Toyo or Michelin for Mercedes vario 814 4X4

[Ullie]

Hey,

We live in Belgium and we are building our own 4X4 traveling vehicle on a Mercedes Vario 814 4X4.
This is what it looks like now
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p84/UllieX-trail/Vario%20ombouw/kraan.jpg

And this is what it will resemble like when finished
http://www.birkert-reisen.de/img/wohnmobil.jpg

Now we want to put single rim tyres on the back instead of the double wheels it has from the factory. But we are undecided for the tyre. We have the choice between the Michelin XDE2+ (285/70 R19.5 or 305/70 R19.5) and the Toyo M608 (285/70 R19.5). Can you as experienced travelers tell us which tyre you would prefer and why?
The maximum weight of the vehicle will be 7.5 tons, but in general it will be between 6.5 and 7 tons.

Thank you very much for your advice,

Ulrich

[nick disjunkt]

Hi Ulrich,

Nice truck! There is an english couple selling a similar vehicle on ebay at the moment:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mercedes-814DA-4x4-overland-motorhome-four-wheel-drive-/250643725326?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_Campers_Caravans_Motorhomes&hash=item3a5b87bc0e

Personally I think the ground clearance and departure angle of their box, and the huge overhang make this 814 unsuitable for off-road use and I think it largely negates the benefit of having a 4x4 driveline.

I have no experience of the Toyo tyre but I previously had the Michelin XDE2 on my two wheel drive mercedes 1823 truck (315/80 R22.5). Obviously on a 2wd vehicle the rear axle traction is important and I found the XDE2 useless in mud. The tread pattern may look similar to the off road block types but the tread depth is too small and the gaps between the blocks too narrow to effectively channel mud to the edge of the tyre.

The XDE2 is designed as a multi-use city and highway tyre and I found it great for this job (until I got two flat spots from an emergency breaking manouvre!) but off-road it is not a good choice. The rubber is very hard which is good for long life but less good for getting traction on poor roads.

The Michelin XZY/XDY is a much better tyre for a mixture of on and off-road travel and the tread depth is sufficient to make it much more robust on difficult surfaces.

[charlieaarons]

I would get the 305/70R19.5 if you can make it work with room and gearing.
Your weight will always be more than you think and the 305 XZA in 18 ply rating has almost 500kg more load capacity than the 285 XDE+. It also has almost 6% bigger footprint which will make a difference on sand.
Are you going to fit the same tires on front, I hope so in a 4X4! Will they fit at full lock?
My Unimog "gained" 2.6 tons in the rear between pickup at Unicat with empty tanks and current state with full tanks and everything it carries.

Charlie

[Ullie]

I would get the 305/70R19.5 if you can make it work with room and gearing.
Your weight will always be more than you think and the 305 XZA in 18 ply rating has almost 500kg more load capacity than the 285 XDE+. It also has almost 6% bigger footprint which will make a difference on sand.
Are you going to fit the same tires on front, I hope so in a 4X4! Will they fit at full lock?
My Unimog "gained" 2.6 tons in the rear between pickup at Unicat with empty tanks and current state with full tanks and everything it carries.

Charlie

We will put the same tyres in front because it's a permanent 4X4. They should fit without any changes.

[dzzz]

Mercedes truck division is good at giving advice. It seems to make no difference if you purchase a new truck or a used truck out of warranty. Are you keeping the hydraulic feet?

[dzzz]

Hi Ulrich,

Nice truck! There is an english couple selling a similar vehicle on ebay at the moment:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mercedes-814DA-4x4-overland-motorhome-four-wheel-drive-/250643725326?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_Campers_Caravans_Motorhomes&hash=item3a5b87bc0e

Personally I think the ground clearance and departure angle of their box, and the huge overhang make this 814 unsuitable for off-road use and I think it largely negates the benefit of having a 4x4 driveline.


I agree about the limitation of that truck. I wonder what the weight distribution measures? All the heavy stuff must be right behind the cab.

But it looks like an excellent price if the build is high quality. Just a tradeoff between rough road and living space.

[Ullie]

Mercedes truck division is good at giving advice. It seems to make no difference if you purchase a new truck or a used truck out of warranty. Are you keeping the hydraulic feet?

Officialy we may not change the tyres in Belgium, the vehicle will not pass the technical inspection we have to go to every year. So we will have to change the wheels every year. But that's peanuts in comparising with what I have to rebuild every year now with our Nissan. (Bodylift, suspensionlift, wheels)

The hydraulic feet are mounted on the hilift chassis. So we will lose them. Also do they take to much place and limit the ground clearance in the back to much.

[whatcharterboat]

Hi Ulrich,

Did you get them email I sent to your home address today from work regarding our experience with Toyo M608z Vs Michelin XDE2+?

John.

[Anton2k3]

Hi Ullie,

Do you have any information on where you intent to get your single rear wheels from?

Thanks,

Anthony

[Ullie]

Hi Ulrich,

Did you get them email I sent to your home address today from work regarding our experience with Toyo M608z Vs Michelin XDE2+?

John.

Yes I got it and I send you an answer. Thank you very much for your information.

[Ullie]

Hi Ullie,

Do you have any information on where you intent to get your single rear wheels from?

Thanks,

Anthony

http://www.twigatravelcars.nl/

This is a firm not so far from where we are living and the owner also has the same vehicle type als we have, with toyo tyres.

[Ullie]

Thank you very much all for your information.

With all the information I've got from the different forums and e-mails, we have decided to buy the toyo M608.


Ulrich

[motrjay]

Hey, I am looking at converting a very similar vehicle to yours (814 4x4 ex-Utility Crane) any updates on your conversion?

[Anton2k3]

Hey motrjay, i'm just coming to the end of converting my 814d, not 4x4 (wish it was) but same otherwise. I'll post some progress pics up in a new thread when I get a chance if it helps.

[ianc]

Ullie,
Did you end up sourcing and fitting single rear wheels?
I'd be interested in where you ended up getting them and seeing a photo.

Many Thanks

Ian

[Ullie]

Here a picture of our vario 4X4 in its current form.

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/422427_3507671289813_1212735488_4635936_1371053895 _n.jpg

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/423569_3507673849877_1212735488_4635940_506454024_ n.jpg

Tyres are Toyo tyre M608, 285/70 R19,5
We bought the rims at Twiga Travel car. (http://twigatravelcars.nl/index.html)

[ianc]

Ullie,
The van is looking great!
Did you (or Twiga) have to do any work on the van before fitting the single rims?

The reason I ask is because an email request about the conversion to Twiga suggested it could only be done in their workshop!

I'm also looking to embark on a very similar project so any other build information you can share either publically or privately would be very much appreciated.

Regards

Ian

[Ullie]

No work to do to fit the single rims. At the fender its a tight fit, but it fits, even with suspension full loaded. (We've tested it to see if there could be a problem going off-road.)

Build information? We sold the crane, which was a platform you just had to unscrew and cut the powercables and hydraulic liquid tubes.
Then we builded the subchassis ourself and than the vehicle was brought to a cabine builder to build a cabin. (www.ormocar.de) Now we are going to do the interieur ourself again.
We had to ask a permission to Mercedes to rebuild the vehicle as a camper avoid further administration problems in the future.

If you want to have a website with a lot of information about building on a vario and vehicle specifications, I can recommend http://4x4fulltiming.com/default.aspx


Good luck with your build.

[ianc]

Great - Thanks for that Ullie

[ianc]

Ullie,
I took the plunge and bought a Vario 4x4 in auction yesterday. Three questions if I may -
1) Can I ask you the approx cost of the single wheel conversion? PM me if you're ok sharing but don't want to post publicly.
2) What was Ormocar like to deal with? They are top of my list for the box but I just wanted to check with someone with firsthand experience.
It looks like you changed the front fender (bumper). Where did you source it?

Thanks Again

Ian

[Ullie]

Ullie,
I took the plunge and bought a Vario 4x4 in auction yesterday. Three questions if I may -
1) Can I ask you the approx cost of the single wheel conversion? PM me if you're ok sharing but don't want to post publicly.
2) What was Ormocar like to deal with? They are top of my list for the box but I just wanted to check with someone with firsthand experience.
It looks like you changed the front fender (bumper). Where did you source it?

Thanks Again

Ian

1) Rims and tyres included we came up to +/- 3500 €
2) Ormocar was superb. We had our drawings with measurements (inside measurements foor everything is the easyist for them, so they will make the outside fit) of what we wanted, and they builded it like that. When they had doubts, they phoned us to know what to do. Before signing the contract, we had a visit at the workshop and they showed us everything and they even gave us details for things we wanted to do ourself. Also afterwards, they gave us usefull tips on how to realise some things. I really recommend to get in contact with them to visit their workshop and have discussions about what you want te build. They are super friendly and willing to help you. Proof of the quality and customer minded approach is the number of vehicles waiting to be build up.
First contact we had with Ormocar was at Bad Kissingen.
3) We want to fit a bullbar and therefore we changed the fender. We build it ourself. (my father-in-law is a very good welder) The bullbar still has to be made, also by my father-in-law.

Good luck with your build.

[ianc]

Thanks for that. I'm heading over to Bad Kissingen next weekend and will meet up with Ormocar guys. Send me that father-in-law when you're finished with him :-)

[incognito]

Hy, i would keep the rear double wheels.
just did a 8 month 25 000 miles tour of the Usa with a Sprinter double wheels( a little bit of offroad also) and double are stronger, get you a better rear grip and for safety reasons is a lot better if you have a puncture at high speed or even off road you can continue becose you'll force less the rear tires let's say going uphill with a lot of load on a sharp rock gravel road . and dually or singles in the rear you will have the same rigid suspension, which in fact is the problem of the double rear wheels trucks going offroad.

here is my Mercedes Sprinter conversion:
https://picasaweb.google.com/107357551176877076198/MySprinterConversion

I want to sell the sprinter and by a vario 4x4 and convert it for Europe trips next year. I'll leave the double wheels in the back but will try to buy a system to deflate the tires by a button which is great having offroad. Is there a company in Europe how sells this sytems ( Saw them on Unimogs)

I have some questions : WHICH USED VARIO IS BETTER THOSE BEFORE 1997 OR 1997 TO PRESENT?
Do the newer ones (1997 and up ) have the same complicated electronics as the Sprinters? is there an affordable scanner tool available for the Vario ?
which is the maximum speed for a Vario, didn't find that information on web.
have safe travels
incognito

[Anton2k3]

hi incognito,

The main problem people seem to have with double rears (when used off-road) is rocks getting caught between the two tyres which can potentially puncture both.

I'm still not sure whether to change to singles, but by doing so would get more ground clearance. That with some spacer blocks would improve off-road capabilities.

Sorry I cant really help with questions, apart from speed one. Our vario (fully laden, tanks full etc) will easily do 70 on motorways, and tops out around 85 (on a long flat). However, ours is the 2x4, not 4x4....not sure if that will make a difference.

[Ullie]

Single tyres is also better in loose sand. Front and rear wheels follow the same path, with double tyres, they have to make a new path for the back tyres.

No idea if the older Vario is better than the one's after 1997. There are such a lot of different versions after 1997 that it is very difficult to say what's better. The recent Vario's have ad blue, our (1998) doesn't. Maybe recent vario's have more electrics, but oure has not got much electrics. Just simple basis electrics.

We have a 814 (7,5 tons possible and 140 horse power) and it runs easely 110 km/h on the motor way. But in europe you're limited tot 90 km/h because its heavier than 3,5 tons). With the single wheels (bigger diameter) we drive 90 km/h at 1800 t/min of the engine.

[LukeH]

Speaking from personal (and costly) experience. The twins in soft sand are no better or worse than singles. The tyre that follows in the fron tracks is on disturbed sand so grips less, the trye that rides on new sand grips better. The two major problems are:
stones in between (as mentioned they puncture both tyres, slowly by wear)
But also if you air down twins the tyres end up touching. The contact between tyres heats up a surprising amount ans on or other (if not both) will blow out spectacularly. I know this because it happened to me crossing the Banc d'Arguin park. I was furious with our "guide" because he harassed us to air further down than I wanted and then let us on a wacky races style chase between dunes at speeds my poor old Daily didn't like.

[Nigel Evans]

My 1998 814D 4x4 has no electronics or particulate filter. On it's current Michelin XZT 215/75R17.5 it red lines at 65mph. I'm no expert at airing down but I'm not convinced this will work with 17.5 or 19.5 rims. Perhaps someone has experience?

[incognito]

Hy,
that is i want the system which deflates the tires by pushing a button, for sand and sharp rocks . a very important thing : mercedes are heavy trucks that is why the stress especially for the rear wheels add a camper box and all the equipment and will be heavier. with double tires also it will sink less in sand, mud.
http://blog.travelpod.com/travel-blog-entries/loupsvoyagent/1/1318977789/tpod.html#pbrowser/loupsvoyagent/1/1318977789/filename=18_vers-telluride.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjjPco80Q5Q
https://picasaweb.google.com/107357551176877076198/Sprinter

last dollar road very nice if you go from Ouray, Co to Telluride, Co. at one point i came back becose the road was too bad and my tires and suspension too stiff . i had the impression that every bolt will become loose becose was too much vibration inside.that is when i realised that stiff suspension of Mercedes trucks with double rims in the back , which is very good when adding the weight of a camper, will need deflated tires on bad roads.
at 75 mph on highway with double in the rear i feel safer.

https://picasaweb.google.com/107357551176877076198/Sprinter

have safe travels
incognito

[ianc]

Just an observation but no Dakar race or support trucks have double rear wheels and I can't think of any Unimogs with doubles.....

[grizzlyj]

Doubles or duals? ;)

[ianc]

4 wheels per axle

[incognito]

6x6 like the new sprinter oberaigner 6x6 or Pinzgauer 6x6

that is the best traction and weight distribution a truck or camper can get.some day maybe i hope i'll be able to buy a Sprinter 6x6 and make my second conversion.

the system i was talking about for going off-road is called central tire inflation system. maybe somebody knows a system like this which can be fit to a Mb Vario ?
incognito

[grizzlyj]

4 wheels per axle

I was taking the mickey, note the ;), sorry!

[grizzlyj]

This company's site says suitable for all wheeled vehicles and trailers. No experience just a google search.

http://www.military-mobility.eu/

I had a play with a Unimog with CTIS and 395/85R20 tyres, and deflating from road pressure to about 20psi took ages! I'm not sure its quicker than by hand :( Inflation too (with the higher output water cooled compressor) was slow. More than long enough to put the kettle on. Nice but expensive perhaps!?

Jason

:)

[DzlToy]

quick inflation and deflation can be accomplished by using Agricultural valve stems which are quite a bit larger than traditional Schrader valve stems. A matching air chuck will be needed. Powertank sells what they call Monster Valves: http://www.powertank.com/products/sfID1/15 that are essentially the same thing.

For a Central Tire Inflation System to work you must have a pretty robust on board air system and your hubs must be swapped or modified to allow the center air line to pass through them. Not something that is DIY or easily done on most 4WD axles/hubs. Additionally the system has many small parts like seals and o-rings that if not properly maintained in an off road environment, will cause failure, probably when its most needed.

[incognito]

hy,

maybe you are right too much trouble with a central tire inflation system. i've looked at the video with Monster valves looks quite nice.so maybe a good 12v compressor and some Monster valves for fast inflation/deflation will do the job. do you know a powerful 12v compressor for using offroad?
thanks
mike

[docka]

Ullie- any chance of some more photos of your conversion, the ones embedded in the thread aren't working for me...
Thanks

[Ullie]

http://sphotos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/421804_3507672249837_562343399_n.jpg

http://sphotos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/320528_2718539362008_1617975975_n.jpg

http://sphotos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/39562_1676514272032_3563716_n.jpg

[ianc]

Ullie - What's the height of your van?

[docka]

Thanks for the pics, looking good!
Would you recommend the Toyo tyres?

[Dragonsmaug]

Thank You for the pics of the wheels . I am also considering swapping my vario 814da wheels to 19.5 I would be grateful to know how it feels to drive on the bigger wheels , one of the problems with mine is the that 1st is too high and my low ratio is only about half a gear lower.Do you find that you are changing gear more frequently ? Do the ratios feel well spaced ? Chris147340

[Ullie]

For me, the vehicle is driving much better with the bigger wheels. More stable and you drive 90 km/h at 1800 t/min, so lower fuell consumption. The ratios feel well spaced and we are certainly not changing gear more frequently as before.
The total hight of our vehicle is 3,70 m.

I would definitely recommend the toyo tyres.

[docka]

Ullie - what sort of figures are you getting on your fuel usage please?

[Dragonsmaug]

Ullie - what sort of figures are you getting on your fuel usage please?

Tyres will be a factor I am on 9.5 R17.5 Michelin XYZ I am getting 13.5 Lit/100K mainly cruising at 90k/ hr so about 20 mpg on long trips , west africa and back.I hope this helps
Chris

[docka]

Thanks for that Chris. Is yours a 4x2 or 4x4?

[Dragonsmaug]

Docka
Its 4X4 purpose built motorhome I had been looking to buy a 4x4 van or chassis cab to build my own but this was too good to miss154306 Chris

[docka]

Looks good Chris! Any more pics?
How are you finding it drives does it cope with the terrain etc?

[Dragonsmaug]

I put a winch on the front on the basis that I will be lucky to find anything big enough to tow it out if stuck and so far have not needed it. I reversed the rear spring hangers to give it another 4 inches of ground clearance at the back and fitted helper air bags on the front axle . I have dragged the back end on the ground a few times and am now modding the chassis and the box to improve the ground clearance. In soft sand with the tyres pressures down to 15 psi it did better than to toyotas and a TD5 defender. I would prefer a lower low 1st as it feels only half a gear lower than high 1st Chris

154320

154321

[Ullie]

Ullie - what sort of figures are you getting on your fuel usage please?

+/- 18 litres for 100 km

[docka]

+/- 18 litres for 100 km
Thanks Ullie
So it seems the single/larger wheel conversion offers around 4.5l/100km worse economy so nearer 15mpg, not taking in to account driving style/environmental factors. I know that's a very rough estimate but it helps bring it in to perspective, thanks. I was expecting the singles to do better than the duals!
Anyone else have any figures to add to this?

[Ullie]

Thanks Ullie
So it seems the single/larger wheel conversion offers around 4.5l/100km worse economy so nearer 15mpg, not taking in to account driving style/environmental factors. I know that's a very rough estimate but it helps bring it in to perspective, thanks. I was expecting the singles to do better than the duals!
Anyone else have any figures to add to this?

With our normal wheels, it runs +/- 19 litres for 100 km
So better milage with the bigger wheels.

[Dragonsmaug]

The shape, size and weight of the vehicles are probable as important as tyre size but I am surprised by the difference.

[andylod]

Docka
We seem to achieve 19-20 mpg but that is at 2100rpm which is 65mph on our 265-70-17.5 tyres (singles). It does get a lot better at 90 kmh which i think is approx 1800 rpm but i havnt managed to stay at that speed for long enough to measure it.

Andy

[docka]

Cheers Andy
Any particular reason you stayed with the 17.5" wheels whilst converting to singles - tyre availability/price?

[andylod]

long storey really .... it came down to gearing and wanting a bit more ground clearance and wider tyres plus we intended to fit diff lock. The easiest diff to get hold of was 43/11 from an atego, and we didn't want to change our overall gearing as towing capabilities are important to us , so going from 40/11 standard diff to 43/11, the extra rolling circumference
of the new 265/70/17.5 brought our overall ratio back to standard. The 19.5's would have taken our gearing up far to much for us, probably ok for a standard van but not when towing 3.5 tons. We can sit at 90kmh towing in top gear but with the higher gearing we would be in 4th a lot of the time.
The gearing on the 4x4's is a lot lower so the 19.5's bring their gearing up to about the same as a standard 2wd van.

Hope this helps
Andy

[Anton2k3]

Andy, is there any reason that you couldn't do the diff lock conversion with the diff which is already on the van? I understand you wanted to build it on a bench, but would it have been possible with your original diff?

Thanks

[andylod]

Andy, is there any reason that you couldn't do the diff lock conversion with the diff which is already on the van? I understand you wanted to build it on a bench, but would it have been possible with your original diff?

Thanks

Anton .... yeh definitely now i would say its very possible, but then i didnt have any information, pictures, parts lists or any idea a standard 2wd diff could be retro converted to have a diff lock fitted.... so practicing on another diff and having the physical parts in front of me seemed the best way without taking my van off the road.......also I wanted the bigger wheels but keeping the same overall gearing so changing the diff/final gearing was the solution .... gave the new casing a good coat of hammerite tonight so i'm hoping to fit it within a week or so :-)
Andy

[Anton2k3]

I'm looking forward to it! How are you plumbing the actuator in? Did you get pipes etc from merc?



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[andylod]

No, 8mm pvc air pipe and push fittings are a very standard thing. The rear tank has 2 end bungs in it, I have an PLC airline connector in one end for tyre inflation, and the other end is a fitting with a standard 8mm push fit street elbow. Pipe from that to the in cab PTO switch, http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PTO-SWITCH-PULL-PUSH-PTO-IN-CAB-CONTROL-/171026273456?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CommercialVe hicleParts_SM&hash=item27d1f5d4b0 from the switch back to rear axle and onto Diff lock actuator. ... Simples

[Anton2k3]

Great, and no doubt cheaper than merc parts! So, are you going to be writing up a guide with pics for us rear diff lock wannabes? Are you still considering 4x4, or will this suffice?

I've been giving it some thought recently, and although the dream was always 4x4, I'm not entirely convinced its practicable for us. From what I've found out so far, it would reduce top end , and increase fuel economy due to it being permanent. Storing and dismantling a van while i swap things over also seems to be a hassle. And how often will we be doing serious off roading, which would warrant full 4x4, I'm not sure of. Anyhoo, that's where I'm at on 4x4 vs. rear diff lock.

Did the bench tests see everything working correctly?


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[andylod]

I think thats a sensible option. Sand seems to be the only time 4wd would be great for our size of van although i think flat tyres and diff lock might work, Off road, down stoney undulating lanes and a slimy fields seems to be the norm.... being able to gently manoeuvre over an obstacle instead of using momentum and consequently hearing the entire contents of your cupboards being shaken to bits...... the diff lock will definitely help with this.

Yeh the tests are all good :-) ... i will do a proper write up and post it on the Diff lock thread.
Andy

[docka]

Great, and no doubt cheaper than merc parts! So, are you going to be writing up a guide with pics for us rear diff lock wannabes? Are you still considering 4x4, or will this suffice?

I've been giving it some thought recently, and although the dream was always 4x4, I'm not entirely convinced its practicable for us. From what I've found out so far, it would reduce top end , and increase fuel economy due to it being permanent. Storing and dismantling a van while i swap things over also seems to be a hassle. And how often will we be doing serious off roading, which would warrant full 4x4, I'm not sure of. Anyhoo, that's where I'm at on 4x4 vs. rear diff lock.

Did the bench tests see everything working correctly?


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One less competitor at the next auction perhaps?:drool:

[Anton2k3]

Possibly, but I'm still not decided!


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