The Four Wheel Camper Build

[Overland Hadley]

Want just the facts, and none of the chat? See links at the bottom of this post.



I think a Four Wheel Camper shell is in my future. And while I do not have the camper yet, I have started putting together plans for the build. I thought I would start a build thread now to share what I am planning. If you have any ideas please let me know. And if you are planning a similar project, I hope you can learn from my research.



From Stan@FourWheel:
Our customer base varies quite a bit, but we seem to hear the same comments from most of our customers interested in our camper line, “We are looking for a very light weight truck camper that is well built, simple, and affordable”.


Here are some photos of rigs that have inspired me to go with a Four Wheel Camper.


http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/9070/79154337.jpg (http://img824.imageshack.us/i/79154337.jpg/)

http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/6529/fwcp.jpg
^info on this rig^ (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/12766-A-very-nice-built-FWC-on-Ford-super-duty)

http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/9915/79512008.jpg (http://img822.imageshack.us/i/79512008.jpg/)

http://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/uploads/1284678239/gallery_1728_125_218831.jpg





Interior Measurements (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=680995&postcount=2) - Lighting (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=681002&postcount=3) - Step (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=681014&postcount=4) - Storage and Furniture (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=681068&postcount=7) - Outside Wall Steps (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=683338&postcount=16) - Heater (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=684718&postcount=43) - Heater v2 (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=690833&postcount=92) - Water Tank (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=687127&postcount=75) - Stereo System (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=700348&postcount=114) - Roof Lifter Gas Springs (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=700957&postcount=115) - Teak Floor (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=703102&postcount=125) - Interior Blueprint (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=727817&postcount=146) - Water Pump (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=728930&postcount=160) - Cabinetry (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/47306-The-FWC-Build?p=731227#post731227) - Underside Insulation (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=734000&postcount=177) - Battery Bank, or Lack There Of (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=734057&postcount=179) - Trash Can (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=739667&postcount=181) - Rear Mounted Jerry Can (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=754840&postcount=182) - Water Tanks v2 (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=766645&postcount=183) - Shower (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=766840&postcount=184) - Lighting, Part II (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=770354&postcount=185) - SMEV sink (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=781314&postcount=208) - Lagun Table (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=875152&postcount=213) - Outside Light (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=887942&postcount=247) - Cabover Storage (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/47306-The-FWC-Build?p=892891#post892891) - Froli Sleep Systems (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/47306-The-FWC-Build?p=893081#post893081) - SMEV Hob (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/47306-The-FWC-Build?p=893239#post893239) - Weather Station (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/47306-The-FWC-Build?p=893469#post893469) - Aluminum V. Fiberglass (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/47306-The-FWC-Build?p=894676#post894676) - Storage Containers v2 (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/47306-The-FWC-Build?p=897698#post897698) - FWC V. FlipPac (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/47306-The-FWC-Build?p=899504#post899504) - Bigger Bird (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/47306-The-FWC-Build?p=904519#post904519) - Eagle Interior Blueprint (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/47306-The-FWC-Build?p=904789#post904789) - Cabover Length (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/47306-The-FWC-Build?p=908992#post908992) - Toilet System (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/47306-The-FWC-Build?p=914238#post914238) - Galley Faucet (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/47306-The-Four-Wheel-Camper-Build?p=924208#post924208) - Lift Panel Storage (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/47306-The-Four-Wheel-Camper-Build?p=936492#post936492) - Exterior Trash Storage (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/47306-The-Four-Wheel-Camper-Build?p=936518#post936518) - Flooring v2 (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/47306-The-Four-Wheel-Camper-Build?p=946921#post946921) - Exterior Camper Lights (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/47306-The-Four-Wheel-Camper-Build?p=951752#post951752) - Grey Water Bucket (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/47306-The-Four-Wheel-Camper-Build?p=965929#post965929) - 360 of the FWC shell model interior (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/47306-The-Four-Wheel-Camper-Build?p=995284#post995284) - Water Filter (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/47306-The-Four-Wheel-Camper-Build?p=1002538#post1002538) - Lightweight Load Bars (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/47306-The-Four-Wheel-Camper-Build?p=1011808#post1011808) -

FWC Purchased (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/47306-The-Four-Wheel-Camper-Build?p=1038642#post1038642)

Fuel Economy (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/47306-The-Four-Wheel-Camper-Build?p=1038654#post1038654)

Tacoma (Gen2) Suspension (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/47306-The-Four-Wheel-Camper-Build?p=1039505#post1039505)

Blue Performance cabin bags (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/47306-The-Four-Wheel-Camper-Build?p=1044166#post1044166) - Door Handrail (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/47306-The-Four-Wheel-Camper-Build?p=1072386#post1072386) - 120v Power (Gen2 Tacoma) (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/47306-The-Four-Wheel-Camper-Build?p=1072406#post1072406) - Fantastic Fan (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/47306-The-Four-Wheel-Camper-Build?p=1073573#post1073573) - Interior Dome Light (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/47306-The-Four-Wheel-Camper-Build?p=1077726#post1077726) - Tung Oil (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/47306-The-Four-Wheel-Camper-Build?p=1073060#post1073060) - Rear Bike Rack (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/47306-The-Four-Wheel-Camper-Build?p=1084624#post1084624) - Under Cabinet Motion Sensor LEDs (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/47306-The-Four-Wheel-Camper-Build?p=1100600#post1100600)



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[Overland Hadley]

Here are the interior measurements of the Finch shell. Time to cook up some interior ideas. :chef:


http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/2626/finchmeasurements.jpg

[Overland Hadley]

I will be changing all the interior (and exterior) lighting to LED. Each light will be split between a white light and a red light. I have used the white/red light system on boats, and it is good when working at night. It might not be as useful in a camper, but it is where I would like to start and if I need to I can change some lights back to all white.

I have ordered and installed white and red LEDs from v-leds.com in the cab of the truck to test them out before ordering the full set for the camper. I am very happy with them. 100 lumens is a lot of light. And 5000K is a good working spectrum of light.

Link (http://www.v-leds.com/Exterior-LED/Courtesy-LED/White-LED/HP-LED-5K-WHITE-MULTI-p8800874.html#ReviewsTabAnchor)

[Overland Hadley]

I really like hanging out on the trucks tailgate, it's a comfy place to relax in good weather. So I would like to leave the tailgate on and use it as a back porch. (I know some people have tried this and have ended up removing the tailgate because of it being hard to enter through the short door. I will not know if it will work for me until I have tried it. Possibly I will remove it after grating my back across the door.)

If I am able to leave the tailgate on I will need a step. After a couple emails to helpful members I found this. Lightweight, and thin when folded.

Link

[Northern Explorer]

Looking forward to giving you some ideas.

[Overland Hadley]

Looking forward to giving you some ideas.

Thanks!

[Overland Hadley]

I have thought a lot about storage. I need room to store enough gear for two to three months on the road, two to three weeks away from grocery stores, for one or two people.

I am a backpacker, so I consider canoe camping luxurious for all the stuff one can bring. But when traveling in the truck I do end up with a lot of big camera gear, in addition to the gear needed to travel away from the rig. So space is at a premium.

This is where the shell model is nice, no furniture to take up space!

I wanted to find a storage solution that would create a flat surface even with the 17" wheel wells, providing a sleeping option while stealth camping. I looked into using Pelican cases, but the cost and weight of them did not make sense. Unless I find a better option, I have decided to use Action Packer cases. Three 35 gallon size cases will almost perfectly cover the floor area, and can be stacked at the back end of the camper when camped. Using the small bed cushions I hope to be able to make a nice place to sit across the wheel well/action packers.

I am sure this will be something that will evolve with each trip. But to start with I have a plan for lots of storage, stealth camping, and relaxing inside.

Link

[eugene]

To get more storage why not get a longer model camper that hangs out on the tailgate?
I've been toying with the idea though of having a longer camper then remving the tailgate and drop that portion of the camper floor lower to sit on the bumper to make it lower, that would give a taller door and a step in.

[epaddler]

Overland, I'm glad you began this thread, because after trying a sleeping platform inside a truck cap last summer, I've decided I want to upgrade to a 2005 or so Tacoma access cab and a 4Wheel Eagle in back. I have been curious why people are choosing to go the shell route and build their own interior. As I look at the design of the completed Eagle campers, I think I would have a tough time doing better with the space. From taking several Oregon coast trips with a popup in the back of an old Nissan years ago, I really enjoyed the stove, sink and fridge options, and I don't think I could improve on their placement. You mentioned stealth camping. I assume you are talking about pulling over at rest areas, motel parking lots, etc., with the top remaining down where you can get a couple hours of shuteye where it isn't exactly legal. Can you not do that with the couch-bed setup in the finished Eagle?

[eugene]

I want to do a shell model myself because I want to make the sink/stove area removable. Taking ideas from the chuckbox/camp kitchens then build one that has extendable legs so it can set outside the camper or be latched down inside.

[Overland Hadley]

To get more storage why not get a longer model camper that hangs out on the tailgate?


I like the Finch because I can use the tailgate as a back porch.

Also I want to have the option of using my hitch mounted bike rack, and at some point I would like to get a swing out back bumper. And while I want form to follow function, I do not like the look of a camper hanging off the back.

So it is something I have considered, (I have a list of pros and cons) but I think a camper that is truck bed length is best for me.

[Overland Hadley]

Overland, I'm glad you began this thread, because after trying a sleeping platform inside a truck cap last summer, I've decided I want to upgrade to a 2005 or so Tacoma access cab and a 4Wheel Eagle in back.

Thanks.


I have been curious why people are choosing to go the shell route and build their own interior. As I look at the design of the completed Eagle campers, I think I would have a tough time doing better with the space. From taking several Oregon coast trips with a popup in the back of an old Nissan years ago, I really enjoyed the stove, sink and fridge options, and I don't think I could improve on their placement. You mentioned stealth camping. I assume you are talking about pulling over at rest areas, motel parking lots, etc., with the top remaining down where you can get a couple hours of shuteye where it isn't exactly legal. Can you not do that with the couch-bed setup in the finished Eagle?

I guess it is part personal preference and part the need for storage space. Northern Explorer has talked to me about the lack of storage in his camper, and I feel that a shell will offer better storage for the way I travel.

And I have to say that I was not interested in a FWC until I found out that I could order just a shell. The factory interior just does not do it for me, not totally sure why. I am working on a small lightweight sink/counter top. I do not need a fridge. I like to have a stove that I can use outside, as nothing makes a camper hotter than a pot of boiling pasta. Additionally the shell is lighter weight, and on a small truck it is all about weight.

The roll over couch does look comfy, and I like the way it converts into a bed. Just not sure if it is what I want in my camper.

Cost also plays a big part, the shell model costs $4,300 less than the regular model.

[eugene]

I like the Finch because I can use the tailgate as a back porch.

Also I want to have the option of using my hitch mounted bike rack, and at some point I would like to get a swing out back bumper. And while I want form to follow function, I do not like the look of a camper hanging off the back.

So it is something I have considered, (I have a list of pros and cons) but I think a camper that is truck bed length is best for me.

I'm looking at doing something like that too. I have a 2" square tube my father gave me from his scrap pile so I'm thinking one of the 1&1/4" bike racks could fit inside it using it like a hitch extension. I made and bolted on a small step but thought about getting/making one of those hitch mounted cargo carriers then I could toss all the camp chairs and such there under the tailgate.

[Overland Hadley]

I'm looking at doing something like that too. I have a 2" square tube my father gave me from his scrap pile so I'm thinking one of the 1&1/4" bike racks could fit inside it using it like a hitch extension. I made and bolted on a small step but thought about getting/making one of those hitch mounted cargo carriers then I could toss all the camp chairs and such there under the tailgate.

Here is my Thule hitch mounted bike rack. It might sit far enough out to work with an Eagle on a Gen 2 Tacoma. But I would need to do some measurements.

It has been a few years since I have made a trip with the bikes, but I would like to keep my options open.


http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/2852/tbrk.jpg

[eugene]

I'm talking about something like this Amazon.com: Hidden Hitch 80305 Receiver Extension: Automotive

so when the tailgate is down you put in an ~18" extension then your thule bike rack

[Overland Hadley]

I would like to have steps not only on the rear wall, but also a couple on the sides. (A rig over on Wander the West has steps on the side walls, makes sense to me.) This would make it easier to access a cargo box and also make strapping boats down easier.

This is what I have found, they are mast steps for use on a sailboat, and are made from a composite material. I like the way they lock closed when folded, and they look like they will make a nice handhold or place to hang something from.

The only thing I do not like about them is that you can't rotate your foot from one side to the other while standing on them. But I think it is an okay trade off.

Thoughts, ideas?

www.maststep.com (http://www.maststep.com/)


http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/3180/mssmall.jpg

[Hill, Bill E.]

Thoughts, ideas?



Those are slick! I really like how they close, no chance of 'flopping' open by accident, or from some brush/branches.

[RR1]

Thanks.



I am working on a small lightweight sink/counter top. I do not need a fridge. I like to have a stove that I can use outside...


I have been looking at both the Flip Pac and the FWC, as I recently sold my rig, and going to build up a new adventure truck. Kinda leaning towards the FWC, since I do backcountry skiing. I found a wrecked late model Tacoma. The rear has been smashed, perfect candidate for a flat bed/camper. Flat bed would have tool boxes with either a FWC, or a Flip Pac bolted to the top of the tool boxes.

Thinking of doing a small collapsible table that hinges to the side of the inner camper wall, keep it folded up whole hauling gear. Deployed while in camp mode. I do currently have two 24X48" portable tables that work great for cooking on outside the vehicle. Small enough to fit across the front of the bed of the truck, they take up very little room when stowed. I bought them at ACE.

http://www.highsmith.com/images/full/Cosco-Molded-Folding-Table-HSL_i_H39397.jpg

[Overland Hadley]

The rear has been smashed, perfect candidate for a flat bed/camper. Flat bed would have tool boxes with either a FWC, or a Flip Pac bolted to the top of the tool boxes.


FWC makes flat bed models for the overseas market. Best way to go in my opinion. Talk to Stan at FWC, and be sure to keep us up to date if you build a flat bed FWC!

[ersatzknarf]

That's a very good point !
The photo I saw of a flatbed version (in Oz) had the door on the side, also.


FWC makes flat bed models for the overseas market. Best way to go in my opinion. Talk to Stan at FWC, and be sure to keep us up to date if you build a flat bed FWC!

[RR1]

FWC makes flat bed models for the overseas market. Best way to go in my opinion. Talk to Stan at FWC, and be sure to keep us up to date if you build a flat bed FWC!

Would be nice to get a popup version of this, would be perfect.

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28099

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2446/3613156320_c56200bdc2.jpg

or this would be even better. I might have to build my own.

http://www.4x4storagecomponents.com.au/images/Utes/ute1.JPG

[tnt]

Will you be able to close or remove your tailgate while the camper is attached? In the open position, you can not access the mechanism to raise and lower the spare tire. You can probably make something with a swivel in it to get around this, but should be aware of it before you find out the hard way.

[joelweb]

Just don't go camping where there are bugs... Mosquito's would kill you in that thing.

[RR1]

Just don't go camping where there are bugs... Mosquito's would kill you in that thing.

That is why they make screens.:ylsmoke:

[eugene]

Will you be able to close or remove your tailgate while the camper is attached? In the open position, you can not access the mechanism to raise and lower the spare tire. You can probably make something with a swivel in it to get around this, but should be aware of it before you find out the hard way.

Where is the spare winch crank if the camper blocks it, mine is in the bumper. Two of the three sections of the handle work it when the tailgate it up but if the gate is down you add the third to get the handle out past the tailgate.

[joelweb]

That is why they make screens.:ylsmoke:

Fair enough, but given the mounting placement of the gas struts, it doesn't look easy to mount screens over the big side wing openings. They would most likely have to be on the little sliding windows. I'm sure you could put something up, but that thing wouldn't be as practical as it looks for camping in my country. Head to a dryer place and I'm sure it would be great...

[kcowyo]

Will you be able to close or remove your tailgate while the camper is attached? In the open position, you can not access the mechanism to raise and lower the spare tire. You can probably make something with a swivel in it to get around this, but should be aware of it before you find out the hard way.


Good point. Don't know about the new body-style Tacomas like Overland Hadley's, but I wouldn't be able to access the hole to thread the crank through to drop the spare tire, if I left my tailgate on and in the 'open position'...

I couldn't remove the tailgate without raising the rear of the camper several inches. It's been a long time since I've had my tailgate on, but IIRC, I think I need about a 45* angle to install or remove the tailgate. Not much of an issue I guess if you have the jack stands attached to the camper full-time, but if one doesn't travel with their jackstands attached (like me), this could be a small problem if you have a flat and need your spare tire.

I do like the idea of leaving the tailgate on & down (can't close mine with the camper on) as a platform to carry water and/or gas cans outside of the camper, rather than hanging them off the rear wall or stored up on the roof. I've struggled for years with a solution for carrying an extra fuel can with a FWC. I've taken to storing it inside the camper but I don't really like doing it. That said, I've yet to have an issue or any leaks with the Scepter fuel can stored inside while bouncing around on rough trails in places like Death Valley and the Maze in Utah.


:coffee:
.

[Overland Hadley]

The tailgate can be closed with the Finch and a Gen 2 Tacoma. :ylsmoke:

(The tailgate will be closed while traveling.)

[RR1]

Fair enough, but given the mounting placement of the gas struts, it doesn't look easy to mount screens over the big side wing openings. They would most likely have to be on the little sliding windows. I'm sure you could put something up, but that thing wouldn't be as practical as it looks for camping in my country. Head to a dryer place and I'm sure it would be great...

I like the big doors to get gear in and out, most likely only screen the back opening. Wouldn't sleep with the side doors open anyway.

[Overland Hadley]

The tailgate can be closed with the Finch and a Gen 2 Tacoma. :ylsmoke:

(The tailgate will be closed while traveling.)

I have a photo of the tailgate closed at home, will post it up when I get back. If I remember correctly there is very little clearance, less than 1/4".

[Overland Hadley]

Wouldn't sleep with the side doors open anyway.

That is my favorite part of sleeping in the topper, with the windoors open it feels like sleeping on a tree platform. I will miss that with the FWC.

[kcowyo]

No worries, you'll get a similar effect if you leave the window flaps open. Maybe even better is that the screens keep out skeeters while allowing the cool night breeze to pass over the bed...

http://kcowyo.smugmug.com/Travel/2009/Idaho-July-2009/ID09-304/701849505_JWtgM-O.jpg


Getting excited yet? ;)

.

[Overland Hadley]

No worries, you'll get a similar effect if you leave the window flaps open. Maybe even better is the screens keep out skeeters while allowing the cool night breeze to pass over the bed...

Getting excited yet? ;)

.

Hmmm, what are these thing you talk about? Screens, keeping bugs out?

(Will be spending an extended amount of time in Alaska with the FWC, so I am very excited to have screened windows.

Does the vent screen from Fantastic Fan work on vent models as well as fan models?

[kcowyo]

Alaska?! You're going to need stronger screens, ha!



Does the vent screen from Fantastic Fan work on vent models as well as fan models?


Say what...? :confused:

.

[RR1]

That is my favorite part of sleeping in the topper, with the windoors open it feels like sleeping on a tree platform. I will miss that with the FWC.

I haven't decided what brand of topper I will go with yet. A friend of mine has a Flip Pac, it is like being in a tree house.

[waynemaple]

No worries, you'll get a similar effect if you leave the window flaps open. Maybe even better is that the screens keep out skeeters while allowing the cool night breeze to pass over the bed...

http://kcowyo.smugmug.com/Travel/2009/Idaho-July-2009/ID09-304/701849505_JWtgM-O.jpg


Getting excited yet? ;)

.

Where did you get the poster of the mountains for your window? Is the interior red on all FWC campers or is that custom interior. Looks real nice!

[joelweb]

Here is a question. My old (1982) FWC has screens that will keep out the skeeters, but the mesh is no match for noseeums.

Do the newer ones have a finer mesh or are you still in trouble when you get into tiny bug country?

[Overland Hadley]

Where did you get the poster of the mountains for your window?


:)


Edit:
To answer your question, the older FWC's had the tan uppers, the new ones are grey.

[Overland Hadley]

Here is a question. My old (1982) FWC has screens that will keep out the skeeters, but the mesh is no match for noseeums.

Do the newer ones have a finer mesh or are you still in trouble when you get into tiny bug country?

I would sure think the new FWC's have no see um mesh, most things do these days.

[Overland Hadley]

Alaska?! You're going to need stronger screens, ha!


.

I live in the boundary waters of Minnesota, I know what bugs are.

[Overland Hadley]

Say what...? :confused:

.

I saw on the Fantastic Fan website that you can get an optional screen for the fans.
Does it fit on the vent? Or does the vent come with a screen?

[Northern Explorer]

I saw on the Fantastic Fan website that you can get an optional screen for the fans.
Does it fit on the vent? Or does the vent come with a screen?

My Fantastic Fan came with a screen. It pops out so you can clean it.

[Overland Hadley]

The factory heater that can be ordered with a FWC shell is a unit that includes a furnace, 5 gal propane tank, and a cabinet. The added cost for the furnace is $875.

The factory unit will not work for me for four reasons.
-Cost. Too much money for my budget
-Weight. I can not find where in my notes I have the exact weight, but it was fairly heavy.
-Space. The cabinet will take up space and will make storage in my "open" floor plan harder.
-Battery. I will have only minimal battery in the camper and do not want to depend on batter power for heat.
-Added reason, the factory unit is built in. If I am making a summer trip where the temps will stay for the most part above freezing I want to be able to leave the heater at home. Thus saving weight and space.

Here is my heating solution. The FWC is such a small space and I am used to camping in cold conditions, so I think it should fit my needs. And again this is something that can evolve over time.

Edit: Due to comments on this heater I will be finding another solution.
Coleman BlackCat Catalytic Heater


I do have a hard time with using the Coleman 1lb propane bottles, but they do have some advantages over a 10/20lb tank. My hot water heater and stove use them, so I will have three things that run off the same style canisters. Their small size allows me to store them outside of the camper, in a vented location. And they are available at most small town stores, (although the price they charge is crazy compared to the cost at a big box store) so the amount of propane carried can easily be changed. And now that they can be recycled, and drop boxes for them are starting to be common, I feel less bad for using them.

When using a heater in a closed space a CO alarm is a must.

Battery CO Alarm


Thoughts? Ideas?

[SunMan]

My 2 cents on the Black Cat is that you will probably 86 it in short order.

I say this from experience as my Hawk did not have a heater when I bought it and I thought the Black Cat would be a cheap alternative too, which I guess it is. But a canister will only last about 6 hours and the smell is not very pleasant.

You seem to be putting alot of thought into this build and considering where you live I would HIGHLY recommend considering an Olympian Wave 3 or even a Buddy Heater if you have the extra coin to spare.

Anyway, if you still wanna go with the Black Cat in the interim I've got one I'll sell you on the cheap, only used a handful of times :) it's just collecting dust in the garage! Good luck whichever way you decide.

[john101477]

I also almost bought a Black Cat and all the bad review made me thing they named it wisely according to the old superstition on black cats. my dad has a buddy heater and it is awesome. he even used to heat the living room once when the power went out and it was colder than heck. good luck with the FWC. We have been looking harder and harder at them ourselves but fear the change of ability.

[waynemaple]

I think if you order the furnace package it comes with a CO and smoke detector. It is also a forced air unit with electric fan and thermo, already vented. With the shell model the cabinet is only about 14inches or so high, or my info could be wrong. But with that addition it should not weigh that much, maybe 50 lbs. I've been planning my Finch build for about 4 months and this is very helpful. Any thoughts on removable dinning area? Sink, stove and such that can be placed outside of camper. I've been looking at a VW/ Westfalia setup that is very light.

[mtndog]

I'll chime in, I have a Finch shell with factory heater, in fact, the silver taco pics in the original post is mine from the day I brought it home. After nearly 3 years use, I have never used the heater, but I do run an extension hose from propane tank to my stove outside the camper. If I ordered again, I wouldn't order the heater. I would use a little buddy if needed and carry a small 4lb or 11lb propane tank for my cooking and shower duties. In addition, if you run the heater, you will need to design/install enough battery power to run the fan however long you have it on. YMMV.
By the way, a Finch shell with full propane tank is 525lbs.

[chief5]

One thing about the Mr. Buddy heaters (and any other that have a low oxygen sensor) they will not operate at above 7500 ft. altitude. Took one to Colorado to ELK hunt, camped at 9,000 ft and froze my @$^ off.

The factory furnace is worth it if you plan on using it at high altitude.

Good luck, Lorn

[Overland Hadley]

We have been looking harder and harder at them [FWC] ourselves but fear the change of ability.

What are you referring to?

[Hill, Bill E.]

One thing about the Mr. Buddy heaters (and any other that have a low oxygen sensor) they will not operate at above 7500 ft.
Lorn

Hmmm, didn't think about that.

I was going to second the idea of a Mr. Buddy heater.

I have the 'Big Buddy' and love it, it's actually overkill for my RTT, but does great in a pick up w/topper.

I believe the Big Buddy is suited for 400 SqFt.

I haven't used mine at high elevations yet, so this is good to know.

[washington taco]

I have used a buddy heater @ 4500' no problems. Worked great in the back of my truck shell not sure above that altitude. You can purchase adaptors to hook up a buddie heater to differant sizes of bottles just be sure to purchase a filter that connects between the buddie heater and fuel feed line.

[specjoe]

I think if you order the furnace package it comes with a CO and smoke detector. It is also a forced air unit with electric fan and thermo, already vented. With the shell model the cabinet is only about 14inches or so high, or my info could be wrong. But with that addition it should not weigh that much, maybe 50 lbs. I've been planning my Finch build for about 4 months and this is very helpful. Any thoughts on removable dinning area? Sink, stove and such that can be placed outside of camper. I've been looking at a VW/ Westfalia setup that is very light.

Gosh! Seems like there are quite a few of us looking at ordering a Finch shell soon! I'll probably order mine later this week or early next week and was going to go with just the factory furnace and 60" yakima tracks options (been on the fence on whether to get the screen door) - now I'm questioning the factory furnace!

Thanks Overland Hadley for the thread and mtndog for getting us all geeked about a Finch on our 2005+ Tacos!

-joe D.

[Northern Explorer]

My vote would be yes for the furnace. If you are going to camp in early spring or late fall you will really like it. Especially where you live. I have a Mr. Buddy and have used it with my old Fleetwood Neon. It's a nice heater but my biggest complaint is that it doesn't have a thermostat. You will be either cooking or freezing. Although I have never read a single report (I've searched) about any deaths related to a catalitic heaters, it has always made me a little nervous. I like the fact that my forced air furnace is vented. As mentioned you will have to have enough battery power to run it. The new furnace that FWC is using uses less amps then the one I have.

You could always make up your mind later and put one in yourself.

[Overland Hadley]

Thanks everybody for the replies about the heater. I will figure out a different option for the heater.

[Overland Hadley]

My vote would be yes for the furnace....

As mentioned you will have to have enough battery power to run it.

You could always make up your mind later and put one in yourself.

I want to have very minimal battery in my camper. Just enough to run a laptop.

And a heater that needs battery power is not ideal, as batteries do not do that well in cold weather.

[Overland Hadley]

Any thoughts on removable dinning area? Sink, stove and such that can be placed outside of camper. I've been looking at a VW/ Westfalia setup that is very light.

Working on it.

I have a portable stove as I like to cook outside as much as possible. And I have a very nice sink that I will be installing in the camper, will make a post about it soon.

Do you have a link to the Westy setup?

[Northern Explorer]

Here is an option for you. The only thing I know about them is what's stated on their web site.

Catalitic
Vented
Low amp draw
Thermostate

All looks good but I can't find the price. Platinum Cat heaters (http://www.ventedcatheater.com/2.html)

[Overland Hadley]

I'll chime in, I have a Finch shell with factory heater, in fact, the silver taco pics in the original post is mine from the day I brought it home. After nearly 3 years use, I have never used the heater, but I do run an extension hose from propane tank to my stove outside the camper. If I ordered again, I wouldn't order the heater. I would use a little buddy if needed and carry a small 4lb or 11lb propane tank for my cooking and shower duties. In addition, if you run the heater, you will need to design/install enough battery power to run the fan however long you have it on. YMMV.
By the way, a Finch shell with full propane tank is 525lbs.

mtndog,

Thank you for the information. Good to know the exact weight. And thank you for being one of the first to put a Finch on a Gen 2 Tacoma.

Any first hand advice for those of us wanting to put a Finch on our Tacoma? Do you still have the tailgate on?

[Overland Hadley]

Here is an option for you. The only thing I know about them is what's stated on their web site.

Catalitic
Vented
Low amp draw
Thermostate

All looks good but I can't find the price. Platinum Cat heaters (http://www.ventedcatheater.com/2.html)

Looks promising. Got it bookmarked and will do further research on it. Thanks!

Edit: Emailed them to get pricing information. I will update this post when I get a price quote.

Price is $450 plus shipping.

[mtndog]

mtndog,

Thank you for the information. Good to know the exact weight. And thank you for being one of the first to put a Finch on a Gen 2 Tacoma.

Any first hand advice for those of us wanting to put a Finch on our Tacoma? Do you still have the tailgate on?


I removed the tailgate after my first trip. It is too hard to exit, you really need to step down out of the door to exit comfortably. I fab'd up a dual-swing gate in place of the tailgate....it holds extra gas, water, hi-jack, and tools in an ammo can.
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll101/mtndog_photos/magruder_lolo/smallcammagruder_lolo092Large.jpg
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll101/mtndog_photos/magruder_lolo/smallcammagruder_lolo079Large.jpg

[slooowr6]

I saw on the Fantastic Fan website that you can get an optional screen for the fans.
Does it fit on the vent? Or does the vent come with a screen?

The vent comes with screen.
Looks like you are getting one for sure now. Just need to figure our what to put in. :)

[slooowr6]

I removed the tailgate after my first trip. It is too hard to exit, you really need to step down out of the door to exit comfortably. I fab'd up a dual-swing gate in place of the tailgate....it holds extra gas, water, hi-jack, and tools in an ammo can.
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll101/mtndog_photos/magruder_lolo/smallcammagruder_lolo092Large.jpg
http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll101/mtndog_photos/magruder_lolo/smallcammagruder_lolo079Large.jpg


That's a very nice setup on the rear. Exactly what I wanted. Too bad I've no fab skill at all. :drool:

[SunMan]

That's a very nice setup on the rear. Exactly what I wanted. Too bad I've no fab skill at all. :drool:


x2, seriously sweet.

[Northern Explorer]

x2, seriously sweet.

Yeah, I really like that.

One more reason to remove the tailgate. My tailgate weights in at 47 pounds. That's 47 pounds of extra gear you can take.

[Overland Hadley]

I removed the tailgate after my first trip. It is too hard to exit, you really need to step down out of the door to exit comfortably. I fab'd up a dual-swing gate in place of the tailgate....it holds extra gas, water, hi-jack, and tools in an ammo can.

If I remember correctly the door is about 44" tall. It will be hard to get in and out with the tailgate in place.

The swing out tailgate is a great idea. Do you have some photos showing how it is mounted to the truck?

[Overland Hadley]

One more reason to remove the tailgate. My tailgate weights in at 47 pounds. That's 47 pounds of extra gear you can take.

Hmmmm. Never thought of that. 47 pounds eh? 47 pounds removed from behind the rear axel. Interesting.

I have thought about removing the trailer hitch to save weight. But removing the trailer hitch from a truck sounds like a dumb idea.

[waynemaple]

MTN very functional "Barn doors" on truck/camper.
HADLEY:
I have a portable stove as I like to cook outside as much as possible. And I have a very nice sink that I will be installing in the camper, will make a post about it soon.

Do you have a link to the Westy setup?[/QUOTE]

Searching for a good pic... Maybe just part out one of the westy units... as they are very compact/light. and fit it to a folding table unit. Can you run a coleman propane burner inside the camper? My finch is going to be our Skijoring base in the winter(2 sled dogs and 2 people) so space is limited any thoughts on extra sleeping bed area around couch level?thx

[waynemaple]

http://www.vanwurks.co.uk/e107_plugins/e107shop/product_details.php?product=42&cat=5
http://www.vanwurks.co.uk/e107_plugins/e107shop/product_details.php?product=42&cat=5

[Overland Hadley]

http://www.vanwurks.co.uk/e107_plugins/e107shop/product_details.php?product=42&cat=5
http://www.vanwurks.co.uk/e107_plugins/e107shop/product_details.php?product=42&cat=5

Is something like that available in the US?

[waynemaple]

Not unless we make it! You can order the sink and fabricate the rest or pay the shipping cost. Maybe a question the van folks can answer? I was using the pic for reference mostly. The unit is self contained and light when empty with two handles it is easy to move. Would easily fit under a canopy outside the FWC.

[Overland Hadley]

Not unless we make it! You can order the sink and fabricate the rest or pay the shipping cost. Maybe a question the van folks can answer? I was using the pic for reference mostly. The unit is self contained and light when empty with two handles it is easy to move. Would easily fit under a canopy outside the FWC.

I looked through GoWesty and could not find anything similar.

It looks like a great little unit, granted the cost is quite high for a kitchen setup.

[Overland Hadley]

I could put a wood stove in the camper.

http://expeditionportal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=45383&d=1281725116

A schooner I sailed had one, it worked okay, but we made sure to cook a lot on cold nights.

[kcowyo]

I could put a wood stove in the camper.



Yeah, and you could burn your banjo too if it got really cold... what kind of hillbilly crap is that?

No heat shield underneath, so the counter top will likely deform sooner or later and how much wasted counter space will the emitting heat cause? Plus there is a furnace vent mounted to the cabinet face just under it...? Looks to me like it was one of those cute custom ideas the owner had in the planning stage that should have been left on the drawing board...


:smilies27

.

[Overland Hadley]

Yeah, and you could burn your banjo too if it got really cold... what kind of hillbilly crap is that?

No heat shield underneath, so the counter top will likely deform sooner or later and how much wasted counter space will the emitting heat cause? Plus there is a furnace vent mounted to the cabinet face just under it...? Looks to me like it was one of those cute custom ideas the owner had in the planning stage that should have been left on the drawing board...


:smilies27

.


The banjo kept us warm for many nights....

I have never seen one mounted on a counter top. They are meant to be mounted on the wall.

[Overland Hadley]

Here is the water tank I will be using. It will keep the 100 pounds (11-tank, 89-water) stored low and forward in the truck.

Front Runner Footwell Water Tank (Link (http://www.frontrunneroutfitters.com/Water-Solutions/FRONT-RUNNER-FOOTWELL-WATER-TANK-40L-10-57-Gallons-p105.html))
http://www.frontrunneroutfitters.com/images/products/1922.jpg


Water will be used in the camper via a couple smaller water bladders. I have used the Dromedary water bladders made by MSR for a few years now. From canoe trips, to Death Valley, to the high mountains they have worked very good and have never leaked. MSR Link (http://cascadedesigns.com/msr/water-treatment-and-hydration/expedition-water-treatment-and-hydration/dromedary-bags/product)

I know it will not be as convenient as a big water tank in the camper, but I feel the trade off of added storage space and better weight distribution is best for my camper setup.

[hoser]

Nice tank! I guess you have to tip it midway to get the other half of the water? That would be a good reminder of your consumption rate.

[Overland Hadley]

Nice tank! I guess you have to tip it midway to get the other half of the water? That would be a good reminder of your consumption rate.

An outlet is on both sides, so no tipping. But you would know when you were about half way though your water, you would need to draw from the other side.

[waynemaple]

I could put a wood stove in the camper.

http://expeditionportal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=45383&d=1281725116

A schooner I sailed had one, it worked okay, but we made sure to cook a lot on cold nights.

Was this a FWC camper? I laughed so hard I sprayed coffee all over the laptop at the"banjo burning" comment!! I've had one of those drawing board moments to put a ice shanty stove in my FWC. Then the thought of burning wood over a tank of gas while sleeping crossed my mind. And where to vent it? I also don't play any wooden instruments so I don't have fuel to burn.:REOutCampFire03:

[Stan@FourWheel]

The wood stove installation never got finished in that camper, so what you are looking at is only 1/2 finished.

The customer was wanting the wood burning stove, but we had never done that before, so they were still working in it.

It did have a chimney roof vent, but in the pictures there was no stove pipe up to the roof yet.

I don't know how they were going to finish it off ?

The forced air furnace we use in the campers is pretty darn good, simple, effective . . . as long as you have adequate 12v deep cycle battery power to keep it going.

BUT, I have seen a customer install something like a wood buring stove in a FWC shell model he built out himself.

It was awesome ! I thought it was a wood burning stove for some reason, but it looks like it actually is a marine style propane heater.

(thanks for the link ersatzknarf) ! :)

He got just the shell model. Everything else you see inside he installed once he got the camper home.

I only wish I could build a camper interior like that in my garage.

I can fix most anything, but there is a reason I'm not out on the production line building the FWC's (laughs)

:)

Check out the photos below. A clean & simple design.


.


.

[Terrainist]

Anyone know which wood stove that is in the photos directly above? Thx

[ersatzknarf]

It looks like this one : http://www.dickinsonmarine.com/propheat.html

(but not wood burning...)


Anyone know which wood stove that is in the photos directly above? Thx

[Terrainist]

Thanks a bunch.

[ersatzknarf]

Hope that helped !

[ersatzknarf]

Hi Stan,

You are most welcome.

Actually, I think that the first photo of that other (wood burning) stove might be made by the same company - look at the badge on the front, it looks just the same.

The trick with those sailboat propane heaters is getting the ventilation right (IIRC) and it looks like that fellow did so, but I am no expert on the subject.

I wish to have that kind of interior build skill set, too ! :Wow1:



It was awesome ! I thought it was a wood burning stove for some reason, but it looks like it actually is a marine style propane heater.

(thanks for the link ersatzknarf) ! :)

<snip>

I only wish I could build a camper interior like that in my garage.

<snip>

:)

Check out the photos below. A clean & simple design.

[Overland Hadley]

Check out the photos below. A clean & simple design.


Hi Stan,

Do you remember what model that was built in? (Hawk, Eagle, etc) Trying to figure how much room he had to work with.

Thanks.

[Overland Hadley]

Was this a FWC camper?

Yes, from this thread. FWC custom build? (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47611)

[Overland Hadley]

I found this information on catalytic heaters interesting. Sounds like a nice "warm heat."
(Link to original text (http://www.ventedcatheater.com/6.html))


CATALYTIC COMBUSTION

One of THE PLATINUM CAT's key features is its catalytic combustion process. Catalytic combustion is a unique chemical reaction differing from open- flame combustion in that a catalyst is used instead of high temperature to sustain the combustion process. In the classic flame combustion of most gas furnaces and space heaters, fuel normally burns when combined with oxygen and ignited by a flame at temperatures of at least 1200F. Once started, the process is self- sustaining as long as there is sufficient fuel and oxygen, and as long as the temperature remains above 1200F.

With catalytic combustion, the same reaction occurs except that a CATALYST, usually PLATINUM, is used instead of an open flame to sustain the combustion process, thus the term FLAMELESS COMBUSTION. The process is further unique in that the combustion is only about 750F, which is well below the ignition point of most materials, reducing the likelihood of accidental fires. In addition to being flameless, catalytic combustion produces sun-like radiant heat. Radiant heat, like light, is electromagnetic wave energy. It travels in straight lines at 186,000 miles per second, casts shadows, and is absorbed or reflected by matter. As the sun heats the earth, which in turn heats the atmosphere, THE PLATINUM CAT first warms people and objects which in turn heat the air in the living space. THE PLATINUM CAT floods an area around it with heat energy the same way a light floods an area with light. The intensity of the heat energy varies with the square of the distance it travels as does light, and it travels any distance until it is absorbed or reflected by people or objects in the room.

The design and construction of a catalytic combustion burner is substantially different from that of a classic flame burner. The framework of the burner is constructed much like a flat, open-faced pan. Gas fuel is fed into the back of the pan. The gas is then moved through layers of materials, usually ceramic fibers. These layers act as an insulator as well as a diffuser to provide even gas distribution. The diffused gas then penetrates the top layer (the catalytic pad) which is impregnated with the platinum catalyst. The heat-producing chemical reaction between the fuel, oxygen, and the catalyst takes place right at and slightly into the surface of the catalytic pad. A properly constructed catalytic burner, as used in THE PLATINUM CAT, converts virtually 100% of the fuel used to heat.

[Overland Hadley]

Where are the propane tanks stored on a non-shell FWC? Is it a space that is sealed from the interior of the camper?

Thanks.

[kcowyo]

On older models, on the driver's side wall, in a sealed box, accessible only from the outside. On newer models the box has been relocated to the rear of the camper, on the driver's side - bottom left, also only accessible from the outside.


2008 Hawk -
http://photos.smugmug.com/photos/809367509_WH7at-M.jpg


The doors on the newest models are slightly more narrow and taller as they've gone from using a single #10 propane tank, currently to dual 5# tanks for those who wish to leave appliances in the camper running on propane, while also using propane outside for a grill, lanterns, etc.


2009 Fleet -
http://kcowyo.smugmug.com/Travel/Nevada-California-December/Kofa09-094/736045097_9EvFs-M.jpg

.

[Overland Hadley]

Thanks KC. Just the info and photos I needed.

[kcowyo]

I'm sending you a bill for services rendered.... ;)

.

[Overland Hadley]

Okay, after a couple days of thinking about not much more than propane and camper heaters I have come to a conclusion. I do need a really good heater in the camper, not a cheap little piece, but a solid built in heater.

Thanks for all the advice, here is what I have come up with.

Olympian Wave 3 Heater.
Link (http://www.uscatalytic.com/uscatalytic/ProductMulti.cfm?SubCategoryId=226&ProductId=2319&CornerImage=titleheat%2Ejpg)
(From Amazon)

Paired with the Ragasco fiberglass propane tank. (Featured in the Summer 2009 Overland Journal)
lpgastanks.com Link (http://www.lpgastanks.com/propane-tanks/lc10) (OJ readers get 10% off, as of 2009)

The heater weighs 6 pounds and will be mounted to the back wall of the camper. The tank weighs 7.5 pounds empty and will be stored at the bottom front of the camper, keeping the weight of the fuel low and forward on the rig.


Note: I did have a hard time deciding between the Ragasco tank and an aluminum propane tank. So if anybody has a reason why aluminum would be better please let me know.

[washington taco]

If you plan on winter camping, I think you might find the BTU output to small. MI can be very cold!

[Overland Hadley]

If you plan on winter camping, I think you might find the BTU output to small. MI can be very cold!

I have thought about that. And in the end I am not sure what I will need to heat a popped FWC.

Most of the time I would be camped in conditions not colder than 20*F during the day and around -10*F at night. But I would like the heater to be able to take the chill off on a mild evening, and not have to torch myself in high btu.

So what do you guys think? 1600-3000 btu or 3200-6000 btu?


Here is the spec sheet for the Wave heaters.

http://www.uscatalytic.com/uscatalytic/images/heaterspecs.png

[JCMatthews]

I have been looking at both the Flip Pac and the FWC, as I recently sold my rig, and going to build up a new adventure truck. Kinda leaning towards the FWC, since I do backcountry skiing. I found a wrecked late model Tacoma. The rear has been smashed, perfect candidate for a flat bed/camper. Flat bed would have tool boxes with either a FWC, or a Flip Pac bolted to the top of the tool boxes.

Thinking of doing a small collapsible table that hinges to the side of the inner camper wall, keep it folded up whole hauling gear. Deployed while in camp mode. I do currently have two 24X48" portable tables that work great for cooking on outside the vehicle. Small enough to fit across the front of the bed of the truck, they take up very little room when stowed. I bought them at ACE.

http://www.highsmith.com/images/full/Cosco-Molded-Folding-Table-HSL_i_H39397.jpg

Thule makes a table that attaches to a wall or the outside of a trailer. AT uses it with one of their trailers. It would work for what your talking about.

[Northern Explorer]

The Finch is a small camper but I would say you would be best off with the wave 6. I have a Mr. Heater portable Buddy that is rated 4000 - 9000 btu and a Coleman sportcat rated 1500 btu that you can check out tomorrow for comparison.

[dzzz]

What's the altitude shut off for that heater?

[bajajoaquin]

Thule makes a table that attaches to a wall or the outside of a trailer. AT uses it with one of their trailers. It would work for what your talking about.

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=673369&postcount=2

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=676316&postcount=32

[Overland Hadley]

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=673369&postcount=2

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=676316&postcount=32

Thanks for the links. Another good solution.

[Overland Hadley]

What's the altitude shut off for that heater?

Not sure on the Wave. Anybody know?

I have read that the Mr Buddy is as low as 4500.

[Overland Hadley]

I have thought about that. And in the end I am not sure what I will need to heat a popped FWC.
]

The heater that FWC installs is 12,000 btu. So I think it should be the Wave 6, maybe even the Wave 8?

[deadbeat son]

Just found this thread, and I'm really looking forward to your build Hadley. I'd really like to get a FWC for my Taco, so it's fun to watch you go through the planning process.

Mntdog -- Amazing looking setup!

[Overland Hadley]

Thanks Jason (Northern Explorer) for showing me around your FWC! :beer:

[dbolton]

Regarding heater sizing; I have a '04 Eagle with the OEM heater, which I take winter camping in the eastern sierras. The Eagle is a pretty small space; even on cold nights with the thermostat set to minimum the heater will cycle about every half-hour or so; if anything I'd consider a slightly smaller capacity heater that would have a longer on-off cycle.

-Dan

[Overland Hadley]

Regarding heater sizing; I have a '04 Eagle with the OEM heater, which I take winter camping in the eastern sierras. The Eagle is a pretty small space; even on cold nights with the thermostat set to minimum the heater will cycle about every half-hour or so; if anything I'd consider a slightly smaller capacity heater that would have a longer on-off cycle.

-Dan

Thanks for the information Dan! Good to know.

[Overland Hadley]

What's the altitude shut off for that heater?

Looks like the Wave heaters are rated to work up to 12,000 feet. Not bad.

[craig333]

In the winter I switch bags to this http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/rectangle-sleeping-bag-by-guide-gear.aspx?a=245534

I won't use a mummy bag unless I'm backpacking.

For occasional trips in cold country that and the stock heater work very well. You'll probably to buy or make an arctic pak.

My dog is pretty enthusiastic about the heater too:victory:

[dbolton]

Yeah, I probably should have mentioned that above. I ended up getting the arctic pack ATC sells after being cold; to echo craig333 it is surprisingly effective and certainly a factor in my heater experience.

In the wake of getting the pack it highlighted how many other places in the camper could use insulation; I'm in the process of sealing and insulating the thing.

-Dan

[SunMan]

The heater that FWC installs is 12,000 btu. So I think it should be the Wave 6, maybe even the Wave 8?

I think the Wave 3 will get it done, A Wave 6 probably too much, a Wave 8 definintely too much.

While I haven't used my Wave 3 in anything extreme yet it has kept me very warm in the mid to upper 20's. Mine is mounted under the fridge near the rear door so the heat rises directly to the upper bunk.

[18seeds]

I have used a wave 3 in a NorthStar Arrow above 10k a number of times. It helps a lot.

My friends use wave 3's in their pop ups and it def helps keep the furnace from cycleing all night long.

FYI: I sold my Northstar and have a wave3 sitting in my garage I am getting ready to list for sale.

[Overland Hadley]

I think the Wave 3 will get it done, A Wave 6 probably too much, a Wave 8 definintely too much.

While I haven't used my Wave 3 in anything extreme yet it has kept me very warm in the mid to upper 20's. Mine is mounted under the fridge near the rear door so the heat rises directly to the upper bunk.

That is good to know. Do you use the low setting at all when it is down to the 20's?

I read a review that said he felt the Wave 3 put out as much heat as his 12,000 btu forced air heater.

I would rather be a little warm and dry than a little cold and wet, so I am still leaning towards a 6. The 6 also has three heat setting instead of the two heat settings the 3 has. But if more people chime in saying the 3 has plenty of heat I might change my mind.

[SunMan]

Do you use the low setting at all when it is down to the 20's?


I honestly can't recall for certain. But I probably had it on low for the duration of the night after initial heating on high. I spent some cold & windy nights in Northern Baja this winter and never considered putting it on high.

I like the fact that the 6 has multiple settings but I just can't get over thinking the 3 will be plenty for a Finch. The 6 & 8 are for full size trailers and MoHo's. Also the compact size of the 3 will be to your advantage. The 6 & 8 are considerably larger devices.

Hopefully you will get some more input.

[Overland Hadley]

Also the compact size of the 3 will be to your advantage. The 6 & 8 are considerably larger devices.


The 3 is half the size, half the weight, uses half as much fuel. (But also half the heat.)

[Overland Hadley]

I will want a small stereo in the camper.

I looked over a bunch of different options, and in the end decided some small speakers to connect the ipod to would work best.

I went with these Sony speakers because I have a pair of similar speakers made by Sony that are about 12 years old, and they still work and sound good.

They will be mounted next to the little shelf located on both walls of the shell model.

Sony speakers from B&H (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/595047-REG/Sony_SRSM50_BLK.html#specifications)


.

[Overland Hadley]

I will be ordering the FWC with roof rack tracks, and will be transferring over some of the Thule rack from the topper.

Ideally I will not have much on the rack. But at some point I might need to have a Thule box on top for winter gear. I also want to be able to carry a canoe or a couple of kayaks if needed.

After looking at Northern Explorer's Finch, I decided that some roof lifting springs might be a good idea. Especially when I carry a canoe and other gear up there.



All the following info came from a thread over on WTW, so thanks goes to those guys for figuring out the specific parts.

Suspa part # C16-15952 40lb


the horizontal distance between center of pivot to center is 22 3/4" for the suspa lifters, when the top is down, of course.



The horizontal distance between the brackets must be greater than or equal to the length of the compressed strut. Place the extended strut at the points you want to attach it. Mark both the bottom and top bracket points. Lower your roof and measure the horizontal distance between these points. If it is greater than the length of the compressed strut, then you are good.



Here are the links.

Suspa Gas Springs
Link (http://shop.suspa.com/shared/StoreFront/default.asp?CS=suspashop&StoreType=BtoC&Count1=733791530&Count2=650931954&ProductID=80&Target=products.asp)

Mounting brackets
Link (http://www.maxumhardware.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=16_29&products_id=4)

Thread on WTW about "roof lifting helper shocks thingys"
Link (http://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/index.php?/topic/2974/)

[NYCO]

I like your setup and I go back and forth on whether I want this or a Flip Pac - one quick question though. I would like to do the dual swing outs with either camper style. With your swing out gates do you have to remove them to take the camper off? It looks like you have the swingouts bolted on for the mechanical jacks, so I assume that's how you lift it off. Is there enough room between the jacks and the camper when removing?

[Overland Hadley]

I like your setup and I go back and forth on whether I want this or a Flip Pac - one quick question though. I would like to do the dual swing outs with either camper style. With your swing out gates do you have to remove them to take the camper off? It looks like you have the swingouts bolted on for the mechanical jacks, so I assume that's how you lift it off. Is there enough room between the jacks and the camper when removing?

Not sure that I follow. Are you referring to a swing out bumper?

[NYCO]

Yes. The thing that's holding your ammo can, hi-lift and cans.

[Overland Hadley]

Yes. The thing that's holding your ammo can, hi-lift and cans.

Good question, it does seem like you would need to remove the swing out to clear the jacks when you mount/dismount the camper.

[dbolton]

3 options that I've come up with to overcome this:

1. Have a place to lift the camper without the need for jacks (such as, with an overhead lift system in your garage).
2. Have the swingarms removable in order to remove the camper.
3. Fabricate steel plate extensions to be bolted between the jack brackets and jacks to clear the swingarms.

Ok, 4 options:

4. Make the swingarms so they hinge downward, rather than outward (like your removed tailgate). Then, you have the benefit of a workbench/step/deck off the back door of your camper.

Have I done any of these yet? No. But I am thinking...

-Dan

[mtndog]

If you are talking about my swing-arm setup, the fuel/water carrier and ammo box can be removed from the swing-arms. They have a small length of 1-1/2" square tube welded to their bottoms and then slide on a 1-1/4" square tube welded to the swing-arm and then are locked on with a common hitch lock thru a 1/2" hole. The swing-arms will open to the same width as the bed so the camper will slide out. But I will have to offset the camper jacks with a 6" or so spacer to clear them on the outside. You will have to offset you front jacks to clear the rear fender on the Tacoma anyways, so just offset the rear jacks and you're gtg. In addition, I used a bolt/nut for the swing-arm hinges, so they may be easily removed.

[Overland Hadley]

Thanks MtnDog.

Do you have a picture showing how your swing arms are attached to the truck? Because they are mounted to the truck, not the bumper right?

[mtndog]

They are built off the existing tailgate trunnions using a ~1.5" piece of round pipe that slips over and rides on the trunnion. Everything else is built off that so the weight is on the trunnion.

http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll101/mtndog_photos/Taco_finch/P1010060.jpg

[Overland Hadley]

They look good MtnDog.

Now the big question. How can I get a set? (Did you make them, or have a shop make them?)

[Overland Hadley]

"There is just something about a teak and holly floor..."



After spending some time in a friends Westy that had a very unique faux slate floor, I decided that my camper needs an interesting floor. And while the slate was a nice look, for me a wood floor fits. And nothing is better than a teak and holly floor.

Keeping in mind the lightweight and simple philosophy of this build, and not wanting to spend the gas budget on the floor, I found this product.

www.worldpanel.com/marinelam (http://www.worldpanel.com/marinelam.htm)

Cherry and holly is nice also. :ylsmoke:

http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/7492/cherryholly.jpg

[HMR]

"There is just something about a teak and holly floor..."
Excellent idea. That flooring material in your link looks great! Anything other than carpet will be a big benefit.

One of the best mods we did to our camper van was tearing out the stinky carpet and installing laminate flooring. When properly caulked around the edges (easy job), it's virtually 100% waterproof. It's so nice to be able to jump in the camper with muddy boots or wet clothes and not worry about hurting the floor. We travel with two dirt-loving dogs and even after a week of dusty/muddy travel, cleanup takes <10 minutes with a shop vac and a damp rag. No weird odors, no mildew, etc. Our van is our biggest camping vehicle but it's by far the easiest to clean because of the laminate floor.

http://wileyp.smugmug.com/photos/806754369_3fp8A-M.jpg

FWIW- I left carpet inside all the under seat storage bins to eliminate rattles. Works perfectly. If it gets damaged or stained it's easy to just pull it out and throw in another square.

[wannaby]

You know there is an even lighter option I have used wood grain look linolium in my house and for a light weight camper it would be great too.

[Overland Hadley]

You know there is an even lighter option I have used wood grain look linolium in my house and for a light weight camper it would be great too.

A good option. But I want the "feel" of wood.

[eugene]

I used the simple peel and stick wood look alike. $30 floor.

[Overland Hadley]

I used the simple peel and stick wood look alike. $30 floor.

This type of floor can have problems with major temperature changes. My rig can see temp changes of 150 degrees in a few days.

[Overland Hadley]

Excellent idea. That flooring material in your link looks great!

Thanks!


:chef:

[ersatzknarf]

Thanks for posting that link.

I agree about the teak and holly :D

I was looking here : http://www.marine-plywood.us/Lonsealflooring.htm

It looks like you found a better option :)


"There is just something about a teak and holly floor..."



After spending some time in a friends Westy that had a very unique faux slate floor, I decided that my camper needs an interesting floor. And while the slate was a nice look, for me a wood floor fits. And nothing is better than a teak and holly floor.

Keeping in mind the lightweight and simple philosophy of this build, and not wanting to spend the gas budget on the floor, I found this product.

www.worldpanel.com/marinelam (http://www.worldpanel.com/marinelam.htm)

Cherry and holly is nice also. :ylsmoke:

http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/7492/cherryholly.jpg

[Overland Hadley]

Thanks for posting that link.

I agree about the teak and holly :D

I was looking here : http://www.marine-plywood.us/Lonsealflooring.htm

It looks like you found a better option :)

Thanks for the link to the Lonseal. World Panel had Lonseal, but the price they have listed is more than twice what you found.

Lonseal would be a good option, it would not require finishing, and it might hold up better to temperature changes.

[ersatzknarf]

You are very welcome !

Guess we found out something good about that link, huh ? ($)
:sombrero:

Thanks ! :D

Guess I was just not exactly sure if it were the kind of flooring you were looking for..., but thought it worthwhile to post what I had found.

There seems to be a lot on that website and it is not all that far away.

Really looking forward to you ordering your camper and building it up as you envisage. (You got me thinking about a shell HT - maybe a flat bed with door on the side...)


Thanks for the link to the Lonseal. World Panel had Lonseal, but the price they have listed is more than twice what you found.

Lonseal would be a good option, it would not require finishing, and it might hold up better to temperature changes.

[Overland Hadley]

I think I have figured out a way to carry three jerry cans of fuel or water with my (future) Finch FWC. More details to follow. But here is a teaser. It will have extremely good weight distribution qualities. (Low and forward on the vehicle.) And yes, it will be outside storage for the fuel.

[washington taco]

I think I have figured out a way to carry three jerry cans of fuel or water with my (future) Finch FWC. More details to follow. But here is a teaser. It will have extremely good weight distribution qualities. (Low and forward on the vehicle.) And yes, it will be outside storage for the fuel.

You will be building a flat bed simalar to 1 speed and storing them forward of the rear wheel well.

[sarconcepts]

You are pretty true about storage, I've had a FWC for 10 years now, & storage is the issue, i solved a good portion of it by getting a newer truck with an extended cab for dog stuff & gear (plus a place for the dogs to travel) & since you haven't got the truck yet, you have that option.
dry food storage is a big issue, i have a large storage compartment up front, under the front window, but when traveling, where do you put the bedding, on the bench? what about fire wood?
i'd make a thorough list of what you'll be bringing first, then try to figure out where it all goes, it gets tight quick, because you can't leave anything up high (like the bedding, this takes up alot of space when down)
& although i agree with the back porch idea, i find the only way to work with these short doors is to climb 'up' through them, the best way to test this is to climb into one on the ground, you'll see, I've got a step that flips up when not in use, which is attached to my 2" receiver, & i use it all the time just as a truck, to lift things up into the bed.

[Overland Hadley]

I already have the truck, it is a 2007 Tacoma extended cab. And sadly no flat bed is planned at this point.

I have done 4 trips of 6-8 weeks in the Tacoma, so I have a good idea of what I need and what can fit.

I will have more storage space in the FWC than I do now with the topper shell and sleeping platform/drawer system. But the idea is to be more comfortable in cold/rainy/buggy/sandstorm conditions. So I am trying to figure out how to have as much storage as possible while still maintaining a comfortable space inside the FWC shell model.

I found this cabinet. I think it would fit, but it is heavy at 30 lbs. Link (http://www.garagecabinetsonline.com/Stack-On-All-Steel-Construction-Wall-Cabinet.html)

http://www.garagecabinetsonline.com/store/i/is.aspx?path=/Shared/images/Stack-On/SGO-1250-DS.jpg&lr=t&bw=300&bh=300

In the end I still think the best solution (compromise) for interior storage in my camper will be the floor covered in the larger Action Packers. Then in camp the AP's can be stacked in the front floor area. Clothes and bedding can be tossed about in duffel bags.

This system will keep the weight down low during travel, and will be moveable enough to provide places to sit and work at camp.

Of course this is all just theory at this point.

[craig333]

You are pretty true about storage, I've had a FWC for 10 years now, & storage is the issue, i solved a good portion of it by getting a newer truck with an extended cab for dog stuff & gear (plus a place for the dogs to travel) & since you haven't got the truck yet, you have that option.
dry food storage is a big issue, i have a large storage compartment up front, under the front window, but when traveling, where do you put the bedding, on the bench? what about fire wood?
i'd make a thorough list of what you'll be bringing first, then try to figure out where it all goes, it gets tight quick, because you can't leave anything up high (like the bedding, this takes up alot of space when down)


Thats not true on the newer models. They're now made so you can leave your bedding in place. Wish mine was that way.

[Overland Hadley]

Thats not true on the newer models. They're now made so you can leave your bedding in place. Wish mine was that way.

Bedding as in bed cushions, or can you leave blankets in the cab over as well?

[1tonpaulie]

I leave my sleeping bag and an extra blanket up there on my 2010 Grandby

[Overland Hadley]

I leave my sleeping bag and an extra blanket up there on my 2010 Grandby


Thanks.

[Overland Hadley]

Okay, after a couple days of thinking about not much more than propane and camper heaters I have come to a conclusion. I do need a really good heater in the camper, not a cheap little piece, but a solid built in heater.

Thanks for all the advice, here is what I have come up with.

Olympian Wave 3 Heater.
Link (http://www.uscatalytic.com/uscatalytic/ProductMulti.cfm?SubCategoryId=226&ProductId=2319&CornerImage=titleheat%2Ejpg)
(From Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000BUV1RK/sr=1-2/qid=1282100813/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&qid=1282100813&sr=1-2&seller=))

Paired with the Ragasco fiberglass propane tank. (Featured in the Summer 2009 Overland Journal)
lpgastanks.com Link (http://www.lpgastanks.com/propane-tanks/lc10) (OJ readers get 10% off, as of 2009)

The heater weighs 6 pounds and will be mounted to the back wall of the camper. The tank weighs 7.5 pounds empty and will be stored at the bottom front of the camper, keeping the weight of the fuel low and forward on the rig.


Note: I did have a hard time deciding between the Ragasco tank and an aluminum propane tank. So if anybody has a reason why aluminum would be better please let me know.


Heater decision has been finalized.

Found a sale on the Olympian Wave 3 heater for $99. It turned out to be a typo, but they honored the price.

I am really impressed with the Wave 3. Looks well built, and is more or less lightweight at 6 lbs.

(I will be using a second Wave 3 that I bought as a space heater in my studio. Should get a good feel for its heating capabilities during the 7-8 months of cold weather we have.)

[Hill, Bill E.]

Should get a good feel for its heating capabilities during the 7-8 months of cold weather we have.)

And I think it started today! :REOutIceFishing:



:coffeedrink:

[Overland Hadley]

Propane tank question.

Is it a major no-no to have the propane tank stored inside the camper, in the open, e.g. not in a sealed box?

I know it is a big problem in a boat, where the propane will settle in the bilge. And it can be very hard to clear propane from a bilge.

But in the camper, if there was a leak it would drift along the floor and out a couple of small vents I have planned. And the bed is a few feet above the floor.

I am thinking campers and rv's have the sealed propane compartments because of legal issues. Makes sense to me, just do not know if I need to do that in my camper.

I carried a dozen 1 pound tanks under the sleeping platform with out much of a thought. But I do not want to shock people with a propane tank under the sink.

Thoughts on this?

[Overland Hadley]

I was having a hard time sleeping the other night, so I got out the graph paper and put down my ideas for the interior build of the Finch.

I welcome any thoughts, ideas, or questions.


One square = approx. 3"

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/5237/finchinteriorbp.jpg

[Northern Explorer]

Your design looks good. I would find a way to vent the propane to the outside. Also, if you go with a two burner stove you will have a little extra countertop space.

[tnt]

I notice your stove is mostly covered when the bed is extended. We have a 2003 FWC and you can not use the stove while the bed is extended. This bothers some people because an early riser can't get coffee or breakfast going until the second person gets up. No problem if you are traveling solo, though. FWC has since changed their design and switched the locations of the sink and stove.
What is the dotted line labeled "A"?

[Overland Hadley]

Your design looks good. I would find a way to vent the propane to the outside. Also, if you go with a two burner stove you will have a little extra countertop space.

Thanks!

As you know, an outside vented propane tank is an uninsulated space in the camper. It would take up a lot of room to have an insulated and vented area for the tank. I think I am more worried about propane leaks coming from all the fittings on the hob or heater. And while not in use I will turn off the propane at the tank. But it is still something I am mulling over.

I decided to compromise counter top space to have the third burner. Currently, I often wish I had a third burner.

With the SMWV glass top sink and hob there will really not be any countertop space with this design. I am okay with that as the stacked plastic totes will provide an area to put things on, and I am used to working that way. But I might want to redesign. (When the glass tops are closed there will be a large "chart table" like space to work on.)

[Overland Hadley]

I notice your stove is mostly covered when the bed is extended. We have a 2003 FWC and you can not use the stove while the bed is extended. This bothers some people because an early riser can't get coffee or breakfast going until the second person gets up. No problem if you are traveling solo, though. FWC has since changed their design and switched the locations of the sink and stove.
What is the dotted line labeled "A"?

I am trying to keep the weight as far forward in the camper as possible. The major downside is that when the bed is open it will cover the sink and hob. But this design will keep the space in the back of the camper more open, so it will be easier to move around when the bed is open.

I am designing the camper as a one person plus design. The space is so small that it is hard to come up with a design that would be best for two people, yet work good for the solo traveler. All I can figure is a space that works okay for two and is just okay for one. So I am going for a space that is good for one, and okay for two.

The dotted box in the back left is the area for stacking plastic storage totes. The totes will fill the floor space while traveling. Giving storage that will be large in volume, while keeping the COG nice and low.

The unmarked line from A- -B is where a retracting clothes line will be. In addition to being used for drying clothes, it can be used to divide the back section of the camper if the PETT toilet must be used inside the camper.

[SuperCal]

That looks good, I was coming up with something kinda similar for my Hawk. I was thinking i could always move some of the plastic totes to the cab of the truck to free up the floor space once i set up at whatever random destination i arrive at. I was planning on storing the propane inside since i plan on doing 90% of my cooking outdoors and will place it out there on arrival too...

[Prybry]

I have often thought if I was going to re-build another camper I would use a high end stove like a Partner instead of a built in stove... find a storage place for it when not in use and the best part is having the ability to take it outside to cook when it is nice. I would rather cook outside anyway, it keeps the camper cooler, and less smelly:chef:
I would rig a quick disconnect and valve at the counter top and rig a longer hose and similar connector to the outside some where.

I have a suggestion for water as well...
My camper didn't have a pressure water system... it was a old style hand pump faucet... I tore the old 2 gal tank out and used the space for storage. I took the hand pump out and rigged a 12v RV water pump. But instead of finding another place in the camper for the water tank, I plumbed a inlet to the outside of the camper and use a 7 gal carry jug (sometimes 2) rigged with a hose and ball valve. When I setup camp I set the jug outside and hook up the hose to the side of the camper... turn the pump switch on and it self primes, then the ball valve keeps the water at the pump so the water reacts right when the sink faucet is turned on. I also plumbed a outside faucet, which I use for cooking outside and I even rigged up a hand shower for use with a pop up encloser. The jugs are cheap and easy to hand carry to fill when on the road.

There are a lot of ways to go... planning the build is half the fun;)

[Overland Hadley]

That looks good, I was coming up with something kinda similar for my Hawk. I was thinking i could always move some of the plastic totes to the cab of the truck to free up the floor space once i set up at whatever random destination i arrive at. I was planning on storing the propane inside since i plan on doing 90% of my cooking outdoors and will place it out there on arrival too...

Personally, moving the totes to the cab is a lot of monkeying around, for me at least. You could store them under the truck, it would stay mostly dry. Just watch out for the little critters that run around at night and like to chew on your best food. (So frustrating to wake up in the morning to find the special treat you were saving for the next couple of weeks is half eaten, and fully pooped in.) I have also thought about storing the totes in the cabover bed section. Would work great when solo, and okay when traveling with a partner.

I am way more worried about all the propane lines and fittings leaking, than the tank itself. (It is very disturbing to look behind the stove and see a huge blue flame coming from a fitting, especially when it is torching the hull of your boat.) I just hope I am not over looking something like a regulator that will off gas often.

[SuperCal]

im not worried about the tanks leaking either, i keep 4 of them in my shed and never had a leak (yes i do have a propane detector in there and a way to ventalate the shed remotely if nessisary).

My main reason to have it outside is that i dont like cooking indoors while camping, im not even planning an indoor stove. (although i might have a microwave for that emergency meal.. LOL)

[Overland Hadley]

I have often thought if I was going to re-build another camper I would use a high end stove like a Partner instead of a built in stove... find a storage place for it when not in use and the best part is having the ability to take it outside to cook when it is nice. I would rather cook outside anyway, it keeps the camper cooler, and less smelly:chef:
I would rig a quick disconnect and valve at the counter top and rig a longer hose and similar connector to the outside some where.

I have a suggestion for water as well...
My camper didn't have a pressure water system... it was a old style hand pump faucet... I tore the old 2 gal tank out and used the space for storage. I took the hand pump out and rigged a 12v RV water pump. But instead of finding another place in the camper for the water tank, I plumbed a inlet to the outside of the camper and use a 7 gal carry jug (sometimes 2) rigged with a hose and ball valve. When I setup camp I set the jug outside and hook up the hose to the side of the camper... turn the pump switch on and it self primes, then the ball valve keeps the water at the pump so the water reacts right when the sink faucet is turned on. I also plumbed a outside faucet, which I use for cooking outside and I even rigged up a hand shower for use with a pop up encloser. The jugs are cheap and easy to hand carry to fill when on the road.

There are a lot of ways to go... planning the build is half the fun;)


You are correct about the planning.



A Partner stove was also on my list, but there are a couple reasons I think a built in would work better for me.

- No setup or hooking up of propane lines.

- Most of the time I cook and eat in the dark. (The life of a photographer.) And usually after dark it is getting cold, so I will not mind the extra heat. As far as smell goes, well rice and pasta do not smell much. While food is cooking I am usually cleaning gear, looking over maps, that sort of thing. Easier done inside at night. And I will still be carrying a small backpacking stove, so if it is boiling hot I can heat something up outside, more likely I would just be eating a sandwich at that point.

- The SMEV hob puts out 40% less Co, uses 30% less propane, and fires a flame that is almost 500*. The three burner unit I have puts out a total of 15,500 BTU. Impressive specs.

So in the end the SMEV hob made the most sense for me. But having a Partner stove has its merit, and if I traveled differently it would be a good way to go.


I am still deciding on water tanks. I was planning on a custom 12 gallon plastic tank. But carrying two Wedco water jerry cans is looking like it might be a good way to go. In addition to the 10 gallon Front Runner tank that is going in the cab of the truck.

- The two Wedco's would weigh about ten pounds more than a plastic tank.

- They could be carried to the water source to be filled. As opposed to decanting gallon after gallon into a built in tank.

- They could be moved/removed to lighten the load if I was stuck.

- Wedcos could be used to pour large amounts of water on a fire.

- I already have two Wedco water cans.

So the water tank inside the camper is yet to be decided.


I think hand pumps and 12v pumps are a joke. I will post my solution shortly.

[Overland Hadley]

(although i might have a microwave for that emergency meal.. LOL)

Genorator, or big bank of batteries?

[Northern Explorer]

Genorator, or big bank of batteries?

I have found no use for a genorator or even a solar panel (but I think having a solar panel would be cool). 150 amp hour battery bank is enough for me. The trick is to have the battery seperator that FWC offers. LED lighting helps a lot. My 12 volt fridge is pretty efficient and I believe you are going with a catalytic heater so no amp draw there. If I'm ever in doute about my battery charge, I'll just start my engine for a few minutes. I camped 3 days/nights a few weeks ago in one location and I could have easliy stayed longer.

A second battery is way cheaper then a solar panel or a genorator.

[SuperCal]

Genorator, or big bank of batteries?

I'm going with 2 batteries and an inverter that i will switch on only when i need 110v (prob only for the microwave). I will be using 12v led lighting (have fixtures that are pretty bright and draw .08 amp) and 12v chargers for my cameras and laptop. ARB fridge too.

[Overland Hadley]

I have found no use for a genorator or even a solar panel (but I think having a solar panel would be cool). 150 amp hour battery bank is enough for me. The trick is to have the battery seperator that FWC offers. LED lighting helps a lot. My 12 volt fridge is pretty efficient and I believe you are going with a catalytic heater so no amp draw there. If I'm ever in doute about my battery charge, I'll just start my engine for a few minutes. I camped 3 days/nights a few weeks ago in one location and I could have easliy stayed longer.

A second battery is way cheaper then a solar panel or a genorator.

The only battery needs I will have will be to run a laptop. The camper will have a catalytic heater and no fridge.

[Overland Hadley]

Water pump will be a Whale Gusher Galley MK3 Foot Pump.


http://us.binnacle.com/images/productimages/24207.jpg


I have used these pumps for years and have never had a single problem with one. The foot pump is really nice while cooking, and using one has become second nature to me. (I rarely turn on the pressurized water system on the boat, the foot pump is easier to use and wastes a lot less water.) The pump is mounted on the floor behind the cabinet, with the foot pump sticking out a small hole.

Some of the good points about this pump:

Self primes
Double action pump
4 gallons per minute
Easy to pump dry for freezing nights
And it uses no battery power


Binnacle.com has the best price on them. Link (http://us.binnacle.com/p2356/WHALE-GUSHER-GALLEY-MK3-PUMP/product_info.html)

[Overland Hadley]

Here is the water tank I will be using. It will keep the 100 pounds (11-tank, 89-water) stored low and forward in the truck.

Front Runner Footwell Water Tank (Link (http://www.frontrunneroutfitters.com/Water-Solutions/FRONT-RUNNER-FOOTWELL-WATER-TANK-40L-10-57-Gallons-p105.html))
http://www.frontrunneroutfitters.com/images/products/1922.jpg


Just ordered this water tank from Equipt (http://www.equipt1.com/companies/Storage%20Solutions/product-fr/130866-water-footwell-water-tank-40l).

I think that with the 40L this tank has, I will carry just one 20L Wedco in the camper.

That gives me 16 gallons, and if I need more can fill a couple of the MSR bladders, giving me in the area of 25 gallons of water.

[ersatzknarf]

Hi OH,
Speaking of SMEV, they have a new offering of a single burner/sink combi called the 8800 series. Haven't found it here in the States yet, but googling it (i.e.: SMEV 8821) finds it on several UK sites. It's their most compact and you can choose to have the sink on the left or right side. By the way, thanks for posting about the foot pump. That's good food for thought.

Any thoughts on Finch order timing ?

[Overland Hadley]

Hi OH,
Speaking of SMEV, they have a new offering of a single burner/sink combi called the 8800 series. Haven't found it here in the States yet, but googling it (i.e.: SMEV 8821) finds it on several UK sites. It's their most compact and you can choose to have the sink on the left or right side. By the way, thanks for posting about the foot pump. That's good food for thought.

Any thoughts on Finch order timing ?

SMEV makes some nice stuff. I like the design of the units I got, they fit my planned layout nicely. I need to make a post on them.

Not sure when I will ordering the Finch. I am currently working on the contract to work on the water again next summer. If we run the boat again next summer then the camper will have to wait till the fall/winter of 2011.

[ersatzknarf]

Hi OH,

I do like their stuff and the concept of having a built-in cover is very appealing as well. (saw your wtw post, after mine...)

Makes sense about the order timing. Anyway, they keep coming up with neat stuff and improvements all the time, so delaying doesn't seem to be a disadvantage :coffeedrink:

Anyway, really enjoying all this discussion and think you're making good progress on the design. I'll just keep enjoying following along...


SMEV makes some nice stuff. I like the design of the units I got, they fit my planned layout nicely. I need to make a post on them.

Not sure when I will ordering the Finch. I am currently working on the contract to work on the water again next summer. If we run the boat again next summer then the camper will have to wait till the fall/winter of 2011.

[Overland Hadley]

Makes sense about the order timing. Anyway, they keep coming up with neat stuff and improvements all the time, so delaying doesn't seem to be a disadvantage :coffeedrink:

Anyway, really enjoying all this discussion and think you're making good progress on the design. I'll just keep enjoying following along...

The only disadvantage is the fact that the price keeps going up. FWC's will cost an extra $500 come December. Do they raise the price every year? I know that in the big picture the price increase is not a big deal, just means my budget will have to be adjusted.

The new one piece roof looks great, even though I will have to have holes in it for the roof rack. The Radius door looks like a proper door. And I have a feeling there might be some more updates coming.

[Overland Hadley]

By the way, thanks for posting about the foot pump. That's good food for thought.


I think a pressurized water system is good if you have a hot water system or an outside shower. But other than that, I can not think of why you would want anything other than the Whale foot pump.

By the way, my hot water system will be pouring a pot of hot water back into the water tank. Presto, hot (okay, warm) water at the tap.

[Overland Hadley]

Paired with the Ragasco fiberglass propane tank. (Featured in the Summer 2009 Overland Journal)
lpgastanks.com Link (http://www.lpgastanks.com/propane-tanks/lc10) (OJ readers get 10% off, as of 2009)

The tank weighs 7.5 pounds empty and will be stored at the bottom front of the camper, keeping the weight of the fuel low and forward on the rig.




Received the Ragasco propane tank today.
Looks great. The wide base makes it sit stable. I ordered the larger 17 tank, and it is very close in size to the Wedco that it will sit next to.

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/5329/ragasco.jpg

[Overland Hadley]

Ready for some cabinetry work.

½ Baltic Birch

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/4639/balticbirch.jpg

At 1.7 pounds per square foot, it's not too heavy.
And I have some weight saving design plans, think Sönke's camper interior. :chef:


This is a winter project, something to putter on during long winter evenings.

[Northern Explorer]

Those Ragasco propane tanks are nice. I would consider getting one if they made a horizontal tank.

[ersatzknarf]

I think there are some horizontal ones out there, but likely for forklifts, etc. I think Carlyle had a set-up that had the correct valving for camper use, as well as the forklift fittings, iirc, but his is not a composite tank. (need to check that - this one might help : http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=131782&postcount=19 )

We'll probably go with a smaller diameter tank, as it will be mounted outside, near the rear door. (i.e.: this one is 9.7" OD http://www.propaneproducts.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=384 )

I want to use Baltic Birch as well and seeing that photo reminded me that a lot of German set-ups use "road case" or "flight case" construction (you know, those cases that roadies use for band equipment). That might be something to look into for the interior as it is not overly complex, there are a number of places that sell the parts (extrusions, corners, etc.), and it might work for the inside/outside kitchen idea.

just thinking... :)

[Overland Hadley]

We'll probably go with a smaller diameter tank, as it will be mounted outside, near the rear door. (i.e.: this one is 9.7" OD http://www.propaneproducts.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=384 )


Interesting, I had not found another place that is making composite propane tanks. I like the 10 lb skinny and tall tank.
Comparing the 20 lb size, I like the design of the Ragasco tank better, and it weighs a couple pounds less.

If you want a really skinny and tall tank (6" OD) check this aluminum one out. Link (http://www.protanksupply.com/camping-propane-tanks_detail.asp?ID=1002)

[ersatzknarf]

Thanks for the link. Wow ! 6.26" OD - that is skinny ! Too bad it's not composite, too ;)

Like that 10# tank, too. Not sure that we'll go with that one posted in the link - just that for us it'll need to be something similar - and 10# size might work well for us... Really like being able to see how much remains in the tank - that's a great feature.

Have links for the case building somewhere on my other computer and can try to post later, if there's interest.

[Overland Hadley]

Have links for the case building somewhere on my other computer and can try to post later, if there's interest.

Sure, links are always good.

[Overland Hadley]

Drew up a cut list for the cabinetry.

Looks like with some weight saving measures I should be at about 30 pounds of birch. That's keeping it light!

[Prybry]

I think a pressurized water system is good if you have a hot water system or an outside shower. But other than that, I can not think of why you would want anything other than the Whale foot pump.

By the way, my hot water system will be pouring a pot of hot water back into the water tank. Presto, hot (okay, warm) water at the tap.

I take one of my blue water jugs and place it on the sunny side of the truck... by late afternoon when you want (need) a shower the water is at a nice warm temp.... perfect shower temp.

After having the convenience of a pressurized water tap at the back of the camper, for washing dishes, filling camp coffee pots, and hand washing after using the porti-john (in the outside encloser) I would never give it up.
The pump takes up so little room and is so inexpensive, yeah it draws a little power but not so much your battery bank would notice.

The foot pump would be fine at point of use no doubt... but having water at other points such as outside, I'd question the application. I suppose gravity is also an option. Get to camp and throw the jug up on the roof... pressure for free:REExeSwimmingHL:

[Overland Hadley]

I take one of my blue water jugs and place it on the sunny side of the truck... by late afternoon when you want (need) a shower the water is at a nice warm temp.... perfect shower temp.

I have a Zodi shower. Most likly it will make it onto the camper.


After having the convenience of a pressurized water tap at the back of the camper, for washing dishes, filling camp coffee pots, and hand washing after using the porti-john (in the outside encloser) I would never give it up.
The pump takes up so little room and is so inexpensive, yeah it draws a little power but not so much your battery bank would notice.

(On my camper) What battery bank? :ylsmoke:


The foot pump would be fine at point of use no doubt... but having water at other points such as outside, I'd question the application. I suppose gravity is also an option. Get to camp and throw the jug up on the roof... pressure for free:REExeSwimmingHL:

An outside water tap would be nice. But after all these years of pouring water out of a water bottle, I am fine with that for now. At some point in the future I could certainly see wanting a pressurized outside water tap. But that will need to wait for a full sized rig.

[Overland Hadley]

Just wanted to pull this post from Northern Explorer's thread to show how to insulate the lower part of the camper.

While the upper part of a FWC is aluminum framed and insulated, the lower part is wood and uninsulated.
Of course heat rises, and there is not much R value to the pop top. But it might be something worth doing.



I did the entire bottom and sides with 1/2" rigid foam. Make sure you purchase the correct adhesive. First picture was taken before it was completed.http://i629.photobucket.com/albums/uu15/ppijeff/Camper%20pics/IMGP0032.jpghttp://i629.photobucket.com/albums/uu15/ppijeff/Camper%20pics/IMGP0033.jpg
Jeff




Another possible source?
http://www.farmtek.com/farm/supplies/cat1a;ft1_tekfoil_reflective_foil_insulation.html

[Overland Hadley]

Want just the facts, and none of the chat?

I have edited the first post to include links to the "details" posts.

[Overland Hadley]

I just joked about this in a previous post, but I have concluded that I will not have a battery bank in the camper.

The GVWR is so limiting on the Tacoma, and I am at a disadvantage with the amount of heavy camera gear that I travel with. At this point I can not see that it is worth the cost of 40-70 pounds for a battery.

I do not need a battery for the heater, or for the water pump. That leaves the camper lights and the laptop.

As far as the camper lights go there is no good solution. I will have them hooked up to the truck battery for limited LED use. And I will come up with some other stand alone lighting.

For charging the laptop, I think I will go with an external battery and a DC/DC charging system from HyperMac (http://www.hypershop.com/). (Although, as I went to get the link for HyperMac I noticed that they are ceasing to make the external battery system in a couple of weeks, licensing agreement stuff. So I might end up just charging the laptop while I drive via the inverter.)

[ersatzknarf]

Better late than . . . ;)

These are some links I found, especially the first one, where you can learn to make this type of case. The last link is apparently the source for many places that sell road case parts. If anyone has experience with this method of interior build-out, it would be great to hear about it.

http://www.do-it-yourselfroadcases.com/home.html

http://www.cnsenterprises.com/store/cart.php?m=product_list&c=9

http://www.penn-elcom.com/Default.asp?MC=1100000&GC=Group

There must be a whole lot more out there, but this is a start...


Sure, links are always good.

[Overland Hadley]

Not very "ExPo" but I like this for the camper.

Trash Can


Hey, we all need a place to put the trash.

I like that it can be mounted under the sink, and is sized to use the plastic grocery bags.

[Overland Hadley]

Thanks to Ted/Magellan over on WTW for this idea.

http://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/uploads/1282760467/gallery_2_113_38123.jpg

Here is the write up on the rear mounted jerry can holder. Link (http://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/index.php?/topic/3657/)

And the Adventure Trailers aluminum jerry can holder. Link (http://www.adventuretrailers.com/page/accessories/fuel_and_water/can_holders/) (This thing is great, very impressed with this item.)


http://chobao.smugmug.com/photos/261925315_eRxEG-M.jpg

[Overland Hadley]

In addition to the Front Runner Footwell Water Tank (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=687127&postcount=75), I will have two other water tanks.

One tank will be located under the sink, and will be plumbed to the Whale Water Pump (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=728930&postcount=160). Second tank will be located in the floor area of the passenger seat, inside the truck. (This will of course only work when traveling solo.)

The two water tanks will be Scepter Water Cans (http://www.brigadeqm.com/cgi-bin/tame.exe/store/level4c.tam?M5COPY.ctx=30989&M5.ctx=30989). This has changed from Wedco cans for two reasons, 1- the Scepter can are almost half the weight, 2- I have had some problems with rust and the plastic liner in the Wedco water cans. Also the Scepters have a large opening that will allow the pump for the shower to fit inside.

[Overland Hadley]

"In conditions like this, a shower is not a luxury, it is a necessity."



I have used a couple shower systems, including one with a sprayer head on a Super Syphon. But easier is better, and this Zodi shower is the best solution I have found.

Zodi Hot Tap (http://www.zodi.com/Consumer/zodihottaptravelshower.html)

One morning I used it in close to freezing temps and at 10,000 feet. The batteries in the pump had a little trouble pumping the water up six feet, probably from the cold. So in the future I will try and not pump the water up as far. The new Scepter cans will allow the pump to be used directly in the jerry can, easier than the dry bag system I used on the last trip.

The pump and battery setup is a bit bulky and hard to store, and I have thought about going back to a gravity fed setup. But with the pump you can recirculate the water for a while and heat it up hotter than one pass through the heater would provide.

I would like to not carry a 1lb tank just for the shower. A bulk tank adapter is available, but the 1lb tank does allow the shower to be used away from the camper. The Stove Top model would be nice, but at this point I do not think I will be showering inside the camper. But, if I.....


edit: I have started considering using a stainless steel sprayer tank heated on the stove top. It would be bulky, but would weigh less than the Zodi Hot Tap when you consider the need to carry 1lb fuel canisters for it. If nothing else it would be a simpler system than the Hot Tap, no pump-batteries-1lb fuel, and with the stove top in the camper it looks like it would be simper to get going.

Here is the best looking tank I have found. Solo 465 Stainless Steel Sprayer (http://www.forestry-suppliers.com/product_pages/View_Catalog_Page.asp?mi=3672#)

[Overland Hadley]

The campers interior LED lights will have to be used sparingly, as they will be running off the single truck battery. This will work for me, as the weight savings of not having a second battery is impressive.

I have been mulling over options for my main light source. I thought about a LED lantern like the Black Diamond Apollo. (Link (http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/shop/mountain/lighting/apollo)) But in the end I hate dragging around small batteries as much as I hate the heavy big ones.

Then I remembered the three candle lanterns I bought for a trip in the pacific north west. There was something warm and comforting about sitting around a couple of candles, especially in the never ending rain. Sure, they can be a bit of a pain, but it's something I do not mind dealing with.

I have the standard UCO Candle Lantern, (Link (www.candlelantern.com)) customized with some of my stickers.

[Overland Hadley]

I will be ordering the FWC with roof rack tracks, and will be transferring over some of the Thule rack from the topper.

Ideally I will not have much on the rack. But at some point I might need to have a Thule box on top for winter gear. I also want to be able to carry a canoe or a couple of kayaks if needed.

After looking at Northern Explorer's Finch, I decided that some roof lifting springs might be a good idea. Especially when I carry a canoe and other gear up there.



All the following info came from a thread over on WTW, so thanks goes to those guys for figuring out the specific parts.

Suspa part # C16-15952 40lb



Here are the links.

Suspa Gas Springs
Link (http://shop.suspa.com/shared/StoreFront/default.asp?CS=suspashop&StoreType=BtoC&Count1=733791530&Count2=650931954&ProductID=80&Target=products.asp)

Mounting brackets
Link (http://www.maxumhardware.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=16_29&products_id=4)

Thread on WTW about "roof lifting helper shocks thingys"
Link (http://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/index.php?/topic/2974/)

If anybody is thinking about getting a set of gas springs for their camper, now is the time.
Suspa has raised the price on these to $40 each, but there are some available on ebay for $14 each.

Ebay link (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320561836124&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWNX%3AIT#ht_2089wt_941)
edit: Another lot of the same springs from the same seller. Link (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/40-lb-35-Gas-Strut-Spring-Shock-Lift-Suspa-C16-15952-/220707596876?pt=Motors_RV_Trailer_Camper_Parts_Acc essories&hash=item336332aa4c#ht_2089wt_941)

I just ordered a full set of four, plus two spares.

Thanks to UglyScout on WTW for the heads up.

[MakersTeleMark]

Wow, that's a steal! Thanks so much for the link.

[slooowr6]

Thanks for the link just bought a set!

[Overland Hadley]

Wow, that's a steal! Thanks so much for the link.


Thanks for the link just bought a set!

Great! Glad you guys were able to get a set while they are still available.

Looks like between the two listing there is one more set of 4.

I bet it raised some eyes when they sold almost 30 springs in a couple days, after selling just a single one in the last month.

[Overland Hadley]

Looks like between the two listing there is one more set of 4.


Just two springs left.

But I did find that they also have some springs made to be replacements to the Suspa c16-15952. They are not priced as well as the Suspas were, but still a good deal.

Listing 1
(http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/36-Gas-Spring-Shock-Strut-prop-REP-SUSPA-C16-15952-/220696843465?pt=Motors_RV_Trailer_Camper_Parts_Acc essories&hash=item33628e94c9#ht_2011wt_941)
Listing 2
(http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2ea-Gas-Spring-Strut-shock-lift-REP-SUSPA-C16-15952-/220696915898?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item33628fafba#ht_2055wt_941)

[Overland Hadley]

Are Rieco Titan camper jacks the best way to go? Link (http://www.dyersonline.com/rieco-titan-standard-tripod-camper-jack-3-pack.html)

I don't want jacks on the camper, so I am looking at some kind of tripod jack.

[tnt]

I can't reply about the tripod jacks, but wanted to let you know about my experience with the customer service at Rieco Titan. A couple of months ago I was removing my FWC from our truck when one of my Rieco Titan corner jacks stopped working. I could spin the mechanism, but the leg would not raise or lower. The pin in the gear had sheered. When I called RT, the woman on the phone stated that the cost of those was so far below their minimum order, she would just send me a new pin. A couple of days later an envelope arrived with two pins, one being a spare for any future problems. No cost, no hastle. I have no experience with other manafacturers and am not saying they don't have good customer service, but RT gets my plug for their customer service.
Ted

[Stan@FourWheel]

For most customers, their best bet is to go with the 4 corner mechanical camper jacks (2000 lbs. capacity model).

Strong, simple, safe, effective, stable, and removeable.

They are easily removeable, so you DO NOT have to leave them on all the time.

The camper jacks you can buy in sets of 3 are a bit shakey. They do work OK, but not great.

The portable cable (camper) jacks are just too scarry for most customers. The old cable jacks can work well in en emergency though, if they are your only option at the moment.


The jacks you posted a link to are cheaper, and for a few reasons.

"Rieco-Titan Standard Tripod Camper Jack - 3 Pack"

There is nothing wrong with these, the quality is good, they work, but ...

1. You have only 3, so the camper is a bit more shakey when loading / unloading.

2. You have to deal with the aluminum tri-pod feet, where to put them?, what to do with them?, because they are not attached to the jacks.

3. Capacity is a bit less (1500 lbs.) but this is no big deal with the pop-up campers.

4. The mounting brackets might not fit all that well when mounted to a FWC. Our campers are built tight fitting to the truck bed, and the aluminum mounting bracket has a 45 degree brace on the side that might hit the bed rails of your truck. You could mount the brackets farther out (sticking out more) for better clearance, but then the brackets are sticking out pretty far.


Just thought I would let you know.

Spend the extra couple hundred dollars & get the nicer jacks.

:)


--------------------------------------------------------------------


Are Rieco Titan camper jacks the best way to go? Link (http://www.dyersonline.com/rieco-titan-standard-tripod-camper-jack-3-pack.html)

I don't want jacks on the camper, so I am looking at some kind of tripod jack.

.


.


.

[slooowr6]

Are Rieco Titan camper jacks the best way to go? Link (http://www.dyersonline.com/rieco-titan-standard-tripod-camper-jack-3-pack.html)

I don't want jacks on the camper, so I am looking at some kind of tripod jack.

My truck is only lifted 0.75" and combine with 32" tires. I can say from experience with the jack extended to the point it can clear the truck bed. It's pretty scary, for sure I don't want to do it with a portable jack. With the jack remove from the camper there is not much added weight other than the 4 brackets at the 4 corners. Another plus to have the jacket attached is when loading the camper on to the truck. There is not much clearance on each side to slide in the camper. I am really bad at loading the camper so every now and then I bump into the camper lightly when try to align the truck. Not sure what will happen if camper is on a portable tripod jack.

[Overland Hadley]

Thanks for the information guys.

Trying to watch cost as much as possible.

Does the Gen 2 Tacoma with a Finch/Eagle need the swing-out brackets (http://www.fourwheelcampers.com/SwingoutBrkt.jpg) for the front jacks?

[slooowr6]

Thanks for the information guys.

Trying to watch cost as much as possible.

Does the Gen 2 Tacoma with a Finch/Eagle need the swing-out brackets (http://www.fourwheelcampers.com/SwingoutBrkt.jpg) for the front jacks?

Mine does not have swing-out. The front jack clears the wheel well with about ~2" space on each side.

[Overland Hadley]

Mine does not have swing-out. The front jack clears the wheel well with about ~2" space on each side.

I think your ATC is 4" wider than a Finch.

[slooowr6]

I think your ATC is 4" wider than a Finch.

I see, I thought Bobcat has the same width as Eagle.

[pods8]

I see, I thought Bobcat has the same width as Eagle.

Generally speaking they are but if you look at the specs on ATC verse FWC, ATC makes their campers 84" wide verse FWC at 80" (if I'm recalling the numbers correctly off the top of my head). So an ATC will be a little bulkier on the truck but in turn offers more sleeping length in the top bunk when perpendicular to the truck and more interior space in the main camper. Weight your priorities accordingly.

[slooowr6]

Generally speaking they are but if you look at the specs on ATC verse FWC, ATC makes their campers 84" wide verse FWC at 80" (if I'm recalling the numbers correctly off the top of my head). So an ATC will be a little bulkier on the truck but in turn offers more sleeping length in the top bunk when perpendicular to the truck and more interior space in the main camper. Weight your priorities accordingly.

Ah, I remember that now. Thanks.
Looks like Finch will need the swing out to clear the rear wheel fender.

[Overland Hadley]

Looks like Finch will need the swing out to clear the rear wheel fender.

Well damn!

The swing outs brackets from FWC are an additional $260, there must be a cheaper option, even if it is a home made bracket extension.

That puts the four corner jacks at just under one grand. Not going to happen at that cost. I will deal with the tripod jacks , or think about a home grown option. (A home grown jacking option is scary, I know.)

[SuperCal]

Are you sure you need the swingouts? If you can run a straight edge down the side of your camper and not hit the body you should be fine, the jacks stick out an inch or so past the side of the camper once mounted...


Ps, a Finch is 69" wide according to FWCs website...

[Overland Hadley]

I will try and get ahold of Stan at FWC tomorrow and see what the options are.

But every photo I could find of a Gen 2 Tacoma with a Finch/Eagle with the jacks on also has the swing out brackets.

It is possible that if the plan is to take the jacks off after loading there are other options.

[Stan@FourWheel]

If you have a 2005 - 2010 toyota tacoma, and you are putting the finch or eagle models on the truck, you will need swing-out brackets, or you can make some small aluminum extension plates.

I will try and post pics when I have time.

It will be easy.

:)


---------------------------------------------------------------------



I will try and get ahold of Stan at FWC tomorrow and see what the options are.

But every photo I could find of a Gen 2 Tacoma with a Finch/Eagle with the jacks on also has the swing out brackets.

It is possible that if the plan is to take the jacks off after loading there are other options.



.



.

[Overland Hadley]

If you have a 2005 - 2010 toyota tacoma, and you are putting the finch or eagle models on the truck, you will need swing-out brackets, or you can make some small aluminum extension plates.

I will try and post pics when I have time.

It will be easy.

:)
.

Does FWC offer a bracket extension? Or is it something I need to figure out before I get the camper?

If I need to have it made beforehand, do you have a PDF of the size and bolt placement it will need to be?

[pods8]

I had a thought for you. Bearing in mind I've not seen this product in person, if you have a harbor freight near by it might be worth checking on the quality of the jack below. Assuming this is only for the occasional on/off of the camper and not traveling with them on, for the cost it might be a decent option.

You need to get a bracket for the camper made up, maybe just mimic the kind that already come on the camper or order just the brackets with the camper if that's an option. If you are having one made then I'd see about aluminum or stainless steel so you don't have peeling paint issues like we all have. Then you'd just need a flat plate drilled to match the camper bracket welded onto these jacks (could be built with whatever extension you need). If you know someone with a welder it would be a cake walk job and if you needed something built I can't imagine it costing too much. (Depending on how high you think you'll need to jack you might need to make the jack mount lower on a bracket, I'm not sure where they measure the heights from to get the 48" height, again go check one out if interested).

Just a thought, research/proceed at your own risk. I'll probably be checking something like this out if I go forward with my build.

$36.99 Jack (http://www.harborfreight.com/3500-lb-capacity-drop-leg-trailer-jack-3961.html)

http://www.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/370x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_691.jpg

[Overland Hadley]

Just a thought, research/proceed at your own risk. I'll probably be checking something like this out if I go forward with my build.

$36.99 Jack (http://www.harborfreight.com/3500-lb-capacity-drop-leg-trailer-jack-3961.html)


Thanks for the link!

That might be a doable option. Looks better than a bottle jack and a 2x4. :snorkel:

[Overland Hadley]

SMEV glass top sink with drainer, model number 8306. Link (http://www.dometic.com/enuk/Europe/United-Kingdom/Marine-Equipment/Sinks/products/?productdataid=86335)

http://www.dometic.com/FileOrganizer/productimages/sinks/VA8306R.jpg

I went with the glass top units for the utility, not for the looks, although the clean look is a good byproduct. With the glass tops I will have a large flat surface to work on when loading film and looking at maps. A chart table of sorts.

The drainer part of the sink will be in the corner of the countertop, while I will be losing countertop space with the drainer design, I feel the drainer will be more useful when cooking, and when not cooking the glass top makes it a moot point.

This was bought from Ebay when the former American distributor was clearing out stock. At this point I can not find a source for them in N.A., this is too bad because they are high quality units. There are a few places in Europe that have them available, best place I have found is LeisureshopDirect.com (http://www.leisureshopdirect.com/default.aspx?shop=caravan&menu=home&searchtext=smev&searchcriteria=Entire%20Store). I have ordered some SMEV parts from them and they are good to work with on shipping an order to North America.

I ordered an angled drain fitting for the sink. Best place I could find is noted above.

My sink does not have a faucet, future post will cover those plans.

[pods8]

By the way I picked up one of those jacks at my local harbor freight to check out. When fully extended its 52" from bottom plate to the very top of the main body tube. So it might not be too useful for a normal slide in the bed truck camper (since the jacks usually bolt onto the camper higher than that) without either rigging up a drop bracket or using a longer extension tube (I'd shoot for a longer extension tube personally). Pretty basic design but it seems like it'd work fine for the occasional on/off. However it only has ~14" of travel so if you'd want to really lower the camper down you'd need to block it and then readjust the screw/drop let position before lowering farther which could get annoying. However considering you can get a set of 4 for the price of 1 actual camper jack it just depends on where your priorities are.

[freedomofthehills]

Here is my Thule hitch mounted bike rack. It might sit far enough out to work with an Eagle on a Gen 2 Tacoma. But I would need to do some measurements.

It has been a few years since I have made a trip with the bikes, but I would like to keep my options open.


http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/2852/tbrk.jpg

My experience with a hitch mounted bike rack, mounted on an extension to clear the tailgate in a down position, is that it makes entry to the camper nearly impossible. I went with a dual hitch extension, one space for the rack the other for a 3rd brake light (for safety of course). So anyway, the system that I plan to use next is to go with a front bumper hitch mount for bikes when I need to get in/out of the camper. Ideally, if I'm driving a distance and don't want the bikes to get hammered b bugs and dirt etc on the front, then I'll leave them mounted on the rear hitch rack, and then move the whole assembly to the front when camping. Of course if you are driving everyday then this is not very feasible. Thanks for this thread it's informative...and sorry I didn't read all posts yet so someone else probably voiced this same idea...

[Overland Hadley]

By the way I picked up one of those jacks at my local harbor freight to check out. When fully extended its 52" from bottom plate to the very top of the main body tube. So it might not be too useful for a normal slide in the bed truck camper (since the jacks usually bolt onto the camper higher than that) without either rigging up a drop bracket or using a longer extension tube (I'd shoot for a longer extension tube personally). Pretty basic design but it seems like it'd work fine for the occasional on/off. However it only has ~14" of travel so if you'd want to really lower the camper down you'd need to block it and then readjust the screw/drop let position before lowering farther which could get annoying. However considering you can get a set of 4 for the price of 1 actual camper jack it just depends on where your priorities are.

Thanks for the additional information.

[Overland Hadley]

Thanks for this thread it's informative...

Your welcome. I am glad it can be a help to others.

[Overland Hadley]

After spending an evening in a friends Westy camper, I have been on the search for a good pedestal table. I have looked for the last eight months, but was not able to find what I was looking for.

Then ersatzknarf posted a link to the Lagun.

Not sure on the weight, but it is all aluminum so it should not be to bad. Edit: weight is just under 10 pounds.

Will mount a small Baltic Birch table on top. :)

http://www.cascadedepot.com/catalog/1660100.JPG

EDIT: Want the real Lagun table, order from SV HotWire (http://svhotwire.com/info/?p=772)


Thanks ersatzknarf!


Review by leadsled9


I was lucky and got one of the last Lagun mounts before the huge price increase. With that said....knowing now how nice it turned out....I'd do it again in a heartbeat, even with the price increase. The table is such an integral and central part of the entire camper functionality. With such a small space inside of these campers...the table functionality becomes a major issue IMO. The before and after functionality of the table means having a table that can be easily adjusted to exactly where you want it.....instead of having a table that is always in the way.

A few issues that the Lagun table mount cleared up for me: 1) I had my table made to larger than normal specs...but that created an issue in that I couldn't open either lid on my under-the-seat storage to it's fully open position with the table mounted as the lids hit the table edge. Now I simply swivel the table over a few inches one way or the other to get full access to the storage boxes. 2) the table leg and mounting pedestal was always in the way for my feet...and I could [not] easily put my feet up on the opposite seat cushion....easy to do now. 3) I always had to dismount the table when traveling....not any more. 4) I like the table at different heights depending on whether I'm typing on my laptop or eating....easy to adjust now. 5) I like the table in different positions depending on what I'm doing....easy to adjust now. 6) the space between the two storage boxes is used for storing large items...and it was a pain to do with the table mounting disk in the way...no problem now.

The Lagun table mount is really a quality product. The materials and the machining work was top notch. My buddy didn't want to mess up the beautiful work on the original mount.....so he cut the necessary amount out of the MIDDLE of each piece...then welded it back together....ground it all down even....and refinished it with a beautiful powder coat. When he handed the mount back to me....I couldn't even tell they had been modified except that they were the correct length (see picture #1). You might want to consider doing the modifications the same way so as not to effect the machining or the design of the original mount. He did such a beautiful job and he wouldn't even let me pay him...so I bought him some Blue Moon beer....his favorite.

You may choose to alter the lengths of the vertical and horizontal mounts or not....but if you want to mount in the same place as I did...you will have to have the mounting plate modified so the nuts/washers will have clearance. The mount plate originally fit perfect if you didn't need the clearance. The height went right to the top edge of the shelf.

I advise those of you that wish to use a similar mount to get a table made that is larger than the standard FWC table. I'm very pleased with the way the mount turned out.


http://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/index.php?/topic/4643/page__pid__53997__st__0&#entry53997

[herm]

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56468

if you can weld the brackets and legs, a hydraulic system like mine would cost maybe 300 dollars. I had to have my brackets built by a shop, so it cost me more. I really like my system, it works great if the load is even on the cylinders, otherwise its goes up and down a bit un-evenly but still works pretty well.

[ersatzknarf]

Hi Nathanael,
You are very welcome !
You found the same set up at a MUCH better price ! ! !
Thank you for the link and saving me a bunch of dosh :sombrero:

[Overland Hadley]

Hi Nathanael,
You are very welcome !
You found the same set up at a MUCH better price ! ! !
Thank you for the link and saving me a bunch of dosh :sombrero:

I am glad you had not ordered it already, as Cascade Depot is a third the cost.

So thanks for the link, and your welcome for saving you the money.

[ersatzknarf]

Hi again Nathanael,

FYI follow-up : please, be sure to read the warning on the original website :

http://svhotwire.com/info/?p=772

"CAUTION: THERE IS A COMPANY IMPORTING A SIMILAR PRODUCT FROM CHINA THAT IS NOT OF THE SAME QUALITY"

[Overland Hadley]

Hi again Nathanael,

FYI follow-up : please, be sure to read the warning on the original website :

http://svhotwire.com/info/?p=772

"CAUTION: THERE IS A COMPANY IMPORTING A SIMILAR PRODUCT FROM CHINA THAT IS NOT OF THE SAME QUALITY"

I saw that, but both are made by Lagun. I found some posts from a AU forum saying they were available in the US for $75.

We could both order one and compare, I will order the cheaper one. :)

[ersatzknarf]

LOL ! Please, be my guest and go ahead first and order the less expensive one :coffeedrink:

It was the "Lagun Style" statement that made me go back and look.

If they are both made by Lagun, then it appears one place is charging a bit too much :Wow1:

For the application and if both are the same, your intention sounds fine to me. Just didn't want you to be disappointed :snorkel:


I saw that, but both are made by Lagun. I found some posts from a AU forum saying they were available in the US for $75.

We could both order one and compare, I will order the cheaper one. :)

[Overland Hadley]

It was the "Lagun Style" statement that made me go back and look.

If they are both made by Lagun, then it appears one place is charging a bit too much :Wow1:

For the application and if both are the same, your intention sounds fine to me. Just didn't want you to be disappointed :snorkel:

You are right!

That's the problem with having a million web pages open at the same time. I was looking at pictures from your link, thinking it was a picture from the sight I found.

Well, I will wait a while and order the real Lagun.

[pods8]

Well, I will wait a while and order the real Lagun.

Not sure what your priorities on a table are or not. My issue with a typical pedestal table is I don't like the raised base for the table leg. However I came across the sequoia system which has very little projection and thus removes much of the tripping/toe stubbing potential in my mind. Also seems like gear could be piled on top of it without being all tippy. I'm leaning in that direction currently.

http://www.itc-marine.com/legs.html

[ersatzknarf]

Don't worry, that is a very rare occurrence :sombrero:

Apologies for causing extra expenditure of valuable resources, however let us hope it is not in vain :snorkel:


You are right!

That's the problem with having a million web pages open at the same time. I was looking at pictures from your link, thinking it was a picture from the sight I found.

Well, I will wait a while and order the real Lagun.

[ExpoMike]

You are right!

That's the problem with having a million web pages open at the same time. I was looking at pictures from your link, thinking it was a picture from the sight I found.

Well, I will wait a while and order the real Lagun.

Damn... I was hoping you would purchase either one and give a report. I saw this info on WTW and think this is a much better setup but without anyone saying they tried them and give a real life review, I am hesitant to buy one.

[ersatzknarf]

Hi Mike,
You can ask this gentleman : http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20822

He has one in his very nice camper... :coffeedrink:


Damn... I was hoping you would purchase either one and give a report. I saw this info on WTW and think this is a much better setup but without anyone saying they tried them and give a real life review, I am hesitant to buy one.

[Overland Hadley]

Not sure what your priorities on a table are or not. My issue with a typical pedestal table is I don't like the raised base for the table leg. However I came across the sequoia system which has very little projection and thus removes much of the tripping/toe stubbing potential in my mind. Also seems like gear could be piled on top of it without being all tippy. I'm leaning in that direction currently.

http://www.itc-marine.com/legs.html

Thanks for the link. I will keep that in mind if I change my idea for a table.

I like the Lagun table because it mounts to a vertical surface, has adjustable height, and can swing from one area to another. (Out of the way, to cooking, to eating, to computer table.)

[ersatzknarf]

Bingo !

That and with additional base plates, the table and armature can be moved to other locations, such as outside :chef:


I like the Lagun table because it mounts to a vertical surface, has adjustable height, and can swing from one area to another. (Out of the way, to cooking, to eating, to computer table.)

[Overland Hadley]

Hi Mike,
You can ask this gentleman : http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20822

He has one in his very nice camper... :coffeedrink:

If there is one in Sönke's rig, that is all the proof I need that this is a good table.

[Overland Hadley]

Bingo !

That and with additional base plates, the table and armature can be moved to other locations, such as outside :chef:

I am thinking of a mount on the bumper!

(Or the outside corner of the camper.)

This is getting good...

[ersatzknarf]

I vote for outside corner of the camper :sombrero:

Yes, this is a great discussion !

BTW, it was Soenke's camper where I first saw that sailboat table support...


I am thinking of a mount on the bumper!

(Or the outside corner of the camper.)

This is getting good...

[ersatzknarf]

Here is where he bought it : http://www.svb.de/index.php?sid=a862c9342e544b349a303c1b937ae2e9&cl=details&anid=1181&tpl=&lang=1&listtype=search


(unfortunately, I cannot get the page to scroll down to look at the price, etc.)



If there is one in Sönke's rig, that is all the proof I need that this is a good table.

[Overland Hadley]

Any other sources for Lagun?

The place you originally linked to does not seem to have the additional brackets.

Edit: Did a little more research and SV HotWire looks legit. Will give them a call about additional brackets.

[pods8]

Thanks for the link. I will keep that in mind if I change my idea for a table.

I like the Lagun table because it mounts to a vertical surface, has adjustable height, and can swing from one area to another. (Out of the way, to cooking, to eating, to computer table.)

I like the looks of it too but based on my dinette configuration I want a base mount that is where the seqouia model had appeal.

Base mount desired to accommodate this configuration:
http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee329/pods8/Interior2.jpg

[ersatzknarf]

That was the link that Herr Soenke provided and I could move around the page before, but for some reason cannot today... The SV HotWire link I found by trying to locate a source a little closer to home.

(If you are calling folks, I wonder if the other site (Cascade Depot) would elaborate on the meaning of "Lagun Style" ? - if it really is the one made in Sweden, then it might be worth the savings ?)


Any other sources for Lagun?

The place you originally linked to does not seem to have the additional brackets.

Edit: Did a little more research and SV HotWire looks legit. Will give them a call about additional brackets.

[ExpoMike]

Hi Mike,
You can ask this gentleman : http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20822

He has one in his very nice camper... :coffeedrink:

Oh yeah! His is my favorite build on all of ExPo. I so want to do a hard side popup like his!!! :Wow1:

[ersatzknarf]

You should talk to Marc at XPCamper :D


Oh yeah! His is my favorite build on all of ExPo. I so want to do a hard side popup like his!!! :Wow1:

[Overland Hadley]

That was the link that Herr Soenke provided and I could move around the page before, but for some reason cannot today... The SV HotWire link I found by trying to locate a source a little closer to home.

(If you are calling folks, I wonder if the other site (Cascade Depot) would elaborate on the meaning of "Lagun Style" ? - if it really is the one made in Sweden, then it might be worth the savings ?)

I called SV HotWire, talked to a very nice lady who was very helpful. She said additional mounting brackets were $58.95, although she was not sure if they had them in stock. She did say that it was time to be placing an order from Sweden, so more would be coming. I asked if she knew how much the whole system weighed, so she went and weighed it for me, just under 10 pounds. I would feel very good about ordering from them, their prices for the Lagun are also cheeper than the converted prices on the German website.

I also called Cascade Depot, no answer. It does say their (copy) is made by Springfield Marine, I looked up their website, and they are not making stuff in Sweden.

[Overland Hadley]

I vote for outside corner of the camper :sombrero:


From looking at the pictures it looks like the table "leg" could be used upside down. This means that mounted to the rear of the camper the table could be used at a comfortable eating height. It would not be as strong, but I rarely eat 125 lbs (load rating of table) in one sitting.

[ersatzknarf]

Looks like the good vibe you were getting before calling was working.

Glad to hear you were able to compare pricing with the German website - just could not get it to work for whatever reason...

I went back and looked more closely at Cascade Depot and also saw the Springfield Marine reference, but going to their site could not find this apparent replica, although they do make a stainless steel version that does not move like the Lagun as it is more of a piece of curved tubing on a clamp arrangement.

It's looking like the SV HotWire one is a better bet albeit a bit more costly.


I called SV HotWire, talked to a very nice lady who was very helpful. She said additional mounting brackets were $58.95, although she was not sure if they had them in stock. She did say that it was time to be placing an order from Sweden, so more would be coming. I asked if she knew how much the whole system weighed, so she went and weighed it for me, just under 10 pounds. I would feel very good about ordering from them, their prices for the Lagun are also cheeper than the converted prices on the German website.

I also called Cascade Depot, no answer. It does say their (copy) is made by Springfield Marine, I looked up their website, and they are not making stuff in Sweden.

[ersatzknarf]

I think you are right about being able to flip it over and have the leg extending upward to the base plate, with the table in a lower position rather than a higher one.

It's probably good to avoid eating 125 lbs in one sitting and break it into maybe a main meal and then a snack before bedtime :chef:


From looking at the pictures it looks like the table "leg" could be used upside down. This means that mounted to the rear of the camper the table could be used at a comfortable eating height. It would not be as strong, but I rarely eat 125 lbs (load rating of table) in one sitting.

[Overland Hadley]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GriVnVrjLYw

[Overland Hadley]

http://svhotwire.com/info/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/lagun-table-label.jpg

[washington taco]

BEST link all year! That is an outstanding piece of design work. The problem most people dont realize they have until you see the video. Simple and sound design!

[Overland Hadley]

BEST link all year! That is an outstanding piece of design work. The problem most people dont realize they have until you see the video. Simple and sound design!

Thanks. (ersatzknarf gets the credit)

I am working on seeing if there is enough interest to do a group buy on a shipment from Sweden. PM me if you are interested.

[ersatzknarf]

Awwwwww, shucks :)

Really, it was Soenke and his generosity sharing the source of the table, then finding a more local source...

I am just really glad to see so many folks appreciating it and a big thanks to OH for posting that video - that is a huge help to understand its use even better ! ! !

Thanks, also, OH for starting the group buy idea :sombrero:


Thanks. (ersatzknarf gets the credit)

I am working on seeing if there is enough interest to do a group buy on a shipment from Sweden. PM me if you are interested.

[ExpoMike]

I could definitely be interested in a group buy. :D

Great video find BTW!

[Pest]

Here's my problem with the swing around tables. What if there's more than one person sitting at the table? In the video he states that there's no more "bum shuffle" to get out because you just swing the table out of the way. However, if there's another person sitting across from him, you can no longer swing the table. It would chop them in half.... so you still have the "bum shuffle."

We had a swing away table (granted it was a different design and layout), it would swing, rotate, and the height was adjustable... It got annoying pretty quick. We're going to get a post mount table.

[Overland Hadley]

Thanks to westyss for posting information about his outside light.

The Smart Light with Star Monitor (http://www.starlightsinc.com/shop/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=11&idcategory=#details)


http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/2215/lightve.jpg



I also installed this outside light, these are great, has a motion detector and came with LED, very bright and works great, recommended! It can be used normally on or set up for motion detection, and will blink red if battery levels go too low.


Light update; this light is a great addition to my camper, I like the fact that its LED, and a nice bright LED, the motion detection is great, we sit at the fire and its nice and dark, when we need to go inside to make another cold beverage, get up and the light turns on to pave the way. It doesnt go off with the dog roaming around. Two thumbs up for this unit.



Best place to buy looks to be on ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180428387646&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en#ht_1217wt_1167).



.

[Jeff Wanamog]

Thanks to westyss for posting information about his outside light.

The Smart Light with Star Monitor (http://www.starlightsinc.com/shop/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=11&idcategory=#details)


http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/2215/lightve.jpg






Best place to buy looks to be on ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180428387646&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:top:en#ht_1217wt_1167).



.
I put this same light on my Eagle before we went out to Baileys Cabin. As luck has it, there was almost no moon. I love this light, it works perfect! It was windy at night and the light did not pick up flying debris. I installed the LED light bulb from the porch light I removed. Very impressed. I might even replace the light on the side.

Jeff

[Overland Hadley]

I put this same light on my Eagle before we went out to Baileys Cabin. As luck has it, there was almost no moon. I love this light, it works perfect! It was windy at night and the light did not pick up flying debris. I installed the LED light bulb from the porch light I removed. Very impressed. I might even replace the light on the side.

Jeff

Great! Glad to hear you have had good luck with this light fixture as well.

It works okay with the FWC wiring? Reading on the site I was confused about wiring it if there is no internal light switch.

Good idea to install it on the side lights as well. Hmmm....

[Overland Hadley]

Still trying to finalize my decision on Finch v Eagle.

Ideally I would get the Finch, as 99% of things on my list pushes me towards the Finch.

But today I measured out the campers and taped the dimensions to my studio floor. Standing inside my tape "campers" and doing a direct comparison I am amazed by how much more space the extra 10" of the Eagle provides.

So while I have made the decision in favor of the Finch multiple times, I am now back on the fence.