Car Purchase with eye towards first child

[brngk]

Hi all, could really use some advice on our upcoming car purchase (DD/travel rig). I'm currently a graduate student finishing a PhD, wife is recently "retired" from science and is pursuing writing full time (e.g money is fairly tight). We've both always been avid explorers and between us have seen most of the planet. When stateside or in Mexico, we've always traveled with a little escort wagon, including a fair number of Baja's back roads (yes that was me :sombrero: ). At any rate, we're planning for our first offspring, and with 260K on our current car, and reliability issues cropping up we're shopping around. This car will primarily be tossed around southern Arizona back-roads for the next few years, with semi regular excursions into Sonora and CO,UT,NM,So Cal.

Here are some considerations

I walk to work, and in general we never drive, unless we're going on an adventure to the outdoors or grocery shopping. Our trips range from a few days to 3 weeks, and have never involved any serious rock crawling. Some Stream crossings have turned us back, moderate rutting is the worst we've encountered to date.
~20 mpg or higher would be nice.
At 6'5" and a 190 lbs, I'm not exactly the smallest guy. The escorts been ok, but after a couple of hours of driving I'm not exactly loving it.
Roof top tent has already been budgeted for, though other than beefier tires we won't have much more $$ to put into this car.
We aren't buying anything new, simply can't afford it.
One concern is rear seat room, given the space taken up by modern child seats, and having a tall driver.
I'm guessing for the first couple of years no trips beyond 2 weeks (which is more of a work limitation)
Safety is a must, Tucson drivers are horrendous, and I've seen far too many accidents and barely avoided god knows how many.
I really really hate awkward parking lot maneuvers
While I consider myself a tinkerer and have done my share of repairs on this car, I'd rather avoid it, due to school/work load.


That being said, the short list so far (looking in the $12k range). Consider 2003-2007 models of the following, though any additional suggestions are much appreciated. REALLY looking forward to something more reliable.


Suzuki Grand Vitara. Decent economy, great transferable warranty, and 4Lo option (though rear storage sucks)
4runner, this seems like a good pick, as long as I avoid ones with sunroofs (loose 2" headroom). Vintage we're looking at is
probably a bit beyond our budget =(.
RAV4 V6, great economy, ok boot space, but seems limited when it comes to offroad duty, and we know some people who've had problems with theirs.
Jeep Patriot. FDII models seems hard to find used, and there are questions about reliability
Outback/Forester. Seemed great for front legroom, and fuel economy is definitely good. Like the high safety ratings, but have heard reliability has taken a hit recently. Lots of complaints about fitting a rear facing car seat make me less than enthusiastic about this. Also, ground clearance is meh.


Thoughts and suggestions greatly appreciated.

[nbleak21]

I drove Forester 2.5 XT for a couple of weeks and it was a great little vehicle. excellent utility of space, handled very well, loved the AWD acceleration feel (of which it had plenty of get-up and go!) and the boxer engines are pretty darn reliable if maintained well.

That being said, when we were looking for a new vehicle that would work for our first born, I ended up going with an XJ cherokee. More capable offroad, decent fuel mileage if driven properly, the venerable 4.0L engine... list goes on and on.. oh, and did I mention price difference? The 02 forester with similar miles to the 2000 cherokee, was on the high side of $6k more.

Yes, It was nice, it was modern, had all the luxuries such as leather interior, sunroof, etc... but that $6k will be better spent on adventures then it will sitting in the sheet metal itself.

[Honu]

used to have a suzuki grand viagra :)

great rig and did super well off road ! forgot our year but about a 2005 or so the true frame ones and we had 1 kid then and plenty of room for basic stuff
some aftermarket stuff also available
compared to the others the suzuki are very reliable my old samurai never had issues and the reason we called it the viagra was it was so hard and strong all the time
wife liked to drive it better than our tacoma 4x4 dual cab as it was easier to park etc..

I think for me it would be the subaru or the suzuki depending on what you like to drive better ?

if you are leaning toward a better offroad rig then the suzuki would be my pic if you want a more road friendly then the subaru might be my pick ?

in your #4 post with the tent ? I might say the suzuki as beefier tires etc.. and a tent will work and look better and I remember seeing a few small lifts for the suzukis that were nice setups

[washington taco]

Look for a third gen 4 Runner 2002 over a 100,000 miles with proof of the timing belt change and you can drive to 200,000 with little maintenance!

[GroupSe7en]

Find somebody with a 3yr old and see how much front-to-back space is required to fit them in their car seat. You'll be shocked. Some things to look out for are a rear seat that is too upright because in order to get the car seat comfortable you have to recline it some. That eats up about 6 inches of your back seat. We just sold our Frontier Crew Cab because we just couldn't shove our 2 1/2 year old into the back seat anymore. Plus we're thinking we might need to dump our Suzuki Areo because the little guy just keeps growing.

I know you're thinking infants and rear-facing car seats, but, you'll really only use one for 6-9 months. If you want to keep your new car for a while, borrow a friends kid and take their car seat with you when you go shopping.

Thinking ahead, how many kids are you planning on? I wasn't thinking about the car at all when we had our 3rd until I tried to fit the 3rd car seat in the back - Oh-oh! Had to buy a Suburban because it was the only thing wide enough to fit 3 car seats side-by-side.

Also, get something big enough that you can easily get them in and out of it. You have no idea what a pain it is leaning into the car to squeeze a 30 lb kid (wearing a winter coat) into a too-small space - in the rain.

I would suggest waiting a bit until you've got some parenting experience under your belts and then you'll know a lot more about what makes sense for you.

6'5" and car seats - you might need to buy a bus. LOL

Good luck,
Mark

[troy]

I agree with what's stated above. I don't own one, but have been impressed with the Suzuki community and knowledge there. try poking around www.zuwharrie.com Mostly samurai based, but still lots of info on Grand-Vs. They are a simple truck, but a good value in my opinion.

You mentioned complaints on the rear-facing car seats in the Subaru, but just realize that kids are only in those for 1 - 1 1/2 years. The only rig that would be comfortable for you (6 foot+) with one, is a fullsize like a suburban. We have a rear facer right now and my wife's mazda is miserable and my XJ is tolerable, and the seat can only be put in the middle so it protrudes between the front seats a little.

You're coming from an escort wagon, so do you really want a truck-based SUV? Car-based will almost always win in Mpgs.

I have an XJ and two little ones (1yr and 3yr). It has worked well for me an it is not too big. They might be a little old for your needs, but have you thought about a Jeep Grand Cherokee, specifically 2002-2004? It'll be in your price range, 2002-2004 have the best reliablility of all years (especially with V8). V8 models still get near 20 mpg on highway, and they are small enough to park easily.

I like the idea of a 4 runner, but i think it would be pushing your budget to get a new enough/low mileage unit.

BTW - kids really make exploring fun. You'll notice things you would have passed by before. Everyting gets simplified and more complicated at the same time. It's fun.

[Ford Prefect]

I would also steer you towards a Grand Cherokee.

If you go with the V8, in the 99-04 (WJ) models you can get about 24 mpg, which is amazing for that thing. (Important note the V8 gets FAR BETTER mileage than the I6, so be sure you get the BIGGER engine, this is because the engine was totally redesigned for this jeep, but the 6 was the same until the next model GC) I made the mistake of getting the I-6 and I get about 17 in town. My folks had the v8 and they were the ones who told me about the higher rating.

I too am 6'5, and about 245lbs, so, I can tell you that I fit very comfortably in that rig.

Take only $150 and buy yourself a Tera-flex 2"budget boost lift, and you will have a great truck that will take you where you want to go. Be sure you note where the air intake is so you know if you can pass a stream or not. Otherwise you could always go with a snorkel.

By the way, there is a simple modification that you can do to the seats in the rear which allow me to sleep in the back of my jeep WJ very comfortably.

I have a 2.5 year old and we put him in the middle of the rear seat when he was rear facing. This is, in part, because it is safer there. We got the Chico systems car seat, and we got the bigger one, so it was a little harder to fit behind the seat, but we could do it if we wanted. My wife is only 5'10, and she would have to move her seat up a touch, but it was fine. Now that he is front facing she could slide her seat all the way back, but he is getting taller and she wanted him to have more leg room. By the way I fit in the seat behind me very comfortably, but the child in the car seat, his legs end up pointing more straight out than would an adult.

Another point to putting the seat in the middle. It is easy to still stick it in from either side, but it is also easy to mess with the child from both front seats. (like putting a pacifier in, or giving the child a bottle.)

Another rig you might be able to look into would be an M-class Benz. They are super nice, and they have the air ride shocks that can lift the truck 3" on demand. Plus you can get an good older one for in your price range very easily.


Good luck in your decision.

[shogun]

Here are some considerations

I walk to work, and in general we never drive, unless we're going on an adventure to the outdoors or grocery shopping. Our trips range from a few days to 3 weeks, and have never involved any serious rock crawling. Some Stream crossings have turned us back, moderate rutting is the worst we've encountered to date.
~20 mpg or higher would be nice.
At 6'5" and a 190 lbs, I'm not exactly the smallest guy. The escorts been ok, but after a couple of hours of driving I'm not exactly loving it.
Roof top tent has already been budgeted for, though other than beefier tires we won't have much more $$ to put into this car.
We aren't buying anything new, simply can't afford it.
One concern is rear seat room, given the space taken up by modern child seats, and having a tall driver.
I'm guessing for the first couple of years no trips beyond 2 weeks (which is more of a work limitation)
Safety is a must, Tucson drivers are horrendous, and I've seen far too many accidents and barely avoided god knows how many.
I really really hate awkward parking lot maneuvers
While I consider myself a tinkerer and have done my share of repairs on this car, I'd rather avoid it, due to school/work load.




Some of your criteria are generic vehicle issues that cant be solved due to competing demands.

Safety means no airbags wherever the offspring may sit during the ownership of the vehicle.

Parking issues mean reasonable visibilty and power steering. You may have visibility issues with any of the cute-utes mentioned, but I've never driven them.

Easy/cheap repairs mean older vehicle with simple systems, which is competing demand.

Rear seat room is another competing demand.

Off-raod ability means a real 4wd system with minimum mods/upgrades. Just because the cute-ute says 4wd doesnt mean its worth anything other than "mall-rated". Also consider a popular 4wd model due to availability and cost of parts/upgrades (try finding 5 choices for lift kits for the subaru).

RTT may not work on the cute-utes mentioned.

Social acceptability is a problem you have to deal with amongst the aquaintances/coworkers and whether you allow them to dictate your purchase decisions.

Offspring considerations; get a four door anything. You will be in and out of the back seat alot and your concern is doing it quickly (like diapers) and with minimum discomfort(a lift is really to make it easier to do the belts, not for off-roading). As mentioned, the rear-facing seat is temporary (unfortunately). Place the offspring where you can easily see it, to check for "issues" (not necessarily right behind you). Look for three-point rear seat belts, and most vehicles now have LATCH (which is inconvenient). Get a good seat, not a cheap attractive one, the three way stroller/carrier/carseat ones are a good first seat. Dont ever let the words "carsick" cross your lips.

Specifics based on my experience?
XJs are very inexpensive, available, easy to work on, more or less invisable, good off-raod out of the box with many aftermarket parts available. Good cargo space, easy to drive, good vis (get it tinted). Motors last many miles if minimally cared for. A friend got one for DD and offspring transport, kept it stock, and it works for him.

The other jeeps (wrangler/tj/ whatever they're called) are good also, with obvious cargo limitations. But then you have the social limitations mentioned above (they may not like it). Heck, get the 4 cyl to make them happy. Lots of parts, good seat room, cheap/easy to fix. Two-door limitations also.

The forrester is getting good reviews, but I dont think you'll get a RTT on it, or lift it, or get through some of the wash crossings with it. But you will definately keep the colleagues happy.

[05LR3AZ]

The first vehicle that came to mind when I started reading your intro was 'Subaru'. The fuel economy and space in these seems to stand out.

I've owned a 4Runner which I highly recommend. I got 200k out of mine with very little concern! Great reliability and definite off-road potential. Of the vehicles you listed it seems that it is better suited to a RTT also. There's no need to start modifying it immediately, maybe tires and your RTT and call it good. I'm sure there are some that fit within your budget (bargain tough!)

Have fun!

[R_Lefebvre]

The child seating and cost issues are why we bought a minivan. It's the ONLY vehicle that is cheap to purchase and run that easily takes car seats, and has tons of storage in the back.

Just sayin.

Our LWB Montana has an over 500 mile range with a 25 gallon fuel tank. Can store anything we throw at it, and there's plenty of room for car seats. And it's as off-road capable as your Escort. :)

I can't get a rear facing car seat into our Land Rover. Luckily Elise is already 20 lbs, so we can legally turn her around and can start using the truck soon.

[Honu]

correction I think our suzuki was more like a 2003 or so :) but two years before they swtiched off the true fame models
also the islands used to get ones you cant get on the mainland ? with dif options basically but the basics were the same as the mainland U.S. ones


one thing I can say I had a lot of friends with jeeps ? and while I like them they were always seeming to have small issues things like door handles falling off to strange issues that were making it run funny or quit starting etc.. and a few large ones like new transmission etc.. but every one of my buds who had a jeep had it in the shop at one time or another ? the two suzukis I had and a few friends that had them never went to the shop the only thing I did was change the oil kept up the fluids and got new tires when needed they were very very reliable

[The Adam Blaster]

I have experience, just eye-ball criticisms... In regards to a "car" and putting the young'uns in the back seat -- I'd see a lot of sore backs from bending over.
I like SUV's or vans for that duty, less chance of back strain. ;)

I do like Subarus though, despite never owning one myself. They seem to have a pretty good reputation for longevity.
When the kids are a bit older, and they can climb into the boosters seats themselves, the Subie would be a good option.


And Rob, I've just started to strongly consider getting a Dodge Grand Caravan for my daily driving and family travelling duties. I'm going to sell the '02 Durango and when I get the cash from that, start looking for a used Gr. Car.
I really like the D. but it doesn't do everything I need it to do, and it's not the greatest on gas. The Gr. Car. can also hold a 4x8 sheet of building material with the seats folded down, that's something I want to be able to do with my next vehicle.

Plus, I've never felt the stigma of a minivan, my dad has had 5 of them over the years, so it was my highschool transport vehicle. It can hold A LOT of camping gear behind the 2nd row of seats! ;)

[haven]

"I see a lot of sore backs from bending over. I like SUV's or vans for that duty, less chance of back strain."

x2. Take a car seat to the dealership and see how much the parents-to-be have to bend over when helping a kid to get buckled in. If you have to bend much, look for a taller vehicle. Your back will thank you many times each week.

I also recommend adjusting the front seat, then checking how much room is available for the infant car seat, which has the child riding backwards. That car seat is a lot longer than the ride-facing-forward model.

Since each outing with a small child includes all sorts of stuff, a vehicle with lots of cargo room is a must. Imagine two moms and their offspring going to the park. They practically need a U-Haul. So get a large vehicle.

Check out the Ford Flex. Lots of room, decent mpg, no minivan stigma. For the two or three times a year you need 4x4, rent a Tahoe.

[R_Lefebvre]

Yes, the Flex is actually an excellent vehicle. It has more rear seat "legroom" (read: babyseat room) than pretty much anything. It's AMAZING. And, no "minivan stigma".

However, my wife LOVED the van when she was 8 months pregnant and schlepping the 4 year old around in the car. Since the door slides completely out of the way... no bending over to do up his buckles. It makes a big difference.

I think the move away from minivans and into SUV's/Crossovers is just ridiculous. How silly. Since when was carting a family around supposed to be about looking cool? Or rather, why is choosing the most suitable vehicle for a mission uncool? I don't understand how "wasting" a 4x4 vehicle by using it to cart your kids to the mall is so much cooler.

[The Adam Blaster]

I think the move away from minivans and into SUV's/Crossovers is just ridiculous. How silly. Since when was carting a family around supposed to be about looking cool? Or rather, why is choosing the most suitable vehicle for a mission uncool? I don't understand how "wasting" a 4x4 vehicle by using it to cart your kids to the mall is so much cooler.

10000000% agree with you on these points!
The only reason we have a Pontiac Torrent is because my wife was less than logical about our needs with the little one coming along, and "wasn't ready" to drive a minivan just yet.
Now the little guy is 2, and with all the stuff of his that she likes to take with us, she's ready to concede to a minivan.
I wish she would have been ready 2 years ago, would have saved us a decent chunk of change. :rolleyes:

[nwoods]

4 Runner, diesel Jeep Liberty, Honda Element e-Camper

[shogun]

4 Runner, diesel Jeep Liberty, Honda Element e-Camper

Always thought the Element would be cool with;

1. 4" lift
2. reasonable power
3. real 4wd system

Buuuuutt, it was designed for the younger gen-x demographic and surprisingly failed there, and is popular with the 40-60 segment.

[6Pins]

Buuuuutt, it was designed for the younger gen-x demographic and surprisingly failed there, and is popular with the 40-60 segment.

You know that Gen-X is defined by being born between 1961 and 1981 right? :)

I'd second the Grand Cherokee, we had one after the Audi wagon was totaled and it lasted us up until we had kid #3 and the eldest was just miserable being squished between two car seats. I can't stand the seating position on mini-vans, so we always had either wagons or and SUV.

Element would be a good choice too, since it has the rubber floor. Whatever you get, make sure you get leather interior. You can't imagine the filth that kids put off and if you get cloth seats, you're looking at a myriad of stains and buying seat covers.

[GroupSe7en]

...and is popular with the 40-60 segment.

HEY! Watch it buddy - or I'll take you over my knee. LOL :sombrero:

[shogun]

You know that Gen-X is defined by being born between 1961 and 1981 right? :)



No I didnt. I thought there was a "me" generation, and something else in there also. Figured GX was post 1980s.

[spikemd]

I put in a vote for a 4Runner. :smiley_drive:

I have a fourth gen (2003-2010) and love it. I love my Range Rover even more, but unless you can do all your own maintenance, I wouldn't recommend it.

My 4Runner fits three carseats across the back as I have three little ones from 3 months to 3 years old. Its my wife's DD.

Still have plenty of room in the back and with a roof rack, you can fit tons of gear.

I have the V8, which I love, but the V6 gets slightly better gas mileage. (1-2mpg)

With AT or MT tires, in stock form it is a very capable vehicle.

I recommend the 4th over the 3rd gen simply for space. I almost bought a 3rd gen, but I felt cramped in the interior. I am 6'2" and I can only imagine what 6'5" must feel like. Drive both and make the call.

You can pick up a 4th gen now for the $10K range and it will last you a long time with basic maintenance.

Good luck.

[pskhaat]

I think the move away from minivans and into SUV's/Crossovers is just ridiculous. How silly. Since when was carting a family around supposed to be about looking cool? ... I don't understand how "wasting" a 4x4 vehicle by using it to cart your kids to the mall is so much cooler

On the flip side of that coin, any reason family-going can't be cool? A lot of folks want a 4WD and a Minivan but can't afford both. The 4WD can however cover both needs.

The crossovers are actually quite capable!




Safety means no airbags wherever the offspring may sit during the ownership of the vehicle.

Agreed.



Off-raod ability means a real 4wd system with minimum mods/upgrades. Just because the cute-ute says 4wd doesnt mean its worth anything other than "mall-rated".

Again define off-road? Off-highway? These AWD cars do surprisingly well on a vast majority of back roads.


Place the offspring where you can easily see it

You are a father, right? "offspring" and "it"?? :ylsmoke:

[Honu]

http://www.puresuzuki.com/grand_vitara2.htm

they make some cool suzuki stuff also some of the suzuki boards have had some pretty cool setups and people get into them like any other vehicle
with aftermarket bumpers and lifts and racks and such

http://www.puresuzuki.com/SuzCov1.jpg


actually I want to get another samurai one day :) I had one back when I had a FJ40 and can say that thing fit in a few tight spots no other rig could get through !
the Vitara we had for most parts would go anywhere we wanted to

[shogun]

You are a father, right? "offspring" and "it"?? :ylsmoke:

Well, someone finally caught that. Took a while.

(I was mirroring the tone of the OP, which I found rather, uh, academic)

[R_Lefebvre]

On the flip side of that coin, any reason family-going can't be cool? A lot of folks want a 4WD and a Minivan but can't afford both. The 4WD can however cover both needs.

The crossovers are actually quite capable!


I can understand where there is a genuine desire or need for 4wd. But what I'm referring to is *everybody else*. The 99.99% of SUV/Crossover buyers that will never as much as drive on a gravel road. Or at most, drive on the dirt road in the car camping ground, or a well graded gravel road to the farmers gate market. Given how practical and affordable minivans are, I don't understand people who don't need 4wd buying SUV's just because "minivans are uncool".

We got our LWB Montana, with a few options (captains chairs, rear A/C, Side airbags, remote entry, etc.) brand new, for the same price as a Honda Fit. They were giving them away! Most people easily spend twice that amount for a compact SUV/crossover. But then, cars aren't status symbols for us. They're rapidly depreciating transportation appliances. At best they can be fun to drive, if the vehicle fits the role. At worst, when purchased only for status... they depreciate, they get keyed, they get dinged, they get rock chipped... The van is a depreciating transportation appliance for us, so most affordable vehicle that serves the role wins. My truck and trackday car are more than just simple transportation.

[pskhaat]

The 99.99% of SUV/Crossover buyers that will never as much as drive on a gravel road.

My observation is that these crossovers are prevalent in mountain climates where winter snow+ice can make one rethink the minivan. Yes, there are AWD minivans, but these come at a premium price and I would assume it is logical that the majority seeks not (or knows not to seek) AWD minivans where 4WD/AWD is needed.

Quick glance at Toyota reveals that the Sienna AWD starts at $32k (which I'm guessing by the time the dealer shoves options on you it will easily fall into the $37k category), vs. the 4Runner which options less. Just food for thought. Just one manufacturer, I know, but I can't foresee myself in any financial position to be dropping a shade under $40kUSD towards a minivan which is single- vs. dual-purpose.

Don't get me wrong, I'd drive a Minivan anywhere I could if given to me as uncool-is-the-new-cool in my life.

[R_Lefebvre]

I live in a very wintry and quite hilly place. Snow tires and FWD will get you through anything that anyone would even think to be out in. I've only ever encountered 1 hill I haven't been able to drive up. I also couldn't safely go down it. On the brakes, ABS firing, while falling (accelerating) down the hill. I had to drive it into a snowbank to get it stopped before I got going too fast. 4wd couldn't drive up it either, BTW. And when my dad tried going down it in the Yukon, he also lost control, drove it into the bank, but the weight of the truck pushed it THROUGH the bank and into a tree.

I have done rallies with Blizzaks on a FWD car where I got up hills that people with AWD cars and lesser snow tires could not.

The whole traction in snow argument is a strawman. The reality is that most people will not drive in conditions where AWD is required anyway. I know many people with AWD cars who stay home during snow storms in which we are driving around in our FWD minivan. And it's not about getting stuck either. With the majority of normal AWD cars having 3 open diffs and no TC in the recent past, you could get a Subaru stuck just by removing traction from one wheel.

[BIGdaddy]

three carseats will fit in an XJ. its just the front/back room thats an issue.

our minivan is very comfy for 5 or 6 people.

You do NOT have to buy a suburban to fit a couple kids in carseat..lol.

We've been thinking about adding something like a trooper or montero to the stable. Nice, cheap rigs that fit 5 or more comfortably.

[DrMoab]

You must not live in THAT snowy of an area. We have a Subaru outback, a Toyota Camry and of course my XJ. There have been times where my wife couldn't get the Outback...with AWD out of our driveway in the winter. The Camry? Please, don't make me laugh. During hard winter storms it stays parked and we deal with the Subi and the Jeep. front wheel drive cars are just not an option then. Granted it isn't an every day or usually even a once a month experience but it happens and I am very grateful that my wife has the option of an AWD vehicle. I wouldn't want her out on the roads in anything less.

I live in a very wintry and quite hilly place. Snow tires and FWD will get you through anything that anyone would even think to be out in. I've only ever encountered 1 hill I haven't been able to drive up. I also couldn't safely go down it. On the brakes, ABS firing, while falling (accelerating) down the hill. I had to drive it into a snowbank to get it stopped before I got going too fast. 4wd couldn't drive up it either, BTW. And when my dad tried going down it in the Yukon, he also lost control, drove it into the bank, but the weight of the truck pushed it THROUGH the bank and into a tree.

[pskhaat]

three carseats will fit in an XJ. its just the front/back room thats an issue. ...do NOT have to buy a suburban to fit a couple kids in carseat..

You do if you take extended trips.

[BIGdaddy]

You do if you take extended trips.

I guess that depends on how long you spend in the car at a time. No matter how long the trip, during the day we stop every two hours or so. At night, when they're sleeping, we just push through.

Every family's different, though. 'burbs are a good option for some.

:ylsmoke:

[pskhaat]

...just talking about storage for like a 5-6 week outing :)

[BIGdaddy]

...just talking about storage for like a 5-6 week outing :)

ahh, I see. 10-4.

[Martinjmpr]

That being said, the short list so far (looking in the $12k range). Consider 2003-2007 models of the following, though any additional suggestions are much appreciated. REALLY looking forward to something more reliable.


Suzuki Grand Vitara. Decent economy, great transferable warranty, and 4Lo option (though rear storage sucks)
4runner, this seems like a good pick, as long as I avoid ones with sunroofs (loose 2" headroom). Vintage we're looking at is
probably a bit beyond our budget =(.
RAV4 V6, great economy, ok boot space, but seems limited when it comes to offroad duty, and we know some people who've had problems with theirs.
Jeep Patriot. FDII models seems hard to find used, and there are questions about reliability
Outback/Forester. Seemed great for front legroom, and fuel economy is definitely good. Like the high safety ratings, but have heard reliability has taken a hit recently. Lots of complaints about fitting a rear facing car seat make me less than enthusiastic about this. Also, ground clearance is meh.


Thoughts and suggestions greatly appreciated.

Well, I can't speak to all your choices, but my wife has had a 2006 Grand Vitara (the first year of the "new" body style") and since I normally drive when we're together, I feel like I can speak with some authority on it.

Overall, it's a good vehicle, and she likes it. Downsides? Yes, a few.

* First off, don't even think about 20mpg. 16 is more like it, at least in the city, which is mostly how we drive (long trips we normally take my 4runner because it's quite a bit bigger.) I think we've taken a couple of long trips in the GV but I don't believe it's ever broken 20mpg. Maybe gotten as high as 19.5 but that's a stretch. For a vehicle as small as this one, that's a real disappointment, especially since it's got a 5 speed auto which should, in theory, offer better MPG. My ancient (1999) 4runner with a bigger engine and a 4 speed auto actually gets slightly better mileage on the highway. Of course, all 2006 + 4x4 GV's are full-time 4wd so that is probably a big part of the MPG equation - my 4runner has conventional 4wd so I'm in 2wd most of the time.

* Combined with the poor MPG is a gas tank that IMO is too small. I don't know what the size is (you can look it up, I'm too lazy) but I can tell you that in the city she is usually hitting the 1/4 mark at around 180 - 220 miles. I don't think I've ever put more than 13 gallons in the tank, so I'm guessing the fuel tank is ~ 15 gallons or less. Combined with the max of 18mpg on the highway that means your best case scenario is 270 miles to an empty tank.

* It's also noisy. No noisier than my 4runner or my Tacoma, but consider that my 4runner is 7 years older than the GV.

* Storage is minimal, as you well know. You do get a bit of a benefit from having the spare tire outside, but of course the downside of that is a side-opening tailgate that makes it more difficult to load large or bulky cargo.

* Speaking of poor storage, the back seats are "fold and flip" designs that use up way too much cargo room in an already small vehicle. By contrast my 4runner has seat bottoms that flip forward and then the seat back flips down to make for a much larger cargo area.

* Rear visibility is also very, very poor. Between the windows that "shrink" as you go further back and the big spare tire that makes your blind spot bigger, it's not a fun vehicle to back up in. In fact, the wife actually parks head-in in our garage, and one of my daily "chores" is that every morning before I go to work I back her truck out of the garage and put it in the driveway so she doesn't have to (from years in the military, I'm very used to backing vehicles and my 4runner parks backed-in in the garage.)

Okay, that's the downside. Now the pluses:

* It really is fun to drive. Peppy 2.7l V-6, full-time 4wd and a 5 speed auto make for a very "zippy" vehicle. I've actually never taken it on a high speed run down a dirt road but if it's anything like my AWD Subaru it should be a hoot to drive. 4 wheel independent suspension (which is a detriment in hardcore off-roading) is actually a benefit here. Steering is precise and body roll is negligible.

* Small size makes it easy to drive and park in the city.

* For a budget vehicle it's got a lot of nice features like a 6 disc CD changer in the dash that is MP3 capable and XM ready, steering wheel controls for the stereo and the cruise control, automatic climate control, rear seats that recline slightly, defrosters for the mirror and lots of little storage bins everywhere.

* Warranty coverage is pretty good - I think it's 7 years/100k on the drivetrain and AFAIK that's fully tranferable.

Overally she's very happy with it. It's the perfect "urban commando" vehicle for our unpredictible weather. In fact, she got caught in a sudden blizzard back in March and even though her rear tires were terribly worn (an issue you have to watch for since this truck has IRS) she was able to glide through the heavy snow and ice with no problems while other vehicles were spinning out.

As far as being kid-friendly, we've transported her now 7 year old grandson in this vehicle for the past 2 years and it's worked fine. The reclining rear seats help in this task, I think.

(to be continued)

[Martinjmpr]

(continued from previous post)

Your other choices: If you want to stay under $12k and you need 4wd, you're going to have difficulty finding anything with a "T" emblem that doesn't have high miles. The 4th gen 4runners (2003 - 2009) may be found in that range but the earlier V-6 models only had 4 speed automatics (they got 5 speeds in 2005 or 2006) and the V-8 models are full-time 4wd which doesn't make for good MPG. Also any 4th gen 4runner you find for $12k is likely to have over 100k on the odometer. Not a big deal IMO (my 3rd gen 4runner had 117k on it when I bought it last year) but it may be a concern.

3rd gen 4runners (1996-2002) can be found in your price range (I paid $7999 for mine last year) but understand you'll be getting an older vehicle that likely has over 100k on the clock. Also MPG is somewhat disappointing - I get 14 - 17 in the city and 18 -20 on the highway, max (that's with an automatic.) You can probably find a nice 2001 or 2002 4runner for right around $12k and it may even have less than 100k on it (I've seen that.) However, some of the 2001 - 2002 models have been having transmission problems and that can get expensive on an out-of-warranty vehicle. On the plus side, all 2001 - 2002 4runners have a very cool multi-mode transfer case that allows you to run in either 2wd, full-time 4wd with a center differential, or conventional 4wd with the center diff locked. The 3rd generations are smaller than the 4th and 5th gens, but they are amazingly capable off road. 1999 and 2000 Limited models often came with both the multi-mode T-case and a locking rear differential - the only 4runners that have ever been available from the factory with that combo (except for the 2009 Trail Edition which was only made in small numbers.)

As for the Rav4, remember that the newer, bigger Rav4 with the V-6 option didn't come out until 2007, so anything from 2006 - earlier is the smaller body style. I don't know what the market's like in your neck of the woods but around here you can't touch a 2007+ Rav 4 4wd for less than about $15k and even that would be stretching it.

However, a bigger vehicle with Toyota reliability is available: The Highlander. Because the Highlander was introduced in 2001 you may be able to find one in your price range. The Highlander IMO sort of looks like a minivan trying to be an SUV but if you have kids, that's a plus, not a minus.

Other vehicles you might consider are the Hyundai Santa Fe and the Mitsubishi Endeavor and Outlander. There are concerns about whether Mitsubishi could be leaving the US market, so that may be a concern, but the Koreans are here to stay, so that may be a safer bet.

[Martinjmpr]

Actually, the more I look at it, the better the Highlander looks. I was able to find several on CL with under 100k for $9k - $11.5k, which would be right in your price range. You can find AWD models that have a 4 cyl engine that gives you your 20mpg, but most of the ones you find will be V-6's that get ~18/20 which is still better than you'll get with any body-on-frame 4wd.

From an off-road perspective, the biggest downside to the Highlander is that AFAIK you can't lock the center diff like you can on some CUVs. However, if you think of it as basically a minivan with regular doors (which is really what it is) then it looks pretty good.

Honestly, if I didn't live in CO and didn't drive on actual 4wd trails, I'd seriously consider a Highlander as my daily driver. With kids, especially, I think it makes sense.

[R_Lefebvre]

* First off, don't even think about 20mpg. 16 is more like it, at least in the city, which is mostly how we drive (long trips we normally take my 4runner because it's quite a bit bigger.) I think we've taken a couple of long trips in the GV but I don't believe it's ever broken 20mpg. Maybe gotten as high as 19.5 but that's a stretch. For a vehicle as small as this one, that's a real disappointment, especially since it's got a 5 speed auto which should, in theory, offer better MPG. My ancient (1999) 4runner with a bigger engine and a 4 speed auto actually gets slightly better mileage on the highway. Of course, all 2006 + 4x4 GV's are full-time 4wd so that is probably a big part of the MPG equation - my 4runner has conventional 4wd so I'm in 2wd most of the time.


Holy crap! Really? That's little better than what I get in my Land Rover, and everybody is always talking about how "bad" *they* are. Used to get 16-18 stock, now about 14-16, though I can still see 18 if I really try.


You must not live in THAT snowy of an area. We have a Subaru outback, a Toyota Camry and of course my XJ. There have been times where my wife couldn't get the Outback...with AWD out of our driveway in the winter. The Camry? Please, don't make me laugh. During hard winter storms it stays parked and we deal with the Subi and the Jeep. front wheel drive cars are just not an option then. Granted it isn't an every day or usually even a once a month experience but it happens and I am very grateful that my wife has the option of an AWD vehicle. I wouldn't want her out on the roads in anything less.


Well, it's all a matter of perspective I guess.

Up in Barrie, a good snowfall would drop about 12" per 24 hours. We were never immobilized with FWD vehicles, mostly due to effective plowing. If your roads aren't plowed... well yeah, it'll be hard. I don't think I've ever seen more than 6" of snow on the roads, which an FWD car can do. 4" is common (build up between rounds of plowing) and that's hardly enough to slow a FWD car with snow tires.

More importantly, and the reason I used the word "wintry" instead of snowy, is ice. I learned to drive in Montreal, which is very icy. Hell, I used to ice race, won the local championship in 99 with a FWD car, with the Blizzaks putting down the same time as AWD cars with lesser tires.

Hills? It was a 20% ice covered hill that I made it up on the rally, passing AWD cars on the way. Of course, that was a VW Fox, with 70% weight on the front wheels and curb weight of only 2200lbs, so it's not like a normal FWD car. But still.

My point is, I live in Canada. Not Toronto or Vancouver, we actually get winter here, and I've NEVER wanted for AWD/4WD to get around. Yet tons of people I know in the same areas thing they need it, yet leave their SUV's parked as soon as the storms hit.

[brngk]

Holy Cow, that is an impressive response. I really appreciate it, so very good points being made. I especially like the XJ/WJ suggestion, seems I can get one with reasonable miles on it for under 10K and save the rest for adventuring. My neighbor down the street owns an XJ, so I'll give it whirl. Thanks again for all the suggestions. Hopefully I'll be able to follow this up with a new ride soon.