Family Adventure Rig - Planning Stages

[rcintx]

Hello all...

Never thought I would be perusing the Family section of a board like this, when I could be looking at build-threads and trip reports, but it is full of great advice. Thanks to all of you.

I had my first kid 7 weeks ago. Immediately, I realized that I wouldn't be having many adventures of my own anymore, but they would include my wife and son. I want to teach him to travel, see the world, learn about other cultures. Basically, I want to instill an adventurous and curious spirit into him.

So... On to the question. In the next few years I want to start taking him on trips ranging from State and National parks, to backcountry areas. Getting a little more challenging as he gets older. What rig would serve this plan the best?

I like the idea of having a base camp, and taking day trips to see everything. Below are the options I am considering, any other ideas/suggestions? I want to start saving now and make this purchase in a year or so.

Options:

Truck, Trailer (PopUp/Scamp/Adventure Trailer, etc.)
Truck, Popup truck camper, along the lines of FWC, etc.
Van Conversion (Sportsmobile :drool:)
SUV/Truck, Tent setup.

What do you guys think? What works for you? What doesn't?

Thanks in advance for the advice.

[Hill, Bill E.]

Having a basecamp type setup works great for 95% of my adventures, especially family adventures.

I have an M416 with a RTT, I set it up, and the tow rig (usually my XJ for the family) is free for driving around.

Small works best for us, as we love to get to the remote spots, which usually involves rough trails and/or logging roads.

In the past, I have used a motorhome, and towed my CJ behind. Same concept, the RV was 'basecamp' and the CJ was free for checking out other lakes, trails, etc.


If you're into hiking and biking more, an RV, FWC or Sprtsmobile may be the ticket.

A lot will depend on how much 'comfort' you want to bring with (or have to, for the little ones sake)

The more gear, the bigger the rig or trailer to carry it all.

And where you go. Some areas are easily accessible by foot or bike, and others require driving to see the sights.

Having an RV as the only mode of transportation, would require packing it up to go sightseeing in those situations.

Some people don't mind this, some do.

Which is why the trailer works so well for my family. I can take John out looking for wildlife, or to the lake down the road to fish, and my wife can enjoy some solitude at the basecamp while we're gone.

[wanderer-rrorc]

we tried the sportsmobile (sorta..didnt have the pop-top)..with our 6yr old and 5mo old twins...not nuff room to be comfy (sardines)..

so we got a doublecab tundra and a slide in camper pop-top (skamper but like the FWC)..

LOVE IT...

plenty of room...wifes comfy...im comfy...kids are kids (read sleep anywhere)...so its MUCH better for us currently...

but I can see the merits of a trailer too...just gotta try one and see what works..

[Rick B]

Well, I've only done the SUV thing, but still wanted to post up...

1st by using the Pathfinder to find cool camping spots and setting up our tent/table/chairs/fire ring (is that a base camp?). (Started hitting Grand Canyon, Bryce Canyon, Capital Reef, Zion NP...w/our 1 year old boy)

2nd, lightly modified the Pathy and started pulling a pop-up trailer. This has made me realize how nice a solid roof, awning, indoor plumbing/sink, heater, sleeping off the ground, refrigerator...can be!!! (This was when we had 2 boys, ages 4 and 6 - now they are 5 and 7)

I actually still love tent camping (and experimented with "car camping" twice recenlty with 1 boy at a time). I think most people go with what works for them at that specific time in their lives and then figure out what they like best. We had a blast tent camping with our 1 year old and he LOVES looking at the photos of the crazy places we took him as a baby/toddler!!! But now, the pop-up tent trailer is amazingly cool for what we do and we are currently looking at an off-road worthy, used unit.

Have fun exploring the NP's!!!

[rcintx]

Thanks for the replies!

I grew up tent camping and backpacking (when I was a little older). My main idea with a camper of some sorts (either slide in or tow) is that if it is too hot or cold, I could get the little guy out of the elements. Plus... The wife likes "camping" much more if she has a few comforts (see heat, cooling, mattress, etc).

Once we reach a destination our main activities will be hiking, biking, and kayaking, depending on location.

I am just fine with a tent (or no tent) sleeping under the stars. I have never taken a toddler camping and am unsure what works. I think some sort of a camper is going to be the ticket until he gets older. But which one....

[Sangster]

I've been eyeballing some pop up camper trailers lately. My kids are 5 and 3.

[SilverBullet]

I've been eyeballing some pop up camper trailers lately. My kids are 5 and 3.

I have to admit, I have a Coleman Utah and we love it. We sprung it over for clearance, but it is by no means an off-road trailer.

[eugene]

I did the tent camping when my kids were really little. The difficult part if setup and teardown of the camp. Unpacking and setting up the tent, then the mattress/beds, setting up the grill/stove, etc all takes time. it goes quicker with two people doing the setup, one on each en of the tent poles for example but then the kids crawl away.
So I started looking at the camper route. A popup trailer you have to license which means the trip to the DMV and hassle with that. You also have to check tires and wheel bearings and such. The popup ones you really can't load without popping them up since they are less that 2' tall when popped down, plus popping up means sliding out the beds, etc, still took some time.
So I went the popup truck camper route. Its tall enough when popped down that I can get in and open most of the cabinets and load things in ahead of time so I can check supplies and such a day or two before leaving, kids can even sit on the couch and eat a snack at the table if my wife is at work. Then when were ready to go I drag it out of the garage, lift it up, pull the truck under, lower it, remove the jacks and plug in the cord. Less than an hour loading time, I've done that while my wife was at work even by jusy putting the kids in the car seats. When we get to the cmap site setup involves unlatching the roof latches, grabbing the crank and lifting the roof, about 5 minutes and its tall enough when down that the kids can sit inside while I'm lifting the roof so I can keep them comfined for a bit.
So the quick and easy setup at the camp site was the decision factor for me.
With enough $ I'd probably have went with a FWC but a $600 popup truck camper works for now.

[3jarrells]

We have been camping with a fleetwood Taos. Pretty small pop up with no fridge or ac. I did'nt want to go this route but the wife wanted it. It is nice to have all your stuff in one spot. Just hook it up and go.

On the other hand the male in the tribe is the one who parks, levels, erects and sets up utilities if available. We just recently moved to Phoenix from Virginia. We took our time and camped along the way and were on the road about twelve days. I was just shopping for a bigger tent when I decided to waste some time on expo.

In my opinion these things are for setting up for a weekend by the lake or something. They suck to setup and tear down for one night. Too much work and if it rains and you got to go in the morning you will end up with a wet bunk. On top of that the interiors of these things are made of graham crackers. My wood parts are starting to delaminate. Interiors are very cheaply made. Running gear is nice, I do have grease fittings on my wheel bearings. Maybe thats why you see so many utility trailer made of old pop ups.

[cmgraves]

First, congrats with your new addition to the family!

I am in the same boat as you, want my kids to be culture, expereinces the world, and realize how much is actually out there.

As others have said, its what you requirments are? what your prorities are? and very important, your budget?

One thing to mention is no one really has brought up a truck. You are planning on doing a lot of extra activies, (biking, kayaking, skiing) which take up a lot of space. Don't forget equipment for young ones take up a fair amount of space. Do you have dogs that you are planning on taggin along? This is where a truck bed comes in play and is very useful.

For us, we have a 2006 tundra, with the canopy shell. We build a storage/sleeping platform and throw a futon on top. Our daughter just turn 2, and we have done 4 or 4 major trips like this. Easy, simple, inovative and functional. (also budget comes into play, and allows for more money towards the actually traveling). If you are going for a weekend trip, just throw the matress in the bed with your camping gear, and you are ready to hit the road. I am planning on making a changing room to add to the topper shell for room for standing during bad weather.

Some pluses we like about the tundra. Safety was number one. Then relaiblity, gas milage and room for 2 more munchkins if applicaple.:chef: The power is outstanding, (if you plan on not to pull anything over 4500 pounds), handles great, and has atiquate off road capability for our needs. Also, the bed, love the truck bed. One thing i'm scared about with suv is all the gear in the back will turn into projectory objects if in an accident.

well thats my 2 cents. Works for us, will not work for others. List out items of your wants and needs, daily driver, budget and good luck exploring with your young one! I always love to hear families taking their littles one to play instead of letting them watch tv!

[eugene]

Safety was my main reason for truck vs SUV, separation between cab and bed to keep gear out of the back of our heads. Chevy has the largest extended cab rear seat (with the exception of the dodge mega cab) and the best gas mileage of the half tons and just as reliable as any other brand.

[strider3700]

I've got a 2 year old and a 2 month old. Knowing that #2 was imminent I sold my old 4dr sidekick and bought and old 4dr F350. When I added the canopy I had pretty much as much space as was possible and how I wanted to camp was entirely up to me, not limited by the vehicle.

We're tent camping in a few weeks. First time out with the new one. We'll see how that goes but I'm almost certain we'll end up with a trailer soon. I grew up camping in at first a 13 foot trailer (4 of us) then when I was about 5 we got an 18 foot. That was great until I was 16 and too cool to go camping...

Anyways I'm convinced that an older trailer from the 70's or 80's will handle some mild abuse off road far better then the new ones. I could be totally wrong but I'm hearing far too many horror stories about new trailers rattling to pieces on dirt roads.

[eugene]

An older trailer probably won't do any better than a new one, they were just held together by big staples and a few small screws back then. I've ended up rebuilding the back end of mine and half the interior. The paneling comes loose since its like thin layers, its like gluing the frame to the page of a book, that one page(layer) comes off and thats it, then the staples allow the wood frame joints to flex. I skinned the inside of mine with 1/4" plywood for extra strength.

[rcintx]

I think I will probably start with a small pop-up to tow behind my truck. As we grow (kiddo and fammily), then I will upgrade. By the time I retire (if I ever get to), I hope to be in a SMB or the likes to travel the world with with my wife. Thanks for all the replies.

I also agree with the older ones not holding up any better. I rebuilt an old hard side popup. It was not built any better than the new ones, not to mention how freakin heavy that thing was. The frame was no joke! I was tempted to tear it all down and build a flatbed out of it.

[cmgraves]

This might be something you would be interested in:

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44964&page=11

a fellow memeber has designed, and is trying to get it to production. A tear drop camper, but with a flip pac system on top and has room for 4 when setup.

[rcintx]

My God Man! You have done it! That is perfect! Seriously, I think that is the perfect rig.

[alaskaboy]

Dear Family Man,

The only sensible approach is to have the wife pick the set-up, and then, you fill in the details. If she is happy, then everyone is happy.

Bigger is better for us, but, we have three kids in usually wet and cold conditions.

Good Luck!

[cmgraves]

My God Man! You have done it! That is perfect! Seriously, I think that is the perfect rig.

I thought it was amazing as well. It is something I will consider in the future if my system fails. Hopefully Chad does not run into some major problems with getting it to production, and we all have a chance at owning something so remarkable.

[rcintx]

Dear Family Man,

The only sensible approach is to have the wife pick the set-up, and then, you fill in the details. If she is happy, then everyone is happy.

Bigger is better for us, but, we have three kids in usually wet and cold conditions.

Good Luck!

I think you must be the true Family Man. This is sound advice. I think my best plan is to put together some options, and then take them to momma, and let her pick. She has already agreed to some form of a camper in the next few years. I think this is going to be a 3 year process or so.

What age did you guys start taking your kiddo's out on over nighters? I was thinking around the age of 3 would be a good time.

[eugene]

I took my son out at 6 months. Warm summer day/night, tent and a graco pack and play that he slept in. Did the same when my daughter was 6 months old as well, my son was just under 2 years old then, got cold in the night and he buried his whole body under blankets, seems to be a natural instinct.

[john101477]

I think you must be the true Family Man. This is sound advice. I think my best plan is to put together some options, and then take them to momma, and let her pick. She has already agreed to some form of a camper in the next few years. I think this is going to be a 3 year process or so.

What age did you guys start taking your kiddo's out on over nighters? I was thinking around the age of 3 would be a good time.

your getting a late start at 3 years old. our first over nighter was just before our daughter turned 1 and IMO eugene has it right with the 6 months. We have about 8 trips under our belt this year alone and Sierra loves it. our trial and error has been getting her warm with out her being to hot as she just climbs right out of her sleeping bag lol.a cpl of times she has woke up out of her bag and cried cause she was cold. She is 20 months now and loves everything about the outdoors so far. she is even becoming aware of wildlife and gets a big smile at the sight of deer or elk now.

The tear drop with the flip top tent is tight and could be a great setup for sure. I look forward to following it's process. tent set up can suck if your wanting to move place to place.

OH and on the driving thought - it is ALMOST a requirement from my daughter that we stop ever 2 hours give or take so she can stretch her legs, get changed, and laugh at the dog. As has been said before If momma aint happy.... but here is the real kicker, If the kid is not entertained and happy, momma will not be happy!!! which in turn will make your trip suck!!!

Our dog = best baby sitter in the world :D

[Greggk]

I had a bronco and a big tent for our little trips, but we are currently in the midst of upgrading to a Hummer H3 alpha. From there we are trying to determine if we will keep our current tent or upgrade to a RTT or a pop up camper or an M101 modified with a platform for a RTT.

[john101477]

I had a bronco and a big tent for our little trips, but we are currently in the midst of upgrading to a Hummer H3 alpha. From there we are trying to determine if we will keep our current tent or upgrade to a RTT or a pop up camper or an M101 modified with a platform for a RTT.

I honestly think your making a huge mistake with both the rig and the tent choice for family adventure. neither are practical IMO

[Greggk]

I honestly think your making a huge mistake with both the rig and the tent choice for family adventure. neither are practical IMO


im not understanding your train of thought nor your logic. please explain.

[john101477]

im not understanding your train of thought nor your logic. please explain.

Well first the Hummers are garbage. very un-reliable compared to there old counterparts for which they take their name. A real Alfa H1 was really the only good one produced.

Also the H3 (alfa just means it has a bigger motor) is really not a do every thing rig. it has an estimated $60,000 cost to own 5 year aver. thats huge considering that the MSRP is only $41,000.

I could pick this rig apart all day but lets move on to tent selections
I was under the understanding that you have a family. all an RTT is going to do is look "cool" on top of that H3 for a family setup unless you buy 2 tents and have the kids sleep in one on the ground and you and the wife up in the RTT.

just because something is flashy does not mean it is useful. Do the research on that H3 - Lots of negative info on it. Instead look to LR, Toy, Nissan etc. if you need BIG there is always the Burb or the excursion. both better options that that H3. The excursion (used with the PSD) is an all time fave for power, reliability, and room.

[Greggk]

Well first the Hummers are garbage. very un-reliable compared to there old counterparts for which they take their name. A real Alfa H1 was really the only good one produced.

Also the H3 (alfa just means it has a bigger motor) is really not a do every thing rig. it has an estimated $60,000 cost to own 5 year aver. thats huge considering that the MSRP is only $41,000.

I could pick this rig apart all day but lets move on to tent selections
I was under the understanding that you have a family. all an RTT is going to do is look "cool" on top of that H3 for a family setup unless you buy 2 tents and have the kids sleep in one on the ground and you and the wife up in the RTT.

just because something is flashy does not mean it is useful. Do the research on that H3 - Lots of negative info on it. Instead look to LR, Toy, Nissan etc. if you need BIG there is always the Burb or the excursion. both better options that that H3. The excursion (used with the PSD) is an all time fave for power, reliability, and room.

i respect your input, but alas i have many frineds who have the H3 and do ofroading and such and none of them encountered any issues. of which we are purchasing one from one of our very good friends who is meticulate when it comes to his vehicles. 16,000 miles for $15,000. we are looking for an alternative for our big tent that is well, HUGE. we are looking for something that is a little more our size. we got the tent off of craigslist for $50.00 and was only used twice. we have used it many times and looking for something a little different.

[R_Lefebvre]

I agree. I like the H3 and think it's a decent truck. I've actually been pushing my Dad to get one to replace his 99 Yukon that is falling apart. It's the last real SUV available from an American company, IMO.

To say that it's bad compared to a LR or Nissan, I don't get that at all. If you were a total Toyota snob, I can understand, but to say that it's worse than a LR or Nissan... makes no sense to me.

[R_Lefebvre]

What age did you guys start taking your kiddo's out on over nighters? I was thinking around the age of 3 would be a good time.

Elise was 6 months when we took her. Just one night, that was enough sleep deprivation for us. ;)

[john101477]

why i believe the H3 is garbage for a family adventure rig, yes it can 4wd with the best of them but...

Reliability
The 2010 Hummer H3 reliability score of 5.0 out of 10 is the Predicted Reliability rating provided by J.D. Power and Associates. This score is based on trending the past three years of historical initial quality and dependability data from J.D. Power's automotive studies, specifically the Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS) and the Initial Quality Study (IQS).

Hummer offers a five-year/100,000-mile transferable powertrain warranty. This is one of the lengthiest warranties in its class.

Other SUVs to Consider
If you just want an SUV that still looks cool, consider the Toyota FJ Cruiser. It offers off-road abilities but also boasts better fuel economy (16/20 mpg) and costs nearly $10,000 less than the Hummer. Another great off-road SUV is the Jeep Wrangler, which performs just as well as the Hummer, saves you another $2,000 off its price, comes with the same rugged styling and has a marginally better fuel economy.

The H3’s primary selling point is– was– its cartoonish appearance. Sporting some muscular, Gubernator-inspired styling, the H3 comes accentuated by poseur-approved chrome grill, fake hood vents, chrome step bars, an exposed spare and massively over-sized fender flares. There’s mucho machismo to be had here. Unfortunately, many of the details are perfect targets for rocks, dirt, boulders and whatever nature offers to thwart even the most timid off-roader. Everywhere it went, the H3 stood out as a poseur in a cheap tux amongst the barebones off-roaders that showed their battle scars with pride.

The H3’s exterior dimensions promise space and convenience nowhere to be found on the inside. The back seat offers the same room as any family sedan; it’s utterly cramped with three adults. The trunk’s even worse. With two huge intrusions on either side, the H3 struggled to hold three suitcases and two duffel bags, a load that would easily fit into any station wagon or large sedan on sale today.

Unique styling cues from the H2’s cabin are nowhere to be found except on the horn. The H3, sadly, is just another GM truck. Bearing a steering wheel and a center stack most Chevrolet owners could operate blindly, the H3 utterly fails to live up to HUMMER’s “Like nothing else” slogan.

Just Sayin....

[R_Lefebvre]

I like the H3 a lot. Few key points:

-Only truck available that can fit 35" tires without even a lift. Just stick 'em on. Comes with 33's.
-4.0:1 low range transfer case, matched only by a Rubicon
-Available locking differentials, front and rear
-Available manual transmission
-Storage problems could be solved with the H3T.

The chrome grill can be fixed with some paint. The step bars, I don't know about them. Could be removed, or kept on for protection. The JK guys I run with like the factory step bars as they offer at least a minimum of protection. Yes, the interior is classic GM "Style Free Zone".

JD Powers quality surveys are only loosely tied to quality. I give them little credence myself. When I worked at Ford, I saw what went into them. Most of the IQS has to do with design choices, not reliability. If a customer doesn't like the seat fabric, that counts.

Complaining about reliability, and then comparing to a Chrysler product is funny.

[john101477]

This still stands as well as the reliability and cost issues. Like I said I think the H3 is a huge costly mistake. As for the H3T? how is that changing anything? Bed space in it is ridiculous.

the H3 stood out as a poseur in a cheap tux amongst the barebones off-roaders that showed their battle scars with pride.

simply put the H3 is a weekend only posser mobile. it will never be more than that.

[Petro]

I'd stay away from the FJ Crusier as a family vehicle. Was looking at them before I got my 4dr Rubicon. I have two kids (ages 4 and 7). The way the back seats of the FJ Cruiser is designed, along with the suicide doors, make it almost impossible for little ones to see out the windows while sitting in the back seat, it's like a cave back there for them. Not ideal when touring the open road and trying to enjoy the scenery.

[R_Lefebvre]

+1.

My kids LOVE my Discovery. I don't think anything else out there has a better greenhouse.

John, most of what you're stating as fact about the H3, seems more like opinion.

[rcintx]

Maybe its just being a first time dad, but I am a little nervous at taking them out at such a young age (6 months). I am sure, I will get over that though. (I don't think their head will fall anymore :)).

I think I will start taking him out slowly and day trips and see how it goes. If all goes well, lets do an overnighter!

Great advice from the dads with more experience. Thanks to everyone!

[rcintx]

For another option... I have a shell on my truck now. What would you guys think about adding an SUV tent to the back, and using that for the family? Wife and kiddo in the shell, me in the tent? Or something similar?

[Greggk]

This still stands as well as the reliability and cost issues. Like I said I think the H3 is a huge costly mistake. As for the H3T? how is that changing anything? Bed space in it is ridiculous.

the H3 stood out as a poseur in a cheap tux amongst the barebones off-roaders that showed their battle scars with pride.

simply put the H3 is a weekend only posser mobile. it will never be more than that.


no matter what you say will change your mind. to me it seems like you are a toyota snob. I known quite a few owners of H3's that have never had any issues with them other then normal wear and tear.. tires, brakes and the like. and as far as the poseur in a cheap tux among barebones off roaders that has to be the gayest thing i have read on here. you are comparing apples to oranges. that is like comparing a discovery to a samurai. 2 totally different classifications of vehicles. one thing you arent remembering is this is going to be a daily driver that will serve as a trail riding vehicle for myself, wife, 3 kids and 2 dogs, and do it in comfort.

and you want to talk about expensive ownership have you priced a range rovers maintenance costs as well as other parts for them. british vehicles arent cheap. my neighbor has the same 4runner as in your avatar, his is a 1987 sr5 v6 auto with 33" goodyear MTR's, and that was more expensive to keep running then my old 82 bronco, and couldnt hang with my bronco in the rocks, mud, or street, let alone my buddies h3 with the inline 5 offroading (btw the h3 was bone stock down to the crappy goodyear tires).

so just remember its all about personal preference, so what you dont like the H3... Great, I am glad... But just remember you dont pay my bills so i dont have to worry about your opinion. thanks for playing anyways. we will send you home with a consolation prize of a :beer:

[Greggk]

For another option... I have a shell on my truck now. What would you guys think about adding an SUV tent to the back, and using that for the family? Wife and kiddo in the shell, me in the tent? Or something similar?

i think that would be a great idea. if you get one of those inverters for the truck you could get one of those small electric space heaters for chilly nights to stay comfortable. then use this for comfortable sleeping

http://www.pickupspecialties.com/Truck_bedz/truck_bedz_truck_bed_air_mattress.htm

[john101477]

no matter what you say will change your mind. to me it seems like you are a toyota snob. I known quite a few owners of H3's that have never had any issues with them other then normal wear and tear.. tires, brakes and the like. and as far as the poseur in a cheap tux among barebones off roaders that has to be the gayest thing i have read on here. you are comparing apples to oranges. that is like comparing a discovery to a samurai. 2 totally different classifications of vehicles. one thing you arent remembering is this is going to be a daily driver that will serve as a trail riding vehicle for myself, wife, 3 kids and 2 dogs, and do it in comfort.

and you want to talk about expensive ownership have you priced a range rovers maintenance costs as well as other parts for them. british vehicles arent cheap. my neighbor has the same 4runner as in your avatar, his is a 1987 sr5 v6 auto with 33" goodyear MTR's, and that was more expensive to keep running then my old 82 bronco, and couldnt hang with my bronco in the rocks, mud, or street, let alone my buddies h3 with the inline 5 offroading (btw the h3 was bone stock down to the crappy goodyear tires).

so just remember its all about personal preference, so what you dont like the H3... Great, I am glad... But just remember you dont pay my bills so i dont have to worry about your opinion. thanks for playing anyways. we will send you home with a consolation prize of a :beer:

and you can actually kiss my rear for that comment. you asked people opinions you got mine along with some real world test articles. So what your gonna use it for a DD that just means the MPG's are horrid but your right I do not pay your bills. If the H3 is what does it for you then why the hell are you asking opinions on it. As for the H3 being a DD or a family adventure rig, Good luck

Oh and by the way any time you want to compare vehicle ability and reliability... bring it on. With out a doubt my 4runner has seen more country for way less money than your H3 ever will. It may not be pretty like your H3 will be, but it is functional and the cost to maintain it is next to nothing.

[john101477]

+1.

My kids LOVE my Discovery. I don't think anything else out there has a better greenhouse.

John, most of what you're stating as fact about the H3, seems more like opinion.

Rob your the last person I want to be arguing with. The info I submitted could be considered opinion. but those opinions were from 3 separate professional testing companies. I should have wrapped them in quotes but didn't.

Petro - I actually agree with you on cave thing. We tested one out 2 weeks ago and decided against it. I am up in the air with 3 rigs myself

[Greggk]

Rob your the last person I want to be arguing with. The info I submitted could be considered opinion. but those opinions were from 3 separate professional testing companies. I should have wrapped them in quotes but didn't.

Petro - I actually agree with you on cave thing. We tested one out 2 weeks ago and decided against it. I am up in the air with 3 rigs myself

actually i was asking for opinions on a rtt vs pop-up tow behind vs a conventional ground tent.

[john101477]

im not understanding your train of thought nor your logic. please explain.

But anyways not to dwell on the rig, to each their own.

As far as sleeping arrangements I am not a fan of the RTT for family use. IMO it is a little to crowded for everyone and I see a lot of people in that boat right here on ExPo. As for the pop up. really take your pick. most are not exactly my cup of tea but a buddy of mine is still using an OLD Coleman after many moons. I also got the chance to step into a Starcraft a few weeks ago and gotta say it was pretty tight with it's raise suspension and leveling system. pretty neat stuff.

[Greggk]

But anyways not to dwell on the rig, to each their own.

As far as sleeping arrangements I am not a fan of the RTT for family use. IMO it is a little to crowded for everyone and I see a lot of people in that boat right here on ExPo. As for the pop up. really take your pick. most are not exactly my cup of tea but a buddy of mine is still using an OLD Coleman after many moons. I also got the chance to step into a Starcraft a few weeks ago and gotta say it was pretty tight with it's raise suspension and leveling system. pretty neat stuff.


it was lifted? did it come that way from the factory? you perked my interest on that one. currently we get by with my big ground tent but i am tired of listening to the kids complain about it getting cold up here in the colorado rockies and the tent has a few very small leaks, that is the reasoning behind looking for an upgrade.

[eugene]

i think that would be a great idea. if you get one of those inverters for the truck you could get one of those small electric space heaters for chilly nights to stay comfortable. then use this for comfortable sleeping

http://www.pickupspecialties.com/Truck_bedz/truck_bedz_truck_bed_air_mattress.htm

I looked into a small electric heater, when you compare the amp draw of one compared to the A/H ratings of a deep cycle battery you'll find they won't make it through the night. I even looked at 12v heaters to get around the invertor loss.

[john101477]

yeah it is a factory thing. I can't seem to find the one I looked at but here is one that is taller than most. Colman brands one with the same look on their site as well
http://www.starcraftrv.com/starcraft_folding_campers/2009/13RT_highlights.html

Jayco and viking both seem to make an off road version to but none of these are like the neat yellow one I checked out as far as height.

[R_Lefebvre]

it was lifted? did it come that way from the factory? you perked my interest on that one. currently we get by with my big ground tent but i am tired of listening to the kids complain about it getting cold up here in the colorado rockies and the tent has a few very small leaks, that is the reasoning behind looking for an upgrade.

Yes, they have lifted versions. Coleman, Fleetwood, Starcraft, Jayco and Palomino all have them. IMO, it's more of an appearance package than anything. Yes, they are lifted, and have clearance for off-road. The frames are also beefed up on some of them. But the interior construction is still the same crappy MDF board, and they'll rattle apart if take seriously offroad.


but those opinions were from 3 separate professional testing companies.

Yeah, and I'm telling you that you can't take them at face value. JDP is more about marketing than it is about engineering.

In 2004, Hummer H@ had the lowest quality ratings of all. Maybe that is where most of your perception is coming from.

Fact is, you know why the H2 scored so low? Since it was an over 8500lb vehicle, it was not considered a light truck anymore, and thus, they did no have to print the EPA milage ratings on the window stickers. Customers were shocked when they only got 12mpg.

Gee, you're surprised a 8500lb vehicle, shaped like a brick, with a big gas V8 only gets 12mpg?

Every complaint about the milage counted as a defect, and that jacked the score up.

But that has NOTHING to do with "quality". And the H2 has nothing to do with and H3. Why do you assume an H3 will get poor milage? They're rated at 25mpg highway. Now, I know and you know it'll never actually get that, probably closer to 20, but that puts it right around the same milage as any other midsize truck.

[AxeAngel]

H3Ts with F&R locking diffs are pretty capable. I've seen some run around off pavement, I wasnt blown away but I was suitably impressed. Could you make a Taco/FJ/4runner/Disco, etc just as capable or more so - definitely.

I've seen numerous H2s get stuck in dirt fields, on the beach, etc. If you are getting an h2 for $16k and a RTT for $50 sounds like you are getting the deal of the century.

Personally I wouldnt get an H2 for all the reasons mentioned above, and I have had the opportunity to drive one for the weekend.

-Sam

[RuggedH2]

This is my first post here.

I am a member of several off road and 4x4 sites and a couple other expedition sites... I just found this one. I like it... it is well organized and the information here is comprehensive.

Anyway... I felt I could weigh in with some first hand experience with Hummers... I have owned two (an H2 and an H3) for several years and have wheeled both often.

There is much disinformation out there about Hummer. A lot of this type of talk is spread by those that don't like the brand for whatever reason. Much rumor and mis-information is spread without ever checking facts. Ever heard the one about the H2 sitting on a Tahoe frame? Yeah.. that is not true and never was.

Well so... just to set the record straight... IMO the Hummers are great off road and make fantastic expedition rigs. I have wheeled with many other makes and have watched as my Hummers have not only kept up with the others but (as is the case with most other rigs) they have bettered the other brands on occasion.

They are comfortable and big enough for my family of 5. The operating costs are right in line with other 4x4's.

Here are some pics of my rigs.

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/IMG_2613.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/IMG_1449.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/IMG_1204.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/IMG_0006Large.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/Rugged-B.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/WipeoutHillChris.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/IMG_0092Large.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/IMG_3014.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/StrikewithAandA.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/IMG_0520.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/IMG_0482.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/IMG_0463.jpg

[Greggk]

Yes, they have lifted versions. Coleman, Fleetwood, Starcraft, Jayco and Palomino all have them. IMO, it's more of an appearance package than anything. Yes, they are lifted, and have clearance for off-road. The frames are also beefed up on some of them. But the interior construction is still the same crappy MDF board, and they'll rattle apart if take seriously offroad.



Yeah, and I'm telling you that you can't take them at face value. JDP is more about marketing than it is about engineering.

In 2004, Hummer H@ had the lowest quality ratings of all. Maybe that is where most of your perception is coming from.

Fact is, you know why the H2 scored so low? Since it was an over 8500lb vehicle, it was not considered a light truck anymore, and thus, they did no have to print the EPA milage ratings on the window stickers. Customers were shocked when they only got 12mpg.

Gee, you're surprised a 8500lb vehicle, shaped like a brick, with a big gas V8 only gets 12mpg?

Every complaint about the milage counted as a defect, and that jacked the score up.

But that has NOTHING to do with "quality". And the H2 has nothing to do with and H3. Why do you assume an H3 will get poor milage? They're rated at 25mpg highway. Now, I know and you know it'll never actually get that, probably closer to 20, but that puts it right around the same milage as any other midsize truck.

good points


H3Ts with F&R locking diffs are pretty capable. I've seen some run around off pavement, I wasnt blown away but I was suitably impressed. Could you make a Taco/FJ/4runner/Disco, etc just as capable or more so - definitely.

I've seen numerous H2s get stuck in dirt fields, on the beach, etc. If you are getting an h2 for $16k and a RTT for $50 sounds like you are getting the deal of the century.

Personally I wouldnt get an H2 for all the reasons mentioned above, and I have had the opportunity to drive one for the weekend.

-Sam

regular H3 suv's have the same lockers as well. I am getting a H3 Alpha not a H2. and i have a conventional ground tent that i got for $50, not a RTT


This is my first post here.

I am a member of several off road and 4x4 sites and a couple other expedition sites... I just found this one. I like it... it is well organized and the information here is comprehensive.

Anyway... I felt I could weigh in with some first hand experience with Hummers... I have owned two (an H2 and an H3) for several years and have wheeled both often.

There is much disinformation out there about Hummer. A lot of this type of talk is spread by those that don't like the brand for whatever reason. Much rumor and mis-information is spread without ever checking facts. Ever heard the one about the H2 sitting on a Tahoe frame? Yeah.. that is not true and never was.

Well so... just to set the record straight... IMO the Hummers are great off road and make fantastic expedition rigs. I have wheeled with many other makes and have watched as my Hummers have not only kept up with the others but (as is the case with most other rigs) they have bettered the other brands on occasion.

They are comfortable and big enough for my family of 5. The operating costs are right in line with other 4x4's.

Here are some pics of my rigs.

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/IMG_2613.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/IMG_1449.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/IMG_1204.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/IMG_0006Large.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/Rugged-B.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/WipeoutHillChris.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/IMG_0092Large.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/IMG_3014.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/StrikewithAandA.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/IMG_0520.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/IMG_0482.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/IMG_0463.jpg


those pictures are full of WIN!!!!

[05LR3AZ]

This is my first post here.

There is much disinformation out there about Hummer. A lot of this type of talk is spread by those that don't like the brand for whatever reason. Much rumor and mis-information is spread without ever checking facts. Ever heard the one about the H2 sitting on a Tahoe frame? Yeah.. that is not true and never was.



The chassis of an H2 (I had thought) is a 2500 Suburban that has been modified at the front and rear. It's body length is 9" shorter than a Tahoe and it's wheelbase is 7" longer than the Tahoe. The H3 shares the same platform as the GMC Canyon and Chevry Colorado pickups but has been modified also.

None of that really matters. If you like the rig and it does what you want, why complain, right?

Nice pics also!

[RuggedH2]

Thanks,

You are right. The frames of these Hummers are based on GM platforms shared with other models.

The modifications made are where the differences occur.

The H2 does share the basic frame design (GMT820) with the 3/4 ton Suburban (not the 1/2 ton Tahoe) but has additional cross members welded for structural support. That basic frame design has 3 separate sections welded together in different configurations for different applications. Additional structural supports (cross-members) are also welded to the H2 frame that the other models on these platforms don't have. The mounting points are also changed to allow for better angles (approach, departure, break-over).

Here is a picture of the basic frames of the H3 and the Colorado / Canyon. It is a decent illustration and example of the fact that they share the same platform but... the application changes make the difference. The devil (in understanding) is always in the details... which most haters don't bother with. :ylsmoke:

45776

[RuggedH2]

Few more pics of wheeling buddies.

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/WoodysTavern.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/IMG_1996.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/IMG_0026.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/IMG_2263-1.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/F5Moab138.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/IMG_2635.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/escalator4.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/IMG_1454.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/IMG_2357.jpg

[rcintx]

Thanks a lot! I want a hummer now!

:drool:

[RuggedH2]

Thanks a lot! I want a hummer now!

:drool:

Didn't mean to high-jack your thread man....

You could do a lot worse than the Hummer bro. :cool:

[rcintx]

Didn't mean to high-jack your thread man....

You could do a lot worse than the Hummer bro. :cool:

Seriously. After looking at your pics, I want a hummer now! :Wow1:

No apologies necessary!

[spencyg]

I really love our van platform for adventure travel. Really. Really. Space can be a premium if you don't pack well, but if you think of the vehicle more like an apartment that you "unpack" into, everything works really well. Mind you, this is with just 1 kid. I like my space (inside and out) and would be the first to say that 4 people would be pushing the comfort significantly. I think if/when we add another to the mix, we will be either building a new vehicle based on a F550 Crew Cab, or will be forced to travel with an adventure style trailer with a RTT. The second solution might be more realistic, and it gets the little ones out of the vehicle while sleeping (our daughter is noisy!!). I think what you really need to decide is whether you want to have experiences while living in your vehicle, or around it. Sportsmobile-type rigs, Earthroamer, Fuso, etc are all "live in" rigs, while SUVs and Trucks with RTT's or Bed Caps are more "live around". A hybrid example combining these two styles of travel are the Alaskan style camper (slide-in) and the Flippac. Neither of those solutions are really meant for more than 2 people though unless you get a really big slide in.

So you need to decide how you want to interact with your surroundings and proceed accordingly. Whatever solution you deem adequate will only prove to tie your family together and provide you all with experiences which truly define life.

Good Luck.

[rcintx]

I really love our van platform for adventure travel. Really. Really. Space can be a premium if you don't pack well, but if you think of the vehicle more like an apartment that you "unpack" into, everything works really well. Mind you, this is with just 1 kid. I like my space (inside and out) and would be the first to say that 4 people would be pushing the comfort significantly. I think if/when we add another to the mix, we will be either building a new vehicle based on a F550 Crew Cab, or will be forced to travel with an adventure style trailer with a RTT. The second solution might be more realistic, and it gets the little ones out of the vehicle while sleeping (our daughter is noisy!!). I think what you really need to decide is whether you want to have experiences while living in your vehicle, or around it. Sportsmobile-type rigs, Earthroamer, Fuso, etc are all "live in" rigs, while SUVs and Trucks with RTT's or Bed Caps are more "live around". A hybrid example combining these two styles of travel are the Alaskan style camper (slide-in) and the Flippac. Neither of those solutions are really meant for more than 2 people though unless you get a really big slide in.

So you need to decide how you want to interact with your surroundings and proceed accordingly. Whatever solution you deem adequate will only prove to tie your family together and provide you all with experiences which truly define life.

Good Luck.

This may be the most important post on this topic. I do need to spend some time thinking about where I want to go, and how I want to "live" along the way. "Whatever solution you deem adequate will only prove to tie your family together and provide you all with experiences which truly define life." Awesome quote. This is my main objective. Thanks SpencyG, for reminding me the purpose for all of this.

[Greggk]

Few more pics of wheeling buddies.

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/WoodysTavern.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/IMG_1996.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/IMG_0026.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/IMG_2263-1.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/F5Moab138.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/IMG_2635.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/escalator4.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/IMG_1454.jpg

http://i705.photobucket.com/albums/ww59/RuggedH2/IMG_2357.jpg

http://images.picturesdepot.com/photo/m/mcdonalds_im_loving_it-18771.JPG

[john101477]

I have to be honest i have never driven an H3 but have driven 6-7 H2's. the only one I enjoyed at all was a sporting a Duramax. Before I had driven the diesel, My parents were wanted to get one and after the test drive up one of our steep Hwy's with the same motor as the Tahoe they were replacing. in our opinion the H2 just did not have enough power with the gas motor options. After driving the H2 with the duramax I was tempted to switch to the dark side but never did.
With Hummer trying to move it's remaining inventory to shut down permanently it might be a great time to buy one. on the flip side, like my dodge magnum, parts are going to get very expensive very fast.

Now do not get me wrong visually the H2 and H3T give me wood every time I see them. It is usually after I drive something that I find problems with things.

Also on the pop up tent trailers with lifts. I have to some what agree with who ever said they thought it would be more of a visual thing and not really an off road setup. It "looks" beefy but there has to be a better setup if your looking for a trailer of some type.

[RuggedH2]

John,

You drive an old 4 runner... but the power in the H2 was a deal breaker for you? :D

325 horsepower / 370 ft lbs torque is a little better than the 22RE.

The last H2's came with the 6.2 403 horsepower / 417 ft lbs torque.

[Greggk]

John,

You drive an old 4 runner... but the power in the H2 was a deal breaker for you? :D

325 horsepower / 370 ft lbs torque is a little better than the 22RE.

The last H2's came with the 6.2 403 horsepower / 417 ft lbs torque.

hmmm 1986


22R 72hp at 4800 rpm 174torque 2800 rpm 1981–1990 carb, dual row timing chain ('81-'82)
carb, single row timing chain ('83-'90


22R-E 84hp at 4600 rpm 192torque 3400 rpm 1985–1995 EFI, single row timing chain

[john101477]

John,

You drive an old 4 runner... but the power in the H2 was a deal breaker for you? :D

325 horsepower / 370 ft lbs torque is a little better than the 22RE.

The last H2's came with the 6.2 403 horsepower / 417 ft lbs torque.

I know sounds funny right. but here is the deal. We have a long straight road out of chico called Hwy 32. It climbs very steady into the foothills before turning into a road racers wet dream. While on the test drive with the H2 it would not even hit 70 and the throttle was on the floor. even in my 22re I can hit 70 (with a running start) lol. My parents ended up buying a rare sports car anyways and as I stated before I am still making up my mind lol. What used to meet my needs before is starting to become more of a pain than a positive. 4 doors would be nice, a little more power for the weight ratio.

the last H2's did have the 6.2 the 2007 and before had the 6.0 standard. As a whole IMO the H2 was just to heavy for the motor that GM chose to use. The Duramax setup in the H2 was the answer and the cure. The power to weight ratio is what kills the H2 and from what I have heard about the H3 Alfa those issues should not be a problem although the standard h3 with the inline 5 will always be a bit sluggish (like the toyota 3.0) :)

Honestly if Hummer was not about to disappear forever I would probably look closer at the H3's smaller platform. But seeing as how GM is trying to off load the last ones now and will no longer be supporting the line... Kind of makes me queezy to think about it. I have looked at several vehicles and still having issues matching up to what i want out of a rig.
somewhere between a excursion with a PSD and a tacoma lol

Anyone ever hear that song from Johnny Cash - "One Piece at a Time"? :coffeedrink:

Oh and thats a 84 Hp 22re :D

Hey Rugged. I notice your in Salt Lake. I am gonna be about 2 hours north west of you if your ever bored on a sunday.

[R_Lefebvre]

I never understand the horsepower wars. It's a truck. As long as I can get up to the speed limit on your typical on-ramp, I'm happy. If I can pull up a hill at least as fast as a big rig, I'm happy. It's a truck. If I want to go fast, I take a sports car.

[The Adam Blaster]

I never understand the horsepower wars. It's a truck. As long as I can get up to the speed limit on your typical on-ramp, I'm happy. If I can pull up a hill at least as fast as a big rig, I'm happy. It's a truck. If I want to go fast, I take a sports car.

The lack of power becomes apparent when people try to drive them like cars, or pull a very heavy trailer.
And our society is impatient, we always want to go fast-fast-fast! :D

[R_Lefebvre]

I understand why a guy with an F350 wants 400hp to pull a 15,000lb trailer. I don't know why a guy with a 5000lb truck, maybe towing a 2000lb trailer at most, just NEEDS more than 200hp.

[jim65wagon]

I understand why a guy with an F350 wants 400hp to pull a 15,000lb trailer. I don't know why a guy with a 5000lb truck, maybe towing a 2000lb trailer at most, just NEEDS more than 200hp.

Come out and drive around the DC Beltway, the semi trucks will give you every reason for needing and wanting more than 200 HP in anything you drive!

[R_Lefebvre]

I do avoid cities, so maybe that's why.

[AxeAngel]

I understand why a guy with an F350 wants 400hp to pull a 15,000lb trailer. I don't know why a guy with a 5000lb truck, maybe towing a 2000lb trailer at most, just NEEDS more than 200hp.

I think the guy with the F350 is more concerned about torque Rob. I hear your point and am not arguing against it.

-Sam

[john101477]

I think the guy with the F350 is more concerned about torque Rob. I hear your point and am not arguing against it.

-Sam

it is a lot more involved than that but yeah having the horsepower with out the low end torque is pointless in a rig that hauls anything but your butt and a suitcase.
having hauled a lot of heavy machinery up and down california in both commercial and personal vehicles, I can safely say I would rather have the HP and torque than just the torque. Vehicles such as the Isuzu NPR HD that are beaming with torque but suffer in the top end can be interesting on mountain roads. it could also be down right dangerous on roads such as Hwy 58 going up before tehachapi. I know in my npr on many mountain roads loaded I am lucky to make 30mph where as dad's PSD never even slows down.

Now what I never could figure out is the guys that have to have more than what it came with. stacking chips in a PSD, Duramax, or cummins is crazy but in the same breath a lot of fun. I did not quite get the power hungry gene that my dad has. 2 stack chipped PSD, airplane, jet boat, rousche P51, you get the drift. I am happy (for the most part) with my 84hp toyota, 190hp isuzu, and Dodge Magnum with the small V6. :)

[R_Lefebvre]

it could also be down right dangerous on roads such as Hwy 58 going up before tehachapi.

I know what you mean. But I think this speaks more to road design and poor drivers. We shouldn't be building trucks with a million horsepower just so that we can drive up 15% grades hauling heavy loads and not slow below 65mph.

If you're going up a long steep grade, you should slow down. The road should have reduced speed limit and/or passing lanes, etc. Police should be stationed there, and if people are driving like jackasses because somebody is slow, they should be ticketted.

There's a price to be paid for all this horsepower. You pay it on the sticker price, and you pay it in inefficiency when cruising on level ground the other 99% of the time.

My truck ONLY has 217hp, and now that I have a manual trans and get to pick the shift points, I find I'm driving in the 1300-2000rpm range generally. That's all it takes to not hold up traffic.

[john101477]

I know what you mean. But I think this speaks more to road design and poor drivers. We shouldn't be building trucks with a million horsepower just so that we can drive up 15% grades hauling heavy loads and not slow below 65mph.

If you're going up a long steep grade, you should slow down. The road should have reduced speed limit and/or passing lanes, etc. Police should be stationed there, and if people are driving like jackasses because somebody is slow, they should be ticketted.

There's a price to be paid for all this horsepower. You pay it on the sticker price, and you pay it in inefficiency when cruising on level ground the other 99% of the time.

My truck ONLY has 217hp, and now that I have a manual trans and get to pick the shift points, I find I'm driving in the 1300-2000rpm range generally. That's all it takes to not hold up traffic.

I am not sure I follow on why I should go slower on an up hill pull. Down hill is another story and often has a secondary speed limit for tractor trailers and pickups hauling trailers.
you do pay for the Hp on the sticker price but that is kind of for the buyer to decide if they need it or can afford it. Diesel also used to be a lot cheaper to buy than gas since it takes less to make. Now that every tom dick and harry has a lot bigger truck than they really need, and guys love the look of a lifted chevy even though they do not haul ANYTHING, the cost of diesel has inflated to the costs well above the cost to make ratio.

Your 217hp truck is a modest setup. For the guy hauling a boat, camp trailer, etc thats fine. Some of the equipment I used to haul was very big and heavy and that 217 is a far cry from what I needed to get my job done in a reasonable time. Could 217 suit my needs today? absolutely, 3 years ago? not a chance.

I do wish more people would go your route though Rob. Buy a modest pickup that will do what they need. Those days are gone now. The feel of a heavy Hp motor with a turbo or supercharger has turned everyones head. heck even small cars seem to have to have a turbo or supercharger now. Dodge Neons, Chevy Cavalier, etc. The thirst for power will never be quenched now. It is what kept the hybrids from booming years ago until toyota's prius came along. while not a power house, it will go faster than it's predecessors. The thirst for power is also what keeps the gassers and diesels on the road because until someone develops a more powerful hybrid.... you get my drift.

[Greggk]

I know what you mean. But I think this speaks more to road design and poor drivers. We shouldn't be building trucks with a million horsepower just so that we can drive up 15% grades hauling heavy loads and not slow below 65mph.

If you're going up a long steep grade, you should slow down. The road should have reduced speed limit and/or passing lanes, etc. Police should be stationed there, and if people are driving like jackasses because somebody is slow, they should be ticketted.

There's a price to be paid for all this horsepower. You pay it on the sticker price, and you pay it in inefficiency when cruising on level ground the other 99% of the time.

My truck ONLY has 217hp, and now that I have a manual trans and get to pick the shift points, I find I'm driving in the 1300-2000rpm range generally. That's all it takes to not hold up traffic.

i tend to disagree with the efficiency part. just remember the pounds per horsepower part. the more power you have the less of it you will have to use to move the vehicle. Perfect example. my buddies corvette that i drive on occasion and help him work on. its an 06 vette. 413 stroker, ported heads, intake, and throttle body , custom grind cam, long tube headers, supercharger, nitrous and methanol injection, 6 speed manual and 4.10 gears. over the 970 rwhp mark (not for long, going with new supercharger head capable of 27psi, should send him over the 1000 rwhp mark with ease). perfectly street able, gets 33 mpg at 75mph on the highway, and actually does better at emissions then when it was stock. the reason is a more complete combustion burn. best part is at the altitude in Pueblo Colorado, he ran a 9.82 in the 1/4... cant remember the speed though. unfortunately they will not allow him to run anymore, since he refuses to cage the car

[R_Lefebvre]

Don't confuse combustion efficiency with horsepower and fuel efficiency. Any direct link is tenuous at best. Sure, maybe he's more efficient with the worked motor. But the point is, he could "cut the engine in half", run a 3.0L 4 cylinder with the same work done, get even more MPG since there is half the friction, and not be banned from the dragstrip.

;)

[Greggk]

hahaha very true