Ceramic bullets

[AxeAngel]

Talk to me here. Are they available?

While everyone is pissing away about the whole lead bullet thing I wanted to look at alternatives. Steel is out. Other alloys are very expensive.

Could ceramics work or do they lack the stopping force because they are too brittle. Is there a composite material I don't know abiut that could be a viable alternative. I don't care if it costs more. With economies of scale and subsidies the price would likely come down

-Sam

[thebrassnuckles]

too hard for the rifling me thinks...

barnes makes some excellent lead free options..

[skysix]

Solid copper?

[SunTzuNephew]

Ceramic would be too low density, and not conform to the rifling.

Solid copper works, and has been used as 'big game' bullets for elephants, cape buffalo, and other types where you are counting on the bullets penetration and not expansion.

[desertrover]

There are no commercial ceramic bullet. A bullet has to do many things, to include withstanding massive acceleration, being malleable enough to allow the rifling to "grab" the bullet, deform in a controlled manner on impact, etc. For these reasons, a straight ceramic bullet will probably never exist. Use of some kind of malleable jacket makes it theoretically possible, but there is no commercial or military reason to do so. Are we talking rifle bullets? Barnes TSX are excellent. If the lead concern is air quality in indoor ranges, there are inexpensive fully encapsulated lead pistol bullets. Indoor ranges properly recycle their lead too, and usually at a profit.
CJ

[BIGdaddy]

copper for sure is a good option.

What about aluminium?

bizmuth being used already right?

What about something that biodegrades readily like cellulose(plant fiber)?

[Fireman78]

I'm using wooden bullets myself, but we have quite a vampire problem in this part of the country. :sombrero:

[BIGdaddy]

I'm using wooden bullets myself, but we have quite a vampire problem in this part of the country. :sombrero:

:coffeedrink:

[tdesanto]

copper for sure is a good option.

Yes, but it would be a lot more expensive.




What about aluminium?

What about something that biodegrades readily like cellulose(plant fiber)?

For these two materials, I'm not sure how the bullet could attain the mass/weight desired for the appropriate size.

[AxeAngel]

Keep it coming fellas. The more ideas the better.

Thanks!
-Sam

[jeepdreamer]

Ice bullets!
If someone can figure how to create self healing concrete, then why not an ice bullet? Oh wait...they wouldn't be trasable...oops

[SunTzuNephew]

copper for sure is a good option.

What about aluminium?

bizmuth being used already right?

What about something that biodegrades readily like cellulose(plant fiber)?

Not enough density. The bullet needs to have enough density to deliver energy at attainable velocities, and enough 'toughness' to stay intact when it hits.

Bismuth can be used as a replacement for lead (in fact, it is in lead-free shot). It's more expensive, and ~20% less dense.

[desertrover]

Aluminum bullets do exist, and I have used them. However, they are very lightweight for their size, which is undesirable in most applications. FN civilian SS195LF is a lead free round, constructed with lead free primers and ballistic hollowpoint copper jacketed aluminum. I am unaware of any aluminum bullets available to reloaders.

[PAToyota]

It seems that as many crazy compounds as they've developed over the years, that there should be some composite that would suit the application.

[Cody1771]

there should be some composite that would suit the application

there is a thread on here that is talking about the US banning hte use of lead in the back woods, pretty good read, and yes there are some composite rounds available, as well as a few different alloys that are supposed to be better for the environment, duck hunters in some states have been using them for awhile as it is banned to use lead near some bodies of water, lakes, streams, rivers, ect.

[PAToyota]

Yep, saw the other thread and realized this was in response to the issue.

[AmericaOverland]

Ice bullets!
If someone can figure how to create self healing concrete, then why not an ice bullet? Oh wait...they wouldn't be trasable...oops

What show was that?! Hart to hart? I remember an episode about an assassin taking down people with untraceable ice bullets, and the team was in a scramble to catch the killer. I remember the killer's gloved hand reaching for a bullet out of a refrigerated container and putting it in a silenced handgun.

Stephanie

[AxeAngel]

http://www.midwayusa.com/Search/?search_keywords=frangible&category_selector=#frangible____-_1-2-4_8-16-32

http://www.sinterfire.com/

http://iccammo.com/

Those of you that know me know that the reason i asked is two fold:

1)to learn more about this type of ammo and its potential uses.
2)to learn more about its potential uses and invest in the technology

-Sam

[AxeAngel]

Take a ceramic projectile, put on a plastic/polymer sleeve to avoid barrel degradation. its been done before apparently.

Especially in application where a composite gun was used to avoid metal detection.

Just need this technology to filter down and become affordable... The ceramic can be cold poured, set in a mold and then heat cycled.

-Sam

[skysix]

Actually the first question should be what is the purpose of the bullet? Targets? making big holes/hydrostatic shock? Massive deformation for shallow penetration? Incendiary? Explosive? Blunt trauma?

The next question would be related to the energy to be delivered. Then you could look at velocity required. Which will lead to cartridge and finally firearm choice. Finally cost can be considered once the design elements have been satisfied.

What about a wax saboted (is that a word?) lithium bullet... (incendiary)
Or a beanbag (biodegradeable)
or a mercury filled thin copper shell (toxic/deformation)
Or a liquid pepper water filled 40mm rubber ball (for noisy neighbors)

you could go on forever

[desertrover]

Even a very hard wax is too soft to be fired without heavy gas cutting. Gas cutting at the base of the bullet is mostly responsible for the leading in hotter unjacketed loads. Beanbag 12g loads exist, they tend to be lethal inside of 10 meters and I find them difficult to hit anything with at much more range than that. There are OC cartridges in 40mm as well, however I wouldn't wish that upon almost anyone. Mercury.. didn't this start out as a thread about less toxic alternatives to lead? The industry is already adapting very well to less toxic projectiles. There are very good lead free hunting bullets, very accurate turned solids for long range use, longer shotgun shells and matching actions becoming common to meet the need for the same quantity of now larger pellets to get the same load weight with steel, etc.

[wcdu]

Tunsten is the "A" answer and gold the "B" answer if you are trying to replace lead. Both are dense enough for retained energy. There are numerous attempts at sintered metals and ceramic composites. They are quite functional at their very high velocities close up. Accuracy falls off at about 25 yds and energy is long gone by 50. On the plus side is there is no practical way to trace the dust that is left back to a certain firearm. It can be done but let us just say very difficult and impractical. Shot as opposed to bullets would be even less effective primarily due to the very poor ballistic co-efficiencies of spherical projectiles.

Speer made quite a nice Tungstun solid back in the 90's. I harvested a Cape Buffalo (.458) and a Asian Water Buffalo (.375) with them. I have a few dozen of each left for handloading.

Steve

[FreeManDan]

I usta have a file on an old computer that never got put on one of my new computers, and right now I wish to god I did. You see it was the 16~ page law on what you can and can not make a bullet out of. If a bullet has more than a certain percentage of the long list of metals then it has to get some special approval from the BATF that it is in fact for hunting big animals and not cops...
Some one said aluminum, only if its hallow and will brake up quickly and is NOT for defending your self, but rather to shoot jackelope, or what ever the BATF thinks you hun. Steel is only allowed in some calibers and they shall never be used in a pistol! Does any one recall the teflon bullet scare, or that lethal weapon movie? Thats where these innovation styfling laws come from. Ceramic, I'm guessing no, or in short, the point I would like to make is that unless its available NOW in a bullet, then you can not put it in a bullet.

[desertrover]

AP ammunition laws are a mess to read through, and have some inconsistencies in them. For example, the military SS109 semi armor piercing steel core projectile is exempted by name. Tungsten bullets, as well as many types of steel core, are banned. With gold being priced out of the market, these two metals that one could make bullets out of are entirely impractical or illegal. There are commercially available jacket aluminum, copper solid, bronze solid, and steel core bullets. Steel however is quite regulated, and IIRC an all steel projectile is illegal if it exceeds .10 caliber. SS109 is legal, but mild steel core norinco is not.

[thebrassnuckles]

there is a company that makes aluminum bullets for the .458 socom, availble as projectiles only
i believe they are 100gr.