QUEST: Find an Eco-Overlander Vehicle

[DesertRose]

Okay, I have the Seven-Year Itch. Not to replace Jonathan, but possibly my Tacoma.

Why?
- I thought it would be interesting to try to find a real 'ecological' and 'economical' vehicle that is comfortable on the highway, easy enough to drive in the city, and could be used for overlanding (we already own a superb FJ40 and a project Land Rover 88).

- I do this every once in a while (swap vehicles) - I love vehicles, especially 4x4s, and though I adore my Tacoma, it has its faults: poor gas economy for its size, seats only 2, and the cargo area is inconvenient (I loved the convenience of my 4-door FJ55, for example).

So in the spirit of some recent discussions in the Conservation section about environmentally conscious overlanding, I wanted to see if it was possible to find a truck that fit my criteria.

Below is a list of criteria, and my true secret goal revealed. :roost:


ECO-OVERLANDER PROJECT
“Economical & Ecological Overlanding Vehicle”

Primary Goal:

- Replace 2000 4WD Tacoma TRD (V6, Xcab,188K miles, OME, rear-locker, ARE topper, ARB)
- Est. sale price $11,000

Secret Goal:

- Have enough $ left over to buy a 250cc dual-sport moto :luxhello:

Criteria for new vehicle:

- Must be high-fuel-economy (i.e. - over 30 mpg average if possible; I don't consider 20 mpg to be remotely economical under my definition)
- Diesel or able to convert to diesel a major plus
- Seating for four
- Prefer 4WD or AWD; low-range very desirable but necessary? not sure
- Comfortable on highway
- Airbags
- NHTSA rating 4-5 a big plus


Thinking smaller-looking might be more economical, I started looking at things like the Isuzu Vehi-Cross and the Tourag, but was shocked to find out (duh) they are really very heavy and aimed at performance rather than economy. I seriously considered them - SO much fun! - but could not justify cruddy fuel economy. No point in losing the value of my Taco to that.

Then I started looking at cross-overs like RAV4s and CR-Vs, but again - check out the attached PDF chart (I'm a nerd) - they are not that economical. (I include an index factor for economy to compare mileage economy between diesel and gas.)

Chart of comparisons for Eco-Overland "Lites"
(http://www.jandrhanson.com/overland/Eco-Overlander.pdf)

Then I looked at vehicles that were diesel - the Liberty - or the Suzukis that can be pretty easily converted to VW diesels. Now we see real economy here.

But the Liberty blows my budget, and frankly, I'm not sure I like the styling all that much. Ironically, Jeep is pleased because the Liberty is appealing to women because they say women want a smaller-sized but still-macho looking SUV, and my reaction is that it's too "cute" and I prefer a Land Cruiser overall . . . maybe it's because I just spent a few weeks driving Jonathan's gorgeous FJ40 nearly every day, and really, really enjoyed it . . . especially the expedition feel, and yes, the coolness and attention I got (I loved all the thumbs-ups and the 'dude' signs I got!).

The Zukes are very neat - tons and tons of cool accessories, with little ARBs (dare I say 'darling?') and racks and lockers, too. But safety and noise on the highway are a huge minus - they're pretty tinny. The Vitaras are better . . . but priced a little high for doing the swap to diesel, which would cost about $4K to do it right. Also, VW diesels have pretty low HP and torque (except the TDI, which are much harder to swap).


So what I'm finding is that the more modern these "small SUVs" have gotten, the heavier, the more powerful, and the more gas-guzzling they have gotten (though more safe). They're not economical at all.

Where to go next?

Any input anyone?

What am I missing?

Frankly I'm leaning back to what got me started on this to begin with: Find a nice FJ60 with a blown engine and replace it with a Toyota diesel . . . or import an Aussie diesel Land Cruiser for $10,000 or so . . . and then I should meet most of my criteria . . . that's the next phase of research now!

[jeffryscott]

Having had the Zuk's that you mentioned, personally, I would pursue the Toyota import or FJ60 swap if you can do it within your budget.

MPG's probably wouldn't be too different, and size would be a big plus (the Zuk's fill up fast) and longevity. As much as I like the Zuks (I've owned a Samurai for 10 years, a 4-door Sidekick and the Vitara you all knew) I was always concerned about longevity - especially if you go over lots of rough stuff. I never had issues with any of the vehicles as far as reliability, but the Samurai did start to fall apart at about 150K (failed emissions, transmission). I would expect a similar lifespan with the other two. That said, those concerns wouldn't be an issue with a diesel swap. And having driven a Sidekick, the noise really isn't bad (I used to drive to Phoenix with 4 people in it fairly often and it was easy to converse). Although it may seem a little tinny, I always felt safe and comfortable in it. I also got about 28 pmpg in the stock Sidekick on the highway.

An option you didn't mention for a diesel swap is a Discovery I. They can be had dirt cheap - especially if you find one that has overheated (I've seen them locally kitted out with suspension mods, etc ... that have blown engines for $1000 or $1,500) You can then buy a 2.8L Powerstroke which is based on the 300TDi (If I remember correctly) and the conversion, if somebody else does it, is around 10K. I think engine, kits, etc ... can be had for under 5K (I always dreamed of doing this conversion when I had my Disco) From what I understand MPGs are in the 30s on the highway and you have a safe, comfortable, economical ride.

It will be fun to see what you end up with ...

[pwc]

the 2.8 is not that cheap, at least not the kit. the kit will be around $8K depending on exchange rates. Shop time will run you another $5K if you don't do it yourself. Otherwise, I'm going this route with a 110. the downside is it doesn't match your MPG target. Real world, people in Discoveries get around 22MPG/27MPG.

I think for the price the Cruiser might be the way to go.

[DesertRose]

Having had the Zuk's that you mentioned, personally, I would pursue the Toyota import or FJ60 swap if you can do it within your budget.

I had a sneaking suspicion, as much as I like the Zukes, after having mostly Toyotas (one 22R 2WD truck, one 22R 4WD truck, one 5VZFE 4WD truck) and one FJ55) I would not be happy with overall quality and durability.


An option you didn't mention for a diesel swap is a Discovery I. They can be had dirt cheap - especially if you find one that has overheated (I've seen them locally kitted out with suspension mods, etc ... that have blown engines for $1000 or $1,500)

Oh now this is interesting. I love the idea of that - the lux of the Disco (and love the looks). The suspension.



You can then buy a 2.8L Powerstroke which is based on the 300TDi (If I remember correctly) and the conversion, if somebody else does it, is around 10K. I think engine, kits, etc ... can be had for under 5K (I always dreamed of doing this conversion when I had my Disco) From what I understand MPGs are in the 30s on the highway and you have a safe, comfortable, economical ride.

Who makes the Powerstroke? Ford? Any reliability issues that anyone knows of? I can do some research. Fuel economy is acceptable, especially if I keep the tires smaller and more moderate.

Any other diesel conversions for Discos?

Great ideas here - keep them coming.

[jeffryscott]

The powerstroke is by International, but it is essentially Rover's 300tdi (this is all from memory, been probably three years or more since I really looked).

A donor wouldn't be too hard to find either ...

PWC would certainly know more since they are in the middle of a swap, but Discoweb should have some stuff if you dare go there ....

Why, oh why, can't we get this stuff here without all the hassle. Aaaargh.

[dieselcruiserhead]

Really your only option for something that is mildly heavy duty is a FJ60 land cruiser model.. They are still carbureted so incredcibly easy to deal with electronically (no computer, etc). But a diesel engine of some sort (isuzu 4BT1T, Cummins 4BT) and convert. Purchase a $1500 5 speed transmission of some sort (H55F toyota trans, or a NV4500 - the H555F is cheaper due to less adapters) and then you have all of the criteria. Downfall is they are much older. But much more rugged. You can get rust free good condition 60s with higher mileage and/or running problems for $3G or less..

It does take some mechanical expertise but is really not that tough.. IMO, a diesel swap is easier than a Chevy 350 swap, which people have been doing in cruisers since the 70s...

That is what I would do...

[BajaTaco]

Wow - a dual sport bike. How cool is that? I have been kicking around the idea myself. The concept of using one for light solo trips and running around town would more than offset the trips done with the larger 4wd as far as fuel burning and emissions go (especially considering I have no daily commute). The downside is the bodily injury factor. It's not a matter of "if" it's a matter of "when" and... "how bad" :smilies27 So if you factor in the cost of medical bills and time lost at work, plus all of the environmental impact of your medical care... LOL .... maybe it's a wash.

As far as picking the right vehicle - that is a tough one! I am going to hold out for the upcoming models that will be released in answer to the new diesel reg's and increasing fuel costs. Hopefully Toyota will step up to the plate.

[mountainpete]

What about a different direction?

How about a Subaru Forester or Outback wagon? Maybe a Volvo V70 XC Wagon or Audi AllRoad?

Better fuel mileage and excellent cargo capacity and they fit a lot of your criteria and are still quite capable on fireroads, etc.

Pete

[DesertRose]

Really your only option for something that is mildly heavy duty is a FJ60 land cruiser model.. They are still carbureted so incredcibly easy to deal with electronically (no computer, etc). But a diesel engine of some sort (isuzu 4BT1T, Cummins 4BT) and convert. Purchase a $1500 5 speed transmission of some sort (H55F toyota trans, or a NV4500 - the H555F is cheaper due to less adapters) and then you have all of the criteria. Downfall is they are much older. But much more rugged. You can get rust free good condition 60s with higher mileage and/or running problems for $3G or less..

It does take some mechanical expertise but is really not that tough.. IMO, a diesel swap is easier than a Chevy 350 swap, which people have been doing in cruisers since the 70s...

That is what I would do...

What started all this was access (right now) to a decent (but not great) condition FJ60 we might be able to get for $2000. Trouble is the interior/exterior is not that great (fair amount of work), and neither is the rest - the transmission would need a little work (four speed manual, better than auto), no AC compressor, leaking radiator, etc. Spector has a low mile Toyota turbo-diesel w/tran for $7000 but we could probably find one w/out the transmission for a lot less. Also probably don't need the turbo, not sure.

BTW, I love your Cruiser - here was mine:

http://www.jandrhanson.com/rh/RH-FJ55.jpg

I used it lots for beach diving in Sonora . . . and a great trip to Baja with our kayaks.

There is something great about "Cruiser time" - slow and steady!

[DesertRose]

What about a different direction?

How about a Subaru Forester or Outback wagon? Maybe a Volvo V70 XC Wagon or Audi AllRoad?

Better fuel mileage and excellent cargo capacity and they fit a lot of your criteria and are still quite capable on fireroads, etc.

Pete

I looked at those, but mileage is still under 25 for gas. :oops:

Also - price. Volvo and Audi would blow my budget and then some (can't finance more) and I wouldn't get my moto!

I know, I ask too much . . .

[DesertRose]

Wow - a dual sport bike. How cool is that? I have been kicking around the idea myself. The concept of using one for light solo trips and running around town would more than offset the trips done with the larger 4wd as far as fuel burning and emissions go (especially considering I have no daily commute). The downside is the bodily injury factor. It's not a matter of "if" it's a matter of "when" and... "how bad" :smilies27 So if you factor in the cost of medical bills and time lost at work, plus all of the environmental impact of your medical care... LOL .... maybe it's a wash.

As far as picking the right vehicle - that is a tough one! I am going to hold out for the upcoming models that will be released in answer to the new diesel reg's and increasing fuel costs. Hopefully Toyota will step up to the plate.

Ha! I wouldn't use the moto for town - too dangerous (especially out where we live).

I do wish I could afford a new vehicle, but it's not in the cards for me. Hence the search for an older one . . .

[Martinjmpr]

How rugged does this vehicle have to be? My last vehicle was a Subaru Outback wagon and it surprised me with its abilities off-road. Certainly no rock crawler but at least as capable as most Cute-Utes/Crossovers. A Forester might even be better since it's got shorter overhangs front and rear. There are performance parts available from Australia (including a low-range if you have the manual tranny.) As for MPG I routinely got 22-25 in the city and 28-30 on the highway and that was with an automatic.

Diesel conversions might be tough but other than that, as a daily driver with mild off-road abilities you could certainly do worse than an Outback/Forester/Baja.

[mountainpete]

I looked at those, but mileage is still under 25 for gas. :oops:

Also - price. Volvo and Audi would blow my budget and then some (can't finance more) and I wouldn't get my moto!

I know, I ask too much . . .

You are asking for a lot :shakin:

Another option: Toyota Matrix 4WD. I had one as a service loaner once - very nice and actually lots of room. But not very good for much other then easy fire roads due to the low clearance.

By the way, I have an 05 CR-V. You won't be happy with the fuel economy. It's my one big disappointment besides the fact that it's a bit underpowered with 4 people in it.

Pete

[Scott Brady]

I like the Suzuki route. Doing some work on your Tacoma might be a good option too. Narrow, street/mileage biased tires and some engine efficiency work could get you into the 22-23 range. Then save for a Diesel conversion for the Tacoma. It doesnt quite get you to 30 mpg, but it would save you a lot of $$$

[bigreen505]

I still like the idea of putting a VW diesel in your Rover.

I'm also not convinced that you are going to reach your 30 mpg in a 5,000-6,000 lb. diesel cruiser. Perhaps occasionally, but not always. If you are looking at bang for buck, I think the Disco I option merits some consideration if you can find one inexpensively. Initial cost and restoration (i.e. everything besides the diesel swap) are going to be your biggest variables and probably the piece most likely to throw the project over budget.

Subaru Outback is about 22-26, a couple higher if you run synthetics all the way through (engine, transmission, diffs). Forrester is a little lower. I think the AWD system is a major culprit and the engines scream for a sixth gear as there is no real cruising gear.

What mileage is Joaquin getting in Mayahaul with the diesel?

[durango_60]

Subaru Outback is about 22-26, a couple higher if you run synthetics all the way through (engine, transmission, diffs). ?


We consistently get 28-30 with my wifes 2004 Outback. If I were looking for a light duty road trip and dirt road vehicle I would look no further than the Subaru dealership, it has been a flawless vehicle.

[bigreen505]

We consistently get 28-30 with my wifes 2004 Outback. If I were looking for a light duty road trip and dirt road vehicle I would look no further than the Subaru dealership, it has been a flawless vehicle.

Wow, I'm jealous! My wifes 2002 gets 23-26. My sister's 2001 runs about 24-28 with 27.6 being a solid highway average running full synthetics. One thing with the Subarus, at least the 2001, is the speedometer is very accurate when matched against a GPS, so I have confidence that mileage figures people report are accurate.

[teotwaki]

I like the Suzuki route. Doing some work on your Tacoma might be a good option too. Narrow, street/mileage biased tires and some engine efficiency work could get you into the 22-23 range. Then save for a Diesel conversion for the Tacoma. It doesnt quite get you to 30 mpg, but it would save you a lot of $$$

It would be nice if there were aftermarket kits for manual locking hubs for newer Tacomas and 4Runners. That could eliminate a little more drivetrain drag. Also eliminate all of the excess weight and aerodynamic drag as much as possible. We add in sliders, bumpers, second batteries and fridges and its no wonder that our mileage goes down. Emulating the ultralight backpackers might be a good compromise.

A question for Desert Rose: 20MPG sounds average to good for the Taco so will you have to give up payload and space in order to achieve 30 MPG in another vehicle?

[durango_60]

Wow, I'm jealous! My wifes 2002 gets 23-26. My sister's 2001 runs about 24-28 with 27.6 being a solid highway average running full synthetics. One thing with the Subarus, at least the 2001, is the speedometer is very accurate when matched against a GPS, so I have confidence that mileage figures people report are accurate.

I'll be sure to thank my wife for being light footed.:26_7_2:

[DesertRose]

It would be nice if there were aftermarket kits for manual locking hubs for newer Tacomas and 4Runners. That could eliminate a little more drivetrain drag. Also eliminate all of the excess weight and aerodynamic drag as much as possible. We add in sliders, bumpers, second batteries and fridges and its no wonder that our mileage goes down. Emulating the ultralight backpackers might be a good compromise.

A question for Desert Rose: 20MPG sounds average to good for the Taco so will you have to give up payload and space in order to achieve 30 MPG in another vehicle?

Good question. I have a lot of unused payload and space in the Taco - I'd rather have the option of 4 seats for friends and family.

I like where you're going with your query: I'll paraphrase it to can we do more with less?

I really had thought I could find something in the cross-over SUV or CUTE-UTE (love that!) but none of those is really "less" in the grand scheme of wanting to be more ecological (less cost to environment) and economical (less cost to me). I would not gain much economy, and I'd give up a great vehicle (Tacoma) that does a heck of a lot more on the trail.

See the PDF of the spreadsheet I did - first post. Not a lot of difference. That's why I ended up steering away from the Subarus, because they didn't seem to have the mileage that I was aiming for (closer to 30) - though some people seem to differ with what I'm reading on Consumer Reports. I think driving styles have a lot to do with it!

But maybe I should revisit my original goals and background, to keep on track.

Why I'm considering doing this:

- I thought it would be interesting to try to find a real 'ecological' and 'economical' vehicle that is comfortable on the highway, easy enough to drive in the city, and could be used for overlanding (we already own a superb FJ40 and a project Land Rover 88 - so do I really need a third super-trail-worthy vehicle?).

- I do this every once in a while (swap vehicles) - I love vehicles, especially 4x4s, and though I adore my Tacoma, it has its faults: poor gas economy for its size, seats only 2, and the cargo area is inconvenient (I loved the convenience of my 4-door FJ55, for example).

So in the spirit of some recent discussions in the Conservation section about environmentally conscious overlanding, I wanted to see if it was possible to find a truck that fit my criteria.

Below is a list of criteria, and my true secret goal revealed. :roost:


ECO-OVERLANDER PROJECT
“Economical & Ecological Overlanding Vehicle”

Primary Goal:

- Replace 2000 4WD Tacoma TRD (V6, Xcab,188K miles, OME, rear-locker, ARE topper, ARB)
- Est. sale price $11,000

Secret Goal:

- Have enough $ left over to buy a 250cc dual-sport moto :luxhello:

Criteria for new vehicle:

- Must be high-fuel-economy (i.e. - over 30 mpg average if possible; I don't consider 20 mpg to be remotely economical under my definition)
- Diesel or able to convert to diesel a major plus
- Seating for four
- Prefer 4WD or AWD; low-range very desirable but necessary? not sure
- Comfortable on highway
- Airbags
- NHTSA rating 4-5 a big plus

I'll add, for clarity:

- Able to do light overlanding (no rock-crawling) and exploration on dirt roads and some backcountry. Remember, we've got an FJ40.

- Would be nice to have a "highway" comfortable vehicle, and one that's a little easier to drive in town than the LC (though I do get shapely biceps from driving it).


I frankly am surprised I can't find something like the Outback that gets good mileage. [And I'm going to keep saying, I don't think 20-23 mpg is "good" mileage - remember the 70s energy crisis? Hondas came in that were getting 40mpg - now that's good!]

I keep leaning more and more toward diesel . . .

[dieselcruiserhead]

thanks for the note.. Yes I love my 55/s, I was a "FJ60 guy" for years but I dig the narrowness and uniqueness of the rare FJ55 models.. And the diesel conversions are great.. I forgot airbags.. Proffitt's Cruisers is doing turnkey diesel swaps into 80 series cruisers now for about $12G.. A lot of course, but you can get a 80 with blown motor here and there for $3G or less... Auto sucks though.. Here is a link to their site on it...

http://www.proffittscruisers.com/diesel/index.html
http://www.proffittscruisers.com/diesel/cummins/index.html

[slooowr6]

30 mpg is going to be really hard to reach. Too bad there is no small diesel cross over cars. The TDI jetta gets 45MPG!! I'm interesting to see what you end up with! :lurk:

[DesertRose]

30 mpg is going to be really hard to reach. Too bad there is no small diesel cross over cars. The TDI jetta gets 45MPG!! I'm interesting to see what you end up with! :lurk:

I agree!:yikes:

Maybe one of these makes more sense:

:26_16_2:

But if you look at the comparative costs of the vehicles by fuel type/economy, you see it's really splitting hairs if you don't shoot for 30 . . .

It's been said before: I ask too much!

Less is more . . . do more with less . . .

[bigreen505]

I agree. If you are already running close to 20 mpg, you have to be at 30 before you see any real financial or range benefits.

[slooowr6]

Shooting for 30mpg is what make this hunt fun! :D

[dieselcruiserhead]

my estimates are that a VW TDI would actually get 30 mpg or close to it, easily, in a Toyota pickup. This has been a swap I have been considering a long time as well. Problem is, all this is a lot of work. It has been done by several people, I'll dig up some links...

Here is another diesel swap company. These guys have it right, in my opinion...
http://www.dieseltoyz.com/

ACME adapters, which does mostly Samurai stuff, does a TDI kit to a Toyota pickup adapter. It is expensive, but I think it would definitely be a worthy swap. Problem is, both are fuel managed electronically (ie computer). I would figure out a clean way to remove the Toyota computer system, and use the TDI with a full computer setup. Boosted to as high as 130 hp, there is not much fuel mileage loss.

Again, the other issue is these are all used vehicles. Again, there are Dodge, Ford, all sorts of diesels coming out. I am upset that they won't put a manual in a quad cab Tacoma.. So I can't say that Toyota necessarily "gets it" but I have a feeling by 2015, we may see some neat diesel options from Toyota, finally, again...

Another option is a Benz 5 cyl turbo. But there is no way you will touch 30 mpg with that setup unfortunately... MAybe 20, and right back at where you are. Except you can run bio...

The Isuzu 4BD engines are killer too. Would require custom adapters though. We are putting one in a FJ62 currently...

[dieselcruiserhead]

Here are some links courtesy of my red star membership at Pirate (totally lame they charge that.. to search ... :rolleyes: )

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=354974&highlight=volkswagen


http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=554084&highlight=dieseltoyz
Really good info on the dieseltoyz swaps. I believe they are in Texas. I really like their technique and outlook on the diesel conversions. Everything seems 100% accurate and correct of everything I've seen them say on the forums and on their web site...
EDIT: on this page, they are claiming 35 mpg from some of their setups...
http://www.dieseltoyz.com/index-2.html

[ChuckB]

Here is another diesel swap company. These guys have it right, in my opinion...
http://www.dieseltoyz.com/


The Isuzu 4BD engines are killer too. Would require custom adapters though. We are putting one in a FJ62 currently...

I was going to post this link as well. This way you can keep the Tacoma.

I personally would like to go the 4BT or Isuzu route when $$$ permits into a 55/60. Only a Cruiser will do!!!

[BKCowGod]

For light overlanding and great on-road, check out the Hyundai Tucson. I rent them out regularly and always get rave reviews from my customers. I love driving it too, and the mileage is great.

[pwc]

Hmmmmm....what about just lifting a Passat Wagon. they hold a lot!!

http://thecareyadventures.com/2005-yellowstoneNP/050908-182952-5825_std.jpg

[mountainpete]

Hmmmmm....what about just lifting a Passat Wagon. they hold a lot!!


The Passat Wagons do hold a lot of gear, but my experience with one was so sad. I purchased a beautiful brand new P-Wag in 2002 with the 1.8T. In 14 months of ownership it was in the shop over 60 days! :yikes:

It got to the point the VW was going to buy it back, but the deal wasn't very good. So I simply got rid of it.

So for me - the Passat was a poor choice.

[pwc]

On the other end of a spectrum, that shots was frmo teh begining of a road trip from Seattle to Yellowstone/Grand Teton (the compressed bags are sleeping bags and tent). I had the oil changed before hand. that was it. Same thing for a Disneyland roadrip.

We beat on the thing and other than having the timing belt changed, it stays on the road. If I could lift it and use it off road, I'd do it. it's a TDI and gets 42 on road trips and 38MPG otherwise on biodiesel.

[dieselcruiserhead]

that is great.. I have a friend who frequently does the same thing with a passat of the same color, TDI & everything... Neat :)

[DesertRose]

Hmmmmm....what about just lifting a Passat Wagon. they hold a lot!!


That's so great!

I will take a look at Passats - nice compromise if I stop thinking 4WD.

PS, it looks like if any of those compression straps let go, your Passat would end up blown all over the landscape!

[DesertRose]

Here are some links courtesy of my red star membership at Pirate (totally lame they charge that.. to search ... :rolleyes: )

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=354974&highlight=volkswagen


http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=554084&highlight=dieseltoyz
Really good info on the dieseltoyz swaps. I believe they are in Texas. I really like their technique and outlook on the diesel conversions. Everything seems 100% accurate and correct of everything I've seen them say on the forums and on their web site...
EDIT: on this page, they are claiming 35 mpg from some of their setups...
http://www.dieseltoyz.com/index-2.html

Thanks for this great link - the factory Toyota 3.0L 4-cyl TD sounds incredible. Dieseltoyz sounds like a great company - and the engines can be adapted to earlier (90up) 4Runners - now we're talking!

Although I adore my Taco, again - it seems dumb for us to have 3 low-fuel-economy 2-seater 4x4s. Most of the time my Taco's huge cargo space is a dust-collector or used for hauling our trash and recycling! (we have a utility trailer for that if I got another vehicle).

Great stuff, everybody - thanks for taking the time!

Today I might be a little less active, because, um, I need to work!

[Jonathan Hanson]

My nomination for this project is either an FJ60 with a Toyota diesel/five-speed swap - easily done - or a Discovery with a 2.8 diesel/five-speed swap - also fairly easily done. Since we tend to keep vehicles for long periods and long mileages (and we live five miles down a dirt road), I'm suspicious of the durability of the cute-utes. A friend of ours in Phoenix has an HJ45 Troopie he imported from Australia, with a 2H diesel. He gets 26 mpg on the highway at 65 mph, with the stock four-speed. I'm convinced the same engine in a far-more-aerodynamic FJ60, with a five-speed, could touch 30mpg, retaining all the superb expedition qualities of the 60 series.

The Disco is attractive, too: Great comfort and off-road capability, good capacity, and a lot of style. However, I'd be . . . mildy, I guess . . . concerned about reliability of ancillary systems, even with a diesel and manual transmission swap. But the cost, if we found one with a bad stock engine, would be doable.

[Jonathan Hanson]

In other circumstances, it would be interesting to see how much mileage could be squeezed from a V6 auto Tacoma. Narrower tires, manual hubs, headers and exhaust, a deck plate intake mod, and, um, probably removing the bloody great ARB bumper up front, might get you to 23 mpg or so.

But Roseann has already caught the fatal itch. She wants something different. Glad she doesn't feel the same way about husbands . . .

[DesertRose]

But Roseann has already caught the fatal itch. She wants something different. Glad she doesn't feel the same way about husbands . . .

Too many miles invested in you, hon.:jump:

And don't forget, I want a motorcycle, too!! :roost:

Life is too short to always do the practical thing.

:elkgrin:

[Kermit]

A BMW GS650 or KTM640....with side cars on either side...60-70 mpg and seating for 4....solves the daul sport quest too!

[slooowr6]

I'll throw my 2c in for the passat. I've a 98 A4 it has the same 1.8t engine and it's pretty much the same car just different badge and interior. The 1.8t is a very nice engine and durable but it's the other little things that break. I do all my maintance myself, I changed the timing belt at 90k, it took me a day. Now the sun roof does not open, there must be a broken pully in there somewhere in the track I just don't want to spend the time and $ to fix it. The drive side rear window does not open, a plastic pully in the track broke I don't have passenger often so I did not fix that. Water pump leaks and was replaced when doing the timing belt change. Oil press sensor leaks got this one fixed. Head gasket leaks at 120k got this one fixed. The center door lock pneumatic pump leaks at 80k got this fixed with a used part, the pump is very expensive I remember. The door locks are driven by air on these VW/Audi. Upper ball joint worn out at 110k relaced these, tie rod end worn at the same time and got this replaced.
Over all I still like the car but in compare my hand-me-down 86 Hoda Prelude it needs more attentation. The little A4 gets great milage on freeway, 28mpg but on locale street is another story 18-19mpg. With the enging getting older the turbo lag is getting more and more.
Just some owner experience want to share so you can know what you might be in for:elkgrin:

[Grim Reaper]

The problem is air bags, diesel and mpg and money.

Anything newer then 95 that will have the bags you want is going to be near impossible to make the $11k with diesel swap. Newer then 2000 impossible.

Personally....I LOVE air cooled VW's. I HATE water cooled VW's. Last good VW rolled off the line about 83. They haven't built anything half as problem free as a Toyota anything since then. I don’t think I would ever feel good about the TDI.

Zuk’s are cool but the TDI in a bigger Zuk is going to be a Dog.

I very seriously considered putting a 2L-TE in my 86 4Runner. It is a bolt in. and I live 30 minutes from www.jarcoinc.com It was going to be $2600 for the half cut and then god knows how much time and other little things to make it work. I figured $3k as the bare minimum to do the conversion. The 1Kz are $4-5k. Doing the math over what it cost to rebuilt my 22RE I would have to drive the thing about 200K to break even on the fuel savings.....I plan to drive it a lot but I doubt I will have it for another 200k. Then we get into the whole problem that these motors were not offered in the US so parts are going to be a problem.

You are NOT going to save money doing a diesel swap in anything. It will in fact cost you more. If you are doing the swap its for the cool factor and nothing else.

If you can get over the diesel swap I would say you best bet is a light 4 door like a Rav4 or Vitara. You can make the money and features goal easily.

If you are set on the Diesel then the only way to make the money goal is find something like a 95 or older 4Runner. If you can find a 22R equipped 4Runner the 2L-TE is a bolt in. The only part that won’t be plug and play is the harness. You will have to make it a left hand drive harness. Tedious but not hard.

Blown up 3.0 4Runners are pretty common for cheap. No direct bolt in diesel but you could fabricate the motor mounts and put the 2L or the 1Kz in it and probably stay under $8k.I think 96 was the first passenger side airbag. Not sure when driver side came in.

[TeleScooby]

OK, so a couple of thoughts on this one:

First, as a Forester driver, I gotta say, can't go wrong with a Scooby! Find a 2000-2004 5mt with reasonable mileage, import some bits (bull bars, sump guard and lift kit) from Australia, add a basket to the roof and you're good to go! You'll likely see in the high 20s-low 30s freeway, assuming a reasonable street tire, have plenty of space for light overlanding, etc...

Check out http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/ (SubaruForester.org)

for more info...I'm Seattleforester over there.

Second comment, what about a first gen RAV4? They get great mileage, there are lift kits, etc...pretty widely available, they're Toyotas...and when/if it ever dies, you can do the same diesel swap as with a zuke...

I've been looking online, and a reasonably low mileage '99 or 2000 would go for less than $6000...

[devinsixtyseven]

This may be a shot in the dark, and probably TeleScooby would know more, but I've heard of forced induction on Foresters...would that get the mileage consistently in the 30s?

...IIRC it was something about having the same engine as the WRX...? Therefore access to the same modifications?

-Sean

[TeleScooby]

This may be a shot in the dark, and probably TeleScooby would know more, but I've heard of forced induction on Foresters...would that get the mileage consistently in the 30s?

...IIRC it was something about having the same engine as the WRX...? Therefore access to the same modifications?

-Sean

The XT model, the T is of course for Turbo, has the same 2.5 litre turbo engine as the WRX. nowhere near the mileage and premium fuel only. My X has the same 2.5 litres, just no turbo and imo more then enough power for daily driving and light offroading...

[slooowr6]

The XT model, the T is of course for Turbo, has the same 2.5 litre turbo engine as the WRX. nowhere near the mileage and premium fuel only. My X has the same 2.5 litres, just no turbo and imo more then enough power for daily driving and light offroading...

Non-turbo is better if you don't look at the hp number. The power is more liner, the engine will last longer, don't need premium, and better mpg. After having A4 for 9 years, I don't want to get a turbo anymore.

[DesertRose]

You are NOT going to save money doing a diesel swap in anything. It will in fact cost you more. If you are doing the swap its for the cool factor and nothing else.

But the project is not just Economical (saving money for me) I'd like it to be Ecological (saving fuel and/or emissions) - so burning biodiesel or SVO (veg oil) is of huge interest to me.

I do realize the diesel swap is a Pandora's box, so I've also been looking at imports.

Jarco looks interesting, by the way - good folks, it seems.

I may end up with something completely different than I started looking for, but this whole process is extremely valuable to me , and fun!

[DesertRose]

OK, so a couple of thoughts on this one:

First, as a Forester driver, I gotta say, can't go wrong with a Scooby! Find a 2000-2004 5mt with reasonable mileage, import some bits (bull bars, sump guard and lift kit) from Australia, add a basket to the roof and you're good to go! You'll likely see in the high 20s-low 30s freeway, assuming a reasonable street tire, have plenty of space for light overlanding, etc...

Check out http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/ (SubaruForester.org)

for more info...I'm Seattleforester over there.

Second comment, what about a first gen RAV4? They get great mileage, there are lift kits, etc...pretty widely available, they're Toyotas...and when/if it ever dies, you can do the same diesel swap as with a zuke...

I've been looking online, and a reasonably low mileage '99 or 2000 would go for less than $6000...

I do really like the first-generation RAV4 - very reasonable (just saw a one-owner one for sale in a retirement community - probably very pampered! - with all the power goodies and in fabulous shape, under 90K miles, for $5000).

Can you really do a diesel swap on the RAV?

Would have to get over the Cute-Ute thing, though! I am not the demographic for an SUV designed to appeal to women. Favorite truck of all time was my big green FJ55. And what lovely biceps it gave me!

I'm still checking out Subarus. The reported fuel economies are so far off from Consumer Reports, tho.

Guess it depends on the lightness of foot! (I'm not necessarily prone to being light of foot . . . )

[66Landy]

Hi,
What about this on Ebay? Already has the diesel in it and it's a Toyota?
Carey

[Martinjmpr]

I regularly got an "indicated" 28mpg on my Outback. However, the speedo was somewhat "fast" and the odo somewhat generous compared to the GPS readings (i.e. the odometer would show an error of about +4% of indicated miles) so my guess is that actual mileage was probably more like 26.5-27.

Seems to me the only way to break through that barrier will be to go with something a lot lighter. My old 85 Toyota PU regularly got 25mpg on the highway, but that was with no power anything (including power steering) and a regular cab. Modern vehicles have so much (IMO unneccessary) stuff on them that it's hard to break the 30mpg barrier with anything other than a micro-car like the Fit.

[Maddmatt]

I'll throw in too, just for fun. We've got an '01 Outback, has been a great car for six years now, but 30mpg is a fantasy. Routinely get 26-27 fully loaded on the highway, with a Thule box on the roof, but that is the high end of the spectrum. Around town 22-24 is more likely. Great in snow though, as this winter proved - probably not a requirement in your area.

For reference, I got 24-26 in my '92 Toyota pickup with the 22RE. Best mileage ever was 28, that was with an inverted aluminum canoe on it. I figured the canoe acted as a sail.

I'm sure there's something out there for you, and I'm enjoying watching the search!
-Matt

[DesertRose]

Hi,
What about this on Ebay? Already has the diesel in it and it's a Toyota?
Carey


Tease!

No link - ?

[DesertRose]

Europe got a fantastic RAV4 diesel in 01; South Africa is getting them this year. I don't think Canada got them, unfortunately. Here's a tease [I think they measure by Imperial gallons, so the fuel economy comparison to here is a bit off]:


Latest technology, common rail, 2.0-litre D-4D diesel
Exceptional fuel economy, low noise, low emissions
Available in the same four trim levels as RAV4 petrol (NV, NRG, GX and VX)
Excellent combined fuel consumption of 39.8 mpg
0-62mph in 12.1 seconds, maximum speed of 106mph
WIL (Whiplash Injury Lessening) front seats, ABS with EBD (Electronic Brakeforce Distribution) and twin front airbags standard on all grades
MPV-style versatility with rear seats designed to slide, fold, tumble and be removed
Air conditioning standard on all grades
Remote alarm and Thatcham Category One immobiliser fitted as standard
Roof rails standard on all grades
Offered with three-year/ 60,000 mile warranty as standard
On sale in the UK from 1 September 2001

The RAV4 D-4D exploits the very latest Toyota high pressure, common rail diesel technology and will be available in both three and five door bodystyles in the UK from September. The new RAV4 diesel will offer customers excellent performance, smooth power and outstanding fuel economy.

The RAV4 diesel is the latest in a rapidly introduced line of diesel-engined cars by Toyota. Corolla, Avensis, Previa (and soon Yaris) have all seen the addition of diesel to the range.

Excellent Performance

The new versions of the RAV4 will be fitted with the latest generation 2.0-litre, Toyota D-4D common rail diesel engine. This develops 114bhp (85kW) at 4,000rpm and offers constant torque of 250Nm across the power band from 1,800rpm to 3,000rpm.

Power has been increased by 5bhp over the previous 2.0-litre D-4D engine used on Avensis saloon with the fitment of a variable nozzle turbocharger. Meanwhile, harmful emissions have been decreased with the addition of cooling to the exhaust gas recirculation system. The new RAV4 D-4D complies with European Step III emissions limits.

The high torque output and low fuel consumption of the D-4D engine adds to the impressive list of features for the RAV4 – the fashionable Sports Utility Vehicle which is equally happy either on or off-road.

Fuel consumption is outstanding – 39.8mpg for both the three and five door models on the combined European cycle. Yet performance is still excellent – top speed of 106mph and acceleration from rest to 62mph in 12.1 seconds. The new diesel-engined versions of RAV4 will be available only with full-time four-wheel drive and a five speed manual gearbox.

The New RAV4

Since launch across Europe last summer, RAV4 has proved again to be one of the most popular vehicles in the small SUV market – comfortably beating Toyota sales targets. The new RAV4 has built on the reputation of the original vehicle, launched in 1994 as the first SUV to offer GTi handling and performance with a more rugged appearance and involving driving style.

The RAV4 offers customers more space, better performance, better ride and better economy than other vehicles in the market. Until now it has been available with a choice of 1.8-litre engine with two-wheel drive or 2.0-litre petrol engine four-wheel drive.

More than 30,000 new RAV4s have been sold in Europe in less than 12 months since launch with just over two-thirds of the sales being five door models. Countries where RAV4 has proved a particular success include the UK, Germany, France, and Italy.



Warming up to this theme now . . .

The idea of Lite Expedition (toss out the Cute-Ute) and think: Backpacking corollary to say, Horsepacking.

:coffeedrink:

[DesertRose]

A BMW GS650 or KTM640....with side cars on either side...60-70 mpg and seating for 4....solves the daul sport quest too!

Hey, I like that!

But Scott would ask: Where do you put the Engel?

[Jonathan Hanson]

The central problem with fuel economy is this: If Roseann buys something best described by passers-by as "cute," our gas mileage will go all to hell, because I'll refuse to be seen in it and will be forced to follow her on all our trips in the FJ40 or Grendel.

She keeps mentioning cheetah-spot paint jobs . . .

[Scott Brady]

What about an Escape Hybrid? We can ExPo it out too, as there are lifts and other goodies available (even a snorkel!)

29 MPG in the city! It is billed as the most fuel effecient SUV on the planet.

[Christian P.]

What about an Escape Hybrid? We can ExPo it out too, as there are lifts and other goodies available (even a snorkel!)

29 MPG in the city! It is billed as the most fuel effecient SUV on the planet.

This is a very interesting subject. Unfortunately, an Escape Hybrid is not intended to go offroad. The rear axle is powered by an electric motor which would probably not react very well when crossing rivers.

This is one of the main reason why I decided to buy a TroopCarrier in Australia rather than getting something here. I could not find anything decent for an expedition truck that was getting over 20 mpg. My Troopie gets over 20 mpg fully loaded. When you are on the road, fuel is most likely the biggest expense you are facing. Beside beers and wines.

The Land Rover 110 Tdi is supposed to get close to 30 mpg, but I never had one so I can't confirm. I might buy one just to check...

:rally_guys:

Christian

[Kermit]

Hey, I like that!

But Scott would ask: Where do you put the Engel?


I have solutions for every problem...;)

http://www.roadmancampers.com/index.html

[gjackson]

The Land Rover 110 Tdi is supposed to get close to 30 mpg, but I never had one so I can't confirm. I might buy one just to check...

Hmmm. . .not quite. I can get 28 on the highway and 23- 24 around town. Of course mine weighs 7000lbs and is built like a bread truck, so I'm not helping anything out there. Bigger intercooler is supposed to improve things. May have to do that. . .

cheers

[Scott Brady]

The rear axle is powered by an electric motor


That is very cool and very uncool all at the same time. Interesting technology solution there!



Roseann,

Just so you know what my vote would be, and I am certainly tempted myself:

Discovery 5-Speed with 300TDI. Pretty much the best of everything in my book. I had the chance to drive one for a few days while in France. If consistently got 28-30 MPG and was great to drive. All the Land Rover payload and trail performance (plus comfortable seating for four/five) and great mileage. There is a guy bringing those motors in now, I will try to find out who he was.

[upcruiser]

I'm not positive, but my understanding on the Escape Hybrid is that the 4wd version has a fwd biased awd system that sends torque to the rear wheels when detecting slip to the front wheels. Both the eletric motor and the gas motor motivate the front primarily. The front and the rear brakes contribute to the regenerative braking, perhaps that is what you are thinking of??

[wd40]

Hey, Guys!

Diesel always gets my vote... Too many heavy metals, composites, and complicated works in the hybrids. Like that's good for the environment.

Too bad there is limited access to decent diesels in the US. All we have access to is the 25+ year old rusted hulks from the rest of the world. Decent Rovers and Toyotas can be had from the Middle East and Australia. They're starting to understand what they're worth to us, too.

My daily driver is a VW TDI that sips 46mpg. I went for a 1982 Toyota HJ47 and imported it from Australia. It has the Toyota 2H straight 6 diesel engine.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/warfin/Misc/th_IMG_0767.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/warfin/Misc/IMG_0767.jpg
It's rediculously simple and burned less than half a tank getting 26mpg round trip from Phoenix to Tucson... With 2 kayaks strapped to the roof for half the trip! It's as aerodynamic as the proverbial brick crapper and will never have the trappings of modern life, like airbags. I'm not too worried about that because the big 'roo bar scares the hell out of anyone near me. It was used as an ambulance in a copper mine, and still has the original '80's Boogie Nights paint job and pin striping (Where's my Members Only jacket???). I'm convinced with 3.70 gears and/or a H55 5-speed this thing will easily break the 30mpg barrier... Or at least break the speed limit... Throw in readily available FJ40 disc brakes, lockers, suspension, better seats, and upgraded A/C and it'll go anywhere.

The downside... Engine parts are interesting to scavenge, I have to do most of my own engine work (it's a very simple engine, though), and I have to go through restaurant drive-thru's in reverse...

If I didn't go the 2H route, I'd consider a later BJ42 with a 3B engine and throw a turbo on it.

I'll bring it round next time I take it to Tucson :-)

[mike h]

We use a Ford Escape Hybrid as our primary campus parking enforcement vehicle, and the gas mileage sucks... as in low teens. We attribute it to the fact that the speeds never exceed 25 mph, so the electric motor never gets to do its stuff - forcing the truck to rely mostly on gasoline. So I would suspect, in 4wd, on trails, the same thing would be an issue. We need 4wd for winter, even in parking lot situations, and the officers prefer the higher sightlines of an SUV to scan parking lots. We wanted to be PC, but in hindsight we get worse mileage than a non-hybrid since we drive it so slowly.


Bruce Elfstrom has a very capable eco-rig project in the works:

http://www.overlandexperts.com/bj75biodieseloffroadtruck.html

m.

[Maddmatt]

We use a Ford Escape Hybrid as our primary campus parking enforcement vehicle, and the gas mileage sucks... as in low teens. We attribute it to the fact that the speeds never exceed 25 mph, so the electric motor never gets to do its stuff - forcing the truck to rely mostly on gasoline. So I would suspect, in 4wd, on trails, the same thing would be an issue. We need 4wd for winter, even in parking lot situations, and the officers prefer the higher sightlines of an SUV to scan parking lots. We wanted to be PC, but in hindsight we get worse mileage than a non-hybrid since we drive it so slowly.


m.

Sorry to hi-jack, but I guess I misunderstood how hybrids work. I would have thought that lots of slow speed driving, and repeated brake application, would have boosted a hybrid's mileage through the roof! That's disheartening to hear that real world mileage has been so poor for you.

[DesertRose]

Hey, Guys!

Diesel always gets my vote... Too many heavy metals, composites, and complicated works in the hybrids. Like that's good for the environment.

Too bad there is limited access to decent diesels in the US. All we have access to is the 25+ year old rusted hulks from the rest of the world. Decent Rovers and Toyotas can be had from the Middle East and Australia. They're starting to understand what they're worth to us, too.

My daily driver is a VW TDI that sips 46mpg. I went for a 1982 Toyota HJ47 and imported it from Australia. It has the Toyota 2H straight 6 diesel engine.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/warfin/Misc/th_IMG_0767.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/warfin/Misc/IMG_0767.jpg
It's rediculously simple and burned less than half a tank getting 26mpg round trip from Phoenix to Tucson... With 2 kayaks strapped to the roof for half the trip! It's as aerodynamic as the proverbial brick crapper and will never have the trappings of modern life, like airbags. I'm not too worried about that because the big 'roo bar scares the hell out of anyone near me. It was used as an ambulance in a copper mine, and still has the original '80's Boogie Nights paint job and pin striping (Where's my Members Only jacket???). I'm convinced with 3.70 gears and/or a H55 5-speed this thing will easily break the 30mpg barrier... Or at least break the speed limit... Throw in readily available FJ40 disc brakes, lockers, suspension, better seats, and upgraded A/C and it'll go anywhere.

The downside... Engine parts are interesting to scavenge, I have to do most of my own engine work (it's a very simple engine, though), and I have to go through restaurant drive-thru's in reverse...

If I didn't go the 2H route, I'd consider a later BJ42 with a 3B engine and throw a turbo on it.

I'll bring it round next time I take it to Tucson :-)

Welcome, WD40! Hey, I bet I know where those kayaks in Tucson came from :sombrero:

Who did you use to import the HJ47? I am seriously considering that route, too - but a slightly more comfy model (we already have 2 of the "I'm pedalling as fast as I can" on the highway Cruiser and Rover).

Have you looked into alternative fuels? The GoldenFuels SVO system is interesting in that you don't have to refine your own fuel, it burns in situ - foraging for used oil from fast-food joints would be interesting for sure!

Can't wait to see that amazing JH!

(I'm still laughing over the drive-thru-backwards crack - we should do that and videotape it! We can bring Grendel and all do it!)

[DesertRose]

I wanted to share this post/discussion that ended up in the "Can I be an environmentalist" thread in Conservation - it's apropos here:


I'm going to say this. Unless your current engine is unreliable, then I wouldn't even consider a swap right now. Run it until it is no longer reliable and maximize the service life of the equipment.

If the vehicle is still serviceable at the end of the engine life, then by all means, consider a re-power. What better way to recycle a whole vehicle???

Great point - But I have a Tacoma, I'll be an old lady before it dies :sombrero:

No, I'm sorry to be flippant. I have considered all that indeed. But would I be neutral-consumption if I sell the 2000 Taco and buy a 1998 RAV4 and then drive it til it's pooped, then put a Toyota diesel in it? The Taco will still be servicable for someone for a long time, as would the RAV4, for me.



And living a lie but writing a fat check to the environmental lobby complex does NOT make you an environmentalist.

I'm struggling with this topic as "carbon credit trading" is gaining steam in the Third World. I hate the fact a polluter can buy a free pass - but then again, if the money is used to support significant assistance to quality of life in a country that has no means - is that bad?



Not only that, but look at the big picture. Do you waste in other ways you could reduce???

I can only speak for myself: I work at home, we live in a solar powered home that is tiny, we are building a bigger house with 60% recycled material (rastra block), we have our own well, we don't buy hardly any packaged food, I buy local meat and produce when possible, and re-use and recycle almost everything I can. In my consumer lifetime (I'm 42) I've bought 2 new cars (both Toyotas) and both are still on the road (current one is my Taco). I consider my personal footprint pretty small.

[Jonathan Hanson]

and I have to go through restaurant drive-thru's in reverse...

Oh God, I'd love to see the looks on the drive-thru kids' faces . . .

Back to my nomination: If a 2H (non-turbo straight-six) can get 26mpg in an HJ, I think it could do 30 in an FJ60, which already has 3.70 gears. Add a five-speed and who knows? There are also more modern diesel engines available from overseas Toyotas.

A diesel FJ60: quiet helical transfer-case gears, low wind noise, huge cargo capacity, room for a 40-gallon fuel tank, Toyota reliability, and 30mpg. Ready for Arizona, Labrador, or the Sahara. Why is Roseann even considering anything else?

[66Landy]

200097870044 is the ebay auction number. It is an '84 Land Cruiser with a diesel already installed. I don't know the auctioner or the quality, and only post it here as a "look what I saw" reference. It may however, solve most of your problems, and it is just over $12,000, which if I recall, is your goal, right?

[dieselcruiserhead]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&viewitem=&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2F20009787004 4_W0QQfrppZ50QQfsopZ1QQmaxrecordsreturnedZ300QQfvi Z1&item=200097870044

[Robthebrit]

If you are going to make bio diesel yourself the chances of recovering costs are very good, I have made a few batches of bio for 50c a gallon but I have to make a really big batch. You also get better mileage on bio than regular diesel and this is especially true when compared to the new ultra low sulphur diesel. Something that gets 26-27mpg on ULSD may well get 30mpg on bio.

In general for an eco vehicle, is target milage the best way to look at the problem? Is the carbon footprint a better way to look at things? If you make your own fuel the carbon foot print is better and the emmisions are better than dino diesel and therefore does it matter as much about mpg?

The efficiency of a diesel is more related to how you drive it. Ideally you want to drive at peak torque which for my cummins is 1700rpm which puts me at a comortable 62mph. The same theory applies in a gas engine but the peak torque is so high that when driving at it your speed is also high and therefore air resistance fouls things up (high rpm and high torque mean high power). In my dodge, driving at 62mph speed gives around 25mpg on regular freeways, mountain roads will drop it lower, if I drive at 70mph on the freeway I am down to 21, 75 down to 18. The lower milage is due to the reduction is torque and the increased air resistance.

You should look at the engine characteristics and consider how you drive and what speed you drive at. If you perform a diesel swap but then have to go everywhere at redline because of the lower rpm in the diesel you will not see the higher mpg, my little mog gets better milage around town than it does on the freeway for this very reason. You also have to question how reliable are none industrial diesel engines when sitting on the limiter for hours and hours.

Nothing more than my ramblings...

Rob

[Christian P.]

200097870044 is the ebay auction number. It is an '84 Land Cruiser with a diesel already installed. I don't know the auctioner or the quality, and only post it here as a "look what I saw" reference. It may however, solve most of your problems, and it is just over $12,000, which if I recall, is your goal, right?


this one looks really clean - especially for a Land Cruiser from Quebec (where I am from...) .

But I had one of these before. Don't even think about it unless you live in Texas and don't want to drive over 55 mph. The performance of the BJ60 with a 4 cylinder is probably closer to a John Deer tractor than anything else.

If you have to have one, get a BJ60 1986+ with the 6 cylinder and 5 speed. I believe it's the 2H with H55F tranny, the same thing as my TroopCarrier. It's not a race car, but it's decent if you're not in a hurry.

[Christian P.]

what about a Jeep Liberty CRD? it has all of your criteria, except the price...but you can finance the balance for cheap, and I don't think they depreciate much.

I have not made the calculations, but you would probably save enough on fuel to cover the interest and portion of the monthly payment if you drive a lot.


Christian
www.2aroundtheworld.com

[wd40]

Who did you use to import the HJ47? I am seriously considering that route, too - but a slightly more comfy model (we already have 2 of the "I'm pedalling as fast as I can" on the highway Cruiser and Rover).

Have you looked into alternative fuels? The GoldenFuels SVO system is interesting in that you don't have to refine your own fuel, it burns in situ - foraging for used oil from fast-food joints would be interesting for sure!

Can't wait to see that amazing JH!

(I'm still laughing over the drive-thru-backwards crack - we should do that and videotape it! We can bring Grendel and all do it!)

I'll dig up and pass along the info of the guy I used for the HJ47.

The HJ47's were discontinued in '84, and replaced by more comfortable later series troopies. Those won't be legally importable into the US for a couple more years. The importer indicated that the US rule was recently changed to 21 years from 25. I checked with Arizona, and they are still holding fast at 25 years.

I've looked at a variety of the WVO systems for the troopie. There is a ton of space for it and it would be an easy install. Plus, I may add an old diesel Mercedes to the fleet at some point. The most difficult part of WVO is filtration and and water separation. Get the bits of fry and chicken wing out...

When I had to take the troopie for emissions testing, thay have one of those gates where you push the button, take the ticket, and the gate goes up. They gate kept coming down before I could get back in the truck and drive through. I was getting ready to turn around and back in, when someone came to push the button for me.

BTW, this thing passed with an opacity rating less than 5%, which is 1/6th the limit for its age. I run biodiesel in it most of the time right now.

[wd40]

Oh God, I'd love to see the looks on the drive-thru kids' faces . . .

Back to my nomination: If a 2H (non-turbo straight-six) can get 26mpg in an HJ, I think it could do 30 in an FJ60, which already has 3.70 gears. Add a five-speed and who knows? There are also more modern diesel engines available from overseas Toyotas.

A diesel FJ60: quiet helical transfer-case gears, low wind noise, huge cargo capacity, room for a 40-gallon fuel tank, Toyota reliability, and 30mpg. Ready for Arizona, Labrador, or the Sahara. Why is Roseann even considering anything else?

Hey, Jonathan, As you know, the FJ60's can be found around here on the cheap. I saw one a couple months ago on Craigslist for $1500. Body was straight but the engine was fried... Perfect swap candidate... It's my understanding that the 2H and the F have the same output shaft and mate up to the transfercase and H55 without much issue. Just need the engine and mounts. I believe the B engines have a different output shaft, so there would be some changes if you went that route. There are a number of importers bringing in decent, later Toyota diesels, and they already have turbos.

I still prefer the simplicity of the 2H without all of the electronic stuff. My troopie came with a hand crank... No kidding...

[ChuckB]

I'll dig up and pass along the info of the guy I used for the HJ47.



I would be interested in this info as well!!

[wd40]

what about a Jeep Liberty CRD?

I looked at the Liberty and really wanted to give it a chance... I don't think Chrysler really committed to the platform. They used an Italian CRD rather than implementing one of their nice Mercedes diesel engines. The tuning was horrible... They have no scoot for passing on the freeway and the fuel economy is not that great...

I wish Chrysler or an aftermarket company would add a 4x4 kit to the Sprinter. You'd have some peoples attention then!

[Robthebrit]

4x4 sprinters (from the factory) are common in europe, I also wish they would import them here.

[Christian P.]

I still prefer the simplicity of the 2H without all of the electronic stuff. My troopie came with a hand crank... No kidding...

mine too, although I have no clue who could turn the crank...

When I was driving up in Cape York, the relay for the electric motor which shuts off the injection pumps started acting up, causing the pump to turn off from time to time...kind of annoying on the trail. I just disconnected the wire at the motor, and voila, we were able to drive all the way up to Cape York. Only problem, i could not stop the engine without stalling it in third gear...

there is absolutely no electronic components, everything is mechanical.
You can't beat that in the water...

[Christian P.]

4x4 sprinters (from the factory) are common in europe, I also wish they would import them here.

I saw a few of these Sprinters 4x4 in Australia. I would not get too excited. They are more like All Wheel Drive than true 4x4. The clearance was almost non-existent, and the front CV joints looked rather small to me.

On the pictures I saw from Germany, they seem to have some sort of lift kits , but the ones I saw in person were rather low. They are mostly designed for snowy condition in Austria that true off road - much like a Dodge Caravan all wheel drive.

Christian
www.2aroundtheworld.com

[muchosdiaz]

Another option to consider for an environmentally friendly vehicle would be an FJ60 converted to propane. There are several 60 owners on IH8MUD that have done this with good results for reasonable amounts of money. Some power is lost, but propane is a very clean burning fuel.

As for sprinters with the 4wd conversion Sportsmobile was going to import the parts to do the conversion, but Daimler-Chrysler gave them hints that the factory 4wd sprinter might be here in 2008 so Sportsmobile discontinued there conversion plans.

[DesertRose]

Another option to consider for an environmentally friendly vehicle would be an FJ60 converted to propane. There are several 60 owners on IH8MUD that have done this with good results for reasonable amounts of money. Some power is lost, but propane is a very clean burning fuel.

As for sprinters with the 4wd conversion Sportsmobile was going to import the parts to do the conversion, but Daimler-Chrysler gave them hints that the factory 4wd sprinter might be here in 2008 so Sportsmobile discontinued there conversion plans.

Welcome to ExPo posting, Muchosdiaz (love your screen name). Great information, too -

I laughed about lost power for the FJ60, though - just having driven one, I can't imagine any less power :orngartis

I'm still leaning toward diesel, for the reason that the mileage is good and there is the possibility of running biodiesel - but I'll (urk!) go over to IH8MUD to see if I can find the propane information. [It's a scary proposition for a woman to venture into that forum unarmed :ar15: ]

I'm a Toyota girl at heart, so any FJ conversion makes me happy. But I have to admit a Disco diesel would really by nice. Love the suspension, and frankly I could find a blown-engine Disco cheaper than a Cruiser 80 . . . or a 60 - those things just run for-ever.

This is fun, and tough, too! That's what makes it worthwhile.

[Kermit]

Too bad, those diesel conversions cost so much. It would nice to have one in my Tacoma.

[DesertRose]

I looked at the Liberty and really wanted to give it a chance... I don't think Chrysler really committed to the platform. They used an Italian CRD rather than implementing one of their nice Mercedes diesel engines. The tuning was horrible... They have no scoot for passing on the freeway and the fuel economy is not that great...

I wish Chrysler or an aftermarket company would add a 4x4 kit to the Sprinter. You'd have some peoples attention then!

I did look hard at the Liberty, and even found one already converted to GoldenFuel Systems (veg oil) for $19,000 and thought, well, I could possibly finance $6K, but I don't want to (we are paying off some big unexpected medical bills and otherwise have no debt at all - no mortgage, no other car payments - I know, un-American, isn't it?).

[ChuckB]

- but I'll (urk!) go over to IH8MUD to see if I can find the propane information. [It's a scary proposition for a woman to venture into that forum unarmed :ar15: ]



ah c'mon, its not that bad. :chowtime:

[Jonathan Hanson]

Well, I just talked myself out of the Discovery diesel conversion with a revisit to East Coast Rover's article on their own conversion. There's a five-speed Disco I for sale in Tucson right now and we were planning to call and go drive it, but not anymore.

The R380 five-speed transmission that comes with the V8 is different than the R380 that comes on the diesel. So in addition to the engine cost you have to replace the transmission. And even then the conversion is insanely involved. Just not practical or economical for us, even given a really cheap donor vehicle. Damn.

Personally I'm back to the FJ60 and 2H/five-speed idea. Simple, economical, bombproof.

But Roseann is now thinking about a Honda Insight hybrid with a solid axle swap and Mud Terrains. Or something like that; I'm losing track.

[DesertRose]

But Roseann is now thinking about a Honda Insight hybrid with a solid axle swap and Mud Terrains. Or something like that; I'm losing track.

:shakin:




Personally I'm back to the FJ60 and 2H/five-speed idea. Simple, economical, bombproof.

We're getting there - all you diesel guys out there - dieselcruiserhead, robthebrit, wd40 - you seem particularly conversant on biodiesel realities and on SVO/WVO. On the Biodiesel - I'm not interested in supporting problem-transference, that is, thinking I'm making a difference environmentally by choosing biodiesel over dino-diesel. [Biodiesel produced on a big scale, such as in Brazil and Argentina, is a big threat to biodiversity (including heritage crops) and cultural diversity (including small-share farms). I work in third-world community-based conservation, in Africa, and I just can't see that this would work for me and my reasons for swapping.]

So is it possible to find sustainably produced biodiesel, or make your own?

I have access to a decent, straight 4-speed manual FJ60 in my favorite desert tan - a diesel conversion would be awesome. If I can talk the owner into around $2500, I think it might be do-able.

[Robthebrit]

I only make my own biodiesel, I have never bought a drop as its difficult to know its origin. There is way too much forest being destroyed in order to grow palms for palm oil which ideal for bio-diesel, if I'm on the road I buy dino-diesel. I haven't made that much bio at the moment, I am still in the learning phase and trying to get the blend perfect every time. Once I get good at it I'll scale up to something like 50 gallon batches, then I'll make a batch while I used a batch. At the moment I have only put what I made in the mog, I m a little scared to put it in the dodge, the mog is way more forgiving.

I also considered veg oil but to the multi fuel/multi tank switching and heaters etc there are lots of other things to consider. Virgin oil is too expensive and nobody makes none food grade cooking oil. To use waste oil you really have to know the history of the oil. If it has a high water content and that water is not removed the water explosively boils when placed under extreme pressure in the injection pump and it can cause problems with corrosion and pitting on the plungers or plunger cylinders. Ultimately this will lead to injection pump failure or significant power loss, new vehicles may have more problems here due to the much higher injection pressures in a common rail system.

I can post more info on making biodiesel if you are interested along with the tanks and pumps that I use, where I got them etc, finding used oil was really easy. My current costs are currently 50-70c a gallon for processed diesel which makes me feel better about the 14mpg the mog gets.

Rob

[Colorado Ron]

Ill sell you my sons skate board and a sheet to make a sail out of. $20 and your good to go. Might wanna invest in a helmet.:smiley_drive:

[DesertRose]

Ill sell you my sons skate board and a sheet to make a sail out of. $20 and your good to go. Might wanna invest in a helmet.:smiley_drive:

But where does the Engel go?

[DesertRose]

I only make my own biodiesel, I have never bought a drop as its difficult to know its origin. There is way too much forest being destroyed in order to grow palms for palm oil which ideal for bio-diesel, if I'm on the road I buy dino-diesel. I haven't made that much bio at the moment, I am still in the learning phase and trying to get the blend perfect every time. Once I get good at it I'll scale up to something like 50 gallon batches, then I'll make a batch while I used a batch. At the moment I have only put what I made in the mog, I m a little scared to put it in the dodge, the mog is way more forgiving.

I also considered veg oil but to the multi fuel/multi tank switching and heaters etc there are lots of other things to consider. Virgin oil is too expensive and nobody makes none food grade cooking oil. To use waste oil you really have to know the history of the oil. If it has a high water content and that water is not removed the water explosively boils when placed under extreme pressure in the injection pump and it can cause problems with corrosion and pitting on the plungers or plunger cylinders. Ultimately this will lead to injection pump failure or significant power loss, new vehicles may have more problems here due to the much higher injection pressures in a common rail system.

I can post more info on making biodiesel if you are interested along with the tanks and pumps that I use, where I got them etc, finding used oil was really easy. My current costs are currently 50-70c a gallon for processed diesel which makes me feel better about the 14mpg the mog gets.

Rob

Thanks, Rob - I have been perusing links found on dieselcruiserhead's signature and understand the process and am interested but dubious - seems very labor-intensive. I don't have any objection to that but want to know what I'd be getting into.

What do you use for base oil for making your own biodiesel? What do you do with the glycerin?

[Colorado Ron]

But where does the Engel go?
Ok--I also sell you a camelback......with ice.

[Robthebrit]

Thanks, Rob - I have been perusing links found on dieselcruiserhead's signature and understand the process and am interested but dubious - seems very labor-intensive. I don't have any objection to that but want to know what I'd be getting into.

What do you use for base oil for making your own biodiesel? What do you do with the glycerin?

I get the oil from a friend who supplies donuts to starbucks, his California bakery is near LA so I drive over and get it from him. For my initial tests, I started with virgin oil and then I progressed to oil that I had used myself and then on to his commercial oil. Used oil really does make a difference to the chemistry. From what I can tell always getting the oil from the same place helps to keep things consistent. You still have to do the tests for water content etc but you can take a good guess as to how much of the supply chemicals you will use for a batch.

The glycerin is a problem for an individual, the bigger co-ops have outlets for it - the cosmetic indutry of all places. To find a commercial outlet it needs to be refined and the equipment to do so is out of reach for an individual but some of the co-ops will take it from you. If you seach the bio-diesel forums you can usually find somebody willing to take it.

The glycerin makes a fantastic biodegradable degreaser, you can use a fair amount that way. For a larger quantities on the order of a few 5 gallon buckets, in Los Angeles at least, you can take it to the public Haz Mat drop off.

There is some manual labour but when you get setup with the tanks and filters its really not that much work. My concern is the fire hazard, the oil and biodiesel don't readily burn but methonal does and it burns hot enough to get the oil burning. There are also the issues with methonal being toxic to humans.

Rob

[mountainpete]

FYI: Diesel Tacoma for sale...

http://www.tacomaterritory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65937

[jeffryscott]

And a diesel Suzuki:

http://denver.craigslist.org/car/299891058.html

[wd40]

We're getting there - all you diesel guys out there - dieselcruiserhead, robthebrit, wd40 - you seem particularly conversant on biodiesel realities and on SVO/WVO. On the Biodiesel - I'm not interested in supporting problem-transference, that is, thinking I'm making a difference environmentally by choosing biodiesel over dino-diesel. [Biodiesel produced on a big scale, such as in Brazil and Argentina, is a big threat to biodiversity (including heritage crops) and cultural diversity (including small-share farms). I work in third-world community-based conservation, in Africa, and I just can't see that this would work for me and my reasons for swapping.]

So is it possible to find sustainably produced biodiesel, or make your own?

I have access to a decent, straight 4-speed manual FJ60 in my favorite desert tan - a diesel conversion would be awesome. If I can talk the owner into around $2500, I think it might be do-able.

I have found the few retailers of biodiesel in Arizona (that saddly I can count on one hand... even if I was a shop teacher that lost a couple fingers) are very good at providing information regarding the source of their biodiesel. Most commercial biodiesel customers are paying more than regular diesel and are pretty savy about the politics of the stuff. Western States in Phoenix buys from Blue Sun, which uses domestic agriculture products for their biodiesel.

http://www.gobluesun.com/

Since I don't want to modify my Jetta, I run commercial biodiesel. However, I have found the diesel HJ47 is the ideal candidate for running WVO directly. The cavernous cargo area coupled with heater lines run in for the rear heater is perfect. I also have a friend who is very involved in environmental politics... and owns 10 Denny's restaurants...

I'm looking for a Mercedes Diesel to use as a guinea pig, since most of the WVO info surrounds that platform. If I get the car and parts dialed in, maybe you guys could come up for a diesel conversion party :Mechanic: :)

[Redline]

Very cool, and the swap is already done.


FYI: Diesel Tacoma for sale...

http://www.tacomaterritory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65937

[DesertRose]

Very cool, and the swap is already done.

Definitely cool . . . but for me the Taco doesn't have all the criteria I'm after . . . I know, picky picky.

[DesertRose]

Please go to This Thread (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=69333#post69333) for the final chapter!

Thank you for all your input!