Unicat vs Action Mobil.

[DarrenM]

Why are Unicats so expensive ?

I have a quotation for a New Action Mobil based on their Temet design with the addition of an internal motorcycle garage. Body size is 4.6 mtr and all equipment is top spec. Price €320,000 including VAT.

http://www.actionmobil.com/page9/page9.html

A few days ago I noticed a used MAN EX-44 on the Unicat site, €295,000 for a five year old vehicle.

http://www.unicat.net/en/info/GEX44-MANM4x4.html

Both companies are using the same components to build their trucks. The only difference between the two vehicles is Recaro seats in the Unicat, Solar Power on the Action Mobil.

Buy new or used ???

[charlieaarons]

Are you SURE they have the same option list? The component description on either one of these vehicles is pages long - in my case, 11 pages.
I have been in the Unicat you describe. It is virtually unused. Also, that is an asking price for a used vehicle, and unlike a price for a bespoke new construction, it is somewhat negotiable.
The options for mine were 50-60000 euros.
Do you live outside N. America?
I would think long and hard before taking up valuable interior storage space with a motorcycle garage. The rear storage area of mine is full of recovery gear, tools, ladder, folding chairs, sand mats. Where you going to put that stuff if you store a motorcycle there instead of outside?
Welcome to the Expo forum.

Charlie

[Jnich77]

Maybe its like a Harley... people pay extra for the name?

[ColinTheCop]

I suppose the used one will have had 21k miles worth of a shakedown and any teething problems will be sorted.


I'm very jealous of your dilema. :drool:

[DarrenM]

Are you SURE they have the same option list?
Do you live outside N. America?
I would think long and hard before taking up valuable interior storage space with a motorcycle garage.

Charlie

Thanks for the responses. My quote from Action Mobil is comprehensive.
It is fully fitted out, central/under floor heating, fresh, grey and black water tanks, roof hatches, solar power, shore connections, water filtration, exterior lockers, proper toilet, additional storage cupboards, air conditioning, 500Ah battery, inverter, two fuel tanks, fridge/freezer, 3 ring stove, teak floor, passage to cab.....etc.

Unicat has hydraulic motorcycle lift, Action Mobil is electric.

The TC45 body Unicat has on special offer (€140k) is comparable on spec and price to a similar size Action Mobil body.

I am considering if storing the motorcycle internally is worthwhile, as you say it will take up a lot of space. They do fit aircraft style runners inside the 'garage' door to secure items. I can also add an internal storage area to overcome this but it will add 400mm to the body length, it will keep the overall length under 7 mtr.

I do love the name 'UniCat'.

[DarrenM]

I suppose the used one will have had 21k miles worth of a shakedown and any teething problems will be sorted.


I'm very jealous of your dilema. :drool:

It will also make the Carnet cheaper as the chassis is worth about half the cost of a new MAN.

[charlieaarons]

One enormous advantage of the used vehicle: it is Euro III emissions, does not require AdBlue or ultra low sulfur fuel.
If you buy the new MAN chassis, I would consider adding an extra very large AdBlue tank ~100-150L. But you still have the problem of sulfur in the fuel messing up the catalysts (both oxidation and reduction).

Charlie

[Victorian]

I met people that first bought "cheaper" and after the first tour they changed their mind and bought from Unicat!

I also have seen "cheaper" options being ripped apart after the first few off road miles.

Go with Unicat, they keep the value and wont let you down.

Cheers,
Andreas

[DarrenM]

Thanks again for the responses, it is helping me clarify my choices.

One enormous advantage of the used vehicle: it is Euro III emissions, does not require AdBlue or ultra low sulfur fuel.
If you buy the new MAN chassis, I would consider adding an extra very large AdBlue tank ~100-150L. But you still have the problem of sulfur in the fuel messing up the catalysts (both oxidation and reduction).

Charlie

I believe MAN Trucks are one of the few that don't require any additives to achieve Euro 5. In 2014 the regulations are getting tighter, I think that may cause problems.

Am I correct to assume the sulfur destroys the catalysts but does not affect running only emissions ? I had a similar problem with my motorcycle exhaust system using leaded fuel.


I met people that first bought "cheaper" and after the first tour they changed their mind and bought from Unicat!

I also have seen "cheaper" options being ripped apart after the first few off road miles.

Go with Unicat, they keep the value and wont let you down.

Cheers,
Andreas

The core components they use for the build all come from the same suppliers; Seagull Filtration, AGM Batterys, Sealand Toilets, Webasto heaters....

Action Mobil can supply a body mounted to a chassis for €150k (excluding VAT), Unicat €160k. Both have identical specifications. The Unicat is a special offer price, reduced by €60k. At normal pricing that would be a 30% difference in price.

As you say Andreas perhaps it has to be down to build quality. I think a visit to Germany and Austria is needed before making a decision.

Do we have any Action Mobil owners on here ???

[Ford Prefect]

I have not seen anyone who has an AM on here. Personally I think they are pretty nice vehicles though. Of course I have not traveled to see them, so I can only speak from what I have read online.

I fully agree with Charlie, and I Can tell you that many people here see him as a stand-up good guy, who knows his stuff.

I also agree that the Euro III will make a huge difference, everything I have read tells me that those newer engines, and the same with the USA new engines, terrible to take out of the first world countries.

I do not know about Action mobile, but I do know that Unicat is VERY customer oriented. When you buy a new one (and I do not know if they do this for used) they will take you out on a trip and stay with you until you feel comfortable and have learned everything you want to know about the trucks. That is pretty cool, in my opinion.

Good luck in your choice, we would love to hear all about your trips, and what you glean from them.

Layout wise... I personally think that the Unicat layout is really nice, IF You happen to have a little ball and several little pins to knock over. Otherwise the AM has a much more open concept layout. I feel claustrophobic just looking at the photos of most unicats.

Cheers
Brian

[fuoristrada camper]

The MAN TGM series does not need ad blue even in the new Euro V configuration.
De bigger series TGS , TGA do require ad blue.
The higher sulfur did not (yet) destroy our PDF filters trough our latest Africa trips ( not in the trucks and neither in the Jeep Jk's Crd). The PDF gets really hot and simply burns the sulfur. Exhaust trip gets a nice green color :)

My very very personal idea on Unicat, and I do not want to offence anyone, : they deliver very good stuff , but they have a hughe workshop to pay and lot's of craftsman on the payroll.

I think there are other constructors , who spend less money on public relations who deliver also good material and are lots cheaper for equal quality.
And ,by the way, there's is also a difference in price between the Unicat series and the Terra Cross series.

And at Action Mobil you can choose between more "sporty" trucks and more "luxery " trucks , and there will be a difference in price for sure

And latest remark : to bee honest , building a truck with an inside motorcyle garage and max; length of 7 metres , will be a hard challenge I think.

Our truck is is 6.99 m long ( without spare tires on the back) and like Charlie says , the garage in the back is full off equipment , material , foodsupplies etc.. and a bike inside would only be an option for weekend trips. On a longer body maybe but on this body lenght ???

[DarrenM]

Again thanks for all your responses.

I have a design to fit a motorcycle inside and 500+ Liter of extra storage. Total length 7.07 mtr excluding spare wheel on back.

I will keep you informed of my decision.

[dzzz]

.......... I think a visit to Germany and Austria is needed before making a decision.

Do we have any Action Mobil owners on here ???

I think you will very much enjoy visiting both vendors. Victorian here is a former Unicat employee. I don't recall any Action Mobil owners.

Good luck and let us know your decision.

[mike_monster03]

Hello,
it sounds great do have the choice bedween Unicat and AM but I totally agree with fluoristrada camper: check out the other european companys. There are some others who also build in high quality and reliable standard to reasonable prices.
Best regards
Mike

[CoastalDefender]

You guys have me wanting to sell everything I have and live in an AM or Unicat!

[ColinTheCop]

You guys have me wanting to sell everything I have and live in an AM or Unicat!


If I sold everything I own, I'd still fall a long way short. :(

[charlieaarons]

Regarding MAN and Euro 4-5 emissions:
MAN offers 2 options:
1) AdBlue, catalysts (SCR), no DPF (diesel particulate filter)
2) No AdBlue, but heavy EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) and DPF.

On the face of it #2 sounds better. it was the American solution for 2007-10. But all the Americans except Navistar are going to #1 for 2010. Heavy EGR with active regenerating DPF to burn the clouds of soot produced by heavy EGR eats fuel, dirties the oil and wears out the engine quicker. Fuel mileage in US engines is up 5% for 2010 vs 2007 (Detroit Diesel DD15) to 25-30% (Ford Scorpion 6.7 vs Powerstroke 6.4).
Both options require ultra low sulfur fuel though that can be "bent" for a while, and lower sulfur/phosphorus/ash (SAPS) lube oil which is easily found.
Tough decision, but after 2010 or certainly 2013 #1 will be the only option.
Except it will be #1 + DPF.

Charlie

[DarrenM]

Thanks charlie.

The rest of the world is catching up.
"By the 25th of November 2008, a limited number of YPF gas stations will began to sell a diesel fuel named “EURO DIESEL” that will contain 50 or less ppm of sulfur. This imported diesel will supply the demand for EURO IV fuel requirements, mainly for high-end cars that could not be sold because of the poor diesel quality."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-low_sulfur_diesel

Africa has no plans for ULSD. Perhaps an older chassis with a new cabin is the best way forward for me.

[hl3g]

Hello I am back; I think it has been more then 1 year that I did not visit the forum. At that time I was looking to build my Expedition Truck based on an Isuzu NPR. Finally the weight capacity made me change my mind (this Expedition Truck needs to suit 2 adults and 3 kids). Decision is made I go for the Man TGM 13.250 4x4 BB (Crew cab). The order is on its way to Man Germany. However I am still hesitating on two options:
Fulltime 4x4 or 4x2 switchable in 4x4.
Wheels size 22.5" or 20"

What do you recommend and why?

Looking forward for your inputs.

Cheers.

Hubert.

[charlieaarons]

If you intend on using the truck in N European winters get the fulltime 4WD.
Regarding wheels, 395/85R20 and 14.00R20 have a bigger footprint
at low pressure than 385/65R22.5. Even 365/80R20 are better in
footprint. Also multipiece rims are workable in the field (20");
22.5" require a big tire machine.
I carry 2 unmounted spares on my roof.

Charlie

[haven]

22.5 is the standard heavy truck tire size world-wide. The 20 inch wheel diameter is used more for tactical trucks and certain off-road machinery. So it will be more difficult to find a replacement tire for a 20 inch rim. Best to do like Charlie does, and carry a couple of spare unmounted tires!

Re full time or part time 4x4, I'd be inclined to choose part time 4x4. Better to get into trouble in 2WD and have 4WD to get you unstuck. If you get stuck in 4WD, in a big MAN truck you may be stuck for good!

[charlieaarons]

But recall that all the AWD trucks have 3 diff locks.
You have less traction with the center diff
open than in part time 4wd. When I start using the diff
lock switch I get careful. Fulltime 4wd is a big
safety factor in winter driving.
If you plan very little off tarmac driving get 22.5s.
Otherwise, get 20s.

Charlie

[hl3g]

"You have less traction with the center diff
open than in part time 4wd."

Here I just learn something, I did not know that! So better going with 4x2 then 4x4 fulltime.

Regarding the wheels size you recommend 20" for Off road and 22.5" for tarmac. I guess that 22.5" are more comfortable, right?

Thanks for your inputs guys!

Cheers.

Hubert.

[hl3g]

I checked with Man and the truck comes with 22.5" as a standard. To switch to 20" they are asking 3900 Euros. I guess I will stay with the 22.5".
Can you recommend me with, apart from the Michelin XZL, which accepts low pressure? Apparently from what I heard the Conti MPT81 does not perform with low pressure!
Cheers.

Hubert.

[hl3g]

hello,

Changing subject.
I am looking for feedback about the Battery to Battery charger option (http://www.sterling-power.com/products-battbatt-install.htm).
Was this already discussed on the forum if yes please let me know where?

Thanks in advance.

Hubert.

[MultiSmog]

I visited Action Mobile in Austria to check their campers, their attention to detail is impressive, production quality is superb and the finess of their designs is "tasteful". No ugly cheap looking flowery type upholstery here.
Every single part either bought or hand-made at their shop is top-notch.

[charlieaarons]

"You have less traction with the center diff
open than in part time 4wd."

Here I just learn something, I did not know that! So better going with 4x2 then 4x4 fulltime.

Regarding the wheels size you recommend 20" for Off road and 22.5" for tarmac. I guess that 22.5" are more comfortable, right?

Thanks for your inputs guys!

Cheers.

Hubert.

NO!
If driving on ice fulltime 4wd is safer; less chance of a spinout!

Charlie

[fuoristrada camper]

Honestly , I think it will be easier to find an XZL in 20 inch all over the world than an XZL in 22.5 inch .....
But 22.5 in "construction" tread can easly be found.
Not sure about the price , I only have the option code on my invoice . My truck came with Conti MPT 81 , I will do Iceland with them this summer , but I already have two XZL spares and before leaving to South America in 2013 the truck will be on XZL for sure

[mogwildRW1]

Be sure to check into Unicat's reputation and past dealings before handing over massive amounts of cash to them..

[Ford Prefect]

Be sure to check into Unicat's reputation and past dealings before handing over massive amounts of cash to them..

Have you heard things the rest of us have not? I have never heard anyone complain about unicat. Please do share...

Charliearrons,

I am not sure I follow what you are saying about full time 4x4 being better than selectable 4x4. Can you please elaborate on that as well?

Cheers

[charlieaarons]

I am not sure I follow what you are saying about full time 4x4 being better than selectable 4x4. Can you please elaborate on that as well?

Cheers

It's definitely better if you drive on ice or even wet surfaces like icy tarmac. Simply locking the center diff switches it into "selectable" 4WD.

Charlie

[mogwildRW1]

Have you heard things the rest of us have not? I have never heard anyone complain about unicat. Please do share...

Charliearrons,

I am not sure I follow what you are saying about full time 4x4 being better than selectable 4x4. Can you please elaborate on that as well?

Cheers

From a Benzworld post:


Without beating around the bush, Tom Ritter and the folks from UNICAT are crooks.

Why? Well, how about taking substantial deposits from customers or running up bills with vendors, only to file bankruptcy shortly thereafter.

CROOKS!

They are now reorganized and taking people's money again.

Sell them your UNIMOG, but make sure you have money wired to your account first.

I have heard the same elsewhere, they took a bunch of deposits, went under, then opened back up for business

As for Full Time Four Wheel Drive (Or AWD for that Matter) vs Part time Four Wheel Drive, the nice thing about full time is you don't have to activate it. Say your driving on the road and hit a patch of black ice, the sensors in the vehicles AWD or FT4WD system will react within milliseconds, and send power to the appropriate wheel, or brake the appropriate wheel. I you were in a part time four wheel drive, with the 4wd off, by the time you reached up/down to hit the 4wd button/pull the lever, your already in the ditch or oncoming traffic. For a daily driver or if most of your traveling is on road, AWD or Full time 4wd makes more sense.

Likewise if your driving on smooth pavement, the full time system will keep the components from binding up and damaging themselves. Unlike a true 4wd, if you left it locked in 4wd all the time, you'd end up breaking or wearing components.

The downsides to Full time or AWD (different systems, and within each manufacture, there are different systems, for instance not all quattro systems are the same, as not all subaru systems are the same) is generally worse fuel economy, lack of low range (on most AWD) and higher wear and tear, as the system is engaged all the time. Your tires for instance might need rotated with greater frequency, fluids changed more often, ect. But with modern vehicles, that's becoming less and less a concern. There's also more complexity when something goes wrong, wheel speed sensors, computer modules, ect. And more of a chance of the vesicle being stuck in "limp" mode in event of a failure.

[Ford Prefect]

Thanks Gents.

I have a full time 4wd vehicle, with low range, and I rather like it a lot, but I also know that I go through tires faster than I would like, and I tend to go through a lot more fuel than I would like. Other than that I really do enjoy not having to shift into 4wd when the time comes that it is needed, and MUCH more importantly than that I like that my wife does not have to do it. She never confidence to know when it would be good to have it on, or not, and therefore the vehicle makes the choice for her, which for me is safer for my family. (which is not meant as an insult to my wife, she is rather brilliant in fact. :) )

[charlieaarons]

The fulltime 4wd in MANs and U500s is just a lockable (by driver
input) center diff. No computer control.
In 2006 Unicat went through an insolvency. Some creditors are very
angry at them. They have provided me excellent post sales
service.

Charlie

[George]

I heard some complains about unicat. At beginning of the business everything is fine und it is a pleasure to deal with this guys (Söllner and Ritter). But in the final phase there are a lot of dicussion about payment, failure, quality und the time of finish the vehicle to 100%.
On the other hand they are still in financial trouble. You should check ther balance sheet.