Bill Burke article on Bad Eggs

[DaktariEd]

Maybe many of you have already read Bill Burkes April 2005 website letter regarding "Errant 4 Wheelers" in Moab.

But if not, he's very "ticked" and raises some very important issues we all need to be aware! Bill Burke letter (http://www.bb4wa.com/letter.htm)

How do you counter such wanton destruction?

Ed

[DesertRose]

Thanks for posting this, Ed.

Most of the folks we've had actively discussing conservation and land use on this forum are in complete agreement - but the answer to "what do we do about it?" is hard and we never come up with an easy one.

Education seems to be the biggest thing. A recent article in the Tucson paper showed just how un-educated (note I refrain from using nastier monikers) OHV enthusiasts are: "I used to be able to ride all over the open range," one said, "And now all these rules say I can't!" Or the guy who said, "So many of the trails are so degraded now by overuse, we need more trails." Like, 'scuse me, ever heard of getting your fat heiney out there and using a shovel? voluntarily closing and then fixing the trail for a while so it heals? Jeez...

We've had some luck on Las Cienegas National Conservation Area where OHVs and buggies were ripping up the grasslands (creating trails) and degrading legal trails with speed and doing donuts. We've had less trouble - but still trouble - with some rock-crawlers who kept opening up the illegal road into the creek. We (the Sonoita Valley Planning Partnership, a very diverse group of citizens - recreationists, cowboys, environmentalists, etc - and BLM and wildlife people) printed up flyers and volunteers handed them out on weekends.

Trouble is, BLM has 2 law enforcement officers - for their entire southern Arizona holdings!!

But the volunteers talked with people and it helped, for a while. But once you slack off, it all starts again.

It's like the kids when the parents are gone.

So that leaves other users to do the educating, but who wants to ruin a nice day by having to confront (even if you do it nicely, these guys get nasty when you suggest they might be wrecking stuff for everyone) a jerk?

Sigh. It's tough. I like Burke's quip:

"If you are one of those that needs to fight nature then go SWIM WITH THE SHARKS! I am sure they will have fun with your body. And we that share an environmental ethic will not even remotely miss. Can you say: “Gene pool selection” and Darwin awards?"

(BTW - the reason the Sonoita Valley PP was wasting its time on the OHV issue is that hard-core enviro groups and some in theBLM wanted to BAN all OHVs AND any 4x4 groups from having access!!! That's the beauty of citizen involvement in management a landscape: we can help keep it open for all, but the users need to help, too.

4x4 use and OHVs are not currently banned on Las Cienegas. But if the degradation continues - watch out!]

[DesertRose]

An article in this morning's paper in Tucson illustrates what happens when one user group or section of a user group is irresponsible:

Patagonia Lake gets total ban of jet-skis (http://www.azstarnet.com/metro/104088.php)

Quote from the article:

"Tom Matte, co-owner of Arizona Honda, a Tucson dealership that sells Honda's version of the watercraft, says the board's action is unfair to owners and others who enjoy riding Jet Skis on Patagonia Lake, where he conducts tests rides for customers.

"I think all public parks should be available for all the public to use," he said. "That lake belongs to all of us."

Well, Tom, maybe you should be educating the people you sell those things to about responsible use . . . instead of just whining!

And the lake belongs to everyone, yes: that's why one user group ruined it for everyone. I've been there when the jet skis are roaring around, and it's awful. I'm glad they're gone! If they had kept it to a reasonable use (and following the rules), they wouldn't have been banned. Cause and effect.

[The BN Guy]

Excellent letter and great points.

We have some trails in my area that I frequent. Yes trash is left by some idiots that wheel there too, but the worst part is not our fault. The area is within the city limits, is a flood plain, and is easily accessible to everyone. That means that many people decide to clean up their property and dump it there. From limbs and leaves to old tires, old baby beds, strollers, car seats, etc., boards, doors, windows, fencing, you name it you can find it out there.

Makes me so sick. Many private wheeling locations have quite strict rules concerning littering and the consumption of alcohol while on the trails.

It's a shame that most of us are quite responsible but it just takes a few to ruin it for everyone.

There have been some attempts to help clean the area up but the group barely makes it less than one-half mile in before everything is full.

[goodtimes]

Bill has some valid points, but getting on your soapbox via the internet does little good. To me, it sounds like Bill Burke is doing nothing more than throwing a temper tantrum. He knows better, he has been involved too long to think that his little rant will change ANYTHING. Why didn't he explain the problem (cause/effect) with the people who weren't acting responsibly? Did they even know that what they were doing was creating a problem? It is entirely possible that these people were ignorant of the effects of their actions....in which case they need to be educated. Rather than rub them the wrong way (at which time they will continue to do exactly what you don't want them to do, just to spite you----just like a testosterone soaked teenage boy), educate them. If that fails, *then* feed 'em to the sharks.

Having never met Bill Burke, but having read that artical, I have a low opinion of him. He seems the typical passive-aggresive American. It is his way or the hiway. If you don't do exactly what he wants, how he wants, and when he wants, he feels you are a moron who shouldn't be allowed out of the house. Rather than educate someone, Bill Burke would yell at them. How would you react to this if you were on your first off-road trip, and Bill was the first person you ran into? It would probably p!$$ you off, and you would immediately put him into the catagory of "eco-nazi", and would forever disregaurd anything he ever says. Not a very good way to get your message across, if you ask me.

That is my first impression of Bill Burke. He will never get a chance to make another first impression on me, or the thousands upon thousands of people who have read that article.

I love exploring the back roads, rock crawling, hiking, backpacking, kayaking, ad nausium. But like most of us, I despise trash lying around, wildcat trails, oil spills, and the general destruction of our enviroment. I agree with Roseanne, education is key. Many of us have a huge investment in our passtime (monetary as well as our time). We need to protect our ability to access the wide open spaces this country has to offer. Bill Burke's artical does not accomplish this. What it does accomplish is getting people emotions stirred up but fails to offer any examples of good stewerdship. OK, someone did somethign that they shouldn't have....what did Bill Burke do to prevent it from happening again? Did he explain how a group that he is involved in is out educating people on trail manners? Did he tell you how he tried to block off the illegal bypass around Rock Pile in a effort to prevent someone else from going that way? Instead of telling someone they should be swimming with the sharks, he should be offering examples for other people to emulate. (BTW, I have no idea if he is involved with the above activities....they are meerly examples of what I think would be a better response than the juvinile temper tantrum that he had).

In short, Bill Burke needs to check his attitude at the door if he wants to be truely effective at keeping people on the trail. This article is a disservice to him and the rest of the OHV community. Offer solutions, not attitudes.

[Ursidae69]

How do you suppose BB's article is perceived on Pirate? Probably not good at all and that crowd is full of the people we need to tread a little more lightly.

[goodtimes]

BB's artical was not recieved very well over at Pirate. Many of them feel as I do....BB was throwing a tantrum.

Granted, there is a high "redneck factor" over there......but make no mistake, many of them are just like us when it comes to "Tread lightly". Just because someone drives a rock buggy does not mean they are out there destroying the enviroment every chance they get. In fact, in many circumstances, a well built rock buggy will do less damage to enviroment than any one of our vehicles. For example, look at gatekeeper on the rubicon (see thread down in off topic). A well built buggy will walk right through that with little difficulty given a experienced driver. A jeep like mine will struggle a little. A stock jeep will have a very difficult time, and will likely be spinning tires, trying several different lines, etc before they get over the obstical. So, in this example, what is worse, a buggy or a stock vehicle?

Point being, don't blame the rock buggies. Blame the people who are driving off the trail, regardless what they drive.

[DaktariEd]

Granted that it's the driver not the vehicle, but bozos are still trashing things. :mad:

I don't believe it will do a lot of good in a reasonable period of time to try to educate the uneducable. It may be similar to trying to change someone's mind about a hot topic like abortion or evolution (now don't go off topic here; those are just illustrations!).

The question I come back to is what can be done to counter the damage that is efficient, productive, and effective?

Perhaps our representative 4WD organizations can be helpful in this respect, but what about letters to key congressmen and women, expressing our condemnation of such activities, and offering concrete suggestions for improvement? And writing these letters now, not later. I would bet that there are bills before Congress as we speak that are meant to limit access based on the destructive acts of a few. A letter any time would be better than not writing at all.

It seems that most of us sit by quietly until the 11th hour when closures are imminent before we take action.

Perhaps preemptive action would be preferable.

My 2 cents...

Ed :)

[DesertRose]

Very good points, everyone. Who is to know what Bill Burke has done from an advocacy/education angle - perhaps he was just so mad, he had to get it off his chest and had the forum (website) to do so.

I do think whining/ranting does little to reach the people who really need to be reached.

But what does (like Daktaried, I want to pull the disussion back to practicality)?

The clubs are NOT the problem, and most of them down in southern Arizona already do tons of trash cleanups and trail repairs and work with the land agencies to fix things. They also try to do education. But there comes a point: how much time should they waste, of their precious time, trying to reach people? Is it effective?

Scott once said that he thinks this is more of a whole attitude problem - the "I'm going to do whatever I want" generation and the &*%$ with everyone else.

And Ed's right: most of us sit back and wait til the 11th hour (or we sit just as passive-aggressively as Bill Burke purportedly did, writing stuff like this!!! :exclaim: ) until the other groups get the trails closed or the rigs banned.

What to do?

Wish i had an easy answer. I guess part of me wants to keep going back to education - but it takes a long time (as Daktaried said) and then who's responsibility is it? The land agency ultimately but they have no money. The companies that produce the ads showing new trucks racing around off road - tearing things up and being bozos?

And part of me wants . . . :gunt:

I do know one thing after many many years in the land-use and conservation business: People who don't care, and people with extreme agendas, may temporarily get the most done - like destroying the land, or getting it closed to the majority of people - but ultimately coalitions of like-minded people, people who care, and people with open minds, get the most positive work done.

So don't give up! Just picking up trash and being POSITIVE force for 4x4 use WILL make a difference when the others try to close areas. The land use agencies need to see that there are responsible users, too - it makes it much harder to close land then.

In Patagonia lake, there were no responsible users advocating . . .

So I guess even though it seems like you aren't having an effect by just being good guys, you really are!!

[DesertRose]

How do I know that just being good advocates and users will help?

I have sat through many meetings with powers-that-be in BLM and Forest Service while the decisions are being discussed and made about just such things as road closures . . .

And the one thing that strikes proper fear into the heart of a district ranger on their way up the ladder: coalitions of well-organized, reasonable, responsible people. They write one letter: it gets read, it gets copied, it gets passed around, and it weighs a ton.

Those 10-bazillion electronic letters generated by the humungo conservation machines? They get ignored.

I gee-ar-un-tee it. Been there, saw it.

[goodtimes]

And part of me wants . . . :gunt:


I think we all feel that way sometimes.

You also bring up another good point. What about those car companies and their commercials? Should they be getting some of our attention too? We always seem to concentrate on educating one person...usually after they have done something wrong. Is there a reason that the problem is not addressed sooner...before they even buy that 4x4?

[DaktariEd]

I think we all feel that way sometimes.

You also bring up another good point. What about those car companies and their commercials? Should they be getting some of our attention too? We always seem to concentrate on educating one person...usually after they have done something wrong. Is there a reason that the problem is not addressed sooner...before they even buy that 4x4?


Another good point!

The commercials SELL crashing and bashing about. It would seem that there is a target to effect change. But how? Letter writing? A boycott? How many would participate in such a thing? Not many I suspect...

People who respond to such commercials likely envision themselves doing just what the commercial partrays. The weekend "warrior." That's the whole point of the commercial! Why would any of the big car manufacturers want to risk lost market share to be environmentally responsible?

Ed

[Scott Brady]

Tread Lightly has attempted to start changing the commercials. They drafted a media guideline to Tread Lightly, and as I remember, only Hummer and Ford have signed it. I believe Land Rover did as well.

[Scott Brady]

This is all that was available on the public site: http://www.treadlightly.org/edu.mv?edu=Advertising%20Guidelines

[goodtimes]

Another good point!

The commercials SELL crashing and bashing about. It would seem that there is a target to effect change. But how? Letter writing? A boycott? How many would participate in such a thing? Not many I suspect...

I don't think many would either. Even if you got 1,000 people to boycott a MFR, would it really affect them enough to cause any sort of positive change? I doubt it....not when they are selling hundreds of thousands of trucks every year. Plus, it isn't like it is just one manufacturer, it's all of them. If someone is in the market for a new 4x4, they are going to buy it from one of them. So how does one go about affecting change in the thinking of the collective marketing departments?

[pskhaat]

All rhetoric aside, I have to factually agree with BB here as this week in Moab I've seen more damage than at any time before. He's correct about the cryptobiotic soil, if you havn't seen the signs or read the posters everywhere in most languages I can't imagine how one just doesn't know this.

It's not education that helps here, everyone KNOWS what's cool and not, it's just that so few people CARE! I have no answers for this case other than increased fees for access (4wd, hiking, biking, whatever) and equally increased enforcement in all regards. That's a lofty goal, but seriously, what else can you do with a vast and growing populace that simply does not care about our environment? It's a metaphoric snapshot into society and goverments.

[calamaridog]

All rhetoric aside, I have to factually agree with BB here as this week in Moab I've seen more damage than at any time before. He's correct about the cryptobiotic soil, if you havn't seen the signs or read the posters everywhere in most languages I can't imagine how one just doesn't know this.

It's not education that helps here, everyone KNOWS what's cool and not, it's just that so few people CARE! I have no answers for this case other than increased fees for access (4wd, hiking, biking, whatever) and equally increased enforcement in all regards. That's a lofty goal, but seriously, what else can you do with a vast and growing populace that simply does not care about our environment? It's a metaphoric snapshot into society and goverments.


Increased enforcement? I've seldom ever seen "enforcement" of any kind and I've spent a bunch of time on the trail.

Education? Sorry, I disagree here, many still don't know right from wrong. I agree that many who DO know right from wrong still choose to do wrong.

Increased fees? Why? They will just steal the money for some political pork barrel project. The money never makes it to the intended place.

Growing number of users? That's right. More users and less trails = more resource damage to existing trail systems. Good formula for the ban and close crowd.

Hey, in a perfect world, people who drove off the trail (without a damn good reason) would just spontaneously combust :sunny:

As far as B Burke is concerned, he did the right thing and went about it, perhaps, in the wrong way.

[Ursidae69]

Increased enforcement is the answer that will get the most bang for the buck, not only in Moab, but all over the west. Right now enforcement is very rare to non-existent. To get more enforcement, the land agencies need more funding. Increased funding should come earmarked explicitly for enforcement so it is not used for other pork projects.

[pskhaat]

I should also mention that the majority of damage appears from my recent wanderings in Moab to be from ATVs. I've seen the rock buggies and though there are probably a higher than normal % of bad folks who drive buggy, the ATV crowd seems to be the WORST.

Almost every trail (hiking & biking trails mind you, NOT simply 4WD trails) have been torn up by small track tires (ATV).

Why is this?

[pskhaat]

Increased enforcement? I've seldom ever seen "enforcement" of any kind and I've spent a bunch of time on the trail.

Nor have I. That's why I believe a better presense will help.



Education? Sorry, I disagree here

I'm not (nor did I) condoning increased eductation, I think there's enough.



Increased fees? Why? They will just steal the money

There needs to be some type direct contribution mechanism. I don't have the answer but I can't imagine ther aren't like-minded lawyers out there who have set up means of direct funding.

[Scott Brady]

IMO, there needs to be a "sticker" program that limits travel to street legal vehicles on public lands. Trailered buggy's only belong in OHV Parks and on Private Property...

The biggest issue with damage today is the fact that modern ATV's and Rock Buggy's are not challenged by the regular trail. They must blaze new routes to challenge the driver and machine.

I really hope with rock buggy phase ends soon, or it will be the end of OHV travel in the West as we know it.

Mother nature should not be their playground.

[pskhaat]

I would have never in the past agreed with you there, but I do believe I am about to change my mind about licensing in the way you described.

[Scott Brady]

10 years ago, I would have never imagined it being necessary, but off-highway recreation has migrated from a hobby/means of exploration to a sport. If you look at any other OHV sport, like sand rails, etc. Their activities are usually confined to an area easily renewed (like sand) or where the impact can be managed.

Another issue has been the weakening of the local clubs. Virtual clubs now boast huge memberships (AZVJC has over 5,000 members) and no policies for impact, education or policing. I was called out as a young man for going off trail by members of the club I belong to. They did it in a way that was gracious, and it changed the way I looked at things. These new virtual clubs are a testosterone fest, with everyone trying to outdo each other.

I talk about tread lightly EVERY TIME I travel with a group. I want my position known before we even shift into 4WD.

I have talked about "environmental sustainability" before, and these new high power, high clearance buggy's and ATV's create an unsustainable cycle.

33" tires - locking diffs = 5 rates trail 10 years ago
35" tires - locking diffs = required new trails, like Axle Alley
37" tires - locking diffs - long travel = Die Trying, new Hammer Trails, etc.
38" tires - no body - adjustable suspension = NO TRAILS, just drive where you like

What is next? 50" tires with computer controlled suspension leveling, nitrous, self leveling cabs, etc.?

The cycle cannot be supported by our poorly monitored public lands.

...Sorry for the soup box...

[Alaska Mike]

The problem with limiting trail use to only street legal vehicles is that they continue to narrow the definition of street legal, effectively limiting what is and isn't a trail. Trail closure through equipment regulation. The environmental lobbies have been doing this for years. Would you prefer nothing higher than stock (suspension/tires) on trails?

I've never seen the need for tires larger than 33" on a smaller vehicle (i.e. Jeep or Toyota truck), preferring to use tactics and recovery tools to achieve the desired result. It keeps breakage down, makes for an interesting challenge, and in many cases limits impact. However, there are situations where a little more is required. Not everyone is into the same terrain or way of wheeling.

Rock (or im my part of the world, tundra) buggies are an intersting offshoot. There are places where they are in their element and provide the least damaging mode of transport. However, the often end up in the wrong hands or are poorly engineered (form over function) and end up doing nothing but damage. The magazines glorify highly built rigs as the only mode of real wheeling. Real adventure wheeling has become a footnote, with narratives mainly concentrating on breakage and what I call "status wheeling". A new, impressionable wheeler would come away with the idea that large tires and high horsepower are the quick route to mastery. Highly built rigs have their place in our sport. However, when they become the rule rather than exception, we need to look at what's driving the change.

A buddy of mine who has competed in the Outback Challenge and other events recently purchased a stock early CJ-5 to run on trails now. His competition rig became boring on normal trails, and he quickly realized that wheeling on a more basic level provides that thrill of problem solving and tactical driving- even on a "mild" trail. I applaud this approach and hope it catches on.

It's a tough balance. Obviously EJS has gotten out of hand, and the organizers no longer can control the masses their event attracts. I'd say it no longer is a positive reflection of our sport. Either they fix it in a meaningful way, or do away with the event altogether. Any time you get that many people together, you are obviously going to have the undesirables that ruin it for everyone. The organizer's inability to police the event put wheeling in that area at risk. However, the "ban them all" approach will only bite us all in the end.

[calamaridog]

The problem with limiting trail use to only street legal vehicles is that they continue to narrow the definition of street legal, effectively limiting what is and isn't a trail. Trail closure through equipment regulation. The environmental lobbies have been doing this for years. Would you prefer nothing higher than stock (suspension/tires) on trails?

Yes and no. I think of rigs like guns; some are ok for all ranges while others are too large or powerful for some ranges. I should be able to use all of my guns somewhere but not necessarily at the same places.


I've never seen the need for tires larger than 33" on a smaller vehicle (i.e. Jeep or Toyota truck), preferring to use tactics and recovery tools to achieve the desired result. It keeps breakage down, makes for an interesting challenge, and in many cases limits impact. However, there are situations where a little more is required. Not everyone is into the same terrain or way of wheeling.

I've never owned a tire larger than 33". My junk seems to go the same places as other junk.


Rock (or im my part of the world, tundra) buggies are an intersting offshoot. There are places where they are in their element and provide the least damaging mode of transport. However, the often end up in the wrong hands or are poorly engineered (form over function) and end up doing nothing but damage. The magazines glorify highly built rigs as the only mode of real wheeling. Real adventure wheeling has become a footnote, with narratives mainly concentrating on breakage and what I call "status wheeling". A new, impressionable wheeler would come away with the idea that large tires and high horsepower are the quick route to mastery. Highly built rigs have their place in our sport. However, when they become the rule rather than exception, we need to look at what's driving the change.

Small penis syndrome must drive the craze. Or advertising dollars?


A buddy of mine who has competed in the Outback Challenge and other events recently purchased a stock early CJ-5 to run on trails now. His competition rig became boring on normal trails, and he quickly realized that wheeling on a more basic level provides that thrill of problem solving and tactical driving- even on a "mild" trail. I applaud this approach and hope it catches on.

I agree. The best wheeling I've ever done was in the stock 1957 Willy's that my Grandfather bought new.


It's a tough balance. Obviously EJS has gotten out of hand, and the organizers no longer can control the masses their event attracts. I'd say it no longer is a positive reflection of our sport. Either they fix it in a meaningful way, or do away with the event altogether. Any time you get that many people together, you are obviously going to have the undesirables that ruin it for everyone. The organizer's inability to police the event put wheeling in that area at risk. However, the "ban them all" approach will only bite us all in the end.

I see no problem with smaller events but you are right, some of the larger events are out of control. And yes, undesirables seem to appear at all events. Let them know why they are undesirable and they tend to learn or leave.

[Ursidae69]

Scott,

The rock buggy phase won't be ending anytime soon I don't think. However, they are not the main problem. The ATVs are the main problem and that certainly won't be ending. The ATVs get more and more capable every year.

On Saturday, I drove forest road 143 from Lake Roosevelt to Beeline Highway. This is a great road that crosses over the mountains just north of 4 peaks. It's all 2wd, but still pretty. Many of the areas are burned up there and one thing I noticed was more than 20 new ATV tracks through the burned areas. It's easy to drive your quad off-road through the areas now because it's a moonscape in places. The erosion is already really high due to the burn, now these new ATV tracks will only make it worse. In a year, these illegal ATV tracks will be big enough for a jeep and then a year later my Tacoma could drive on them. It's a bad cycle. I passed over a hundred quads on this single morning on one FS road, saw another 20-30 motorcycles, and 30 or so folks shooting guns leaving trash behind, etc... How many law enforcement officers did I see? NONE of course. The answer to all the problems lies in enforcement. Enforcement, enforcement, enforcement!!!!!!!!!!! This requires funding and that makes it's political... Once it gets political, forget about it.

[Alaska Mike]

Yes and no. I think of rigs like guns; some are ok for all ranges while others are too large or powerful for some ranges. I should be able to use all of my guns somewhere but not necessarily at the same places.

Who decides what is and isn't too powerful/big? That's my issue here. Will someday my 33"-shod rig be considered excessive, since it exceeds the original configuration? I'm no fan of 95% of the buggies out there, since they serve no real functional purpose (other than to feed their owners egos). However, the issue isn't really with the tool, it's with the tool behind the wheel. Properly used, buggies can be extremely low impact. The problem occurs when the owner doesn't feel properly challenged and deviates from an approved route. Unfortunately, you can't legislate common sense or personal responsibility.

[Scott Brady]

Who decides what is and isn't too powerful/big? That's my issue here. Will someday my 33"-shod rig be considered excessive, since it exceeds the original configuration? I'm no fan of 95% of the buggies out there, since they serve no real functional purpose (other than to feed their owners egos). However, the issue isn't really with the tool, it's with the tool behind the wheel. Properly used, buggies can be extremely low impact. The problem occurs when the owner doesn't feel properly challenged and deviates from an approved route. Unfortunately, you can't legislate common sense or personal responsibility.

I hear what you are saying Mike...

My opinion is that if a vehicle is street legal, it can be on public land. That means you need a drivers license too. This should also apply to quads and motorcycles. Unlicensed buggy's, quads and motorcycles should only be in OHV areas or on private land.

Don't change any of the current laws for what makes a vehicle street legal. The jacked-up full size trucks are mall queens anyways....

I wish it wasn't this way, but it is, and closures only punish the ones doing the right thing.

[goodtimes]

Buggy's aren't going away, and buggies aren't the problem. Most people know I like to run harder trails with my jeep (33" tires and all). Give me a good 4.0 or a 4.5, and I'm happy. I rarely see buggies on these trails as they are too easy for them....so they go somewhere else. There are trails suitable for them. Of course we rarely see these trails because what makes them suitable for the buggies makes them unsuitable for us....we simply don't go there. IMO, there needs to be trails for them. If there is a place for them to go do thier thing, they will go there. Imagine what it would be like if we closed down Glamis. We would have sand rails all over the desert looking for their kicks....give them a place to go, and they will go there. You will always have that small group of individuals who stray from the mainstream croud and do stupid things....and we need to enforce our laws to protect the enviroment from them. They are the problem. the 1%. The ones who ruin it for the rest of us. Without education for the people who don't know better (particularly the 16 - 24 year olds who have way too much testosterone in their bodies), and enforcement for those who simply don't care, then it won't get any better.

Scott, you bring up a great point about the lack of clubs, which equates to lack of leadership and role models for younger 'wheelers. It seems that every run I go on is with a different group of people...all loosly associated through a few websites. In fact, I can't recall the last time I went 'wheeling with someone that I did not initially meet via the internet.

Back to buggies.....For every buggy I see off the trail, I see at least 10 stock or near stock vehicles off the trail trying to get around a obstical that they either don't like, or cant get through. The problem is not the buggys, it is the asshats driving vehicles off the trail. FWIW, it is currently illegal to operate a uninsured, unlicensed vehicle on any public road. It is illegal to drive any vehicle off of a designated road or trail. Creating a sticker program will accomplish nothing. What needs to happen is enforcement of existing laws. If and when the enforcement of those laws proves inefficient, then, and only then, should more laws be considered. Much like gun laws....new laws make no sense if you can't even enforce the ones you already have. If we take the mentality that new laws will solve the problem, then we will legislate our passtime out of existance.

And lastly, just to clarify a point: The problem I have with BB's article is the manner in which it is presented, and the stereotypes he is enforcing. His message is correct at the core....there is a problem and we need to deal with it.

[Ursidae69]

What needs to happen is enforcement of existing laws. If and when the enforcement of those laws proves inefficient, then, and only then, should more laws be considered. Much like gun laws....new laws make no sense if you can't even enforce the ones you already have. If we take the mentality that new laws will solve the problem, then we will legislate our passtime out of existance.

Exactly. So, we need to get big groups like the BRC to organize letter writing campaigns regarding more funding for enforcement. Sadly, more funding is not available across the board due to Katrina, the war, debt, politics, etc. The bottom line is that extremist envionmental groups can sue to close any area where the laws are not enforced and they have a good point is doing so.

[Alaska Mike]

I would love it if ATV and off-road motorcycle riders had to be licensed. At the very least, it would provide much-needed funds for education and enforcement. ATV riders tend not to join clubs, and therefore aren't always subject to the same peer-pressure (in the most positive sense) to do the right thing. The price of entry is low, and very few (if any) modifications are needed, further keeping down the costs and reasons for banding together. Without licensing, people society deems unfit to drive on streets can still operate ATVs. Again, the vast majority of owners are responsible, but a few bad apples can spoil everyone's fun. At least in the ATV world, some of that can be attributed to ignorance.

To be honest, I agree with Scott that the internet has had a mostly negative effect on wheeling. Instead of getting more organized, we've fragmented into clusters of non-affiliated wheelers that answer to nobody. Word spreads far and wide about particular trails, vastly increasing traffic and impact. Web board wheeling seems to be the way of the future. Without responsible individuals running those trips, it will only get worse.

[pskhaat]

What are the current laws regarding drivers' licensing on non-improved roads (trails) in various western states?

[datrupr]

I have been following this post but just now read the letter. I do have to agree with BB, but I also have to agree with those on this board who think that perhaps his approach is a bit off base. Something does have to be done about it and enforcement seems the most logical way, but again there is a funding issue. I will not get off on a rant here, but there are many suggestions here, but it is a metter of implementation.

Scott, I believe in AZ all drivers must be licensed and all vehicles must be licensed and insured to be operated on public roads. But then again, there is the matter of enforcement. The funds just aren't there to pay the officers to do the enforcing.

[calamaridog]

Who decides what is and isn't too powerful/big? That's my issue here. Will someday my 33"-shod rig be considered excessive, since it exceeds the original configuration? I'm no fan of 95% of the buggies out there, since they serve no real functional purpose (other than to feed their owners egos). However, the issue isn't really with the tool, it's with the tool behind the wheel. Properly used, buggies can be extremely low impact. The problem occurs when the owner doesn't feel properly challenged and deviates from an approved route. Unfortunately, you can't legislate common sense or personal responsibility.

Back to my example. Some weapons fire too powerful a projectile to be used safely or without damage to the equipment at the range. For example, no rifles over a certain calibre at an indoor pistol range. The rounds would go through the trap instead of into it.

And some buggys are running around on 3 ton axles that are too wide for the Jeep trails they are running on. That is the type of restrictions I'm talking about, mainly having to do with width.

I go wheeling at a local OHV spot where some tracks are only wide enough for bikes, some for bikes and ATV's, and some for Jeeps and other 4wd vehicles. It is a tight squeeze in many parts for the Land Cruiser. But you don't see me trying to drive on the bike and ATV tracks. Those are off limits to wider vehicles for good reason.

There are plenty of rock piles around. Open a few more up for the buggys to play on. That is what they want anyways.

And no, you can't legislate common sense, but you can fund law enforcement officers. One visible cop patroling an OHV area makes a huge difference.

Seriously, they are going to add several thousand more Border Patrol agents every year for the next several years. And the BLM will get none. It makes no sense.