in the back country would be naive thinking. Certainly there are those whom carry because they are fearful of others or the possibility of bad circumstance, that goes without question.

Weapons are tools, and like all tools not everyone has the capcity to use them effectively. I think the typical arguments for and against weapons are quite nonsensical. The choice should be an entirely personal one. People who blindly suggest that others would be better served by having a weapon are missing a critical link with the reasoning for having it.

You may be right, but for those who consider a weapon a tool, fear is not a motivation.

For instance, I carry a spare tire not because I am fearful of getting a flat, but because flats happen and I don't want to be stranded. I agree that carrying weapons should be a personal choice, but it should be an informed choice.

In pint's situation, if he had a pistol, he would still be afraid, (as would I) but he would have a means to respond in kind to any threat. Having a weapon doesn't make one immune to fear, it simply increases your odds of survival.


Another reason that hasn't come up much is the emergency utility of a firearm. You fall and break your leg. You can signal for help. You can fend off critters who come to eat you and then eat them if you are running low on food. In a pinch you could use it on yourself before being eaten alive by a pack of wolves........or squirrels......or fire ants..

[Flounder]

I've never been a gun owner until a couple years ago. When in the back country of CO I'm always weary of bears, mountain lions, etc. However, as has been mentioned, it's the 2 legged kind that usually cause the problems. 3 or 4 years ago my wife, 3 kids and I were primitive camping in the middle of nowhere...6-7 miles from anyone. About 11:30 at night after the kids were in bed this Jeep with monster tires, about 8 bright lights and tunes cranked comes flying up the trail towards camp. My wife and I were enjoying the peace and quiet, the stars and a nice fire. The Jeep rolls into our camp and out jump these 2 f'ing hillbillies just drunk *** h#ll. They start giving us a hard time, asking us what we were doing out here all alone, circling around us with beers in hand telling my wife she had a nice @ss, etc. I had no real weapon...a shovel, an axe, but no real weapon. I felt helpless and really thought they were going to do something stupid that I might not be able to prevent. My kids woke up due to the noise and one guy told them to shut up. I noticed one of them had a large Rambo knife on his belt and the other had a holster that looked like a pistol However, it was dark and I wasn't asking questions. After about 10 minutes another truck was coming in the distance. They quickly jumped in their rig and took off never to be seen again. I didn't sleep a wink all night! The next week I bought a Glock 21 .45 caliber. I never go into the back country without it now. There is no way I will ever feel as helpless to defend my family as I did that night...hopefully I'll never need to use it.That is a terrible story. I'm so glad it turned out as it did. My fear, should I be in that spot with a weapon, is that I would attempt to defuse the situation with the gun, things would go bad, someone would get shot, and THEN the other truck would roll up the road to be witness to a killing and not just a couple fools causing trouble. At least with your scenario, no one was killed.

[Street Wolf]

It's absolute stupidity to not carry a weapon and know when not to use it, when to use it, and how to use it when you do. Especially when you're putting yourself in a situation where you're going to be the only person capable of defending yourself.

[SAR_Squid79]

Do you feel the need to have a weapon when camping
Yes.

[IggyB]

Canuck here and yes, I do bring the guns camping. 12 gauge shotguns.

For the rest of my Canadian friends, here's a link to RCMP site you want to read

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/wild-sauvage-eng.htm

"However, in a remote wilderness area, non-restricted firearms do not have to be made inoperable or locked up. They must be unloaded, but the ammunition can be kept handy."

[Scenic WonderRunner]

Sometimes I bring my Browning Hi Power. And sometimes I bring a Big Stick! And sometimes both.

Depends on what mood I'm in.


I've been looking at shotguns lately. Thinking of adding to the arsenal.

Protection in the outback, is a good thing. Especially if you travel alone. And Especially if you bring your Family as mentioned above by "pint"....!

That's the best post yet!



.

[Lost Canadian]

It's absolute stupidity to not carry a weapon and know when not to use it, when to use it, and how to use it when you do. Especially when you're putting yourself in a situation where you're going to be the only person capable of defending yourself.


So those who choose not to carry a weapon are stupid?

Stupid is trying to validate an argument with strong language while alienating the people you hope to convince. And if the posturing isn't aimed at others offering an alternate view then it's simply a display of unwarranted importance and overbearing pride. This can be said of anyone making grandiose statements either for or against weapons while camping. Perhaps this thread has run its course.

[modelbuilder]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny9O7yAXK8g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD-KaUl_olo

[Street Wolf]

So those who choose not to carry a weapon are stupid?

Stupid is trying to validate an argument with strong language while alienating the people you hope to convince. And if the posturing isn't aimed at others offering an alternate view then it's simply a display of unwarranted importance and overbearing pride. This can be said of anyone making grandiose statements either for or against weapons while camping. Perhaps this thread has run its course.

Alright, you're right. The correct term to use would of been 'ignorant moron'.

On top of that, I'm not trying to convince anyone to carry a weapon. I could really care less if they choose not to.

[SunTzuNephew]

And while it's not simple, getting a license (PAL) in Canada for an American is possible, just tedious.

I had a funny telephone conversation after I applied, with a representative of the firearms licensing folks (in Nova Scotia?)....the application asks if I owned any prohibited firearms (in Canada that starts out with any handgun with a barrel less than 4" long)....Why, yes: I do (like my Glock 30's)....

"You can't have those in Canada" he says.

"Yes, I know. I keep them in the US because of that, along with most of the rest of my firearms".

"You're not going to bring them to Canada?"

"No. That would be unlawful, wouldn't it?"

"Thanks very much, have a good day, eh?"

"Thanks, you too!"

I got the card a week later in the mail.

[Fireman78]

By all means, firearms should be kept out of the hands of young children.

I also don't like toy guns - water pistols and the like. Some of them are quite realistic (I actually carried one as my 'sidearm' during National Guard annual training one year - rather than risk losing it) and asking an 8 year old kid to discriminate between real and fake is unreasonable (but then, thats the kind of nonsense we've come to expect from Dr. Kellerman). Imagine, locking up a couple of kids in a room with drawers, with who knows what other stimulation for 15 minutes and guess what will happen? What would happen in a room with a TV or playstation, books, toys, magazines? Or, if the kids were alone? But, Dr. Kellerman is known for stacking the deck.

On the other hand, 'safely' locking up firearms can result in tragedy: Google Jessica Carpenter and Merced - a 14 year old girl that had been trained to safely handle firearms. She was responsible for her siblings while the parents were away, and the family firearms were legally, and safely locked up.

A pitchfork-wielding mutant broke in after cutting the phone lines, and proceeded to start stabbing the kids in their beds. Jessica tried to call 9-1-1, the statist clown's answer for this situation, but the lines were cut. She tried to get to the families guns, but they were locked up in accordance with California's laws. She ran next door and asked the neighbor not to call 9-1-1 (since her siblings were ALREADY being killed), she asked that the neighbor get HIS gun and kill the guy.

After all, when you have only seconds to live, dial 9-1-1: The police are only MINUTES away.

William and Ashley Carpenter were dead. Anna was wounded, but survived.

The State of California put Mr. Carpenter into an untenable situation. He could leave the tools available for his qualified family members to defend themselves and each other....or he could go to jail. Thanks to the California legislators desire to prevent people from defending themselves.

I wonder how Mr. Carpenter feels about his 'lawful' choice today?

It KILLS me to hear stories like that. I hate to say it but.... there are a million laws out there, including Kalifornia's retarted law telling homeowners they have to have locked up guns. Why do people think they have to abide by every written law of the land? Whatever happened to personal responsibility? To think the gub-ment will save you is absurd. I was a cop at one time,, and I can tell you, I don't depend on them for sh*&T. Of course.. I live down a long dirt road, might have something to do with it.

[Lost Canadian]

Alright, you're right. The correct term to use would of been 'ignorant moron'.
I'm not going to dignify that with an appropriate response.

As I said, this thread has run its course. When the talk closes off and becomes a back and forth of absolutes there is nothing to be gained by discussing it further.

[xcmountain80]

All not in favor of defense tools while camping please place a sign in front of your camp site stating this, so the meth addicts leave me the hell alone.

A

[Flounder]

Alright, you're right. The correct term to use would of been 'ignorant moron'.
.Street Wolf, I don't think that's necessary.

To be sure, there are a great many travelers on here who have traveled farther than you, me and nearly all of us combined and have done so safely and happily without weapons on board. Not to say you need or don't need one, simply pointing out that those people who chose to leave home without weapons are hardly stupid or morons.

Am I to assume your travels will only take you as far as your "arms" will reach? What if you want to travel outside the US?

[SunTzuNephew]

It KILLS me to hear stories like that. I hate to say it but.... there are a million laws out there, including Kalifornia's retarted law telling homeowners they have to have locked up guns. Why do people think they have to abide by every written law of the land? Whatever happened to personal responsibility? To think the gub-ment will save you is absurd. I was a cop at one time,, and I can tell you, I don't depend on them for sh*&T. Of course.. I live down a long dirt road, might have something to do with it.

Well, if they don't abide, and the police find out, they have committed a felony and will lose their kids, lose their civil rights, lose their Constitutional rights.....

But I agree with you. One of the reasons I left California.

And like I said about mutants threatening your family or your life: When seconds count, the police are only minutes away. When I lived in Arizona, there frequently was only 1 deputy patrolling the county at night. It was a big county, with lots of twisty mountain roads. If he was writing a speeding ticket on the other side of the county how long do you think it would take to get to me, code-3?

[SunTzuNephew]

All not in favor of defense tools while camping please place a sign in front of your camp site stating this, so the meth addicts leave me the hell alone.

A


Kind of like this?


http://disinter.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/home-defense-self-defence-nra-guns-firearms.jpg?w=500&h=310

[Mr. Leary]

Alright, you're right. The correct term to use would of been 'ignorant moron'.

On top of that, I'm not trying to convince anyone to carry a weapon. I could really care less if they choose not to.

I believe the aforementioned "poopyhead" would have been a more appropriate choice of vernacular to demonstrate to precariousness of your statement.

"I know you can fight, but its our wits that make us men." - Braveheart

I have a few SOF buddies who can "make do" just fine without a "weapon."


For some I believe fear has a lot to do with the decision to carry a weapon or not. Heck simply read some of the responces in this thread. I would and will never argue that it's everyones reasoning, but discounting fear as a motive to have a weapon while in the back country would be naive thinking. Certainly there are those whom carry because they are fearful of others or the possibility of bad circumstance, that goes without question.

Weapons are tools, and like all tools not everyone has the capacity to use them effectively. I think the typical arguments for and against weapons are quite nonsensical. The choice should be an entirely personal one. People who blindly suggest that others would be better served by having a weapon are missing a critical link with the reasoning for having it.

Fear of the unknown. I can think of a hundred reasons why I should carry the means to defend myself, but its for the reasons I can't think of that I bring them. Quote is taken a little out of context, but I believe it still applies. We prepare, we drill ourselves to problem solve tight situations or repair journey threatening break downs. These are things we can think of.

Personally, I feel safer with a firearm, but I will not let the choice dictate my travel plans. As I have mentioned before, thereare many ways to defend yourself other than weapons, but it helps to have the right tool for thejob when you need it.

[Scenic WonderRunner]

An old topic that always cause's battles.

http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25020&highlight=carry+gun+camping

It's not like it has never been discussed before.

Carry if you like. If you don't want to, don't.


I promise to always protect the guy who doesn't!....:sombrero::costumed-smiley-007:ylsmoke:




.

[Flounder]

Let me try to redirect this. I do have a question for those who prefer to carry. Does it impact your choice of destination? I've traveled all over North America, Alaska, Mexico, Western Canada, Asia, Africa, Europe, etc. It's just not practical to swing into Dakar with a Colt on your hip and it's fair to say some of these destinations are far more risky than your local wooded hollow. Do you just not go to those places?

[Flounder]

You shouldn't start a sentence with the word "and".
Sure you can. Didn't you see Goodwill Hunting?:ylsmoke:

[SunTzuNephew]

Let me try to redirect this. I do have a question for those who prefer to carry. Does it impact your choice of destination? I've traveled all over North America, Alaska, Mexico, Western Canada, Asia, Africa, Europe, etc. It's just not practical to swing into Dakar with a Colt on your hip and it's fair to say some of these destinations are far more risky than your local wooded hollow. Do you just not go to those places?


To an extent. For practical purposes you can't take firearms into Mexico at all (especially military caliber, of which I am quite fond), and Canada is problematic so if I'm headed north or south I am certain to not carry. Does it mean I don't go more to those places? Not really, I think. I've been all through Central America (drove to Panama and back) and don't have any burning desire to return.

As far as Dakar goes, an AK-47 slung with insouciance over your back is always en vogue.

[Scenic WonderRunner]

I've never been a gun owner until a couple years ago. When in the back country of CO I'm always weary of bears, mountain lions, etc. However, as has been mentioned, it's the 2 legged kind that usually cause the problems. 3 or 4 years ago my wife, 3 kids and I were primitive camping in the middle of nowhere...6-7 miles from anyone. About 11:30 at night after the kids were in bed this Jeep with monster tires, about 8 bright lights and tunes cranked comes flying up the trail towards camp. My wife and I were enjoying the peace and quiet, the stars and a nice fire. The Jeep rolls into our camp and out jump these 2 f'ing hillbillies just drunk *** h#ll. They start giving us a hard time, asking us what we were doing out here all alone, circling around us with beers in hand telling my wife she had a nice @ss, etc. I had no real weapon...a shovel, an axe, but no real weapon. I felt helpless and really thought they were going to do something stupid that I might not be able to prevent. My kids woke up due to the noise and one guy told them to shut up. I noticed one of them had a large Rambo knife on his belt and the other had a holster that looked like a pistol However, it was dark and I wasn't asking questions. After about 10 minutes another truck was coming in the distance. They quickly jumped in their rig and took off never to be seen again. I didn't sleep a wink all night! The next week I bought a Glock 21 .45 caliber. I never go into the back country without it now. There is no way I will ever feel as helpless to defend my family as I did that night...hopefully I'll never need to use it.


pint's story really sums it up.

You can choose to carry a firearm to protect yourself and your Family....your young Children!

Or you can choose not to, and Hope that you will not become a Victim like pint's Family almost did.

The Gun....prevents the tragic unknown from happening.

Because overwhelming firepower always wins!


Stay Safe....

.

[Root Moose]

From what you guys are saying it sounds to me like the U.S.A. is a very violent place. Mutants putting pitch forks through children, yahoos circling the camp threatening with weapons. If I was camping in the U.S. I'd consider carrying a gun. On second thought, maybe I'll just avoid the U.S. altogether since it is so violent. No need to subject my family to the spectre of constant fear from unknowns. There is plenty of stuff up here to see till I can't travel any more.

I don't need a gun to feel safe in Canada. If I was in a soft sided camper in big bear or cat country I'd likely have a rifle relatively handy but beyond that there is no need for a gun unless I'm explicitly out hunting.

[SunTzuNephew]

From what you guys are saying it sounds to me like the U.S.A. is a very violent place. Mutants putting pitch forks through children, yahoos circling the camp threatening with weapons. If I was camping in the U.S. I'd consider carrying a gun. On second thought, maybe I'll just avoid the U.S. altogether since it is so violent. No need to subject my family to the spectre of constant fear from unknowns. There is plenty of stuff up here to see till I can't travel any more.

I don't need a gun to feel safe in Canada. If I was in a soft sided camper in big bear or cat country I'd likely have a rifle relatively handy but beyond that there is no need for a gun unless I'm explicitly out hunting.


Right. Like Canada didn't have that mutant Pickton in BC who was killing and burying girls on his hog farm (he confessed that he had killed 49 and wanted to kill 1 more to make it an even 50, was convicted of only 6), or Homolka, who went on a killing spree with her husband Bernardo, or that cop who got shot last week in S. Ontario (by an illegally transported rifle) or the other cop in Ottawa around the first of the year who was sitting in his car at the General (Hospital) and was stabbed to death .... by a suspended but not fired member of the RCMP... to name just a few recent cases; and I could go on. Oh, lets not forget the Montreal shooter (Wiki has three different events called the "Montreal Shooting", it's a dangerous town) - Marc Lepine (aka Gamil Rodrigue Liass Gharbi) takes a mini-14 to school and kills 14 women - because he didn't approve of women in 'mens jobs'. Canada has no lack of mutants.

Humans have a God-given right to defend themselves against those who wish to do us ill. The difference is that in the United States we have a Constitutional guarantee that the state can't take that right away from us: Canada has nothing like it (in fact, self defense is specifically NOT a reason you can get a gun in Canada, and there is no provision for CCW).

Need help? Dial 9-1-1. BTW, that cop in S. Ontario was on his way to a domestic violence call when he decided (for whatever reason) to pull over another vehicle. What if some mutant had been trying to kill the caller? Did anyone ever show up to that call?

[Root Moose]

There goes another fuzzy grenade.

I thought we were talking about camping - not looking for trouble in the seedier bits of Van (Pickton). The other scenarios you mention wouldn't be solved with CCW either. Look at what having a weapon handy did for that cop that was stabbed to death in Ottawa. Not a damn thing.

Bad **** happens, particularly in higher population centers. That is the truth. But there is not a boogey man out to murder you behind every tree in the woods.

[Root Moose]

From what you guys are saying it sounds to me like the U.S.A. is a very violent place. Mutants putting pitch forks through children, yahoos circling the camp threatening with weapons. If I was camping in the U.S. I'd consider carrying a gun. On second thought, maybe I'll just avoid the U.S. altogether since it is so violent. No need to subject my family to the spectre of constant fear from unknowns. There is plenty of stuff up here to see till I can't travel any more.


That pretty much sums up the United States of America.

We would love you to come to the US... and spend some money!

You know I was just be facetious. :) Or are you luring me down to take my money at gun point? LOL

[Flounder]

To an extent.

As far as Dakar goes, an AK-47 slung with insouciance over your back is always en vogue.Thanks for answering that. I always wondered if guys who felt so strongly about being armed just never left the security of their weapons, and the safety of the US, or just took on the "added risk" of not being armed in other countries.

For what it's worth, I've been to Dakar twice. Both times, the only thing slung over my shoulder was a Timbuk2 bag. :)

[Root Moose]

Humans have a God-given right to defend themselves against those who wish to do us ill. The difference is that in the United States we have a Constitutional guarantee that the state can't take that right away from us: Canada has nothing like it (in fact, self defense is specifically NOT a reason you can get a gun in Canada, and there is no provision for CCW).

For the record, I have no problems whatsoever with guns. I've handled guns, was on a shooting team, etc., etc. They are just tools. I don't bring a welder to fix wooden gazebo.

Buy as many as you want. Go to the range 7 days a week; have fun. As long as they are properly stored "fill yer boots" if that is what you are into.

[SunTzuNephew]

There goes another fuzzy grenade.

I thought we were talking about camping - not looking for trouble in the seedier bits of Van (Pickton). The other scenarios you mention wouldn't be solved with CCW either. Look at what having a weapon handy did for that cop that was stabbed to death in Ottawa. Not a damn thing.

Bad **** happens, particularly in higher population centers. That is the truth. But there is not a boogey man out to murder you behind every tree in the woods.

So, the 49 hookers in Van shouldn't have been there? The 3 that Homolka/Bernardo killed were just crap happening? The 14 Women in Motreal had it coming for being in an engineering class? The guy who killed the cop in Ottawa (and articulated that he was going over to Tims to kill someone else) didn't mean it? BTW, sitting in a patrol car is NOT having a firearm handy - try getting a wallet out of your rear pocket, a handgun isn't quite that easy because of the weapons retention design of the holster.

You can depend on the state to defend you (and that works really well, in the US, in Canada, in Armenia, in Russia, in Georgia.....Rwanda, Sudan, Kosovo) or you can take steps to protect yourself. Your choice.

[TACODOC]

I never carry a weapon, well perhaps a knife but defence is not why I carry it. I've never felt fearful without a weapon and I am totally comfortable being out there by myself, or with others, without weapons. Personally I have more faith in my ability to use the gray matter between my ears than I do in my ability to wield a weapon effectively so I don't find them to be well adapted to me. I don't object to responsible individuals having weapons and I am totally comfortable around those who respect them, but I fully admit to being somewhat skittish around the Rambo/John Wayne types who would put more faith in their weapons as a means of defence then they have in their own cognitive capacities to facilitate an outcome without violence.

"Cognitive capacities" are not enough to "facilitate an outcome without violence" if someone/something intends to harm you and yours, especially in the back country far, far away from LE or help.

Big brains and debating skills dont impress those with small primitive brains and mayhem on the mind, 2 or 4 legged.

Trust someone who has seen violence on a massive scale - you can't talk your way out of violence if that's a strangers intent.

If anything a real psycho will get off on your attempt to reason with them once they know you are unarmed... and will most likely move on once they realize you are a hard target.

[daverami]

Amen, Dave.

[Expedition Key]

Whoa... 160 posts today!!!, It's going to take me some time to read through them all. Thanks for all the input guys, I hope everyone played nice.

Kye

[UK4X4]

"It's just not practical to swing into Dakar with a Colt on your hip and it's fair to say some of these destinations are far more risky than your local wooded hollow.

Do you just not go to those places?"

1/2 the people posting on the portal do'nt even have a passport, the other half that do -80% did their travel with the military

That leaves a small fraction of our population that actually globally travel ...........

There is no way to overland with firearms.......unless your travels only

involve North America.

Outside in the big scary world,
you would be lucky to have a knife as their even illegal to carry on the street in some countries and your best weapon






is usually a smile:)



The machete should only be used for decapitating coconuts

[baca327]

"Cognitive capacities" are not enough to "facilitate an outcome without violence" if someone/something intends to harm you and yours, especially in the back country far, far away from LE or help.

Big brains and debating skills dont impress those with small primitive brains and mayhem on the mind, 2 or 4 legged.

Trust someone who has seen violence on a massive scale - you can't talk your way out of violence if that's a strangers intent.

If anything a real psycho will get off on your attempt to reason with them once they know you are unarmed... and will most likely move on once they realize you are a hard target.

Very well put. While I'm at it camping .40 on the hip and 12g next to me. Firearms save lives and so do CCW check this out scroll all they way down to Aug 26th
http://www.thearmedcitizen.com/category/nm/page/2/

[Hilldweller]

That leaves a small fraction of our population that actually globally travel ...........

There is no way to overland with firearms.......I'm lucky enough to have family in some exotic (and sometimes dangerous) locals that provide weapons when we visit.
Car-jackings and armed banditos are sad realities in many places.

[Lost Canadian]

"Cognitive capacities" are not enough to "facilitate an outcome without violence" if someone/something intends to harm you and yours, especially in the back country far, far away from LE or help.

Big brains and debating skills dont impress those with small primitive brains and mayhem on the mind, 2 or 4 legged.

Trust someone who has seen violence on a massive scale - you can't talk your way out of violence if that's a strangers intent.

If anything a real psycho will get off on your attempt to reason with them once they know you are unarmed... and will most likely move on once they realize you are a hard target.

Dave I'm speaking of those who have a shoot first ask questions later type of mentality. People who lack process of thought, yet hold weapons, quite frankly make me nervous and I'd rather not be around them. Of course this could be made into an argument for the civil minded to carry but I'm not debating why someone should or should not have a weapon.

I answered this thread because the OP simply asked us 'if' we carry while camping and 'why." I gave my reasons. My reasons need not be debated any more then the guy who chooses to carry a weapon. I certainly don't believe the OP asked for a debate on the right to carry, which a few here seem compelled to try and make it, and I'm talking both sides as well. As I said and feel, this is a personal issue, and the only reasonable response to the OP's question is to reflect our own personal beliefs and decisions as to why or why we do not carry a weapon while camping. I think most of us are smart enough to realize that making this thread into someting it is not is a one way ticket to lock down.

If others feel better carrying while camping more power to to them. For me though, personally, I've never felt that having a weapon was a necessity, or would provide much benefit to me. Pesonal choice. For the places I go most often, I'm not sure many crack heads would be willing to follow, but hey, if a crack head wants to follow me on foot or in a canoe for days on end into the wilderness to do me harm, slap me silly and call me snookered but it's a chance I'm willing to take.

[Klierslc]

When in Rome.....

If I went somewhere that didn't allow firearms, I would take whatever legal steps I could to protect my family.....Nightstick, golf club, stun gun, pepper spray, knife, paintball gun (you laugh, but this is a surprisingly effective defensive weapon.) If you could get OC paintballs, I would carry one daily. That being said, the old restrictions on having weapons in national parks didn't ever deter me. I made a decision to put my safety above that particular law. I was also willing to deal with the consequences. I ensured that I was discreet, and if I ever needed a weapon, I would be glad to take my lumps in court as long as the family was OK.



That's great and all, but will that hold up in a court of law when I have to explain to the jury why I just shot and killed 2 mutants who have (or had) small primitive brains with diminished "Cognitive capacities"?

Better to have to explain yourself to a Jury than have your eulogy read......or have to read your kid's eulogy. Dead men tell no tales-shoot to kill. It is part of the social contract. If you threaten bodily harm to me or mine, you have given up your right to life.

[R_Lefebvre]

Wow, I've got a lot of catching up to do... in the meantime:


And anyone who uses (bogus) gun accident statistics on a vehicle forum as an excuse not to carry or have a gun is a hypocrite, pure and simple. There are at least +30K deaths due car accidents in this country every year; using the same logic, these simpletons shouldn't even have a car much less one for a hobby.

Yeah see, the problem with that is that I'm not using statistics to say people should use guns, or label guns as "unsafe", etc. I'm using them simply to prove the point that having a gun, does not make you less likely to die. It does not make you safer.

While it's true that vehicles kill more people (actually... I assume that's true, it's worth checking) what is the alternative? Just not going anywhere isn't much of an alternative. Conversely, you can choose to just not have a gun.

[Klierslc]

I'm using them simply to prove the point that having a gun, does not make you less likely to die. It does not make you safer.



It does however, vastly increase your chances of survival in a certain subset of situations...

[PhulesAU]

Guns don't kill, only people do that. the gun is just a tool, your willingness and ability to use it will be the deciding factor. my guns have never killed anyone. I have done so in the line of duty twice. You alone are responsible for your own hide. philosophical online debates will not help you, when a scumbag is threatening you. If you never have any trouble in your travels that's great, I wish I'd never had any. Don't confuse the willingness to remain alive and healthy with fear or paranoia.

[R_Lefebvre]

On the other hand, 'safely' locking up firearms can result in tragedy: Google Jessica Carpenter and Merced - a 14 year old girl that had been trained to safely handle firearms. She was responsible for her siblings while the parents were away, and the family firearms were legally, and safely locked up.

A pitchfork-wielding mutant broke in after cutting the phone lines, and proceeded to start stabbing the kids in their beds. Jessica tried to call 9-1-1, the statist clown's answer for this situation, but the lines were cut. She tried to get to the families guns, but they were locked up in accordance with California's laws. She ran next door and asked the neighbor not to call 9-1-1 (since her siblings were ALREADY being killed), she asked that the neighbor get HIS gun and kill the guy.

After all, when you have only seconds to live, dial 9-1-1: The police are only MINUTES away.

William and Ashley Carpenter were dead. Anna was wounded, but survived.

The State of California put Mr. Carpenter into an untenable situation. He could leave the tools available for his qualified family members to defend themselves and each other....or he could go to jail. Thanks to the California legislators desire to prevent people from defending themselves.

I wonder how Mr. Carpenter feels about his 'lawful' choice today?

Oh please. For somebody so intelligent to submit such annecdotal evidence for consideration in this debate... It's rididculous.

How about this, you Google Shannon Hannah. This story is still unfolding as it only occured last Friday. Dean Brown dated Shannon for 4 years before breaking up with her a month ago. On Thursday night, for reasons as-yet unknown, the mother let Dean into the house to stay over. Shannon's father was working the midnight shift. Shannon's father is a hunter and presumably had guns in the house.

Something happened that night, and Dean shot and killed Shannon's mother and sister, and shot but did not kill Shannon, then fled. The father came home from work and discovered the scene. It is believed that Dean used the father's gun to commit the crime.

I wonder how Mr. Hannah feels about his 'lawful' choice today?

[john101477]

I was taught at a very young age to respect firearms. that every firearm is to be considered loaded until it is checked otherwise. that the only way to be consistent with any firearm is lots of practice. from a personal defense position, i have never had to shoot anyone, but i have detoured incidents that where headed the wrong direction. I also hunt. so i have my firearms for that as well. It is simply a personal choice. the people that live behind me just got busted for meth and illegal firearms. they were out on bail the next day. the man has also been to jail for theft. If you think we are not Locked and loaded now your off your rocker.

[Flounder]

At the root of it, as I sift past the threads including pitch fork wielding maniacs and car crash statistics, this isn't really a discussion about how to defuse a confrontation, this is a discussion about how different people assess the possibility of being in a dire situation that would involve the use of a gun.

That's somewhat at the core of this. The word "tool" has come up a number of times, so I'll go with that. I've got a ton of tools and I decide each trip which tools will need to stay home and which will likely see use on a trip. The circular saw stays home with the belt sander, but I certainly take a jack, lug wrench, etc. Same for a weapon, or even a Jet Boil stove. If I don't see a potential need for a tool, why bring it? I don't travel to places that have spooky beasts out to eat my head. I seldom travel where the threat of late night hooligans keep me skeeered. If anything, I'm more likely to carry an extra six pack for the dozens of nice people I've met on my travels.

So, this isn't about "what would you do if...." This is about how likely it is to get into that situation in the first place. As others have said, this discussion is almost silly for an "Expedition Overlanding" audience as it's only relative within the US, and travel as much as you might within the states, that's hardly an "expedition."

[Hilldweller]

My Dad was an AF (Korea) vet and cop in my home town. As a kid all my camping was with vets and cops --- lots and lots of guns, all shapes and flavors.
We shot cans and logs; never had a bear attack or pitchfork-wielding lunatic.

As an adult I continued to camp, usually just with an axe and hunting knife. I traveled and camped mostly by motorcycle in the old days.
Until that one time when I was by myself in a secluded coastal section of Florida and a sow with two cubs wandered into my camp. She charged at me and made all sorts of noise; I ran around and got the bike between us and hit the starter. Bless that Kawasaki for firing up on the first try --- and the header for being loud enough to scare the poop out of the sow for a minute. She and the cubs backed away about 10 yards and stayed there, hollerin' and groanin', standing on their hind legs and waving those ponderous claws around.
I pulled up stakes and lit out. She chased me for a little bit after I whizzed by.

Would I have shot her if I had the 12 gauge? I hope not.
But it could have gone a lot worse...

[Lost Canadian]

Here's what I think, this thread does not need to be twisted this into some kind of pro/anti gun debate. Personal choice and select circumstance is all we really need to address and discuss with regards to why we choose to take or not to take weapons with us while camping. Diatribes and impositions are not required to answer the simplest of questions like the one the OP presented are they?

[SunTzuNephew]

The machete should only be used for decapitating coconuts


But isn't it nice to know it's there, just in case?

[R_Lefebvre]

Crime rates in many of the "unarmed" countries are quite a bit higher than the US....http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_percap-crime-total-crimes-per-capita



Sorry, but that Data is bordering on useless, as there is no information reported on the source of the data. Is it all for the same years? What is the break-down of the crimes, violent crimes vs.... speeding tickets?

Most importantly, these statistics do not actually represent the actual crimes being committed. "Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence. "

Does anybody really believe Mexico's crime rate is 7 times lower than the US?


Yeah, thats the first bad study that Kellerman did. He stacked the deck there too - comparing slums in Seattle (poor, criminal elements, lack of education) with very nice neighborhoods in Vancouver.

He eventually had to 'adjust' his data, at first he made some claim about 30-40 times greater.

Thats why Kellerman isn't particularly credible.


What are you talking about? The referenced posting has nothing to do with any study by Kellerman. It shows gross, nationwide child gun deaths.

It also references a report on bear spray, which doesn't seem to have any link to Kellerman.


You'll never find a gun that has an "absolute safety," whatever that is.

What I mean is a lever or button that safties the weapon.


FYI, fear has very little to do with it. As I stated before, it is in a gun owner's best interests to de-escalate a situation so he doesn't have to use a gun. However, when you get to the end of your go/no go chart, you will be left with an angry criminal who wants to kill you for trying to talk his ear off. I am left with a very polite criminal who will do what I say.


Why the assumption that bad things will happen to unarmed people, but not to armed people? In the afformentioned drunk criminal situation... There's a number of things that might have happened.

Let's say things did escalate, and the criminals did unmentionable things to the unarmed poster's wife and family. Horrible, but they are still alive.

What if the poster was armed, and the same escalation occurred? The poster draws his gun, so does the criminal. Criminal is faster on the draw, or lucky, and shoots the poster. Then commits unmentionable acts, then kills the rest of the family.

This is better how?

I don't think most drunk crazy people are homicidal. Put them in a position where they have to defend themselves, and you're now in a gunfight.


It's absolute stupidity to not carry a weapon and know when not to use it, when to use it, and how to use it when you do. Especially when you're putting yourself in a situation where you're going to be the only person capable of defending yourself.


I can't completely disagree with this statement... except why is it in the US, it seems the only "weapon" considered is a firearm?


Canuck here and yes, I do bring the guns camping. 12 gauge shotguns.

For the rest of my Canadian friends, here's a link to RCMP site you want to read

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/f...auvage-eng.htm

"However, in a remote wilderness area, non-restricted firearms do not have to be made inoperable or locked up. They must be unloaded, but the ammunition can be kept handy."


Good info. I wasn't even aware that the guns must be kept unloaded. That's interesting. Another point for bear spray in Canada. You'll definitely be quicker on the draw with a can of spray. At the very least, it would make sense to have a can of spray *in addition* to a gun.


right back at you... Your poor example does little to make a point or establish any kind of credibility on your part. In fact, your remark:


You've COMPLETELY taken my post out of context, and THEN put words in my mouth to finish the job. Nice work.

The point of my post, is that for every annecdotal case of a firearm being used in defence, or locked up firearms NOT being used for defence, one can find a story where firearm possession did not yield the desired outcome.

Annecdotal evidence is useless to the discussion, and is just reinforcing the fear mongering that got us here in the first place.

The last sentence was reworked in order to juxtapose it against the statement originally made by Nephew. Did you come to a similar conclusion about his posting? I doubt it, because he is obviously pro-gun, and you perceive me to be anti-gun.

The fact is, that couldn't be further from the truth. As stated, I am not anti-gun. Rather, I seek only safer alternatives. The requirements to render a firearm safe and legal (in Canada) greatly reduce it's effectiveness.

"Excuse me Mr. Drunk Jeep Dude with an illegal handgun on your hip. I'm just going to slip back the truck, unlock my gun, and load it. Just... hold that thought, back in a sec."

I have fired guns, I find it's fun. I think they're interesting technical devices. I think they're cool. I'd own guns just for fun if I had a bit more money lying around. But they would be locked up safely.

I need to go back and read my old crazy-ATV-driver thread, and see if anybody there criticizing me for "using my vehicle as a weapon" are also loudly pro-gun here. ;)

[baca327]

http://www.kpho.com/news/15557876/detail.html A firearm may have saved his life. Like many, my little ones are worth more to me than my own life. A firearm is a tool yes a tool to respond quickly to a life threatening situation. A firearm is worth its weight in gold in the wilderness when your families life is in danger. A full grown couple is less likely to be attacked than say two adults and their two children. I know we have all seen animals hunting and well I have never seen them attack a healthy adult its always a adolescent, weak, or injured. I hope those of you that don't carry a firearm and have children never encounter a large predator.

Edit another link to this story
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/23592238/ns/today-today_people/ If you read you will see his uncle fired one shot with his handgun, killing the animal.

[Maximus Ram]

I hope this is the appropriate forum to discuss this. I did a search and found a lot of posts in the gun forum, but I'm not necessarily thinking of guns per se.

When I'm camping in the backcountry I sometimes wonder if I'm being naive for not having some sort of defense mechanism other than my fists or whatever crude object I may be able to scramble if awoken to some threat. I generally like to live my life free of fear but I also always like being prepared.
I've been researching guns, stun guns and knives recently and I'm curious what others are doing.

I know this is a touchy subject but I value all the input on other gear and usefulness of it, so thought I'd see what you guys are doing. I really never felt the need for any kind of weapon when I was by myself or with friends camping, but now that I have a family, protection comes to mind.

Feedback is much appreciated.

Thanks,

Kye

Yes. I/We do have firemarms when in the outdoors. Why..because we have that right and that's just how I/We roll :coffeedrink:
It all personal choice. If you feel comfortable doing so, then do it. If not, then don't.
I don't try to push my Constitutional rights on anyone, so please don't try to take them from me because you don't brlieve in them.

Have a Great day and God Bless Everyone:wavey:

[Connie]

When I'm camping in the backcountry I sometimes wonder if I'm being naive for not having some sort of defense mechanism other than my fists or whatever crude object I may be able to scramble if awoken to some threat. I generally like to live my life free of fear but I also always like being prepared.


You are not naive. I have had a hyaena walk up to within 15 feet of me when I was by myself, armed only with a Mag light. My husband chased off two would be thieves from our truck, armed with a tent pole. We chased off baboons by pretending to have a sling shot (clearly they have had encounters with the real thing). But we've also packed up camp in under five minutes and left when things just didn't feel right.

You are not naive, but if you are uncomfortable you should check into "some sort of defense mechanism". As long as you are familiar with local regulations, and proper safety, I see no problem with it.

[SunTzuNephew]

Oh please. For somebody so intelligent to submit such annecdotal evidence for consideration in this debate... It's rididculous.

How about this, you Google Shannon Hannah. This story is still unfolding as it only occured last Friday. Dean Brown dated Shannon for 4 years before breaking up with her a month ago. On Thursday night, for reasons as-yet unknown, the mother let Dean into the house to stay over. Shannon's father was working the midnight shift. Shannon's father is a hunter and presumably had guns in the house.

Something happened that night, and Dean shot and killed Shannon's mother and sister, and shot but did not kill Shannon, then fled. The father came home from work and discovered the scene. It is believed that Dean used the father's gun to commit the crime.

I wonder how Mr. Hannah feels about his 'lawful' choice today?

Well, we don't know how firearms (if any were there at all, hunter could be bow hunter, black powder hunter, trapper) were stored. It sounds as though he had literally no impact on the events, except to have gone to work. The mother seems to have demonstrated particularly poor judgment in that case. BTW, WTH is an 18 year old doing being the 'boyfriend' of a 14 year old girl?

On the other hand, Mr. Carpenter took the state at it's word, that they would be responsible for defending his family. So did Mr. Hannah, but he lacked any frame of reference to a society where he had the right to defend himself, as we enjoy in the United States. Three of Mr. Carpenters children were killed while a fourth, who could have stopped the carnage, was denied by the state from having the resources to do so. Maybe she wouldn't have stopped it: Maybe she would have been killed as well. But one thing is certain, a 14 year old girl was outmatched by a grown male with a pitchfork, and because the law mandated that the guns be locked up so a competent person couldn't get to them, three kids died.

And such laws do very little to protect anyone, even absent the massive failures such as this. Very few children are accidentally killed by firearms. Every such death is a tragedy, but if our goal is a completely safe society lets do away with bath tubs, swimming pools and 5 gallon buckets, all of which are responsible for more accidental child deaths than firearms.

[R_Lefebvre]

I don't try to push my Constitutional rights on anyone, so please don't try to take them from me because you don't brlieve in them.


This is the problem. Why does this discussion INVARIABLY lead gun owners into thinking somebody wants to take their guns away from them? That is NOT the point of this thread.

[baca327]

Yes. I/We do have firemarms when in the outdoors. Why..because we have that right and that's just how I/We roll :coffeedrink:
It all personal choice. If you feel comfortable doing so, then do it. If not, then don't.
I don't try to push my Constitutional rights on anyone, so please don't try to take them from me because you don't brlieve in them.

Have a Great day and God Bless Everyone:wavey:
Amen...:clapsmile Children make things different they arent as strong willed as full grown adult. They get scared and animals can sense it, that is the reason most carry firearms in the wilderness not for themselves but for their family.. A human causing trouble most likely wont bother you if your open carrying, but a large predator doesn't know the difference.

[Maximus Ram]

This is the problem. Why does this discussion INVARIABLY lead gun owners into thinking somebody wants to take their guns away from them? That is NOT the point of this thread.

You obviously don't live in california...we are not only in a fight for our firearms, but our vehicles ,outdoor enjoyment and fishing. It's getting tough to be an outdoor sportsman in cali.

:coffee:

[baca327]

http://www.kpho.com/news/15557876/detail.html A firearm may have saved his life. Like many, my little ones are worth more to me than my own life. A firearm is a tool yes a tool to respond quickly to a life threatening situation. A firearm is worth its weight in gold in the wilderness when your families life is in danger. A full grown couple is less likely to be attacked than say two adults and their two children. I know we have all seen animals hunting and well I have never seen them attack a healthy adult its always a adolescent, weak, or injured. I hope those of you that don't carry a firearm and have children never encounter a large predator.

Edit another link to this story
http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/23592238/ns/today-today_people/ If you read you will see his uncle fired one shot with his handgun, killing the animal.

No response, a mountain lion walked past 10 adults, straight to the children. 10 full grown adults....

[R_Lefebvre]

Well, we don't know how firearms (if any were there at all, hunter could be bow hunter, black powder hunter, trapper) were stored. It sounds as though he had literally no impact on the events, except to have gone to work. The mother seems to have demonstrated particularly poor judgment in that case.

On the other hand, Mr. Carpenter took the state at it's word, that they would be responsible for defending his family. Three of his children were killed while a fourth, who could have stopped the carnage, was denied by the state from having the resources to do so. Maybe she wouldn't have stopped it: Maybe she would have been killed as well. But one thing is certain, a 14 year old girl was outmatched by a grown male with a pitchfork, and because the law mandated that the guns be locked up so a competent person couldn't get to them, three kids died.

And such laws do very little to protect anyone, even absent the massive failures such as this. Very few children are accidentally killed by firearms. Every such death is a tragedy, but if our goal is a completely safe society lets do away with bath tubs, swimming pools and 5 gallon buckets, all of which are responsible for more accidental child deaths than firearms.

I know very well how long it takes the police to get there.

Years ago I was sleeping over at my wife's parent's house. My FIL is a cop. In the middle of the night, some kids from "the project" went into his back yard and stole his patio furniture. He woke up, and took off after them with nothing but his tighty whities. He caught one and took him down. I was up at this point, and instructed to go back into the house to get his duty belt so he could cuff the kid, and my wife called the police. who instructed them an off-duty officer had detained a theif and needed assistance.

After handing over the cuffs, I realized I was standing there in the open, holding a belt with a gun I didn't know how to use, with an unknown number of delinquent youths lurking around, watching their friend being cuffed by a large naked man. I back up against a wall as my only defence against being jumped from behind.

It took the police 5 minutes to show up.

Even if I'd known how to use a gun and drawn it, I'm still standing there, in the light, them in the darkness, and now it's a gunfight. I did NOT feel safer holding that belt.

As for the Hannah case, I'm working off of local knowledge not yet published in the media.

[R_Lefebvre]

Amen... Children make things different they arent as strong willed as full grown adult. They get scared and animals can sense it, that is the reason most carry firearms in the wilderness not for themselves but for their family.. A human causing trouble most likely wont bother you if your open carrying, but a large predator doesn't know the difference.


How does this reinforce use of guns for defence?

A predator doesn't know the difference. They're also very likely to grab, or be very close to your child before you know what's happening. Are you REALLY going to shoot if said predator is close to, or has a hold of your child? You certainly can't talk down a predator at gun point. So what options are you left with?

At least with pepper spray, you could hose them all down, they are most likely to drop the child and flee, and then you can seek medical attention for your child. Not the best situation in the world, but beats the alternative. Standing there with a shotgun, while your child disappears into the bush.

[SunTzuNephew]

I know very well how long it takes the police to get there.

Years ago I was sleeping over at my wife's parent's house. My FIL is a cop. In the middle of the night, some kids from "the project" went into his back yard and stole his patio furniture. He woke up, and took off after them with nothing but his tighty whities. He caught one and took him down. I was up at this point, and instructed to go back into the house to get his duty belt so he could cuff the kid, and my wife called the police. who instructed them an off-duty officer had detained a theif and needed assistance.

After handing over the cuffs, I realized I was standing there in the open, holding a belt with a gun I didn't know how to use, with an unknown number of delinquent youths lurking around, watching their friend being cuffed by a large naked man. I back up against a wall as my only defence against being jumped from behind.

It took the police 5 minutes to show up.

Even if I'd known how to use a gun and drawn it, I'm still standing there, in the light, them in the darkness, and now it's a gunfight. I did NOT feel safer holding that belt.

As for the Hannah case, I'm working off of local knowledge not yet published in the media.

Five minutes is pretty good, actually. Some department in Tennessee (Knoxville?) was in the news last week with a 13 minute average response time.

How long does it take to pitchfork, stab, bludgeon or shoot someone? Thats why depending on the state to protect you is folly: When seconds count, dial 9-1-1! The police are only minutes away.

Here is a blog that documents civilian self defense use of firearms, they don't lack for material: http://www.thearmedcitizen.com/

[johnnyrover]

When in polar bear country, then at least one person in the group has a firearm with most others carrying bear spray on their person at all times.

I have experienced a number of bear encounters, but a full grown male white fluffy at 50 feet is by far the most hair raising.

Otherwise, don't carry a firearm camping.

Despite the fact I have climbed out of my tent to grizzly and wolf scat at my doorstep or a full grown bull moose at 25 feet.

[BIGdaddy]

I know very well how long it takes the police to get there.

Years ago I was sleeping over at my wife's parent's house. My FIL is a cop. In the middle of the night, some kids from "the project" went into his back yard and stole his patio furniture. He woke up, and took off after them with nothing but his tighty whities. He caught one and took him down. I was up at this point, and instructed to go back into the house to get his duty belt so he could cuff the kid, and my wife called the police. who instructed them an off-duty officer had detained a theif and needed assistance.

After handing over the cuffs, I realized I was standing there in the open, holding a belt with a gun I didn't know how to use, with an unknown number of delinquent youths lurking around, watching their friend being cuffed by a large naked man. I back up against a wall as my only defence against being jumped from behind.

It took the police 5 minutes to show up.

Even if I'd known how to use a gun and drawn it, I'm still standing there, in the light, them in the darkness, and now it's a gunfight. I did NOT feel safer holding that belt.

As for the Hannah case, I'm working off of local knowledge not yet published in the media.




Crazy story...Glad that nothing happened and you both are safe.

[BIGdaddy]

How does this reinforce use of guns for defence?

A predator doesn't know the difference. They're also very likely to grab, or be very close to your child before you know what's happening. Are you REALLY going to shoot if said predator is close to, or has a hold of your child? You certainly can't talk down a predator at gun point. So what options are you left with?

At least with pepper spray, you could hose them all down, they are most likely to drop the child and flee, and then you can seek medical attention for your child. Not the best situation in the world, but beats the alternative. Standing there with a shotgun, while your child disappears into the bush.

Whem I'm out in the woods, my kids are never out of my sight, but yeah, if a mtn lion grabbed one of them, I honestly don't know what I could do to stop it...(This is hard to type..what a horrible thought)

I think my best choice would be pepper spray, a handgun or physically retaliating with a knife or my bare hands...anything that I have on my person and can put into play. There would be ABSOLUTELY NO TIME to deploy an unloaded/shouldered shotgun, let alone something that you have "not on your person".

I wouldn't mind at all, if I got tore up in the process of saving my kid.

[baca327]

How does this reinforce use of guns for defence?

A predator doesn't know the difference. They're also very likely to grab, or be very close to your child before you know what's happening. Are you REALLY going to shoot if said predator is close to, or has a hold of your child? You certainly can't talk down a predator at gun point. So what options are you left with?

At least with pepper spray, you could hose them all down, they are most likely to drop the child and flee, and then you can seek medical attention for your child. Not the best situation in the world, but beats the alternative. Standing there with a shotgun, while your child disappears into the bush.

No I would not use pepper spray, what if their child is asthmatic and could be die from inhaling any animal strength spray. Have you ever been sprayed with OC on any military grade(animal grade is close or more potent)? Those that use firearms and respect them usually visit a range. Practice is the key I'd rather run up the animal which any child being attacked the parents usually run up on it. A put the animal down before any more damage can occur. If you have children and hiking in the wilderness in something known as condition white which is carelessly walking and your children are not in view you will get a harsh reality check if a predator catches you slipping. I'm always scanning the surroundings looking for any possible threat. Those who have children will understand me. I would rather fire a warning shot and scare the animal on the approach than try and scare or throw sticks to no avail. Have you ever been stalked by a mountain lion? I tell you a mountain lion is not like a bear or pack animals but they hunt with stealth. If you have seconds to react I would take a handgun to put the animal down. What if the winds blowing and pepper spray is blown right back in your face. Is your child safer with you incapacitated and their head in the animals mouth. Practice, is what those that carry should do. It takes no longer than 5 seconds pull my pistol and be aiming, most likely even less. How long does it take you to dig in your pocket for your spray or do you carry it on your hip like Dog the bounty hunter. If you have children and carry unarmed, I pray for you and their safety and that wind is in your favor.

Edit: I don't know where you come from but I have never seen a fellow hiker carrying a shotgun. I have seen many carrying a pistol.

[Root Moose]

So, the 49 hookers in Van shouldn't have been there? The 3 that Homolka/Bernardo killed were just crap happening? The 14 Women in Motreal had it coming for being in an engineering class? The guy who killed the cop in Ottawa (and articulated that he was going over to Tims to kill someone else) didn't mean it? BTW, sitting in a patrol car is NOT having a firearm handy - try getting a wallet out of your rear pocket, a handgun isn't quite that easy because of the weapons retention design of the holster.

No, maybe if they were out camping they wouldn't have been abducted or stabbed? See... I can be ridiculous too. You are throwing red herrings to see what sticks.


You can depend on the state to defend you (and that works really well, in the US, in Canada, in Armenia, in Russia, in Georgia.....Rwanda, Sudan, Kosovo) or you can take steps to protect yourself. Your choice.

There's the rub. It has nothing to do with the State. I don't feel the need to carry around a useless tool for an eventuality that isn't going to happen. I don't carry around a operating system install disk when I'm at the race track.

[R_Lefebvre]

I've got another one. When I was 14, my brother, a younger neighbor and I camped on the small island in front of my parent's cottage without adults. In the middle of the night, some teenagers, drunk, swam across the lake and ended up on my parent's dock. They were being loud, and started talking about breaking into the cottage and doing unmentionable things. My father (who is fairly imposing) went outside and told them to leave, and they headed out back across the water, towards the island. My father went over to the neighbors and woke him and his older son, all 3 jumped in a boat and headed to the island. The older son watched over us, armed with a shovel, while my father and neighbor confronted the 3 teenagers who were on the island. I fight ensued, one of them knocked over the neighbor, but my dad subdued the other 2. We all got back to the cottage safely. It took the police 30 minutes to get there.

It might be a pro-gun story, but what really would you have done. Just up and shot 3 teenagers for being drunk and on your dock? They were 100% unarmed. Would you have ventured onto the unlit island with a weapon? One of them bested the neighbor, now it's a gunfight.

I don't think you should be taking guns into situations like that unless you intend to use them, and the boys were 100% unarmed, they had nothing but swimsuits. I don't think it would be legal to shoot them, even in the US? Yet bring a gun into the situation even for defence, and now it's a much more serious situation for all involved.

Now, this might have been a case where a safely stored weapon, with a possible warning shot into the water might have proved useful. I dunno.

In any case, it still never compelled me to own a gun.

[Klierslc]

Sorry, but that Data is bordering on useless, as there is no information reported on the source of the data. Is it all for the same years? What is the break-down of the crimes, violent crimes vs.... speeding tickets?

Most importantly, these statistics do not actually represent the actual crimes being committed. "Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence. "

Does anybody really believe Mexico's crime rate is 7 times lower than the US?


Why the assumption that bad things will happen to unarmed people, but not to armed people? In the afformentioned drunk criminal situation... There's a number of things that might have happened.

Let's say things did escalate, and the criminals did unmentionable things to the unarmed poster's wife and family. Horrible, but they are still alive.

What if the poster was armed, and the same escalation occurred? The poster draws his gun, so does the criminal. Criminal is faster on the draw, or lucky, and shoots the poster. Then commits unmentionable acts, then kills the rest of the family.

This is better how?

;)


As far as data goes, do have anything better?

Bad things happen to people, armed or unarmed, it is up to you if you want to be prepared.

The sad reality of your "What iffing" is that you don't know what a criminal is going to do. Your mentality was what the government spewed at us for years..."just comply with the criminals/bank robbers/hijackers, and they will eventually let you go." That worked real well on Sept 11th.

A basic tactical theory is that those who act first always have the advantage. Seize the initiative and make the enemy react to you rather than you having to react to the enemy. Statistically, if you are holding a person at gunpoint within 10 or so feet, you are actually at a disadvantage. You don't know what they will do, and the 3/4 of a second that it takes you to realize that they are attacking you just cost you your life.

Off topic--when holding someone at gun point, make them lay down and put their hands behind their back and look away from you. This will vastly increase your available time to react.

I prefer to act and take my chances rather than to stand by helplessly while things go sideways.



I know very well how long it takes the police to get there.

Years ago I was sleeping over at my wife's parent's house. My FIL is a cop. In the middle of the night, some kids from "the project" went into his back yard and stole his patio furniture. He woke up, and took off after them with nothing but his tighty whities. He caught one and took him down. I was up at this point, and instructed to go back into the house to get his duty belt so he could cuff the kid, and my wife called the police. who instructed them an off-duty officer had detained a theif and needed assistance.

After handing over the cuffs, I realized I was standing there in the open, holding a belt with a gun I didn't know how to use, with an unknown number of delinquent youths lurking around, watching their friend being cuffed by a large naked man. I back up against a wall as my only defence against being jumped from behind.

It took the police 5 minutes to show up.

Even if I'd known how to use a gun and drawn it, I'm still standing there, in the light, them in the darkness, and now it's a gunfight. I did NOT feel safer holding that belt.

As for the Hannah case, I'm working off of local knowledge not yet published in the media.

If you had firearm training, you would have felt a lot safer.

The method of murder in the Hannah case is not an issue. The mutant could have killed them all with a steak knife.

[R_Lefebvre]

Whem I'm out in the woods, my kids are never out of my sight, but yeah, if a mtn lion grabbed one of them, I honestly don't know what I could do to stop it...(This is hard to type..what a horrible thought)

I think my best choice would be pepper spray, a handgun or physically retaliating with a knife or my bare hands...anything that I have on my person and can put into play. There would be ABSOLUTELY NO TIME to deploy an unloaded/shouldered shotgun, let alone something that you have "not on your person".

I wouldn't mind at all, if I got tore up in the process of saving my kid.


You're right, it is a horrible thought. But at the same time, I WILL NOT live my life in fear. I roamed the woods freely when I was a kid. My children will do the same. We're talking about 2-3 deaths per year. 90 per year are killed by lightning. 30,000+ or whatever are killed in traffic accidents.

What are the societal costs associated with kids being sheltered in their living rooms in front of the XBOX? Kids growing up with no independence, no self confidence, etc.

I struggle with this question, as we have a nice play structure in the back yard, but there are also coyotes in the bush behind. Is my boy to never be able to play independently? When I grew up, me and my friends spent every sunny weekend playing in the creek, alone, with no parental involvement other than "Pack a lunch" and "be home for dinner".

Are we really going to stop our kids from doing that, because of the risk of 2-3 deaths per year? The reality is, they're at greater risk being driven to soccer practice. And probably at great risk of being struck by lighting on the field. (that happened recently around here, despite the organizers following the 30/30 rules).

I haven't read it yet myself, but will be buying the book "Last Child In The Woods". You might find it interesting too.

And what might I do? Yes, knife, sticks, stones... whatever it takes. I've shot a handgun at 75 feet. Took about 1 minute to take 13 shots, and 12 hit the UNMOVING target. No way I'd ever consider shooting in the direction of a child.

[Maximus Ram]

I've got another one. When I was 14, my brother, a younger neighbor and I camped on the small island in front of my parent's cottage without adults. In the middle of the night, some teenagers, drunk, swam across the lake and ended up on my parent's dock. They were being loud, and started talking about breaking into the cottage and doing unmentionable things. My father (who is fairly imposing) went outside and told them to leave, and they headed out back across the water, towards the island. My father went over to the neighbors and woke him and his older son, all 3 jumped in a boat and headed to the island. The older son watched over us, armed with a shovel, while my father and neighbor confronted the 3 teenagers who were on the island. I fight ensued, one of them knocked over the neighbor, but my dad subdued the other 2. We all got back to the cottage safely. It took the police 30 minutes to get there.

It might be a pro-gun story, but what really would you have done. Just up and shot 3 teenagers for being drunk and on your dock? They were 100% unarmed. Would you have ventured onto the unlit island with a weapon? One of them bested the neighbor, now it's a gunfight.

I don't think you should be taking guns into situations like that unless you intend to use them, and the boys were 100% unarmed, they had nothing but swimsuits. I don't think it would be legal to shoot them, even in the US? Yet bring a gun into the situation even for defence, and now it's a much more serious situation for all involved.

Now, this might have been a case where a safely stored weapon, with a possible warning shot into the water might have proved useful. I dunno.

In any case, it still never compelled me to own a gun.

In this case, the intruders left, threat was gone. No force needed.
Now with your Dad and neighbor following them ,they bacame the aggressors. At that point , they would be considered , by law, to be in the wrong.
It's all about knowing when and how to use a firearm. No threat, no need. But I would rather ibeing able to have one in case the need arose.

[Flounder]

Maybe I'm just an oblivious dolt, but my hippy family started taking me backpacking in the Sierras, Rockies and desert southwest when I was 5. I grew up scanning my surroundings for cool views and a lucky opportunity to eat a wild berry, not nervously looking about for a lion or bear. For one thing, in most areas that's hardly necessary. Again, I think this is all about risk assessment. Is there much risk of a bear attack (as an example) in most of the areas in the lower 48? Not really. As such, why spend so much energy frettig over a bear confrontation. However, when I lived in AK, there would be big browns in my yard. Certainly cause for a little more caution. It's highly situational.

I have a friend from Florida who came to visit and he was entirely F R E A K E D at the thought of getting mauled by a lion on a mountain bike ride near my house. I'm sure he would have loved to have a gun on his hip. So, in many cases this is about an individuals perception of the risks as much as anything.

[BIGdaddy]

I've got another one. When I was 14, my brother, a younger neighbor and I camped on the small island in front of my parent's cottage without adults. In the middle of the night, some teenagers, drunk, swam across the lake and ended up on my parent's dock. They were being loud, and started talking about breaking into the cottage and doing unmentionable things. My father (who is fairly imposing) went outside and told them to leave, and they headed out back across the water, towards the island. My father went over to the neighbors and woke him and his older son, all 3 jumped in a boat and headed to the island. The older son watched over us, armed with a shovel, while my father and neighbor confronted the 3 teenagers who were on the island. I fight ensued, one of them knocked over the neighbor, but my dad subdued the other 2. We all got back to the cottage safely. It took the police 30 minutes to get there.

It might be a pro-gun story, but what really would you have done. Just up and shot 3 teenagers for being drunk and on your dock? They were 100% unarmed. Would you have ventured onto the unlit island with a weapon? One of them bested the neighbor, now it's a gunfight.

I don't think you should be taking guns into situations like that unless you intend to use them, and the boys were 100% unarmed, they had nothing but swimsuits. I don't think it would be legal to shoot them, even in the US? Yet bring a gun into the situation even for defence, and now it's a much more serious situation for all involved.

Now, this might have been a case where a safely stored weapon, with a possible warning shot into the water might have proved useful. I dunno.

In any case, it still never compelled me to own a gun.

See I'm a californian. I have no instinct to protect property outside my home, or "chase anyone down"...Not worth it to me.

I've never been in a fistfight either, not to say I haven't been threatened...

I've pointed the ouchy end of a shotgun at a man looking in my living room window, though. My wife was up feeding our first kid, and woke me to tell me that a man was watching her.

I stood in our living room, finger on the trigger, shell in the chamber, waiting to see what he was going to do. (My house is always darker than my porch. it keeps me in the shadows, and them in the light, he was clearly not someone that should have been there like a relative, etc...)

At that point it stil wasn't in my right to shoot him...and I had the frame of thought to understand that at the time.

I think this temperment makes me the ideal gun owner. Instinctive, effective de-escalator of sticky situations, but ready and willing to end a threat that is clearly demonstrated.

:)

[Klierslc]

There's the rub. It has nothing to do with the State. I don't feel the need to carry around a useless tool for an eventuality that isn't going to happen. I don't carry around a operating system install disk when I'm at the race track.

I honestly hope that the "eventuality" doesn't happen to you. But it WILL happen to somebody. You have no control over others and you don't live on a deserted island. Saying that it will never happen to you is simply sticking your head in the sand.


I've got another one. When I was 14, my brother, a younger neighbor and I camped on the small island in front of my parent's cottage without adults. In the middle of the night, some teenagers, drunk, swam across the lake and ended up on my parent's dock. They were being loud, and started talking about breaking into the cottage and doing unmentionable things. My father (who is fairly imposing) went outside and told them to leave, and they headed out back across the water, towards the island. My father went over to the neighbors and woke him and his older son, all 3 jumped in a boat and headed to the island. The older son watched over us, armed with a shovel, while my father and neighbor confronted the 3 teenagers who were on the island. I fight ensued, one of them knocked over the neighbor, but my dad subdued the other 2. We all got back to the cottage safely. It took the police 30 minutes to get there.

It might be a pro-gun story, but what really would you have done. Just up and shot 3 teenagers for being drunk and on your dock? They were 100% unarmed. Would you have ventured onto the unlit island with a weapon? One of them bested the neighbor, now it's a gunfight.

I don't think you should be taking guns into situations like that unless you intend to use them, and the boys were 100% unarmed, they had nothing but swimsuits. I don't think it would be legal to shoot them, even in the US? Yet bring a gun into the situation even for defence, and now it's a much more serious situation for all involved.

Now, this might have been a case where a safely stored weapon, with a possible warning shot into the water might have proved useful. I dunno.

In any case, it still never compelled me to own a gun.


Your Father shouldn't have let them leave. He knew that you kids were out there and by merely asking them to leave, he put you, himself and the neighbor in harm's way. He should have greeted them with a shotgun and made them sit and stay until the police arrived.

Also, failing in that course, he could have taken a shotgun to the island. Drunks sober up fast when confronted with imminent death. I would have also carried a flashlight to the "unlit island"

I understand the want to fire warning shots, but personally do not believe in using them.

Deadly force is called deadly for a reason. If it is serious enough to use deadly force, it is serious enough to kill. A warning shot will get you an attempted murder charge in some places....

Also, if you fire a warning shot, you have just wasted one round. That could be one enemy (or two depending on how talented you are) that is neutralized--instead you are just short on ammo....

Please forgive the military references, being a Marine amplifies my views at times....

[R_Lefebvre]

As far as data goes, do have anything better?


How about just simple homicide rate?

Amongst industrialized nations, the numbers should be reliable because the occurance is a yes/no thing, and reporting should be near 100%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homicide_rate

USA: 5.4
Canada: 1.8
Australia: 1.2
UK: 2.0
Germany 0.9
Japan 0.4

Etc. etc.

The only "G20" nation on the list higher than the US that I can see are Brazil, Russia, Turkey and Mexico.

[baca327]

You're right, it is a horrible thought. But at the same time, I WILL NOT live my life in fear. I roamed the woods freely when I was a kid. My children will do the same. We're talking about 2-3 deaths per year. 90 per year are killed by lightning. 30,000+ or whatever are killed in traffic accidents.

What are the societal costs associated with kids being sheltered in their living rooms in front of the XBOX? Kids growing up with no independence, no self confidence, etc.

I struggle with this question, as we have a nice play structure in the back yard, but there are also coyotes in the bush behind. Is my boy to never be able to play independently? When I grew up, me and my friends spent every sunny weekend playing in the creek, alone, with no parental involvement other than "Pack a lunch" and "be home for dinner".

Are we really going to stop our kids from doing that, because of the risk of 2-3 deaths per year? The reality is, they're at greater risk being driven to soccer practice. And probably at great risk of being struck by lighting on the field. (that happened recently around here, despite the organizers following the 30/30 rules).

I haven't read it yet myself, but will be buying the book "Last Child In The Woods". You might find it interesting too.

And what might I do? Yes, knife, sticks, stones... whatever it takes. I've shot a handgun at 75 feet. Took about 1 minute to take 13 shots, and 12 hit the UNMOVING target. No way I'd ever consider shooting in the direction of a child.

I have never been afraid of coyotes or smaller animals nor my children. I have never been afraid of other larger predators and its not the firearm that does that. I am an avid hunter and have seen many animals. It is the understanding of the animals and respecting them. It seems as though debating on the sheltering of children is once again veering from the OP. This video is of a teenager (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWqQZOyd84o). I'm sorry but if you shoot that slow and let your children get 75 feet away from you before you take a shot you need to practice and learn how to use that handgun. If you wanna be one of those 2-3 people that you speak of be my guest. It is ALWAYS better to be proactive instead of reactive. Have you practice with your sticks and stones? I know I cant hit a damn thing at 25 feet throwing a rock, but have roughly a 6 inch group in speed drills with a .40. See how long it takes you to throw 13 rocks at a target 75 feet away tell me if you hit the target more than once.

[R_Lefebvre]

In this case, the intruders left, threat was gone. No force needed.
Now with your Dad and neighbor following them ,they bacame the aggressors. At that point , they would be considered , by law, to be in the wrong.
It's all about knowing when and how to use a firearm. No threat, no need. But I would rather ibeing able to have one in case the need arose.

Hang on a sec. They did not "follow them" to press some sort of attack. They went to the island to get us off.


I think this temperment makes me the ideal gun owner. Instinctive, effective de-escalator of sticky situations, but ready and willing to end a threat that is clearly demonstrated.


I would agree. I wouldn't have any problem camping with you, with your gun. In fact, I would be comforted by it. You sound reasonable.

Some others definitely seem to have a "shoot first, ask questions later" mentality that scares the crap out of me.


I understand the want to fire warning shots, but personally do not believe in using them.

Deadly force is called deadly for a reason. If it is serious enough to use deadly force, it is serious enough to kill. A warning shot will get you an attempted murder charge in some places....


So we're camping nearby, and I walk up to your campfire holding a knife which I used to cut the raspberry pie I'm about to offer you, and you shoot me dead. :Wow1:


I would have also carried a flashlight to the "unlit island"


Of course they brought flashlights. Flashlights are near useless in dense brush.

[Root Moose]

I honestly hope that the "eventuality" doesn't happen to you. But it WILL happen to somebody. You have no control over others and you don't live on a deserted island. Saying that it will never happen to you is simply sticking your head in the sand.

I disagree.

Quite honestly, I'm more likely to be hit by a meteorite or struck by lightning up here in the bush.

[R_Lefebvre]

This video is of a teenager (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWqQZOyd84o). I'm sorry but if you shoot that slow and let your children get 75 feet away from you before you take a shot you need to practice and learn how to use that handgun. If you wanna be one of those 2-3 people that you speak of be my guest. It is ALWAYS better to be proactive instead of reactive. Have you practice with your sticks and stones? I know I cant hit a damn thing at 25 feet throwing a rock, but have roughly a 6 inch group in speed drills with a .40. See how long it takes you to throw 13 rocks at a target 75 feet away tell me if you hit the target more than once.

That target was 21 feet away. Not 75. Let's see that excercise at 75 feet and see how fast he shoots, and/or how often he hits. That was ~1 minute, to put 12 of 13 shots on mass, for a beginner with less than 100 shots ever. Yet, I was told by a rangemaster that I was better than many LEO's. Scary.

And that guy was not "unprepared". He was standing there, looking at a target, with his safety glasses on.

As for my children being 75 feet away... Read my other post. I will not live in fear, nor my family. My kids are likely to be 75 feet away from me to start with. Do you shackle your children to yourself? Is that what freedom is all about?

[baca327]

So we're camping nearby, and I walk up to your campfire holding a knife which I used to cut the raspberry pie I'm about to offer you, and you shoot me dead. :Wow1:.

Maybe my marine mentality but I would not fire a warning shot at a human threat either. Would you rather have a warning shot. I would asses the threat get between you and my family a calm assertive manner and ask your business if you held that knife in a threating manner and kept moving toward me and not standing there like Martha Stewart then I would make you aware I was carrying by putting a hand on the grip and ask you to leave if you kept coming I would command you to stop and if you didn't then yes I would shoot you dead...

[DurangoSteve]

I've backpacked, rafted and car camped across the Western U.S. for several decades and have never felt compelled to carry a gun. That said, there are many "weapons" at my disposal in camp... first and foremost, my brain.

[R_Lefebvre]

http://www.amazon.ca/Risk-Things-Shouldnt-Ourselves-Greater/dp/0771032595/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268754818&sr=1-3


In the tradition of Malcolm Gladwell, Gardner explores a new way of thinking about the decisions we make.

We are the safest and healthiest human beings who ever lived, and yet irrational fear is growing, with deadly consequences — such as the 1,595 Americans killed when they made the mistake of switching from planes to cars after September 11. In part, this irrationality is caused by those — politicians, activists, and the media — who promote fear for their own gain. Culture also matters. But a more fundamental cause is human psychology.

Working with risk science pioneer Paul Slovic, author Dan Gardner sets out to explain in a compulsively readable fashion just what that statement above means as to how we make decisions and run our lives. We learn that the brain has not one but two systems to analyze risk. One is primitive, unconscious, and intuitive. The other is conscious and rational. The two systems often agree, but occasionally they come to very different conclusions. When that happens, we can find ourselves worrying about what the statistics tell us is a trivial threat — terrorism, child abduction, cancer caused by chemical pollution — or shrugging off serious risks like obesity and smoking.

Gladwell told us about “the black box” of our brains; Gardner takes us inside, helping us to understand how to deconstruct the information we’re bombarded with and respond more logically and adaptively to our world. Risk is cutting-edge reading.

[baca327]

That target was 21 feet away. Not 75. Let's see that excercise at 75 feet and see how fast he shoots, and/or how often he hits. That was ~1 minute, to put 12 of 13 shots on mass, for a beginner with less than 100 shots ever. Yet, I was told by a rangemaster that I was better than many LEO's. Scary.

And that guy was not "unprepared". He was standing there, looking at a target, with his safety glasses on.

As for my children being 75 feet away... Read my other post. I will not live in fear, nor my family. My kids are likely to be 75 feet away from me to start with. Do you shackle your children to yourself? Is that what freedom is all about?

I will see you long before your 21 ft away. If you shoot a rapid fire at 75 my friend you need to learn HOW to USE that handgun not just how to shoot it. A single well aimed shot is all that is needed especially with a .40 or .45. I agree with you, you should not carry a pistol. It is people like that with no experience just a pistol taking pop shots that shoot first ask questions later. It is proactive gun owners that know how to use and react. Any pistol class I have ever been to has always emphasized if you pull your pistol you will go to jail if you shoot you will go to jail its just a matter of if you are willing to go to jail for those actions and yes my family is always worth going to jail for their safety. Also no shackle they are just within sight considering their age.

[xcmountain80]

Ok, while this post reached that point some time ago, I feel it time that it is locked, shut or whatever happens when the two sides are dug in and no compromise is taking place.

A

[BIGdaddy]

I disagree.

Quite honestly, I'm more likely to be hit by a meteorite or struck by lightning up here in the bush.

Funny, Chris, having talked online with you for a while now, I would have assumed you had already been hit by lightning?

interesting.

:D

[Root Moose]

funny, chris, having talked online with you for a while now, i would have assumed you had already been hit by lightning?

Interesting.

:d

lol!

[BIGdaddy]

I've backpacked, rafted and car camped across the Western U.S. for several decades and have never felt compelled to carry a gun. That said, there are many "weapons" at my disposal in camp... first and foremost, my brain.

yay! good post. very important point.

And to those e-badgering Rob. cool it, guys. He's just bringing up different
ways to think about something.

He's put a lot of thought into being a gun owner, clearly, and is a smart dude. It's a mistake to take his conjecture and line of thinking as a personal attack.

I disagree with him on occasion, but I'd really like to keep the discussion respectful, especially in regards those who are deciding on gun ownership or have decided not to carry.

Their input is as important to keeping the Expo well-rounded as those of us who choose to carry. Nothing stupid about the reasoning they bring to the table. On the contrary, I've been impressed by the articulate answers to somewhat offensive/questioning posts by some of the gun-toters thus far.

play nice, ladies...

Cheers,
Brian

[Maximus Ram]

Hang on a sec. They did not "follow them" to press some sort of attack. They went to the island to get us off.



So we're camping nearby, and I walk up to your campfire holding a knife which I used to cut the raspberry pie I'm about to offer you, and you shoot me dead. :Wow1:



Of course they brought flashlights. Flashlights are near useless in dense brush.

Frome reading the scenerio, I read that they swam off of the island after being confronted by your Father.
So they swam from 1 island to another island to the island you were on ?
If that is the case and they were threatening you, then yes they (Father & neighbor) had a right to confront and engage.

[baca327]

Their input is as important to keeping the Expo well-rounded as those of us who choose to carry.


Agreed , I just pray for everyone's safety those carrying and those not.

[Maximus Ram]

And to those e-badgering Rob. cool it, guys. He's just bringing up different
ways to think about something.

He's put a lot of thought into being a gun owner, clearly, and is a smart dude. It's a mistake to take his conjecture and line of thinking as a personal attack.

I disagree with him on occasion, but I'd really like to keep the discussion respectful, especially to those who are deciding on gun ownership or have decided not to carry.

Their input is as important to keeping the Expo well-rounded as those of us who choose to carry.

Cheers,
Brian

Brian, not "e-badgering" Rob, just answering remarks posted from being quoted. My original post quoted noone, just my thoughts on the topic .
I believe everyone has the right to make their own choices, I choose to own firearms, he may choose not to, no harm -no fowl, all is good.

[Rbertalotto]

When I was 14


The world was a MUCH different place when you were 14!

Today, those same teenagers (if they weren't swimming) just might be armed with illegal firearms........

"Don't bring a shovel to a gunfight....."

[91runner]

Maybe my marine mentality but I would not fire a warning shot at a human threat either. Would you rather have a warning shot. I would asses the threat get between you and my family a calm assertive manner and ask your business if you held that knife in a threating manner and kept moving toward me and not standing there like Martha Stewart then I would make you aware I was carrying by putting a hand on the grip and ask you to leave if you kept coming I would command you to stop and if you didn't then yes I would shoot you dead...

a well aimed warning shot deescalated several tense situations for my platoon in Iraq that could of swung either way. So warning shots do hve their place however I do not agree with the shoot to wound mentality, if I feel the need to shoot a target I am shooting to kill. You can compare statistics between the U.S. And other nations all day long but its apples to oranges. The legal alcohol drinking age is lower pretty much everywhere else but I'm sure these countries also have lower alcohol related incidents. I would be interested in US versus Swiss data as (unless this has changed in the last few years) you only need a permit there to buy antiaircraft and antitank munitions and weapons. Every household in Switzerland with military age residents has their military issued weapon in it and a much lower violent crime rate.

[R_Lefebvre]

And to those e-badgering Rob. cool it, guys. He's just bringing up different
ways to think about something.


It's cool. Nothing posted here has been remotely close to what happens in the Land Rover forum. ;)


Frome reading the scenerio, I read that they swam off of the island after being confronted by your Father.
So they swam from 1 island to another island to the island you were on ?
If that is the case and they were threatening you, then yes they (Father & neighbor) had a right to confront and engage

Cottage is on the shore of a lake. We were camping on an island in the middle of the lake. Teenagers swam from one side of the lake to the other. When shoo'd off the dock, they swam in the direction of the island, which is when pitchforks and torches were grabbed. ;)


The world was a MUCH different place when you were 14!

Today, those same teenagers (if they weren't swimming) just might be armed with illegal firearms........

"Don't bring a shovel to a gunfight....."


You're right! It's much safer now. Crime rates are down. Communications with authorities are improved. Transportation systems are better... (SAR, etc.)

It's a wonder the teens swam across the lake at all, it was about 1/2 mile, they surely wouldn't have made it carrying a 10lb anchor.

[baca327]

a well aimed warning shot deescalated several tense situations for my platoon in Iraq that could of swung either way. So warning shots do hve their place however I do not agree with the shoot to wound mentality, if I feel the need to shoot a target I am shooting to kill. You can compare statistics between the U.S. And other nations all day long but its apples to oranges. The legal alcohol drinking age is lower pretty much everywhere else but I'm sure these countries also have lower alcohol related incidents. I would be interested in US versus Swiss data as (unless this has changed in the last few years) you only need a permit there to buy antiaircraft and antitank munitions and weapons. Every household in Switzerland with military age residents has their military issued weapon in it and a much lower violent crime rate.

Agreed they have their place, but not in a unlit camp ground with tents and other campers around. I also never said anything about shooting to wound, only to kill.

[R_Lefebvre]

a well aimed warning shot deescalated several tense situations for my platoon in Iraq that could of swung either way. So warning shots do hve their place however I do not agree with the shoot to wound mentality, if I feel the need to shoot a target I am shooting to kill. You can compare statistics between the U.S. And other nations all day long but its apples to oranges. The legal alcohol drinking age is lower pretty much everywhere else but I'm sure these countries also have lower alcohol related incidents. I would be interested in US versus Swiss data as (unless this has changed in the last few years) you only need a permit there to buy antiaircraft and antitank munitions and weapons. Every household in Switzerland with military age residents has their military issued weapon in it and a much lower violent crime rate.

Switzerland is 2.26. Still half that of the US. But they have so many guns!

BTW, Canadians have lots of guns too. 4 people per gun, compared to 1.5 people per gun in the US. However, only 5.4% of Canadians are gun owners compared to 36.5% in the US. It appears that the minority of gun owners in Canada own on average many more guns than those in the US!

Yet the homicide rate is so low.

Why?

This thread is becoming a screenplay for Bowling for Columbine!

Fear, people. Fear.

[R_Lefebvre]

Well... fear and ... gun control laws.

Switzerland has an upper estimate of 3 million guns in Switzerland, 740,000 of which are assault rifles or military pistols, amongst a population of 7.2 Million. So they have about 2.4 people per gun. More importantly however, I believe the guns are more evenly spread. Practically every male in the country has served in the militia, and brought his service weapon home.

But, the gun transport rules sound pretty similar to in Canada:


Guns may be transported in public as long as an appropriate justification is present. This means to transport a gun in public, the following requirements apply:

The ammunition must be separated from the gun, no ammunition in a magazine.
The transport has to be direct, ie:
For courses or exercises hosted by marksmanship, hunting or military organisations,
To an army warehouse and back,
To and from a holder of a valid arms trade permit,
To and from a specific event, e.g. gun shows.

So, people don't wander around armed as much. Though apparently this isn't unusual:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/53/Caroline-Migros-p1000507.jpg/450px-Caroline-Migros-p1000507.jpg

[Maximus Ram]

This thread is becoming a screenplay for Bowling for Columbine!

Fear, people. Fear.

Rob, please...how can you make a comparison of kids being bullied and taking revenge in a horrif manner to a law abiding responsible firearms owner being prepared for a possible survival situation in the outdoors ?
It's not fear as to why I choose to posses a firearm when I /We camp...It's for self preservation. No law enforcement close enough if the situation should arrive.

[Maximus Ram]

Now that picture is just crazy....where is that at, Rob ? I would take a second and third glace if I saw someone lugging a Smi-Automatic Sporting Arm around like that. :coffeedrink:

[BIGdaddy]

Brian, not "e-badgering" Rob, just answering remarks posted from being quoted. My original post quoted noone, just my thoughts on the topic .
I believe everyone has the right to make their own choices, I choose to own firearms, he may choose not to, no harm -no fowl, all is good.


nah, not singling anyone out, I just like this discussion for the benefit of the original poster, and don't want to see it axed...

and Rob's good at starting s$%^.......HAHAHAHA...j/k, Rob.

:) all good, bradda Ram.

[TACODOC]

That's great and all, but will that hold up in a court of law when I have to explain to the jury why I just shot and killed 2 mutants who have (or had) small primitive brains with diminished "Cognitive capacities"?

Don't care. Lifa and limb of family over some dirtbags "rights" or a courts interpretation of said rights after the fact.

[TACODOC]

For the places I go most often, I'm not sure many crack heads would be willing to follow, but hey, if a crack head wants to follow me on foot or in a canoe for days on end into the wilderness to do me harm, slap me silly and call me snookered but it's a chance I'm willing to take.

Now THAT is funny! :elkgrin:

Way to put it into perspective! :coffeedrink:

[Hilldweller]

BTW, Canadians have lots of guns too. 4 people per gun, compared to 1.5 people per gun in the US. However, only 5.4% of Canadians are gun owners compared to 36.5% in the US. It appears that the minority of gun owners in Canada own on average many more guns than those in the US!

Fear, people. Fear.You know, we started carrying guns to protect us from the imminent threat of invasion from Canada...
...you guys started it.

:elkgrin:

[baca327]

Sorry I had to...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pcVDmX4ho4

[Klierslc]

I disagree.

Quite honestly, I'm more likely to be hit by a meteorite or struck by lightning up here in the bush.

You are missing the point. Fact: Crime happens to some people. Fact: you are a person. Therefore, Crime CAN happen to you. Basic logic folks. It doesn't mean that it will happen, simply that it can happen.


Maybe my marine mentality but I would not fire a warning shot at a human threat either. Would you rather have a warning shot. I would asses the threat get between you and my family a calm assertive manner and ask your business if you held that knife in a threating manner and kept moving toward me and not standing there like Martha Stewart then I would make you aware I was carrying by putting a hand on the grip and ask you to leave if you kept coming I would command you to stop and if you didn't then yes I would shoot you dead...

Exactly,

You walking into my campsite with a "bloody" knife is not a threat to me. If you advance in a threatening manner, then I will give you a verbal warning. If you do not comply I will present my weapon. If you still don't comply I will happily rid the world of a violent criminal. Escalation of Force is at times misunderstood. I don't want to shoot you, so I attempt other things to prevent me from having to shoot you. Contrary to the name, this is actually de-escalation when it works. If it doesn't then the offender has just upped the ante--not me.

If I walked into your campsite with a knife, would you turn and run, or politely ask me to carry on my murdering business elsewhere?

If I came at one of your kids, would you not react to protect them? The obvious answer is that you would absolutely protect them. Why would you want to get into a knife fight with me when you could:

A: present your weapon and avert physical harm to everyone
B: Shoot me and eliminate all risk of me hurting you, your wife or your kids

Seriously, I have made quite a few points that have gone unanswered here. If you were in camp and I drove up and attacked one of your kids, what would you do?

If your answer is protect them by fighting back, then why wouldn't you equip yourself to do so in the most effective way possible?

If your answer is to stand by calmly and expect everyone to get along after the initial misunderstanding, then I fear my writing has been in vain....

[Lost Canadian]

You know, we started carrying guns to protect us from the imminent threat of invasion from Canada...
...you guys started it.

:elkgrin:
Bull, you guys started it by trying to invade our land in 1812, of course just like a well spirited hockey game we sent you packing. JK:victory:

[Fireman78]

sorry i had to...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pcvdmx4ho4

thank you.. that was a good example of trying to de-escalate, it just didn't work.. too bad for the bad guy

[SunTzuNephew]

[Terminator voice]We'll be back.....[/Terminator voice]

I for one welcome the new additions to the United States of America: Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Yukon, Nunavut and Inuvik (our territories are overseas).

Although designing a flag with 57 stars might be tough....Hmm, maybe we'll take PEI, too. It's nice there, except for the mud.

[Root Moose]

You are missing the point. Fact: Crime happens to some people. Fact: you are a person. Therefore, Crime CAN happen to you. Basic logic folks. It doesn't mean that it will happen, simply that it can happen.

Car accidents with head injuries can happen too. Are you going to start wearing a helmet in your car? You really should!

Logic is one thing and statistics is another. The ability to make choices based on the two keeps us from feeling the need to wear body armour in the shower.

[Klierslc]

Another facet to gun ownership that you may not understand is the ability to not employ your weapon. If three armed men bust into my office and point their weapons at me, I am not going to reach for my .380 and go down in a blaze of glory. I will comply with what they want until I can find an advantage and exploit it.

It does my loved ones no good to get killed foolishly, so you have to be mentally prepared to make that decision. React or wait. Just because I have a gun doesn't mean I will use it. If I need to use it it will be at the moment of greatest advantage.

[SunTzuNephew]

Another facet to gun ownership that you may not understand is the ability to not employ your weapon. If three armed men bust into my office and point their weapons at me, I am not going to reach for my .380 and go down in a blaze of glory. I will comply with what they want until I can find an advantage and exploit it.

It does my loved ones no good to get killed foolishly, so you have to be mentally prepared to make that decision. React or wait. Just because I have a gun doesn't mean I will use it. If I need to use it it will be at the moment of greatest advantage.

Thats true, but on the other hand not having the ability to defend yourself is an even worse situation.

[Klierslc]

Car accidents with head injuries can happen too. Are you going to start wearing a helmet in your car? You really should!

Logic is one thing and statistics is another. The ability to make choices based on the two keeps us from feeling the need to wear body armour in the shower.

Point taken, but your analogy falls short. Wearing a helmet in a car increases the risk of accidents due to limiting the driver's field of vision---I digress---The key difference is the ability to employ the helmet in the event of a crash. If you were quick enough to recognize that you were about to crash, grab the helmet, put it on and fasten it--Then I absolutely think it is a good idea. Sadly, that is not the case with a helmet in a car. It is the case with discreet or concealed firearms carry. You only use it when you need it .

The equivalent to your analogy would be pointing a weapon at everyone you meet. Sure, you probably won't get mugged, but that doesn't justify doing it.

[john101477]

Thats true, but on the other hand not having the ability to defend yourself is an even worse situation.

Just like the boy scouts, always be prepared. This includes being prepared to defend yourself.

[Klierslc]

Thats true, but on the other hand not having the ability to defend yourself is an even worse situation.

I think that is the same hand......

I have the ability to defend myself; it is up to me to determine how and when to use that ability...

[R_Lefebvre]

Rob, please...how can you make a comparison of kids being bullied and taking revenge in a horrif manner to a law abiding responsible firearms owner being prepared for a possible survival situation in the outdoors ?


I'm not! Have you watched the movie? From the previous thread where it was brought up, it seems most pro-gun Americans have not. Never gave it a chance. Watch the movie with an open mind, and you'll get where I'm coming from.


Now that picture is just crazy....where is that at, Rob ?

Yeah I know. It's from Wikipedia, the page about gun politics in Switzerland.


Don't care. Lifa and limb of family over some dirtbags "rights" or a courts interpretation of said rights after the fact.

I guess I'm just not sure how me being in jail for killing somebody who may or may not have done us harm, is a better outcome? I have life insurance. I don't have jail insurance. Do they even sell that?


You are missing the point. Fact: Crime happens to some people. Fact: you are a person. Therefore, Crime CAN happen to you. Basic logic folks. It doesn't mean that it will happen, simply that it can happen.


No, you're missing the point. We choose not to worry ourselves over things that are so ASTRONOMICALLY improbable. I have a greater chance of dying in a plane crash in Algonquin Park than I have of being murdered there. As far as my research shows, nobody has EVER been murdered in Algonquin Park in it's 120 year history. Yet several planes have gone down there.

Do you:

Smoke
Drink more than 2 drinks/week
Overweight
Get less than 3 hours of excercise per week
Driving a car older than ~2000 MY (when there was a revolution in car safety)

All of these things are MUCH more likely to harm you, than walking around unarmed. Yet most people do them daily, without thinking. Yet these are all things that could be prevented easily. So many people do one or more of these things, but they say "Oh, I've gotta carry a gun for protection."


If I walked into your campsite with a knife, would you turn and run, or politely ask me to carry on my murdering business elsewhere?


I assume this is directed at me.

I would draw my own. Since I'm now decided to get bear spray, me or my wife would draw it too. If I was alone, I would run. Good luck catching me. Seriously.


If I came at one of your kids, would you not react to protect them? The obvious answer is that you would absolutely protect them. Why would you want to get into a knife fight with me when you could:

A: present your weapon and avert physical harm to everyone
B: Shoot me and eliminate all risk of me hurting you, your wife or your kids


C: Present my non-firearm weapon, and avert physical harm to everyone.

Why the assumption that any crazy guy is going to attack, and you're gonna lose? And if you have a gun, everything will turn out sunshine and roses.

Theives and rapists, generally don't want to be murderers, and will only do so if pressed.

You know... it's really hard to answer your question. Yeah, if I don't have a gun, my options are limited. There's going to be melee. I might lose.

But I don't worry about it. Why? I have better things to worry about. Every day, I could worry that it's much more likely, that somehow, my own gun could be used against me or mine. Whether by accident, theft, or whatever.

[Root Moose]

The great thing about "what ifs" is that they can be spun into any direction you want.

[baca327]

a few examples
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1evT61Qp_Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ATkSHtSVQE&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS2CnfF7pEk&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGC_lcp-qKI&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfQc8-NyXZw&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NJQK2BscIg

[Flounder]

a few examples
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1evT61Qp_Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ATkSHtSVQE&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KS2CnfF7pEk&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGC_lcp-qKI&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfQc8-NyXZw&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NJQK2BscIg
Those are interesting clips and I'm not devaluing them but... If someone were to make a news clip of just me it would start off something like, "Arizona man spends past 35 years traveling the backcountry and the far reaches of Asia, Africa, Europe, Alaska and beyond and survives with bulging photo album and brain full of fond memories."

[baca327]

Those are interesting clips and I'm not devaluing them but... If someone were to make a news clip of just me it would start off something like, "Arizona man spends past 35 years traveling the backcountry and the far reaches of Asia, Africa, Europe, Alaska and beyond and survives with bulging photo album and brain full of fond memories."
I am sure that 67 year old man probably never fired a shot in self defense unless maybe a veteran but probably never defending his home. The day before his may have said "Former Vietnam veteran spends past 50 years exploring backcountry". The thing is you just dont know someone could carry their whole lives and never use it but you never know what will happen or who it will happen too. All those people are all differnet from pregnant women to senior citizens.

[R_Lefebvre]

Exactly, I'm going to fire up the "Way Back Machine" and go back to page 5 of this thread.


I tried to search for news stories on all the millions of people who didn't die during their camping trips, but couldn't find any.

http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=campers+did...ie+during+trip

See, nothing.


I guess we're at an impasse here.

Some live in fear, and carry a gun for protection, and deride the unarmed with questions about how they will defend themselves. To the others, they're unconcerned with the question of how to defend themselves, they're not afraid of the improbable.

Both are most likely to die by natural causes.

I mean, geez... I race a motorcycle. Really, is the astronomical chance of being assulted worth worrying about? Wouldn't it make much more sense to stop racing motorcycles? Wouldn't that be better for my family?

What I did do, due to my father's medical history, I got a colonoscopy at 30, and started excercising regularly. I've lost weight, blood pressure is 120/60, resting heart rate is 50 bpm, and I can run uphill 5 miles in 30 minutes without stopping.

That's what *I* do to protect my family.

[Klierslc]

No, you're missing the point. We choose not to worry ourselves over things that are so ASTRONOMICALLY improbable. I have a greater chance of dying in a plane crash in Algonquin Park than I have of being murdered there. As far as my research shows, nobody has EVER been murdered in Algonquin Park in it's 120 year history. Yet several planes have gone down there.

Do you:

Smoke
Drink more than 2 drinks/week
Overweight
Get less than 3 hours of excercise per week
Driving a car older than ~2000 MY (when there was a revolution in car safety)

All of these things are MUCH more likely to harm you, than walking around unarmed. Yet most people do them daily, without thinking. Yet these are all things that could be prevented easily. So many people do one or more of these things, but they say "Oh, I've gotta carry a gun for protection."



I assume this is directed at me.

I would draw my own. Since I'm now decided to get bear spray, me or my wife would draw it too. If I was alone, I would run. Good luck catching me. Seriously.



C: Present my non-firearm weapon, and avert physical harm to everyone.

Why the assumption that any crazy guy is going to attack, and you're gonna lose? And if you have a gun, everything will turn out sunshine and roses.

Theives and rapists, generally don't want to be murderers, and will only do so if pressed.

You know... it's really hard to answer your question. Yeah, if I don't have a gun, my options are limited. There's going to be melee. I might lose.

But I don't worry about it. Why? I have better things to worry about. Every day, I could worry that it's much more likely, that somehow, my own gun could be used against me or mine. Whether by accident, theft, or whatever.

If the only place you camp is a "secure" location, then fine, but I would wager that that is not the case.... Based on my research, nobody has ever broken into my home. Does that mean that it couldn't happen?

FYI, I don't do any of the listed activities except drive the Cruiser.....Based on my own experience and crash pictures over on Mud, It don't think it is lacking in the safety Dept. I haven't driven the T100 in three years.

I won't ridicule you for choosing the bear spray. It is a viable defensive alternative. Like everything else, it has its limitations as far as wind, multiple assailants, and range, but it is not a bad choice.

How does choice C avert harm to everyone? Unless you bear spray somebody and then tie them up, any confrontation will result in physical harm. If you don't detain the assailant, they will come back to get revenge for you spraying them....

I don't think that every crazy guy will attack, but if I don't assume that they will, I am leaving myself open for attack. As mentioned earlier in the thread, predatory humans are like other predators, they prey on the weak, easy targets. Make yourself a hard target and they will move along. "Be polite to everyone you meet but have a plan to kill them"

I don't worry about it either. I have the means to deal with it close at hand. Pint didn't worry about it before. Then it happened to him. Now that he has a weapon, he still doesn't have to worry. It really comes down to responsible ownership and responsible conduct. If conduct yourself responsibly, most of your concerns become non issues.


One other thing, after discounting the statistical possibility of an attack are you seriously going to say that you don't want a gun due to the fact that it could be used against you? If the odds are so against you getting attacked anyway, why is a follow on variable even a consideration?

[baca327]

Some live in fear, and carry a gun for protection, and deride the unarmed with questions about how they will defend themselves. To the others, they're unconcerned with the question of how to defend themselves, they're not afraid of the improbable.

That's what *I* do to protect my family.

It is not fear my friend it is logic. I pray that you never become a news headline and that you never regret not owning and learning to use one. I and many others like to have that option if needed, some may be fearful but I like many others are not. Like others have said before a firearm is not always needed resolve a situation matter of fact 95% can be resolved without. I agree you are very brave to leave your life and life of those that depend on you to probability and statistics.....

[Hilldweller]

Bull, you guys started it by trying to invade our land in 1812, of course just like a well spirited hockey game we sent you packing. JK:victory:
I was thinking of the French & Indian War (Guerre de Sept Ans); we're still cranky about that one...

[baca327]

What I did do, due to my father's medical history, I got a colonoscopy at 30, and started excercising regularly. I've lost weight, blood pressure is 120/60, resting heart rate is 50 bpm, and I can run uphill 5 miles in 30 minutes without stopping.

I run 3 miles and lift weights every morning. Does that make me faster than a speeding bullet nope, and no way do I ever wanna try...

[R_Lefebvre]

One other thing, after discounting the statistical possibility of an attack are you seriously going to say that you don't want a gun due to the fact that it could be used against you? If the odds are so against you getting attacked anyway, why is a follow on variable even a consideration?


Because, it seems to me from my research, that the chance of my own gun harming me or my own, is higher than the probability of me ever being assaulted. The very things needed to render the gun safe and legal, also limit it's usefulness. As I said before:

"Excuse Mr. Badguy, can you please wait while I unlock and load my gun?"


I don't worry about it either. I have the means to deal with it close at hand. Pint didn't worry about it before. Then it happened to him.

But nothing actually happened to him. We're only guessing at what might have happened if the other truck hadn't shown up. We're only guessing at what might have happened had he had a gun.


Based on my research, nobody has ever broken into my home. Does that mean that it couldn't happen?


Based on my research, no planes have ever crashed into my home. Does that mean it couldn't happen?

Should I live in a bunker? Where do you draw the line on defending yourself against the improbably? I'm sure you'll answer "Somewhere between carrying a gun, and living in a bunker." But the reality is, every day, you take greater chances than walking around unarmed.


It is not fear my friend it is logic.

It's not logical to fear the improbable!

[baca327]

I'm done. If you dont carry thats fine its your choice if you do thats fine and thats also your choice. If you dont and never have learned to use a firearm dont be afraid to try cause someone says its a bad idea, classes are recommended. Just remember the bad guys dont care how big you are what kinda shape your all they care about is there own preservation and if that means your life that is cost they are willing to take. I have only stated the reasons I carry a firearm and I hope they are helpful.

[Fireman78]

I run 3 miles and lift weights every morning. Does that make me faster than a speeding bullet nope, and no way do I ever wanna try...



"I play real sports, I'm not tryin' to be the best at exercisizing"

-- Kenny Powers

[Klierslc]

I guess we're at an impasse here.

Some live in fear, and carry a gun for protection, and deride the unarmed with questions about how they will defend themselves. To the others, they're unconcerned with the question of how to defend themselves, they're not afraid of the improbable.

Both are most likely to die by natural causes.

I mean, geez... I race a motorcycle. Really, is the astronomical chance of being assulted worth worrying about? Wouldn't it make much more sense to stop racing motorcycles? Wouldn't that be better for my family?

What I did do, due to my father's medical history, I got a colonoscopy at 30, and started excercising regularly. I've lost weight, blood pressure is 120/60, resting heart rate is 50 bpm, and I can run uphill 5 miles in 30 minutes without stopping.

That's what *I* do to protect my family.

You may not have been reading what some folks are posting. It has nothing to do with fear. I have not attempted to deride you and if I have done so I apologize. I do try to make people think about how simply having a gun around can benefit them. I am not afraid of the improbable, but I carry tools for the "just in case" Ie. fire extinguisher, spare tire, insurance, etc. Why guns are such a big issue, I may never know. They are simply a tool.

Yes--Quitting motorcycle racing would probably be a smart choice. My dad made that choice when my oldest brother was born. As a result, I have had the good fortune to be able to start a family and have my dad around if I needed advice. My kids know their Grandfather and love him dearly. In my opinion, you should do the things that you love, but if those things have an inordinate risk associated with them, it is selfish to continue. I want my kids to be able to have their Dad around for advice. I have only really gotten to know my dad on a personal level in the last five years. I want my grandkids to have a grandfather to spoil them. Any choice that I make that makes that outcome less likely bears careful consideration before proceeding. You can't live life in fear, but you can mitigate the chances of some extraneous activity ruining your family's lives....

[Fireman78]

[QUOTE=Klierslc;587003] If three armed men bust into my office and point their weapons at me, I am not going to reach for my .380 and go down in a blaze of glory. QUOTE]


Kinda hard to go down in a blaze of glory with a .380 . Might try a .45. :sombrero:

[Maximus Ram]

Car accidents with head injuries can happen too. Are you going to start wearing a helmet in your car? You really should!

Logic is one thing and statistics is another. The ability to make choices based on the two keeps us from feeling the need to wear body armour in the shower.

Nah, that's why they have seatbelt laws. No choice. It's the law. And helmet laws are for the Motorcyclists. No choice. It's the law.

[Strizzo]

i think the point that those people who carry in the wilderness are trying to make is that while you are far more likely to have a crash on your motorcycle, it has a lower chance of ending in death than if you were attacked in the wilderness.

my opinion is that i'd rather have it and not need it. you are free to do what you wish.

[R_Lefebvre]

You may not have been reading what some folks are posting. It has nothing to do with fear. I have not attempted to deride you and if I have done so I apologize. I do try to make people think about how simply having a gun around can benefit them. I am not afraid of the improbable, but I carry tools for the "just in case" Ie. fire extinguisher, spare tire, insurance, etc. Why guns are such a big issue, I may never know. They are simply a tool.

Yes--Quitting motorcycle racing would probably be a smart choice. My dad made that choice when my oldest brother was born. As a result, I have had the good fortune to be able to start a family and have my dad around if I needed advice. My kids know their Grandfather and love him dearly. In my opinion, you should do the things that you love, but if those things have an inordinate risk associated with them, it is selfish to continue. I want my kids to be able to have their Dad around for advice. I have only really gotten to know my dad on a personal level in the last five years. I want my grandkids to have a grandfather to spoil them. Any choice that I make that makes that outcome less likely bears careful consideration before proceeding. You can't live life in fear, but you can mitigate the chances of some extraneous activity ruining your family's lives....

No, I am reading it, but I do believe it's all based on fear despite what the posters claim. It may not be palpable fear, but it is fear at least at the subconscious level.

As for the racing... yeah... I'm unsure. I don't actually think enduro racing is that dangerous. It's relatively low speed, no jumping etc. But it's really hard to draw any conclusions since it's relatively rare so deaths are really onesy-twosy. I think it's certainly no more dangerous than a sedentary lifestyle. But I'm often close to hanging up the gloves.