Camping with Firearm-Post Bear Mauling

[ECVMatt]

Just curios if anyone has changed their opinion about camping with a firearm after the MT bear mauling?

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/montana-bear-attack-victim-deb-freele-speaks/story?id=11277179

This in not a hate bears thread or bears are stalking the woods trying to kill us or meant to be anything negative, I am just wondering if it makes more sense to folks now?

[Mr. Leary]

It will make me double check my bear spray...

Not sure a firearm is gonna help nearly as much as bear spray when you are in a tent...

[Chazz Layne]

Nope, I still feel the same and still load slugs into the 12ga. when I'm in bear country just in case. :victory:



Agreed on the tent issue. If I slept in a tent I would probably keep bear spray handy as my first grab item too...:Wow1:

[Errant]

All of these people were asleep when attacked? In the dark, in close proximity to each other? All food was properly stored? I don't think a firearm would have done much good.

[AYIAPhoto]

I don't think a firearm would have done much good.Firearm, bear spray, anything short of sleeping in a "bear box" would have failed. Still would have had the 12ga though. Not too fond of spray in an enclosed space. On the hip while out of the tent sure, but if I blind myself I'm really stuck.

[JIMBO]

:sombrero: I don't remember, wheather or not they were told of increased bear action, or not--

If not, we've been sleeping in tents for 100's of years and the No. of attacks are pretty low, so their No. was up !!

If I'm in an area and there has been recent bear action, We sleep in the Jeep, was a Xterra, but I'll keep my .45 handy anyway !!

:costumed-smiley-007:wings: JIMBO

[dzzz]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/US_M18a1_claymore_mine.jpg

[Mr. Leary]

Firearm, bear spray, anything short of sleeping in a "bear box" would have failed. Still would have had the 12ga though. Not too fond of spray in an enclosed space. On the hip while out of the tent sure, but if I blind myself I'm really stuck.

getting blinded sucks... but you can bet that bear would have nothing to do with a tent full of bear spray... it would be your best bet... grab and squeeze... nothing to it.

your never gonna outrun a bear, much less at night... and would be unlikely to get off a good shot in the dark... especially if you are half asleep and have to worry about hitting folks in the camp site next to you. Trying to make it to your truck might work... if the bear was not in close proximity meaning you harm.

An unfortunate incident, for sure. However, I believe a gun would definitely not be the right tool for the job in this case.

I'm liking the idea of sleeping in my critter bag (RTT) more and more...

Keep bear spray for bears. Keep boom sticks for crazy people...

[dzzz]

Just by the numbers in a campground it's more likely to need to help someone being attack rather than protecting oneself. That would be tough to do with a gun. In this attack I'm sure some people were ineffective because they were scared, and some because they were unprepared.
The bears attacked at 4am, the same time a SWAT team would storm a building. It's suppose to be the slowest time for human reaction. I would like to think I would be prepared to help, but who knows until it happens.

[Wyowanderer]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/US_M18a1_claymore_mine.jpg


OOOOOOOOOOO! do you have any spares?:sombrero:

[stolenheron]

bear spray? there was a nice 1 hour documentary on animal planet on the bison herds in yellowstone. they were darting, taking samples, and tagging the animals. When 1 bison was downed, the herd still tried to protect its fallen member. the animals backed up with the approach of the scientists, park rangers, etc, but 1 was still a little pesky. they use bear mace on the thing animal (which was not being aggressive). The bison simple snorted and kept its ground. it was agitated at that point, but a second blast of mace made it back off....

now if any of you have been around large predators whether that be big cats, bears, wolves, crocodiles, etc. When they get their sights set on something or are in a fit of rage, generally a defense as "light" as bear mace won't do jacksh**. you're lucky if a combat knife can stop them. sure, plenty of attacks get fended off with just your hands alone, but those animals were generally curious and were not acting defensively or in a "rogue" nature. from the description of the attack, it wouldn't have mattered what you carried, that bear had its blinders on and was set to kill.

example: I share my backyard and nearly every possible moment outdoors in alligator country. 2 weeks ago a 10.5ft gator attacked a teenager swimming in a canal at night about 25 minutes from my house. The gator latched on to one arm when the teen was in the water. the teen fought back with his other arm and with a few punches the gator popped the arm off and left. The teenager lived. he was lucky that the alligator didnt deem him a threat. Had that gator been acting on territorial instincts and not compulsive/curious hunger, that kid would have been drowned and ripped to pieces in a matter of minutes.

a bear will act no different. bear mace is pretty futile IMO against a grizzly acting out of aggression or protecting cubs. pepper spray will be one heck of a hail mary if you're trying to stop a mother protecting its cubs or a territorial male. If the grizzly is simply exploring a campsite, sure, it'll probably shake them up pretty damn good. My best advice is to carry a substantial firearm in a tent AS WELL AS MACE. a 12g is probably your best bet if you're gonna leave it at camp. if you have to use a pistol, something .45 or a .50 would be the only thing that could make a bear flinch. if you don't believe in firearms or are unable to carry one, bearmace and anything else you can grab is about as good as anything. Keep bear mace on you WITH a firearm as well. if the situation calls for less than lethal force, you have an option to let both you and the bear walk away...but if it turns bad, you have a better chance of making it than you would with just a less than lethal method of defense.

I would be heartbroken if i had to shoot a bear. I'm a HUGE animal lover. I am an avid hiker, herpetologist (amateur until i graduate with my degree), fisherman, and hunter. Predators are amazing animals and by far the most fun to observe in the wild. You best "defense" against an animal is to prevent them from getting close in the first place. while hiking and hunting that can be a problem, but while camping it isn't. Properly storing food and disposing of trash correctly will greatly reduce the likelihood of a bear or any other "opportunist" from entering camp.

and in all honesty. do NOT freak out just because an attack occurred. hysteria is not necessary and is a terrible thing. it gets animals killed for no reason and people in trouble. just stay alert and take necessary precautions, cant do any more than that other than to not go out in the woods at all.

[Wiley]

Anyone who read the article would most likely agree that neither bear spray, nor a gun would have been effective in this situation. That being said, I agree that a gun would probably be worse in this situation, between the hour of night, the other people around who could potentially get hit, and the general chaos that must have ensued...but who knows without being in that situation.

[aires35]

we camp in Big Bend drive-in primitive sites along the Rio Grande. i always carry a firearm, loaded and chambered when there. we don't have grizzly's, but plenty of other threats.
if you feel it necessary to carry a firearm, for your sake and others around you, PLEASE GET TRAINING!!! get professional training, and then go to the range often.
i believe the old adage, "i'd rather have a gun and not need it, the need a gun and not have it."

[Street Wolf]

Firearm wouldn't do any good? You aren't carrying the right firearm. :sombrero:

[IdaSHO]

As I mentioned in the other thread,

A "campground" bear is completely different than the bear you might encounter in the back country.

A campground bear has an objective. And it is a simple one. Find and retrieve food. By any means necessary. They know that campers carry food, so they look for it, and take it by force if need be.

Back-country bears really want nothing to do with you. Just be sure you dont startle them, as they will respond in a matter you probably wont approve of. :Wow1:

Knowing this, VERY few hand guns will put a bear down. I carry a .40 semi-auto any time we are out in the woods. But I know my chances of actually surviving a bear attack, gun or not, are quite slim.

In order to put one down with a hand gun, you'd have to wait for the bear to show you a soft spot, to allow a clear shot at vitals. Good luck with that.:coffee: Id also recommend nothing short of a .45

[Mr. Leary]

One of the reasons why my hiking pistol is a Taurus Judge. All the smack of a .45LC, but the versatility of a .410.

... but still not much use with a bear on top of you in your tent...

[BigAl]

I sleep so soundly that in this situation i'd be done:snorkel: But if my number is truely up, getting mauled by a bear would be kind of a rush. I mean it would beat an extended illness at least.:ylsmoke:

[Corey]

I will be in black bear country in a week for my vacation.
I just ordered two of these from Amazon.
Falcon Safety Super Sound Horn

Thinking of picking this up up also, but I think the horns will be a good start.
FRONTIERSMAN Bear Attack Deterrent with Hip Holster

I really do not want to lug my Colt AR15 with me :D
I would rather have a Taurus Judge to take for that situation.

[stolenheron]

I will be in black bear country in a week for my vacation.
I just ordered two of these from Amazon.
Falcon Safety Super Sound Horn (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000AXTVF/ref=ox_ya_os_product)

Thinking of picking this up up also, but I think the horns will be a good start.
FRONTIERSMAN Bear Attack Deterrent with Hip Holster (http://www.amazon.com/FRONTIERSMAN-Bear-Attack-Deterrent-Holster/dp/B002E6VAHK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1280480722&sr=8-1)

I really do not want to lug my Colt AR15 with me :D
I would rather have a Taurus Judge to take for that situation.

a black bear out in the woods (unless with cubs) generally is no threat. most black bears will run off or shoot up the nearest tree when they run into folks....unless they are around campgrounds, trash dumps, or "on missions" as IdaSHO mentioned.

i've seen black bears run away from border collies....but that doesnt mean they cant kill you

[Corey]

Yeah, this will be up at Mt. Rainier where some campers who do not know better leave food out at night.

I will be out hiking too on the trails, that is where I have ran across bears in the past, they usually just scamper off of the trail.

Still, seeing one like that coming around a corner makes the heart thump.

In all of my years backpacking up there though way back into the wilderness at Rainier I never encountered a bear.
Came face to face with big elk and plenty of dear though.

One time I was setting up camp after hiking in about 4.5 miles from the trailhead I had this feeling I was being watched.
I turned around and a huge elk about 10' from me was just standing there watching me put my tent up.
I guess he was more curious than anything, and when I tired to get to the 35 mm camera, he walked off.

[07 Elephant]

No ground tents in bear country. We RRT owners often joke about being safe from lions and tigers and bears but in this case it proves true. I'm not saying the bear couldn't climb up and get at the soft treats inside the Maggiolia but I think I'd have a few extra seconds/minutes to take some action. Bear spray, my gun? Either way it's better than waking up to a bear inside my ground tent and on top of me. And it sound like this lady had extreme presence of mind to go limp and play dead...can you imagine? Amazing.

[Corey]

I saw her on the local news last night, pretty amazing.
It would take a lot of self control to play dead, as I would want to go ninja on that bear :D

That would be a deadly mistake on my part.
Unless of course I was Chuck Norris, then the bear has no chance.

[DrMoab]

It won't change anything for me. I always have carried a gun and this doesn't change anything.

While true in that particular situation it may not help but that isn't the only situation out there.

I carry a Ruger Alaskan .454 Casuall. Trust me...it WILL stop a bear.

[BorregoWrangler]

Doesn't change much for me either. I'll still have my 12ga. with me in my tent. Although this does make me want to get a RTT now.

[JIMBO]

:sombrero: Get a hatch tent and leave your tailgate/hatch open, works for me

Just make sure your keys are handy !!

:costumed-smiley-007:bike_rider: JIMBO

[Lichen]

It won't change anything for me. I always have carried a gun and this doesn't change anything.

While true in that particular situation it may not help but that isn't the only situation out there.

I carry a Ruger Alaskan .454 Casuall. Trust me...it WILL stop a bear.

But it won't stop Chuck Norris!

[AYIAPhoto]

I will be in black bear country in a week for my vacation.
I just ordered two of these from Amazon.
Falcon Safety Super Sound Horn (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000AXTVF/ref=ox_ya_os_product)Before I sold it, my Explorer had air horns wired to the alarm(much harder to ignore than the stock horn) and had a separate button in the back to sound them a well. A few times either the panic button on the remote was used while walking back to the truck, or the interior button was used while sleeping in the truck to spook a bear away. Still had the bear spray and shotgun, just a continuum of force.
Two days ago while working, I pulled into a parking lot of a deli in W. Milford NJ. The lot is separated from the deli by creek and abuts a wooded area. Smack in the middle of the lot was a 300 some pound black bear. Used to cars and traffic, it did not budge when I pulled in with my tri-axle dump. I wish I had brought a camera. After about ten minutes, and me starving, I gave the air horns a good toot. He looked at the truck and walked away. Had this been a bear out in the boonies he probably would have ran. This lead me to two conclusions, 1: start carrying my camera at work more often 2: the next travel/camping truck is getting air horns.LOUD ONES:)

[VikingVince]

FWIW...I live in a mountain area...had a black bear on the deck of my cabin a couple weeks ago. I have one of those loud air horns in a can that are usually found on boats...this thing is loud/my neighbor can hear it half a mile away. I blasted it repeatedly at the bear for 20 minutes and the bear totally ignored it. (there was no food around either) Finally he just ambled off...for no particular reason that I could determine.

[IdaSHO]

:sombrero: Get a hatch tent and leave your tailgate/hatch open, works for me

Just make sure your keys are handy !!

:costumed-smiley-007:bike_rider: JIMBO

A bear, black, brown grizzly, dont matter....


Can and will tear into a vehicle like a can opener into a can of tuna, if he wants something inside.

Ive got photos somewhere that my wife took when she worked as a "bear tech" for Inyo National Forests, in the High Sierra out of Lone Pine CA.

She documented 20+ cases of bear related car-breakins every year. Most had the window frames on the passenger doors peeled back, other had the entire rear hatches removed. A small percentage had windows simply punched out.

Many were the result of simply not covering up an ice chest in the back of a vehicle. Even if empty. The bears had learned that those white chests contained food, and they searched for them.

[Corey]

I keep my dry food in an Action Packer in the rig below me when it is time to turn in for the night.
During the day it it out on the table.

Up at Mt. Rainier campground or in its foothills which is the Greenwater area where I backcountry camp like last year, would it be better if I was hanging this Action Packer from a rope and over a tree?

When I use to backpack in bear country at Mt. rainier years ago, I carried all the food in the nylon bags with the drawcord and plastic lock.
I would tie a rope to it and throw it up over a limb with small diameter white rope and tie it off to a tree limb as high as I could.

And being up higher in a roof top tent is not really going to stop a bear since when they stand up they are quite tall.
Not the black bears so much, but the grizzly bears are quite tall.
The latter I do not have to worry about here in Western Washington.

Well the two airhorns I ordered yesterday should be showing up within a few hours.

[Flounder]

Nope. I've lived, played and worked in dense Alaskan brown bear country. While these events are extremely sad, few would be thwarted with a firearm.

All I have needed is a lot of smarts, a dose of luck and a can of spray.

[RMP&O]

All I have needed is a lot of smarts, a dose of luck and a can of spray.

Totally agree!

[Bugspray]

Totally agree!

x2!!

that being said this has been a crazy bear year so I've been rolling deep with bearspray AND shotgun even into the Park. Apparently there is a Cougar(not the good kind) hanging around the ski area, it has been spotted by people riding the gondola. Cats scare me more than bears as you would not even see it coming.....

[IdaSHO]

Cats scare me more than bears as you would not even see it coming.....

What scares me is that I KNOW that many of the cats that see me, I never even know about.

They are excellent hunters, and stay stay hidden amazingly well.

That, and their cry sends chills down my spine. :Wow1:

[Mr. Leary]

Lucky for us... our anatomy makes us a more difficult kill for this near perfect predator...

[slus]

I actually drove through Cooke City that night, glad I didn't set up camp there. The opinion of locals seemed to be that it was a stupid idea to tent camp there in the first place due to the frequency of bear visits, many of the campgrounds in the area are open to hard sided RVs only, just for that reason. This campground was not one of those, although I have a feeling it may make the list soon.

I rarely take a gun in the tent with me. I'm usually in the company of others. Firing off a gun capable of stopping a bear, in close proximity to people, shooting blind through a tent or while being mauled by a bear sounds more dangerous than the bear itself IMO.

[Corey]

My two airhorns came today, very loud.
One will stay up in the roof top tent with me, and the other will be on a table or nearby during the day/night.

When I am hiking, I will have it with me.

[IdaSHO]

Lucky for us... our anatomy makes us a more difficult kill for this near perfect predator...

Your anatomy has nothing to do with it.

Strip a human of anything man-made, and there is no contest.

[Jnich77]

It will make me double check my bear spray...

Not sure a firearm is gonna help nearly as much as bear spray when you are in a tent...

Well lets see... can your spray go through a tent... I know for a fact that a bullet will.

[Mr. Leary]

Your anatomy has nothing to do with it.

Strip a human of anything man-made, and there is no contest.

Actually, the way our shoulders and necks are shaped, it makes it almost impossible for a mountain lion to achieve a quick kill on a human, allowing the possability of fighting it off, which happens in most of the cases. You will be injured, for sure, but likely not killed during the attack.


Well lets see... can your spray go through a tent... I know for a fact that a bullet will.

Correct... and right through another one... and into another person... or into what you are shooting at... depends how lucky you are... I'd rather take my chances with the spray. You may be different than I, but I will never take a shot at anything without positively identifying my target.

[Jnich77]

Correct... and right through another one... and into another person... or into what you are shooting at... depends how lucky you are... I'd rather take my chances with the spray. You may be different than I, but I will never take a shot at anything without positively identifying my target.

I am proficient enough I have no qualms about shooting a bear. But you are correct, you have to knwo the back drop when shooting.

As for the spray, won't it get you if you use it in a tent.... I mean..just thinking it would make you very ineffective in a matter of seconds....lol.

[DrMoab]

Correct... and right through another one... and into another person... or into what you are shooting at... depends how lucky you are

Luck has nothing to do with it if you know what you are doing.

[squatch]

keeping a clean camp goes a long way to prevent encounters, there are a lot of bears in that area. ran into 3 griz not but a mile from cooke city out on a trail run.did have my water bottle with. bear spray works so does curling up fetal and s##ting yourself! really ask my buddy, had a bear jump him so fast all he could do was play dead and s##t. yeah he had a 44 and a 300 win. mag. talks cheap bears are way faster then you think! HEY BEAR?

[Bugspray]

They ended up catching the three cubs and it turns out they were very malnourished weighing around 60-70 lbs where normally they should be 80-130 lbs. They think the sow was just desperate to feed her cubs. Park officials euthanized the sow and are doing additonal tests to see if there was anything else wrong injury, illness etc. Kinda sad for all involved.

[Mr. Leary]

I am proficient enough I have no qualms about shooting a bear. But you are correct, you have to knwo the back drop when shooting.

As for the spray, won't it get you if you use it in a tent.... I mean..just thinking it would make you very ineffective in a matter of seconds....lol.

I don't doubt YOUR proficiency, and would probably trust your judgement if I was camping with you. I know you've spent some time over in the sandbox... but I WOULD worry about the judgement of someone I knew absolutely nothing about.

I'm not talking about using the spray to fog your tent like bug bomb for bears... just grabbing it instead of a firearm and doing the best you can while rudely awakened to a bear eating you.


Luck has nothing to do with it if you know what you are doing.

I'm pretty handy with firearms. Not competition good, but I can hold my own. I would still grab the spray first.


They ended up catching the three cubs and it turns out they were very malnourished weighing around 60-70 lbs where normally they should be 80-130 lbs. They think the sow was just desperate to feed her cubs. Park officials euthanized the sow and are doing additonal tests to see if there was anything else wrong injury, illness etc. Kinda sad for all involved.

Indeed. Very sad.

[Jnich77]

I don't doubt YOUR proficiency, and would probably trust your judgement if I was camping with you. I know you've spent some time over in the sandbox... but I WOULD worry about the judgement of someone I knew absolutely nothing about.

I'm not talking about using the spray to fog your tent like bug bomb for bears... just grabbing it instead of a firearm and doing the best you can while rudely awakened to a bear eating you.





Ya know, I was thinking about it.. I am more scared to camp where bears are really active than I am walking down the side of the road in Iraq...lmao

[DrMoab]

I'm pretty handy with firearms. Not competition good, but I can hold my own. I would still grab the spray first.

It's always the last option. I just feel more secure knowing its still an option.

[Scenic WonderRunner]

Can't we just camp with Pancakes....and then when the big guy shows up, just chuck a few out the tent!:elkgrin::ylsmoke:


http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39286



.

[Mr. Leary]

Can't we just camp with Pancakes....and then when the big guy shows up, just chuck a few out the tent!:elkgrin::ylsmoke:


http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39286



.

War Pancakes??? :coffeedrink:

[ruger1]

Yeah that's a great idea, my wifes pancakes could be used as a weapon. Hard as a rock so I could sharpen them like a flint point. Kinda like a Japanese trowing pancake.:)

[ETAV8R]

We're heading to the Sierras next weekend. Definitely have the bear spray and will keep it close. I do believe at least one firearm will be brought along too. Although a rifle probably isn't the best idea for bears but it isnt the reason it is coming along.

Anyone know a good place to let off a couple rounds up in the Sierra Nevada? Nothing illegal mind you, thats why I'm asking.

[Corey]

Who will be the first to do it?
We have all seen the pancake on the bunny head pics, just search Google.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSdoswazkz85whg91p2YaQhUvvttAseY 0iXEe0wUwUw1935uMw&t=1&usg=__KuCPsSxSeKh2M8RGwd7LW1aH3mI=

Who will get a pic of one on a bears head?
Going to have to taser that bear to get it to hold still for ya.

[ETAV8R]

Speaking of tasers, I wonder what that would do to a bear. Probably just piss it off even more.

http://www.itaser.com/img/accessories/taser_c2_icon.png

http://www.itaser.com/

[Corey]

Probably no worse than a bee sting to them.
Well, I have my trusty new airhorns to try out if a bear comes into my camp this week or I see one while out hiking the trail.

I really need to pick up a handgun later, I can not see lugging my AR15 with me :D
As powerful and long range as they are, I would hate to use it in close proximity near others.

Now if I was back country camping no big deal, but this week I will be up at a campground withing Mt. Rainier.
Have people meeting me there, and this is the best way to find me.

Come Labor Day weekend though, I will be back country camping where it would make more sense to bring the AR.

[DrMoab]

Oh it would have an effect, as long as your finger was on the trigger. :D

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[GunnIt]

Probably no worse than a bee sting to them.
Well, I have my trusty new airhorns to try out if a bear comes into my camp this week or I see one while out hiking the trail.

I really need to pick up a handgun later, I can not see lugging my AR15 with me :D
As powerful and long range as they are, I would hate to use it in close proximity near others.

Now if I was back country camping no big deal, but this week I will be up at a campground withing Mt. Rainier.
Have people meeting me there, and this is the best way to find me.

Come Labor Day weekend though, I will be back country camping where it would make more sense to bring the AR.

I have been closer to more bears than likely anyone else that you might talk to. See photo proof here:http://www.terrygunn.com/Bears-of-Alaska I own an AR 15 and it is a good defensive weapon, however, an AR 15 is NO defense against any bear. My first summer in Alaska (1985) I carried a 357, traded it in after I encountered my first bear for a 9 shot Mossberg 500 shotgun which I loaded with 3-in magnum slugs and sabots. I have been in remote Alaska every summer in close proximity to bears for 25 years. That said, my primary camp gun is a 40 cal handgun. When in bear country in the lower 48 I still bring the Mossberg...On the streams in AK., I just throw rocks at them when they get too close.

Here are some photos that I took with a 105MM lens, the bear is 15-ft away splashing me with water.
http://www.terrygunn.com/Bears-of-Alaska/Bears/1000429/66126968_oKTVr-L.jpghttp://www.terrygunn.com/Bears-of-Alaska/Bears/1000225/53552934_5LSZA-L.jpghttp://www.terrygunn.com/Bears-of-Alaska/Bears/1000327/66127151_TB57k-L.jpghttp://www.terrygunn.com/Bears-of-Alaska/Bears/1000530/66126882_YfSkm-L.jpg

[FJ_Viz]

I agree that you as the victim may not have much of a chance to use your gun, spray or (per the video) taser, but what about going to the aid of another under attack. It would feel pretty helpless to watch one of your mates get mauled and not have any means to help.

I MTB in a area where a Mt lion ate one guy and attacked another lady the next day (8-10 years ago). Her friend(another lady) had a tug-a-war with the lion and kept the lion from dragging her friend away, saved the lady's life. I always wondered if I was on scene what could I have done to fight off the lion; wearing lycra and having a 25 lbs bike. Apparent other biker threw rocks.

Point is, if her friend or one of the other bikers had a gun, spray or taser (I like the video), it may have been a different situation.

Calif gun and weapon laws suck. It would be nice to carry in the "woods".

In short, it is probably a good idea to have a means to defend yourself and/or others when in predator county.

PS: do they make bear cage tents, like the shark cages.
PSS: Who would win in a fight: Grizzly bear or shark or Chuck Norris?
PSSS: What about zombie bears? Do you need silver bullets?

[Mr. Leary]

PS: do they make bear cage tents, like the shark cages?

They are called houses, and are usually located uncomfortably close to each other.

PSS: Who would win in a fight: Grizzly bear or shark or Chuck Norris?

Need we even ask the question? We should be asking only whether it will take more then one roundhouse kick to finish them both.

PSSS: What about zombie bears? Do you need silver bullets?

No. They require Chuck Norris or a silver salmon fish-slap!

Carry on...

[ruger1]

Traveling smart in bear country makes the most sense. My wife & I have been from Montana to Maine camping and hiking in grizzly and black bear territory. I always have had a hand gun (.44) & or rifle (7mm) on me or in the truck (@ home I use them for woodchucks, deer & coyotes) and when we travel I still keep @ least one with us, not for the four legged animals but for the two legged kind that might wonder around looking for trouble.
We have had several black bears over the years cause issues but never a major life or death threat. And while fly fishing the Lamar Valley in Yellowstone I have never given it a thought to carry a gun. (though the day after we saw a huge grizzly about 50 yards from where I was fishing)
I guess right now I'd be more worried about the two convicted murders that are on the loose in Yellowstone than any 4 legged beast.

[Mike S]

A bear attack is not always about food. Some certainly are, but there are apparently other triggers. With grizzlies, it seems that it's often a hair trigger.

My cousin is a geologist and wilderness backpacker. When he left to work on the North Slope of Alaska, he asked my advice on armament for traveling in bear country. He left with a unplugged Remington 870 riot gun, double-aught buckshot, and a box of slugs.

My friends that guide on Alaskan rivers know bears well, and have advised me that caution and discretion avoid problems 99% of the time. The other one percent is the problem. Grizzlies will sometimes attack without apparent provocation, and it is much better to be well-armed and prepared to defend yourself. I do not like the idea of standing in front of 1000 pounds of charging, pissed off grizzly with only a bottle of pepper spray between me and my maker.

[baca327]

I do not like the idea of standing in front of 1000 pounds of charging, pissed off grizzly with only a bottle of pepper spray between me and my maker.

Enough said:costumed-smiley-007

[Caduceus]

Nope. Never taken a gun camping, likely never will. Seen cougars, bobcats, bears, people. The last are the ones that bother me.

I don't look like a deer, otter, raccoon or squirrel. Therefore, I am not prey. I may be a threat... but that's my fault for being stupid.

Besides, I too would rather go out with a bang than sit on a ventilator somewhere with a raging infection when I'm 90.

[xtatik]

I do not like the idea of standing in front of 1000 pounds of charging, pissed off grizzly with only a bottle of pepper spray between me and my maker.

No question it would be unnerving, but you have to realize a bears olfactory nervous system is IMMENSE and is both its greatest asset and its greatest weakness. A gun will stop a bear by disabling it if the shooter is effective in shot placement. But, the gun will never be as capable as spray at inflicting pain on a bear.
In a tight quartered, quick response situation...I'd choose the spray. Earlier in the thread someone questioned what would happen if spray were discharged in a tent when attacked. Bottom line....you'd be damned uncomfortable for a couple of hours, but nowhere near in as bad shape as the bear. This stuff just tears at their nostrils and sends a shot up their olfactory nerve in a way that no other mammal is affected.....it is immediate, and hits them very hard. Unlike other mammals (ourselves included), their olfactory nerve is an extension of their brain. It's effect on humans or other mammals cannot be compared with its effect on a bear.

[ignorant]

I do not like the idea of standing in front of 1000 pounds of charging, pissed off grizzly with only a bottle of pepper spray between me and my maker.

I understand the sentiment 100%, but I don't have the time to practice with firearms enough to be sure of my skill. I'm a corporate choad 60-70 hours a week and the rest of the time is spent with my wife and child.

I like carrying both, I'm a belt and suspenders engineering nerd kind of guy.

Statements from this paper.. http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/grizzly/bear%20spray.pdf

Have me thinking though.. Particularly...

" Canadian bear biologist Dr. Stephen Herrero
reached similar conclusions based on his own research -- a person’s chance of incurring serious injury from
a charging grizzly doubles when bullets are fired versus when bear spray is used."

Now maybe If I lived in Alaska and had more time to hunt and shoot, I'd be more confident in my gun skills.

[Mike S]

I understand the sentiment and reasoning regarding a temporary disablement of a bear with pepper spray VS killing the animal.

My point is simple, however, If the pepper spray does not deter the bear you WILL be lunch. I have a close friend that survived a bear attack on the Alaska Peninsula while moose hunting. The bear (a very large male brown bear - over 48" high at the shoulder while lying down flat on the ground) was in tag alders and bolted at their approach, circles until it hit their back trail, and came straight up the back trail at full speed. It died about 12 feet from where they were standing.

The provocation was, apparently, that they were in the same neighborhood as the bear. They were not stalking the bear, and had no idea that it was there until it bolted, then turned and charged.

My friend is a very seasoned outdoorsman, and he was with a experienced, professional guide. This kind of thing is not common, but it happens every year in Alaska, and people are killed in Canada and the rocky Mountain states often enough to provoke these discussions.

I am proficient with firearms and usually have some form of protection with me when traveling. The only times I have drawn a weapon is in encounters with two legged predators. I much prefer to never have an experience like my friend's, nor do I go looking for trouble. I don't even kill rattlesnakes unless one of my dogs is in danger of being bitten. Still, I stand by my statement that, in the most extreme instance, a firearm can save your (or another's) life.

[coreys88burban]

my bear protection is a loaded 454 casull revolver with a mix of 260 grain jacked hallow points and 300 grain flat nose. hits 200 yards if needed and will take down a charging rhino.

[Tucson T4R]

my bear protection is a loaded 454 casull revolver with a mix of 260 grain jacked hallow points and 300 grain flat nose. hits 200 yards if needed and will take down a charging rhino.

I use 454 casull as light loads. :elkgrin:

S&W .460 XVR 8"

http://bgarland.smugmug.com/photos/748245395_vCzmn-L.jpg

Compared to my 6" .357

http://bgarland.smugmug.com/photos/748245379_m2onE-L.jpg


Entirely in jest. I just couldn't resist. :sombrero:

[LACamper]

I haven't camped in brown bear country since I was a kid. We always brought a .30 rifle (enfield usually- 10 rounds of .303 is reassuring).

In the south bears are scarce. People are certainly an issue. We had a problem with some escaped juvie's in MS once. I was glad we had a few guns in the group that night. I usually carry a 1911.

But the bigger problem is packs of feral dogs. That's probably the biggest threat we face in the woods. They're hungry and they aren't afraid of people. Mace is not going to stop all of them.

[coreys88burban]

I use 454 casull as light loads. :elkgrin:

S&W .460 XVR 8"

http://bgarland.smugmug.com/photos/748245395_vCzmn-L.jpg

Compared to my 6" .357

http://bgarland.smugmug.com/photos/748245379_m2onE-L.jpg


Entirely in jest. I just couldn't resist. :sombrero:

those are sexy. i shot a S&W 500. at the range, definatly going to have one soon. kicks less than my 454. sweet gun for sure.

[expedition4x4]

your never gonna outrun a bear, much less at night... and would be unlikely to get off a good shot in the dark... especially if you are half asleep and have to worry about hitting folks in the camp site next to you.
You don't have to outrun the bear, you just have to outrun everyone else running :Wow1:

[Tucson T4R]

those are sexy. i shot a S&W 500. at the range, definatly going to have one soon. kicks less than my 454. sweet gun for sure.

I have shot both but I like the .460 over the .500. The .460 has a higher velocity and less kick. Especially with the 8" compensated barrel. I was practicing at the range and fired off about 30 rounds with no ill effects.


Pretty impressive at night too. :Wow1: Shows you why you don't want meat anywhere near the cylinder gap if you want to keep it. :sombrero: It's a 60,000 PSI plasma cutter in your hand.

http://bgarland.smugmug.com/Camping-Trips/2010-Pig-Camp-Redfield-Canyon/201002051857/784674192_W9e5x-L.jpg

[LACamper]

How's your night vision after that?

You might want to try a different brand of ammo (or different powder if you reload).

[Tucson T4R]

How's your night vision after that?

You might want to try a different brand of ammo (or different powder if you reload).

It looks a little scary but that is the standard Corbon 200gr ammo that was manufactured in partnership with S&W for this gun.

Just the realities of a 2300 fps hand howitzer. :elkgrin:

[Wyowanderer]

It looks a little scary but that is the standard Corbon 200gr ammo that was manufactured in partnership with S&W for this gun.

Just the realities of a 2300 fps hand howitzer. :elkgrin:

Or any other revolver, for that matter. They all leak flamefrom the cylinder gap. Some more than others.

[Tucson T4R]

Or any other revolver, for that matter. They all leak flame from the cylinder gap. Some more than others.

Very true. The first thing I tell someone I am teaching how to shoot a wheel gun is to keep your hands and fingers back on the grip and away from the cylinder.

Here's another shot of a .44 mag being fired. There is probably more fire coming out of the cylinder gap than seen here. I think the photo just missed it.

http://bgarland.smugmug.com/Camping-Trips/2010-Pig-Camp-Redfield-Canyon/201002051858/784674263_SwD9u-L.jpg

[Wyowanderer]

Next time you're at the range, take a newspaper and a plastic bag. drape the newspaper around the revolver and take a shot.
The bag is for picking up the multitude of pieces.....
And practice fire safety- have some water available.

[bcrez]

If you deploy bear spray in a tent you are going to be just as disabled as the bear and unable to escape as it tears apart everything it touches while trying to get out. Having to escape the clutches of a blind hysterical bear while I myself am choking on bear mace sounds like a really bad idea.


It will make me double check my bear spray...

Not sure a firearm is gonna help nearly as much as bear spray when you are in a tent...

[coreys88burban]

I have shot both but I like the .460 over the .500. The .460 has a higher velocity and less kick. Especially with the 8" compensated barrel. I was practicing at the range and fired off about 30 rounds with no ill effects.


Pretty impressive at night too. :Wow1: Shows you why you don't want meat anywhere near the cylinder gap if you want to keep it. :sombrero: It's a 60,000 PSI plasma cutter in your hand.

http://bgarland.smugmug.com/Camping-Trips/2010-Pig-Camp-Redfield-Canyon/201002051857/784674192_W9e5x-L.jpg

i heard the 460 would kicks really hard. i guess ill have to try it out!:) the 454 flames up like that too i like watch someone else shoot at night. it goes out the sides like 2 feet; looks cool.

[Rofocowboy]

Speaking of tasers, I wonder what that would do to a bear. Probably just piss it off even more.

http://www.itaser.com/img/accessories/taser_c2_icon.png

http://www.itaser.com/


I haven't had a chance to read the whole thread, and being a veteran on other forums, I know how annoying it is to have a newbie answer something that's already been answered, along with resurrecting a month's old thread, but I figured I had to answer this question before I forgot. I apologize in advance. :)

Anyway....Taser International (which btw is the ONLY manufacturer of Tasers, what with it being a trade-marked name and all, the rest are called "stun guns" or EBIDs aka Electronic Body Immobilization Devices) actually makes a "Wildlife Management" model that is meant specifically for large animals. I've seen one drop an adult bull cow at full charge, so I'm sure they'd be just as effective against a bear.

HERE (http://www.taser.com/products/wildlife/wildlife-taser) is their site.


Also, someone referred to using bear spray in a tent to be pointless because you'd be just as incapacitated as the bear. IMHO, it would still be effective, for one main reason, you'd know what's going on. The bear would think, "OMGWTF my face is on fire, what's happening to me?!" You, on the other hand, would know what's causing it, and while you'd be in just as much pain, wouldn't have the whole confusion factor. The bear would run away from this new source of excruciating pain, while you'd just fumble around for the closest water bottle.

[alexfm]

As I mentioned in the other thread,

A "campground" bear is completely different than the bear you might encounter in the back country.

A campground bear has an objective. And it is a simple one. Find and retrieve food. By any means necessary. They know that campers carry food, so they look for it, and take it by force if need be.

Back-country bears really want nothing to do with you. Just be sure you dont startle them, as they will respond in a matter you probably wont approve of. :Wow1:

Knowing this, VERY few hand guns will put a bear down. I carry a .40 semi-auto any time we are out in the woods. But I know my chances of actually surviving a bear attack, gun or not, are quite slim.

In order to put one down with a hand gun, you'd have to wait for the bear to show you a soft spot, to allow a clear shot at vitals. Good luck with that.:coffee: Id also recommend nothing short of a .45

Last year, I worked at a scout camp up in Cloudcroft NM. One night, talking to the ranger about a bear sighting in one of the more remote campsites, i was telling him about something I saw, and he started telling me about the last big bear they had, which was about 6 years before. He said it was a good size bear (brown or black, I dont remember) that started roaming around about the middle of the first week (staff week). The bear would just walk over to the dumpster by the dining hall, try and get some food, and the saunter over to a small clearing and lounge in the sun, in full view of everyone. IT didnt really phase anyone at that point, as the whole staff was told not to bother it, and they were all older (16+). When the first week of campers started showing up, the bear started going into campsites, and broke into multiple tents, and I think a vehicle or two. Finally, after about two weeks of the bear doing whatever it wanted, the Ranger calls the game warden, and the warden brings in a specially designed trailer, like the kind the dog catcher has, to catch the bear and release it somewhere, as no one wanted to kill it. Of course, the bear was too smart for that, and would simply grab whatever food was in the trailer and escape. By this point, everyone was kinda nervous, as the bear was being seen 4 or 5 times a day. I dont remember exactly what the ranger told me, but something happened, and they called in the local police, game warden, everyone, and they had the bear cornered on the main road through camp, and it was pissed. It was roaring at the cops, but none of them would shoot it, as they said their 9mm handguns, wouldn't do the deed. The ranger replies, "Well then yuo all wait here, and I'll go get my .357. I can pop all 6 shots in a hole the size of a baseball and blow its back out." So he goes to get his pistol, and on the way back, hears a couple shots. Apparently one of the cops, or a sheriff's deputy was carrying his own .45, and put the bear down when it moved in on one of the other men. Long story short, he killed the bear, and as a token of gratitude, he got to keep the hide. Which seems like a heck of a deal, considering it was valued at $2400. :Wow1:

Long story short, this big (Maybe 700lbs? I dont really remember what the Ranger told me, it was almost a year ago that I heard this story) bear got taken down with a couple shots from a .45, so you can take down a bear with a pistol. Although, I'd personally rather take a good, 12ga. pump gun along, you can never have too much firepower. :sombrero:

[pskhaat]

Actually, the way our shoulders and necks are shaped, it makes it almost impossible for a mountain lion to achieve a quick kill on a human, allowing the possability of fighting it off, which happens in most of the cases. You will be injured, for sure, but likely not killed during the attack.

I'm not sold on that one. Two friends of mine before I was 18 were killed by these cats.

Pic of the one who killed my friend Scott L, yet was estimated to be a small cat. http://www.beastinthegarden.com/Photo%20Scott's%20Killer.htm



Then, on January 16, 1991, the body of 18-year-old Scott Lancaster, guarded by a mountain lion, was found behind Clear Creek High School in the Rocky Mountain foothills west of Denver. He had gone out for his daily run two days earlier and was killed in the middle of the afternoon, in view of homes and an interstate highway. “This was the first fatal mountain lion attack in all of North America in more than 100 years,” says Baron.
We can agree it is rare, though.

[pskhaat]

Long story short, this big (Maybe 700lbs? I dont really remember what the Ranger told me, it was almost a year ago that I heard this story) bear got taken down with a couple shots from a .45, so you can take down a bear with a pistol. Although, I'd personally rather take a good, 12ga. pump gun along, you can never have too much firepower.

I'd agree a good pistol shot will do the work for you, but I still wouldn't trust a shotgun at such a distance to do anything substantial. Close range, sure.

[Optimistic Paranoid]

I'd agree a good pistol shot will do the work for you, but I still wouldn't trust a shotgun at such a distance to do anything substantial. Close range, sure.

Hi Scott,

I've read through the entire thread, and it's not clear to me what you are refering to when you write "at such a distance". How far away were you planning on shooting?

Let's note that both the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service in Alaska and the Canadian Department of Renewable Resources both consider a 12 gauge, 3 inch magnum shotgun with one inch rifled slugs; or a 30-06 with 200 grain bullets, to be the MINIMUM power level for bear defense. Professional Hunting guides, who actually have to drop a charging, wounded bear when the client they are guiding only wounds the bear he is hunting, all use much more powerful calibers than a mere 30-06.

ALLof these make any handgun look like a cap gun by comparison. Don't take my word for it. Get some ammo charts and check the numbers yourself.

There are a couple of maxims floating around:

"No intelligent person will take a handgun to a gun fight with any great degree of enthusiasm."

and

"In combat, a pistol's only purpose is to fight your way back to your rifle, which you shouldn't have put down in the first place."

The second quote is from Clint Smith, who is both a former Vietnam Combat Vet and former chief instructor for Cooper at Gunsite.

As for Bear Spray, I really don't know if it's better than a gun, as good as a gun, or worse than a gun. I do note that it seems like they are suddenly pushing it like crazy. Ever since the law was passed allowing the carrying of firearms in National Parks. A suspicious person might think that they've been ORDERED to sing it's praises so as to discourage people from actually exercising their right to carry in the Parks.

I watched a three part National Geographic special recently on PBS dealing with Brown, Black, and Polar Bears in Alaska. The professional wildlife biologist/expert was seen with a twelve gauge slung over his shoulder in several of the scenes.

I also noted that their backpacking tent had an anti-bear electric fence around it in several scenes. I've heard good things about those, and apparently they work quite well.

As always, just my never-particularly-humble opinion.

Regards
John