Shotts' 1997 Lexus "Rock Crawler" buildup:

[ShottsCruisers]

The forums are cool. On one thread we've got DesertDude building a tricked-out 1997 with all the trimmings (more like what I've done with my 2001 100-series). We need to watch his build. :coffee:

On this thread, I'm building the LX into an aggressive machine, similar to my 1993 Cruiser. We're being aggressive on everything except tires. There, I opted for BFG AT KO's for their good handling and quieter ride. (If I regret this I'll MT KM the thing, though the AT's on the 100 have taken a huge beating and never failed. We'll see!) I want to keep a good ride so this whole Lexus pruchase doesn't fail me. The goal is to build a truck I like to drive so I can leave my 100 at home MUCH more.

Here's my first round of pictures. For now I'll just point out what suspension lift is used since the rest is in the works:

Here's what was ruled out:

Slee 4 and 6" lifts...this was due to the fact they have 25% more spring rate over OME J-springs. Since this will be an unloaded truck, the stiffness would be way over the top.

Here's what's happening:

OME-based lift for a 5-inch total lift. This will allow the LX to remain garaged. At this height unless other mods are completed the truck will drive poorly. I have added whatever it takes to maintain the LX's good ride. It will be completed in two stages.

STAGE 1: (COMPLETED)

OME 850J/863J springs
OME L-series shocks
OME Steering Damper
Slee caster correction plates
Slee sway bar drop brackets
Slee front dual CV driveshaft
Custom rear bump-stops
Custom lower rear control arm skid plates

STAGE 2:

After installation of both custom steel bumpers and the Slee rock sliders the truck will then be loaded. We'll take measurements, then add:

OME trim packs F&R to level truck to 5-inches lift (up as high as 6" on front if needed to level)
Slee front and rear panhard rod adjusts (to re-center the axles)
After the above, if needed, due to vibration issues, we'll add upper rear control arm extensions and/or a rear CV driveshaft.
Alignment

At this point the lift will be complete! 5-inches and ready to rock! :ar15:

Here's the pictures/buildup:
http://shottscruisers.smugmug.com/Vehicle%20Specs%20and%20Modifications/125374

[blupaddler]

John

Looks good so far!!! It's nice to know that the Slee 4" are heavier than the J's.

So what stage is the snorkle? That wasn't mentioned, but it's already on. ;)


:)
Keep up the good work.

[Scott Brady]

I like it John. Sweet ride amigo :clapsmile

I cannot believe no one makes a 5" spring at the factory rates. I would seriously consider talking to a custom spring house.

[ShottsCruisers]

So what stage is the snorkle? That wasn't mentioned, but it's already on. ;)



Stage Zero. Snorkel = Cool Factor :D

[ShottsCruisers]

I cannot believe no one makes a 5" spring at the factory rates. I would seriously consider talking to a custom spring house.

Me too! I would KILL for J-height and stock rate. KILL! :(

[Scott Brady]

Me too! I would KILL for J-height and stock rate. KILL! :(

Do you still have the stock springs? Let me see what I can do...

[ShottsCruisers]

Do you still have the stock springs? Let me see what I can do...

GONE!

[ShottsCruisers]

Do you still have the stock springs? Let me see what I can do...

Oh, and you wouldn't want to copy the Lexus springs. SWAY SWAY WOOSEE RALLLLLPHHHHH!

[blupaddler]

John,

At what stage do you get rid of the CHROME rims?
I do really like the Lexus rims, maybe just powder coat them black. That way you'll be like a top-secret prototype or something. All blacked out and cool lookin' in that AZ sun. :p


Oh, nice pics on your website. Not to detract too far. But, your buddy Walt with the green 80...He has the 5" lift? Is that the J's or Slee combo, and is he running 33" tires still. I like the look of that with the extra clearance. :wavey:

[brittan]

Do you still have the stock springs? Let me see what I can do...
I have a set off my 97 LC if you want them. I just put on an OME medium setup. I like it and will move to the J's when it becomes mine to wheel with. I never took the LC out with the stock springs so I can't tell you how they did offroad. I can tell you the OME's are stiffer, but still flexy.

I am keeping an eye on John's build...believe me...

Are you locked John? After taking mine out sliders and lockers are next on my list. I also have a set of 35" MTR's that will show up in the garage soon off a buddy's 4Runner. Damn...I got to get Darcy anothe car.

[ShottsCruisers]

John,

At what stage do you get rid of the CHROME rims?
I do really like the Lexus rims, maybe just powder coat them black. That way you'll be like a top-secret prototype or something. All blacked out and cool lookin' in that AZ sun. :p


Oh, nice pics on your website. Not to detract too far. But, your buddy Walt with the green 80...He has the 5" lift? Is that the J's or Slee combo, and is he running 33" tires still. I like the look of that with the extra clearance. :wavey:

I'm researching rims now. I'd like alloy OEM rims though with 5-inches lift I'm concerned about safety (though possibly for nothing. I'm researching.)

Walt's 80 is SWEET. And yes, with 33's it always looks like he flexes better. We've discussed that on the trail. He recently added J's for the extra lift.

[ShottsCruisers]

I have a set off my 97 LC if you want them. I just put on an OME medium setup. I like it and will move to the J's when it becomes mine to wheel with. I never took the LC out with the stock springs so I can't tell you how they did offroad. I can tell you the OME's are stiffer, but still flexy.

I am keeping an eye on John's build...believe me...

Are you locked John? After taking mine out sliders and lockers are next on my list. I also have a set of 35" MTR's that will show up in the garage soon off a buddy's 4Runner. Damn...I got to get Darcy anothe car.

Not locked. I chose a dry climate mobile without lockers over a locked one from snow, wet, etc. I also never touched dirt. It's no biggie adding ARB's because I gotta pay to have everything ripped out to regear. So, lockers/gears are last. I stole this truck lockers or not. :D
Signed,
Got Lucky

[ShottsCruisers]

Damn...I got to get Darcy another car.

Negotiate with Darcy! :luxhello:

Set up a weekend luv affair with her at a nice resort. (Great deals this time of year)
Make :Wow1: at her all weekend. Get her a pedicure at the resort.

Then, Sunday evening tell her your desires (ANOTHER CAR SILLY :hehe: ) and ask for her partnership.

I'll bet J-springs are on order SOON! :clapsmile

[ShottsCruisers]

UPDATE: Front bumper is complete. What an improvement over my 1993 bumper. While the '93 served it's purpose really well it always looked kind of dull (??). This thing (to me) looks really sweet!

Check out the update:
http://shottscruisers.smugmug.com/Vehicle%20Specs%20and%20Modifications/125374

[Scott Brady]

Looks great John. I look forward to seeing it this weekend! :jumping:

[ShottsCruisers]

Yes sir!

Drove it with the CV front driveshaft in. 90% of the vibration is gone. Phew! The remaining should be eliminated by re-adjusting the panhards and either re-adjusting the rear uper arms and/or with a rear CV shaft. It's amazing what has to be done to add acouple extra inches. (I'll spare no expense for smoooothness. :victory: )

GOAL: Leave the 100 home :hehe:

[kevin]

Have you considered cutting and rotating the axle? This gives you stock steering geometry, and a nearly perfect driveline angle.

[blupaddler]

John, So it sounds like you had some vibration problems? Was this after the cast plates? Have you corrected it with just the front shaft? Will you have to do the panhard rods too? Thanks...I want to move up to the 4" one of these days, just trying to see what it will take. Even though you have the 5" and it is probably nowhere similar. :o


ALSO...That bumper is really nice!!! You should have your friend start selling his bumper.

Regarding the rear...I thought you cut off part of the frame on the 1993 80. Are you going with the same plan for this one or not?

Thanks again.


:sunny:

[Desertdude]

I see you are blending a few technologies in your suspension lift - in the interest in clarity- if you get 2.5 with OME 850J/863J springs - how are you getting the other 2.5" ? The trim packs + less added weight ?

[clarkrw3]

The J's give about 3.5-4 not 2.5. Actually measured at the last meet Tools R Us 's truck unloaded in the rear and my 6" loaded in the rear are the same hight. His even with spacers is lower in front.

Actually Shotts, I think the 6" spring rates are perfect. I wouldn't want to be 6" in the air and have springs as soft as the J's. My springs flex really well, I am running the med in the rear. Also the truck sits totally level without having to shim the truck back to level. Also even with slee's front arms I only have 2 deg of caster so I would think the arms would work pretty well on your setup.

great build though!!! :clapsmile

[ShottsCruisers]

The J's give about 3.5-4 not 2.5. Actually measured at the last meet Tools R Us 's truck unloaded in the rear and my 6" loaded in the rear are the same hight. His even with spacers is lower in front.

Actually Shotts, I think the 6" spring rates are perfect. I wouldn't want to be 6" in the air and have springs as soft as the J's. My springs flex really well, I am running the med in the rear. Also the truck sits totally level without having to shim the truck back to level. Also even with slee's front arms I only have 2 deg of caster so I would think the arms would work pretty well on your setup.

great build though!!! :clapsmile

So far on mine....mine will not be loaded down....the lift is 4.5" front and 4" rear with the J's. The bumpers and sliders will drop a tad. I'll then trim pack it to 5".
Adding 25% more spring rate (slee) to my unloaded truck would make it unlivable for me. That defeats the purpose of its buy. I want a truck that can run and run nicely so I leave the 100 much more. The 6" would not garage. 5" will just make it.

[Desertdude]

clarkrw3 Thanks for the real world measurements and info!


John, does your new front bumper have any bracing in the rear of the channels?

[ShottsCruisers]

clarkrw3 Thanks for the real world measurements and info!


John, does your new front bumper have any bracing in the rear of the channels?

It's C-shaped 3/8 steel. Same as the 80. Pretty much indestructable. Makes for extreme strength and is easy to build.
The 80 bumpers (same) have taken a beating. I think I've repainted them 5 or 6 times. :D

The result of this build.....the 80 and this Lexus can take lines the "normal" 80 cannot (ARB, Slee, Hanna, etc) due to lesser app and dep. You can't do this in a decked out 80. Pic:

I have the decked out 100. I want a unique and more capable rig for FUN!

[ShottsCruisers]

Another view....you'll see why a loaded 80 can't make it. They have to move way to the right. I WANNA DO THIS STUFF!

[clarkrw3]

That's understandable. Mine however, does fit in a 7' garage. I was very suprised how similar the 6' was to the J's with packers when I was parked next to tools. It's funny because Phil seems to wiggle the 80 with J's when he parks so that it is level...because the springs are soft enough that it sometimes doesn't stay level.

Are you putting a winch in that bumper or do you not need Jeep rescue equipment?

I wounder if a 4x4 labs bumper that chops the rear from would make that line doable in a "loaded" 80? I am trying to make mine very rounded and don't have the wife that is understanding enough to allow 3 cruisers. I keep lobbying for a 40/45 but so far it has fallen on deaf ears.

[ShottsCruisers]

That's understandable. Mine however, does fit in a 7' garage. I was very suprised how similar the 6' was to the J's with packers when I was parked next to tools. It's funny because Phil seems to wiggle the 80 with J's when he parks so that it is level...because the springs are soft enough that it sometimes doesn't stay level.

Are you putting a winch in that bumper or do you not need Jeep rescue equipment?

You took your roof rack off though, huh? I didn't want to do that.

LOL on the WINCH! :hehe:

[clarkrw3]

yep..got rid of the thing....http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5ce29b3127cce942887afb21b00000016108BZsmrlm4bq

[Desertdude]

Still waiting for parts, or did you weld something up? :coffee:

[ShottsCruisers]

Still waiting for parts, or did you weld something up? :coffee:

I'll wait for the upper rear cont arm adjusts. If I lengthen the lower arms rubbing will occur.

After a trail ride with Scott Brady yesterday I've also decided to NOT lift/trim the vehicle any higher than it is. Reasons:

1. GROUND CLEARANCE: The current height allows for fitting of a 35-inch tire. Since the tire size addresses the main issue of added ground clearance, adding more height without adding a larger tire doesn't accomplish that much...other than raising the level of gravity.

2. APPROACH AND DEPARTURE ANGLES/BODY GROUND CLEARANCE: IF I had aftermarket front and rear bumpers then additional lift to 5 or 6 inches would help when running difficult trails. I've addressed this issue in another way on the Lexus (and my 80) by shortening the truck (frame cutting) and adding custom bumpers. Basically, at the current 4.5" front and 4" rear, my Lexus has better app and dep angles than a 6" lifted "typical" 80-series.

3. Since #1 and #2 address the main issues on the trail....adding more height would simply make the truck more tippy. I believe Scott is right-on about this. Thanks buddy! :clapsmile

[ShottsCruisers]

yep..got rid of the thing....http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5ce29b3127cce942887afb21b00000016108BZsmrlm4bq

Hey Clarkrw3: Do you have a side/profile picture of your truck? You know, from the side while just parked?

[clarkrw3]

This is an older pic before some resent mods but you get the idea....
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5ce29b3127cce94288795b22100000016108BZsmrlm4bq
I guess I should start my own build up thread
:ylsmoke:

[erin]

:luxhello: :luxhello: Very nice rig.

[goodtimes]

2. APPROACH AND DEPARTURE ANGLES/BODY GROUND CLEARANCE: IF I had aftermarket front and rear bumpers then additional lift to 5 or 6 inches would help when running difficult trails. I've addressed this issue in another way on the Lexus (and my 80) by shortening the truck (frame cutting) and adding custom bumpers. Basically, at the current 4.5" front and 4" rear, my Lexus has better app and dep angles than a 6" lifted "typical" 80-series.

3. Since #1 and #2 address the main issues on the trail....adding more height would simply make the truck more tippy. I believe Scott is right-on about this. Thanks buddy! :clapsmile

The only thing that you are going to lose (not gain) by not lifting it more is increased break over angle. Not sure if this will be an issue or not.....depends on the trails you want to run with the lexus. I like your method of improving the approach/departure angles. Just chop off the excess....very cool. Now when do I get to see it on the trail? If you want a "real" test....we are running Hiway to Hell on Saturday....(hehehehe......just kidding.....sort of....we're running H2H, but you don't want your lexy up there)....but seriously, lets get that thing out in the dirt sometime. Martinez was alot of fun.

[The BN Guy]

I like the height! Good looking rig.

[clarkrw3]

Thanks... now that's it's been lifted for awhile I can't imagine it smaller.

[ShottsCruisers]

The only thing that you are going to lose (not gain) by not lifting it more is increased break over angle. Not sure if this will be an issue or not.....depends on the trails you want to run with the lexus. I like your method of improving the approach/departure angles. Just chop off the excess....very cool. Now when do I get to see it on the trail? If you want a "real" test....we are running Hiway to Hell on Saturday....(hehehehe......just kidding.....sort of....we're running H2H, but you don't want your lexy up there)....but seriously, lets get that thing out in the dirt sometime. Martinez was alot of fun.

Thanks for the invite Brian. H2H....naw. I couldn't embarrass your little Jeep. Just think of how everyone would be drooling over the Lexus when I pull up to the trailhead.....well, at least until we began the trail. :smilies27 :D Have fun buddy. I'm stuck in town again. :(

[ShottsCruisers]

This is an older pic before some resent mods but you get the idea....
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b5ce29b3127cce94288795b22100000016108BZsmrlm4bq
I guess I should start my own build up thread
:ylsmoke:

OK. Excellent. Thanks for posting. Do all the 6-inchers sit high like that in the front? I want to paste that pic and see how app and dep angles look though your pic looks like you were standing more to the front.

[clarkrw3]

I'll try and get a streight on today for ya.....
I don't know what your talking about the front sitting up, it's completely level :exclaim: Maybe you are just really use to the OME stinkbug look :shakin:
I will see what I can do on the pic also with the slee rear on it now.

[ShottsCruisers]

I don't know what your talking about the front sitting up, it's completely level :exclaim: Maybe you are just really use to the OME stinkbug look :shakin:


Cool.....it's the angle of the pic. For a minute, I thought it had that Chevy T-bar lift look. ;)

Here's a shot of the LX so we can compare angles

[ShottsCruisers]

Wow, these are two sweet trucks (in their own/different ways). Using the photos I measured, in a VERY NON-SCIENTIFIC WAY, the approach and departure angles. Again, the photos don't offer a whole lot of accuracy.

Clark:

F: 47d
R: 39d (not including that rear light)

John:

F: 67d
R: 45d

Breakover? Who can tell by the pics though that 6" looks sweet.

I think Scott helped me make the right decision. Most of the things out here that stop the Cruisers are the F&R bumpers hitting obstacles and stopping their progess. I rarely scrape the sliders so I'm a bit less concerned about breakover. I'll stop now at this current lift height. THANKS EXPO WEST!

[clarkrw3]

Yes...they both are very sweet.. :elkgrin: .now when are we going to get them on the trial together?? I posted better pics, I think we are much closer in the front then 20d but the rear you have me by a long shot. I didn't want to cut the frame (call me a sissy).


I thought i caught you online but now you are gone :(
I posted as attachments so that the size would be about the some as the pic you posted...I would measure the angles but I missplaced my protractor and forgot all that trig I knew at one time.

[ShottsCruisers]

here are some better pics for you.

Well, I sure like the look of that. Hmmm. Well, the good thing is I can go there if I decide to down the road. All the other needed parts will already be on.

For now, I'll stick with plan A. Other friends besides Scott told me more lift will make it tippier (especially without a wheel change or spacer) and they know I don't like tippy situations. Others might be able to handle it. Me? Probably not. :(

I can't imagine my app and dep angles with another 1.5 -inches. WOW!

[clarkrw3]

Well, I sure like the look of that. Hmmm
thanks


Other friends besides Scott told me more lift will make it tippier (especially without a wheel change or spacer) and they know I don't like tippy situations. Others might be able to handle it. Me? Probably not.

I think the slightly stiffer spring rate helps with the tippy part some and I am also running 1.25 spacers from Marlin. The main reason I put the spacers on was that it will allow me to stuff the rear wheels better (they don't hit on the inside of the wheel well.

BTW I love the look of the stubby rear bumper....we really got to get these black things out on the trail.
What did you deside on sliders? you should check out the step sliders in person!!

I think F angle is about the same, but I would give you 5d in the rear for sure maybe 10.

[BajaTaco]

... they know I don't like tippy situations. Others might be able to handle it. Me? Probably not. :(

John, I have seen you smiling on stuff that is waaay more tippy than the average guy would be comfy with. OK, well... maybe not smiling, but not crying anyway :p I agree with the logic though.

Clark - gawd that is a thing of beauty. NICE!

[ShottsCruisers]

Yes...they both are very sweet.. :elkgrin: .now when are we going to get them on the trial together?? I posted better pics, I think we are much closer in the front then 20d but the rear you have me by a long shot. I didn't want to cut the frame (call me a sissy).


I thought i caught you online but now you are gone :(
I posted as attachments so that the size would be about the some as the pic you posted...I would measure the angles but I missplaced my protractor and forgot all that trig I knew at one time.

We'll run for sure! I'd have it complete this weekend but without those upper rear arm adjusts I'm sunk. VIBRATION!

We need to bet :beer: on the ends though. I think my front has the big advantage and the rear a bit less. I also have the experience though of comparing my 1993 in person to ARB-uped 80's. Here's a shot of both the 1993 and 1997. The angle is amazing, plus we turned around the recovery loops on the LX which help even more. Gotta do that to the 1993!

[ShottsCruisers]

I have some other pics. HOW DO YOU GET THEM TO SHOW UP LIKE CLARK'S ABOVE. I have them on my site so I know I can hyperlink them. When I try though this forum just shows the red X in the upper left corner. They're just jpeg files. ???

[ShottsCruisers]

Here's side shotts showing approach angles:

http://shottscruisers.smugmug.com/photos/47547719-L.jpg

http://shottscruisers.smugmug.com/photos/47547717-M.jpg

http://shottscruisers.smugmug.com/photos/47547715-M.jpg

http://shottscruisers.smugmug.com/photos/47547721-M.jpg

[Scott Brady]

John,

Make sure to add the file extension at the end of the image link. You were missing the ".jpg" part :)

[ShottsCruisers]

John,

Make sure to add the file extension at the end of the image link. You were missing the ".jpg" part :)

I added the .jpg and nothing. I even tried adding the -L.jpg ??

[Scott Brady]

They are -M.jpg

When you upload to smugmug, find the image you want (displayed in the right pane), right mouse click and select properties. Copy the URL and past it into the forum (with the image tags)

[ShottsCruisers]

They are -M.jpg

When you upload to smugmug, find the image you want (displayed in the right pane), right mouse click and select properties. Copy the URL and past it into the forum (with the image tags)

Ahhh, I'll retry the 4th pic. J

[ShottsCruisers]

Got it Scott. Thanks!

Hey, look at that bottom pic. The illusion.....doesn't the 100 look like a shorter wheel base like a Disco compared to the 80?

[The BN Guy]

Great approach angle! Good looking rigs to boot!

[jeffryscott]

John,

have you given any consideration to the air bag with your new bumpers? I ask because I'm trying to figure out my bumper situation on my daily driver and want the protection of the airbag, but want a good bumper too ...

On the Vitara, the airbag sensor (I'm assuming that is what this is anyway) is attached to the current bumper, or what the parts people call the crush bar. Again, I'm guessing, but I would guess, because of the name, that when that metal begins to collapse, the airbag is told to deploy.

ARB makes air-bag compliant bull bars, and non air-bag models. A former highway patrolman told me the airbag will go off regrardless, but just wanted to get your thoughts ...

Thanks, Jeff

[Scott Brady]

Jeff,

While most trucks and 4wds have air bag sensors tuned for hard impact and light bumper contact, I would try to retain a crush zone before the airbags deploy. The ARB bars for airbags have an accordion style crush zone, which allows the bumper to decelerate or take a minor impact without the airbag deploying. What I do not know about your vehicle, is if the sensor on the bumper is an impact (contact) sensor, or an inertia (force) style. Most are inertia now, which provide more predictable deployment, even in an off-center impact. The inertia style make the crush zone less important.

http://www.offroadtuff.com/images/ARB/arbbullbars/ARB_bar_mount_wcp_small.jpg

[ShottsCruisers]

John,

have you given any consideration to the air bag with your new bumpers? I ask because I'm trying to figure out my bumper situation on my daily driver and want the protection of the airbag, but want a good bumper too ...

On the Vitara, the airbag sensor (I'm assuming that is what this is anyway) is attached to the current bumper, or what the parts people call the crush bar. Again, I'm guessing, but I would guess, because of the name, that when that metal begins to collapse, the airbag is told to deploy.

ARB makes air-bag compliant bull bars, and non air-bag models. A former highway patrolman told me the airbag will go off regrardless, but just wanted to get your thoughts ...

Thanks, Jeff

Hmmmmm, you know what.....this was not our focus. We copied my 1993 non-airbag rig. Yezzz, the '97 has duals. I'll need to speak to my mechanic about this. He showed me where the sensor was though I didn't ask about effectiveness.
SCOTT: Any comments here?

[kevin]

I have been wondering the same thing about my 2000 Trooper. I have been considering building a front bumper myself. I guess I will have to remove the front bumper for closer inspection.

[ShottsCruisers]

I've been busy traveling. I'll get to my mechanic soon. I've been thinking about this and am not too concerned. Like the 93 WAS, this LX will be our dedicated trail rig. The only risk is to and from the trailhead. I ran the 93 without S-bars which is more risky IMO compared to no airbag. I'll find out though. Maybe Robert addressed this and we're safe. :exclaim:

[Desertdude]

I dunno - I wouldn't mind an airbag on the trail if it was needed ;) I am famous for backing into things ( don't ride behind me :)

[goodtimes]

I am famous for backing into things ( don't ride behind me :)

I'll keep that in mind.

John, when are we getting that out into the rocks???? Martinez is calling!

[ShottsCruisers]

I'll keep that in mind.

John, when are we getting that out into the rocks???? Martinez is calling!

I took the 100 through Martinez yesterday and never even locked up.

[goodtimes]

Ok, fine. Upper Ajax is calling. And what the heck are you doing in Martinez on a Monday? Aren't you supposed to be working like normal people?

[ShottsCruisers]

Ok, fine. Upper Ajax is calling. And what the heck are you doing in Martinez on a Monday? Aren't you supposed to be working like normal people?

Right.....took the HUNDRED on Martinez when teo 80's are in the drive. :jump:

I went to Yuma and back yesterday on bizz. :xxrotflma

We want to run Saturday but we'd like to do the Battleaxe Loop if we can go. I should know tonight.

[ShottsCruisers]

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE. :luxhello:

Well, the LX is cosmetically done. The sliders are on, all cosmetic mods have been completed, alignment completed...which leaves:
1. Welding the castor plates on for reinforcement (cake)
2. Welding in the upper control arm adjust to eliminate vibration (couple hours)
3. Popping in the 4.88 gears and ARB lockers (2 days at 4Wheeler Parts and Supply)

We're stopping at 4" rear lift and 4.5" front lift. Adding more height will accomplish one thing...tippiness. :mad: Considering my app and dep angles easily better a 6" lifted 80...I'm done!

Then, it's ready to rock. Like my '93, this thing will climb and descend obstacles the typical 80 will get hung up on on not be able to do. I can't wait to wheel this sucker! :xxrotflma

http://shottscruisers.smugmug.com/photos/49342510-M.jpg
http://shottscruisers.smugmug.com/photos/49342520-M.jpg
http://shottscruisers.smugmug.com/photos/49342522-M.jpg
http://shottscruisers.smugmug.com/photos/49342528-M.jpg

[Scott Brady]

John,

That looks absolutely awesome! I would really like to go on a rida-a-long with you in it.

[ShottsCruisers]

John,

That looks absolutely awesome! I would really like to go on a rida-a-long with you in it.

Thanks sir. We'll do it I'm sure! MERRY CHRISTMAS!

[goodtimes]

When and where? I think it should be a good one.....skip the "easy" trails like Chiva, C.Gap, Sibly Mansion, etc. Lets go hit Upper Ajax or the such, and see how well it crawls. I have heard the 2nd obstacle on UA is very different than last year, leaving only one obstacle that will present a big challenge to your lexy...oh, and one obstacle that will present a challenge to the drivers ability to hang onto the seat with his butt......

[ShottsCruisers]

When and where? I think it should be a good one.....skip the "easy" trails like Chiva, C.Gap, Sibly Mansion, etc. Lets go hit Upper Ajax or the such, and see how well it crawls. I have heard the 2nd obstacle on UA is very different than last year, leaving only one obstacle that will present a big challenge to your lexy...oh, and one obstacle that will present a challenge to the drivers ability to hang onto the seat with his butt......

Hey Brian. Hope all is well! I don't know if a trail like Ajax will ever be my style. Too slow, too rocky, too much room for damage for a big vehicle. (Though I know others who go)

The LX will replace the '93. I'd guess something like a Woodpecker might be my tops. I'll have to see when it's ready to rock. It'll take one trip to pinstripe it then who knows for there. :hehe:

[goodtimes]

I thought you were building a "rock crawler" :P

Upper Ajax really isn't all that difficult of a trail, although it certainly isn't that scenic. The first time I went through there (jeep was still stock), it took us about 1 1/2 hours. It wasn't nearly as rocky as Axle Alley or Hiway to Hell.

Lower Woodpecker would be fun with a rig that wide (I'm too narrow to play on some of the stuff). Upper Woodpecker is just a bumpy dirt road if you bypass Firehole. Really no more difficult than something like FR4405 (Tanque Verde Loop out by Chiva).

[Desertdude]

Hey John looking great!

I would like to hook up with you at some point and check out the ride, before I get into lifting mine...

Gas/food on me :ylsmoke: Maybe in Feb :beer:

[blupaddler]

John,
VERY NICE!!!:bowdown:

However, there is one problem...It is too shiny and clean. You have two options 1. Come over and clean mine OR 2. Go out and get some of that famous AZ pinstriping.


Kidding aside. Very nice. Very simple. VERY functional.

[ShottsCruisers]

I thought you were building a "rock crawler" :P

***Please let me clarify....a "Land Cruiser--Rock Crawler Edition". :D This thing ain't no, and never will be a Jeep. TOO LONG, TOO BIG!***

Upper Ajax really isn't all that difficult of a trail, although it certainly isn't that scenic. The first time I went through there (jeep was still stock), it took us about 1 1/2 hours. It wasn't nearly as rocky as Axle Alley or Hiway to Hell.

***I've just heard that people are on Ajax for HOURS. Not my style though I'm open to experimentation. I can always turn around if I don't like things.***

Lower Woodpecker would be fun with a rig that wide (I'm too narrow to play on some of the stuff). Upper Woodpecker is just a bumpy dirt road if you bypass Firehole. Really no more difficult than something like FR4405 (Tanque Verde Loop out by Chiva).

***Me like smooth dirt roads. Me like Cruisers.***
:D

[ShottsCruisers]

Hey John looking great!

I would like to hook up with you at some point and check out the ride, before I get into lifting mine...

Gas/food on me :ylsmoke: Maybe in Feb :beer:

Let's do it. I forgot where you live? Northern AZ?

[Desertdude]

Let's do it. I forgot where you live? Northern AZ?

Sedona -

I am planning on being down in the Tucson area end of Jan I'ill send you a message when we get closer see if it jives

Thanks John!
:beer:

[ShottsCruisers]

Sedona -

I am planning on being down in the Tucson area end of Jan I'ill send you a message when we get closer see if it jives

Thanks John!
:beer:

Yes Sedona. Gotcha on Tucson. See ya!

[ShottsCruisers]

OK...it's ALMOST DUNNNNN! Here's the latest:

ARB Lockers installed
4.88 gears installed (I'M GLAD I DID THIS!)
1-inch added front lift to correct the front pinion angle for the D/C driveshaft.
(5+ inches front/4.5 inches rear)

We're still chasing vibration. Experts think it might be rear pinion angles or worn rear U-joints. I've got a lot of great ideas on MUD and am checking them out.

Here's the latest info. Click this link then NEXT to cycle through the 6 or so new pics. http://shottscruisers.smugmug.com/gallery/916576/3/54505973

[upcruiser]

That thing is coming along nicely! What are your plans for it? I mean, what are you planning to use it for? Are you doing the installs yourself?

Man, I want to do an ARB locker install so bad. If I had the money I'd order me a set asap. I've got my front axle apart right now, wish I could just drop the setup in front and rear while the truck is out of commision.

[ShottsCruisers]

That thing is coming along nicely! What are your plans for it? I mean, what are you planning to use it for? Are you doing the installs yourself?

Man, I want to do an ARB locker install so bad. If I had the money I'd order me a set asap. I've got my front axle apart right now, wish I could just drop the setup in front and rear while the truck is out of commision.

It'll be our dedicated trail vehicle. The 100 will be used for trips and moderate 4-wheeling. This Lexus will sit until trail time. :ylsmoke:

In tracking down vibration I discovered the truck is leaning F&R by 1/2 inch. The driver's side lift is less. Time to trim pack again. :mad:

[goodtimes]

John, if you suspect it is rear u-joints, or inappropriate u-joint angles, just remove the rear driveshaft, and take it for a spin in front wheel drive. You can do that it a 'cruiser, right? (I don't remember if they put a real transfer case in those things or not).

When you get it ready for the trail, let me know. My boss owes me a weekend off, so if you give me a weeks notice, I can get the time off to come see you wet your pants when we point that thing towards the sky a time or two. hehehe....

OH, to the "hours on upper ajax" comment from a month or two ago (few posts up in this thread), I have been through there with 4 vehicles (including my stock rubicon), in less than 1.5 hours. It's all in knowing where to put the tires, then putting them there.

[BMAN]

Hey what's the story on this pig? When are we gonna make that Woodpecker trip?

[ShottsCruisers]

John, if you suspect it is rear u-joints, or inappropriate u-joint angles, just remove the rear driveshaft, and take it for a spin in front wheel drive. You can do that it a 'cruiser, right? (I don't remember if they put a real transfer case in those things or not).

When you get it ready for the trail, let me know. My boss owes me a weekend off, so if you give me a weeks notice, I can get the time off to come see you wet your pants when we point that thing towards the sky a time or two. hehehe....

OH, to the "hours on upper ajax" comment from a month or two ago (few posts up in this thread), I have been through there with 4 vehicles (including my stock rubicon), in less than 1.5 hours. It's all in knowing where to put the tires, then putting them there.

Rear shaft is out and vibration is better. One of the U-joints is worn badly. I'll replace them and re-try....BUT.....with only the front shaft in (pretty good pinion angle and a D/C shaft) it still vibrates when on the gas, more the faster you go, and it has a rough spot from 35-45MPH. ?????

[Scott Brady]

could be influenced by worn motor/gearbox mounts too.

That truck is pretty tall. It will be a challenge to rid of all vibration IMO without significant expense.

[ShottsCruisers]

could be influenced by worn motor/gearbox mounts too.

That truck is pretty tall. It will be a challenge to rid of all vibration IMO without significant expense.

Well, I am growing weary. I thought those rear arm adjusts to correct the pinion angle would do. Not so far. We're pretty close to being identical in angle. We'll square it up with the shaft out. It is possible we got a bad DC front shaft. 4 Wheel Supply commented about that though I don't know if they were guessing or not.

[goodtimes]

How bad is the "rough spot"? Is it repeatable? Under what conditions? (speed, load on the engine, road conditions, etc).

There is a possibility that you are running into a harmonics issue. Every mechanical component gives off a certainn amount of energy as vibration. Generally, there are so many different components giving off so many different vibrations at so many different frequencies and so many different intensities and phaze angles, that a standing wave will not form because they are on different phazes. Basically they cancel each other out. You have changed some of those frequencies, intensities and phaze "angles", so they may be getting close to forming a standing wave at a certain point your "rough spot". (A classic example of this is "death wobble" common on short wheelbase jeeps). As Scott mentioned, this can be a major pain to solve, and often times comes down to a crap shoot. You just start changing parts until the problem goes away since there is no realistic way to test the components to a level of 95% confidence without "considerable expense" as Scott puts it.

A second comment is that you *are* building what you call a dedicated trail rig. One of the major advantages of having a dedicated trail rig is the fact that minor clunks, rattles, vibrations etc., which would be annoying on a daily driver, can be lived with. You should go for a ride in my jeep sometime. After that, you probably won't even feel the little "rough spot" in the lexy. hahaha

[ShottsCruisers]

How bad is the "rough spot"? Is it repeatable? Under what conditions? (speed, load on the engine, road conditions, etc).

There is a possibility that you are running into a harmonics issue. Every mechanical component gives off a certainn amount of energy as vibration. Generally, there are so many different components giving off so many different vibrations at so many different frequencies and so many different intensities and phaze angles, that a standing wave will not form because they are on different phazes. Basically they cancel each other out. You have changed some of those frequencies, intensities and phaze "angles", so they may be getting close to forming a standing wave at a certain point your "rough spot". (A classic example of this is "death wobble" common on short wheelbase jeeps). As Scott mentioned, this can be a major pain to solve, and often times comes down to a crap shoot. You just start changing parts until the problem goes away since there is no realistic way to test the components to a level of 95% confidence without "considerable expense" as Scott puts it.

A second comment is that you *are* building what you call a dedicated trail rig. One of the major advantages of having a dedicated trail rig is the fact that minor clunks, rattles, vibrations etc., which would be annoying on a daily driver, can be lived with. You should go for a ride in my jeep sometime. After that, you probably won't even feel the little "rough spot" in the lexy. hahaha

Answers:

Par 1: Every time you're at 35-50 or so the vibration is more like a low-pitched shudder. It's irritating. Gotta get rid of it. It's not there with the front shaft out and the rear in.

Par 2: Can't live with it for 2 reasons....1. If the thing doesn't drive like a Lexus it'll defeat the purpose for which I bought it...to leave the 100 home. 2. Because vibration wears other parts out. I don't want an unreliable Cruiser.

[Scott Brady]

John,

It can most definitaly be fixed. Just realize that it might cost you some $$$ before it is all over with .

[ShottsCruisers]

Spoke to Slee just now. He told be to take a DEEP BREATH (by having a beer....didn't do it) and relax. There more things that need to be checked to troubleshoot this. I'm sending him my DC front shaft to have checked. I am replacing my U-joints and will get the rear shaft balanced.

ANYBODY KNOW WHERE IN TUCSON?

Then wait to hear back from Slee about my front shaft. Meanwhile the stock front is going back in. I'm worn out. :ar15:

[Scott Brady]

John,

You are building a vehicle at the extreme end of its operating tolerances. Large tires, huge lift, etc.

These custom project ALWAYS have challenges. You should not expect it to be easy or cheap.

It is just the nature of the beast amigo, so dont get frustrated. Christo is as good as they come, he will help you solve the problem.

[ShottsCruisers]

You should not expect it to be easy or cheap.

Ya....except that they sell the stuff as a "bolt-in" kit. :smilies27

I do understand though how defferent aged vehicles can have differently worn parts and therefore this happens when you're at these angles. If I could do it again I'd a stuck at the go-anwhere on earth 3.5 or so inches like my '93. :campfire:

[Scott Brady]

If I could do it again I'd a stuck at the go-anwhere on earth 3.5 or so inches like my '93. :campfire:

That sounds like an echo ;)

[ShottsCruisers]

That sounds like an echo ;)

:ar15: Scott

:D

[goodtimes]

John, there are a couple places in Tucon to get your driveshaft balanced. Simmons 4x4, and one other place, I can't recall the name right now. This second place is where Kyle ("rockcrawler" over at Jacks site.....guy with the scrambler...I think you have met him....maybe not) had his driveshaft re-tubed on a saturday morning with no notice. Great service on the shops part. Heck, the guy wasn't even open that day. Kyle happened to call while he was there cleaning up...he did the job anyway. I'll get the info from Kyle later tonight when we do happy hour.

Is the vibration/shudder coming up through the steering column, or somewhere else?

Cristo is right, you should have a beer. These things CAN be fixed, but it can be like trying to find a needle in a haystack, particularly if it is a harmonics issue. Diagnosis is the hardest part. Once you know what the problem is, things are easy.

If you are really at the end of your rope, feel free to join us for happy hour at 6:30 @ chili's on broadway east of Swan. Happy hour always helps.

[ShottsCruisers]

John, there are a couple places in Tucon to get your driveshaft balanced. Simmons 4x4, and one other place, I can't recall the name right now. This second place is where Kyle ("rockcrawler" over at Jacks site.....guy with the scrambler...I think you have met him....maybe not) had his driveshaft re-tubed on a saturday morning with no notice. Great service on the shops part. Heck, the guy wasn't even open that day. Kyle happened to call while he was there cleaning up...he did the job anyway. I'll get the info from Kyle later tonight when we do happy hour.

Is the vibration/shudder coming up through the steering column, or somewhere else?

Cristo is right, you should have a beer. These things CAN be fixed, but it can be like trying to find a needle in a haystack, particularly if it is a harmonics issue. Diagnosis is the hardest part. Once you know what the problem is, things are easy.

If you are really at the end of your rope, feel free to join us for happy hour at 6:30 @ chili's on broadway east of Swan. Happy hour always helps.

I pick up my U-joints tomorrow and was going to have my mechanic put them in. Do I REALLY have to spend the dough to get it balanced? I was told they are usually fine unless somebody messes things up when swapping them.

The vibration is seen in the side-view mirror (blur) and felt some in the steering wheel andmore in the floor, the dash, the console, etc. That 35-50 BAD spot...the shudder is felt the same too and stronger in the steering wheel.

When I bought this thing it was smooooooooooth.

Enjoy your beer. And thanks. It's Becky's B-day. She's going out.

[GeoRoss]

The vibration is seen in the side-view mirror (blur) and felt some in the steering wheel andmore in the floor, the dash, the console, etc.

Are you sure the mirror isn't loose? Pretty common on the 80 series after awhile.

Ross

[BMAN]

Just drive 60 and fuggedaboudit!

[goodtimes]

John, you don't need to re-balance the driveshaft just because you change u-joints....if the shaft was balanced beforehand, it will still be balanced afterwards. But on the other side of the coin, if it wasn't in balance before, it still won't be. So, if you are sure that it is balanced (no weights have been knocked off, it hasn't been rubbed on rocks, etc), I wouldn't re-balance it....

BTW, I believe it was Tucson Driveline that did the work for Kyle. Sorry, no contact info, but they are in the yellow pages.

Your description is typical of a driveline problem. If it was a steering component/alignment, it would be more pronounced in the steering wheel than in the rest of the vehicle. Front driveline vibrations will be more pronounced in the steering than rear driveline problems....something easy and free to check is to rotate your tires, and see if ANYTHING changes (where the vibration is felt, the intensity, when it starts/stops, etc).

It is a good idea to WRITE DOWN all the symptoms, and the conditions under which they happen. 2 or 3 weeks into troubleshooting it is easy to forget if vibration started at 35mph or 40 mph. Having a solid reference point helps. You may change one thing (suspension component, steering component, etc) which has a small effect on the vibration...but if you are not 100% sure of the original condition, you won't be 100% sure if the change is real, or if you just imagined it. This will help you alot as you chase down the problem. Of course you also want to write down what changes are made, and what effects they have had. Don't simply say "nothing changed", take a new piece of paper, drive the lexy, and write down all the symptoms. Then go compare it with the original. Otherwise it is easy for your mind to tell you nothing changed just because the conditions are similar. Even little changes help point you to the problem.....and more information is better.

[erin]

:D
Not to bad mouth any shop, but I recently had some problems with Tucson Driveline. I had my front and rear shafts balanced by them to no affect, and they both swore up and down that they could feel no vibrations, but the condition was no better than it was when I went there first. I then tried Fleet Pride as recommended by Tucson Differential, and they did help the vibration by about 80%. So I know where your coming from, don't get discouraged. The diff shop has never seen a truck that they couldn't get vibes out of, that is until they met my truck. I believe that most of my problems are from the front shaft, so I may just convert to manual hubs and be done with it.

Good luck!

[ShottsCruisers]

Are you sure the mirror isn't loose? Pretty common on the 80 series after awhile.

Ross

Yep. I need to remove it and add some glue.

[ShottsCruisers]

Good advice Kevin and Erin. I've been documenting changes over in MUD.

[ShottsCruisers]

UPDATE:

I took the D/C front shaft out of the LX. I'll send that to Slee for inspection.

Meanwhile, we slapped the front stock shaft from our '93 into the LX. The U-joints felt good and consistent though the '93 has 165K on it so some wear to those U-joints must exist. When we drive the '93 every now and then we get some slack.

The test drive of the LX? 95% of the vibration is GONE with the '93 stock shaft in the LX! What's left though is a quick GRRR sound every time you go on and off the gas. Plus, some vibration does exist upon deceleration though it's slight. Also at a few speeds on decel there is some slight GRRR sound.

PLEASE KEEP IN MIND we still have the rear shaft out. It's awaiting another u-joint. Having it in might effect or reduce the current sounds.

MY QUESTION: So how do we end this? My gut? We never needed a D/C front shaft. We lifted the LX and vibration hit. The rear shaft had a bad U-joint. Maybe the front did too though we pitched it becuase we were told we'd need the D/C shaft. Keep in mind we added another 20mm lift to help out the D/C shaft which didn't work.

My guess: Remove that added 20mm lift that didn't help anyhow. This should improve the operation of a stock shaft even more. Throw in the rear shaft and balance via upper rear control adjusts. If all works I'll buy a used shaft to throw back in my '93 for the one I robbed.

WHAT AM I MISSING? Probably plenty?

[Desertdude]

WHAT AM I MISSING? Probably plenty?


I dunno - I am no expert - but I have been under my 80 all week - removing the diffs for regearing and ARB's install - and all the cosmetic parts I don't need- which makes talking about it somewhat easier as I can see all the parts and pieces and what they do and how it all works. When you take apart the front axles -there's a whole lot going on... :ylsmoke:

After reading and re reading many posts on all the issues and successes - it appears to be all about the angles ( diff/transfer) - castor correction needs and which driveshaft works best. OEM or DC shaft - and having all the parts up to snuff.

If you know what the angles are ( as precise as you can) this is the big indicator as to what to do next - without this it is all guess work and parts R&R - not a bad way but not to scientific.

This driveline link (http://home.att.net/%7Ebenmlee/driveline/U-JOINT.htm) has some good info to shed light on part of the equation.

I think you are getting closer to your happy spot with your mods :jumping:

[kevin]

I agree, pinion angle is the key here, not the drive shaft. Changing to a double cardian shaft is going to allow for more smoother operation at greater angles, but this might be only a band aid fix. If you are getting bad vibrations on the road, I forsee potential problems on the trail. With full suspension droop, wich is probly alot with your suspension and increased tire weight, your pinion angle will even worsen. Add lockers, large tires, good surface traction and the weight of the LX, the u-joints could become prone to failure. Degree shimms will only help to the degree that the camber and caster can be adjusted, (returned to original.) I am assuming that has a high pinon third member? If not that would be the best solution. A permanent fix is to cut and rotate the third member. This points the pinion shaft directly at the transfer output, yeilding a perfect drive line angle. That way when the suspension is at a static height the shaft is perfectly straight and only angled mildly during suspension travel. This is a very common solution on fj40s due to their short wheelbase. Short wheelbase = steeper pinion angles. There is a good article with pictures here. although this is for a leaf spring truck, the basic procedure is the same for the LX.

www.4x4wire.com/toyota/tech/rotated_housing/

[ShottsCruisers]

OK, STOCK d-shaft demands:

In the rear...the T-case and rear pumpkin flanges should be parallel? Yes?

In the front...the Tcase and front pumpkin flanges should not be parallel? The front pnion should point to the T-case flange? (I thought this was a D/C front D-shaft demand?)

[Desertdude]

I have seen your photos of the diff angle - without being there and without using a tool to measure the angle - The diff appears to be not quite pointing to the transfer case - which IMHO and a wild guess would mean you are in-between the OEM and DC shaft - you would need to correct the diff angle slightly - more or less - either way - to meet the needs of either DS -

The OEM shaft might be better cause it is closer to pointing to the Transfer case than being parallel - not by much though ;)

You is stuck in middle earth with no DS to match :ylsmoke:

The true test will be both DS on with new U-joints - properly phased and balanced for a real test - ( after when all is better - I would also make sure those tires/wheels are dead on)

I am about three weeks behind your lift install - it will be interesting to see how Slee's 4" kit works out for me.

[ShottsCruisers]

I have seen your photos of the diff angle - without being there and without using a tool to measure the angle - The diff appears to be not quite pointing to the transfer case - which IMHO and a wild guess would mean you are in-between the OEM and DC shaft - you would need to correct the diff angle slightly - more or less - either way - to meet the needs of either DS -

The OEM shaft might be better cause it is closer to pointing to the Transfer case than being parallel - not by much though ;)

You is stuck in middle earth with no DS to match :ylsmoke:

The true test will be both DS on with new U-joints - properly phased and balanced for a real test - ( after when all is better - I would also make sure those tires/wheels are dead on)

I am about three weeks behind your lift install - it will be interesting to see how Slee's 4" kit works out for me.

Well...that's why I was up past midnight and couldn't sleep. This Lexus! If I could I'd rip it out, drop it to 3.5" and go anywhere. I can't. I have the caster plates welded on, adjusters welded into arms and pans....I'm comitted. So, I'm unloaded and can't use Slee-brand springs. Do I just thow in some 1.5" spacers F&R (5-6" lift) and be done? This will take the front pinion angle up into the Slee Lift Zone. :ylsmoke: Right?

[Desertdude]

I see where you are now as far as the welding of the plates... and making finer adjustment

I read on Mud after a lengthy search - Rick (Land-tank) has been developing adjustable or user drilled castor plates...

[ShottsCruisers]

I see where you are now as far as the welding of the plates... and making finer adjustment

I read on Mud after a lengthy search - Rick (Land-tank) has been developing adjustable or user drilled castor plates...

Ya, I read some of that stuff. I think Slee's focus is right for his bizz. He has 4" plates, 4-inch lifts, and the parts to make it work.

To try and simplify my solution, I've asked for lift specs on a Slee 4" lift from center of the wheel/hub up to the wheel well. I'll compare my no's to Slee's. If I can get to that spot (sure I can) in the front all should work. Then, I have the rear adjusters for the rear as well as all the other Slee 4" parts already on. The only thing different are my springs. That's my thought....plan....of course I'll await results on that CV shaft. Bad? Not bad? We'll see.

Sound resonable?

[Desertdude]

Sound resonable?

yup -


I would still question the fact that the diff pinion angle appears to be in the middle of where it should be -

I think I would try an acurately measure both the diff anf transfer case angle this way you will have concrete data for extended help :coffee:

[ShottsCruisers]

yup -


I would still question the fact that the diff pinion angle appears to be in the middle of where it should be -

Probably right. IF however, I have Slee 4" cater plates, the same slee 4" lift amount and his matching CV shaft then things should line up and work.....or his kit wouldn't work either?

I think I would try an acurately measure both the diff anf transfer case angle this way you will have concrete data for extended help :coffee:

I looked for an inclinometer but have been to busy and sick.

[goodtimes]

John, for proper driveline operation, you need to first establish ride height (you should be done with this by now), zero out the pinion angle and transfer case output shaft angles (they should be parallel to each other), then you need to calculate length (u-joint axis to u-joint axis), then calculate the angle that each u-joint will be operating at. If the u-joint operating angle is above 7 degrees, you want to go with a double cardon shaft. This will require a pinion angle change (from stock). So, now adjust your pinion angles. For a linked (coil springs) axle, set your pinion angle about 1 degree below driveshaft angle. For leaf springs, start at 2.5 degrees. Once the pinion angle is set, then recalculate driveshaft length. Correct for castor only after the pinion angles are set. You will be limited on the pinion angle adjustments once you correct for castor.

Since you already corrected for castor, you are in kind of a bind. If you set your front axle up for a DC driveshaft (pinion rotated up, pointing towards the transfer case), you will either need to stick with a DC shaft, or cut your castor correction plates off, and start over. There is nothing wrong with running a DC driveshaft in place of a traditional shaft (assuming you set u-joint angles properly). The only downside is a small increase in rotational mass of the drivetrain, increased cost and increased maintenance (more things to grease).

[goodtimes]

Oh, I have a inclinometer (magnetic protractor) here if you want to borrow it (it is stuck to the side of my tool box, about 12" above your CD with the Chiva pics).

[ShottsCruisers]

I think I had a good plan of attack on this build. I just got caught up in either:

1. All the trucks vary a bit so things can change.
2. I got a bad CV front Dshaft

I decided on a 4" lift using J-springs. And to keep the excellent ride I figured I'd correct caster. My friend Frank just did the same thing on his LX and no vibrations existed and he used his stock front shaft.

Didn't work for me (possibly because of bad stock U-joints we didn't know about)...so the crap began. I bought each additional item from Slee as he thought I might need. Nothing worked.

1. Slee said CV shaft?
2. Lift the front 20mm more to improve pinion angle
3. Slee said rear control arm adjusts to fix rear angle and dial in
4. Check D-shafts for bad u-joints
5. Replace bad rear U-joints
6. Send CV shaft for testing.

I understand your note and the adjustment process. I do wish there were as many options available for the 80 as there are for your Jeep. For me I had two caster selections...2.5" and 4". I went 4". So, I'm stuck correcting pinion angles using other methods. Bassackwards of your, the standard method.

I'd luv to come by Saturday or whenever to snag that inclinometer and swap CD's. When ya free? I can bring the Lexus so you can eyeball the thing. It is a sight of beauty...too bad it's not usable. :mad:

[goodtimes]

I'm here all day today (friday), I'll be home after ~7:30pm tomorrow, and I don't know about Sunday...I work 7 - 7, but will probably get together with some people from school to work on a engineering project for a few hours (meaning I'll get home around midnight).

I realize you had very limited options with regards to your castor....my post was more for someone down the road who is researching lifts and comes across your thread.


:wavey:

[ShottsCruisers]

OK EXPERTS....I HAVE ANGLE MEASUREMENTS!

Goodtimes really stepped up and checked out my Lexus. With his knowledge and tools I learned a lot. Whiteboard drawings sure helped too. Brian, you rock! Thanks!

Here's what we found out. Now, what do I do next? THANKS!

T/Case front flange is UP 3.5* and T/Case rear flange is DOWN 3.5*
(Is this normal? I'd think they'd be level? His garage was.)

FRONT MEASUREMENT:

T/Case 3.5* UP
Front Pinion 6.5* UP
Slope 9*
So the difference angle is 2.5* which should be just in the working range of the D/C front shaft. (??) He said there's no way a stock shaft would work...we removed it.

He inspected the new DC shaft and believes it is bad. He showed how it is rough in places and that it makes some noise when turning by hand. We did not re-lube it because it's new and it came with problems (noise/vibration) out of the box. I sent it back to Slee today. If it is bad a new one will be sent back.

REAR MEASUREMENT:

T/Case 3.5* DOWN
Rear pinion was 2* UP...we adjusted to 3.5* UP and are driving this way now. It rides smoothly with the rear shaft in only.

So, what should I do next?

A. Put in D/C shaft when a good one returns and see how it goes?
B. Not wait for that. Get working on another solution now because of front geometry (though it might not need more work/lift/whatever)?
C. ?
D. ?

[Desertdude]

One thought - if you want to make it perfect and your like you lift hieght - unweld the castor plates and get Rick (landtank) to make you a new set based on your angle needs for the DC shaft ( since you no longer have the OEM shaft)

at least now you know what is going on :)

damn your posting in 4 places :Wow1:

[ShottsCruisers]

One thought - if you want to make it perfect and your like you lift hieght - unweld the castor plates and get Rick (landtank) to make you a new set based on your angle needs for the DC shaft ( since you no longer have the OEM shaft)

at least now you know what is going on :)

damn your posting in 4 places :Wow1:

Posting is down to two now. :Wow1:

And yes....Rick was a thought. I'll see how he responds. J

[goodtimes]

John, I think you should get the driveshaft taken care of first. If you start changing things before you are sure that is or is not the problem, you can create a new problem and you won't be sure what is happening.....take one step at a time. I do like dude's idea about having new castor plates made. If I were in your shoes, I would talk to the guy about having some made, but not actually have it done until you get the driveshaft back and verify that it does or does not work. Plan for the next step, but don't take that step until you finish the first one.

Keep in mind, as you continue to increase the pinion angle, you are also increasing the castor angle....this will eventually start affecting your handling. At what point it becomes unacceptable for you, I have no idea. But as you rotate the axle forward, you will see the steering become sluggish and will require more effort to steer at speed , and it can induce some torque steer (although I would be surprized if you ever noticed....this is more of a problem with FWD cars with high horsepower engines).

As we discussed yesterday, as you move to extremes, these symptoms will become worse and worse. At what point they become unacceptable, is up to you. Just be aware that very rarely will you be able to change one thing to gain an improvement without having a negative effect somewhere else. (for example, rotating your pinion angle up with new castor plates will help u-joint angles but will hurt steering performance). This is why I think you should do the driveshaft first...this keeps things farther from that extreme.

[ShottsCruisers]

Yepper. I'm doing nothing until we get the D/C shaft back. Meanwhile...I have a question:

They say when you accellerate/cruise the pinion angles changes (rotates) by 1-2*. The front goes down and the rear goes up they say. What does this mean?

When you hit the gas what happens to the ANGLE OF THE PUMPKIN/FLANGE?

The rear angles UP compared to parked?
The front angles DOWN compared to parked?

I ask because I need to still tune my rear shaft before the DC front comes. It's pretty smooth on gas and when Cruising. Off the gas though it makes some grrr noise at faster speeds. We set the flanges parallel in the rear though that was parked position rather than cruising. I'm trying to figure which way we need to angle the 1-2*. Gracias!

[goodtimes]

On standard rotation pinions (like yours), the rear pinion angle will increase under load, and decrease under coast conditions. That is to say, the pumpkin will rotate up (the "companion flange" that the driveshaft bolts to....the part we measured to obtain the pinion angle, moves up). If you are getting noise under coast conditions, you need to move the pinion angle up when parked. Don't go too far (small increments), or you can start seeing problems under load....there is a happy middle ground there somewhere.....just gotta find it.

[ShottsCruisers]

On standard rotation pinions (like yours), the rear pinion angle will increase under load, and decrease under coast conditions. That is to say, the pumpkin will rotate up (the "companion flange" that the driveshaft bolts to....the part we measured to obtain the pinion angle, moves up). If you are getting noise under coast conditions, you need to move the pinion angle up when parked. Don't go too far (small increments), or you can start seeing problems under load....there is a happy middle ground there somewhere.....just gotta find it.

Gracias. I'm going to buy a huge wrench like you used and try it myself.

[ShottsCruisers]

OK. It's official. My D/C shaft was BAD! A new one is on the way to me. I think Slee sent me the bad one on purpose because I didn't buy the whole mess all at once like he told me to. :D

MEANWHILE...the rear shaft has new U-joints in it. Some vibes exist though today we determined which way we need to adjust...UP PINION. We slapped 200 lbs on the very rear and re-tested. Vibes down by 75%. So, we'll lengthen those upper rear arms 2 rotations at a time until it's smoooooth. We'll finalize this Friday and await the new D/C front on Monday.

I AM PRAYING FOR TUESDAY TO COME! :D

[goodtimes]

Glad to hear you are making progress John.

JeffreyScott and myself are still heading out to play tomorrow....feel free to join us (in the 100, since the lexus isn't running yet).

[ShottsCruisers]

Glad to hear you are making progress John.

JeffreyScott and myself are still heading out to play tomorrow....feel free to join us (in the 100, since the lexus isn't running yet).

Thanks for the invite Brian. Gotta work some (especially AM) so wheeling's out. I'll have afternoon time to finish the rear shaft.

[ShottsCruisers]

IT'S DONE! Vibration is gone. At 5-inches lift it needed the upper rear control arm adjusts and a front D/C (CV) drive shaft for sure. In fact, the rear arms had to be shortened over a half an inch in order for things to line up. Once complete....we trimmed the rear mud flaps so they don't get hung up in reverse and rip off a flair. New plate installed too. ROCK LX Let's go wheeling! And man....am I glad I re-geared this thing!

http://shottscruisers.smugmug.com/photos/57561890-L.jpg

http://shottscruisers.smugmug.com/photos/54505996-M.jpg

[ShottsCruisers]

OK...I lied. Eventually I will get different wheels. :beer:

[goodtimes]

Sorry, I just used my only day off this year to go run c-gap. It is getting easier on the front side, but the back end is starting to deteriorate, slowly restoring it to the "pre-blade" condition. The step was exceptionally easy today....barely slipped a tire on it (and I wasn't even aired down to my normal 9 psi). I *might* have the friday before AZ rocks off....not sure yet.

[ShottsCruisers]

Did the higway test last night. NO GOOD! The ride's not tolerable. Back to the drawing board on Monday.
I'm thinking I should rip the cater plates off, snag the Slee front arms and swap for his 6" springs. Everything lines up this way.

[goodtimes]

What is not tolerable about the ride?

[ShottsCruisers]

What is not tolerable about the ride?

1. You can tell the vibration is bad for the truck.
2. Above 60MPH the sound inside the truck sounds like an earthquake.
3. You feel the vibes

Yesterday we lifted and drooped the front end while comparing the front pinion angle. We were looking for the spot where the flange and the D/C shaft were at 90*. We need more lift for sure.

I picked up my 1.25" front aluminum spacers this morning. They're going in tomorrow and we're re-ride. I'm guessing the problem will be gone or at least much reduced. I'll report.

If it's gone I'll add an 20mm to the rear, realign rear and be done.

[Scott Brady]

Now that you have gone through this process, would you just recommend that someone go with the full Slee 4" kit right off the bat?

[ShottsCruisers]

Now that you have gone through this process, would you just recommend that someone go with the full Slee 4" kit right off the bat?

For 95% of the 80-series trail population? Nope. I'd highly suggest to stick with the standard OME lift and possibly a spacer or two depending on accessories. My 3-3.5" lifted 80 goes everywhere and handily. It's smooth. It cost nothing to lift. It retains all OEM parts. There's no D/C shafts to lube every 3K miles or they fail. And a low breakover angle is almost never an issue on the trail at this lift with 35's. Looking back I should have stuck to this in the LX. Now, with all the parts bought I'm focusing on keeping it higher and HOPE I don't regret it.

If somebody had a need where more lift than 3-3.5" is essential, then yes, I'd buy a "kit" that's tested and start that way. Though even Slee says sometimes one needs a D/C rear shaft with his 4 or 6" lifts. (Mainly the 6")

The puzzling factor to me is that I have the "Slee 4" Kit" though different springs. I've had the truck at the same height with the same caster correction and it's a no go. Is it a second bad front D/C shaft? Who knows? My spacer test today though will tell us for sure. I will be at the 5.5" lift mark. This should be close enough when it comes to driveline angles. We'll see.

[ShottsCruisers]

Took the LX out on it's first off-road test today. Some pics below.

Observations:

1. The 4.88 gear change is wonderful. I mean wonderful! Worth every penny! How did I survive in my '93 without 4.88s? :victory:

2. 5.5" lift is well controlled and doesn't feel tippy whatsoever. My fear of this possible negative is pretty-much over, though I didn't run a fun run with a lot of off-camber so we'll keep watch. The breakover angle is greatly improved over my '93. And adding in the front and rear frame cutting and special bumpers the thing can't be stopped. I'm SO GLAD I didn't bling it out with the ARB and Slee bumpers (thanks Slee for waking my up!) because I couldnt have done the below obstacle. (Well....to each their own....I'm not trying to say a decked out 80 sucks. It depends on your off-roading focus and how you want the truck to look. I want this to be an aggressive trail beast first, and a looker second. A winch isn't a priority to me, though I can take a strap if needed. After all, my 100 is decked out. Why would I want another decker. :D )

3. The Lexus is improved in every way and is much tighter compared to my '93. I do believe I'll be leaving the 100 home more which was the main goal of the purchase.

4. A/T Tires over MT Tires on my dedicated trail rig? They work super on my 100 and the MT's on my '93 I've always hated (except for looks). Today the AT's gripped super. I really doubt I'll regret this dicision and I get a great ride on-road all the time. Time will tell though. I did drive the below slickrock with 40PSI and zero slip.

VIBRATIONS: 2 experts checked my LX out today. Both believe everything is lined up perfect so we're puzzled about the vibes. One feels it's not too good on the trucks parts. The other feels it's not bad and I should drive it until the culprit shows itself. If not, he fears it'll be a money pit until the culprit gets replaced/fixed. ToolsRUs brought up a good question...."Your first D/C shaft was bad...they sent you a second new one...and the truck drives just the same? There should of been some improvement in having a good vs bad front driveshaft." ??? Hmmm, do we have another bad CV shaft?

We all agreed I should make no decisions on vibes until the front axle is rebuilt. It was popping on the driver's side some....though after the 1.5-hour off-road trip it's popping often. So, that's next and ASAP before any other runs.

Meanwhile, I'm really excited. This '97 LX is a big step ahead of my old '93 on the trail. I can't wait to really work it out after the axle rebuild.

http://shottscruisers.smugmug.com/photos/58685716-M.jpg
http://shottscruisers.smugmug.com/photos/58685725-M.jpg
http://shottscruisers.smugmug.com/photos/58685728-M.jpg
http://shottscruisers.smugmug.com/photos/58685739-M.jpg

[BajaTaco]

Wow, that thing has a wicked profile. Looks really nice John. Good luck with the poltergeists.

[Desertdude]

1- yes the 4:88'S really make a difference

2 - and you saved some coins ;)

3 - it is a different LC for sure

4 - if you wheel in mud you might have to rethink the A/T's


Hmmm, do we have another bad CV shaft?

You might - my DC shaft showed up with one U-joint cup half way out and the clip off hanging in the grease - ( can you say quality control?) I put it back together but I don't fell 100% about it - I am calling to talk with Ben at Slee tomorrow if they are back from Texas.

That said IMHO - the Slee 4" kit is quite complete - the PDF install info very accurate - and all the parts stout and well thought out.

Enjoy that rig and get it dirty!

[Westy]

cool truck, looks great. That approach/departure is impressive to say the least.

I'm always impressed by those 80 series. Infact this past weekend I was out with a bunch of out of towners, including the new owner of Slee's old school bus. Sweet rig, it worked well, did the terminators, elvis..and some others out near FJ.

As for the AT tires, I dont think it will be an issue of whether they give enough traction, but possibly if the sidewalls can withstand a beating in the rocks.

[LexusAllTerrain]

Congratulations Mr. ShottsCruisers on the buildup of your Lexus, your truck looks great!
:clapsmile

[ShottsCruisers]

Gracias Gracias everyone.

Also appreciate the comments on the vibrations. I think I have a plan that should shed some light before I consider shipping it to Slee for "experimentation". I need the front axle rebuilt NOW...it's not wheelable. When it's done if vibes still exist we'll drive it on the rack and use a scope to find the noise.

Eventually it'll be good as new. I think God is teaching me another round of patience in the game of life. Until then, once that axles rebuilt I'll wheel the snot out of it! ;)

[ShottsCruisers]

UPDATE: Front axle was rebuilt. No change.

DesertDude's ride is now finished, vibration-wise. He and Slee tried using Slee's front arms on a 4" lift height along with an OEM driveshaft. Enjoy Dude. You've earned it. :chowtime:

Slee and I decided to try the same on mine. I ordered a pair of arms and here's our plan:

1. Remove 4" Slee Caster Plates
2. R&R front control arms with Slee arms
Road test. We're hoping for sucess at this 5.5" height with these arms. (Due to caster change and re-placing of the front axle forward)

If not solved:

Remove the front 1.25" spacers and swap the D/C front shaft for an OEM shaft. This should put me to Dude's front height though I'll be a bit higher in the back.
Road test.

If not solved:
Drive to Slee Off-Road sometime soon. :(

[BajaTaco]

Good luck John. Keep us posted.

It was a real pleasure cruising through the Hackberry/Devil's canyon area with the LX.

[ShottsCruisers]

Good luck John. Keep us posted.

It was a real pleasure cruising through the Hackberry/Devil's canyon area with the LX.

Yes sir....AND passing you the next day in the hail storm on Park Link Road!

[BajaTaco]

Yes sir....AND passing you the next day in the hail storm on Park Link Road!

AHA!! I knew it was you!! :jumping:

[ShottsCruisers]

I AM WETTING MY PANTS! :D

All of the bad vibration and shudders are GONE! :beer:

We left the lift height alone (5.5" front and 5" rear), removed the front D/C shaft and Slee Caster Plates.

Then, we threw in the front arms from my '93 with OME CC bushings and the '93's front shaft.

All that's left is some minor grrrr and a tad of buzz-type vibes about 75-80MPH. I'm so excited! I'd drive it Moab the way it is now!

So, the plan is to buy a new OEM front shaft and throw it in. Then remove and re-balance the rear shaft and re-tune the rear upper arms.

If all the grrr doesn't get out I MIGHT remove those 1.25" front spacers and be done. Either way, an alignment's last.

WOO HOO!

[Desertdude]

I can hear the whole community breathing a sigh of relief along with you :victory:

That sound you hear could be the sounds of re-gearing - I have some of that and think that it is just that. Now get rid of those spacers and get to the 6" slee lift like the rest of us :D

[ShottsCruisers]

I can hear the whole community breathing a sigh of relief along with you :victory:

That sound you hear could be the sounds of re-gearing - I have some of that and think that it is just that. Now get rid of those spacers and get to the 6" slee lift like the rest of us :D

Nope. It's actually some grr grr. It'll go.

AND ARE YOU WACKO! After 6 months are crap change the springs now? You must hate my guts? You know what that'll mean!?

:ar15: SLEE 6" SPRINGS

Change more parts? :smileeek:

[Desertdude]

yeah I know GRR GRR - when you are cruising along...


:D time will tell :ar15:

[ShottsCruisers]

:D time will tell :ar15:

Oh, you're so right. You know why? I already have everything else on there. Pans, uppers. It'd be easy to try it in 5-10 years. :D

[clarkrw3]

Congrats on the Off Road mag artical shotts!!!:bowdown:

[ShottsCruisers]

Gracias! Ya....that whole mag is awesome!

[calamaridog]

John,

I'm glad you have begun to sort these problems out.

I've got someone burning that cd for me since I can't fix my burner. I should have it out soon.

-Bryan

[ShottsCruisers]

I'll have a new OEM driveshaft Monday. We'll throw it in and drive. If there's any vibes left I think I'll remove those front 1.25" spacers. I need them like a hole in the head. (5.5" front lift) That'll leave me with J's and 10mm trim packs. That lower height should just about kill any remaining vibes.

[LexusAllTerrain]

Congratulations on working all the bugs???:clapsmile

My nightmare will begin soon, since I am planning a 2.5" OME lift after the summer months:exclaim:
Oh! and remember I am used to the stock suspension minus the all terrain tires.

[ShottsCruisers]

UPDATE: YOU MIGHT NOT RECOGNIZE ME ON THE TRAIL NEXT TIME YOU SEE ME! :)

For some, that's a GOOD thing! :D

After numerous rock vs wheel flair contacts AND this recent body damage from a HUGE rock, I've decided to make some added changes that should better my "Rock Crawl Buildup".

The rock and the obstacle that bit me on the Sutherland Trail:

http://shottscruisers.smugmug.com/photos/223698891-O.jpg
http://shottscruisers.smugmug.com/photos/223698912-O.jpg

I had my guy try to fix the damaged area. It still looked so bad....that scraped trim was aweful! So, it was time to make a change.

We ripped all the Lexus trim off (except for the rear hatch). Then. he fixed my bad dents from the huge rock.

http://shottscruisers.smugmug.com/photos/223699019-O.jpg

Next, we used some spray-on lining to cover the old trim area along with partial hood coverage. Here's some sneak peeks:

http://shottscruisers.smugmug.com/photos/223699050-O.jpg
http://shottscruisers.smugmug.com/photos/223699089-O.jpg

Lastly we'll take that same 3/8" steel and side protect the rear quarters. When we're done I'll post up some pics.

I will say I have always liked the 80-series without the trim. It narrows the body, the tires stick out some and no more rock or tire catching on the flairs. This should be a good end result.

[adventureduo]

Looks good man.

[sleeoffroad]

Now put some decent size tires on that thing with rims with 1" less backspacing. Then you won't hit the body on the rocks so much.

[goodtimes]

Ya' know John, I have always found it pretty simple to avoid body damage on those 2.5 rated trails by simply driving AROUND the rocks...if there isn't enough room to drive around, then drive OVER them. Simple really.....


:shakin:

Are you sure about that 3/8" plate?!?! That is some heavy stuff! You are going to need permits to get that thing across state borders pretty soon! :cow:


When do we get to see it? And more importantly, when do we get to see it get dirty?


:)

[MaddBaggins]

Copy-cat!!

They say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. :sport_box

[ShottsCruisers]

SOCAL: Thanks!

SLEE: It won't fit in the garage with 37's or I'd have them.

GOODTIMES: It was total driver error that I mangled the truck!

BAGGINS: Joe Chott was the first I seen without flairs. He doesn't have Rhino though. :wings:

[MaddBaggins]

BAGGINS: Joe Chott was the first I seen without flairs. He doesn't have Rhino though. :wings:

I mean the way you did the liner silly. It looks just like mine.

[ShottsCruisers]

I mean the way you did the liner silly. It looks just like mine.

I know! :)

I went up onto the hood because the truck came with missing paint from a rock deflector. I had to cover that!

[MaddBaggins]

I know! :)

I went up onto the hood because the truck came with missing paint from a rock deflector. I had to cover that!


Now, when are you gonna ditch that non-flexing 6" kit and get that thing working right? I've got my girl dialed in now, no more screwing around. She drives straight and true, castor is in spec, no vibes and flexes nicely.

[ShottsCruisers]

Now, when are you gonna ditch that non-flexing 6" kit and get that thing working right? I've got my girl dialed in now, no more screwing around. She drives straight and true, castor is in spec, no vibes and flexes nicely.

I may not swap it out. Not sure. It's smooth and dialed in too. I do like the added breakover and ground clearance that ~7" up gives. It flexes much better since I lowered those rear top shock mounts. Running Sutherland first it was tippy and lifting wheels. Since the mount change I didn't lift a wheel on the same trail. I'll wheel the winter season then decide. Next might be lining the rest of the truck in bright RED. Seriously!