Camp Baby Sleeping Setups [Archive]

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R_Lefebvre

03-25-2010, 08:30 PM

Ok so... camping with an infant. Nights possibly cold. What options do we have? I'll be camping in a large Maggiolina if that matters.

I need some sort of mini-crib to put her in. I guess co-sleeping makes a lot of sense for warmth, but worries about crushing her in my sleep.

I saw this thing at Toy'r'us, it was like a folding little mini-crib thing that was actually intended for co-sleeping at home. Just some foam walls and fabric. I think that might work because we use a queen-size sleeping back in the Maggiolina.

Corey

03-25-2010, 08:34 PM

What about the new cargo nets from Mike for the Maggiolinas?
Suspend her from the ceiling hammock style :D

The X and I took both our sons camping when babies, we had small down sleeping bags for them handed down from my sister when her two sons were small.

Herbie

03-25-2010, 08:57 PM

There's also the PeaPod infant travel bed:
http://www.kidco.com/main.taf?p=4,5
I saw these at Babies-R-Us and I think I've seen it mentioned as used by others on here also.

I've got camping reservations for 4th of July weekend which is providing a suitable motivation to keep myself moving on building my camping van. If I get the main bed built but don't manage to get the pop-top installed, then we'll either co-sleep the three of us in the main bed or get one of the PeaPods and put it on a board stretched across the front seats or the floor next to the bed. If I get the pop-top done, then I'll go upstairs and wife/baby will co-sleep downstairs.

The long-term plan is for the pop-top to be "Annika's Loft" for her use along with any friends or eventual siblings, but obviously we won't be putting an infant up there while she's still rolling around...

91runner

03-25-2010, 09:02 PM

We have a portable bed from walmart that could work. Has pop up soft sides and a little mattress probably similar to what you found at toys r us.

BIGdaddy

03-25-2010, 09:27 PM

The Adam Blaster

03-25-2010, 09:44 PM

There's also the PeaPod infant travel bed:
http://www.kidco.com/main.taf?p=4,5
I saw these at Babies-R-Us and I think I've seen it mentioned as used by others on here also.

Those are cool, I think I want to get one for my son now!
Even in a hotel room, that would probably be faster/easier than setting up his pack 'n play that we have used in the past.
Of course, he could easily escape that PeaPod, and get me up when he wakes up at 5:30 am... I don't think it would take him long to go through the zippers... lol

datrupr

03-25-2010, 10:41 PM

I like the looks of the Pea Pod too. I have been thinking about a sleeping solution for junior when he comes. I want to get out and camp when he is strong enough to hold his head up, so I'm thinking in June sometime. I might have to check out the Pea Pod.

R_Lefebvre

03-26-2010, 01:23 AM

The peapod was my first idea. But at 48x30, it takes up WAY too much real estate in the Maggiolina. For a large family tent, it would be perfect.

What I'm thinking is something like a... small... dog's bed. Stick it between us in the bed.

I wonder how old they should be before they sleep in the lower section of the trailer I built for them. Phil will be 4. Just a little nervous about it. It will have a dead-bolt from the inside, we'll have (many) keys.

greenmeanie

03-26-2010, 02:29 AM

We started my son when he was 6 months old and he's almost 4 now. Our 9 month old will go for her first camp trip at easter. We sleep in a large family tent which is laid out with as a central space with two 'bedrooms', one off each sides.

From the very beginning we used our surplus adult equipment for him to sleep on. We have a couple of 2/3 length thermarests, an adult down sleeping bag zipped open and laid flat all below him, a cotton sleeping bag that zips up and buttons over his shoulders or fleece pygamas and a fleece blanket on top. He has always been snug, even in sub zero temps.

We simply create a perimeter round his sleeping area with our packs and he is reasonably contained.

Its simple, doesn't take up undue room in th tent or in the truck and, above all, it cost nothing as everything is either used at home or our surplus gear.

Rev

03-26-2010, 03:24 AM

great thread. We have a 3.5 month old. We would like to camp this summer and we wondered about sleeping arrangements.

I am also concerned about cold temps at night.

pskhaat

03-26-2010, 03:31 AM

I guess co-sleeping makes a lot of sense

Yep.

greenmeanie

03-26-2010, 03:51 AM

We tried co-sleeping and discovered that nothing wriggles in the night like a 6 month old. Nobody got a good night's sleep which made everyone pretty miserable so it was better to have them sleep close but separated.

john101477

03-26-2010, 04:53 AM

There's also the PeaPod infant travel bed:
http://www.kidco.com/main.taf?p=4,5
I saw these at Babies-R-Us and I think I've seen it mentioned as used by others on here also.

awe crud now i gotta go buy another thing to camp in lol. We just bought the Big Agnes flying Diamond and that little thing looks like it would fit perfect in the small secondary room. :)

Brian McVickers

03-26-2010, 07:16 AM

Rob,

Any sort of stand alone or separated sleeping enclosure will be too cold. I think even a basinet will get too cold.

Ideally you'll need to have your infant in your sleeping bag with you for warmth but then, as you mentioned, you run the risk of rolling or laying on top.

How about this, it's called the secure sleeper and looks like it could fit right in your bag or under the covers with you:
http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/35/f1/8910d250fca0bd7ea2a6a010.L.jpg

Another good, and inexpensive, solution is a four sided baby changing pad combined with a full body sleeper for the infant. Some of the baby changing pads have four sides and others just have two. You may also like some of them that have extra bolsters that can be velcroed into place, these are most usefull if the infant is still so young it does not have full head or trunk control to keep itself from rolling around uncrontrollably.

http://TRUS.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pTRU1-5172133reg.jpg

http://TRUS.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pTRU1-4260450reg.jpg

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41D64BM0Y9L._AA300_.jpg

http://images.amazon.com/images/G/01/richmedia/images/cover.gif

R_Lefebvre

03-26-2010, 02:02 PM

McVick, that secure sleeper is exactly what I was thinking of. I saw those at Toys'r'us. I think if we put that between us in the queen-size sleeping bag, with her in an additional fleece sleeper thing, that would work. The change pad is another really good idea. Thanks. These things should also help with the wriggling.

Not to suggest this is the be-all-end-all for everybody. Just for our situation with the somewhat cramped Maggiolina. I really like those Pea Pods for warm weather in a big tent.

The little swaddling sleeping bag thing wouldn't work. She likes her arms above her head. Doesn't like to be swaddled anymore.

Now it still leaves the question about the 4 year old boy. Last year, he slept in his own sleeping bag on his own mattress in the family tent in the height of summer. No problem with warmth. When we camped in September, it was quite cool. Probably 40F at night. In that case, we all slept in the Magg, with him simply between us in the queen-bag. The wriggling was a problem though.

So now with the baby between us... where does Phil go? I have thought he could sleep between us, rotated 180° at the foot of the bed, in his own little bag on top of our bag. Or is he ready for his own space? I'm sure he'd be fine down there alone, meaning, he won't be afraid. It's more ME that's afraid. He'd be directly below us, behind a plywood wall, with a hatch that locks with a dead bolt. I think he'd be safe from anything at night. My only fear would be him getting up and wandering off or something. Or, what if an electrical fire started in that compartment? I guess I could put a battery operated smoke detector. That would help a lot! And I've seen battery operated, wireless door chimes. We could hear if he opened the door for some reason.

My plan with the trailer was, when he's 6, Elise will be 3, the 2 of them can stay down there, no worries. But is 4 too early? I think a smoke detector would give me huge peace of mind. As would a door chime.

James86004

03-26-2010, 04:19 PM

This very issue is why we got a heater. We tried cosleeping, but she always got perpendicular to us so she was kicking me and head buttting my wife. We tried putting her in her own bag or under her blanket, but she always wiggled out. We ended up buying the smallest tent trailer we could find and using the propane heater in it. I am amazed where we took that trailer.

When she turned 4 or so she started staying in her bag more consistently. That is about the time the heater broke, too, but at least we didn't need to rely on it any more.

articulate

03-26-2010, 04:22 PM

McVick, that secure sleeper is exactly what I was thinking of....The little swaddling sleeping bag thing wouldn't work. She likes her arms above her head. Doesn't like to be swaddled anymore.
If the secure sleeper would work, I'm betting so would a "ring" of blankets making a little pod would do the trick too - simpler, easier; which you probably already have. That was our system for a while when our daughter was an infant (she is now 2, going to be 3 in July). With babies, it's easy to think that you've got to go buy something (I know that is), but in this case I bet you could make use of a few blankets that you already have.

.....
My plan with the trailer was, when he's 6, Elise will be 3, the 2 of them can stay down there, no worries. But is 4 too early? I think a smoke detector would give me huge peace of mind. As would a door chime.
Do you think the little dude will be okay with sleeping by himself? If so, that's fantastic. There's always a caveat for weather or other conditions, but I'd treat that "special kid's place" like a reward from time to time. Evil parenting plot on my part. I can't wait until my wife and I have the tent all to ourselves again. :)

Brian McVickers

03-26-2010, 04:48 PM

Rob, I'll be impressed if your 4-yr old will sleep down below all by himself out there camping. I don't think I couild get my 4-yr old or my 3-yr old to do it.

I think that if anybody is going to get booted out of the RTT it is going to be you! Thats what I have planned for.

We have been fitting Amy and I along with the two kids into a Maggiolina Small! :Wow1:

One adult and one kid sleep next together and the two sets of us sleep head to toe. However that has turned into the two kids snuggle up to each side of mom and I wind up jack-knifed around the group wherever I can find space.

So my contingency plan untill we get a larger RTT is to put Amy and the kids up in the RTT and I'll use a ground bivy at the foot of the ladder. Our dog sleeps in the back of the truck when he goes with.

And If you can do it, I'd go with Mark's suggestion of the rolled up blanket/sheet/towels unless you really want a store bought item. The rub with things you buy for infants is that they become obsolete in just a few months!

Brian

R_Lefebvre

03-26-2010, 05:39 PM

I could try blankets, but I liked the idea of some kind of firm foam wall to keep me off her. Just... I'm terrified of smothering her. I was actually going to see if maybe my mother and wife could whip something up. My mom can make anything (she made my wife's wedding dress!) and is teaching my wife. They'll be upholstering the inside of the kids area, have already made the matresses. The walls are plywood, but will be covered with a layer of carpet underpadding and then wrapped in marine naugahide. The roof will get some underpadding, and a nice cotton canvas. I'll also be building some cubby boxes in there, and they already have a light.

Yeah, I'll totally have to feel it out about Phil sleeping below, but I wouldn't be surprised if he did it. He gets so excited about that space, for him it's a playhouse, and I think he's still too young to be afraid of anything. He's a little bit special in a number of ways, and this is one of them. We'll see. I'll definitely have to plan some contigencies. Another option is... Wife and baby up top, and me and Phil down below. The space is 5 feet long, and I'm only 5'7" so... it can be done. I've been in there, and it's not so bad, just need to keep the knees bent, which I tend to do anyway.

I sure hope this trailer works out, or it will all have been for naught, and I'll really be wishing I'd just bought the off-road tent trailer!

john101477

03-26-2010, 05:41 PM

wow that sound like a PITA McVick. I would do away with the RTT al together if I had that many people. Might be time to think about those fancy trailer tent deals with 2 levels to sleep in. upper for parent lower for kidos.
Personally I do not mind the a tent. while it may take you 2 min to pack the rtt but it only takes 20 min to do up the tent if that. all in all 20 min in the scheme of things is not that important. We are looking at that kidco tent type thing for our daughter. It will be in our tent but kind of be like her own personal space. She is a bear to sleep in the same room with so we think this will help. She only lasted in the bassinet for about a month after she was born and has slept in her room with the door closed since. At 15 months we converted her bed to the toddler bed and she loves it.

Box Rocket

04-14-2010, 07:09 PM

john101477

04-14-2010, 08:13 PM

Right on Adam, looks like a good time.

Well we bought the Kidco in green with the self inflating mattress. pretty sweet setup. I set it up in the living room for the last 2 weeks for our daughter to get used to playing in it and laying down in it. she loves it and combined with a fairly heavy cotton sleeping bag, she will be warm and comfy in pretty much any situation.

michlong

04-15-2010, 03:29 PM

i want to try and get family out camping this summer, not been in years, and wife is not ethusiastic but i'm working on her.

for the baby i was planning to use the old samsonite popup bubble crib we used for our first, packs small and light. and you can fasten them in so they don't escape.

http://www.kiddicare.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/productdisplay0_10751_-1_11665_10001

not sure if you can buy them stateside...

R_Lefebvre

04-15-2010, 04:42 PM

9 months. Slept in carseats, pajamas, hooded winter sleeper, heavy fleece carseat cover, top blanket. This is what I woke up to after a cold night. Slept well and they look happy as clams to me. :victory:

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k254/boxrocket/Skull%20Valley/_MG_4067.jpg

Yeah, I've seen that before and love that picture. It just won't work in the Maggiolina though. We might still do some tent camping, and then it would be fine. Actually, I bet I could set up the playpen in our huge tent.

bkrobbie

06-01-2010, 03:27 PM

Guys -

I can't believe how much valuable information are contained in these threads and have just read this one with interest.

Couple items, both on and off-topic (sorry for the partial tangent): this is kind of a cop-out but we have camped successfully with our then 16 month old and subsequently a 1.5 and 3.5 year old, and we really didn't do all that much in terms of getting extra gear for them.

I say cop-out because the kids more or less co-sleep with us at home, so we're pretty acclimated with regard to having them squirm around next to us.

So, we simply threw the 16 month old between the two of us, and a couple years later subesquently threw the two of them in between us again.

The baby slept in the same bag as mom, and our older daughter got her own bag which she absolutely loved so that problem has been "solved". This summer, we have a 2.5 and 4.5 year old, and they both have their own bags which they are so enthusiastic about that they often insist on sleeping in them at home.

My question, which is referred to a couple times here, is on the RTT vs. ground tent with the kids.

We have a 6 person Kelty that is simply one big room (which we got a hell of a deal on at Sierra Trading Post) and we have two inflatable "twin" mattresses that we put against one corner creating a king sized sleeping area and which leaves an "L" shaped corridor around it, helpful for gear storage and leaving plenty of space to get dressed/organized prior to unzipping the door (a big plus in crappy weather, or if bugs are particularly rampant).

Quick tent notes: I love the size of the Kelty, and it is well-made and endured ten days of nonstop rain in Acadia National Park. Easy to set up. I do wish the fly itself was larger so it was easier to get into and out of wet boots, jackets, etc before getting inside. It only has one door and I thought that would make me nuts but there is so much room in the tent it is not an issue as it turns out. It is only a 3 season tent as there are permanent mesh vents, so if you do colder stuff or true alpine camping you would be better off with a 4 season tent (you'd get cold in a hurry).

Now, the gearhead in me loves the idea (and the high quality) of the RTT's that I often read about on the boards, and I do like the idea of parking the truck and being ready to camp, kids up off the ground, in a heartbeat.

That said, I do wonder about the practicality of having the tent on the truck and having to collapse it every time we want to move (or just move the truck). We have tended to say in the same place for multiple days and done a lot of day trips, and it has been nice to have the tent set up on day one and populated with all the "base camp" gear over those stays while we roam about.

Am I right in thinking that we are likely better off staying with the ground tent?

As ever, very interested in your experience and opinions.

pskhaat

06-01-2010, 04:13 PM

We liked our family rooftent (2200), but yes you are packing up everytime truck moves.

R_Lefebvre

06-01-2010, 10:45 PM

Or.... get a trailer to put the tent on. :)

bucketosudz

06-02-2010, 01:20 AM

I bookmarked this page to add to this thread. Thought they might invoke some continued dialogue. I like the Carry Cots, wished I would have had one of them when mine were infants...http://shop.babyworld.co.uk/DisplaySection.aspx?secid=124

Sawyer

06-02-2010, 03:22 AM

Just got back from camping with my 20 mo old this past weekend. Last year we would carry the pack and play and put her in that (we sleep in a Big Agnes flying diamond 8). When we were using the pack-n-play, she slept in the big room with us and our dog and gear stayed in the small room. A month ago we decided to try it with out the pack-n-play. We took the pad from the pack-n-play and then put here in fleece, in side her sleep sack and then in one of my 35 degree down bags. we put her in the small room and put our bags around her to make a border. She really liked it. It was really cute when she woke up the next morning and would climb through with a big smale on her face to come see us.

So, now she gets the small room. This past weekend the temps were around 35 at night. Before the trip I bought her the smallest therma rest REI has and then threw a fleece lined ground blanket over that in case she scooted off her pad in her sleep. Then did the same sleeping arrangement... fleece, sleep sack, sleeping bag etc. I also doubled the extra bag length over like a blanket. I got up once around 2-3 to check on her and she was warm and comfy. She loves tent time!

Even during the day We can put her in the tent and zip her in for nap time... although she just ends up playing.... so we put her in the car and go wheeling and she falls instantly asleep......

I know the start of this thread was for sleeping in a magnolia... but thought my experience could help others....

R_Lefebvre

06-02-2010, 03:15 PM

Those carry cots look interesting.

At this point, I think we'll just end up co-sleeping with her for the time being. We were up at the cabin 2 weeks ago, and that's what ended up happening anyway. She didn't like sleeping in an unfamiliar place, so ended up waking up in the middle of the night and my wife had to go get her. She seems big and robust enough now that it won't be a problem. Heck, she's only 10 lbs smaller than our 4 year old boy.

It's amazing, when we returned home, she was so happy to be in her own crib, she was dancing.... as much as a 6 month old can dance...

UK4X4

06-02-2010, 04:04 PM

We use the pea pod too for our little one, excellent little product !

In venolandia it doubles for us as a super mozy net,

the dog uses it when we have fly's arround ( he hates them )

I think ours has been in 5 countries so far.

Now my daughter is 2.5 years and we'll probably phase it out- as per her refusal to use a cot or nappies !

But yep in a magnolia dad will have to be displaced !

We have a 60" wide RTT and with her size now and the 6ft long dog its getting cramped too, and daddies looking for alternative accomodation or modify the existing RTT.

Mine needs a new cover anyway so I have a bunch of ideas to make a 60" long 2ft wide extension for the babe or the hound.

What's the point of a wife if she can't keep you warm while camping !

john101477

06-03-2010, 01:33 PM

Woohoo - ok that may seem a little over the top but we just did a great weekend of camping. We took the peapod with us again and unlike our first outing a few weeks ago our 18 month old slept as if she was at home. She climbed right in blew us kisses and got comfy. She even slept late sunday morning :D

Alchemyguy

06-10-2010, 11:44 PM

We were out at Radium Hot Springs (http://www.pc.gc.ca/regional/sourcesthermales-hotsprings/itm2-/radium_e.asp) this last week, down around 3-5C overnight. She's 15 months old, and has been sleeping in her own crib since she was 10 months. We put her in a play-cage, with a couple of big fuzzy blankets. Momma wrapped her in her fleecy pants and top over tights and a jumper, tied the toque on her head and she was out. No sweat. Still insisted on waking up at 0530h though. :rolleyes:

john101477

06-11-2010, 03:16 AM

Thats awesome. sounds like it would be a great trip

R_Lefebvre

06-11-2010, 06:34 PM

Alchemyguy

06-12-2010, 01:39 PM

My wife is terrified of that sort of thing, and insists on a monitor so she can hear the wee one breathing.

SIDS seems to hit kids from fat, smoking, drinking families, and there's a strong chance there's a genetic component. Also, once they're a year old, the chance goes to nearly zero. We are none of the above. :D

R_Lefebvre

06-21-2010, 03:04 PM

Well, this turned out to be much ado about nothing. We used the Maggiolina on the weekend and it was fine. Elise just slept between my wife and I, no problems. The only issue was it took her a while to fall asleep. The whole camping thing was new to her... And then when she woke up at 6AM she started playing with our faces. But at 20lbs (8 months) already, she's quite robust and I'm not so worried about smothering her.

My son slept between us, "upside down" so his head was at our feet. He was feet to feet with Elise. No problem at all like that.

But, overall it was cramped up there, once you add in the 16lb dog, and the change of clothes... it was packed! And, it was muggy. But what was great was we were able to leave open both doors, with the screens closed over the opening, and the two windows at the ends open as well. And when the rainstorm came over at night (relieving the humidity), we didn't get wet even with the doors open since the the walls are straight vertical and there was no wind. Very cool.

thecriscokid

02-20-2011, 06:51 PM

I just read the thread and got some good ideas. I have a 7 month old and we still have a couple of icy cold months before we can get out on our 1st trip with him. In reality, I may wait until summer for multi day trips with him.
Thanks for the info!

monkeyplunger

11-24-2012, 02:05 AM

We started camping with daughter at two months old in may of this year. It has been a continuous experiment since day one. We have been on nine camping trips total with her just turning 8 months old.

The first three trips were with our off road trailer and a maggiolina airland. Of those the first trip we had our daughter sleep in her car seat and bundled up like a burrito in between us at our feet. After that I fashioned up a mini bassonett that was perpendicular to our bodies theat went over our legs. It was like a little bridge. A standard bassonnett mattress fit inside it with enough room at her feet for diapers and wipes. That served us for two more trips in the off road camper. It worked very well. The key is the use of a Swaddle when they are young. The lowest temp was around upper 30's. She did fine, stayed very warm. Hardest part was unwrapping her to change the diaper.

After that worked started to get more stressful and I had to spend a lot more time than I would care to do. This decreased our overlanding and we have focused to forest camping closer to the house. So the wife and I decided for a little larger camper which we could keep packed and ready to go, but did not want something that big. We also wanted to be able to take it on FS unimproved trails since there are many near us. We settled on a fleetwood evolution E1.

The E1 is great for a pop up. Little more robust and good for mild off road. As for our little munchkin, she sleeps on the small bed without blankets. When she was swaddled it was very easy and she slept very well. As she is getting older and more mobile it is more challenging. We have not figured out a good way to keep her from rolling off the bed. She wears a fleece sleepsack and For now we use our two duffle bags with a body pillow as a bumper system. Trouble is that she is getting to a point where she can easily crawl over this barricade.

If you put her down for he night she has to be passed out, if not she wants to crawl out of bed. So it is back to the drawing board to see if we can make some screen to keep her from getting off the bed.

I am hoping next year we can get back to the off road trailer and do some more remote camping.

I thought it would be too hard to go camping with an infant. All of my friends stopped doing everything when they started having kids. I told my wife that having a kid would nit change what we do, just how we do it. What I found is camping is the absolute best way for me to spend a lot of time with my kid. There is no one to distract you, no chores around the house, no cell service (most of the time), no stores, nothing but nature and my family. I work a lot of hours and it's my way of catching up on dad time and I wouldn't do it any other way.

Sorry to digress, but all I can say about what works best - patience, and trust that you will find a way to do it. Swaddles and sleep sacks sure help. One thing that I started to do for her is create a geo-log for every place we camp with her so hopefully one day she can retrace her footsteps when she is older. Not sure if this helps at all, but hopefully some part may.

Burnsy949

11-24-2012, 02:31 PM

Something like this might work:

http://www.amazon.com/The-First-Years-Secure-Sleeper/dp/B00012CHFI

hitek79

12-02-2012, 02:41 AM

I'm glad this thread got bumped back up. Great info here. We have a 6 month old, but I'm not sure she'll be doing any camping this winter. Mom hates the cold. Our little girl cosleeps with us in a snuggleme. It's a great little bed.

http://www.simplymommyonline.com/

It wouldn't take up too much room at all, and would be warm in the winter. Put on a hat and some blankets and she would probably be pretty toasty.

TexasTJ

12-06-2012, 08:22 PM

We zip our bags together and just have our Son sleep between us. Its not for everyone, but it works for our family. We have also zipped up my puffy jacket and used it as a sleeping bag for him.

Nate

Westicoast

02-13-2013, 12:03 AM

I can't find a photo with the cover on. But this is the kids cot I made for my three year old. He loves the thing and it’s quite strong. Total investment is less than $50. We are camping this weekend. I'll try to bring back a photo of it finished. http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss150/ssnow84/Vanagon/880EF3F4-EDB3-44CE-9AEC-873BF11A562C-10644-0000101FE6D6E398_zps5132e469.jpg

Amy H

02-15-2013, 05:02 AM

Just an FYI the peapod infant bed mentioned in earlier post was recalled due to a 5 month old sufficating to death.

We co-slept with our son until he was 5 years old. Just don't sleep with baby while drinking or use of any drugs. If you can't afford much, a couple of pool noodles under the sheets can create a little barrier from your little one rolling away. There are also other portable bassinets out there that would fit into a tent easily.

Westicoast

02-18-2013, 04:38 PM

We camped this weekend. It was hard to keep our little boy out of this thing. Also it made a handy gear shelf with he wasn't in it.

http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss150/ssnow84/Vanagon/0E751D79-BCC4-45C8-9293-D917A1D3B112-2287-000003E86360B6B2_zpsba79db31.jpg

http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss150/ssnow84/Vanagon/C1E64ECA-5998-47B8-B2DD-00B1F62792FC-2287-000003E8590F8CD0_zps893ea500.jpg