Which Warn Winch?

[Brian894x4]

These are my choices for this Slee bumper. The really big ones won't fit.

Here are the best prices I've found for the three. All brand new.

M8000 - $525 http://www.warn.com/truck/winches/src/M8000.shtml
XD9000 - $750 http://www.warn.com/truck/winches/src/XD9000.shtml
XP 9.5 - $950 http://www.warn.com/truck/winches/95xp_winch.shtml

I know 8000lbs is a pretty small for our heavy Land Cruiser LC80s, but I have seen a few guys winch with these OK. I expect my winching to be minimal and probably only in snow conditions as that's when I've used it most in the past. To be honest I probably winch less than once a year. In fact, I haven't used the winch on my truck to extract myself in at least a few years. I have used it to pull out out other folks or other creative non-extraction uses where I didn't need all 8000lbs.

The main difference between the M8000 and XD9000 is you get 1000 additional lbs capacity. From reading the specs, the M8000 has a faster line speed at all pull wieghts, but uses slightly more amps. The XP9.5 has a slightly faster line speed than the XD9000 and usings a fraction more power.

At first I was going to get the 9.5 XP since it was the nicest winch, and definately the best looking, but after reading the specs, I don't see any justification for spending another $225 for 1000 extra pounds pulling or $425 for 1500 extra pounds pulling and a nicer looking winch.

Am I missing something? Will the 8000 be suffecient or should I go back to considering the XD9000 or 9.5 XP?

[asteffes]

I came very close to getting an xp9, as it looked very powerful and durable. I ended up with Superwinch EP9.0 from Winchline.com. Around $770 shipped with synethetic line, safety thimble and pulley block. It was a great deal, if perhaps a bit heavier than the Warn.

[dd113]

M8000 hands down. I ran it on my 62 and it weighed more than ANY 80! Get a pulley block and a few shackles then learn how to use them. You can make the 8k into a 16k or 32k! Synthetic rope is a good idea but if you wont use the winch that much jsut go with the wire rope. Get the M8 with the longer lenght of rope.

[Rezarf <><]

So I guess the 8274 won't fit?

Bummer, I would modify the bumper ;)

Rezarf <><

[Brian894x4]

Ya, I think I am going to go with an M8000. It just makes the most economical sense. I already have the snatchblock and synethic rope, so I'm good to go there.

Thanks for the imput!

[euclid]

I let this post (http://forum.ih8mud.com/showpost.php?p=1581546&postcount=37) sway met to the 9.5XP mainly because it is better sealed.

I installed synthetic rope to get the overall weight down.

[Brian894x4]

Darn you! Hee, hee.

Just when I had my heart set on saving some money and buying the M8000.

I think I will still go with the M8000. I winch so rarely, I dont' think I could justifiy the extra $425. Especially when I have other junk to blow that money on.

:D

[asteffes]

To use your own argument, how about only $64 more than an M8000 for a 9000lb. model that uses nearly half the power at maximum pull, with about the same line speed? Also has the external brake to avoid heating your synthetic line.

Superwinch EP9.0 for $589 from a forum sponsor, http://winchline.com/winch.htm

Unless you really gotta have a Warn... ;)

[adventureduo]

I picked up my m12000 brand new in box for $900 and no tax. I got very lucky (found it on craigslist in my city). Before that i ordered a m9000 and figured i'd be fine with that. You should be good to go Brian. Just be cautious. Our rigs are heavy dude.

[Brian894x4]

Ya, a 12000 sure would be nice. The Slee bumper I got only accepts the M8000, XD9000 or 9.5XP. No others as far as I know. Which is probably a good thing. At least I can keep the overall weight down a bit.

I just spent a ton and a half of money at Slee and I still have a lot more toys to buy, so I really kind of need to keep things on budget. So a $500 Warn 8000 fits a lot nicer in the bigger scheme of things.

[Rezarf <><]

Brian-

I would go with the 8000 all day long, and really get a few good shackles, and a good pulley block... there isn't much you wouldn't be able to get out of with a setup like that.

Nothing like a winch to give me confidence to go a little further before I get REALLY stuck...:rolleyes: :victory:

Have Fun-

Rezarf <><

[Redline]

I'm reviving this thread instead of starting a new one, as the original post and question is very similar to mine...

Application

I have a built '06 4Runner. It's heavy. As configured the car's wet weight with two passengers is 6,000-lbs, right at the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR). For most trips it will have a couple hundred more pounds of additional cargo inside (dogs, recovery gear, etc.) sometimes more.

In addition to this I usually have a camping trailer behind, currently a Kimberley Kamper, also loaded and well stocked. With 19 gallons of water, 10 fuel (or extra water), an Engel MT60 Combi fridge, etc., the trailer weighs about 2,500-lbs. It’s heavy on the rear axle with a tongue weight of 400-lbs. So the gross combined weight (GCW) is 8,500+ pounds.

Some trips are without the Kimberley Kamper, and obviously when the Kimberley is not along the winching load is much less.

Current Winch set-up and plans

Though usually not one to 'go cheap' a couple years ago when starting the 4Runner build I purchased an M8000 Warn for the front of my Shrockworks bumper. I read several positive comments about the M8000 and for the very reasonable price of $540.00, shipping included, it seemed like a good choice. It may still be the 'right' choice, but of course builds are never 'finished' and I like to tinker and improve where I can. After installing the M8000 I immediately pulled the steel cable from the drum and added 100-ft of 5/16" Amsteel Blue from RockStomper and an aluminum Hawse fairlead.

I've used the above set-up a few times, to pull others and myself. Thus far none of my pull were what I would consider 'difficult', or high-load affairs where we were buried deep in deep mud or snow. Still, the winch has worked flawlessly thus far. I have yet to pull both the 4Runner and Kimberley together, but surely that day will come.

If it wasn't for my trailer pulling then my interest in upgrading would probably have little justification, more desire than any perceived need. However with the KK on the back I think a case can easily be made for having more winch. Of course, I carry a pulley (need to buy a couple more and winch extensions) and know I can increase the pulling toque of my ‘little’ M8000 with a double or triple line pull.

Upgrade Ideas

Plan A - Keep M8000 & upgrade rope

I have already been planning to change to a different synthetic rope, probably a Master Pull as I like the idea of the fully covered/protected rope, sealed from grit and degradation. I will also likely change to a thicker Hawse fairlead that is designed for synthetic rope.

Pan B - Sell M8000 and replace with 9.5xp

I have a friend building a 4Runner who is buying most of my removed/used parts. In addition to some springs/shocks, I could likely sell him my M8000, rope and fairlead when he gets his front bumper. If I purchased a Warn 9.5 I will likely put the same Master Pull rope on the drum, so that is a fixed cost.

Install Considerations

The 9.5xp is about 1.7-inches longer on the passenger side, but I have the room in the bumper. I will have to move wires or remount my solenoid in a new location as it's currently right on the end of the M8000 motor. This is possibly a minor consideration, but I do like how it's mounted.

A bigger consideration might be how challenging it will be (or not?) to pull the M8000 and install a 9.5xp with the bumper mounted. In addition to lots of bolts, the front bumper brackets are welded in a couple spots to prevent shifting. I installed the M8000 when the bumper was new before I put it on which is the easier method. I’m sure it can be done, just not sure of how much work it will be; maybe very little.

I don't know how big a deal/feature the extra sealing is on the 9.5xp, but I do regularly use a drive-through car wash. The M8000 is behind the grill/bumper and I assume it takes this in stride. The bumper/winch have yet to be submerged in standing water.

$$$$$$$$$$$$

Obviously the biggest issues are do I want to spend the extra cash to upgrade to a 9.5xp. This is about the only other winch I'm considering. If I’m going to change from the M8000 I want lots more winch or it doesn't seem worth the effort.

Is it a waste of money, or a wise investment for the day when I will be frame deep in mud or snow? Hopefully I won’t be ‘super stuck’ with the trailer, but someday I’m sure I will have the whole outfit stuck.

I know the M8000 is a good winch, and bang for the buck it is hard to beat. This is part of the reason I initially purchased the M8000. While I can't easily/don't want to haul a spare winch around on trips, the M8000 is such a bargain that I have though that I could have a spare sitting ready to go for a mere $500.00. It will cost at least $500.00 more to upgrade to a 9.5xp. Of course, ‘if’ the M8000 isn't able to pull my outfit out of a bog someday then $500.00 saved is pound foolish.

Comments and discussion please...

P.S. If I could fit an 8274 I would have one, that’s what was on my previous Jeep ☺

[MoGas]

I haven't had any problems using an 8000 pound winch on my 80.

[alia176]

M8000 will do fine for Brian's application, not sure about yours though Redline. A winch is like any other tool, it's the operator that makes the difference. Lots of old timers used small winches to do big jobs using creativity .Same goes for syn rope vs wire rope. :coffeedrink: Most of the time, laziness tend to overcome the operator's desire to spool more cable out and use a pulley block to decrease the load on the winch and to decrease the amp draw on the electrical system.

At the end, your wallet will end up dictating your decision I guess!

[Redline]

You reminded me of something I forgot in my post question... electrical.

The 4Runner has the stock alternator and a very good/large Odyssey 1750 battery, but just one.

In all but one of the times I have used the winch (the time I was with you in the snow) I have needed to pull out all/much of my 100-ft of rope to reach the anchor point. Again, not massive stucks, but pulling out the line because of a long pull or no anchor nearby has been the norm thus far.

The operator does make all the difference for sure. I like to slow down and do it right. Small winch for a big job sounds just like the old hunting caliber debate... :sombrero:


M8000 will do fine for Brian's application, not sure about yours though Redline. A winch is like any other tool, it's the operator that makes the difference. Lots of old timers used small winches to do big jobs using creativity .Same goes for syn rope vs wire rope. :coffeedrink: Most of the time, laziness tend to overcome the operator's desire to spool more cable out and use a pulley block to decrease the load on the winch and to decrease the amp draw on the electrical system.

At the end, your wallet will end up dictating your decision I guess!

[luk4mud]

Interesting thread. The rule of thumb I always heard in the Jeep world is that you should get a winch that has 2X capacity to the weight of your vehicle. I have a 12k winch and was a little concerned it might me small on a 6k+ vehicle when fully loaded. That is because the weight of the vehicle pulled up a steep incline is effectively more than the weight of the vehicle.

My thought with my new (to me) FJ80 is that I could "make do" with a 12k winch and a snatchblock in about any situation.

[spressomon]

M8000 will do fine for Brian's application, not sure about yours though Redline. A winch is like any other tool, it's the operator that makes the difference. Lots of old timers used small winches to do big jobs using creativity .Same goes for syn rope vs wire rope. :coffeedrink: Most of the time, laziness tend to overcome the operator's desire to spool more cable out and use a pulley block to decrease the load on the winch and to decrease the amp draw on the electrical system.

At the end, your wallet will end up dictating your decision I guess!


Ahhhhh...the voice of reason....again :). However, for me, I'd buy the winch that had the most potential in a given situation; and the largest/best for the space and budget. Getting stuck out in the middle of nowhere sucks. If you always travel in a group the risk goes down significantly. But when I'm solo, especially with the KK, I prefer the peace of mind of having a higher rated winch. Sort of an insurance policy I guess...

[Redline]

The guideline I have heard the most is 1.5 - 2x the vehicle weight. Obviously I'm light for 2x, and even for 1.5x now that the rig is outfitted and heavy. For the record, the 4Runner was only 4,500-lbs wen new, bone-stock with no cargo or passenger. In gained 1,000-lbs, then add some people/cargo...

In general more winch and a reserve buffer is better. But at some point it becomes very impractical to have 2x or even 1.5x the vehicle’s gross weight, or gross vehicle weight rating. Many full-sized pickups have a GVWR of 10,000-lbs or more, and obtaining and mounting a 'regular' recovery winch with a 20k rating seems impractical if not impossible. So as with any guideline, there is some wiggle room.

In the case of your 12k winch, I think you have plenty :smiley_drive:



Interesting thread. The rule of thumb I always heard in the Jeep world is that you should get a winch that has 2X capacity to the weight of your vehicle. I have a 12k winch and was a little concerned it might me small on a 6k+ vehicle when fully loaded. That is because the weight of the vehicle pulled up a steep incline is effectively more than the weight of the vehicle.

My thought with my new (to me) FJ80 is that I could "make do" with a 12k winch and a snatchblock in about any situation.

[luk4mud]

Redline, you're absolutely right, there comes a point where the cost and space to maintain that ration no longer works.

I probably would have just transferred my Supewinch 9.o over from the Jeep, but I found a 12k Warn on CL for $325 and couldn't pass it up. It fits perfectly on the ARB bumper.

[Redline]

Well I often go with a group, but not always, and I certainly want/need to be prepared to take care of myself and not rely on others. On that note, I need to find a place to mount & carry my Pull Pal, without an anchor, a winch is useless.

Ramsey

I was really making it easy on myself by only considering the Warn 9.5xp should I decide to upgrade from the M8000. Then last night I reread the OJ winch test and how well the Patriot 9500UT performed, pulling up to 12,000-lbs!

M8000 x2

I have always thought it would be wise to carry a spare winch controller, as the winch is useless without it. If it fails or get lost... And knowing the traditional winch solenoids are prone to failure carrying spares also seems like a good idea. I'm not sure which controller I need but my net searches last night have me thinking a spare controller is about $80.00. Four spare solenoids were something like $70.00.

If these prices are about right, it got me thinking how I could indeed buy another M8000 for $540.00, delivered. Have a spare controller and complete, ready to bolt-in solenoid pack, and for the extra $390.00 I would have a spare winch! Sound like a good idea to me. I can’t believe I’m the only one who has considered having a spare winch, and we know there are rigs out there outfitted with two winches. Weight is always a concern but systems redundancy is the ultimate in preparedness.

Having a spare M8000 then got me thinking about putting it onto a portable mounting plate. I have always seen the utility of having a rear-mounted winch, there are just few bumpers/practical applications for them. I would like to be able to use a rear/multi-mount winch on both the 4Runner and my F350 (the F350 is winches, but has a hitch receiver in both the rear and front bumpers).




Ahhhhh...the voice of reason....again :). However, for me, I'd buy the winch that had the most potential in a given situation; and the largest/best for the space and budget. Getting stuck out in the middle of nowhere sucks. If you always travel in a group the risk goes down significantly. But when I'm solo, especially with the KK, I prefer the peace of mind of having a higher rated winch. Sort of an insurance policy I guess...

[Redline]

Another note of interest in the OJ winch test was the failure of the Warn Endurance 12k. First the case on a ‘non-Warn mount’, then the drum crushing with synthetic line. Warn's fine print says synthetic line is not recommended for winches above 9.5k... Though it would be nice to have lots more winch capacity as a buffer, there may be some argument to running the M8000 and not crushing the drum with synthetic line or braking the case ☺ ☺

Line Length

I have always thought I wanted lots of line on my winch drum. Nevada lacks lots of anchor points and if you can't reach the anchor you’re out of luck. But when/if I replace my winch rope I am considering dropping down from 100-ft and maybe going with 80-ft. Obviously I have to pull less rope to get close to the bottom layers, and it cost less too. But certainly I will need a winch line extension (or two) which cost a few bucks.

What is a good length for a winch line extension? I was thing 75-100 ft. 50 seem too short.

[SimonInAustralia]

Having a spare M8000 then got me thinking about putting it onto a portable mounting plate. I have always seen the utility of having a rear-mounted winch, there are just few bumpers/practical applications for them. I would like to be able to use a rear/multi-mount winch on both the 4Runner and my F350 (the F350 is winches, but has a hitch receiver in both the rear and front bumpers).
http://www.warn.com/truck/mounting-systems/multi_mount.shtml

http://www.warn.com/truck/winches/src/images/100/XD9iMultiMount.jpg

[Redline]

As I pointed out, 1.5 - 2x seems to be a common recommendation, and I agree it’s a good rough guideline if attainable. Maybe it is more reasonable for lighter rigs?

While doing some research on this subject last night I looked inside Jim Allen's 4-Wheeler's Bible. In my 2002 version of the book, on page 181, Mr. Allen suggests the "minimum capacity" should be your "vehicle's gross vehicle weight (not curb weight)" plus about 15%. The example given is a pickup with a 8,600-lb gross vehicle weight. Adding 15% equals 9,890 - round up to 10k.

The plus-15% suggested minimum may be a more realistic number, as a pickup with a 10k GVWR would be 11,500, rounded up to 12k, which seems very reasonable.

I will disagree with his use of the term gross vehicle weight (GVW) which truly is the curb/wet weight of a vehicle. I believe he should have said the vehicle's Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR). GVWR is something different than "gross weight" or GVW and can be easily located on a vehicle’s data plate.

For the record, I respect and have enjoyed Mr. Allen’s published work for several years.



The guideline I have heard the most is 1.5 - 2x the vehicle weight. Obviously I'm light for 2x, and even for 1.5x now that the rig is outfitted and heavy. For the record, the 4Runner was only 4,500-lbs wen new, bone-stock with no cargo or passenger. In gained 1,000-lbs, then add some people/cargo...

In general more winch and a reserve buffer is better. But at some point it becomes very impractical to have 2x or even 1.5x the vehicle’s gross weight, or gross vehicle weight rating. Many full-sized pickups have a GVWR of 10,000-lbs or more, and obtaining and mounting a 'regular' recovery winch with a 20k rating seems impractical if not impossible. So as with any guideline, there is some wiggle room.

In the case of your 12k winch, I think you have plenty :smiley_drive:

[cruiseroutfit]

While 1.5x or 2x GVW is a easy starting point, I feel it is more intuitive to look at the actual load resistances likely to be encountered. If miring your rig up to the fenders isn't remotely probably, then why plan for it? I'm all for 'overkill engineering' and 'better safe than sorry' but we don't all need an Warn 16.5ti on our rigs when a 8k or 9k or 10k, etc would do the job.

I listed these for a 5000lb rig but you can do the math for your setup given the types of winch recoveries you would be likely to encounter. My final recommendation was to run the biggest winch you can cleanly mount and your suspension will support.

Lets assume your in your 5000lb (loaded) vehicle.

Surface Resistance:
1/10 LW (500lbs) to push a free wheeling rig on a hard, level surface
1/3 LW (1700lbs) to push a free wheeling rig on soft surface, grass or gravel
(add a broken rig to either of these situation and they can easily multiply the resistance and therefor the needed winch).

Damage resistance:
2/3 LW (3400lbs) to move a vehicle if the wheels cannot rotate (bound up axles, brakes, etc.)

Lets look at more common winch needs:

Stuck in mud:
Wheel Depth Mire (up to wheel hubs) = Resistance is the LW (5000 lbs)
Fender Depth Mire (top of wheels) = Resistance is 2x LW (10000 lbs)
Cab Depth Mire (over the fenders) = Resistance is 3x LW (15000 lbs)

And the above figures can increase (or decrease) based on the slope your working with:

Working with slopes:

Uphill Winch Pull (pulling up slope)
15 degrees - add 25% LW (add 1250 lbs)
30 degrees - add 50% LW (add 2500 lbs)
45 degrees - add 75% LW (add 3750 lbs)

Downhill Winch Pull (pulling down slope)
15 degrees - subtract 25% LW (minus 1250 lbs)
30 degrees - subtract 50% LW (minus 2500 lbs)
45 degrees - subtract 75% LW (minus 3750 lbs)

So lets say your 5000lb (LW) vehicle is stuck up to the top of its wheels and getting deeper as you continue to try and work it free. The nearest winch anchor is just over a 30* angle a above you. Your calculated load could easily exceed 12,500lbs. Far more than a 5k winch can even do single snatch blocked. Now remember that a winch is only capable of their rated capacity on their first layer of wrap, that which each additional layer they lose capacity. So unless you want to be re-rigging constantly to keep your winch in its optimal range (this goes for needing a snatchblock too), it makes sense to select a winch that will be capable of handling these loads. Sure you could use a complicated system of multiple snatchblocks. But the added cost of blocks and extension straps in conjunction with the limited range you would end up with (a 125' cable is good for lets figure 100' on a single line pull, yet only 50' with a snatch, start adding additional blocks and you'll end up with just a vehicles length of range each rigging). There will always be compromises, due to size, weight and mounting you can't fit the biggest winch on every rig, but I would do my best to fit the biggest I can.