My camper ideas, thoughts, and plans... [Archive]

Metcalf

03-21-2007, 06:50 PM

I typed this for another thread and decided to move it over here for some more feedback hopefully....

I am most likely going to use a 1300L Unimog because you can find them in the states already imported and registered. I also like the fact that they are fully mechanical without any engine electronics....

I do like the new U4000 unimogs too...but cost would be a big issue and I don't even think you can get them in the states at all.

I want to build a very lightweight and compact unimog camper. I don't think you see that too often. Most people seem to build a pretty large camper that takes up a good deal of volume. Its far to easy to get overweight on an off-road platform...be it a unimog or a suzuki samurai. You almost always have the space to add too much stuff. I want to keep things pretty simple overall without a lot of fluff....but without having to camp out in the open ( setting up and talking down every day ).

Some of the features I am going to integrate....

-Small overall 'box' size. I don't want the camper to be over the height of the cab of the unimog by much at all, maybe a few inches ( 6 or less ). I will have a small rack on the top of the unimog cab that might be part of a roll cage system. I'm a pretty big fan of a nice clean look though....less is more and all that.

-The camper is hardsided with a triangle shapped section ( side profile ) that raises up with the hinged end at the cab end. This allows for max space over the bed which is raised to create storage under it, and allows for full standing height in the kitchen. The short portion by the cab only contains the mud room ( which is sunken ) and half of the seating area ( seating for 2 that converts into a couch for lounging, or a spare bed for a 3rd person, or to extra counter space for the kitchen ). The moving section of the camper uses brush seals around the base that move with the top. This should help keep out the wind and dust. The top is raised with two long air rams on a balanced circuit. These are also dual action rams so the top can also be held down in the closed position without the need for a lock system ( keeping rattles to a minimum and extra parts out ).

-The bedroom has a full size double bed ( so sheets and stuff work ) that sits against the roof when the top is in the closed position. The bed is at the rear most portion of the camper. This creates maximum space under the bed for storage. Under the bed is space for clothes and personal gear. The bed lifts up on gas struts to allow you to get under it. A full size non-convertable bed was one of the design requirements. I didn't want to have to make up a bed or convert it from something else after a long day on the road. All you have to do is hit the switch to raise the top and jump in the ready made bed.

-The kitchen is in the middle of the camper on the passenger side ( LHD model ) It is very simple overall. It is made up of a 2 burner diesel fired boat stove and a medium sized sink with a hot and cold water tap with a wand style faucet. A cutting board fits over the stove or the sink when you need it. This allows you to go from wash and cut to cut and cook by just moving the board over. There is a small 12V microwave under the stove along with a misc drawer or cupboard. Under the sink is the hot water exchanger and esbar diesel fired water heater. This functions as not only the water heater, but also a truck heater and space heater with a hydronic loop under the floor. The diesel stove can also function as space heater when needed. The fridge is in the middle under a portion of the bed. Since the fridge is in the middle of the camper this should help mimize the distance from the roll axis of the truck and keep things in the fridge a little more stable ( glass jars and such ).

-The dining room is opposite the kitchen and takes up most of the room from the bed to the front of the camper. There will be some storage cupboards in there too, but size will depend on the dining table setup. the dining room is pretty standard with seating for two people ( opposite each other ) with a table in the middle. The dining area also converts in to a couch that faces the center of the camper for lounging by moving the table and some cushions around. The dining area also converts into a spare bed for a 3rd person is the need comes up. We are planning on having a family member or friend ride along with us sometimes. Under the seats are storage bins for misc stuff.

-The mud room/bathroom was mentioned in another post. It is basically a mud room that you walk through to get in the camper. It is in the forward portion on the camper on the passenger side right behind the cab. The area functions as a shower, a mud room, and as a bathroom when the toiled slides out from the wall ( under the sink ). The shower head is recessed in the rear wall. There are also two folding steps in the area to help you walk up into the main camper area. The bathroom was designed like this so you could use it with the top down. The sunken area allow full standing height with the top down. You could even use the bathroom when the truck was moving. This allows a sick person to be sleeping in the back ( on the walkway ) and use the bathroom as needed while driving if need be. This design also keeps the wasted space to a minimum overall, while allowing some privacy when needed for the toilet or shower. You can sill exit the camper if needed through the pass through into the cab.

-The freshwater tank is in the rear under the camper. It is kept above freezing by a heat exchanger run off engine coolant or the diesel esbar heater.

-The greywater tank ( for the sink only ) is in front of the passenger side tire right behind the toilet storage area and basically under the sink. The tank is triangle shapped to keep solids buildup from the sink to a minimum and maximize the usable space in front of the tire. I hope to be able to just gravity drain this without a pump. It is also kept above freezing by a heat exchanger from the truck or the esbar.

-The spare tire is under the bed in the storage space ( laying flat ). It is hooked up to a large drawer slider ( above the tire ) that can lower it to the ground from above using a small winch ( hand power or electric ). A hydraulic bottle jack is stored in the space created by the round shape of the tire. A jack base is in the wheel of the tire. A wheel chock is opposite the jack in the other space created by the wheel. A tire iron and wheel bar stores in the same general area. Hopefully everything needed to change a tire is in the same space. This way you don't have to dig around for everything. I hope I can find room for an impact gun back there too.

I could go on and on and on.....I have been thinking about this for a few years now!!!!

I did a few super quick sketches to show everyone my general idea. As my solidwork model stops changing and gets more finalized I will post more detailed pictures....

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p60/Metcalfphoto/camperrough3.jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p60/Metcalfphoto/camperrough2.jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p60/Metcalfphoto/Camperfloorplan.jpg

Christian P.

03-21-2007, 07:38 PM

great project.

My girlfriend took a picture of this Unimog in BC last summer...belongs to a German couple who was traveling around the world (don't they all do?)

:)

This might be a bit bigger that what you are describing, but still a nice setup.

(p.s: can someone explain to me how to publish a full size picture, not just a smaller thumbnail/attachment)

thanks

Christian

ZooJunkie

03-21-2007, 07:43 PM

I don't like my stove next to my bed. You'll end up smelling your dinner when you are sleeping. :steak:

mountainpete

03-21-2007, 08:05 PM

I don't like my stove next to my bed. You'll end up smelling your dinner when you are sleeping. :steak:

I wholehearted agree with this point. It's also a safety issue. Open flames next to bed sheets are not a good idea. If practical, keep your stove as close to the rear door as possible.

Metcalf

03-21-2007, 08:18 PM

Its a pretty small camper. I don't think your really going to get the stove far enough away to make much of a difference. This camper isn't any bigger than a standard bed on a 1300L unimog. The only real difference is the drop down for the bathroom/mudroom/shower.

Thank you for the suggestion....please keep them coming.

kcowyo

03-21-2007, 08:49 PM

Looks good, nice layout.

I have had no problems with the stove being right next to my bed. I wash my dishes and pots and wipe the stove down well before going to sleep because I'm a little bit of a neat freak and because I camp in bear country often. I do keep the fire extinguisher between them, but the smell and safety thing reads a lot worse on paper/interweb than it actually is.

I'm not big on the sloped pop-up roofs. We had one in a VW camper van as a kid but I prefer being able to walk the entire length of the floor without conking my head. I didn't even like the sloped roof in a barn style house we once lived in, so I'm extra biased. But in a small space every inch of room is precious and you'll want all of the head room you can get especially the first time you're stuck in the camper in the rain.

Scenic WonderRunner

03-21-2007, 09:24 PM

YeeeeeeeeeeeeeHaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Headroom..........!!!!!!!!!!!!

Who Knew>?!!!!!

http://www.expedition-imports.com/Staton/LRTentup%20(Cropped).JPG

......hehe

FusoFG

03-21-2007, 10:13 PM

Some nice ideas.

Don't let the drop down for the shower ruin your departure angle.

Metcalf

03-22-2007, 01:06 AM

I'm happy this thread is getting going...

There are a few reasons for the sloped roof/tilt up top. I really want a hard side insulated camper that can handle cold areas like eastern Russia without having to use tons of fuel to heat it. The hard sided top should also be quieter to sleep in during heavy winds. The triangle roof section allow me to have a pass through to the truck cab even when the top is down, at night, whenever. This makes it really nice for quick stops to get something out of the back or whatever other reasons you can think of. There is a good deal of headroom. The tallest point in the camper is going to be in the 10-11' range ( from floor level when the top is up ). There is going to be a full 6' of headroom most of the standing area in the camper, all except about 18" toward the front.

I think a decent solution to the stove being next to the bed would be to have a folding divider between the two. It could either fold over onto the bed, or over the stove itself ( it could also function as a cutting board and/or a heater top for the stove ).

I am also thinking about moving the spare tire outside. This will free up a good deal of space for storage, allow any spare tire size at a later date, and allow me to change a tire without having to raise the top any. I will most likely use the new space to store two folding mountain bikes or some other kind of secondary transportation.

The fresh water tank will also be moved inside the insulated camper compartment to allow it to be kept above freezing easier. The tank will be under the fridge and towards the stove side. There will be a long storage compartment from the back of the camper towards the front that runs all the way forward up under the rear seat of the dining area/couch/etc.

The departure and breakover angles will remain a good as a stock unimog. The drop down for the shower/entry is no lower than the frame. It is also going to have a slope ( down looking into the entry ) to form the shower pan and to provide a little bit more clearance in the rocker area. The fuel tank on the other side will match.

Metcalf

03-22-2007, 08:21 PM

Does anyone have a blueprint for the bed mounting points on a 1300L unimog? Maybe a pdf factory manual? If I could get something like that, I could make an accurate model of the 1300L rear frame section in solidworks. Without it I'm just roughing it. I would like to make this as accurate as possible so I can get most of the parts for the camper cnc cut.

Shurik

03-22-2007, 08:47 PM

I really want a hard side insulated camper that can handle cold areas like eastern Russia...

Are you really headed there? How much time are you planning to spend in the RFE/Siberia? I've done some trips through there and parts for Unimog are pretty much non-existant and "overnighting" stuff can take a month or more. Unimogs are amazing vehicles, but if your going to be doing a lot of travel in eastern Russia you might consider a different platform.

Just my $.02

Metcalf

03-22-2007, 09:04 PM

Shurik

03-22-2007, 09:13 PM

I am planning on a worldwide trip. So its always going to be hard to get parts somewhere. I can get the 1300L in the states for a decent price. Its not the perfect answer but it should work if the vehicle is taken care of and not abused.

Then you should be fine.
I was wondering if you would be doing more long term (months) exploring of that region in particular.:elkgrin:

Sounds like a blast though!

oonimog

03-24-2007, 03:13 AM

Metcalf,
I'm also building a hard sided, collapsible roof camper on my U1300L37, do you want some company in Russia?

Metcalf

03-24-2007, 06:35 AM

Thats an idea!

How about some more information on the camper your building!

oonimog

03-26-2007, 04:16 AM

I bought the truck specifically to build into a camper, and for that reason, I bought a U1300L37 (additional 45cm wheelbase compared to standard U1300L), with fast axles, and the OM352A. Since buying it, I've put about 50K km on it with a camper built under the tarp, including a couple trips into the Sahara. The truck is awesome but it's time for a real hard-sided camper.

While living in Germany, I met with Unicat, ActionMobil, Langer&Bock, and others to see their products check out prices. Needless to say, they're far from cheap, but I did learn a lot from them. In the meantime, I've spent a few years designing my version. My criteria includes: all weather capability and secure (hence hard-sided), full standing interior height, fixed full size bed, a toilet and shower, self sufficiency, the ability to carry two spare tires, and the ability to carry a dual sport moto, all without compromising the Mog's off road capability. In my mind (sorry as it may be...), compromising on off road ability pretty much removes the point of using a Mog as a base.

Keeping the off road capability means no taller than it already is, a low center of gravity, and as light as possible. This drove the decision to move the roof and use self supporting FRP/foam core walls. You mentioned using SolidWorks as a design tool. I'm also using it so I attached a few images to better show the design. I hope they're useful.

Cheers

OutbacKamper

03-26-2007, 03:04 PM

Blair G

03-26-2007, 03:22 PM

Joaquin Suave

03-26-2007, 03:45 PM

Oonimog...Here is a little Solidworks tip...

You can turn off the origin symbols of the individual parts in an assembly model by going into view then left mouse clicking origins.

Blair...hows it going? Let get together for a beer one of these afternoon!

Metcalf

03-26-2007, 05:35 PM

oonimog,

Thanks for the info and pics! I am very jealous, you seen to be a lot farther along than I am! I am still trying to find a nice clean mog for a fair price. I am thinking along a lot of the same lines as you are as far as the construction of the unimog camper goes. Do you have any pics of your original camper? I would love to read a travellog of your africa trip if you have a website.

I have a few thoughts....

How are you going to get the spare tires out and to the ground? I noticed that you have a small crane built onto the back. Getting the spare tires out from the compartment to the crane might be a little bit of a challenge. Can you get the tires out and use the crane with the top down. I think I have finally decided to move the spare tire to the outside. I know this has some downsides ( theft, CoG considerations, etc ) but I think having the spare tire/wheel in the same position that it will hook to the crane will be a big bonus. Also, I don't want to have to put a muddy, messy, and heavy spare tire back into a compartment. I like everything being really compact...but I don't know.

Do you have a shower in your design? I noticed that you are using a dropped step in like I am. I am going to use folding steps so that I can transform the step in area into a shower. I am also going to have the toilet on the same level as the sunken area. This way I can use the bathroom with the top down and still stand up.

I really like our design. Do you have the mounting dimensions for the bed mount accurate? I would love to have a copy of that solidworks file. I can't find a blueprint of the mog bed mounting to save my life.

I will post up a few solidworks pics when I get a chance. I just upgraded to SW2007 with all the options from 2004 :) It took a little bit to get it all running.

oonimog

03-26-2007, 07:15 PM

oonimog;
What type of lift system do you plan to use for the roof? I am trying to design a smaller version of your camper to fit a flatbed F350 and the lift system is giving me the most problems. I want to avoid a hydraulic system if possible and would also like to avoid a cable system. At the moment I am leaning towards a scissor lift arrangement. Any feedback would be appreciated.

Thanks
Mark

Hi Mark,
I like the scissor lift because it requires fewer actuators so it may be cheaper and lighter, and usually does a good job maintaining alignment between the parts. The downside is the space required, as one side of the scissor has to move a significant distance and the mechanism has to fit somewhere.

Hydraulics aren't a problem for me but I'm still not sure if I will use them for the roof. I've been considering using electrically driven rams, typically used to raise the engine hatch on power boats. They're self contained so installation would be fairly simple and the cost is about the same as a hydraulic cylinder, without the complexity. My only concern is synchronization due to differences in motor speed. The roof could probably take some amount of misalignment but without trying it, I don't know how much is too much.

Blair - Thanks, and you're right, they're not so common.

Joaquin - Thanks for the tip, I'll give it a try.

Metcalf

03-26-2007, 07:33 PM

I'm planning on using a pair of air rams to lift my top. There is already an air sytem on a unimog and most any expedition vehicle. The speed can be adjusted by a simple restrictor fitting and the force by a simple pressure regulator. The valve can be either electric or manual. The rams can also be crosslinked to allow them to raise at the same rate by dividing the load.

I plan on having a simple sectioned tube that will snap around the air ram when in the up position for a safety.

I am also going to use a double action ram so that I can not only raise the top, but also hold it down to keep rattles down and to help the top seals work a little better in the sand.

oonimog

03-26-2007, 07:50 PM

Hi Metcalf,

The picture of the truck is with the original camper under the tarp. If you're asking for pictures of the inside, I can send some to you. Unfortunately, I don't have a proper website but I do have a place where I can post pictures. If you're interested, I can post some pictures but it will take about a month as I'm leaving for another Saharan trip this Wednesday.

Spare tires: What's not shown is the drawer that the tires are mounted to. This allows the tires to slide out under the crane and be picked up directly. I would consider mounting the tires outside but I need to have a place for the moto and inside isn't practical. The crane performs double duty as it's also used for loading the bike. The crane is independant of the roof so is unaffected by the roof's position and both the crane and moto rack both fold flat against the wall when not in use.

The shower will be above the toilet. There will be a grate that folds down to make the bathroom floor level with the rest and allow the stairwell to become a basin for the shower. The height with the roof when down still provides enough room to use the toilet, though peeing like a woman will be easier than standing...

I've already built the camper frame and have test mounted it to the truck so I believe the dims are accurate. I'm not sure they would be helpful to you as with the longer wheelbase, the locations are different.

I'd love to see your work, I look forward to the pictures.

Metcalf

03-26-2007, 11:37 PM

Oonimog,

I'll get a rough solid model up so you can see my basic concept, its starts going really slow when your starting to make everything accurate and dimensionally correct.

How long are you going to be gone on your trip? I dropped you a PM so I could swap e-mails with you. I would love to stay in touch. Its hard to find overland traveling contact from the US.

I totally forgot about you having the longer wheelbase. Do you know off hand if there are any unimog manuals that give accurate frame blueprints/drawings?

On one of my past designs I used a drawer for the spare tire. I was planning to have the drawer over the top of the tire with a small winch ( manual or electric ) so that I didn't need an extra crane. I think it all became a little bit too complicated a design.

I am giving up having a motorbike for two folding mountain bikes that will store about where your spare tires do. I think a bike or two will be nice for the cities and denser populated areas so I don't have to drive the mog around all the time.

How wide are you building your camper? I am shooting or under 2300mm. I think this is about right without it being too big.

I did find a nice way to help seal the camper. I am going to use brush seals to help seal the moving top. They are easy to find. Run one on the inside section and one on the moving section for a double seal. This should also help keep the moving top from shifting at all and gouging the sides of the camper. My top will also have a rubber seal for when the top is down to help keep out the dust.

Are you going to have a pass through to the cab of the 'mog? That is one of the main reasons why I decided on the triangle pop up. That way I can run a full size pass through to the cab. When its cold and windy the girlfriend and I won't have to go outside at all. Just hit a switch and crawl in back. I think that is going to be nice for long days on the road in bad weather.

Take care....

oonimog

03-27-2007, 02:49 AM

Hi Metcalf,
I know what you mean about the time it takes for the details, if I told you how much design time I've invested in my camper, you wouldn't believe me. Combine that with the research online, trips to trade shows, supplier visits and phone calls, and on, and on, and on... Why am I doing this again...?

I'll be away for three weeks. Hopefully, I'll have email access in some places but it will depend on cell coverage. During past trips, I was surprised at the coverage in areas that I never thought it would be possible.

I have the complete Mog manual set and I can look to see what drawings are available. If there's nothing there, a good friend of mine works for an MB dealership selling Mogs in Germany and he may be able to help.

Why did you give up on the hanging spare tire concept? I need a hoist for the moto, as well as two spares so the hanging concept won't work for me but I really like the idea. My pickup uses the exact same thing and it works very well.

I started out at exactly the same width as you but have shaved it down to ~ 225cm. I did this so it would match the width of the truck. In fact, when I first bought the Mog, the bed was much wider than it is today. I cut the sides off and narrowed it to 225cm so it would fit into a high cube shipping container. Even so, the bed rubbed against the container wall but the damage was very minor and was probably not really due to the width.

The jury is still out in regard to a pass-through. I used to think this was very important to me but I'm not so sure any more. Maybe my biggest reservation is that I'm not sure I'll have the heart to chop up the cab. My truck has the ag cab, that has a much larger rear window, so this may allow me to use the window openning and not cut anything. It's not high on the priority list at this point.

I recieved your PM, check your email for a reply.

Cheers

CornDog

03-27-2007, 03:12 AM

I don't know if it would help much, but I was doing some reading on another buildup of a Mog 1300L by this guy in the UK. He says he did all the planning with some CAD program so that would probably have the dimensions as well. I've e-mailed and asked him questions before and he seems a OK guy. If you asked, I'm sure he'd share his drawings/dimensions with you.
good luck!

http://www.unimog.org.uk/
just click the "converted into a campervan" link.

:26_7_2:

oonimog

03-27-2007, 07:28 PM

Metcalf,
I checked the Mog manuals last night and found drawings that show details of the frame but nothing for the pritche/body mounting details. Such drawings must exist for manufacturers that build Unimog bodies so I'll ask when I'm in Germany on Thursday.

Metcalf

03-27-2007, 07:55 PM

Thanks Oonimog. I got your e-mail last night and will fire one off when I have something good to say! Keep in touch on the trip if you have a chance. Are you taking your existing soft top 'mog?

I'm working on some solidworks stuff today and tonight. I should be able to get a rough model of what my concept looks like. Then I will start in on the final plans. the aluminum framework for the camper and top is going to be pretty neat....

Have a safe trip! Take lots of pictures!

Metcalf

03-28-2007, 05:11 AM

Well I finally got the chance to make a rough solid model of my camper idea. This is to scale also.....

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p60/Metcalfphoto/textroughcamper.jpg

If you have questions or ideas please ask. I will be working more and more on this concept in the days to come. This isn't going to be a short project. There are a lot of details not shown yet ( coming soon ) but you should be able to get the idea....

Metcalf

03-28-2007, 05:25 AM

Here it is from the side with the top up and down....

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p60/Metcalfphoto/topdownsideprofile.jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p60/Metcalfphoto/topupsideprofile.jpg

As you can see there is great headroom over most of the walking floor. The person in the pictures is 6' tall. I should be able to work over the entire kitchen area without having to duck at all. I think as long as you step left a little bit after coming up from the bathroom you should have full head height. This design also lets me have full sitting height ( an then some ) in the bed area, while allowing a good deal of room under the bed for storage and the refrigerator. I will have the fresh water tank, a long storage compartment that runs up under one of the dining room seats, and storage for two folding mountain bikes in cases.

Most everything in the kitchen and dining area will be able to be used with the top down if needed. The table converts into a bed for use on the road if someone is sick. The bathroom is fully operational with the top down also. You can crawl back into the bathroom while on the move if needed.

This design is coming along...and there will be much more to see....

Ideas and suggestions are welcome...

Grim Reaper

03-28-2007, 11:52 AM

I really like that design. The sunken entry is a great idea. Have you though about putting the bed on a hinged lid so you can access the storage compartment from inside if you need something?

Metcalf

03-28-2007, 08:09 PM

Thanks for the complement. I think the sunken bathroom idea make a lot of sense. There are some unicats that do the same things, so I can't be that far off. The only downside is that the shower can't really drain into a wastewater tank....you have to pump it into it, or go with just a simple bucket/hose system to let the water drain. The toilet is self contained and will not be an issue. The sinks gray water does flow into a tank ( not shown yet )

I like your raising bed idea. I am still trying to figure out how to make this happen easily, a full bed with sheets and blankets won't be light. Maybe I can have some kind of pulley system or gas strut to help lift it. Most of the storage under the bed is 'outside' gear storage. This includes things like folding chairs, gas cans, spare parts, and so on. This should keep the need to access these parts to a minimum. There will be a drawer system on the right of the refrigerator ( when facing it ) That will mainly function as storage for clothes. These will be very deep drawers. I hope I can design a seat back system that allows all this to be fairly hidden and seamless.

One of my main concerns is storage. I just don't think you can ever have enough! I am having to plan around a lot of different factors to make best use of all the space in the camper. I wish there was more space, but it just makes everything bigger and heavier to make the camper any larger. I would use the longer L37 unimog if I could locate one in the US but I am not holding my breath.

Metcalf

03-29-2007, 10:33 PM

CornDog

03-29-2007, 11:49 PM

This is more a measurement question than anything else, but...
When you pull the toilet out in the depressed area, how much room is there around it? Basicly, when using it, is there enough room around it to sit/stand?

Metcalf

03-30-2007, 12:18 AM

I think so. I'm a pretty average sized guy (5'11", 180lbs). I did a mock up of the space provided. Will it be super comfortable...not really. It is an inside, out of the weather, private toilet however. The thetford toilet doesn't have to slide out all the way either, just enough to get the lid up.

I have a few tricks up my sleeve. I could taper the cabinet above the toilet a little bit to provide some more room if needed, but this cabinet area is used for plumbing/hot water. I could also have the lid removable on the toilet so you wouldn't have to pull it out as far.

I think the turtle expedition has the same basic system in there turtle V. I think they sit with there feet to the inside/center of the camper however??

http://turtleexpedition.com/images/17T5_WC.jpg

Blair G

03-30-2007, 01:07 AM

I wanted to show everyone what the my camper concept would look like on a unimog. This is pretty close to scale. I will have to get unimog blueprints or CAD files to get anything much better. Or heaven forbid...buy a unimog and build it!!

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p60/Metcalfphoto/tan.jpg

I think this shows the concept a little better than just a solid model picture. The main goal for me was to have a smaller, lighter camper for a unimog chassis. I want to be able to ship it in a container without a lot of fuss. I think the triangle pop up system allows the roof line to be VERY low overall while keeping a lot of the other features I wanted intact like a hard pop up, pass through to cab, etc.

Thoughts and comments?

Hi,
I have been following this thread since building a camper is something I wanted to do.Now that my family has increased (X2) the the 1300 is to small and needs to be sold. The other option is to extend the cab or build a box that accommodates seating for people on a permanent basis. Having these options I have decided to sell the truck and get something else.
Some of the things that I have figured out by experience or conversations with people who have done it.
-Unimog cabs are fairly small for tall people. While they are far suppior to the round cabs in terms of comfort, they lack any real storage or mounting points for electronics. The control linkage in the middle of the cab and the fact the cab tilts forces you to design to accommodate this. Overhead consoles seem to be great solution but can be a pain in the *** when it comes to running wires. You will not have much adjustment in reclining the seats. My wife had hard times trying to take a nap while driving. Sounds stupid but it is a comfort thing. This leads to a pass through. Do it or don't do it? I am a fan of the passthrough of some sort. ideally it would something you could access while moving but the large opening of an Ag cab window would suffice. Beiing able to get to the cab from the back has been possibly a life saving addition. Sealing the passthrough is a pain in the *** due to the articulation of the chassis and cab.
Unimog cabs are loud and hot. You will have to make allowances for both.
-Coordinations of electrons. Most 1300's are 24v. Of course with Unimogs ther are always exceptions. In my opinion staying with 24v is the smart way to go. Converters are available to convert anything that is needed to be converted. Lights,pumps, and everything for a camper comes in 24v so it really is no big deal. Most people have gone to solar for recharging and aay from batteries. I still think a small honda genset would be a great backup if you are in the middle of now where and need to charge our power something. Batteries are bulky and heavy and need to have decent access. Figure out what your requirements are and then figure your system out. Use LED's and florls when you can.
- Unimog things are really heavy. Tires are real heavy. Having had to change Unimog tires you realize how heavy they are. Changing tires off road and in the dirt adds a whole other challange and about 150lbs to the process. Location and access to spares should be as easy and stupid proff as possible.
- Diesel stoves are made for boats at sea level. They work poorly on things at altitude unless they are calibrated. Diesel heaters are awesome and a great addition to the chassis as well as the living box.
- Never install things in the living box that you can't remove from the front door.
- You will rarely crap or shower in your designed bathroom. Provide an outside shower area.
-The hydraulics in my Alaskan are nearly 30 years old and work perfect. I am a big fan of raising roofs on campers. The 2 issues are the raising system and the sealing system. Simple, simple and simple is the key. Probably avoid the desire to hide this system as maintance will be necessary.Alaskans are made of beautiful brass that can be polished and shown off.
- Have access to the roof for storage and maintenance.
- Be able to isolate systems in case of damage or problems. 2 fuel tanks, Cole hearcy (sp) to either combine or shut off batteries depending on whats going on
- Go buy Campervans and Tom Shepards (who drives a G-wagon)Overland Bible.
- The 1300 's air system is a work of art.

I am sure there is more but I am tired of typing. :smiley_drive:

Blair

Metcalf

03-30-2007, 05:28 PM

Blair,

Please rest up and write some more!

I am going to have a pass through for sure. I like the idea of being able to get to the front and back quickly without having to go outside. My compainion insists on having room to take her nap! I think being able to lay on the rear floor rigth behind the cab will be nice for the days your not feeling too hot and having a bathroom nearby will be another bonus.

I have been looking into soundproofing the unimog cab. I know they have a reputation as being loud and hot.

I am definatly going to make everything I can 24V. I found a lot of places in europe that sell 24V stuff so its not too big a deal. I don't anything that has to run off an inverter all the time. I will install a small one just to have some flexability. I am more worried about being able to plug in to different sources of power around the globe. I know most areas don't have any hook ups, but having the ability would be nice. We are most likely going to have some extended stays in some areas for some volunteer work. I am going to have most of the roof covered in solar panels. With the pop up and the nose pointed south I should have some decent output. I am going to try and keep the batteries to a minimum. The only big load in the camper should be the fridge. I hope that I can come up with a good unit that doesn't use much power. I have my eye on some of the Norcold units. Does anyone know of any other good options?

In another life I was an engine captain of a type 4 fire engine for the BLM. These are about unimog sized. I know all about everything being heavy. I also changed comercial sized tires on trucks, skidders, and tractors way back when. I am kinda torn on what tires to run on the unimog, I have no idea what the most common sizes are going to be all over the world. The spare tire will be on the back of the camper on the popup, it will have a small hand winch ( or electric winch ) to lower it to the ground.

I have heard about the diesel stoves from other people too. Does anyone know what modifications are made to make them work well at higher elevations?

I definatly plan on having a small diesel fired coolant heater on the truck. I hope to integrate it to provide hot water, space heating, and engine pre-warming when needed. I plan on spending some time in the cold.

Never install things in the living box that you can't remove from the front door

I might have a few things like the fridge and bed that are not going to fit out the front door too easy. If all else fails I could always disconnect the top struts and lift the top manually over the edge to get at everything inside. Everything else should be ok. I think its going to be nice to build the camper without the top on....much more room to get inside and work.

The inside toilet and shower will get used in the colder more deserted areas. I hope that I won't have to use them all the time! They may be there, but they are not full size for sure! I would like to do something for an outside shower. Where would be the best area to have it...next to the door?out back?

I am still trying to decide what to do about the top raising system. I don't want it to be really hidden, but I don't want it to be out where everything like sheets, fiingers, and toes can get caught in it. Do you have any pictures of your alaskan top system?

I plan on having a small roof rack on the top of the unimog cab. It will be something very low profile and simple.....NOT a huge expedition rack. I am planning on having a roof hatch from the camper to the top and maybe a folding step system on the front edge of the camper shell.

- Be able to isolate systems in case of damage or problems. 2 fuel tanks, Cole hearcy (sp) to either combine or shut off batteries depending on whats going on

I am trying to build in some redundancy without adding a ton of weight. Its too easy to just keep adding and adding and adding....

- Go buy Campervans and Tom Shepards (who drives a G-wagon)Overland Bible.

Both are on my list.....'Vehicle dependent expedition guide' by shepard is hard to find!

Thanks for the feedback....

FusoFG

03-30-2007, 11:44 PM

I have my eye on some of the Norcold units. Does anyone know of any other good options?

I have an Indel marine top loader. Front Loader spills all the cold air when the door is opened. Top loader is easier on batteries. Indel avail in US but made in Europe so might have good service abroad.

I have heard about the diesel stoves from other people too. Does anyone know what modifications are made to make them work well at higher elevations?

I definatly plan on having a small diesel fired coolant heater on the truck. I hope to integrate it to provide hot water, space heating, and engine pre-warming when needed. I plan on spending some time in the cold.

I have a Wallas diesel stove and it has worked well up 12,000 ft so far even though they claim sea level.

Just start it on low instead of high as the manual says - high is too rich for starting in thin air. There is adjustment for fuel metering but I haven't found any instructions. Trial and error with an infrared thermometer might help.

There is a stove cover available that provides a forced air heat that might be an alternative to the hydronic heat.

Espar claims the diesel coolant heater has an altitude limitation but mine has worked well to 12,000 ft. There was a rumor that they used to provide instructions to adjust the fuel delivery but I haven't found any.

Mine is hooked up to the engine, 2 heater matrixes in the camper and the heat exchanger in the Indel marine hot water heater. That way either the engine or the espar can heat the camper, hot water or engine block.

I would like to do something for an outside shower. Where would be the best area to have it...next to the door?out back?

Near the same location as the interior shower to simplify plumbing

I am trying to build in some redundancy without adding a ton of weight. Its too easy to just keep adding and adding and adding....

Redundancy shouldn't add weight. What ever capacity battery, fuel, etc that you end up with just achieve it with 2 smaller units that add up to your desired capacity. If you need 200 amp hrs of battery - get 2 100 amp hr batteries, etc. Want 60 gals of diesel - get 2 30 gal tanks and keep the plumbing separate

Metcalf

03-31-2007, 10:46 PM

FusoFG,

Thanks or the input, I really apprieciate all the help and suggestions everyone is taking the time to write....

I have an Indel marine top loader. Front Loader spills all the cold air when the door is opened. Top loader is easier on batteries. Indel avail in USbut made in Europe so might have good service abroad.

That is a good idea. I looked at the Indel products website. They are very nice. I don't know where I would install a top loading fridge? I could have one in one of the seat/benches that forms the dining area. The real problem with the top loader is functional space. Do you have any pics of your install Fuso?

There is a stove cover available that provides a forced air heat that might be an alternative to the hydronic heat.

I saw that. The only thing I don't like about it is that the lid temps might be a little high. I would be worried about bumping into it and people burning themselves. Its is an option however....

Mine is hooked up to the engine, 2 heater matrixes in the camper and the heat exchanger in the Indel marine hot water heater. That way either the engine or the espar can heat the camper, hot water or engine block.

This is what I want mine to do. I think I am going to use a heated floor and/or towel rack to heat the inside of the camper. The less moving parts the better. I think with one pump and a thermostat valve I could create a heating system in the floor. I don't know for sure though. I am quickly running out of space in the camper. Things get tight really fast!

Near the same location as the interior shower to simplify plumbing

What about just having an extra long hose on the inside shower that would reach outside the main door?

Metcalf

04-05-2007, 01:48 AM

Just a quick update. After working through the design for a little while I decided to start on an alternate version. It uses a different layout, but the same triangle pop up. It is going to be designed to fit on a L37 unimog with the longer 3700mm wheelbase. This one is going to be a bit different with a loft style bed, rear seating, and much more interior storage. I should have a concept rendering in a few days. Its basically turning into a transformer kind of thing. I am trying to use most all of the space inside the collapsed camper while having the most open area when the top is up. It should be different...

Blair G

04-05-2007, 08:09 PM

Metcalf

04-05-2007, 08:50 PM

Blair G

04-05-2007, 10:04 PM

I am most likely going to have one custom re-built in Europe and imported ( I hope! ). I know the l37s are rare....hell...it seems like the regular 1300s are rare enough in the states!

If you had a 1300 I have to wonder how hard it would be to modify the frame or buy a new one, then swap everything over. I don't think the difference more than the frame, torque tube, and rear driveshaft.

If you are truely interested in a long wheel base I would buy a 1700 ir a 1550 l38 and be done with it. Anything else is a waste of time and money. I would never think about doing it to mine but i believe Unimog offered a factory approved kit to do it.

Blair

Metcalf

04-05-2007, 11:57 PM

I don't need that much mog.

I do want some other hard to find options so I don't think it will be that much difference. You never know what is going to come along. I am keeping an eye on ebay germany as much as I can. I think the 3850mm wheelbase is a little long, the 3250mm is a little short. The 3700mm seems to work out about perfect when trying to fit everything thing in. I would also like this camper to fit in a standard 20ft container too. The bigger mogs make this even more challenging. I think with a set of container wheels (and maybe an air suspension :D ) I could fit an l37 or regular 1300 in a standard height container. For me this is a big bonus. I am going to be shipping over the ocean at least 3 major times.

They offered a kit to do what? Long wheelbase?

Blair G

04-06-2007, 12:38 AM

Metcalf

04-06-2007, 01:11 AM

I'm not the biggest fan of rear overhang. I would rather keep it short. Keeping the weight in between the wheels has worked best over the years for me. This seems to add up to a lot less 'active' chassis off-road. Keeping the weight centralized as much as possible and keeping the center of mass rather compact is only going to help things. In my newer designs I am going to try and move all the large weights ( spare tire, water and fuel tanks, batteries ) forward in the chassis as much as possible.

I don't know how much difference all this is really going to make. I am going from a background extreme trail type 4wheeling to an expedition setting. I have quite a bit of heavy vehicle off-road driving experience from a past life. Now I am a student of engineering and design.

I'm not saying that what is being done now doesn't work in the expedition community, but I think there is room for improvement.

Joaquin Suave

04-06-2007, 04:49 PM

Here are a couple of thoughts I have on your project.

Whatever box you make on a U1300 is going to small reguardless of wheather it has a streached frame or you have a reasonable overhang or not. That being said...I think your design is VERY wastefull of good living space.

I've had the oppertunity to go inside and examine what I believe the trickest U1300 Expedition vehicle out there. Here is a picture of it.

http://www.members.shaw.ca/barbspl/miragemog.jpg

You will see by the picture that there is no way it would fit into a shipping container! AND the living space is still VERY small!

Remember the true goal of an expedition vehicle to LIVE COMFORTABLY from a vehicle in extreme conditions for extended periods of time. So why sacrifice good living space for things like tires and bicycles? 395/85 R20's are F*cken heavy huge, bolt them / lock them to the back of your truck, nobody going to steel them. Have you ever ridden a folding mt. bike? 99.8% SUCK! Get a Real mt. bike or 2, take off the front tires only, then cable lock them to the roof rack over your cab. Cover them with a tarp and no one will know they are there. They (and your other toys) are the perfect candidates for your cab rack...Bulky low mass.

Regarding you triangle roof system. I wouldn't do it! here are a couple of thoughts why...

Make sure you can sleep/ camp confortably for several days with it closed. Say your forced to camp in a big city (any city), getting your papers squared away, needing repair, waiting for parts, shopping & so on. If your lucky you'll find some quiet neighborhood to camp, but more likely you won't. With a non-"pop top", one can "camp stealth" simply by putting up blackout curtains. With a pop-top your shouting....HEY WE'RE HOME!!!!!

If you can't live without doing a pop-top, then don't reinvent the wheel! Find a used Alaskan camper and gut the lift system out of it, then lift the whole box so that you get the most out of your "top-top" buck.

My guess is that you will spend more time and money doing your poptop than the difference between shipping in an ISO can and RoRo.

You would be wise to mock your cabin space out of plywood in your backyard the spend a 3 day weekend in it with your girly. that's right! spend the WHOLE weekend in that box, so you can feel what it would be like when your trapped inside due to MAX storm conditions. Debi and I endured a week in Casa Azul a couple of years ago and HUGE Casa started to feel VERY SMALL. I think it would be a shame for you to put your partners confort before your engineering requirements.

I just thought that I should share a little. Not that you'd take my advice...no one else does.

Metcalf

04-06-2007, 05:33 PM

Joaquin,

I really do appreciate your comments and suggestions. I really do like the feedback....

I know the box is going to be small. The good thing is that I am changing from tents and the back of pickups to a unimog! I think the camper is going to be pretty spacious :D

I think my design is a compromise between storage space and living space. You have to take stuff with you as well as having a place to sleep, eat, shower, and well...you know. I'm worried about not having enough space for everything more than I am worried about having enough living space. I don't want to have stuff bolted all over the camper box. You have to bolt it down, the weight is all over the place, and everything is scattered about. I have a bit of OCD when it comes to things being very simple while being clean in design and function. I want everything to have its place. If I just wanted a ton of living area I would get one of these...

http://www.unicat.net/img/UXL17HD.2-560.jpg

http://www.unicat.net/img/UXL17HD.3-560.jpg

I want a SMALLer expedition unimog. I'm thinking more along the lines of a light unimog instead of a heavy landrover. I want to keep the size convservative so that I can get places the bigger campers can't usually go.

I do think you have a point about the stealth camping. I don't think any kind of expedition camper is going to be stealthy. You might black out the windows, but your still going to get pepole stopping by. Hell, I know if I saw a unimog camper...any unimog for that mattter...I would poke around it.

I am a little bit worried about the pop up as far as height goes. I could see some instances when it might be a little harder to find a place to pop the top. With tight spots, trees overhead, etc....

I think the bikes are a great form of secondary transportation. I have done a bit of research. The bikes from http://www.montagueco.com have had really good reviews and stand up to real use. I want to have something to ride to get around, have a little fun, and stay in shape. You can even get a nice case for these bikes to fit in....

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/montagueusa/mxblueopenmed.gif

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/montagueusa/case.jpg

I dont' have much faith in RoRo. It seems that everything I read mentions problems with theft, dings, having to remove everything from the cab, locking the camper up like a safe, dents, missing gear, problems with salt spray, etc. I REALLY want to be able to use an ISO container.

Yes, the pop up style camper will cost more to build. Its a challenge also, and that is one of the reasons why I am doing this project. I want to build it not just buy it.....

Metcalf

04-06-2007, 05:49 PM

I'm pretty sure that this is the website of the people that own the 1300L camper that Joaquin posted a picture of....

http://www.members.shaw.ca/barbspl/index.htm

From this picture....

http://www.members.shaw.ca/barbspl/mogold02.jpg

The layout of the camper looks very similar to my first design. Fixed bed in the rear with storage under, table for two on one side of the isle, and the kitchen on the other. I don't know about a bathroom. The only realy difference to me is the fixed top vs my pop-top system.

Wait to you guys see my new design. I don't know if its a good thing or now, but when the top is down most all the space is used for storage ( but you can still get at most everything ). Then after the top is up you have full use of the living space. You could live in it with the top down and have room to sleep, use the bathroom, get to the fridge, but the standing height would not be there. I don't know if this would be a good thing or not?

There has been a very good point raised about being able to live in the camper without the top being up.....debates anyone...

Metcalf

04-06-2007, 05:54 PM

I knew I saw a unimog with a triangle pop-up somewhere....

http://www.xor.org.uk/unimog/graphics/03070502.jpg

Its a super small pic but its from this site...lots of of unimog campers....

http://www.xor.org.uk/unimog/campermog.htm

Does anyone have any more info on this unimog camper? Owners info?

Metcalf

04-06-2007, 06:08 PM

I found a slightly better version of the picture at...

http://www.desert-aventure.com

http://www.desert-aventure.com/images/03070502.jpg

Robthebrit

05-09-2007, 06:15 AM

I would ditch the sloping roof, its just more to go wrong and if it gets stuck down your camper is going to be very uncomfortable. If you insist on it make it mechanical or manual.

I would make a folding bed, in your drawings the bed takes a lot of room and you don't use it most of the time. My camper has an ingenious queensized fold up bed. It only takes about 18 inches of cabin space when its folded up, when its down it covers the table and a bench but the remainder of the camper such as the storage units, kitchen and bathroom are still available.

Rob

Metcalf

05-09-2007, 07:25 AM

Spikepretorius

05-09-2007, 10:58 AM

Hi. I'm a newbie here.

What sort of price range would you guys budget for a Unimog camper like that in the States?
There's a fully restored and kitted out camper for sale here in South Africa. They did the trip from London to SA then didn't know what to do with it afterwards. It's in storage here till they either sell it or return one day. The asking price is ZAR200k negotiable. Off the top of my head that's about US$26k

Joaquin Suave

05-09-2007, 02:46 PM

I've heard that South Africa is a GREAT place to buy expedition rig because of people not having the desire to drive back home.

Sprike, can you post some pictures?

Blair G

05-09-2007, 03:57 PM

I really think that to have a lower profile camper box that will allow the unimog to fit in a container ( even with container wheels ) the top is going to have to raise and lower in some fashion. I can either have a triangle pop-up like I designed above, or I can make a full box type pop up like the unicats and others. I have been working on both designs.

In general the camper would not be very functional with the top down. This is going to have to be a compromise of some kind any way you look at it. The only way around this is to have a fixed room and accept an overall larger size. I don't think that I am willing to do that. I want to retain the lower overall size to keep transport costs down and allow the camper to fit more places. I think height is just as important as width in this regard.

I do think in any camper that you will spend a considerable portion of the time spent inside the camper in the bed. Personally I want a ready made bed that I can jump right in without having to convert anything. This is a personal choice for us. I just think after a long day on the road it would be nice to be able to just plop down in bed with little fuss. I would also like to be able to use the seating area while using the bed. This way when someone isn't feeling the best, maybe with a touch of a cold or flu, they can stay in bed while the other parts of the camper remain useful. You can cook, use the bathroom, or use the computer at the table.

Essentially I am looking at designing the camper so that when the top is down as much of the volume inside the camper is used for storage and features ( refrigerator, cabinets, sink, etc ). It would be nice to be able to retain the use of most of the features when the top is down, but I don't know how much this will happen. When the camper is in the up position the added volume can be used for living space. This will provide room to sleep, stand, and sit at the table.

The raising top will not be as reliable as a fixed top camper. This is true no matter what. There are more moving parts. I am accepting that it will not be as simple and reliable. If built well with quality parts and as simple a system as possible it should not be an issue. The tops on Alaskan campers raise and lower. Friend of mine have one that is at least 20 years old and they use it extensively on and off road with no issues.

Right now I am looking designing a full stroke roof camper. Its just another idea to think about. There will be more volume to work with, but the complexity goes up. The main door and pass through to the cab become much more complicated to design. Ideally I want everything, including the spare tire, to fit inside a 3700mm long by 2250mm wide box that is only a little bit above the height of the roof of the unimog.

Here is one design I came up with....though I think its a little too complex to seal from the weather effectively.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p60/Metcalfphoto/newconcept.jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p60/Metcalfphoto/topup.jpg

Here is a short animation of the camper lowering....

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p60/Metcalfphoto/th_newconceptcamper.jpg (http://s125.photobucket.com/albums/p60/Metcalfphoto/?action=view&current=newconceptcamper.flv)

As soon as I get more time I will post up some other ideas and thoughts...

Like I said before, I am a big fan of the raising roof. Since I think I have decided to keep the 1300 (SBU DOKA prices are steep and the dollar is weak) I will build a truck using what I have. I do think that having a camper that is not really usable in the stowed position is a mistake. Wheather or not you have a ready made bed is a personal decision, having said that and having a 1300 with a camper, I would lean towards having a seperate benchs that convert into a single bed. This would allow the benches to be used as bunks or combined to make one big bed. Not really all that sexy but functional. I have spent time in a couple of different Unicats. Both based on the 2450 and each having a different bed setup. One has separate bunks, with storage underneath. The the friends have a slide out that converts in to a bed when they want it to be. However both have the option of being used with out having to do much. Evan Richard's camper with the slideout can have the bed made with out slideing out the extension.
Also, on the design above you have eliminated the fuel tank location and the stock battery location. While the batteries can be moved else where for the chassis, fuel needs to be accounted for. Before you go to much further I would suggest you actually buy a chassis or at least find one in person so that you can take pictures of the things you have to design around. Your current design also interferes with the chassis and the mounting of the bed on the rear.
Also, while I understand the shipping issue. I really would not obsess over it. It will only occupy a small portion of your time while driving. It can be overcome by shipping in a Hicube container. It may cost a little more but you would not have to limit your design based on a small portion of travel.
Blair

Spikepretorius

05-09-2007, 04:00 PM

It was posted on my "home" forum a while back. I'll do a search and get back to you.

stevenmd

05-09-2007, 04:12 PM

Wow, all great ideas. Has anyone ever seen a setup that can accommodate a family of 6? We have 4 kids and really love the idea of taking a vehicle like this and travel instead of taking the kids to Disneyland every year. Give them something unique to remember about their childhood.

Spikepretorius

05-09-2007, 04:31 PM

Here's the url of the owners:
http://www.tiretracks.org/mogforsale/

If needed I can put you in touch with the guy in SA who is looking after it for them. He's not affiliated to them. He just offered to store it for them when they made enquiries on our local forum.

I'm pretty sure that price is very negotiable because locals don't have that kind of money to buy it.

Robthebrit

05-09-2007, 04:39 PM

Like I said before, I am a big fan of the raising roof. Since I think I have decided to keep the 1300 (SBU DOKA prices are steep and the dollar is weak) I will build a truck using what I have. I do think that having a camper that is not really usable in the stowed position is a mistake. Wheather or not you have a ready made bed is a personal decision, having said that and having a 1300 with a camper, I would lean towards having a seperate benchs that convert into a single bed. This would allow the benches to be used as bunks or combined to make one big bed. Not really all that sexy but functional. I have spent time in a couple of different Unicats. Both based on the 2450 and each having a different bed setup. One has separate bunks, with storage underneath. The the friends have a slide out that converts in to a bed when they want it to be. However both have the option of being used with out having to do much. Evan Richard's camper with the slideout can have the bed made with out slideing out the extension.
Also, on the design above you have eliminated the fuel tank location and the stock battery location. While the batteries can be moved else where for the chassis, fuel needs to be accounted for. Before you go to much further I would suggest you actually buy a chassis or at least find one in person so that you can take pictures of the things you have to design around. Your current design also interferes with the chassis and the mounting of the bed on the rear.
Also, while I understand the shipping issue. I really would not obsess over it. It will only occupy a small portion of your time while driving. It can be overcome by shipping in a Hicube container. It may cost a little more but you would not have to limit your design based on a small portion of travel.
Blair

I agree with Blair, what are the plans for fuel? I am guessing you'll get around 10mpg on or off road so you should be looking at 100 gallons or more. Trucks this big cannot assume you can refuel at the next stop as they may not have enough to give you, you have to be able to drive to the next place.

The startng batteries for a mog are 8D's, you have two of them if its 24v. Finding a location for them is difficult because you need easy access and you need to be able to lift 150+ pounds otherwise you cannot get then out. While you probably don't need batteries this big you do need something that can source 1000+ amps. I wouldn't want to have to rely on a couple of Optima's to start a mog in the middle of the arctic.

I don't agree with you on the bed, you camper is not useable at all without the roof raised so you can't get straight into bed. My bed takes literally 10 seconds to unfold and you can unfold it half way into a couch too. I can also drive with the bed in any position and while driving its fully useable so one person can sleep while one drives which is awesome for long stretches.

You may also want to think about cross ventilation while stationary any while moving, maybe the sides of your popup roof are removable? When driving simply an open window or roof hatch will suffice. You want hatches t be on the roof to let the hot air out. Yesterday it was 38C at my house and it was 46C in the closed box, as soon as I opened the roof with the door open the temperature dropped in seconds.

Rob

Metcalf

05-10-2007, 02:23 AM

I want to thank everyone for there input, ideas, thoughts and comments! This is turning into a really good thread with a broad base of opinions and ideas.

Onto the questions...

The fuel tank will be moved to the drivers side. With a rough model of it done the capacity will be over 100 us gallons. I think it was around 134 last time I figured it up. It will be attached to the frame, not the camper box. There will not be a step down in the camper on the drivers side. There will be space above the fuel tank, between the tank and camper body, to allow for the camper to twist and move on the chassis without hitting each other. I have also been thinking about having the mounts for the sand ladders or waffles on top of the tank to limit the height you have to lift them to the storage position.

In my original design with the triangle pop up you could sit in the seating with the top down, and also convert it into a bed for road travel with the top down. In some of my new designs I have retained the center isle from the pass through to about 6-foot back so that this area can be used as a 'road bed'

Personally I want the overall box size of the camper to be pretty conservative. I think Oonimog has about the right idea on his L37. He posted in the beginning of the thread and I hope he post again! He has traveled a lot with his unimog and has found the rear box size to be a good compromise. Please go back and look at his pics and ideas. My camper will be very similar in size to his existing canvas covered box.....

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p60/Metcalfphoto/alaska.jpg

Something like this would be cool.....

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p60/Metcalfphoto/landb001.jpg

The bed. I think having a road bed is a good idea. I don't think that this has to be the same sleeping system as the others. I think having a center isle that could be used as a bed right behind the pass through to the cab would be a good compromise. I don't care how good of designer you are, you are going to have to compromise somewhere. We would also like to have the ability to have a bed and seating for a 3rd person. Idealy this would be friends or family members that would come for a visit and ride along for a week or so. The camper will mainly be built for two, but an optional 3rd would be very nice. I think a 4th person is pretty much out of the question with a standard cab Unimog.

I have been looking at some creative locations for the main starting batteries. I think they might fit in between the torque tube and frame rail. I hope I don't have to get to them that often in that location. I could wire up a remote plug for jumping and charging. Space is tight no matter what. I don't plan on running a pto to the rear so the space will be fairly free.

There will be windows, hatches and a skylight to provide ventilation. I just haven't bothered to put them into the designs yet. Things are still moving around too much. I think I may end up building my own windows since they will need to be fairly flush with the inside of the pop up. With them flush I can minimize the sealing distance. I hope this will allow me to use a off the shelf brush seal for the moving top. Once will be on the bottom and one on the moving top. This will provide dual seals to keep dust and bugs out. I may even look into using one rubber wiper seal and one brush seal.

Did I get everything?

oonimog

05-10-2007, 08:13 AM

Hey there Metcalf,
A new camper design, it seems you've been busy while I was away! Did you get my last PM? Looks like there is some good discussion flying around so I guess I'll toss my 2 cents in.

Sloping roof or otherwise, for me, a low traveling profile is a necessity, not an option. Combine that with my desire to have full standing height while camping and you're not left with much choice but to move the roof. The ability to stuff the truck into a container certainly offers a lot of peace of mind over ro-ro. Of even greater importance, to me at least, is in maintaining the whole reason for choosing a Mog to begin with, it's awesome off road capability. As I think I've mentioned before, a big tall box pretty much kills the benefits that MB designed into the truck. I'm certainly not unique in having driven a Mog through some tough stuff and I can tell you that a big box would never have allowed this.

Most of the forest roads/trails in BC are through dense forest where clearance is a constant concern and my limb risers get a real workout (first picture). On the opposite end of the spectrum, any truck can cross hard pan desert, but in the dunes or severe side slopes, tall trucks with high CGs and a lot of weight hanging behind the rear axle make the going very difficult. I can show you video of a U1300L (3.25m wheelbase) with a tall, long camper box that spent as much time with the front wheels in the air as it did with them on ground. Not only does this make it difficult or impossible to climb dunes or cross side slopes, but consider the stress all that weight is putting on the rear axle. The driver of said Mog was so stressed, he finally split off from the group and left the dunes. He ended up selling the Mog and buying another and now plans a much more compact camper. The second picture doesn't really do it justice, but the inclinometer in the green Mog was maxx'ed out past 35 degrees. I doubt you're doing that with a tall camper...

As you've mentioned, moving roofs have been around for many years and while there are a few parts involved, none of them is very prone to failure. We're talking about basic stuff here so if the design is good, I think it can perform well for many years.

Rob's point about the folding bed is a good one. A clever folding bed can be deployed in seconds and does allow for significanly more living space. Though I would have liked to build in such a bed, my need for storage (under the double bed) overrides the benefit of the added living space. So for me at least, the fixed double makes more sense. In my design, the bed is useable even with the roof down because it's about 3 feet off the floor and the interior height is about 5 feet. Having at least one bed, converted dinette or fixed, that can be used while moving is important. It allows someone to rest while moving or, as you've mentioned, to deal with illness. This has happened on trips more than once.

Rob also brought up the issue of ventilation and this should not be underestimated. In the last two pictures, you can see that the roof of the camper opens, providing fresh air and lots of light. After many days of camping inside that box, the fresh air really becomes necessary...

As far as the chassis details are concerned, I don't think it will be too dificult to arrange the batteries and fuel tanks to work around your design (remember, you have more chassis length to work with). In the third picture you can see that the battery box is flush with the back edge of the cab and there are two fuel tanks hanging on one side. You could hang both on the driver's side instead, giving you over 80 gallons. This arrangement provides more than 900 miles of range for me. Besides the two tanks currently on it, I also had another 270L (70 gallon) tank on it but never used it. I've since removed it and in fact, it's for sale.

Still, finalizing a design without having the truck is going to be risky but then, I'd guess you're not going to build the camper until you have the truck. If you want any dimensions or pictures of my L37, let me know. I hope I haven't put you to sleep...

Regards,
OO

Metcalf

05-10-2007, 10:33 PM

Thanks for the reply Oonimog. I think I might have missed a PM, but I did send you an e-mail reply and never heard back! I was rambling, but I hope you have some knowledge to pass on. I loved your pics, where these from the trip you just got back from? Please send me some more by e-mail if you get a chance. I'd love to see an inside shot of the green l37 camper. That looks like a very impressive truck.

I'm still working on build list and price range for Hellgeth. I pretty much have my heart set on an l37.....its gonna cost me I'm sure.

I resized and hosted your pics so they show up inline at the right size. I am also going to point out a few things for everyone to comment on.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p60/Metcalfphoto/MyMog.jpg

This is a major reason why I want a low profile and smaller stature camper system. You would really have to push hard to get anything bigger in areas like this. The corners on a taller camper box would got really worked over on trails like this. I plan on using the unimog to its limits...

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p60/Metcalfphoto/140-4046_IMG.jpg

This is a very impressive truck! Is it for sale :D This is very close to what I have in mind for overall size. I would say that I might even have the box be a slight bit shorter. The length is great ( around 3700mm? ). This will also make a very good picture to photochop my camper ideas onto for inspiration. Though you could have a box this long on a standard 3250mm wheelbase 1300L I think it would cause some problems like the ones mentioned. Departure angle would suffer as would weight distribution. In my opinion keeping as much of the weight as low as possible and forward as practical will lead to a much better handling chassis.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p60/Metcalfphoto/138-3829_IMG.jpg

I've seen this spare tire placement before and love the idea. I don't know if I will be able to use it, but its pretty slick. I have thought about it in a few of my designs and may go back to it. This keeps a very heavy piece of required equipment forward and low in the chassis. I was thinking that one could use the sand ladders or waffles you are are already carrying to form a ramp to allow the tire to be rolled to the ground. These tire are very heavy and most likely mechanically assisted assistance will be required to get them to the ground. Depending on the terrain just rolling one of these around on the ground can be a real workout. When working with one of these tires in any area with sloped ground keep a tether on it. I was changing a tire once on a tight two track road and had it get away from me over the bank. It promptly rolled all the way to the bottom of the canyon. It took the better part of a day to get it out. Lesson learned.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p60/Metcalfphoto/137-3755_IMG.jpg

This is why I want a low center of gravity. I am trying to keep all the very heavy items as low as possible. This needs to be taken into account when designing in space for water tanks, fuel tanks, batteries, spare tires, tools, chains, etc. Weight adds up extremely quick.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p60/Metcalfphoto/139-3994_IMG.jpg

This is just a nice photo. Also notice the 1300L behind the green camper. Its roof is even lower. Its flush with the top of the cab.

I have a few questions up for input....

How much fuel to carry? Its easy to say lots. I am planning on right around 100gallons. Multiple tanks seem to be the consensus for redundancy. With a diesel vehicle should you bother to carry a 5 gallon can of petrol?

How much fresh water storage? Should all the water be filtered or just the water used for drinking? Is there a need for a equal size large greywater tank?

I hope everyone is enjoying this thread as much as I am.

Bob_Sheaves

05-10-2007, 11:50 PM

For calculating vehicle fuel economy and "how much to carry", use SAE J688 calculations-same thing we use in the industry....

http://eogld.ecomm.gm.com/NASApp/mediumduty/printbook?printbooktype=weightcalc&doctype=truckselection&year=2004#search=%22sae%20j688%22 (pdf file of all the calcs and tables)

...feel free to ask if there are any questions on this document.

Best regards,

Bob Sheaves
CEO
catNET Incorporated
http://www.catnetsolutions.com

haven

05-12-2007, 04:02 PM

In Australia, a company called Innovan makes a caravan that
has a clamshell roof similar to Metcalf's original design.

http://innovan.com.au/img/gallery/quick/17.jpg

http://innovan.com.au/img/gallery/quick/16.jpg

Overall dimensions of the Innovan camper in closed position are
1500 mm high, 2800 mm long, 2150 mm wide
59 inches high, 110 inches long, 85 inches wide

I chopped a couple of photos to show what the camper would
look like mounted on a short wheelbase Fuso FG:

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/12/web/840000-840999/840825_40_full.jpg

Yes, it does look like a miniature garbage truck, thanks very much.

You can purchase the Innovan as an unfinished shell without windows,
or as a finished camper with a variety of equipment.

View more at Innovan's web site: http://innovan.com.au/

Chip Haven

VikingVince

05-12-2007, 04:57 PM

How about attaching a HiLo travel trailer to a truck's frame rails? Take off the wheels, axle, etc. It opens straight up and down...you'd have a low center of gravity. The quality of the unit is probably questionable...like most U.S. motorhomes/trailers...but on the plus side it would be an "easy" conversion, all the amenities, low COG, and a hardsided popup.
www.hilotrailer.com

It would be similar to what the Hackneys did...attaching a BigFoot camper to the Fuso FG 4x4. You'd probably have to extend the frame rails like they did.
www.hackneys.com

haven

05-14-2007, 05:17 AM

The Hi-Lo trailer line includes a 17 foot trailer that would probably fit on a cab-forward truck like a Fuso FG. The frame of the 136" wheelbase Fuso FG is 157" in length. After the trailer hitch is removed, the Hi-Lo would be about 14 feet/168" long. The 19 foot model (16 feet/192" without the hitch) might move the center of gravity back too far.

As VikingVince points out, the biggest problem with the Hi-Lo is construction quality. It definitely is not in the same league as the Bigfoot products.

If you're interested in a pop-up camper, the Alaskan Camper folks will make a custom model without cab-over that will provide the same room as the Hi-Lo. The Alaskan Camper is very well constructed.

Here's what a 13 foot Alaskan Camper looks like on a Sprinter chassis.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f120/Isner/DSC00067.jpg

Chip Haven

stevenmd

01-13-2008, 10:33 PM

I can't believe I just read the whole thread again. Bump for a cool read!

Can anyone identify the red vehicle in this post? (model, etc.)
http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=75200&postcount=63

Metcalf

01-14-2008, 01:29 AM

Thanks, I can't wait to visit this project again when I have some more time. Right now I am getting geared up to rebuild a 04-06 Jeep LJ for a do everything vehicle....everything from daily driving to week long baja trips.

Octamog

01-14-2008, 01:57 AM

You might want to look into a bed lifting system (http://www.happijac.com/prod-lifts/lift-ov.php)... I have a neighbor who has one in their RV and it's a nice space saver.

haven

01-14-2008, 05:27 AM

In the 1990's the Safari RV company produced an interesting Class A model called the Trek that included a bed lift. The "Magic Bed" lowered down over the seating area just behind the driver's seat. This allowed the vehicle to forego a separate bedroom. As a result, the overall length of the Trek model was 24 to 28 feet, rather than the 30 plus feet of the typical Class A. The shorter length made the Trek much easier to drive.

The Magic Bed had two problems. First, the coach had to be level to keep the bed from jamming in the tracks as it lowered. Second, the electric motor driving the bed up and down wasn't strong enough, and there were many failures.

For trivia buffs, some Trek models were powered by a Mitsubishi 3.9L turbo 4 cylinder diesel engine. RVs thus equipped were very slow, but got relatively good fuel mileage.

Chip Haven

kerry

01-14-2008, 11:59 PM

Lots of European motorhomes like Hymer's have had drop down beds over the driver/passenger seats.

Metcalf

12-22-2009, 08:26 PM

I haven't stopped thinking about this one....its a big daunting project that will cost a lot of money, but I still think about it. Unimog campers are not cheap.

This new design I have been working on was in an effort to see how comfortable of a camper I could fit inside a low height fixed shell. The shell on this camper is only 5' tall and would not stick that far above the cab of the Unimog. The shell is 7' wide and 12' long. It was designed to fit on an L37 wheelbase unimog and preserve the departure angle.

I kept the drop down bathroom/entry idea. I like that this provides a decreased step in height along with a full standing height area in the bathroom. The floor of the bathroom/entry doubles as a shower pan. So even with the short camper height, you still get an area to stand up and stretch even when trapped in the camper in bad weather.

I tried to minimize the weight at the rear of the camper. The only weight behind the rear tires is the couch/fold up bed, and a clothes wardrobe. The long outside storage compartment would have any heavy items stored as far forward as practical. The spare tire is also at the front of the camper to keep weight forward. There is also a 75 gallon water tank between the spare tire and kitchen area. All the plumbing ( hot water exchanger and espar ) will be under the kitchen sink.

In general, this design is suppose to be built as light as possible. The frame of the camper would be nidacore/aluminum with the interior structure built our of something like epoxy coated 1/4" marine plywood. The counter top would be aluminum with a welded in sink. No drawers would be used, instead light weight perforated aluminum baskets would be used with elastic cord keepers. A net or fabric curtain would be used over the wardrobe. There would only be a privacy curtain ( shower curtain ) between the main camper section and bathroom/entry. Weight would be saved in all parts when possible. Ideally all the dividing walls, cabinet bottoms, etc....could all be water jet cut with lighting holes and features.

To use the kitchen you would install a removable stool in the floor. This would allow comfortable use of the kitchen for cooking and dishes.

The bed folds out from the couch area covering the entire open floor area in the main area of the camper. It should take less than a minute to change from couch to bed. All the bedding would be stored under the couch for easy access and use. This is also very light material and can be stored at the rear of the camper.

I think keeping the camper as light as practical would open up an entirely new world in off-road performance for the Unimog chassis. Most of the weight in this design is as far forward as possible. The water tank, spare tire, kitchen, and bathroom are all ahead of the rear wheels and basically sitting on the floor of the 'bed' of the original unimog design.

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p60/Metcalfphoto/camper1.jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p60/Metcalfphoto/camper2.jpg

http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p60/Metcalfphoto/camper3.jpg

Thoughts?

dzzz

12-22-2009, 09:42 PM

What's the wheelbase?

Metcalf

12-22-2009, 09:52 PM

L37 unimog....so 3700mm or approx 146"

Departure and breakover angle would remain as good as a the stock unimog.

dzzz

12-22-2009, 11:16 PM

A couple of thoughts;

-There's a lot of emphasis on the kitchen, but the small living space with a 5' ceiling would seem to indicate an outdoor orientation.

- What can you do with a 5 foot ceiling that you couldn't do with a six foot?

- What's the advantage of putting most of the weight on the front axle?

- How big of an opening can be made to the cab?

- On the rear wall you could put a huge hatch with a screen to expand the space in good weather (like watdahelisdat)

Just for reference I attached the most common expo plan. 16 x 7.5. Too big for a 1300L

Metcalf

12-22-2009, 11:51 PM

-There's a lot of emphasis on the kitchen, but the small living space with a 5' ceiling would seem to indicate an outdoor orientation.

The 5' ceiling is more about clearance off-road and the ability to fit in a standard shipping container. 5' keeps the overall height of the camper box to just over the height of the unimog cab ( 6-9" ).

The big kitchen is going to be used for the bad weather portions of the trip. Its not all fun in the sun for this concept :) That is the major motivation for lighter, lower, and more off-road performance.

- What can you do with a 5 foot ceiling that you couldn't do with a six foot?

-lower center of gravity
-the corners are lower so they don't get caught as much off-road
-Fit in a shipping container

- What's the advantage of putting most of the weight on the front axle?

Off road performance. If you can keep a 50/50 weight distribution, or even a little front heavy you will be able to push the truck further. Keeping most of the weight between the front and rear axle keeps the moment down so the chassis dynamically handles better IMOO.

- How big of an opening can be made to the cab?

No opening to the cab. You might be able to have a small window from the bathroom to the cab but I don't think its worth the hassle. In an emergency you could exit the hatch in the unimog and enter the camper through the vent/skylight/hatch or the opposite.

- On the rear wall you could put a huge hatch with a screen to expand the space in good weather (like watdahelisdat)

I was thinking of making the window smaller on the passenger side ( non kitchen side ) and having a large opening there. That would open up the area by the bed a lot.

I don't want a hatch on the rear of the camper. I think the rear wall is the hardest to seal against dust and water because of the vacuum behind the truck when its moving.

The rest of the bed also props up against the rear wall to form the back of the couch.

dzzz

12-22-2009, 11:59 PM

I would make it as tall as will fit in a hi cube container.

attached is my version
- outward right hand door to hide toilet
- you need three risers for 24 inch of stairs, the last riser can be closer to the rear tire as it's higher
- I took out the L counter and gave access to a large closet with the water tank on the floor
-I turned the tire
-I would go back 18 inches with a cut to maintain depature angle. Put the 'cut' under the couch

Metcalf

12-23-2009, 12:25 AM

Thanks for the ideas dzzz.

attached is my version
- outward right hand door to hide toilet
- you need three risers for 24 inch of stairs, the last riser can be closer to the rear tire as it's higher
- I took out the L counter and gave access to a large closet with the water tank on the floor
-I turned the tire
-I would go back 18 inches with a cut to maintain depature angle. Put the 'cut' under the couch

There is no need for the angle cut on the back. The factory departure angle and bed length are maintained on an L37 wheelbase with this design. All the bedding also gets stored under the 'couch'. Basically the rear of the camper is even with the factory bumper. On the L37 the rear tire is almost at the rear most portion of the bed.

I think in a perfect world you would need a more stairs, but a single foot stair would be enough for us. The wasted space between the bathroom and tire could be occupied by the gray water tank shaped in a triangle. The water from the sinks could gravity flow to this easily. I could hide a small sump type pump in the triangle stair to pump the shower water up from the shower pan into the tank ( if it wasn't cool to just let it water the ground with a simple drain hose ). The toilet is a cassette style so it doesn't go in the tank.

I like your idea for turning the tire, but it does shift the counter space and sink away from the water tank. With my design they are almost right on top of each other. All the plumbing can be located under the sink corner space with an outside door to access it.

I think the L-shaped kitchen would also work better for cooking and cleaning while seated on a simple stool. You shouldn't have to move your position in order to access the sink, stove, prep counter, and fridge.

I like the large closet, but I don't know if it would be any bigger than my design. The only thing I have stored in the back are clothes and bedding. In your design I loose a lot of kitchen storage space I think. I would have to have cupboard above to gain back the space. I also think that I would have a hard time fitting the microwave, fridge, sink ( and plumbing ), and stove in the straight wall kitchen, especially with the long outside storage cabinet below this area.

Battery space is limited in my design, especially if I want to keep the batteries forward with the weight down. I could sneak a large battery in the area wasted in front of where the spare tire rolls in. I could also install one in the wasted space behind the fuel tank on the drivers side. I would like the camper to be fairly independent however......basically I would like it to be able to be pulled from the unimog and placed on a cradle to be used at the ranch as extra room for guests ( and I can use the 'mog for other stuff too)

Thanks or all the ideas. I hope people keep posting there thoughts.

dzzz

12-24-2009, 02:42 PM

If you go to 36 inches high on the bath vanity you can get some batteries under the counter from the street side. That will be a tall space, so you can have storage above.

Vanities are normally 30" as a compromise height for smaller children.

With fuel and tire on street side, the batteries really need to be curb side. It would also be good to have the center of the water tank curb side.

On a mog I don't believe you can tell the difference between the spare tire forward or on the back. Especially with a short camper.

Also, I think the cost of Nida core is inconsistent with worrying about departure angle and weight distribution. You won't want to risk damage going anywhere tough.

Several companies will make whole wall sections with a tougher exterior. These solutions will weigh more, but you can build your shell in a weekend. I'm unsure at this point as to the cost savings over Nidacore. But a whole wall solution does save the time/cost connecting the panels and additional interior insulation installation.

With what's available today, the turtle nidacore build is very cumbersome. Especially for an over 1 ton truck.

Metcalf

12-24-2009, 03:38 PM

If you go to 36 inches high on the bath vanity you can get some batteries under the counter from the street side. That will be a tall space, so you can have storage above.

The bathroom vanity does not sit on the same level as the toilet. The vanity sink sits on the 'floor' of the main camper section. There is only approx 22-24" of width outside the frame for the drop down with the intended width of the camper.

With fuel and tire on street side, the batteries really need to be curb side. It would also be good to have the center of the water tank curb side.

The balance of the camper is still off, I agree. I am still working on the design to centralize the weight forward and towards the middle of the camper.

The spare tire is generally a static weight, it doesn't change really, so that is why i decided to move it as far forward as possible. In the end it may not even be connected to the camper, it may sit on the frame to lower the height to make removal and install easier.

One question I have is...how much battery is enough? I was planning on 2 of the group 31 Diehard/oddessey batteries. Do you think that will be enough to run a small fridge, 12v microwave, etc ?

On a mog I don't believe you can tell the difference between the spare tire forward or on the back. Especially with a short camper.

Its not only about the weight, but also about the overall length. I disagree about the spare tire weight. That 300 (?) pounds would constantly be behind the rear axle. It not only makes the rear axle heavier, it also actually takes weight OFF the front axle by the lever effect its position would have. It also has a pretty drastic effect on the moment of inertia of the chassis. I feel that on something big and heavy like a mog, it would be better to have all the weight you can in the most compact area. That is why the kitchen, water tank, plumbing, spare tire, etc are all as close as possible to each other.

Also, I think the cost of Nida core is inconsistent with worrying about departure angle and weight distribution. You won't want to risk damage going anywhere tough.

Several companies will make whole wall sections with a tougher exterior. These solutions will weigh more, but you can build your shell in a weekend. I'm unsure at this point as to the cost savings over Nidacore. But a whole wall solution does save the time/cost connecting the panels and additional interior insulation installation.

With what's available today, the turtle nidacore build is very cumbersome. Especially for an over 1 ton truck.

The aluminum/nidacore system is for weight reduction. Overall its as strong as you want to make it. There are some similar products on the market now too that have the cells filled with foam for insulation.

Are there any systems that are lighter, stronger, and more insulated than a nidacore system ( or similar honeycomb structural composite )? I could dream about molding the entire camper in a carbon fiber/foam composite shell. Then just cut the holes I need for doors and windows.

Note: I think another good point of the large open air panel/window system would be that it provides an excellent point of entry for the replacement of larger items like the refrigerator or bed. I don't have to worry about those items fitting out the door.

Once of the main goals of this project is not only weight distribution, but also weight reduction. While I want a full featured camper that will make bad weather camping possible, I also want it to be as light as practical. This was one of the main motivations behind doing this fixed top design. I don't know how light I can really get everything, but in the future when I fully model the final design I can get a pretty darn good estimate.

Thank you for the continued conversation! I appreciate you sharing your opinions and viewpoint.

dzzz

12-24-2009, 04:52 PM

My point on vanity height was to give about 12" clearance for a couple batteries. At a standard vanity height you only have six inches, which isn't worth much.

I'm also looking at that space in the vanity being open towards the storage space. The batteries may protrude a bit into that space. But it still gets the weight towards that side. It's one of the few ways in your design to shift weight.

In my design I have the batteries on center, and a 150g water tank offsetting a 120g fuel tank. While that balance isn't perfect, it is controllable.
I'm not so much concerned about managing weight as the time without resupply.

Randwolfe

12-31-2009, 01:12 AM

Thanks for all the discussion! I am watching this thread with interest, as I hope to pick up a Pinzgauer 712 AMB-S for conversion to a self-contained expedition camper, with a possible shelter stretch of up to 800mm.

The dual purpose of a mudroom/shower is an ingenious solution for the extemely limited space of the box. Once I have a chance to gather my thoughts, I hope to start a Pinz Camper thread.

Cheers

Metcalf

12-31-2009, 01:18 AM

Thank you, I really like the entry/mudroom/shower/bath idea. With the limited height of the camper it can also function as a dressing room with full standing height. On the road it makes it very easy to stop for a bathroom break if you are not feeling well since its the first thing in the camper.

The limitation is that you have to go through the bathroom to get into the camper. So if someone is using it you have to wait to enter or exit. Honestly I don't think it would be a big deal with 2 people.

With the 'panel' pop open 'window' on the side like BiMobil does you could also enter or exit in that area if you really needed to....when its open.

Joaquin Suave

12-31-2009, 01:36 AM

Don't you think it is wise to state/ warn people that your designs are base on PURE SPECULATION...
AND you have NO experience of what your speaking about???

How about this...You go buy a Large 4x4 truck (+/- $ 40K), then build a box (another +/-$20k to $100K)...
THEN ACT LIKE AN EXPERT!!!!!!!!!

Moderaters KILL THIS THREAD! Before some poor smuch throws good money after bad and blames ExPo!

Randwolfe

12-31-2009, 01:40 AM

The key is whether you are adapting an existing structure, or building a new one. With an existing structure you may wish to make accomodations to fit the existing constraints, but with a new structure you have the proverbial blank sheet to work with, getting what you truly want. In the case of a Pinz, I would like to make a side entrance, but unless I stretch the shelter, that takes up too much room, so I am limited to rear access.

Soon enough I'll take up the challenge and start that thread.

Metcalf

12-31-2009, 01:45 AM

Ouch.

Since I guess no-one has ever came up with a good idea before testing it for years before hand, I should just shut up. Look at the heading of the thread...

My camper IDEAS, THOUGHTS, and PLANS

I never claimed to be an expert.

dzzz

12-31-2009, 01:58 AM

liquor, joking about oneself, and sarcasm can be dangerous combination

"A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history - with the possible exceptions of 4x4's, handguns and tequila. "

Randwolfe

12-31-2009, 02:04 AM

I honestly believe your comments to be inappropriate. This discussion is a good brainstorming of possible solutions and issues, and does not represent itself to be a solution to all problems, and is not offering itself as a how to for the poor schmuck.

All advances start with abstract thought, trial and error. Even customised aircraft interiors are an iterative process, often starting in an office following a similar process as we see here.

Instead of maligning the thread, offer your experience, so that we may all benefit.

dzzz

12-31-2009, 02:47 AM

If you are speaking to me, I was speaking to Joaquin (who was joking in his post)

Randwolfe

12-31-2009, 02:52 AM

Dzzz,
Definitely not directed at you. Sorry if it appeared misdirected.

dzzz

12-31-2009, 03:00 AM

Here's Joaquin's truck, so you can get his failed humor:

casa azul (http://www.overlandhardware.com/ca-specs.html)

Joaquin Suave

12-31-2009, 03:05 AM

If not. Then don't pretend to be real!

http://www.overlandhardware.com/images/baja_083.jpg

Randwolfe

12-31-2009, 03:10 AM

Impressive truck...looks good, however, I do not see the humour in these posts...sorry. Oh well, enough about that.

Joaquin Suave

12-31-2009, 03:26 AM

There is no joke as far as I'm concerned! There have been several people that have "bellied up to the bar" AND I appreciate their input! WANA'BEES are WANA'BEES. When you "poni up" then post! Un-tell then..."speculate"!

dzzz

12-31-2009, 03:37 AM

Is there a full moon?

kcowyo

12-31-2009, 04:34 AM

Moderaters KILL THIS THREAD! Before some poor smuch throws good money after bad and blames ExPo!

Jack.... :victory:

I can't kill this thread... it's just getting good! Buy the guy a drink and tell him what you really think, lol!

Let's let the daydreams & ideas continue.... :campfire:

.

Randwolfe

01-01-2010, 09:56 PM

Having led teams for the design and certification of aircraft interior completions (structures, furnishings and systems), I think I qualify as having the knowledge and experience to contribute to a conceptual design discussion.

So what were we discussing before this distraction?

dzzz

01-01-2010, 10:45 PM

It's Metcalf's thread/build , so it's up to him to continue. Or I thought it was his thread. Perhaps there been an e-coup over the holiday and Jocquin's in charge?
Usually it's low drama around here.

Metcalf

01-01-2010, 10:54 PM

Yeah, I was going to give everyone a bit to cool off. I will revisit this when I have some more ideas. This project is going to be a few years out for me, but if people want to discuss the concept please feel free. I enjoy all the input people have.

oonimog

01-06-2010, 01:24 AM

Metcalf,
Roll on! Like most people, I like seeing and reading about other's camper ideas, even if they're not yet ready for launch.

The idea of keeping the roof height low will naturally help off road clearance and CG, and will certainly keep things lighter and less complex (less costly as well) - all good things. This is how my Mog is currently set up. This may work out well for you but after living with this arrangement for several years, I think I want to be able to stand properly in the camper. The Quasimodo deal gets old after a few weeks on the road. If you'll spend most of your time in warmer weather, you could also build a large roof hatch. Still simple and light.

My plan was to build a new camper with an articulating roof but I've decided to build down instead of up. I believe I can build a trough into the floor that will provide at least 6' of headroom with a very minimal increase to my current overall outside height. The trough will drop into the empty space between the torsion-free mounts and should add ~8" of interior height. With the front and sides of the roof tapered (smaller but similar to Mog ambulance boxes), off road capability should be maintained. It will be far less complex and without the added bulk up high (from the moving roof), the CG may even slightly improve.

Regards,
Pete

DiploStrat

01-06-2010, 03:11 PM

So before anyone goes ballistic, check out M. Stewart's thoughts on the subject. http://www.xor.org.uk/silkroute/equipment/choosevan.htm

And yes, he has the creds. And, at last report he bought a used Bimobil rather than try to do it himself again.

On my guitar forum there is a warning that working inside tube amps can be dangerous as there are fatal voltages present. The same is true of home brew campers/cross country vehicles - break something, run out of fuel/water, etc. and you could have a very bad, or at least very expensive, day.

With that caveat - dream on! :)

Metcalf

01-06-2010, 03:19 PM

I wouldn't know what to do if I couldn't build and modify it myself.....that would be tragic!

I've read that article before....lots of good stuff. I was looking for it just a few days ago and couldn't find it. I noticed he bought a used BiMoibil camper too. Thanks for posting the link...I'm gonna read it again.

4x4 explorer

01-07-2010, 09:54 PM

This forum and others like it can provide a wealth of information, and that depends on sharing. Is everything usable..NO. Some information comes from dreamers who have never built anything and some from professionals who have designed, built and driven expedition campers. They all can politely give their opinions and respect others pro's/con's without getting "puckered up". Most of us are smart enough that we don't need a disclaimer to measure or validate an opinion I have yet to see a blueprint for the "perfect" expedition camper, so anyone wanting to build their own relies on gathering and sorting out what makes sense to them and what skill set they have to fabricate it once they have designed it. Guys like J. Suave probably don't belong on this forum. He's not a sharer, he's an engineer/designer/builder or so he has indicated in other posts who expects to get paid for his thoughts. I don't particularly have a problem with that, until he jumps in and goes off on someone in this thread. At some "past point" I would have loved to hear his thought's, but since he's made it so abundantly clear "that's what he gets paid for", isn't there some forum protocol regarding advertising ones services? There are others out there who have as much and maybe more knowledge and although they have credentials too, they are willing to share what they have learned. If it weren't for them I know it would have been more difficult to get my camper designed and built without a UNICAT budget. Sorry I'm not the type that can let "sleeping dogs lie".

Metcalf

01-07-2010, 10:06 PM

I engineer, design, and build things for a living....just not expedition campers.

Ford Prefect

01-08-2010, 07:12 AM

I have not read this entire thing yet, but I am really enjoying it so far, and thank you, Metcalf, for posting it up for us to read!

Hey, just a question for you, are you planning on having any windows, or even better windows and sky lights in this thing? I realize that a traditional sky light might be an entry point for a would-be theif, but if you made them small and locate them strategically I think you would find it benificial, and too small for a person to get through.

None of the plans I have seen, so far, seem to have windows, so, I guess I could be asking a stupid question, but without it sure would get teedious running the power all the time for light.

Anyhow, GREAT ideas. I personally want to do a top that the full thing raises up, rather than a hinge idea like yours.

Any thoughts on using a tortion bar (like on the flip pac toppers) for your hinge point? It would seem to take some of the load off of the air rams when in the up position.

GOOD LUCK! and THANKS for all the ideas!

Metcalf

01-08-2010, 03:38 PM

I will write more detail later, stuck at work and all.

Yes, the water has to be pumped back up out of the shower pan to the grey water tank. The grey water tank was indented to be in the wasted space to the front of the wheel-well. All the sinks can gravity feed it, but the shower need to be pumped. I was going to hide a little sump pump in one of the steps in the later designs.

The downside to having the gray water tank outside the insulated space is winter time use. The tank can freeze.

The goal of this design was to be as compact as possible.

The triangle pop up was intended to be hard sided to keep down wind noise. Most soft sided campers are too noisy in the wind IMOO.

I would not use a torsion bar to help lift the top. Its just too big and heavy. I would just use a pair of balanced air lift cylinders.

A downside to the triangle pop up is windows. There just isn't a clean and simple way to install windows so they clear the moving sides. One solution is to have a skylight system for interior light. As you mentioned this opens up the camper to someone breaking in the top. Be it windows or skylights, if they are big enough for someone to get through, with enough determination they will. Most people would not notice the skylights because they would be on top of the truck and not really too visible with the top down. They could also be grated if you are really worried about it.

Ford Prefect

01-12-2010, 12:19 AM

I personally like the lift top a lot. I have been pondering the idea myself. Personally I really like the Unicat version, but I doubt I would ever be able to afford that. If it is not obvious already, I am considering a much larger vehicle for my personal needs. Further I am not looking for an off road vehicle, so I think I will likely go with a Volvo myself, and that large of a truck has a lot less in the way of weight restrictions.

If you check out the windows in the campers where the tops go up and down, like the Alcan, and there was another linked early on, as well as that of the Unicats, (the few that have windows) you can see that the windows are fairly dramatically set in (looks about three or four inches) I presume this is done for the clearance you mentioned.

Gray water... My first thought on that would be could you use a battery heating pad? My wife and I are thinking seriously of moving up to Alaska, and one of the things that you have to do to winterize the vehicles is install a heating pad around the battery. Could you, perhaps, put something like that on, or even a tranny heat pad glued to the bottom? This would keep it liquid enough to drain, and of course it would be switched so that you do not need to run it all the time, if the tank is gravity fed you could even let it freeze and simply thaw it out when ready to dump. I do not know if that is possible or if that will all work out, but it seems logical in my mind. (Pardon me for not being an expert Joaquin. None of my vehicles have ever been on the discovery channel after all.)

Now, with the roof, someone posted up a lift intended to raise and lower a bed in the back of a toy hauler camper. Have you considered using something like that to simply raise the entire roof? If you are going to lift part of it, I would think that such a lift as the earlier link might be a great way to simply lift the entire roof. Folks have told me lifting the entire roof would be more difficult than doing what your original plan called for, but I personally do not see it. It seems far less complicated.

The solution to your first problem (the door) would be to add a two piece door, of which you can open the bottom alone, or open both. This way you can open up while the top is still down.

Last thought for you, I wanted to second a previously mentioned thought of using the roof rack to hold the Mt. Bikes. Fold in half or not, if you put those things in the hall way of the camper when shipping, and then out on the roof while driving, it will a lot a greater amount of space for things that need to be indoors while traveling, even more space for clothing.

Well, none the less, I have learned a lot from my conversations and speculations, and likewise I have learned a lot from reading about your ideas.

Good luck!
Brian